How to deal with a player who hates you? [Archive]

magicalmagicman

2017-11-19, 11:12 AM

I have this noob on my team. He does nothing out of combat in the party. He even plays league of legends while we solve out of combat encounters and when it's his turn in combat we need to recap him on everything that's happened because he wasn't listening. I could hear the DM repeating the same descriptions 3 times in the game because of him.

I'm playing a summoner and he's playing a shifter. He has some sort of warped hatred on summoners. He says it turns the game into a single player tactics rpg centered around me, and swears every time he sees me summon a creature.

He says he has no interest in watching an NPC kill everything while he waits around doing nothing. I countered saying how is summoning a monster to attack a creature, or using its ability to blast a creature any different from hitting the creature with a sword yourself or casting fireball? And he replied it's different because you're doing the killing, not a NPC. The "NPC" is controlled by me, so it's not a "NPC", yet he stills calls my summons "NPCs".

In another discussion, when I asked the party to start positioning themselves in a way so that I can throw an AoE attack without friendly fire, he said no. He said mundanes should never change what they are doing to help spellcasters no matter how small the change is because magic is flexible, mundanes are not, therefore magic users should never ask mundanes to do something differently no matter how small and instead completely change their strategy to match what the mundanes are doing. He says magic users should adjust to the mundanes and never the other way around.

When we first started playing I was using Water Devotion to summon water elementals to check a room for traps, and he said "stop f***ing take the fun out of the game". He is not the rogue in our party, our rogue in our party had no problem with my method of trap removal, and he does absolutely nothing when we are checking for traps and yet he says this?

Not related to me, a player had his PC wear an unidentified magic item and asked the other party members to punch him to see if the item makes it harder for them to hit him. Later in our break I could hear the problem player yell at this player for "metagaming" saying he knew there are no cursed items at this level and he was cheating.

I like the group I am in, and no one has a problem with my summoning, absolutely no one, except this guy. I really hate him now and I wish he would leave. The rest of the party doesn't hate him (they don't hate him but they don't like him either) so I can't ask for a boot.

Right now I want to just ruin d&d for him. He's a noob playing a shifter, so I want to summon creatures in a way that will piss him off by planar binding creatures that does exactly what his PC is doing except better, have large creatures completely cut him off from getting adjacent to the enemies so he can't attack, have creatures engulf/devour/bull rush creatures away from him, etc. and I will liberally use my water elementals and later summon elemental reserve feat for trap removing (our rogue in the party has 0 problem with this especially since hes the only one capable of searching for nontrap stuff which our campaign is filled with.) And whenever I do cast buffs I am going to intentionally keep him out of range and think of some fluff reason for this.

I know this is not the adult, mature way to deal with the situation, so I am posting this thread. How would you deal with this mother ****er who's on his high f***ing horse just because he's mundane and yelling and swearing at me at every chance he gets to make me stop playing a summoner?

The other 3 mundanes in our group is a fighter, rogue, and archer, and I don't want to ruin their experiences. Archer and rogue should have no problem with me dealing fantastic damage with my summons and called creatures, but I'm worried about the fighter. He is a power attacking damage dealing monster while the shifter is not, so I think I can hit a sweet spot that doesn't outshine his damage but render the shifter obsolete.

Nifft

2017-11-19, 11:17 AM

Kill the player and take his stuff.

But seriously, this is an out-of-game personality conflict, so you should try to resolve it by talking, specifically by talking to the Shifter's player -- and also talking to the DM / other players to kick the guy out if you can't reach an amicable solution.

Playing games is supposed to be a fun way to reduce stress, not a brand new source of stress.

An Enemy Spy

2017-11-19, 11:19 AM

magicalmagicman

2017-11-19, 11:24 AM

Kesnit

2017-11-19, 11:36 AM

I have this noob on my team. He does nothing out of combat in the party. He even plays league of legends while we solve out of combat encounters and when it's his turn in combat we need to recap him on everything that's happened because he wasn't listening. I could hear the DM repeating the same descriptions 3 times in the game because of him.

This is, admittedly, a serious issue.

He says he has no interest in watching an NPC kill everything while he waits around doing nothing. I countered saying how is summoning a monster to attack a creature, or using its ability to blast a creature any different from hitting the creature with a sword yourself or casting fireball? And he replied it's different because you're doing the killing, not a NPC. The "NPC" is controlled by me, so it's not a "NPC", yet he stills calls my summons "NPCs".

It is an NPC. It is a character that is not a PC, which means it is an NPC.

Also, he has a point. You are, effectively, getting 2 turns every round. He only gets one. That means you spend twice the amount of time as any other player. And unless you are one of those people who plans out your turn and knows what you will do, you're turns will take even longer because you have to decide an action and make rolls for both your PC and your summoned creature.

In another discussion, when I asked the party to start positioning themselves in a way so that I can throw an AoE attack without friendly fire, he said no. He said mundanes should never change what they are doing to help spellcasters no matter how small the change is because magic is flexible, mundanes are not, therefore magic users should never ask mundanes to do something differently no matter how small and instead completely change their strategy to match what the mundanes are doing. He says magic users should adjust to the mundanes and never the other way around.

While he approached it wrong, again, he has a point. Magic users have many options. Mundanes do not. You are effectively asking him "hey, don't do anything this round so I can do my magic stuff." He's already getting less actions than you, and you are telling him not to take the actions he actually has.

When we first started playing I was using Water Devotion to summon water elementals to check a room for traps, and he said "stop f***ing take the fun out of the game". He is not the rogue in our party, our rogue in our party had no problem with my method of trap removal, and he does absolutely nothing when we are checking for traps and yet he says this?

It isn't just the Rogue who could be involved. If the Rogue fails to find a trap, it can lead to an encounter for the entire party. Instead, you are - again - solving everything for them and taking away what could be a chance for him to actually do something.

Not related to me, a player had his PC wear an unidentified magic item and asked the other party members to punch him to see if the item makes it harder for them to hit him. Later in our break I could hear the problem player yell at this player for "metagaming" saying he knew there are no cursed items at this level and he was cheating.

Sounds like the DM should throw in some cursed items (or just tell the party what the items are when they are found).

Right now I want to just ruin d&d for him. He's a noob playing a shifter, so I want to summon creatures in a way that will piss him off by planar binding creatures that does exactly what his PC is doing except better,

You have already acknowledged this is the wrong thing to do. So why not back off and let the rest of the party play their characters. Let the Rogue do Rogue stuff (rather than you solving all the issues). Why not ask the DM if you can rebuild to a different caster type that does not focus on summoning? Let the player at issue actually play his character, rather than stepping on his toes and telling him to sit down and let you handle everything?

And finally, why not help him build what he wants to play? You said he is a noob. In that case, he likely does not know how classes actually work, rather than how they are supposed to work. So ask him what he wants his PC to be able to do and guide him towards a class/race combo that will actually do that. And stop stepping on his toes and telling him to sit back and let you handle it all. (And you wonder why he doesn't pay attention...)

I know this is not the adult, mature way to deal with the situation, so I am posting this thread. How would you deal with this mother ****er who's on his high f***ing horse just because he's mundane and yelling and swearing at me at every chance he gets to make me stop playing a summoner?

Realize you aren't the only player at the table and learn to play with other people?

The other 3 mundanes in our group is a fighter, rogue, and archer, and I don't want to ruin their experiences. Archer and rogue should have no problem with me dealing fantastic damage with my summons and called creatures, but I'm worried about the fighter. He is a power attacking damage dealing monster while the shifter is not, so I think I can hit a sweet spot that doesn't outshine his damage but render the shifter obsolete.

Sounds like you have the perfect set-up for a buff-focused and BFC caster. Make everyone better at their jobs, then let them do them.

magicalmagicman

2017-11-19, 11:46 AM

Also, he has a point. You are, effectively, getting 2 turns every round. He only gets one. That means you spend twice the amount of time as any other player. And unless you are one of those people who plans out your turn and knows what you will do, you're turns will take even longer because you have to decide an action and make rolls for both your PC and your summoned creature.

I am one of those people who plans out my turn. I am arguably the quickest person in my group in combat. Immediately on my turn I roll everything I need and then end my turn.

While he approached it wrong, again, he has a point. Magic users have many options. Mundanes do not. You are effectively asking him "hey, don't do anything this round so I can do my magic stuff." He's already getting less actions than you, and you are telling him not to take the actions he actually has.

I am not a magic user, I am a summoner. I play this game to summon not to use magic. Also the action in question here is not "take a backseat", it's "flank diagonally" or engage enemies along with the other mundanes instead of right in the middle of everything.

It isn't just the Rogue who could be involved. If the Rogue fails to find a trap, it can lead to an encounter for the entire party. Instead, you are - again - solving everything for them and taking away what could be a chance for him to actually do something.

How am I solving everything? Summoners don't really do jack low levels unless you are a druid, which I am not. In fact my damage contribution is lower than the rest of the party so i do less than them in combat, and my character is geared towards combat so he is less useful out of combat too. Trap removal is my sole out of combat contribution.

You have already acknowledged this is the wrong thing to do. So why not back off and let the rest of the party play their characters. Let the Rogue do Rogue stuff (rather than you solving all the issues). Why not ask the DM if you can rebuild to a different caster type that does not focus on summoning? Let the player at issue actually play his character, rather than stepping on his toes and telling him to sit down and let you handle everything?

Again I am the one doing the least out of combat, and I do less than the mundanes in combat.

Realize you aren't the only player at the table and learn to play with other people?

You seem to be under the impression that I'm a game hogger who does everything instead of an experienced player who intentionally built a supremely specialized spellcaster to not outshine mundanes.

Sounds like you have the perfect set-up for a buff-focused and BFC caster. Make everyone better at their jobs, then let them do them.

Never. Never ever. I only play d&d to summon. {Scrubbed} My enjoyment of the game is just as important as yours and I'm not gonna change how I play because you think suboptimal damage or trap triggering (not removal because I can't disable resetting traps) is game hogging in which case you're no better than him.

I am tilted right now so my tone is harsh.

Geddy2112

2017-11-19, 11:49 AM

So, being a noob and not contributing outside of combat are not inherently bad. We have all been there, and that is not the problem. I have been there and t

On the grounds of "plays league of legends during the game and is not paying attention" the player should get the boot. If you are so disengaged in the game that you have to play ANOTHER GAME during, you clearly don't need to be playing. I have never seen a player who did this be anything but trouble.

On the grounds of "swearing at you for simply playing your class" the player should also get the boot. That kind of attitude has no place in a team game. However, this one can be fixed(maybe)

That said, take the high road. Don't go down to their level, be a better player and a better person. Try to help and empathize with the guy-maybe he just does not understand. I have seen some horrific newbie behavior before, and I have seen some players who were once TOXIC newbies become really great friends and roleplayers. It is rare-out of the 8 players I have seen do this, only 3 became better after being toxic newbies. The difference is that 3 could learn from mistakes, the others doubled down on them. From the side gaming, I doubt they have a chance to improve but they might.

The other players don't particularly like this player, so kicking them is an option. However, if it is just between you and this player, you might be better off leaving. Eventually the toxic player will either grate on the rest of them and get booted, or they get bored, quit, and go back to LoL.
No game is better than a bad one.

Crake

2017-11-19, 11:59 AM

Regarding the players trying on magical items: Identify only has a 1% chance per caster level to reveal an item is cursed, so trying on an unidentified item isn't metagaming, it's "i don't want to wait till tomorrow when the wizard prepares an identify", since it's far more likely that a cursed item will slip past your identify and you'll put it on and get cursed anyway.

Unless you're level 11+ and the wizard has analyzed dweomer of course. But I suspect that's not the case.

Zaq

2017-11-19, 12:00 PM

I know you said you talked to him already, and I do believe you when you say that it didn't resolve the problem right away, but it remains true that you can never solve an out-of-game problem with an in-game solution. Not long-term, at least. This isn't a movie where cleverly humiliating or frustrating someone will make them have a total change of personality, and the underlying problem is still going to be there.

Try a different out-of-game solution. Talk to him again. Talk to the other players and the GM. Don't be vindictive, but be honest about the fact that your play styles are less than compatible and you're directly having less fun as a result. If you don't have the authority to initiate a unilateral boot, there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to what you described, but I can guarantee that trying to "ruin the game for him" with an in-game solution is more likely to make you look like a jackass to your friends than it is to have the effect that you really want.

magicalmagicman

2017-11-19, 12:04 PM

You don't give death sentences to people with 20 parking violations. To me he's a murderer and totally deserves the death sentence, but to my other party members he's just a parking violator. And my other party members are really nice guys who don't like taking extreme measures, especially the DM, so can't boot. The party is big (7) and him zoning out literally has 0 impact in the game. If he missed a 5 sessions in a row no one would ever notice since he doesn't do much in the game, which is why the other players can tolerate him by ignoring him and they rather let him be zoned out than take extreme measures. They don't mind him not doing anything. I don't mind him not doing anything, but I am getting pissed off at his constant swearing and his attitude towards me.

I know you said you talked to him already, and I do believe you when you say that it didn't resolve the problem right away, but it remains true that you can never solve an out-of-game problem with an in-game solution. Not long-term, at least. This isn't a movie where cleverly humiliating or frustrating someone will make them have a total change of personality, and the underlying problem is still going to be there.

You're right, I'd be only doing that to relieve my stress and that would make me look like the bad guy.

Try a different out-of-game solution. Talk to him again. Talk to the other players and the GM. Don't be vindictive, but be honest about the fact that your play styles are less than compatible and you're directly having less fun as a result. If you don't have the authority to initiate a unilateral boot, there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to what you described, but I can guarantee that trying to "ruin the game for him" with an in-game solution is more likely to make you look like a jackass to your friends than it is to have the effect that you really want.

Our characters aren't incompatible. They're totally compatible. A flanking buddy meatshield is always compatible with a mundane, which is why other mundanes don't have a problem with me. He just has a warped view on summons.

The next time he swears I will slip the DM a message saying this is really starting to piss me off.

Zaq

2017-11-19, 12:16 PM

Our characters aren't incompatible. They're totally compatible. A flanking buddy meatshield is always compatible with a mundane, which is why other mundanes don't have a problem with me. He just has a warped view on summons.

The next time he swears I will slip the DM a message saying this is really starting to piss me off.

I didn't say anything about your characters. I said that your play styles are less than compatible. This has very little to do with your characters. It has to do with your respective attitudes towards the game (and your respective attitudes towards the other human beings sitting at the table with you) and the way you each engage with the game itself.

Galacktic

2017-11-19, 01:04 PM

OP, please calm down and treat the thread with some manner of respect. If this is how you talk to your group then I would understand why the guy dislikes you. At any rate:

I would boot both of you, were I the DM. If you talk like this at all during your playtime then you would be gone, and if he's playing League during non-combat then he'd also be gone. Problem solved!

More seriously: The only way to solve this is to talk to the group as a whole - everyone, including the DM and the player you don't like - and bring up your issues in a non-confrontational way. The key word there is non-confrontational. If you start swearing about how much of a jerk he is or something, then you're the bad guy all of a sudden and you're gone.

Also: Summoners are far and away one of the most powerful ways of playing the game for most people. So yes, you're almost absolutely outshining the martials with what you're doing. D&D is a game of action economy, and summoners win that game by default.

Deadline

2017-11-19, 01:57 PM

Never. Never ever. I only play d&d to summon. {Scrubbed} My enjoyment of the game is just as important as yours and I'm not gonna change how I play because you think suboptimal damage or trap triggering (not removal because I can't disable resetting traps) is game hogging in which case you're no better than him.

I am tilted right now so my tone is harsh.

I'm a bit confused here as to how your attitude is any different than the player you don't like. They sound identical, with the only difference being a preference for mundane vs. summoning. Admittedly I may be missing something, I only have your posts to go on.

You're right, I'd be only doing that to relieve my stress and that would make me look like the bad guy.

It doesn't just make you look like the bad guy. It makes you the bad guy. I really can't recommend it. You won't get the kind of stress relief you are after, and you will make the game worse for everyone (including yourself). And if the player you are upset with is really doing this just to upset you, then you'll be giving him exactly the reaction he's after.

Galacktic has a solid suggestion. Talk to the group as a whole. Ask the various players if they are happy with your interactions and playstyle. For example, ask the rogue if he feels marginalized by your trap-triggering (i.e. "Mundane player seems concerned that I'm taking away your fun by having my summons trigger traps. It's not my intent to do so, but is it bothering you?"). Ask the players if they are upset with your summoning. If you can have a civil discussion with the group, and this individual is really the only one unhappy with you (and remains unhappy even after he sees that no one else has an issue), then you have only two options. Ignore him (like the other players do), or vote with your feet and leave.

magicalmagicman

2017-11-19, 02:22 PM

I'm a bit confused here as to how your attitude is any different than the player you don't like. They sound identical, with the only difference being a preference for mundane vs. summoning. Admittedly I may be missing something, I only have your posts to go on.

It doesn't just make you look like the bad guy. It makes you the bad guy. I really can't recommend it. You won't get the kind of stress relief you are after, and you will make the game worse for everyone (including yourself). And if the player you are upset with is really doing this just to upset you, then you'll be giving him exactly the reaction he's after.

Galacktic has a solid suggestion. Talk to the group as a whole. Ask the various players if they are happy with your interactions and playstyle. For example, ask the rogue if he feels marginalized by your trap-triggering (i.e. "Mundane player seems concerned that I'm taking away your fun by having my summons trigger traps. It's not my intent to do so, but is it bothering you?"). Ask the players if they are upset with your summoning. If you can have a civil discussion with the group, and this individual is really the only one unhappy with you (and remains unhappy even after he sees that no one else has an issue), then you have only two options. Ignore him (like the other players do), or vote with your feet and leave.

Like I said all the other players have no problem with me. When he said I was "f***ing taking the fun out of the game" the first time I suggested we use a water elemental to trigger traps, i was surprised, confused, and backed down. Then I talked to everyone and no one gave a damn about triggering traps with water elementals. He was literally the only one b****ing even when he did absolutely nothing the entire session and was playing other games while we were scouting and solving puzzles. The rogue actually told me to continue doing what I'm doing because this was the first time he saw an offensive blaster summon cleric and was loving it, and the archer said this was the first time he saw a water devotion cleric. There is absolutely no problem with me and the rest of the party. This is also why I am really ticked off. There was no problem, there never was a problem, yet he made me feel like there was with his b****ing. He's the only one with the problem, and it's not because of anything I did but because he thinks there is a massive difference between killing a guy with a sword and killing a guy with a wolf bite.

So my choices are to speak my mind the next time he swears at my summons, quietly tell the DM I'm getting fed up with his attitude, or I ruin his d&d experience, and everyone in this thread is telling me the last option is a very bad idea and rightly so.

Deadline

2017-11-19, 02:56 PM

Like I said all the other players have no problem with me. When he said I was "f***ing taking the fun out of the game" the first time I suggested we use a water elemental to trigger traps, i was surprised, confused, and backed down. Then I talked to everyone and no one gave a damn about triggering traps with water elementals. He was literally the only one b****ing even when he did absolutely nothing the entire session and was playing other games while we were scouting and solving puzzles. The rogue actually told me to continue doing what I'm doing because this was the first time he saw an offensive blaster summon cleric and was loving it, and the archer said this was the first time he saw a water devotion cleric. There is absolutely no problem with me and the rest of the party.

The important part of having this discussion with the entire group is that he hears that none of the other players have an issue with it. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

He's the only one with the problem, and it's not because of anything I did but because he thinks there is a massive difference between killing a guy with a sword and killing a guy with a wolf bite.

I have yet to meet many people who are truly "just an a**hole". Or, to put it another way, "No one thinks they are the villain of their story." There is most certainly a cause for his behavior, and you seem to be at the center of it (or at least, a convenient person for him to vent his frustrations on). To be clear, I'm not saying it's your fault. If you don't try to find out why he's behaving the way he is, you are never going to get to a satisfactory resolution. Just more of the same. And to be clear, I'm not saying that there is a way for all of this to resolve cleanly either. But you won't know if you don't try. Maybe he thinks he's protecting the other players from what he sees as a fun-killing power gamer (which would make the discussion with the whole group beneficial, so he can see that isn't the case). Maybe he's got a huge chip on his shoulder about players who play magic classes, in which case not being a tremendous a**hole to him will go a long way towards dispelling that. Maybe he's got some crap he's dealing with in his life, and has decided to dump on you in an effort to relieve his frustration (which sucks, because it isn't going to work, and he'll just keep doing it). If you respond to him with disdain and belligerence, it will just reinforce to him that he was right about you.

My point being, if you want things to improve with the group, you have a plethora of options to try. If that doesn't appeal, you could just leave the group and not play with someone you consider to be toxic. If you don't want to leave or for things to improve and just want to dismiss him as an a**hole, well, you can do that too. If that latter decision works out for you, please let me know, because it's a heck of a lot easier to do that than to try and be the bigger person.

Wraith

2017-11-19, 03:10 PM

The next time he swears I will slip the DM a message saying this is really starting to piss me off.

This is the key to the advice that I would give you in this situation; do not make the argument about your opposed philosophies or play styles, make it about documented and inarguably hostile events.

You have talked to the player, and that's good; he sounds as though he has dug his heels in, refused to acknowledge that he is guilty of the same sin that you are (him telling you not to use your summoned creatures is exactly the same complaint as you telling him he should be flanking/moving out of your way) and tried to make a problem at the table all about his perception of you rather than addressing your concerns.

You have talked to the other players; they don't have a problem with what you are doing, but are similarly not so riled by him. They have shown no favouritism either way, so by trying to 'get him in trouble' you will risk appearing manipulative and bullying a 'noob', so do not go down that route without clear cut examples rather than tit-for-tat sniping.

Now you should go to the DM specifically. Tell him/her what you like about their game; that you're free to play the character YOU want, that he sets up interesting puzzles and allows for creative solutions that other DM's might railroad away from, and that you appreciate them being welcoming to everyone at the table.
With that said, then reiterate the problems with the other player - NOT that you disagree with how to play each others' characters, but how you think that shouting and swearing at you is rude and disrespectful, and how the player's hostility is making you unhappy. DO NOT tell the DM that they have to kick the player - that might be taken as a "him or me" ultimatum and even if you 'win' it will foster bad blood among the rest of the group. Rather, ask them to intervene and keep the table civil; that if the player swears, would he please ask him to stop? And if he shouts, that he is asked to calm down and interact with the group in a grown-up manner.

This way, you're addressing the actual problems with the player - everyone disagrees sometimes, and that's fine, but being yelled at is unacceptable and should not be tolerated.
The best case scenario in this, is that the player recognises the DM as the 'authority' at the table and starts to act less hostile, which is something you can tolerate more easily. At worst he will ignore the DM and then you have a bona fide Problem Player who is ignoring the DM's requests to refrain from attacking you, and THEN you can make a case to the DM and other players about giving the guy the boot. If the other players are made specifically aware that you are being made unhappy and the the DM's reasonable requests for civility are being ignored, they may be less inclined to remain neutral in the matter.

In the mean time, do not give the guy any ammunition. If he swears or shouts at you, ask someone else to intervene so that you don't find yourself getting angry and responding in kind. If he launches into an essay about how your way of playing your character in the game is "wrong", let him finish, tell him "you are free to play your character how you wish, please allow me to do the same" and then ignore him. Literally; carry on doing whatever you were going to do before, provided of course that you remain conscientious of whether or not the rest of the party aren't being overstepped.

Because he can't tell you how to play your character, any more than you can tell him how to play his.

Don't engage him on anything other than the subject at hand. Don't shout back. Don't make spiteful little comments about your previous disagreements and turn them into new arguments. Make it about the anti-social issues specifically and address them directly with an aim to finding a direct solution, not just pointing and going "see! I told you I was right!".

King of Nowhere

2017-11-19, 03:11 PM

Boot the idiot. I'm guessing this guy is a massive jerk out of game too, and since he clearly has no interest in playing a friendly game with the rest of you, don't hang out with him anymore. D&D is a social game and if he wants to be an antisocial prick, let him be antisocial somewhere you don't have to put up with his nonsense.

It's funny how D&D is considered by many to be a game for social outcasts, and yet it is actually a social game involving more social skills than, say, any of the sports that the supposedly cool people play.

I can't ask for a boot because he has 0 interactions with the other party members. My other party members are nice guys who don't want to take extreme measures and since they have no interactions with him they don't really hate him. Emphasis on my party members being nice guys. He'll have to repeatedly offend them and ignore their advice for a boot to happen, which isn't gonna happen anytime soon since they don't care that he zones out until his turn in combat.

edit: Oh and I did talk to him. That's how i know he thinks mundanes are kings and summoned creatures are npcs.

I am a nice guy. Everybody tell me I am too nice. I am trying to learn to be less nice because I became a teacher and when I am my usual nice my students are walking all over me.
And I would boot this guy in no time. Really, you go play a game with friends and then you play LoL? I would even understand a game where you could even interact with the party - one of my fellow players play chess online on his mobile when out of action, but he still talk with us and we never have to repeat anything; it grates me, but it's ok. But LoL requires a level of concentration that leaves no space for interaction with others (supposedly also chess, but the slow rithm of the moves let you put a lot of friendly banter in between. Sometimes our chess club resembles more a cabaret circle).
So, playing lol during the game is an instant-ban offence for me, no way.
Also, 7 is a really big number for a group. It means longer waits during turns, and it means that less people can take the spotlight outside of combat. It's hard to run a game of 7 without someone feeling ignored. It's also hard to craft an encounter that can be decently challenging without killing anyone. Downsizing the group may be best for all in any case.
That said, everybody else is giving good advice. Talk with the group, more than once if necessary, until one of three outcomes is reached:
1) you and this guy start getting along 2) he is booted 3) you leave the group

Finally, you come across as pretty aggressive. Maybe it's just that you're venting out frustration, but the person coming off from your posts isn't one that get along well with others. You say that the other players have nothing against you, but hey, they have nothing against the other player either, so it doesn't mean much. You'd probably have to stab them for them to have a problem with you.

magicalmagicman

2017-11-19, 03:23 PM

Finally, you come across as pretty aggressive. Maybe it's just that you're venting out frustration, but the person coming off from your posts isn't one that get along well with others. You say that the other players have nothing against you, but hey, they have nothing against the other player either, so it doesn't mean much. You'd probably have to stab them for them to have a problem with you.

You are correct this is venting/frustration. I am not a good talker and I am not good with confrontation. It's much easier for me to type than to talk and since I am comfortable in this forum I ranted here.

Thanks for your advices. Cooler heads telling me what not to do and what to do stops me from doing something out of spite/rage.

Elkad

2017-11-19, 05:45 PM

Kill the player and take his stuff.

You were almost right.
Kill the character and take his stuff.

Nifft

2017-11-19, 05:48 PM

You were almost right.
Kill the character and take his stuff.

Can't use that color, I'm not actually a mod.

Tohsaka Rin

2017-11-19, 11:28 PM

Can't use that color, I'm not actually a mod.

The joke is you said to kill the player, the other poster said to kill the character.

There's a markedly large difference between the two actions.

magicalmagicman: Really, just keep playing as a team player. Provide flanks, help out the tank, etc. When the problem player complains and swears, politely ask them not to cuss you out, and especially not for supporting other players.

Don't raise your voice, don't swear back, don't back down, don't instigate, don't confront. Be firm, and clear. "Please don't swear at me over a game, and don't get mad at me for supporting the team the best I'm able."

Eventually, the rest of the players at the table are going to see a well-mannered team player being constantly harassed and cussed at by a jerk that can't even bother to play the game half of the time.

From there, the problem should self-correct: Either he'll back off, or he'll go too far and get booted.

Some players are just jerks, it's sad, but sometimes it's true. For whatever reason, some players have issues, and bring it to the table, and make it everyone else's problem.

To anyone who disagrees, check for the problem player/DM threads on the board. There's quite a few horror stories to be had, sometimes it doesn't take two to tango, just one person hogging the stage.

Nifft

2017-11-19, 11:51 PM

The joke is you said to kill the player, the other poster said to kill the character.

There's a markedly large difference between the two actions.
I figured he'd just made a typo, and I didn't want to be an ass about it.

But if there's any confusion, let me settle it: there's no mistake in my post.

The blue-for-sarcasm post was about killing the problem player, and was offered in sincerest sarcasm, with the expectation of not leading to murder in spite of recommending such due to the common understanding of sarcasm.

Let's be honest though: killing the character is also terrible advice.

Roland St. Jude

2017-11-20, 02:18 AM

Sheriff: Please curb the profanity in this thread, particularly the circumventing the forum filter to communicate profanities. Also, please be civil on this forum.

frogglesmash

2017-11-20, 04:10 AM

Based on how unreasonable this player seems to be, I would suggest against having a discussion about his behaviour with the whole group as it could easily lead him to anger. Instead I would just continue playing as you are with a caveats.

1. Remain calm and pleasant no matter how aggressive he gets, this will either accentuate just how unreasonable he is being, or he will not get as angry as you will not be feeding into his anger. Note: This is arguably the most important part.
2. Any time he claims you are "ruining everyone else's fun" simply ask the rest of the group whether this is true," do this immediately, and in a manner that makes it clear you are willing to modify your playstyle if it turns out that he is correct.
3. Avoid asking him to do anything, if he's not happy letting you play how you like, he's definitely not going to be okay with you telling him how to play.

If you do all this, he will either modify his behaviour due to unspoken pressure from the group, or he will worsen everyone's opinion of him to the point where giving him the boot will be a unanimous decision.

Ieagleroar

2017-11-20, 05:27 AM

Initially, I was going to suggest a logically sound option; a detailed post on OP's options, and how you could possibly deal with it, providing many solutions that I've seen successfully utilized in my experiences... but then I read the comments. Sounds like you don't want to change, but rather just want Him to change. In which case, normal advice that has been given prior to my post won't do squat, because it has all been about how to take action yourself, and fix the problem, rather than how to make the problem player change into what you want. However, Ieagleroar is to the rescue!!!

Here's a list of things on how to change the other player, without having to fix anything about yourself expend much effort, sorted into easy categories!

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS FOR AMUSEMENT PURPOSES ONLY!!! (Last thing I need is for some idiot to actually to my advice seriously and then try to sue me or something)

Player Removal:
-Hire a hitman
-Run him over with a car
-Invite him to a firing range and have an 'accident'
-Invite him to a firing range and have an 'on purpose'
-Run him over with a bus
-Throw him off a cliff
-Throw him off a building
-Frame him for a felony
-Take a newspaper, fertilizer, cotton, and diesel fuel. Make a bomb. Make alot more. Blow him up.
-Take an egg, flour, sugar, and butter. Make a cake. Make a lot more. Give him diabetes.

Player Behavior Changes
-Become a brain surgeon, and transplant his brain with someone's you like.
-Become a mad scientist, and research ways to make clones. Become a brain surgeon. Transplant his brain with your clone's.
-Become a mad scientist, and research ways to make clones.Play with yourself Create your own group of only you.
-Introduce alcohol to your gaming table.
-Introduce marijuana to your gaming table.
-Introduce girls to your gaming table. (I understand some of the readers of my post won't know what a 'girl' is. Let's just say, they are mythical creatures that are said to be more fun than D&D. It's probably BS but who knows, right?)
-Cast Dominate Person on him (the player, not the PC) and make him do exactly what you want him to.

These are just my ideas, but maybe I have it all wrong. I'm only a bartender, what the hell would I know about inter-personal relationships. :smalltongue:

Pleh

2017-11-20, 05:42 AM

If you aren't having fun, you leave the group.

Give your friends a chance to do something about it. Tell them, "If I can't play my character, I'm not gonna play at all."

Then it will be up to the group to decide if they want to let you leave or do something to change things.

weckar

2017-11-20, 07:31 AM

One thing that is not clear to me in this topic and REALLY matters to understand the situation: When you summon, how many creatures do you tend to summon at once?

Calthropstu

2017-11-20, 07:56 AM

I play a sorcerer who specialized in summons in pfs, and my turns are actually among the shortest at the table. With a good amount of prep even with 10 creatures under your control, you can reduce it to "Ok my creatires take a swing. My lowest is x, my highest y. Do any hit/miss? Middle is Z... ok I have 4 hits damage is ..."
Requires a lot of dice and a fair amount of space, but time shouldn't be an issue.

I HAVE run into problems where I blocked the melee guys from getting into the fray. I summon 1d3+1 each action and usually spend 2 -4 rounds summoning in large fights, so the battlefield gets crowded. When it gets to the point where people complain, dismiss a few.

Casting around players is difficult. In another campaign I play a psion with a 40 foot radius burst power... centered on me. Do you know how hard it is to get your pc 40 feet away from all allies? If it's a small change that will wreck the battlefield, the mage shouting "hold off a second" and blasting an area should be sound strategy.

To be fair, we only have one side of the story. But I have played with extreme jerks before and know the feeling... but usually the extreme jerks are the ones who play high optimization. Sounds like your jerk isn't just jerky he's stupid too. Don't **** with the spellcasters, they will end up overshadowing you.

I will play devil's advocate here. If this guy is truly a new player, "adapt" to what his character does by casting hold person on him before the fighting starts. Then, when it's time for him to rush in, dismiss it. The humiliation will either lead to some real talk or it will lead to him retaliating and you obliterating him (make sure to have fly, protection from arrows and dispel magic for when he tries to use a potion).
This is ASSUMING he is truly a new player. Don't be a jerk about it either, state "we need to weaken them before charging and you refuse to hold off. So I am forcing you to hold off before you get us all killed."
Make it about tactics, not personal. If you make it personal, it will devolve into hurt feelings.

If this guy has played before, then he is being obtuse and kill that bastard before booting him.

magicalmagicman

2017-11-20, 10:59 AM

One thing that is not clear to me in this topic and REALLY matters to understand the situation: When you summon, how many creatures do you tend to summon at once?

I'm using conjure ice beast II, so it's either 1 hippogriff ice beast with engulf or frigid touch, or 2 ice wolves with 1d6 ice auras or Ice Breathes. Ice auras did cause zoning issues so I stopped using them and instead started spamming Fiery Burst and used the ice wolves as AoO triggering meat shield flankers. I never had more than 2 monsters summoned at a time because I never used more than 1 spell in an encounter.

I was using the ice wolves as a damage overtime fireball that did cold damage since this is one of the most spell-slot efficient blasting options at low levels. So against 6 enemies, the ice wolves would distract 2 enemies and aura them to death, but when the 4 mundanes killed the other 4 enemies really quickly sometimes through good rolls, this shifter would jump in the cold aura to attack the remaining 2, get cold aura damage, and then get angry. This was when we had our first discussion about how my wolves were different from a fireball. Just to be clear, I don't do friendly fire, so I either only summon Hippogriffs in small areas and spam fiery burst, or summon ice wolves in huge areas against large groups of enemies where I know there will be no friendly fire and the party needs distractions to not get swarmed.

All the other party members either position themselves on one side of the remaining enemies so I can aura them without hurting them, or do readied actions and waited for the 2-3 round duration of the ice wolves to end.

But our talk about him positioning for my AoE attacks was actually for fiery burst, NOT ice wolf aura. I asked the team to stand in an X formation instead of a + formation so I can fiery burst without hurting anyone, but that's when he said mundanes shouldn't do anything for spellcasters and it is spellcasters who should adjust to mundanes, and said no.

Anyways he was swearing at my water elementals from water devotion which was from level 1-2 and he said summons turned the game into a selfish tactics rpg for me when i was level 1-2. Even at level 1-2 I never had more than 2 water elementals out, and they actually saved our party's ass several times by being tanks. 7 v.s. 7 in levels 1-2 usually results in a player death but my water elementals prevented that by distracting half the enemies.

King of Nowhere

2017-11-20, 11:31 AM

-Introduce girls to your gaming table. (I understand some of the readers of my post won't know what a 'girl' is. Let's just say, they are mythical creatures that are said to be more fun than D&D. It's probably BS but who knows, right?)

Girls are more fun than D&D only if they want to play D&D with you.
- become a mad scientist, find a serum that will make girls like D&D.
- become a public talker, convince girls that D&D is a social game and they should totally like it
- become a public talker, persuade people that nerds are smart and reliable and make the best boyfriends

King of Nowhere

2017-11-20, 11:37 AM

Just to be clear, I don't do friendly fire, so I either only summon Hippogriffs in small areas and spam fiery burst, or summon ice wolves in huge areas against large groups of enemies where I know there will be no friendly fire and the party needs distractions to not get swarmed.

What's wrong with friendly fire?
My monk absolutely loves being hit by friendly fire. He has the saving throws to survive it, it puts him in a perfect position to trip/stun/grapple the enemy boss (generally a spellcaster who passed the saving throw against the area spell) without being killed by surrounding mooks (who will fail the saving throw), and it makes him look like a total badass :smallcool::smallbiggrin:
He's all like "cast stinking cloud centered on me", "fireball me", "cast prismatic spray, I don't mind being caught in the effect". Sometimes he tanks the saving throw, and then hilarity ensues, so it's a win-win situation

magicalmagicman

2017-11-20, 11:43 AM

What's wrong with friendly fire?
My monk absolutely loves being hit by friendly fire. He has the saving throws to survive it, it puts him in a perfect position to trip/stun/grapple the enemy boss (generally a spellcaster who passed the saving throw against the area spell) without being killed by surrounding mooks (who will fail the saving throw), and it makes him look like a total badass :smallcool::smallbiggrin:
He's all like "cast stinking cloud centered on me", "fireball me", "cast prismatic spray, I don't mind being caught in the effect". Sometimes he tanks the saving throw, and then hilarity ensues, so it's a win-win situation

The first and only time I inflicted friendly fire was with fiery burst when our party surrounded a tough enemy in a + formation. I hit our rogue, who built to have crazy high ac and reflex. He made the save and only took 2 damage, but he didn't like it. Ignoring the problem player shifter yelling saying you should never inflict friendly fire, the rogue told me he did not enjoy it even if my cleric healed his character afterwards, so I promised never to inflict friendly fire again, at which point I asked them to stand in an X formation instead of a + formation next time so I can help kill the guy.

King of Nowhere

2017-11-20, 12:45 PM

The first and only time I inflicted friendly fire was with fiery burst when our party surrounded a tough enemy in a + formation. I hit our rogue, who built to have crazy high ac and reflex. He made the save and only took 2 damage, but he didn't like it. Ignoring the problem player shifter yelling saying you should never inflict friendly fire, the rogue told me he did not enjoy it even if my cleric healed his character afterwards, so I promised never to inflict friendly fire again, at which point I asked them to stand in an X formation instead of a + formation next time so I can help kill the guy.
meh. looks like your group has many disfunctionalities. I've never seen a tank who wasn't willing to take some collateral damage if it hit a half dozen monsters too. and rogues are tanks when it comes to ref saves.

DEMON

2017-11-20, 01:38 PM

meh. looks like your group has many disfunctionalities. I've never seen a tank who wasn't willing to take some collateral damage if it hit a half dozen monsters too. and rogues are tanks when it comes to ref saves.

To demonstrate: Panel #8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1104.html).

Though, again. Talking helps. Telling the player you were counting on him making the save (evasion, good ref save) and planned on healing any damage you might cause him right after the encounter is a good way to make him understand you didn't "nuke" him just so you could participate in the encounter.

jdizzlean

2017-11-20, 03:13 PM

You were almost right.
Kill the character and take his stuff.

What's wrong with friendly fire?
My monk absolutely loves being hit by friendly fire. He has the saving throws to survive it, it puts him in a perfect position to trip/stun/grapple the enemy boss (generally a spellcaster who passed the saving throw against the area spell) without being killed by surrounding mooks (who will fail the saving throw), and it makes him look like a total badass :smallcool::smallbiggrin:
He's all like "cast stinking cloud centered on me", "fireball me", "cast prismatic spray, I don't mind being caught in the effect". Sometimes he tanks the saving throw, and then hilarity ensues, so it's a win-win situation

i currently play a druid, who at level 5 is mostly a BFC or summoner, i think i have 3 offensive spells at this point. I have had some issues w/ fellow players running head first into an entangle, or into impeding stones to attack enemies when the others have gone down. Occasionally they fail their saves. But they do it after being warned that they're running into an AoE..

No one gets butthurt when the plants want to say hello, or they get to spend some face to floor time w/ the stones. I'll drop the effects when it's no longer beneficial to the party as a whole, but not just because the warpriest is on his ass instead of facebeating a bad guy.

Likewise, when I'm reduced to shooting stones w/ my slightly less then trusty sling, I do my 1 attack and let the group take a turn. It's called give and take. There are encounters where a flaming sphere totally negates everyone else, and encounters where all i can do is throw a stone becuase the DM has found a way to negate my animal companion, and i'm still new to SNA so I tend to forget about it instead of summoning swarms of wolves every round.

To directly address your problem, I would tend to lean towards the kill the pc and take his stuff route, but that makes you evil.. or at least devious.

Try having your DM directly involve him in more things in the group besides Ung hit meanie w/ stick in face til fall over. If he refuses to connect w/ anything going on until it's his turn, then force him into the group. If that doesn't work, or he won't put his phone/tablet down, then either ignor him, or go about your plan to negate him.

Being an adult about the situation is great, but if it's not working, take the path that will.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Elkad

2017-11-20, 04:04 PM

I figured he'd just made a typo, and I didn't want to be an ass about it.

But if there's any confusion, let me settle it: there's no mistake in my post.

The blue-for-sarcasm post was about killing the problem player, and was offered in sincerest sarcasm, with the expectation of not leading to murder in spite of recommending such due to the common understanding of sarcasm.

Let's be honest though: killing the character is also terrible advice.

Your sarcasm was appreciated. And no, I didn't "typo" it. I changed it to a non-sarcastic answer.

PvP (though that should be CvC in this context) IS a valid answer. Not in every case, but in a fair amount. Quite often it actually improves the game. And much like the old saw about kids getting in a playground fight and then becoming best friends, it often resolves the player conflict without someone leaving.

I'd start with a more passive-aggressive approach though.
Say "I'm fireballing this area on my turn, stay clear guys!" And if he runs in, throw the fireball anyway. (Or grease, black tentacles, solid fog, whatever...)

Zanos

2017-11-20, 05:07 PM

SangoProduction

2017-11-20, 05:19 PM

I can't ask for a boot because he has 0 interactions with the other party members. My other party members are nice guys who don't want to take extreme measures and since they have no interactions with him they don't really hate him. Emphasis on my party members being nice guys. He'll have to repeatedly offend them and ignore their advice for a boot to happen, which isn't gonna happen anytime soon since they don't care that he zones out until his turn in combat.

edit: Oh and I did talk to him. That's how i know he thinks mundanes are kings and summoned creatures are npcs.

Tell your friends about his making your experience negative, and seeming to not give a damn about the game. Even if they don't want to kick them, they can help you talk to him, and group pressure tends to be more effective than talking to an obstinate person 1 on 1.

Elkad

2017-11-20, 05:21 PM

For what it's worth I sympathize with this guy somewhat, he is right that summoners are frequently a problematic archetype because they consume spotlight and, more importantly, time. Between looking for monster stats and deciding on actions and actually resolving the actions, it's pretty common for summoners to take forever to resolve all their turns.

Unprepared summoners. OP apparently plays summoners basically exclusively. Which means it's likely he has a huge library of prepped creature sheets, and is intimately familiar with his favorites. And in a 7-player game, he's got a lot of time between rounds to preplan his next move.
Of course when one guy (probably on the initiative directly before you) insists on running into the middle of the area you are targeting, you get another delay while you fix that.

Otherwise it goes smoothly, except those rare instances where he needs some extra time because the DM actually made him think on the fly and summon something abnormal, but in my experience when the Druid grinds the game to a halt while she looks up the stats for a shark because I've dumped them in a waterfight, it's no longer a delay than the Party Muscle deciding that this is the perfect time for a bull rush, which he's never even read the rules for, much less attempted before.