[D&D 3.5] Epic Levels and BAB & Caster Level progression.

[TheRageee]

Hi guys. I'm not sure about some particular aspects of epic levels.

1) Does BAB increase fully and automatically, even if that class doesn't provide you the progression?
Example: War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook has no BAB progression, but I read that he still gets BAB from level 21.

2) If yes, does it work only with characters who have as "basic class" a class with full BAB?

3) Does Caster Level increase automatically as BAB does?
Example: if I grab the first level of Bone Knight at level 21, the 1st level only doesn't provide me a +1 spellcasting progression. Does it augment anyways?

[KillianHawkeye]

There is no BAB in epic levels, only the Epic Attack Bonus. BAB from whatever class you take at level 21 and beyond is ignored entirely, even in a weird case like War Hulk.

Caster level is different. It is still based entirely on the class, so if your class says you lose a caster level at certain levels (as many prestige classes do), then you don't gain a caster level.

[Buddy76]

Quoting the SRD to support what KillianHawkeye said:


Epic Attack Bonus
Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.


Class Features
(...)
Generally, any class feature that uses class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the character’s class level in the formula. Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the character’s class levels above 10th.

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

(...)


Here's the whole text, if you want to know more: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

[TheRageee]

There is no BAB in epic levels, only the Epic Attack Bonus. BAB from whatever class you take at level 21 and beyond is ignored entirely, even in a weird case like War Hulk.

Caster level is different. It is still based entirely on the class, so if your class says you lose a caster level at certain levels (as many prestige classes do), then you don't gain a caster level.

But, example:

I have a Mage 10 / Elemental Savant 10. BAB is 10. If I keep leveling as mage until level 30, do I gain a new attack when my attack bonus is 15? I mean, is it 15/10/5 or just 15/10? Sorry for the probably stupid question!

[Bronk]

But, example:

I have a Mage 10 / Elemental Savant 10. BAB is 10. If I keep leveling as mage until level 30, do I gain a new attack when my attack bonus is 15? I mean, is it 15/10/5 or just 15/10? Sorry for the probably stupid question!

No, you don't. Your Base attack bonus stays at +10, and you gain +5 Epic Attack Bonus. You only gain extra attacks from BAB.

For your question one from the first post, War Hulk doesn't gain any BAB to begin with, but it would continue to gain +2 strength with every level.

[Remuko]

No, you don't. Your Base attack bonus stays at +10, and you gain +5 Epic Attack Bonus. You only gain extra attacks from BAB.

For your question one from the first post, War Hulk doesn't gain any BAB to begin with, but it would continue to gain +2 strength with every level.

Warhulk for that reason is pretty bonkers in Epic levels because of that. Because you get the +2 str and the +1 Epic Attack Bonus every other level still.

[AvatarVecna]

Warhulk for that reason is pretty bonkers every so slightly more power than it otherwise would be in Epic levels because of that. Because you get the +2 str and the +1 Epic Attack Bonus every other level still.

Fixed that for you. Calling something in epic "pretty bonkers" is almost universally overselling it. :smalltongue:

[arkangel111]

it actually gets stupid in epic for more things than just epic spell casting... a level 40 character wizard20/fighter20 is worse than a fighter20/ wizard20, even if they took the exact same feats, and skills. realistically they should be identical but aren't.

[KillianHawkeye]

it actually gets stupid in epic for more things than just epic spell casting... a level 40 character wizard20/fighter20 is worse than a fighter20/ wizard20, even if they took the exact same feats, and skills. realistically they should be identical but aren't.

Actually, it's pretty realistic that they aren't identical. In real life, the skills that people develop later in their careers typically struggle to match up to the skills you learned early on.

Considering that there's technically no limit to how high you can go into epic levels, I agree that it's weird that certain characters can never earn that fourth attack, but nobody ever claimed that the rules made sense in every conceivable circumstance.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, it's pretty realistic that they aren't identical. In real life, the skills that people develop later in their careers typically struggle to match up to the skills you learned early on.

Considering that there's technically no limit to how high you can go into epic levels, I agree that it's weird that certain characters can never earn that fourth attack, but nobody ever claimed that the rules made sense in every conceivable circumstance.

Wizard can get full BAB as early as 11th lvl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm) for limited amounts of time (albeit without being able to cast other spells), or 13th lvl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) while still casting (via mimicking Divine Power). In fact, because of the wording of those spells, casting them in epic does you better than having 20 levels in a full BAB class to start out: Fighter 40 will have BAB +20/+15/+10/+5 and EAB +10 (for +30/+25/+20/+15 total from level), while Cleric or Wizard 40 casting/mimicking Divine Power CL 40 (or getting it via an item) will have BAB +40/+35/+30/+25 and EAB +10 (for +50/+45/+40/+35 total). Any character willing to spend 640000 gp can get a CL 16 Divine Power item, which will give the the basic four iteratives. Obviously not gonna be affordable for a while outside of item creation shenanigans, but definitely doable in low-epic.

EDIT: Of course, it's not exactly news that a Wizard or Cleric 10+ pushing more than a few spell-slots into self-buffing can outpace the fighter at his own schtick. >.<

[Vertharrad]

Actually tensers trans and divine power both cap at +20...the special edition black bound books provided errata for them.

[Gusmo]

ELH says you don't get additional iterative attacks for BAB +21 and higher anyway, so +16 is the sweet spot. The reason given is that this cuts down on spam of attacks that are unlikely to hit anyway, due to the -20 penalty on what would be the 5th attack, and so forth. Racial hit dice are cited in this same explanation as where you might encounter things with a BAB of +21 or higher.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually tensers trans and divine power both cap at +20...the special edition black bound books provided errata for them.

Ignoring how online communities take issue with errata and FAQs in general for inconsistency issues, and ignoring that this would only mean a caster with those spells was as good as a full BAB class, Reserves Of Strenth is still a thing. Even if you don't abide by the RAW reading for that spell and go purely by the obviously intended interpretation, RoS uncaps spells its applied to by 1-3 points. Regardless of interpretation, I'm thankful that the ELH clarified that even if you somehow have more than BAB +20, you still only get 4 iterative attacks total, since that would jist make things even worse.

Also, as long as we're on the subject of epic caster shenanigans that make noncasters feel sad, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Permanent Emanation (Consumptive Field).