How Much "Monkey's Paw" for a Wish Spell?

[Avonar]

A while back, we were playing in a game with our characters having reached level 20. Along the way my sorceror had picked up Wish as a 9th level spell. Our DM really seemed to like the Monkey's Paw idea, granting a wish but doing it in a way that while it technically meets the wording, it is not what you want (for example from another character, wishing to be ageless and being put into the body of a prisoner, trapped forever and not aging).

Looking back, I wonder if doing this for the Wish spell is the right way to go about it. This isn't something granted by a third party wanting to mess with you, this is from you. And excluding the 8th level or lower spell deal it has some huge in built drawbacks, weakening you AND with a 33% you can never cast it again. Surely that by casting the Wish, some of your intention would be put into the spell, instead of uttering words into the ether and having them interpreted by...something.

So how would you guys run a Wish spell? Would you allow leeway in the wording based on what you know the character is trying to achieve, or would you simply take them as literally as possible and punish bad wordplay?

[Eradis]

I'd probably start by insisting that the use of this spell is a delicate thing and misinterpretation could be a dangerous thing. Going from that point, it would mostly depend on how careful the players really are. If it's a honest mistake while wording, I'd go for the intended meaning. If they lack seriousness in character or try to precipitate the spell, then sorry boyo, but you ask to always keep your blood cold, your problem that you are now forever frozen.

I haven't paid lot of attention to that spell though. Of what I understood it is a powerful spell that should be beneficial to the caster and not some disguised curse called a wish (from a djinn for example).

[Hrugner]

I agree that the whole monkey's paw thing should be reserved for granted wish spells and not those you cast yourself. It seems like a fun thing for the DM, but a sorcerer spending one of their precious high level spells on the DM's toy seems a bit silly.

[NecroDancer]

Wish can also duplicate any other 1st-8th level spell so if your DM likes to mess with the wish you are still ok to use it for other things.

[CantigThimble]

Any use of wish other than replicating a spell I would treat as "Invoke Plot". If a player gives me a simple, meaningful wish that will make for a good story, then I will hand them their wish on a silver platter, possibly with beneficial side effects. If they give me some attempt to gain limitless power or other BS, then I will hunt down whatever loopholes I can find and tear them apart.

When you cast "Invoke Plot" you are inviting the intervention of a great and terrible god, hope your offering pleases him.

[Avonar]

Any use of wish other than replicating a spell I would treat as "Invoke Plot". If a player gives me a simple, meaningful wish that will make for a good story, then I will hand them their wish on a silver platter, possibly with beneficial side effects. If they give me some attempt to gain limitless power or other BS, then I will hunt down whatever loopholes I can find and tear them apart.

When you cast "Invoke Plot" you are inviting the intervention of a great and terrible god, hope your offering pleases him.

That seems fair. And honestly, using Wish for power gain is probably the least interesting use of the spell. It's a potentially one-off "Meaningfully change the world" button. So instead of using it to gain enough power to kill the evil thing attacking the city, try and see if you can move the whole goddamn city.

Eventually I think I wasted using Wish because of being worried about consequences being added on by the DM. I ended up losing the spell to a "Heal the whole party" wish (an option listed on the spell), entirely uninteresting but my only safe option that wouldn't risk killing us.

[Laserlight]

Depends on what the player does.
If they ask for something reasonable, they get it; if I tack anything else on, it's purely a plot device, not just to screw the player.
If they ask for something OP, I'll tell them that they are familiar enough with the spell to know that it might break, and ask if they'd like to revise their wish.
If they insist on Ultimate Power, or do something like "I wish according to the terms of this document in my hand" and surprise me with two pages of pseudo legalese in 8 point font, then they deserve what they get.

[Chugger]

Depends on what the player does.
If they ask for something reasonable, they get it; if I tack anything else on, it's purely a plot device, not just to screw the player.
If they ask for something OP, I'll tell them that they are familiar enough with the spell to know that it might break, and ask if they'd like to revise their wish.
If they insist on Ultimate Power, or do something like "I wish according to the terms of this document in my hand" and surprise me with two pages of pseudo legalese in 8 point font, then they deserve what they get.

If a malevolent being who hates the character is granting the wish, sure - mess with them all you want. The player should know better than accepting a wish from such a corrupt source. Any wish can be twisted.

If a wish comes from a spell - this makes no sense unless the wish is worded so poorly it's the only way to interpret it. There are sadistic DMs out there; do you want to be one of them? I don't see how they keep players at their table, frankly - as I don't see how DMs who are too easy do the same.

[Pex]

The Wish spell does not give the player permission to Win D&D. The player who does deserves his character's fate.

The Wish spell does not give the DM permission to fornicate over the PC. The DM who does does not deserve to be DM.

[Ventruenox]

Even though this was written back when Gygax was still dice slinging, this was from the best article ever written on the Wish spell. Please pardon or ignore the 1st edition jargon.

The General Principles of a Wish

I: Wishes are 9th level magic spells and are limited in power accordingly...
There is no such thing in the AD&D™ rules as a 10th-level spell, or any form of magical energy which is more potent than a 9th-level spell. If a Wish was unlimited in power, it would be theoretically possible for it to have the energy of a 10th-level spell — but then the Wish spell itself would have to be considered a 10th-level spell, and that is a contradiction. Using the same reasoning, a Limited Wish is limited in scope and power to what can be accomplished with the energy of a 7th-level spell. In addition to these general limitations, there are specific instances cited in the AD&D rules where the use of a Wish is impossible or ineffective.

II: Wishes cannot change what has already happened, but they can be used to alter or negate the result of some prior happening.
If, for example, someone has been disintegrated, nothing short of divine intervention can change that fact: he has been disintegrated. The result of this occurrence, however, can be nullified by a Wish which causes the body of the victim to be reintegrated (see Principle VIII).

III: Wishes can not directly affect that which will happen, except in the sense that everything that will happen is a direct result of what is and has been happening.
A Wish has no real power to affect anything except at the precise moment it is uttered (see Principle II). Therefore, a Wish for a specific occurrence or situation to come about in the future — but not at the time the Wish is actually made — would have the effect of placing the wisher in circumstances at the present time that would most possibly bring about the desired end after the passage of the intervening time, but would not and could not constitute a guarantee that the desired event will happen.

IV: Wishes are bound by the laws under which they themselves are brought and used.
In most AD&D universes, this will mean that a Wish cannot make something out of nothing or vice versa. For the creation of food, water, soft goods and other such items, raw materials (carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen) are usually available in abundance. However, the creation of a certain amount of iron, copper, gold, platinum, or other valuable materials is much more difficult because of the relative scarcity of such items. In any event, the creation of a quantity of material which is greater in mass than the spellcaster or wisher will be considered much more complex and energy-draining than the alternative of teleporting the wisher to the desired substance or vice versa (see Principle VI). For purposes of this determination, all magical items and all living beings (with the exception of the character using the Wish) are considered to be of infinite mass; that is, the creation of such items by a Wish is essentially impossible, since the energy of a Wish is not also infinite.

V: Wishes have no power or authority over the abstract, the insubstantial, or non-concrete.In particular, a Wish cannot grant ownership, titles, or other stations which require an authority to confer them upon someone else. Nor can they remove such titles and privileges, either from the wisher or others. If a Wish deals wholly or primarily with abstract, intangible considerations, there can be no certainty that the Wish will achieve the desired end; at best, the Wish will put the wisher into circumstances which have the greatest possibility of achieving that end (see Principle III).

VI: Wishes will always act in the simplest manner possible while abiding by the wording of the Wish itself.
If a desired end may be accomplished with a lower-level spell than the wisher had in mind, for instance, and the means to achieve that end was not fully specified in the Wish, then the lower-level spell will be used. In general, the more mass or energy involved in the fulfillment of a Wish, the more complex the undertaking will be. “Creation” (see Principle IV) of a substance or material is more difficult than molecular rearrangement which might accomplish the same purpose. Molecular rearrangement is more difficult than destruction, destruction is more difficult than the teleportation of something, and teleportation is more difficult than simple enlightenment or knowledge given to the wisher.

VII: Wishes are general-purpose spells, and as such may be used voluntarily in a number of ways, with varying chances for success.
To employ this principle properly, it is necessary to determine at what level of power the magic operates to cause the fulfillment of a particular wish. If the method involves the magic of a known spell, the level of the magic is easily determined from the rules; new spells or other types of magic will have to be compared to existing spells and magic by the DM before determining the level of magic involved.Often, but not always, when a spell level lower than the Wish itself is used to achieve the desired end, the manifestation of the magic will be similar to the spell in question but in an improved form (for instance, teleportation with no chance for error) because of the extra power of the Wish spell itself above and beyond the energy needed to make the wish come true. Spells which are “improved” in this manner are generally those of levels where the chance for success is 100%.

VIII: Wishes will rarely achieve more than one end and never more than two.
All spells are formulated to achieve a specific purpose, whether it be to neutralize poison in some creature, charm a hostile group of opponents, or restore life in an individual. It is not beyond the power of a Wish to reintegrate a character and even restore life to his body (constitution check applicable); even though those are two distinctly separate acts, they both contribute to the fulfillment of a specific purpose. In contrast, it would not be possible for a single Wish to teleport a group of characters out of the middle of a melee to a place of safety, accompanied by all the opponents’ treasure (which, at the time of the Wish, is still in the possession of the opponents).
In any case except the most simply worded wishes, the DM will have to weigh the Wish in terms of how many ends it is designed to achieve. For example, how many dead characters can a Wish bring back to life all at once? The answer varies: If the deaths were all due to a single incident such as a cave-in, or if they all occurred within the same short period of time during melee, a Wish would probably be permitted to save all the victims, since only the effect of one short span of time is being altered, and in that respect only one end is being achieved. On the other hand, if half of a group of characters died in a cave-in and the other half in a run-in with an umber hulk, only one group of victims would be able, to be brought back to life with a single Wish — altering one occurrence, not two, and achieving only one end instead of two distinctly different purposes.

IX: Wishes will fulfill, to the limits of their power, not only the desired end but the means by which that end is brought about.
The wording of this Principle implies that a Wish spell has reasoning power of its own which enables it to make a “choice” between various methods of achieving a desired end, and perhaps even distort or depart from the wording of the wish. This is NOT so!
A good example of the improper distortion of a Wish is the character who wishes for a demon to serve him as a slave — and gets sent to the Abyss to pick one out. Some DMs consider this a fair interpretation, claiming that it does not violate the wording of the wish. While this may be technically true (depending upon the actual wording), such action is in violation of the nature of a Wish.
It has been pointed out in earlier Principles that a Wish may be fulfilled in one of several different ways. In all cases, the
Wish will be fulfilled in such a way that the end result is achieved as desired, and in the manner which it could reasonably
be expected to be achieved. One of the biggest advantages of a Wish is its flexibility, but this is only an advantage as long as the DM and the players all use common sense and fairness in the wording and fulfillment of a desire.This is where I depart from the Ten Commandments of Wishes. I feel that if the Wish comes from a hostile, cursed, or innately evil source, then the DM should be encouraged to pervert the implementation of the Wish while delivering what was literally asked for. The Monkey's Paw Wish is an iconic narrative hook, but should be treated with the same level of caution that the Deck of Many Things is, since both can potentially derail a campaign.

X: Wishes are objective, impartial, and consistent.
If a Wish works in a certain way in a certain situation, it should always work in the same manner in identical situations in the future — as long as the set of circumstances directly involved in the Wish is the same.
Sometimes it may be a matter of interpretation whether the conditions for a Wish are identical to the conditions that existed at a previous time when an earlier Wish was used. In any event, if the general conditions are the same and the Wish is worded identically to or generally the same as a previous Wish, the means of achieving an end and that end itself must be generally the same as they were for the first Wish.
If a DM is properly consistent in this fashion, it may become possible for players to “predict” the effects or the outcome of making a certain Wish at a certain time. Players should be permitted to have this knowledge and to be able to trust in it once they have figured out this “law of nature.” Players should also be aware that the nature of a Wish makes it impossible to predict any outcome with certainty. The word “consistency” in the Principle stated above applies more to the approach and the motives of the DM (who grants the wish) than it does to the actual result of the Wish. In no case should the DM’s personal feelings for a player or a character have any influence on whether a Wish is granted or how it is put into effect. Petty emotions are neither impartial, objective nor consistent, and have no place in the implementation of a Wish or in any other aspect of an AD&D adventure.


In the magazine, each rule listed above is eloborated on. I encourage you to read it in full. If there is interest, I'll copy it into this thread.

Disclaimer: Dragon Magazine #49 was published in the 1981 but (I believe) the conventional logic of a wish still applies.

[Waterdeep Merch]

-snip-
I'm really glad to see that written out. Over all my time in gaming, the few players that have gotten access to wish have shied away from using them much, for fear of breaking something. Laying down some ground rules might help convince them to get creative.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'm really glad to see that written out. Over all my time in gaming, the few players that have gotten access to wish have shied away from using them much, for fear of breaking something. Laying down some ground rules might help convince them to get creative.

I think an article like that should be something any caster that gets access to the Wish spell(and their DMs) should read. Maybe retype it to be a bit more contemporary wording, and name it something quirky. Like "So, you got the power to break reality. How to Wish for dummies."
Make it a fun read, so it'll stick with them.

[Beelzebubba]

I Monkey's Paw wishes from evil extra-planars to some extent.

Not to totally screw players over, but to show them that the Wish granted by such a being is *always* used to further that being's selfish ends, in a way that makes characters regret dealing with them.

My goal is to evoke a combination of wide-eyed suprise, groaning with almost anger, while their eyes smile with how badly I burned them. I've gotten it once. It was worth every damn snide comment for the rest of the session.

If it's from an item, or spell they cast? Reasonable and straightforward, with the limits other people have said (and said well) above.

[Sigreid]

Unless the player is getting crazy with their wish I'm not going to twist it.

[Sariel Vailo]

Only if it is beyobd the norm otherwise if you use genies for a Wish im a monkey paw it so carefully wird it.

[Sigreid]

Only if it is beyobd the norm otherwise if you use genies for a Wish im a monkey paw it so carefully wird it.

It depends for me on this one. I've had characters actually befriend djinn and not be screwed.

[Tanarii]

Huh. For some reason I thought the 33% was for the Monkey's Paw as well as loss of spell. The stuff I find I just don't know properly due to never running high level games ...

Still, that seems like a reasonable way to run it for a DM that doesn't care to make the decision themselves. 33% Monkey Paw, roll separately from the loss of spell. At least, for things other than the examples given. Seems clear to me that those things are just supposed to happen, although still possibly costing you use of the spell.

Also, why would a Sorc ever use this for anything other than level 1-8 spells? You've got so few spells, and it's the most flexible one, giving you access to spells from any spell list (not just Sorc ones). Although it's pretty unlikely you're going to dip TOO low with your level 9 slot. But still ... need a Resurrection on the fly? No problem. Why risk blowing that forever, for anything outside of a total TPK with total body loss, and no-one knows about it to try and True Res you.

[Avonar]

Huh. For some reason I thought the 33% was for the Monkey's Paw as well as loss of spell. The stuff I find I just don't know properly due to never running high level games ...

Still, that seems like a reasonable way to run it for a DM that doesn't care to make the decision themselves. 33% Monkey Paw, roll separately from the loss of spell. At least, for things other than the examples given. Seems clear to me that those things are just supposed to happen, although still possibly costing you use of the spell.

Also, why would a Sorc ever use this for anything other than level 1-8 spells? You've got so few spells, and it's the most flexible one, giving you access to spells from any spell list (not just Sorc ones). Although it's pretty unlikely you're going to dip TOO low with your level 9 slot. But still ... need a Resurrection on the fly? No problem. Why risk blowing that forever, for anything outside of a total TPK with total body loss, and no-one knows about it to try and True Res you.

In my defence, this was my first ever character and for a first time high level player, Wish is a VERY exciting spell.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The way I tend to interpret Wish is that when you duplicate a spell, you are not "wishing for that spell", but "wishing for what that spell does". In-game you don't say "I wish for a Gust of Wind to be cast with these parameters, bla bla bla!" but more like "I wish for a powerful wind to blow my enemies away!" Gust of Wind is what you communicate to the DM in this case and how the wish is represented.

In line with this, and assuming spell wishes will not be pawed, it seems you should perhaps not paw any wishes for things that might be lower-level spells from some suitably deranged grimoire but just happen not to be. Unless it would be funny or appropriate somehow, and not super obnoxious.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I personally don't think that putting a twist on a wish cast and granted by a PC but if its a genie then I would put a twist on that or a evil or mischievous NPC .

[Tanarii]

In my defence, this was my first ever character and for a first time high level player, Wish is a VERY exciting spell.
I missed that you'd actually lost the ability to cast it. At level 20 too, so you can't swap it out when you next level up. Ouch.

[Blacky the Blackball]

No monkey's paw. I would just let them know if it fell in the "acceptable" range or not beforehand. They're already going to take damage and have their STR lowered and may lose the spell permanently. No need to be a bleep on top of that.

Yep. Same.

If a wish is within an "acceptable" power range, it works to the intent of the caster (they don't need to word it perfectly). If a wish is outside that acceptable power range it simply doesn't work - and the caster knows that what they asked for was beyond the power of the spell - I don't do any kind of "monkey paw" shenanigans to it.

I'll also work with the player on this, so we'll discuss what is acceptable and what is overpowered and come to a group consensus about it. I don't simply "nope" a wish unilaterally or arbitrarily.

Also, there are various things in the game that say things like "can only be removed with a wish". We assume that using a wish for one of those purposes is like using it to duplicate a spell, and therefore doesn't come with risk like a free-form worded wish does.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Also, why would a Sorc ever use this for anything other than level 1-8 spells? You've got so few spells, and it's the most flexible one, giving you access to spells from any spell list (not just Sorc ones). Although it's pretty unlikely you're going to dip TOO low with your level 9 slot. But still ... need a Resurrection on the fly? No problem. Why risk blowing that forever, for anything outside of a total TPK with total body loss, and no-one knows about it to try and True Res you.

Providing there are two of you that can cast it, it's not gone forever - only temporarily - but it might still take a few days of wish-pong to get it back...

Caster 1: Wishes for something - *rolls badly, loses ability to cast it again*
Caster 2: Wishes for caster 1 to regain the ability to cast the wish spell - *rolls badly, loses ability to cast it again*
Caster 1: Wishes for caster 2 to regain the ability to cast the wish spell - *rolls badly, loses ability to cast it again*
Caster 2: Wishes for caster 1 to regain the ability to cast the wish spell - *rolls badly, loses ability to cast it again*
Caster 1: Wishes for caster 2 to regain the ability to cast the wish spell - *rolls well, everything's fine*

(Of course, the DM may decide that wishing for someone else to regain the ability to cast the spell after having lost it is too powerful an effect.)

[Coffee_Dragon]

I personally don't think that putting a twist on a wish cast and granted by a PC

I would think that beings that grant and execute wishes have kind of moved on from being PCs.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I would think that beings that grant and execute wishes have kind of moved on from being PCs.

Good point... unless your a 20 level sorcerer with the wish spell

[Coffee_Dragon]

What is it about the level 20 sorcerer with the Wish spell?

[Tanarii]

Providing there are two of you that can cast it, it's not gone forever - only temporarily - but it might still take a few days of wish-pong to get it back...
What am I missing? In your scenario both casters have lost the ability to ever cast wish again after the first two "rolls badly" results.

Also, wishing for a character to be able to use Wish again sounds like a invitation for a Monkeys Paw if I ever heard one. If, as you say, the DM determines its too powerful. :smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

Any use of wish other than replicating a spell I would treat as "Invoke Plot". If a player gives me a simple, meaningful wish that will make for a good story, then I will hand them their wish on a silver platter, possibly with beneficial side effects. If they give me some attempt to gain limitless power or other BS, then I will hunt down whatever loopholes I can find and tear them apart.

When you cast "Invoke Plot" you are inviting the intervention of a great and terrible god, hope your offering pleases him. I like your approach.

Be careful of what you wish for, as you are sure to get it. That's the guideline for wishes that I learned back in OD&D white box days. I think it's still a good guiding principle.

In 5e, I suggest that any wish needs to be spoken aloud, by the player, in six seconds or less: this is more or less the time of one action in a round / turn. Making this constraint encourages the player (and the DM if necessary) for a player to do some research, preparation, word smithing, etc, and even consultation with the DM on the boundaries described above.

[CantigThimble]

What am I missing? In your scenario both casters have lost the ability to ever cast wish again after the first two "rolls badly" results.

The wish still occurs, even if you lose the ability to cast it again. So #1 will gain the ability to cast it again as #2 loses it.

[Tanarii]

The wish still occurs, even if you lose the ability to cast it again. So #1 will gain the ability to cast it again as #2 loses it.
Ah yes. That'd be it.