Dragon Disciple for PFS

[nmitchell2]

Currently looking at Bloodrager as an entry to Dragon Disciple, with a potential one-level dip in Scaled Fist Monk for Cha to AC, Flurry of Blows and access to Dragon Style. I'm not particularly interested in spellcasting at all really, I will use things like Shield and Mirror Image if I have them but the emphasis will definitely be on melee.

I'm unsure if I can use natural attacks with Flurry of Blows, is there a Feat I need for it or something? Is the Arcane Strike line and/or Cornugon Smash + Intimidating Prowess (bonus feat) worth it on this kind of build? I know I want Dragon Style and Power Attack for the damage modifiers. Any advice?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm unsure if I can use natural attacks with Flurry of Blows
Nope.


Is the Arcane Strike line and/or Cornugon Smash + Intimidating Prowess (bonus feat) worth it on this kind of build?
Cornugon Smash is primarily good with Hurtful (which isn't PFS legal). So go for Arcane Strike.

Since you seem to be aiming for max strength, consider dipping alchemist for the mutagen ability.

[Psyren]

I'm unsure if I can use natural attacks with Flurry of Blows, is there a Feat I need for it or something?

Nope.

There is such a feat actually - Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/), which is PFS legal.

If you're going to dip Monk though, I advise dipping Unchained Monk as their chassis is better and their flurry is more multiclass-friendly. Scaled Fist is compatible.

[ATHATH]

There is such a feat actually - Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/), which is PFS legal.

If you're going to dip Monk though, I advise dipping Unchained Monk as their chassis is better and their flurry is more multiclass-friendly. Scaled Fist is compatible.
I thought that the Unchained Monk explicitly couldn't use Not-Unchained Monk archetypes.

[grarrrg]

I thought that the Unchained Monk explicitly couldn't use Not-Unchained Monk archetypes.

All Monk archetypes pre-Unchained were defaulted to "nope" (even if some could still technically work).
All Monk archetypes post-Unchained should work with Unchained (unless they say otherwise).

[Psyren]

I thought that the Unchained Monk explicitly couldn't use Not-Unchained Monk archetypes.

It can't - but Scaled Fist is an archetype for both monks, as it was printed later. Several of the newer archetypes are like that.

[nmitchell2]

I apologise for being unclear, I was running on 4 hours sleep at work when I wrote this. I meant Unchained Monk with the Scaled Fist archetype.

Feral Combat Training allows me to use one natural attack with Flurry of Blows. I was hoping to specialise in natural attacks rather than unarmed attacks so I might just not use Flurry. I can use all my natural attacks in one turn as a full action so if I stack lots of them (is Ragebred Skinwalker PFS legal?) I should outdamage Flurry right?

[Psyren]

What's your full expected build? You need to compare the number of natural attacks you'll end up with to the number of attacks you'll get from flurry (including the bonus attacks from ki and style strike) to really decide which strategy gets you more DPR. Complicating the matter further is that Scaled Fist can power up natural attacks, but the more levels of it you take the further you delay your bloodline progression.

[nmitchell2]

What's your full expected build? You need to compare the number of natural attacks you'll end up with to the number of attacks you'll get from flurry (including the bonus attacks from ki and style strike) to really decide which strategy gets you more DPR. Complicating the matter further is that Scaled Fist can power up natural attacks, but the more levels of it you take the further you delay your bloodline progression.

My expected build is Monk 1 --> Bloodrager 4 --> Dragon Disciple 4 --> Bloodrager X, picking up abilities as follows;

1) AC Bonus, Draconic Might, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike
Bonus Feat: Dragon Style
Feat: Power Attack
2) Bloodrage, Fast Movement
Bloodline Power: Claws
3) Uncanny Dodge
Feat: Raging Vitality
4) Blood Sanctuary
5) Blood Casting, Eschew Materials
Bloodline Power: Draconic Resistances
Feat: Extra Rage
6) Blood of Dragons, Natural Armour Increase (+1)
7) Ability Boost (Str +2), Dragon Bite
Bonus Feat: Intimidating Prowess
Feat: Cornugon Smash
8) Breath Weapon
9) Ability Boost (Str+2), Natural Armour Increase (+1)
Bloodline Power: Breath Weapon
Feat: Dragon Ferocity
10) Improved Uncanny Dodge
11) Bloodline Feat:
Feat: Extra Rage
12) DR 1/-

I'm hoping that 16+Con rounds of Rage per day will be enough, that is how many rounds I have when I start taking levels in Dragon Disciple, including Extra Rage. If we can just alpha everything off the map that should be enough right?

Unchained Monk doesn't get Ki until 3rd and Strike Style until 5th so I don't get them with this build, Scaled Fist doesn't get Draconic Fury until 3rd so I don't get that either.

Flurry of Blows gives me one additional unarmed attack at my max BAB. Claws gives me two additional natural attacks at my max BAB -5, Dragon Bite gives me a third. Flurry of Blows can make use of Dragon Style, both can make use of Power Attack. I'm not a math whizz but I'm assuming that three attacks does more damage than one so my money would be on the natural attacks, if someone could confirm/deny that would be amazing.

[grarrrg]

My expected build is Monk 1 --> Bloodrager 4 --> Dragon Disciple 4 --> Bloodrager X, picking up abilities as follows;

Flurry of Blows gives me one additional unarmed attack at my max BAB. Claws gives me two additional natural attacks at my max BAB -5, Dragon Bite gives me a third. Flurry of Blows can make use of Dragon Style, both can make use of Power Attack. I'm not a math whizz but I'm assuming that three attacks does more damage than one so my money would be on the natural attacks, if someone could confirm/deny that would be amazing.

3 might be better than 1 inherently, but as you level Iteratives become more important and things get fuzzy.

Your Bab at level 12 will be 11, so your normal attack routine would be 11/6/1.
Flurrying gets you to 11/11/6/1
Bite/Claw/Claw you are at 11/11/11 (all at full STR)
Using a Weapon with B/C (only one Claw as the other is holding the weapon) you get 11/6/1 for the weapon and 6/6 (1/2 STR) for the Naturals

Naturals vs. Flurrying, you get 1 less attack, but it's at full accuracy, whereas the Flurry attacks are at -5/-10. Probably not worth the feat to Flurry with Naturals.

The Weapon+Naturals gets 5 attacks total, but at 11/6/6/6/1 and two of those don't get full STR bonus (although there is a feat to bump up the Naturals accuracy to 9/9).

[CharonsHelper]

If you really want to COMBINE natural attacks & unarmed attacks, you should grab one of the monk archetypes which loses Flurry entirely and just use natural weapons as secondary attacks.

However, I don't think that they would make for especially good dips. (The Master of Many Styles does this really well - tengu with bite/claw/claw do it really well - but not a good dip.)

If you want to focus upon natural attacks I really don't think that the monk dip is a great choice. I'm not sure why you want to avoid wearing armor either since it doesn't affect your Bloodrager spell-casting.

The big think you'll want to boost your AC is a way to get a natural armor enhancement bonus, since your neck slot will be taken up by your Amulet of Mighty Fists. If you were a sorcerer/DD I'd recommend a Ring of Spell Knowledge to be able to cast Barkskin, but even without the monk dip you wouldn't be able to use it until level 12.

[Psyren]

Flurrying gets you to 11/11/6/1

You're forgetting the additional bonus attack from ki, so 11/11/11/6/1. Plus flurrying lets you use Flying Bite Kick for pounce, though Bloodragers have other ways to get that.

[CharonsHelper]

You're forgetting the additional bonus attack from ki, so 11/11/11/6/1.

Not only do even straight monks not have enough Ki to do that all of the time, but we're talking about a 1 level dip, so the character won't have any ki at all as Umonks don't get ki until level 3.

So - no. You're mistaken.

[Psyren]

Not only do even straight monks not have enough Ki to do that all of the time, but we're talking about a 1 level dip, so the character won't have any ki at all as Umonks don't get ki until level 3.

So - no. You're mistaken.

I misread the number of monk levels, my bad. But it is a worthwhile data point to consider for monks in general.

But concerning "not enough ki to do that all the time" - a modicum of optimization can handle that, like Vows, ki mat, rings etc. Very few combats last longer than 4 rounds after all.

[nmitchell2]

If you want to focus upon natural attacks I really don't think that the monk dip is a great choice. I'm not sure why you want to avoid wearing armor either since it doesn't affect your Bloodrager spell-casting.

The dip into Monk was an attempt to achieve a character concept. I don't want this guy to wear armour, it doesn't fit my vision of the character. Thematically he struggles to maintain control of his Bloodrage, much like the struggle Anakin Skywalker has with the dark side of the force. As he learns to accept his Bloodrage rather than try to reject it, he begins to unlock the abilities of Dragon Disciple. The dip into Monk was meant to represent his attempt at containing his Bloodrage via mental training and also get him an AC boost into the bargain.

[CharonsHelper]

The dip into Monk was an attempt to achieve a character concept. I don't want this guy to wear armour, it doesn't fit my vision of the character. Thematically he struggles to maintain control of his Bloodrage, much like the struggle Anakin Skywalker has with the dark side of the force. As he learns to accept his Bloodrage rather than try to reject it, he begins to unlock the abilities of Dragon Disciple. The dip into Monk was meant to represent his attempt at containing his Bloodrage via mental training and also get him an AC boost into the bargain.

Fair enough. It's not a horrible dip - and it fills a fluff purpose.

When someone asks for build advice my default is to assume total optimization. :smallbiggrin:

I will say - you do still have the issue with the neck slot. Straight monks can get away with it by picking up Barkskin as a Ki ability, but you'll be down significant AC without a consistent way to access a natural AC enhancement bonus. (everyone else grabbing an Amulet of Natural Armor by level 4-5)

[eldskald]

Are you really sure you want Dragon Disciple levels into a heavy melee focused build? Those extra Str points might not be worth it when you consider the later Bloodrager levels. At level 11, you get Greater Bloodrage, which gives you a spell at free action and another +2 Str and +2 Con when raging. Also, damage reduction.

The whole point of going Dragon Disciple is to have high level sorcerer spells while still being good at melee. If you don't care about the best spell list in the game, levels in Dragon Disciple will probably just weight you down, since it only gives you a bit of AC (which is not that great defense anyway) and an extra +2 Str at the expense of less rage, spells, DR and slower Bloodrager progression.

If you really want those extra Str points, you might consider getting Eldritch Heritage into Abyssal. It is kinda feat heavy, so you might drop the flurry feats if you decide to go this way.

[nmitchell2]

I will say - you do still have the issue with the neck slot. Straight monks can get away with it by picking up Barkskin as a Ki ability, but you'll be down significant AC without a consistent way to access a natural AC enhancement bonus. (everyone else grabbing an Amulet of Natural Armor by level 4-5)

My AC isn't my primary defence anyway. That would be to use my d10/d12 Hit Dice and Rage to tank the damage while I break faces. I can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to keep myself topped up between fights.

[CharonsHelper]

My AC isn't my primary defence anyway. That would be to use my d10/d12 Hit Dice and Rage to tank the damage while I break faces. I can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to keep myself topped up between fights.

Fair enough - but you could still eventually grab something like the Crown of the Kobold King, though it's not quite as cost efficient as the Amulet of Natural Armor.

15k gold for +2 CHA & +2 natural armor

It also makes you immune to dragons' frightful presence (handy when it does come up) and adds +1 caster level for sorcerers (great for many DDs - but worthless for you).

[nmitchell2]

Fair enough - but you could still eventually grab something like the Crown of the Kobold King, though it's not quite as cost efficient as the Amulet of Natural Armor.

15k gold for +2 CHA & +2 natural armor

It also makes you immune to dragons' frightful presence (handy when it does come up) and adds +1 caster level for sorcerers (great for many DDs - but worthless for you).

This is useful advice, thank you!

[CharonsHelper]

This is useful advice, thank you!

Basically for you it's slapping a +2 AoNA on a +2 CHA headband (which is likely as high as you'd bother going in PFS) while paying a premium of 3k for saving a slot & the immunity to frightful presence.

I had a DD build I was planning to grab it for - though mine was a straight sorcerer build. Basically mine was much more gish/caster, while yours is a beat-stick which happens to cast a bit.

Fun build. Tiefling cross-blooded sorcerer with a racial bite attack. When making a single attack he got 1.5x STR and then used his bloodline for claws when making a full attack. The big draw was that he could use a poor man's spellstrike since touch attacks went off when a natural weapon hit, with bonus damage from both bloodlines.

The character was (amusingly) actually convinced that he was a half-dragon since a blue dragon had raised him for awhile to use as a minion but then lost interest. Unfortunately the campaign died before he actually got DD levels.