Let's talk about Tenser's transformation spell.

[Throne12]

So the spell is a great spell for the gish types. But one this people are having trouble with is it gives prof in all armor but it only last 10 mins and donning heavy armor takes 10 mins. So here some questions.

1. How can we get armor on quicker or make the spell last longer?
2. What builds to y'all have that incorporates this spell.
3. Just any General thoughts or advice.


One build I'm thinking is v-human with tought war cleric2 adj wizard 18. I know it a bit mad. War cleric gives you the armor and weapons but one thing I wanted was the spell aid helps with hp. It also give a few extra attacks as bonus action. Then adj makes you even more tankier.

[DivisibleByZero]

You put the armor on.... and then you cast the spell later when combat begins...

[Puh Laden]

Contingency “when I’ve donned this heavy armor” or “when I enter battle with at least one hostile creature” if that’s permissible.

[Saggo]

You put the armor on.... and then you cast the spell later when combat begins...

Can't cast spells if you're not proficient.

[DivisibleByZero]

Can't cast spells if you're not proficient.

The spell you're casting gives you proficiency. It's a chicken and egg scenario. I don't think most DMs would mind.

[Naanomi]

The spell you're casting gives you proficiency. It's a chicken and egg scenario. I don't think most DMs would mind.
Not... really how the timing on that plays out sadly. If I’m completely bound so I can’t cast spells with somatic componants, I don’t get to cast Fredom of Movement on myself and say ‘well, after the spell is cast I can escape the restraints and cast it!’

You need to be able to cast the spell in the first place to get the benefits

[JackPhoenix]

The spell you're casting gives you proficiency. It's a chicken and egg scenario. I don't think most DMs would mind.

The spell gives you proficiency when you cast it. You can't cast it in the first place while you're wearing armor. It doesn't give you the proficiency retroactively before you cast it.

IMO, either the creators forgot how long does it take to wear armor, that you can't cast spells while being non-proficient with the armor, or the "all armor" part is redundant , and it was just copied from fighter's proficiencies with the rest of that point.

[Foff]

or maybe you find a magical instawear armor and use that, cast tenser transformation and then put on your armor like IronMan does in the movies, proceed to whack some baddies

[Zene]

So the spell is a great spell for the gish types. But one this people are having trouble with is it gives prof in all armor but it only last 10 mins and donning heavy armor takes 10 mins. So here some questions.

1. How can we get armor on quicker or make the spell last longer?
2. What builds to y'all have that incorporates this spell.
3. Just any General thoughts or advice.


One build I'm thinking is v-human with tought war cleric2 adj wizard 18. I know it a bit mad. War cleric gives you the armor and weapons but one thing I wanted was the spell aid helps with hp. It also give a few extra attacks as bonus action. Then adj makes you even more tankier.

A few ways to do this:

1) Feats for armor proficiency. Not recommended; it's a long road from no armor prof to heavy armor prof.

2) Race for armor proficiency. The only ones I'm aware of (I play AL, so AL-legal) are mountain dwarf and hobgoblin.

3) Go bladesinger (note this only gives you light armor)

4) Multiclass dips:

Cleric 1 for shield and heavy armor prof is a classic wizard multiclass. (MAD with Wisdom)
So is starting Fighter 1 for armor and shields and con save proficiency, and eventually picking up Fighter 2 for action surge (No MAD, as you should have over 13 dex as a wizard anyway)
Hexblade offers a new way to get Med armor and shield prof for a 1-level dip, and gives you a bunch of other goodies. But is MAD with Charisma.
And that leads us to (IMO) the best way to do a Tenser's build: Drop the wizard levels, and go Bard. Bards can pick it up at L14 as a Magical Secrets pick. If you take College of Swords or Whispers you can do a bit of extra damage on your melee hits, but honestly it's not much, so just take whichever college appeals most to you. (For me that's Lore.) Somewhere along the way, dip into Hexblade for

1) ability to use cha for weapon attacks and damage, making your build SAD (also meaning your Tenser's hits will be stronger; especially if you go Half-Elf and take Elven Accuracy)
2) Hexblade's curse for further damage and crit boost;
3) Shield spell and Armor of Agathys --a nice substitute for Aid, though note it also stacks with Aid-- for a massive survivability boost;
4) Medium armor and shield proficiency (if you didn't already have it from your bard subclass).
Note that this build makes you better at using Tenser's Transformation than any wizard build, multiclassed or otherwise. Which is kind of annoying, but hey that's bards.



Oh and for those bonus action attacks, pick up Polearm Master or Crossbow Expert. I know, it feels weird on a full caster, but if you're serious about a Tenser's build that guaranteed bonus attack is worth it.

[SkylarkR6]

I'm AFB but.... Can we bypass this by making a scroll of Tenser's Transformation? Just a thought

[DivisibleByZero]

Not... really how the timing on that plays out sadly. If I’m completely bound so I can’t cast spells with somatic componants, I don’t get to cast Fredom of Movement on myself and say ‘well, after the spell is cast I can escape the restraints and cast it!’

You need to be able to cast the spell in the first place to get the benefits

So you'd rather make that benefit useless and redundant than just retroactively allow it?
Okay. Sure.
But the reverse is easier and more fun and makes more sense in what would have been intended.

[Mith]

If you are doing a home game, making magic plate armour that acts like the called armour in 3.5 would work. So you cast the spell and use an object ineraction action to don the plate armour, then you have a move action left.

[Naanomi]

So you'd rather make that benefit useless and redundant than just retroactively allow it?
Okay. Sure.
But the reverse is easier and more fun and makes more sense in what would have been intended.
Honestly I’m surprised to see this from you. I thought being exacting about clear wordings and intents was kind of your thing?

For most casters, walking around being unable to cast spells until you cast a particular buff first isn’t all that functional. To be honest I’d rather have them had a Barbarian-Style unarmored defense clause than armor proficiency at all... probably would have been pretty functional on most characters trying to use the ability. As it stands now, I’m ok with it only functionally granting shield bonuses above normal AC outside of fringe corner cases

[Mith]

Honestly I’m surprised to see this from you. I thought being exacting about clear wordings and intents was kind of your thing?

For most casters, walking around being unable to cast spells until you cast a particular buff first isn’t all that functional. To be honest I’d rather have them had a Barbarian-Style unarmored defense clause than armor proficiency at all... probably would have been pretty functional on most characters trying to use the ability. As it stands now, I’m ok with it only functionally granting shield bonuses above normal AC outside of fringe corner cases

My books are currently in my car, so I can't check this idea for wording, but if you change the spell to being either 10+Dex+Int (or whatever the Barbarian formula is but substitute Int for Con) or proficiency in armour chosen at the casting of the spell? This can allow for a mix of play styles depending on player resources.

[Scathain]

My books are currently in my car, so I can't check this idea for wording, but if you change the spell to being either 10+Dex+Int (or whatever the Barbarian formula is but substitute Int for Con) or proficiency in armour chosen at the casting of the spell? This can allow for a mix of play styles depending on player resources.

Or maybe 13+Dex or something similar. Until someone tweets the devs, this’ll be my houserule.

[Saggo]

The spell you're casting gives you proficiency. It's a chicken and egg scenario. I don't think most DMs would mind.

Maybe, maybe not. Would still be a houserule.

[Anonymouswizard]

What we need is a ruling on how much of a suit of armour you have to have on before you count as 'wearing' it for game purposes.

Because there's a world of difference between 'everything bar the gloves and helmet' which lets you put it on, cast, and finish putting it on in a minute or two, and 'the first piece of the armour counts as wearing it'.

[Foxhound438]

The spell you're casting gives you proficiency. It's a chicken and egg scenario. I don't think most DMs would mind.

even if that did work (it doesn't), it would be a really bad plan. You conceivably wouldn't be able to cast other spells while not proficient, and then if you cast TT you can't cast other spells. You're basically dedicating everything to that one spell, and damned if there's anything that needs CC'd ever, or AOE'd, or buffed, etc.

as for the OP, I don't think armor is super needed. If you're building a wizard that's going anywhere close to melee in the first place, you probably run mage armor and pre-cast it every day, and you probably have good enough dex to make it work out. You won't have plate armor AC unless you max dex, but the spell gives you 50 THP for a reason.

But I wouldn't take it on a wizard. It comes late, but pick it up at level 14 on your valor/blade bard with magical secrets. You have a better hit die, some armor prof. from college, and shields if you're valor. Plus, bards don't really have good spells to do damage on their own list, so when a hard combat comes up I think a lot of the time throwing out a stolen tenser's transform would be better than a stolen cone of cold or something. If the situation dictates that CC would be better than damage, bard has plenty of that in the first place, so a damage spell is a fine pickup as a magical secret, and for a melee/weapon focused bard I don't think there's much better out there. A valor bard might opt to use sharpshooter and swift quiver more often, but I think transformation is about perfect for a blade bard.

[DivisibleByZero]

Honestly I’m surprised to see this from you. I thought being exacting about clear wordings and intents was kind of your thing?

When what the words say happens to be what we're discussing at the time, then that's true.
At the table I'm a Rulings guy. It just helps if you actually know what the rules are before you make Rulings.
We weren't discussing what the rules say. Everyone knows exactly what the rules say. That wasn't the question. The question was what to do about it.
Obviously I know that there rules don't apply casting spells when you're wearing armor that you aren't proficient in. But the fact that this spell grants proficiency in heavy armor means that you're supposed to be able to wear it while using this spell. Hence, a retroactive Ruling makes the most sense.

[TheUser]

Play an illusionist and make illusory armor real with your level 14 feature. Non-magical adamantine/mithral full plate after casting Tenser's should suffice.

There really isn't much other alternative other than using contingency after taking damage while wearing armor but then the spell ends and you're boned.

Make sure you're dual wielding so you can get 3 attacks with the 2d12 bonus damage ;)

[PhantomSoul]

I'll go the general thoughts route from the OP. To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about the spell -- I was thrilled to hear Tenser's was coming out (it was an IWD2 favourite), especially since my Monk just died (R.I.P.) and I'd rolled up a Bladesinger.

The spell gives some nice bonuses:
- 50 Temp HP: Definitely wouldn't turn that down!
- Advantage on attack rolls made with simple and martial weapons: Nice (Bladesinger+Rogue combos maybe?)
- Extra 2d12 force damage on each weapon attack hit: Awesome
- Proficiencies: Maybe the armour is just for completeness and the theme, and they're really just expecting the weapon and/or shield proficiency to come into play. I'm a Fighter 1 / Bladesinger X, though, so no effect for me. Not a big deal, though.
- Proficiency in Strength and Constitution Saving Throws: Quite nice... unless you also started as a Fighter. Oops!
- Extra Attack feature: Hm, Bladesingers get that already... :(

The Constitution Saving Throw at the end I like better than the auto-wasted turn of Haste, and I suppose it gives some benefit to having started as a Fighter.

Overall, it seems good, but it's too bad so much overlaps with the build I'd already chosen and if you're a Bladesinger (the Wizard more likely to want to be in melee as a character concept) you're losing out a little (especially if you built your Bladesinger with an initial level in something melee-y). That said, I like the spell, but I do wish that Extra Attack feature were not explicitly the feature (that way it would stack if you'd gotten a second attack, which seems reasonable enough for a Concentration spell from a 6th-level slot). I'm excited to play it and see how it feels in-game, though (that'll be a while; I'm level 5!). It could easily be that the first benefits still make you feel powerful enough, so I'll reserve final judgment and see how it plays out.

[PeteNutButter]

Play an illusionist and make illusory armor real with your level 14 feature. Non-magical adamantine/mithral full plate after casting Tenser's should suffice.

There really isn't much other alternative other than using contingency after taking damage while wearing armor but then the spell ends and you're boned.


I don't think either of these work. Contingency specifies a 5th level or lower spell.

The illusion attempt might run into the same problem as putting the armor on. You have to be concentrating on an illusion spell to make it real, which you can't be doing while still casting Tenser's. You could manage with a non-concentration illusion though, such as minor illusion if your DM let's you get away with it, size possibly being an issue (make sure to be a short PC).

The only other way I could think of actually using the spell's armor proficiency for heavy armor is to MC into sorcerer for 3+ levels and extend it, so you only spend half the duration donning that armor. lol

I'll go the general thoughts route from the OP. To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about the spell -- I was thrilled to hear Tenser's was coming out (it was an IWD2 favourite), especially since my Monk just died (R.I.P.) and I'd rolled up a Bladesinger.

The spell gives some nice bonuses:
- 50 Temp HP: Definitely wouldn't turn that down!
- Advantage on attack rolls made with simple and martial weapons: Nice (Bladesinger+Rogue combos maybe?)
- Extra 2d12 force damage on each weapon attack hit: Awesome
- Proficiencies: Maybe the armour is just for completeness and the theme, and they're really just expecting the weapon and/or shield proficiency to come into play. I'm a Fighter 1 / Bladesinger X, though, so no effect for me. Not a big deal, though.
- Proficiency in Strength and Constitution Saving Throws: Quite nice... unless you also started as a Fighter. Oops!
- Extra Attack feature: Hm, Bladesingers get that already... :(

The Constitution Saving Throw at the end I like better than the auto-wasted turn of Haste, and I suppose it gives some benefit to having started as a Fighter.

Overall, it seems good, but it's too bad so much overlaps with the build I'd already chosen and if you're a Bladesinger (the Wizard more likely to want to be in melee as a character concept) you're losing out a little (especially if you built your Bladesinger with an initial level in something melee-y). That said, I like the spell, but I do wish that Extra Attack feature were not explicitly the feature (that way it would stack if you'd gotten a second attack, which seems reasonable enough for a Concentration spell from a 6th-level slot). I'm excited to play it and see how it feels in-game, though (that'll be a while; I'm level 5!). It could easily be that the first benefits still make you feel powerful enough, so I'll reserve final judgment and see how it plays out.

It's an ok spell. I'm also a tad disappointed in it. I feel like since it turns off your spell casting, it shouldn't be concentration. Just add a line about losing concentration on anything else in there. You do not want to lose concentration on a spell that gives you proficiency in the armor that takes you 5 minutes to doff and you otherwise can't cast in while you are likely most a wizard... That's a bad situation to be in.

[clash]

Plat a sorcerer with extended spell if you really want that heavy armor. Cast tensers with a 20 minute duration and spend the first 10 donning armor.

[Naanomi]

Have someone else prepped to cast Fabricate? Or you cast Creation? Or... Forge-Cleric up some Chainmail?

[Throne12]

Or just find a some Elven chain.

[TheUser]

I don't think either of these work. Contingency specifies a 5th level or lower spell.

The illusion attempt might run into the same problem as putting the armor on. You have to be concentrating on an illusion spell to make it real, which you can't be doing while still casting Tenser's. You could manage with a non-concentration illusion though, such as minor illusion if your DM let's you get away with it, size possibly being an issue (make sure to be a short PC).

Except you don't need to concentrate on illusions at higher levels nor do you need to concentrate on keeping it real.



ILLUSORY REALITY
By 14th level, you have learned the secret of weaving
shadow magic into your illusions to give them a semireality.
When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or
higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical
object that is part of the illusion and make that object
real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action
while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for
1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion of a
bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough
for your allies to cross.
The object can't deal damage or otherwise
directly harm anyone.



MAJOR IMAGE
3rd-level illusion

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 120 feet

Components: V, S, M (a bit of fleece)

Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes

You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 20-foot cube. The image appears at a spot that you can see within range and lasts for the duration. It seems completely real, including sounds, smells, and temperature appropriate to the thing depicted. You can’t create sufficient heat or cold to cause damage, a sound loud enough to deal thunder damage or deafen a creature, or a smell that might sicken a creature (like a troglodyte’s stench).

As long as you are within range of the illusion, you can use your action to cause the image to move to any other spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image. For example, if you create an image of a creature and move it, you can alter the image so that it appears to be walking. Similarly, you can cause the illusion to make different sounds at different times, even making it carry on a conversation, for example.

Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it. A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image, and its other sensory qualities become faint to the creature.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration.

[Foxhound438]

Except you don't need to concentrate on illusions at higher levels nor do you need to concentrate on keeping it real.

unfortunately, this still doesn't quite work. You can only apply illusory reality when you cast the spell, so if you do this you don't have to concentrate, but after casting that you're in armor you're not proficient with, and can't cast transformation. If you cast transformation first, you of course can't cast the image.

But you're overthinking it. Just cast transformation while mage armor is active, and don't worry about heavy armor. If you're using transform, you need to have a pretty good attack stat, so like a +4 in str or dex, and it wouldn't really make sense to level up a wizard from 1 to 11 with no dex mod on the back of the idea of casting transformation ten levels down the line to get proficiency in heavy armor. So just have a decent dex mod and use mage armor.

[DivisibleByZero]

unfortunately, this still doesn't quite work. You can only apply illusory reality when you cast the spell, so if you do this you don't have to concentrate, but after casting that you're in armor you're not proficient with, and can't cast transformation. If you cast transformation first, you of course can't cast the image.

You can use Illusory Reality on your turn as a bonus action. It doesn't need to happen right away. So yes, it works. The emboldened portion is wrong.
But it costs two 6th level slots to make it work and it only lasts 10 minutes, so it's less than ideal.

[PeteNutButter]

You can use Illusory Reality on your turn as a bonus action. It doesn't need to happen right away. So yes, it works. The emboldened portion is wrong.
But it costs two 6th level slots to make it work and it only lasts 10 minutes, so it's less than ideal.

Ok, so it does work. That and extend seem to be the only way to make it actually work. It's clear the designers didn't really think of this.

[Zene]

Plat a sorcerer with extended spell if you really want that heavy armor. Cast tensers with a 20 minute duration and spend the first 10 donning armor.

Not on the sorcerer spell list. I suppose you could multiclass wiz 13 / sorc 3 to do this, but given all the options above, it seems like that is unnecessary. And if you’ve got the 13 cha to multiclass and the level to spare, just take hexblade 1 and be satisfied with your medium armor, shield prof, and 2-level savings.

Alternately, go sorc 17 and cast it via Extended Wish.

Also though, IMO taking 10 mins to put on armor and then having only 10 minutes to chase down someone to fight is a bit of a niche situation... maybe like gladiator fights, if you know the start time?

[Zene]

Ok, so it does work. That and extend seem to be the only way to make it actually work. It's clear the designers didn't really think of this.

Did you miss my first post above? Lots of ways in there besides illusory reality and extend. Check it out. Lemme know if you catch any flaws.

[Kane0]

Well in the Common Magic Items section theres the armor that you can take off as an action, mayhap there is a counterpart to it that you can put on as an action?

Otherwise there the good old fashioned way of just being proficient beforehand, though there are more/quicker/easier ways to get light/medium than heavy.

[Temperjoke]

It could be that they intended for wizards to stick to Light (1 minute to don) or Medium (5 minutes to don) armor, but included language for all armor for future-proofing against magic items that might be released in the future? Or to provide wiggle-room for DMs to work with their players?

[PeteNutButter]

Did you miss my first post above? Lots of ways in there besides illusory reality and extend. Check it out. Lemme know if you catch any flaws.

I meant there appears to only be two ways to actually benefit from the spell giving you heavy armor proficiency. Of course, the much more practical route is to be proficient in said armors with or without the spell.

[Zene]

I meant there appears to only be two ways to actually benefit from the spell giving you heavy armor proficiency. Of course, the much more practical route is to be proficient in said armors with or without the spell.

Ah, ok. Did someone have a reason the "put on all but the last piece or two, then cast the spell" doesn't work? Mechanically it'd be "I'm putting on armor for 10 minutes, and at the 9:50 mark I cast the spell".

[Saiga]

I feel like this was either an oversight in armour donning time or the effects non-proficient armour has on casting, but I don't think it's really that important to make the spell work. I just think of it as an extra frill which won't often see use.

[PeteNutButter]

Ah, ok. Did someone have a reason the "put on all but the last piece or two, then cast the spell" doesn't work? Mechanically it'd be "I'm putting on armor for 10 minutes, and at the 9:50 mark I cast the spell".

Not specifically. It's just a bit gamey, and could be very DM dependent. In reality these things would be modular. In practice your movement is restricted far sooner when putting on the plate, somewhere within the first minute really. Depending on the design of the armor, you often start with heavy bulky padding... As a DM I know I would not allow someone to cast a spell, then use their object interaction to put on their helmet and say, "my AC is 18 now, but since I wasn't wearing the full suit before I could cast even though I am no proficient." It's probably more practical to house rule that you can cast this one and only spell in heavy armor.

The other two methods are clearly RAW and RAI, and thus shouldn't see any DM trouble.

[The_Jette]

Does it really matter if it gives you proficiency in heavy armor? Even if you just happen to drag around a suit of full plate in case you get into trouble and have to wear it (for some reason), you'd need that high Strength score to avoid getting disadvantage on your attacks. Sure, Tenser's gives you advantage, so you'd be rolling at normal. But, that's negating one of the abilities of the spell. Wouldn't it be better to just stick with Mage armor and a decent Dex score, then pull out Tenser's when you're low on spells, and need to fight with a weapon instead? I don't really see that happening often enough to be an issue, honestly. Especially not at the level that you get Tenser's. Sure, one part of the spell is essentially useless.

As a side note: it's possible the writer of the spell just wanted to give you shield proficiency, but thought it might be silly to make you proficient with shields while not being proficient with armor. Who knows?

[PeteNutButter]

Does it really matter if it gives you proficiency in heavy armor? Even if you just happen to drag around a suit of full plate in case you get into trouble and have to wear it (for some reason), you'd need that high Strength score to avoid getting disadvantage on your attacks. Sure, Tenser's gives you advantage, so you'd be rolling at normal. But, that's negating one of the abilities of the spell. Wouldn't it be better to just stick with Mage armor and a decent Dex score, then pull out Tenser's when you're low on spells, and need to fight with a weapon instead? I don't really see that happening often enough to be an issue, honestly. Especially not at the level that you get Tenser's. Sure, one part of the spell is essentially useless.

As a side note: it's possible the writer of the spell just wanted to give you shield proficiency, but thought it might be silly to make you proficient with shields while not being proficient with armor. Who knows?

First, no it doesn't matter. It's just an odd thing that the designers either didn't consider or know something we don't know.

Second, not having the appropriate strength score for heavy armor, doesn't hurt your attack rolls, just makes you lose 10 feet of speed, which really isn't that bad.

[The_Jette]

First, no it doesn't matter. It's just an odd thing that the designers either didn't consider or know something we don't know.

Second, not having the appropriate strength score for heavy armor, doesn't hurt your attack rolls, just makes you lose 10 feet of speed, which really isn't that bad.

I wish that was all that happened. Check it:
Armor Proficiency: Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a Shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or Attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast Spells.

[DivisibleByZero]

You're both right, because you're saying two different things, neither of which are wrong.

[PeteNutButter]

You're both right, because you're saying two different things, neither of which are wrong.

I was responding to him saying that the spell granting proficiency in the armor is useless without the appropriate str score... which only takes off 10 feet of movement, as long as you are proficient.

[The_Jette]

I was responding to him saying that the spell granting proficiency in the armor is useless without the appropriate str score... which only takes off 10 feet of movement, as long as you are proficient.

To be fair, I wasn't saying that it was useless. I was saying that it negates other benefits of the spell to wear heavy armor without the appropriate strength score. Personally, I see those other benefits as better than the proficiency. So, I wouldn't do it. But, if someone else doesn't, that's up to them.

[PeteNutButter]

To be fair, I wasn't saying that it was useless. I was saying that it negates other benefits of the spell to wear heavy armor without the appropriate strength score. Personally, I see those other benefits as better than the proficiency. So, I wouldn't do it. But, if someone else doesn't, that's up to them.

I feel like you are confusing this further.

Strength score requirement is not the same as being proficient.

A kobold fighter with 6 strength could put on plate and be just fine other than have a movement speed penalty. Also a 20 strength character would have all the struggles of disadvantage and everything else, if they weren't proficient.

Putting on heavy armor--how ever you manage it--does not negate any advantage of the spell, regardless of your str score.

[clem]

One alternative it to play Lizardfolk or Dragonborn with the Dragon Hide feat to have a AC of 13 + Dex. Would require a reasonable amount of Dexterity to pull off, but that's not unusual for wizards.

[Rusvul]

With RAW, I don't think there's any feasible way to use the armor proficiency benefit of Tenser's Transformation by yourself. Even if you manage to make it work on your own, Tenser's Transformation is a concentration spell--you risk losing the spell to damage, and then you're a useless wizard in a tin can who can't cast spells because you're not used to being covered in metal.

There are two ways I can think of to make it work:

A) In the Arms & Equipment Guide, there was a specific set of magic armor called Tesselated Armor. The idea is that it's a box with hundreds of identical metal shapes. At the user's command word, they "stream from the box and flow over the wearer's body, interlocking perfectly to create a single, smooth suit of +2 full plate. Pretty neat idea. An item like this (or the far more boring Called armor that teleports to you), that you can don or doff quickly, would make the third benefit of Tenser's Transformation much more useful. There's nothing like that in any of the 5e books as far as I'm aware, but it'd be easy enough to homebrew, and it'd be pretty cool.

B) This one comes in a few steps.
1.) Have your level 14 Illusionist buddy cast Major Image on you, to make it appear like you're clad in adamantine full plate.
2.) Cast Tenser's Transformation on yourself.
3.) Have your buddy use Illusory Reality to make you actually clad in adamantin full plate.

If you lose your concentration, your Illusionist pal can just cast another Concentration spell, and your full plate goes away. (Unless I'm misunderstanding Illusory Reality, even once the spell is real it still requires your concentration.) This is probably far more effort than it's worth--using not only your concentration, but also another powerful spellcaster's, just so you can wear armor as you make yourself into a worse Fighter--but it does allow you to utilize the third benefit of Tenser's Transformation.

[Naanomi]

One alternative it to play Lizardfolk or Dragonborn with the Dragon Hide feat to have a AC of 13 + Dex. Would require a reasonable amount of Dexterity to pull off, but that's not unusual for wizards.
So... tenser’s tortle?

[Zene]

So, setting aside the armor question for a minute— how else can we maximize a Tenser’s build?

What (non-concentration) buffs would you want to stack on it, if any?

What subclass abilities (wizard or bard) would complement it well?

Is it better to use its attacks for melee or ranged? Is it worth picking up PAM / crossbow expert for the bonus action attack in an otherwise caster build? If yes, what about GWM or Sharpshooter? Or is it better to forgo the feats, and do two-weapon fighting or Crown of Stars instead?

[Zene]

And I guess some meta questions: Is this worth it? Are you gimping your caster abilities too much by building around this? Would you be more effective casting other spells (and is that answer different if you’re a bard vs a wizard)? How will your damage compare to a (L13 and up) martial class?

[Naanomi]

My guess is bladesinger, abjurer, and blade bard are all decent bases for utilizing this spell (without needing any real ‘building around’ it)

[jaappleton]

The hilarious part about this spell is that it’s a Wizard Spell, but what makes the most use out of it is the Arcana Cleric.

[Wilb]

I want to test it with a Dwarven War Mage with rolled stats, to see if the features from the subclass + the free armor prof can make the spell viable.

[PeteNutButter]

I'd say a fighter 1/abjurer x. Use PAM so you get 3 attacks and GWM since you have advantage on them all. Cleric 1/wizard x can actually benefit from the saving throws gained.

War wizard is kind of cool also as you can use his level 2 and 10 features during the spell.

[Gtdead]

Armor hardly matters. Wizard archers new meta.

Personally I believe that this spell is super misguided. It could at the very least, increase damage with cantrips too. This plays out more like a Jekyll/Hyde thing. Which is good, but...

[UrielAwakened]

The only way I've seen is the illusionist feature that lets you make an illusion real.

Make an illusion of plate armor on yourself, cast transformation, solidify the illusion.

[Temperjoke]

Might be useful in scenarios where damaging magic is forbidden, such as official combat tournaments, or when you're in a city/country where magic is taboo, this spell helps even the odds for a wizard. It could also be useful if your group is trying to keep the ruckus down to a minimum, after all some spells can be quite noisy.

[The_Jette]

I feel like you are confusing this further.

Strength score requirement is not the same as being proficient.

A kobold fighter with 6 strength could put on plate and be just fine other than have a movement speed penalty. Also a 20 strength character would have all the struggles of disadvantage and everything else, if they weren't proficient.

Putting on heavy armor--how ever you manage it--does not negate any advantage of the spell, regardless of your str score.

You're completely correct. I was swapping non-proficiency penalties and low strength penalties in my head. My bad. I mean, being 10' slower also sucks. But, hopefully at this point you'd have teleport spells for stuff like that; like, misty step, etc. So, objection withdrawn.

[Spacehamster]

Which classes have access to this spell? Not got xanathars guide yet, eagerly awaiting it to dimp down in my mailbox. :)

[Zene]

I'd say a fighter 1/abjurer x. Use PAM so you get 3 attacks and GWM since you have advantage on them all. Cleric 1/wizard x can actually benefit from the saving throws gained.

War wizard is kind of cool also as you can use his level 2 and 10 features during the spell.

Yeah I’m kinda wanting to try a Tenser’s tank build with either:

- fighter 1 or 2/war wizard 13 (maybe HAM too? maybe a half-orc?), and then possibly even dipping bear barb 3 after that for resistance.

Or

- hexblade 1 / abjurer 13, with lower AC but nice reactive damage via the agathys/ward interaction

[MeeposFire]

Armor hardly matters. Wizard archers new meta.

Personally I believe that this spell is super misguided. It could at the very least, increase damage with cantrips too. This plays out more like a Jekyll/Hyde thing. Which is good, but...

Doing that would remove the whole traditional point of the spell. The spell has always been the "turn a wizard into a warrior for a short time and so no casting spells" spell.

I do think there would be something to the cantrip boosting spells but they would need to be their own thing and not changing a classic spell I think.

[Naanomi]

Which classes have access to this spell? Not got xanathars guide yet, eagerly awaiting it to dimp down in my mailbox. :)
https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice it wasn't fully updated yet with XGtE...

[Zene]

Which classes have access to this spell? Not got xanathars guide yet, eagerly awaiting it to dimp down in my mailbox. :)

Only wizards have it on their spell list. Bards and arcana clerics can steal it, of course. In theory arcane tricksters and eldrtich knights could cast it from a scroll.

[MeeposFire]

Well the book does give one easy option for a wizard to put on heavy armor quickly for this spell. In the common magic items area of the book there is an armor that allows you to put it on using a command word as an action. So you could use an action to cast TT and then on the next round you can spend an action to put on your plate. NOt the best action economy but certainly doable.

As a further bonus it is not an item that requires attunement.

[Spacehamster]

Only wizards have it on their spell list. Bards and arcana clerics can steal it, of course. In theory arcane tricksters and eldrtich knights could cast it from a scroll.

Ah damn, would have been so much better in warlock hands, tho nice for valor bards/swords to poach tho I guess. :)

[Saggo]

Only wizards have it on their spell list. Bards and arcana clerics can steal it, of course. In theory arcane tricksters and eldrtich knights could cast it from a scroll.

I have a friend playing a Whispers Bard that's thinking of stealing this spell. It also happens to be a bigger buff to Whispers than it is to Blade or Valor, for the extra attack.

[Spacehamster]

Only wizards have it on their spell list. Bards and arcana clerics can steal it, of course. In theory arcane tricksters and eldrtich knights could cast it from a scroll.

Oh, also is it self only buff or could you transform an ally?

[Zene]

Oh, also is it self only buff or could you transform an ally?

Self


I have a friend playing a Whispers Bard that's thinking of stealing this spell. It also happens to be a bigger buff to Whispers than it is to Blade or Valor, for the extra attack.

Yeah it’s like the great equalizer

[Finger6842]

A level 6 spell that you get at level 11. So looking at it from that perspective:

1. 50 temp hit points, 1 hit from almost any single creature you will face at level 11 plus.
2. advantage on attack rolls, very nice, you will likely hit with your simple and martial weapons. (of course, if you carry them I bet you are already proficient.)
3. 2d12 force damage on any hit, again, nice. 6th level chain lightning is 10d8 up to 4 targets or disintegrate 10d6+40 would be better.
4. Armor proficiencies, though again, why carry the weight of what you cannot use all the time. Maybe there's some lying around that fits. While our group does not actively count weight we do get sanity checks, no one is toting around 15 weapons and spare suits of armor.
5. Proficiency in STR and CON saving throws...awesome, though your average wizard probably has 6 STR and 10 CON so proficiency is of limited help.
6. you can attack twice (if you don't already have it). Wizard Staff 1d8 plus the aforementioned 2d12 bonus, max damage 32 per attack. Lore Bard is essentially the same...
7. Immediately after the spell ends DC15 CON Save or be exhausted. Add insult to injury, the spell has already ended, you are no longer proficient.

Why would anyone take this spell, specifically a Wizard? Far better to obey Gandalf and "Fly you fools" or cast a level 6 Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Disintegrate spell and then do almost anything else. I see limited advantage for any other class that can cast wizard spells as well. What am I missing?

6th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Self

Components: V, S, M (a few hairs from a bull)

Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:

You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force damage.
You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.
Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

[Naanomi]

Strength Based Tortle Blade-Bard, dual-wielding Longswords... probably AL compliant as well

[PeteNutButter]

A level 6 spell that you get at level 11. So looking at it from that perspective:

1. 50 temp hit points, 1 hit from almost any single creature you will face at level 11 plus.
2. advantage on attack rolls, very nice, you will likely hit with your simple and martial weapons. (of course, if you carry them I bet you are already proficient.)
3. 2d12 force damage on any hit, again, nice. 6th level chain lightning is 10d8 up to 4 targets or disintegrate 10d6+40 would be better.
4. Armor proficiencies, though again, why carry the weight of what you cannot use all the time. Maybe there's some lying around that fits. While our group does not actively count weight we do get sanity checks, no one is toting around 15 weapons and spare suits of armor.
5. Proficiency in STR and CON saving throws...awesome, though your average wizard probably has 6 STR and 10 CON so proficiency is of limited help.
6. you can attack twice (if you don't already have it). Wizard Staff 1d8 plus the aforementioned 2d12 bonus, max damage 32 per attack. Lore Bard is essentially the same...
7. Immediately after the spell ends DC15 CON Save or be exhausted. Add insult to injury, the spell has already ended, you are no longer proficient.

Why would anyone take this spell, specifically a Wizard? Far better to obey Gandalf and "Fly you fools" or cast a level 6 Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Disintegrate spell and then do almost anything else. I see limited advantage for any other class that can cast wizard spells as well. What am I missing?

6th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Self

Components: V, S, M (a few hairs from a bull)

Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:

You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force damage.
You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.
Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

1. Yes temp hp is nice padding. Probably more like one and a half swings from whatever you are facing.
2. You are probably already a gish if using this spell or at least took first level in fighter, and advantage is amazing.
3. With +2d12 damage it only takes 6 attacks to pass up the damage of disintegrate, that's 3 rounds, or 2 if you are using PAM.
4. Yes, this part is pointless.
5. Also pointless if you started fighter, but wait... your average wizard has 10 con! That's an awful wizard. Every wizard should have at least 14, and I usually start mine with 16.
6. Again, if you're a gish already this is quite potent.
7. Just a flavor ability mostly. Don't use it early in the adventuring day, or don't bother about it because if it's that important the cleric can cast greater restoration at this level.

Not every spell is useful for every wizard (or bard), but some are extremely potent in the right hands. My fighter 1/abjurer 11 is just the perfect character for this spell. He has a high strength and uses PAM with his staff and shield. This spell adds 39 average damage to his 3 attacks, and then probably about 50 total DPR increase if you factor the advantage in. Although, unless they make an adventure in AL with a scroll of this... he'll never use it. Damn +1 rule.

[Finger6842]

1. Yes temp hp is nice padding. Probably more like one and a half swings from whatever you are facing.
2. You are probably already a gish if using this spell or at least took first level in fighter, and advantage is amazing.
3. With +2d12 damage it only takes 6 attacks to pass up the damage of disintegrate, that's 3 rounds, or 2 if you are using PAM.
4. Yes, this part is pointless.
5. Also pointless if you started fighter, but wait... your average wizard has 10 con! That's an awful wizard. Every wizard should have at least 14, and I usually start mine with 16.
6. Again, if you're a gish already this is quite potent.
7. Just a flavor ability mostly. Don't use it early in the adventuring day, or don't bother about it because if it's that important the cleric can cast greater restoration at this level.

Not every spell is useful for every wizard (or bard), but some are extremely potent in the right hands. My fighter 1/abjurer 11 is just the perfect character for this spell. He has a high strength and uses PAM with his staff and shield. This spell adds 39 average damage to his 3 attacks, and then probably about 50 total DPR increase if you factor the advantage in. Although, unless they make an adventure in AL with a scroll of this... he'll never use it. Damn +1 rule.

I thought most GISH could not use this spell but assuming he could as in your example, wouldn't he likely already be proficient in STR and CON? I agree with you, this is a lovely DPR bump, no question about it. How does a level 1 fighter have 3 attacks? I feel like i'm still missing something. This spell is intriging but I just can't find a combo that would effectively use it. As the OP indicated you simply can't don armor quickly enough, A true GISH likely started with the Fighter/Cleric level to get the armor proficiency and STR/CON ST combo. In my experience avoid any level of exhaustion like the plague, it will haunt you. Wizard's are much harder to hit than they get credit for, shield is an awesome spell so 50 HP is nice, better than your average large heal by far. Unable to cast spells is functionally a no go for me but then I make heavy use of counterspell and haste. Apart from homebrew magic items I haven't seen anything that counters the armor problem.

[Specter]

The main problem Tenser's has now is similar to Haste: it's concentration, and if you fail your concentration (which is common at high levels even with the CON proficiency the spell gives you), you need to make another CON save (without proficiency this time) or gain a level of exhaustion. In a long adventuring day, that can really cripple you. If you're planning a build around this, be sure to grab War Caster.

[Finger6842]

The main problem Tenser's has now is similar to Haste: it's concentration, and if you fail your concentration (which is common at high levels even with the CON proficiency the spell gives you), you need to make another CON save (without proficiency this time) or gain a level of exhaustion. In a long adventuring day, that can really cripple you. If you're planning a build around this, be sure to grab War Caster.

War Caster, excellent point there Specter. Definately something the OP was looking for.

[Sigreid]

The game is full of spells that you use very deliberately in the right situation. This spell feels more to me like a panic button.

[Specter]

My personal considerations about putting the spell to good use:

1) War Caster, as mentioned above. There are two CON saves involved in this spell, regular concentration and avoiding exhaustion, so you want this feat.
2) I'd go for two-weapon fighting. The extra 2d12 is much better than a higher damage dice from bigger weapons or +2 to AC.
3) As for armor, you could use Contigency. "When I cast Tenser's, this armor immediately dons itself around me". I think that's valid.
4) Even with advantage, you still want a high DEX and if possible two magic weapons to make sure you hit.
5) A bow is also a viable option if you're low on health, even with the temp HP.

[PhantomSoul]

For War Caster, it looks like some people might be thinking it gives Advantage on all Constitution Saving Throws, but it's only on Concentration Saving Throws to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage. (I know it's one people have gotten mixed up slightly in our group!)


You have advantage on Constitution saving throws
that you make to maintain your concentration on a
spell when you take damage.

[Specter]

For War Caster, it looks like some people might be thinking it gives Advantage on all Constitution Saving Throws, but it's only on Concentration Saving Throws to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage. (I know it's one people have gotten mixed up slightly in our group!)

You are correct.

[Finlam]

How about a DEX based 2 weapon fighting gish:

Race: Pick a flavor of Elf
Fighter 1
Wizard: pick a flavor of wizard X
Feat 1 @level5 = Elven Accuracy
ASI @level9 = Max out Dex

By the time you get the spell at level 12 (a ridiculously long time for a build to come online, imho) you can get:

*2 attacks per round
*an extra 2d6 per attack
*Trivantage on every attack roll

overall, not too bad. If you're doing the Fighter 1/wizard X thing anyway, it's probably worth it, but I'm having a hard time picturing any other scenario when it makes sense other than cleric 1/wizard x and some bards.

[Throne12]

Race: Eladrin
Class: bladesinger wizard
Feat: duel wielder, elven Accuracy (don't need warcaster blade song gives advantage on con saves and if you are going to cast a spell you can drop then pick back up a sword for free.)
Weapons: 2 rapier's (if you don't like 2 rapier's just full them as so other thin bladed sword.)
At 14 level your doing 3d8+25+6d12. (25=dex+dex+int+int+int)
Your AC is high with your bladesong and mage armor. 13+5+5+1=24


Race: v-human
Class: fighter 2, Adj wizard 18 (just for a full 20th lv)
Feat's: PAM, Sentinel (and if you can fit in warcaster or tough)
Fighting style: +1 AC
Weapon: glave
AC 19 not the bests but it ok you got arcane ward and 50 temp hp.
Attack: 2d10+1d4+6d12+15 that's better the a firebolt 4d10

[Throne12]

I can also see a necromancer using it. Leave one slot open for it then witn the moble feat mage armor and duel daggers. Pop in hit, hit, and hit for 3d4+6d12+10 is better then a cantrip. Just give the undead the command attack anything I attack. Then jump some sorry Bassterd then jump behind one of your undead. While they sworm him.

[PeteNutButter]

I thought most GISH could not use this spell but assuming he could as in your example, wouldn't he likely already be proficient in STR and CON? I agree with you, this is a lovely DPR bump, no question about it. How does a level 1 fighter have 3 attacks? I feel like i'm still missing something. This spell is intriging but I just can't find a combo that would effectively use it. As the OP indicated you simply can't don armor quickly enough, A true GISH likely started with the Fighter/Cleric level to get the armor proficiency and STR/CON ST combo. In my experience avoid any level of exhaustion like the plague, it will haunt you. Wizard's are much harder to hit than they get credit for, shield is an awesome spell so 50 HP is nice, better than your average large heal by far. Unable to cast spells is functionally a no go for me but then I make heavy use of counterspell and haste. Apart from homebrew magic items I haven't seen anything that counters the armor problem.

A level 1 fighter makes 3 attacks with this spell provided he has a bonus action attack via TWF or PAM. My character I mentioned has PAM, typically using Haste, my strategy was to BB, Haste Attack, bonus action PAM attack. With Tenser's it'd be attack action (2 attacks), bonus action PAM attack. So with my 19 str (gauntlets) and +2 staff it's (1d6+8+2d12)*2 + 1d4+8+2d12 all +10 to hit with advantage.

The con saves aren't a huge deal, as a fighter 1 I have proficiency. The lack of ability to use reaction spells such as shield, absorb elements, and counterspell is a bit of a damper though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Reading through xanthars, there's a common magic armor than specifically can be donned in an action. It's not a perfect solution, but it works.

[Temperjoke]

How about casting it from a scroll? It's a pity that it's a level 6 spell; if it were level 5, it could be loaded into a ring of spell storing.

[Zene]

Reading through xanthars, there's a common magic armor than specifically can be donned in an action. It's not a perfect solution, but it works.

It's armor that you can doff (i.e., take off) as an action. Still takes the normal time to put on.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's armor that you can doff (i.e., take off) as an action. Still takes the normal time to put on.

Ah. Misread that then.