Ways to Make an Enemy Immobile with No Save

[ATHATH]

What feats, magic items, spells, etc. can make an enemy unable to move from its square (but not necessarily incapacitated)? I'd prefer an effect that offers no save (an attack roll is fine), but I'll take one if I have to.

EDIT: This is for 3.5, btw.

[Doctor Despair]

I mean, Forcecage is the classic

[AvatarVecna]

Imerious Command is a feat that stjcks a cowering effect on successful Intimidate usage, which is skill vs DC, so no save. Problem is that it's a fear effect, so fear immunity (or mind-affecting immunity) keeps it from affecting the target.

[Galacktic]

Optical Spell and Sandblast

[Necroticplague]

Wall of Stone’s reflex save is only if you, say, try and trap them within a wall. There isn’t a save if you simply make a nice 5x5x5 box to keep them in.

[Thurbane]

Stone Vise strike (Crusader 2, Swordsage 2, Warblade 2)
Entangling Blade strike (Crusader 4, only if opponent's move is 20 feet or less)
Overwhelming Mountain Strike (?) (Crusader 4, Swordsage 4, Warblade 4)
Crushing Vise strike (Crusader 6, Swordsage 6, Warblade 6)

[Jormengand]

Reversed inertia surge (Truenamer 1). Suck it, every other type of spellcaster!

[emeraldstreak]

Feather token: whip.

[ATHATH]

Reversed inertia surge (Truenamer 1). Suck it, every other type of spellcaster!
This... This would actually work, especially since my planned build involves another low-tier class.

Thanks!

[Nifft]

Reverse gravity out in the open, with no ceiling.

Transmute rock to lava on the ceiling of a 10 ft. corridor (... which is somehow unworked stone).

[Jormengand]

This... This would actually work, especially since my planned build involves another low-tier class.

Thanks!

You might want to look at burning feats on truename training and minor utterance of the evolving mind rather than going into truenamer, if that's all you're after - it's a feat rather than a level, since you'll almost certainly be needing truename training anyway to make the checks.

[Lazymancer]

What feats, magic items, spells, etc. can make an enemy unable to move from its square (but not necessarily incapacitated)? I'd prefer an effect that offers no save (an attack roll is fine), but I'll take one if I have to.

EDIT: This is for 3.5, btw.
Ghoul Glyph (2nd-level spell) is situational, but gives no save paralysis for 1d6+2 rounds (Fort vs stench).

[Psyren]

Entangling Ectoplasm

[rel]

A few near immobilizers:
Solid fog
Spike stones

[Zaq]

Does grappling count?

[jmax]

Shapechange into a hollyphant and use the Trumpet supernatural ability. 60-ft cone, 2d10 sonic damage, stun for 2 rounds. There is a Fort save, but on a successful save the target still takes 1d10 sonic damage and, much more importantly, is still stunned for one round. Hollyphant can do this 3 times per day, so you can lock down a large number of enemies for 3 rounds, guaranteed unless they're immune to stunning.

I'm also fond of wall of thorns for locking down anything with <25 AC (not counting Dex and dodge bonuses). The strength check to get through it is ridiculous.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Entangling EctoplasmThat just entangles them, but unlike web it doesn't anchor them in place. -2 to attack rolls, -4 to Dex, and reduced speed isn't "immobile."

[Nifft]

Tongue Tendrils (Sorc/Wiz 1) Transmutation [Evil] - Spit out a long tendril which non-violently grapples a target and lashes itself to a nearby object, if possible. Evil because ... ugh ... non-consensual licking?

Touch attack and Grapple check, but no save.

[Zaq]

It might be pulling out a flamethrower to get rid of a dandelion, but enough DEX damage from Shivering Touch will definitely keep something from moving.

[Jormengand]

I suppose I should also note that Irresistible Spell (+4, KoKPG) takes the save off all your favourite lockdown spells (and while the book is official, the errata which makes it not do that isn't) as well. The spell irresistible dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) also does this. Amusingly, dance would be a fairly balanced spell for a sorcerer or wizard, and probably not too broken for a bard.

[Nifft]

It might be pulling out a flamethrower to get rid of a dandelion, but enough DEX damage from Shivering Touch will definitely keep something from moving.

Ooo, nice.

Ray of Stupidity is a spell in the same vein.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It might be pulling out a flamethrower to get rid of a dandelion, but enough DEX damage from Shivering Touch will definitely keep something from moving.And what makes shivering touch even more broken is the fact that it makes your touch attacks deal Dex damage for every round during its duration.

[ATHATH]

And what makes shivering touch even more broken is the fact that it makes your touch attacks deal Dex damage for every round during its duration.
Wot.

You mean it works like Chill Touch and the like? You can just be a Wizard with some levels in a Full BAB PrC and a Monk('s?) Belt and lace your unarmed full attacks with loads of DEX damage? Can you Persist it?

What were they smoking when they made that spell?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wot.

You mean it works like Chill Touch and the like? You can just be a Wizard with some levels in a Full BAB PrC and a Monk('s?) Belt and lace your unarmed full attacks with loads of DEX damage? Can you Persist it?

What were they smoking when they made that spell?Yes, yes, yes, and I have no idea. Maybe they were thinking that the Dex damage would only last that long? Except, that's not how ability damage works. It's permanent until healed (including via rest), just like hp damage. Unfortunately, the only way the spell makes sense is if it works as I described above, so even if they meant for the Dex damage to only last for that duration, that's not how it ended up working at all. If that was the case, they should've made it a stacking Dex penalty.

Alas.

[Nifft]

Yes, yes, yes, and I have no idea. Maybe they were thinking that the Dex damage would only last that long? Except, that's not how ability damage works. It's permanent until healed (including via rest), just like hp damage. Unfortunately, the only way the spell makes sense is if it works as I described above, so even if they meant for the Dex damage to only last for that duration, that's not how it ended up working at all. If that was the case, they should've made it a stacking Dex penalty.

Alas.

There's an even worse reading for lesser shivering touch.

Here's the spell text:



Your successful melee touch attack delivers a bitter chill to the target, causing it to shiver uncontrollably for the duration of the spell.

Shivering characters take 1d6 points of Dexterity damage.


So, for up to 1/level rounds, every creature you touch is "shivering", and "shivering" creatures each take 1d6 Dexterity damage for the duration.

How often does this repeating Dexterity damage happen to the "shivering" creature?

It is not known.

A reasonable assumption is that the repeating damage happens on your action. But maybe it happen on everybody's action. Who can say?

(Certainly not the writers of Frostburn.)

[Jormengand]

How often does this repeating Dexterity damage happen to the "shivering" creature?

It is not known.

A reasonable assumption is that the repeating damage happens on your action. But maybe it happen on everybody's action. Who can say?

(Certainly not the writers of Frostburn.)

Damage with a duration is weird (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20463540&postcount=431).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Entangling Breath work if they are not immune.

[Nifft]

Damage with a duration is weird (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20463540&postcount=431). Heh, good points.


Entangling Breath work if they are not immune.

Did you mean Entangling Exhalation from RotDr?

If so, then no it does not work. Perhaps you're getting confused because the entangle spell does immobilize creatures, but the Entangled condition does not immobilize creatures.

If not, then what do you mean? I'm not finding "Entangling Breath" anywhere.

[Darrin]

Weaponized drugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15609066&postcount=13). Essentially, you can force an overdose condition by stabbing/exposing a target to multiple doses of either Kammarth or Mushroom Powder. The overdose condition for either of these involves paralysis, and there's no save to avoid it.

[Crake]

Wall of Stone’s reflex save is only if you, say, try and trap them within a wall. There isn’t a save if you simply make a nice 5x5x5 box to keep them in.

Can you explain to me how you think that isn't trapping them within the wall?


It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

Making a 5x5x5 box is most certainly "shaped so it can hold the creatures"

[Necroticplague]

Can you explain to me how you think that isn't trapping them within the wall? They aren't inside the wall itself, they're inside an empty space. The Reflex save is for if try and do something like make a set of stone stocks around someone. This stone cell is still entirely them being outside of the wall.

[Nifft]

Can you explain to me how you think that isn't trapping them within the wall? They aren't inside the wall itself, they're inside an empty space. The Reflex save is for if try and do something like make a set of stone stocks around someone. This stone cell is still entirely them being outside of the wall.

The distinction I'd make is:
- Inside the wall = intersected by the wall.
- Under the wall = within a hemisphere.

Making a non-hemisphere box which joins with a pre-existing ceiling would not allow a save.

That said, I'd also require that the wall be out of reach from the target, or the target could force you to make the wall intersect the target, and that would in turn allow it a saving throw to avoid entrapment.

[Crake]

They aren't inside the wall itself, they're inside an empty space. The Reflex save is for if try and do something like make a set of stone stocks around someone. This stone cell is still entirely them being outside of the wall.

That is explicitly not possible:


The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

If you are trying to contain the creature within the wall, they get a save to avoid being trapped, simple as that. I'd probably agree with nifft that they would only get a save if they're within 5ft of the wall, as they don't have time to make the distance otherwise, but that is a house rule, and not raw. Trying to contain a medium creature even in a 15x15x15ft cell would entail a reflex save by RAW.

[emeraldstreak]

Wot.

You mean it works like Chill Touch and the like? You can just be a Wizard with some levels in a Full BAB PrC and a Monk('s?) Belt and lace your unarmed full attacks with loads of DEX damage? Can you Persist it?

What were they smoking when they made that spell?

Whatever they were smoking was good.

But I was under the impression you were actively avoiding ability damage as a way to incapacitate. Doing ability damage can be very OP because monsters/enemies aren't really statted to resist it in accordance to their CR. Ray of Stupidity can take out any animal. A boosted Ego Whip does short work of any brute. Damage to strength is the bane of casters, as the participants in the first Casters v Everything learned upon meeting Shadows. Touch-delivered damage to dexterity can be devastating against all these monsters that go big on hp, natural armor, strength, but hover around 10 dexterity. Shivering Touch was already mentioned, I'll add Touch of Golden Ice (a feat for Good alignment) which is a ravage - a poison that targets evil and ignores immunity - and so is devastating against all those poor Fort undead.

[Mato]

You mean it works like Chill Touch and the like?That is what he says.

Targets: Creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

Target: Creature touched
{lack of the word each or any text saying you can use it multiple times}
But some people have problems understanding simple things so they add complexity to it. What's important is you don't continue to make past mistakes and run with a complete fabrication as fact else where.

Kind of like the linked post in this thread, where someone reads a spell that says it deals X so they say it deals X2 because they thinks it has an action or turn in initiative and when you use an immediate/ready action everything before it gets duplicated because bull's strength constantly provides a consent +4 bonus. :smallsigh:

[Jormengand]

I'm not sure exactly what the above post is trying to say, but the important part is that because chill touch has duration instantaneous, all the touch attacks are made immediately at full BAB, much like scorching rays, according to the rules compendium text on weaponlike spells.

Damage with a duration is also nothing to do with spells "Getting turns" so much as them being general truths about what is occurring for the duration.

[jmax]

Wot.

You mean it works like Chill Touch and the like? You can just be a Wizard with some levels in a Full BAB PrC and a Monk('s?) Belt and lace your unarmed full attacks with loads of DEX damage? Can you Persist it?

What were they smoking when they made that spell?


Whatever they were smoking was good.

There are quite a few b0rked spells in Frostburn that don't make sense in the context of the game mechanics. Off the top of my head, blizzard comes to mind - Long range (400+40/CL feet), but a 100-ft/CL radius. 5th-level full-caster spell, so minimum caster level is 9. There is no scenario in which you can fit the full area inside the range, and you will always be inside the area of effect. (By RAW, any area outside the range is nullified.) It also drops one foot of snow per round (two inches per second), which roughly translates to 14000 lbs per 5-ft square at minimum caster level (collapsing all but the sturdiest non-fortified buildings in most medieval settings) and functionally buries creatures up to Large size with no save. A fantastic spell, and probably not the effect that the authors intended. I know there are a few others, but I can't remember off the top of my head. By rules as written, it just blocks all sight, extinguishes fires, and impedes movement as through a snow field... but it impedes movement so much that there's none of it quite quickly.

There is a reasonable Dex-damage spell that you can use (freezing sphere, also from Frostburn). It does allow a Reflex save to negate the Dex damage, but it lasts 1 round/level and has a shot at the Dex damage every round. If you're targeting Dex to try to immobilize a target, they probably don't have very good Reflex saves anyway.

Actually, on that note, blizzard fits what you want perfectly - not just immobilize one enemy with no save, but all of them! Have fun! Be sure you have a way out for yourself :smallbiggrin:

(Granted, it does take a few rounds, but they have to run a good ways to try to escape if you center the effect on them - and their movement is hampered by all that that pesky snow.)

[Mato]

I'm not sure exactly what the above post is trying to say,It says you misspelled "rule book" in that sentence.


There are quite a few b0rked spells in Frostburn that don't make sense in the context of the game mechanics. Off the top of my head, blizzard comes to mind - Long range (400+40/CL feet), but a 100-ft/CL radius. 5th-level full-caster spell, so minimum caster level is 9. There is no scenario in which you can fit the full area inside the range, and you will always be inside the area of effect.Blizzard is a spread which means it twists and fills open spaces making it capable of blowing in an opening and flooding the floor of a house or castle and that can rapidly consume it's area (like having to shovel snow out of an open carport, a roof only helps a little). But if it were a burst or emanation, you could stand behind a tree and not get hit by anything and rather unrealistically stand on bare ground with a perfect line of nine foot high snow to either side and that just doesn't make sense in any sort of mechanic or flavor. So it's a spread with a high area so it can fill almost everything inside of it's 760ft range.

[Jormengand]

It says you misspelled "rule book" in that sentence.

No, I'm certain of what the rule book says. However, your post contains so much wholesale butchery of the language that it's meant to be written in that I cannot actually discern anything of your objection far beyond the fact that it is unfathomably foolish.

[jmax]

Blizzard is a spread which means it twists and fills open spaces making it capable of blowing in an opening and flooding the floor of a house or castle and that can rapidly consume it's area (like having to shovel snow out of an open carport, a roof only helps a little). But if it were a burst or emanation, you could stand behind a tree and not get hit by anything and rather unrealistically stand on bare ground with a perfect line of nine foot high snow to either side and that just doesn't make sense in any sort of mechanic or flavor. So it's a spread with a high area so it can fill almost everything inside of it's 760ft range.

Hmm, that's a really interesting and insightful point. I had never considered that angle. That actually makes it considerably more potent, because it (technically) guarantees that even the slightest bit of open space causes everything inside to be affected, no matter how deep, until the spell runs out of area. On the one hand, that does prevent it from collapsing most roofs because the snow inside will bear the weight - but on the other hand that also makes it insanely devastating to anything inside a mostly-closed structure because it just destroys any concept of shelter. Stay inside? BAM! You're part of a giant ice cube, period.

It does raise the interesting question "From whence doth the snow fall?" If you interpret it in its most literal mechanical sense, it's like giant, self-propagating mass of snowy tentacle-pipes forcing their way through every opening to deposit more of themselves, and the snow isn't necessarily falling down. That's a little bit silly, although also terrifying.

I still think it's at least equally likely that whoever wrote the spell goofed and meant to set the range equal to the area (as with control winds), but that's definitely a valid (and scary) interpretation. Both groups I play with use house-rule it such that the range just limits where you set the point of origin without the silliness that a fireball dropped at maximum range becomes a gibbous. In the future, when I use the spell, I'll probably suggest the more reasonable interpretation that it goes through open windows and such exactly like a blizzard does, encroaching on interior spaces proportionally to the size of the opening but not actually expanding to fill every available space. Although it's really funny to think about it the most literal way, so kudos for opening my eyes to it.

Also this:
https://images.essentialtravel.co.uk/blog/snow-car-final.jpg
Source: https://www.essentialtravel.co.uk/blog/open-car-windows/

[Mato]

No, I'm certain of what the rule book says. However, your post contains so much wholesale butchery of the language that it's meant to be written in that I cannot actually discern anything of your objection far beyond the fact that it is unfathomably foolish.I accept your unintentional apology for wasting everyone's time involved.


Although it's really funny to think about it the most literal way, so kudos for opening my eyes to it.Your welcome.

[Doctor Despair]

I suppose I should also note that Irresistible Spell (+4, KoKPG) takes the save off all your favourite lockdown spells (and while the book is official, the errata which makes it not do that isn't) as well. The spell irresistible dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) also does this. Amusingly, dance would be a fairly balanced spell for a sorcerer or wizard, and probably not too broken for a bard.

Wait, it's official? I thought it was entirely third party and so not admissible by RAW, errata or no?

[Crake]

Wait, it's official? I thought it was entirely third party and so not admissible by RAW, errata or no?

kingdoms of kalamar is second party i believe, lisenced by wizards of the coast, hence why it bears the official dnd logo on it, but it's not actually wizards first party material, which is why most people dismiss it.

[ATHATH]

Mato and Jormengand, can you please take this somewhere else (perhaps a new thread?)?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to second Wall of Thorns, it's available from 1st level with Greenbound Summoning and Summon Nature's Ally I. You can shape it to go around corners and only affect the opponents' squares. It lasts ten minutes per level so it can easily outlast an encounter (or if cast by a summoned creature it ends when the summoning duration expires). It's a huge pain to destroy without dispelling it, you can't necessarily Iron Heart Surge it, and it can take a creature several full-round actions to escape it.

[eggynack]

Both death by thorns, a corrupt spell, and constricting chains, a sanctified spell, immobilize the target without a save. Kelpstrand also lacks a save, though it does require a touch attack and a grapple check, and, technically speaking, I suppose summoning a bear next to an opponent in order to grapple said opponent has the same sort of general nature.

[Necroticplague]

If you are trying to contain the creature within the wall, they get a save to avoid being trapped, simple as that. I'd probably agree with nifft that they would only get a save if they're within 5ft of the wall, as they don't have time to make the distance otherwise, but that is a house rule, and not raw. Trying to contain a medium creature even in a 15x15x15ft cell would entail a reflex save by RAW.
Which raises the question: what happens when they succeed the REF save? It doesn't say that a successful save allows them to move so....they'd be not entrapped, but in the same space;which would happen to still be in the closed-off area....

[jmax]

Which raises the question: what happens when they succeed the REF save? It doesn't say that a successful save allows them to move so....they'd be not entrapped, but in the same space;which would happen to still be in the closed-off area....

One of the great mysteries of Dungeons & Dragons! In general, what happens when you make a Reflex save is not well-documented. When you wiggle out of half of that fireball damage, are you really in the same place as you started? Or is it because you dive out of the way of the worst of the blast, tucking into a roll and coming to your feet? I've always thought this was a bit silly... although, now that I think about it, I suppose a (non-Evasion) Reflex save against a fireball could just be turning your body so your narrowest profile is exposed to the center of the blast. But then you'd think you get a 50% chance to be facing that way anyway, and everything gets super complicated quite quickly.

I'd be inclined to let the player choose between perching on the wall (if it doesn't go all the way to the ceiling) and rolling a d8 (or d6 on a hex grid) to determine in which direction they try to dodge. Roll the dodge direction secretly. If the enclosing walls aren't a perfect square, some dodge directions might let them escape, while others still leave them inside the enclosure.

[rel]

Which raises the question: what happens when they succeed the REF save? It doesn't say that a successful save allows them to move so....they'd be not entrapped, but in the same space;which would happen to still be in the closed-off area....

Presumably they are moved out of the entrapping space since not moving them out of the area would leave them trapped.

[Calthropstu]

Time Stop technically achieves this effect.

[Jormengand]

I accept your unintentional apology for wasting everyone's time involved.

What? But nothing I said could even have been interpreted as...

Oh! Oh, I get it!

You don't understand what words mean, do you?

[ATHATH]

What? But nothing I said could even have been interpreted as...

Oh! Oh, I get it!

You don't understand what words mean, do you?
Again, could you two please take this argument/fight to another thread? This is your last warning before I call in a moderator.

[Kobold Esq]

Damage with a duration is weird (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20463540&postcount=431).

All this tells me is that rules lawyers need to learn from real lawyers, and look to canons of construction. A judge would laugh attorneys out of court if they tried to use some of those arguments on a statute that had never been tested yet.

[Jormengand]

All this tells me is that rules lawyers need to learn from real lawyers, and look to canons of construction. A judge would laugh attorneys out of court if they tried to use some of those arguments on a statute that had never been tested yet.

I mean, there are a lot of differences between D&D and a court of law, so there's that.

[Kobold Esq]

I mean, there are a lot of differences between D&D and a court of law, so there's that.

There are also a ton of similarities, when it comes to the interpretation of statutory language. At the end of the day you have a judge/DM in both cases who needs to make a ruling. Sometimes you have vaguely worded rules, or rules from different sources that are contradictory.

And in both realms you often have people who want to make extremely esoteric arguments that come to nonsensical conclusions, and you need a judge to say "No, that is clearly not what the legislature/writer meant to happen, so it isn't going to happen here."

[edathompson2]

Otto's Irrestible Dance and then no reflex saves.

[Jormengand]

There are also a ton of similarities, when it comes to the interpretation of statutory language. At the end of the day you have a judge/DM in both cases who needs to make a ruling. Sometimes you have vaguely worded rules, or rules from different sources that are contradictory.

And in both realms you often have people who want to make extremely esoteric arguments that come to nonsensical conclusions, and you need a judge to say "No, that is clearly not what the legislature/writer meant to happen, so it isn't going to happen here."

Yes, a real game has a DM. But it's also nice to know what the rules actually say, especially if you are a DM and are wondering when the hell in the round ice storm does damage because it's not clear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20463600&postcount=434) or what the hell a spell with instantaneous duration which lets you make attacks over the duration does or how much dexterity damage a shivering creature takes. In fact, precisely because the rules as written are sometimes absurd we know to look for something else.

[Braininthejar2]

If you use it in the right place, transmute rock to mud might hit all the spaces your enemies have available. Follow it with mud to rock, and the entire enemy party is now waist deep in the floor. (a reflex save does not apply if you can't actually reach a safe space)