Do you assign skills first or feats first when leveling up/in character generation?

[ATHATH]

If you assign skills first, does that mean that feats that give you class skills (like, say, Truename Training) won't let you assign 4 points at first level to the skill that they make a class skill, due to the skills being cross-class "before" you took the feat?

If you assign feats first, does that mean that feats that have skill prerequisites can't be taken at first level(,) because you haven't assigned your skill points yet (and thus don't have those skills yet)?

[Zaq]

PHB pp. 58-9 has the info you're looking for. You're allowed to break the order at level 1 (which is on pg. 6 rather than pp. 58-9), but at level 2 and later, you have to go in the order spelled out there (unless your GM fudges things). Which can make qualifying for things really obnoxious in certain cases, by the way.

Truename Training specifically solves its own problem by retroactively turning any half-points you spent on Truespeak into full points, but other feats that affect your skills technically don't work on the level you take them (except level 1). Doing otherwise is a common houserule (so common that many groups may not realize that it's a houserule, much like giving Monks proficiency in unarmed strikes), but if you follow a hyper-strict RAW-is-law mindset, then yeah, feats that affect skill points are obnoxious.

Unless I'm forgetting a mitigating factor somewhere (which is 100% possible), the really terrible part of following pp. 58-9 to the letter is that you technically cannot take a PrC that requires a certain feat at the same level that you take that feat. I've probably broken that rule myself dozens of times in dozens of builds, but yeah.

[Jormengand]

Unless I'm forgetting a mitigating factor somewhere (which is 100% possible), the really terrible part of following pp. 58-9 to the letter is that you technically cannot take a PrC that requires a certain feat at the same level that you take that feat. I've probably broken that rule myself dozens of times in dozens of builds, but yeah.

I always thought that needing the prerequisites of a class before taking that class was one of the least obnoxious things about the level-up order.

[Blue Jay]

PHB pp. 58-9 has the info you're looking for. You're allowed to break the order at level 1 (which is on pg. 6 rather than pp. 58-9), but at level 2 and later, you have to go in the order spelled out there (unless your GM fudges things). Which can make qualifying for things really obnoxious in certain cases, by the way.

I don't know: it's not actually stated anywhere that you have to follow a specific order when leveling up. The stuff on page 6 does say "follow these steps," so arguably there's a prescribed sequence for creating 1st-level characters. But, the stuff on p. 58-59 doesn't say that anywhere: it just says, "here is a list of things you have to do when you level up."

I mean, arguably the intention was for the numbered list to be treated like a series of steps, but that's not explicitly stated anywhere, and they don't use language like "once you've done X, then do Y," or "proceed to step Z," or "after you've done that." So, I think it's open for interpretation, honestly.

And frankly, enforcing a level-up order is just extra bookkeeping for the DM for the sake of hosing a player. I wouldn't enforce it, even if it was an official rule.

[Nifft]

I don't know: it's not actually stated anywhere that you have to follow a specific order when leveling up. The stuff on page 6 does say "follow these steps," so arguably there's a prescribed sequence for creating 1st-level characters. But, the stuff on p. 58-59 doesn't say that anywhere: it just says, "here is a list of things you have to do when you level up."

Even just a cursory glance proves this to be false.

Step 4 tells you that step 5 is "the next step", and tells you to finish calculations on step 4 before rolling for step 5.


https://i.imgur.com/CYgBeuY.png


Skills refer to the class list so the class must have been chosen before skills were assigned, for example.

There's an explicit ordering, and the steps don't actually make sense if you put them out of order.

Therefore, there's an order, and (shockingly) it's the order in which the steps are written.

[Blue Jay]

Even just a cursory glance proves this to be false.

Step 4 tells you that step 5 is "the next step", and tells you to finish calculations on step 4 before rolling for step 5.


https://i.imgur.com/CYgBeuY.png


Skills refer to the class list so the class must have been chosen before skills were assigned, for example.

There's an explicit ordering, and the steps don't actually make sense if you put them out of order.

Therefore, there's an order, and (shockingly) it's the order in which the steps are written.

Huh. I kind of wish there was a facepalm smiley for this site.

Maybe I'll just use this one: :sigh:

...and this one: :redface:

[Nifft]

Huh. I kind of wish there was a facepalm smiley for this site.

Maybe I'll just use this one: :sigh:

...and this one: :redface:

In your defense, the Feats step is on a different page, and contains none of that language.

So if you skipped straight to Feats then it'd be possible to miss the otherwise-obvious stuff that mandated the ordering.

[Blue Jay]

In your defense, the Feats step is on a different page, and contains none of that language.

So if you skipped straight to Feats then it'd be possible to miss the otherwise-obvious stuff that mandated the ordering.

Och! Hitting a man while he's down! Ouch!

I think we also need a "wincing" smiley of some sort.

My shame is great. :sigh:

[Nifft]

Och! Hitting a man while he's down! Ouch!

I think we also need a "wincing" smiley of some sort.

My shame is great. :sigh:

Oh. I had been trying to reduce your shame.

Sorry, I'll just stop.

[KillianHawkeye]

Huh. I kind of wish there was a facepalm smiley for this site.

I have also wished for this more than once. :smallwink:

[Remuko]

Me and all the people I tend to play with apply level ups in w/e way benefits us the most. We treat it all as one process and if doing one thing first would allow us to do something else during the same level up, we allow it.