Optimization Quad 9ths: because triple 9ths was too easy [Archive]

Baby Gary

2017-11-20, 09:57 AM

I don't think that this is possible, but there might be a way.

How would one make a character that level 20 would be able to have 9th level arcane casting, divine casting, psionics, and manuvers.

use as much cheese that you want, no restrictions on sources, and have fun

P.S. is this even possible?

[Edit] I meant to say without gestalt, if you can then this is as easy as getting triple 9ths, which appears to be relatively easy (see this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542441-Getting-Triple-9ths-at-level-20) thread for more info about that)

Nifft

2017-11-20, 10:04 AM

Illithid Savant (some assembly required).

Thrallherd with Fusion (some assembly required).

Gestalt which allows dual-progression PrCs.

Mike Miller

2017-11-20, 10:20 AM

Gestalt which allows dual-progression PrCs.

So are you ruling out the possibility that it can be done with normal gestalt rules? (Not that I am proficient enough with optimization to say otherwise, merely interested)

Crichton

2017-11-20, 10:26 AM

I don't think that this is possible, but there might be a way.

How would one make a character that level 20 would be able to have 9th level arcane casting, divine casting, psionics, and manuvers.

use as much cheese that you want, no restrictions on sources, and have fun

P.S. is this even possible?

Can we add in that bonus points are given for lower cheese levels? Bigger bonuses for no gestalts, etc?

Nifft

2017-11-20, 10:52 AM

So are you ruling out the possibility that it can be done with normal gestalt rules? (Not that I am proficient enough with optimization to say otherwise, merely interested)

Doesn't look like I said that.

Why do you think I said that?

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-20, 10:57 AM

Well, there's a bunch of TO tricks that get you all class abilities. I mentioned them on the other thread.

I don't think there's a way to get quad ninths in a the most straightforward way. You need at least 1+8 levels Ur-Priest, 1+8 levels Subline Chord/Beholder Mage, 1+12 levels ardent, and 14 levels that advance initiating (if you rule that all PrCs advance initiating, this is actually quite easy, and you only need Martial Study). The 42 levels of advancement you need don't fit in the 17 dual-advancing levels you have available. I don't think there are triple-advancing classes. Gestalt will do it, I'm sure*, but that's cheating.

You can, of course, do something like warblade 9/beholder mage 1/jade phoenix mage 10, with Chameleon Crafting. That'll get you all 9ths, in terms of spell lists, at least, but you'll have to craft scrolls of every divine spell and psionic power you want to cast.

*bard 1/ardent 4/ur-priest 1/psychic theurge 4/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 4/cerebremancer 5//warblade 20 is the obvious example. Using psion instead of ardent, to make use of the much stronger power list, you can try something like psion 5/ur-priest 1/psychic theurge 4/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 4/cerebremancer 5//bard 1/warblade 4/psion +1/warblade +4/psion +1/warblade +9, which gets you IL 18 and full psion manifesting, in addition to Ur-Priest 9 and Sublime Chord 10.

Powerdork

2017-11-20, 11:28 AM

Doesn't look like I said that.

Why do you think I said that?

Because you're jumping to a modified version of gestalt that removes the big limiting factor in this context?

Mike Miller

2017-11-20, 11:29 AM

Doesn't look like I said that.

Why do you think I said that?

I was asking for clarification because you specified gestalt that allows for dual PrCs. It did look like you were implying regular gestalt wouldn't work. That was why I asked.

Alea

2017-11-20, 11:32 AM

Any build that can get non-psionic triple-9s in 18 levels should be able to do quad-9s in 20, since you can just add two levels of ardent and a +15 worth of manifester level bonuses, which I'm sure are possible.

Nifft

2017-11-20, 11:33 AM

Because you're jumping to a modified version of gestalt that removes the big limiting factor in this context?

I was asking for clarification because you specified gestalt that allows for dual PrCs. It did look like you were implying regular gestalt wouldn't work. That was why I asked. No such implication is implied.

I'm just stating three obvious ways.

I expect there are more ways than just the 3 obvious ones that I mentioned.

BTW, the reason for the non-standard Gestalt was intended to be obvious: just take the 3x9 build from the previous thread, and put a ToB class on the other side. Done.

flappeercraft

2017-11-20, 11:47 AM

Alea

2017-11-20, 11:55 AM

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage applies specifically to sorcerer spellcasting. But then I suppose that spellhoarding transfers that to wizard spellcasting—but you should be clearer about it. The class you actually take levels in is sorcerer, not wizard. So that would be a venerable dragonwrought loredrake spellhoarding kobold sorcerer 1st/[...] who has taken the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and has the spellcasting of a 19th-level wizard.

Eldariel

2017-11-20, 03:20 PM

Well, there's a bunch of TO tricks that get you all class abilities. I mentioned them on the other thread.

I don't think there's a way to get quad ninths in a the most straightforward way. You need at least 1+8 levels Ur-Priest, 1+8 levels Subline Chord/Beholder Mage, 1+12 levels ardent, and 14 levels that advance initiating (if you rule that all PrCs advance initiating, this is actually quite easy, and you only need Martial Study). The 42 levels of advancement you need don't fit in the 17 dual-advancing levels you have available. I don't think there are triple-advancing classes. Gestalt will do it, I'm sure*, but that's cheating.

You can, of course, do something like warblade 9/beholder mage 1/jade phoenix mage 10, with Chameleon Crafting. That'll get you all 9ths, in terms of spell lists, at least, but you'll have to craft scrolls of every divine spell and psionic power you want to cast.[/SIZE]

StP Erudite of course makes it easier too. You could also use shapeshifting into a form with innate 17th+ level powers in one category (all but martial adept exist (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1582.0)).

jdizzlean

2017-11-20, 03:26 PM

Venerable DWK Greater Rite Loredrake Spellhoarding Kobold Wizard 1/Ardent 2/Cerebremancer 3/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 7/Warblade 5

Casts as
Wizard 19 (9ths) (1 Sorcerer+3 Cerebremancer +1 Rite +2 LoreDrake +12 Epic Dragon Advancement Rules)
Ardent 12 (9ths)
Ur Priest 9 (9ths)
Martial 14 (7ths)

As close as I could get

care to throw up a char sheet/IC progression on that? be interesting to read

Hellpyre

2017-11-20, 03:52 PM

Nifft

2017-11-20, 04:03 PM

ben-zayb

2017-11-20, 06:45 PM

Getting 3 levels of bloodline would be a massive boost to IL (+3 effective class levels, aka +1.5 IL, to each non-initiator class), and quite a decent boost to Ardent ML (+3 effective class levels to Ardent, Cerebremancer, and Psychic Theurge)

Baby Gary

2017-11-20, 06:47 PM

just updated the OP,

please stay away from gestalt, it makes it very easy because you could just gestalt the triple 9ths build with a martial initiator

Nifft

2017-11-20, 06:50 PM

just updated the OP,

please stay away from gestalt, it makes it very easy because you could just gestalt the triple 9ths build with a martial initiator

Can you do triple-9 with a Dragonwrought Sorcerer (not Wizard and NOT Loredrake)?

If so, use Wyrm of War (a less-popular Sovereign Archetype) to exchange Sorcerer spell slots for Tiger Claw maneuvers, and you get 9th level Tiger Claw as soon as you hit Sorc 18.

Domar

2017-11-20, 07:01 PM

Dragonwrought to grab dragonblood sorcerer 7th and cleric 9th substitution levels without the previous levels.

flappeercraft

2017-11-20, 08:27 PM

care to throw up a char sheet/IC progression on that? be interesting to read

If I have the time (which I definitely do) I will

Pretty sure you can get that up to a bit for Martial by turning the last 4 levels into Legacy Champion advancing Warblade. Though your IL looks like it should be 12 instead of 14 for your build (Cheesy though the 1.5 IL reading may be.)

Oh, never thought of legacy champion, i literally just made this in like 5 minutes off the top of my head. Oh, yeah it should be 16, the original thing was at level 23 and still with 5 warblade levels, must have forgotten to change that when lowering it to level 20.

Hmm.

You could drop Loredrake for Wyrm of War (also from Dragons of Eberron) and sell a few Sorcerer slots (not spells known) to learn Maneuvers of the same level as the spell slot.

Got 9th level Sorcerer spells? Boom, you know a 9th level Tiger Claw maneuver.

I had never heard of Wyrm of War, I'll check it out.
Edit: That, works out perfectly since spell slots are unimportant since you can just regain them with high mental scores but unfortunately it only gives tiger claw
Edit 2: Is there even a limitation that limits you to not take Loredrake and Wyrm of War? I can't seem to find it, that or maybe i'm just blind.

Thurbane

2017-11-20, 08:49 PM

For Divine 9ths, can you PoA yourself into a Solar or something similar?

Nifft

2017-11-20, 09:25 PM

I had never heard of Wyrm of War, I'll check it out.
Edit: That, works out perfectly since spell slots are unimportant since you can just regain them with high mental scores but unfortunately it only gives tiger claw It also gives you IL = Sorc CL, so you can get more maneuvers via Feats or a PrC. Might be interesting to double-dip IL via Jade Phoenix Mage or something. Meh, exercise for another day.

Edit 2: Is there even a limitation that limits you to not take Loredrake and Wyrm of War? I can't seem to find it, that or maybe i'm just blind. There's no mechanism that allows a Sovereign Archetype other than the DM and the flavor text.

The flavor text strongly implies that you only get one:

Pursuing a Sovereign archetype is a lifelong goal, and it is reflected in a dragon’s behavior and outlook on life. Dragons are still individuals; one loredrake might be dry and serious, while another is cheerfully manic. But both are utterly dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. As such, the choice of a Sovereign archetype should provide a DM with a thumbnail sketch of a dragon’s motivations and personality.

All true dragons have the potential to use arcane magic. Most have the ability to select spells from the cleric spell list and certain domains. This variant rule instead provides a dragon with a special ability based on the Sovereign archetype it chooses to follow.

I guess the mechanical teeth might be that you lose Cleric spellcasting for each of the Sovereign Archetypes? If so, it's that you can't sell the same feature twice.

But not all Dragons had that feature, so meh.

flappeercraft

2017-11-20, 10:11 PM

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1404337

Here is the sheet, I have worked on it a little, just the basics, I will do it gradually.

remetagross

2017-11-21, 02:46 AM

@flappeercraft how do those +12 levels from epic dragon advancement work?

MaxiDuRaritry

2017-11-21, 02:55 AM

Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22584429&postcount=10) along with a psionic adaptation of jade phoenix mage would be a quick and easy way of doing so, and jade phoenix mage is insanely easy to adapt, as well. Ardent 7/swordsage 3/psionic jade phoenix mage 10 would be an easy way to go about it, I think, and it's nicely Wis-based all the way around. Add Practiced Manifester to keep your manifester level up, and you only lose 1 ML over the entire progression.

flappeercraft

2017-11-21, 12:28 PM

@flappeercraft how do those +12 levels from epic dragon advancement work?

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm) is the SRD Link that details it, the original thing is in ELH. A Kobold is considered a Great Wyrm when it reaches Venerable age according to RotD IIRC. If not there, from Draconomicon.

Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22584429&postcount=10) along with a psionic adaptation of jade phoenix mage would be a quick and easy way of doing so, and jade phoenix mage is insanely easy to adapt, as well. Ardent 7/swordsage 3/psionic jade phoenix mage 10 would be an easy way to go about it, I think, and it's nicely Wis-based all the way around. Add Practiced Manifester to keep your manifester level up, and you only lose 1 ML over the entire progression.

I actually was planning something similar, although the STP Erudite would be a problem. I actually am avoiding using adaptations as I generally dislike having to change something to fit my needs, unless it can be done by RAW. Also, I was thinking of getting the Epic Counterspell feat and using it with the Spellhoarder abilities to basically learn spells in combat which is basically a Sharingan in D&D. Of course Epic Counterspell at level 20 would need some no Requirements Bonus Feat cheese like that from Loremaster, but I can't find any that would not take away from the quadruple casting.

Shalist

2017-11-21, 01:09 PM

This one is so straightforward I hesitate to even call it cheese:

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1.I mean seriously, how could reincarnating dozens of times possibly go wrong?

Alternately:

You can also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above, and the Dungeon Master has the final say on the curse's effect.

The target loses a class ability, such as spellcasting, sneak attack damage, or barbarian rage. If this class ability is a prerequisite for other abilites or feats, the target loses the use of those feats as well.While obviously not RAI and very unlikely to make it past the DM, permanently adding a spellcasting progression is 'no more powerful' than removing one.

Hellpyre

2017-11-21, 02:01 PM

Venerable DWK Greater Rite Loredrake Spellhoarding Kobold Wizard 1/Ardent 2/Cerebremancer 3/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 7/Warblade 5

Casts as
Wizard 19 (9ths) (1 Wizard +3 Cerebremancer +1 Rite +2 LoreDrake +12 Epic Dragon Advancement Rules)
Ardent 12 (9ths)
Ur Priest 9 (9ths)
Martial 14 (7ths)

As close as I could get

Okay, I think I have something a bit closer, but I'm a bit spotty on psionics so Practiced Manifester might not interact with Ardent the way I'm thinking it does. Using the same basic build from flappeercraft, we try

Venerable DWK Greater Rite Loredrake Spellhoarding Kobold Sorcerer 1
Ardent 2
Cerebremancer 3
Ur-priest 2
Crusader 1
Psychic Theurge 3
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
Legacy Champion 1
Uncanny Trickster 1
Legacy Champion 2 -> Uncanny Trickster 2 -> Legacy Champion 3 -> Uncanny Trickster 3 -> Legacy Champion 4 -> Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
Legacy Champion 5 -> Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
Legacy Champion 6 -> Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Gives us 19th level Wizard casting, 12th level Manifesting for ardent (4 coming for Practiced Manifester), 9th level Ur-Priest casting, and 17th level initiating.

EDIT: We can even get back an Ardent level by trading a level of Crusader back into Psychic Theurge and getting no in-combat recovery mechanic, since we can qualify for RKV through Martial Study/Martial Stance. Then we turn the last two levels into Legacy Champion, advancing RKV on LC 8 at ECL 20.

remetagross

2017-11-21, 02:32 PM

[QUOTE=flappeercraft;22590958]This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm) is the SRD Link that details it, the original thing is in ELH. A Kobold is considered a Great Wyrm when it reaches Venerable age according to RotD IIRC. If not there, from Draconomicon.

Ok, but I don't get where the advancement impacts the ECL. Is it so that you can simply declare your Dragonwrought Kobold to be of venerable age and of 12 age categories older than Great Wyrm, with no ECL increase whatsoever? It that's true, why stop at 12? We can reach epic wizard spellcasting arbitrarily as high as wanted :smallbiggrin:

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-21, 02:57 PM

I think the idea is that you get +2 levels of sorcerer casting for every virtual age category beyond the maximum, which is venerable. That means the 18 levels past level 1 contribute 12 levels of casting. No idea if it's RAW.

flappeercraft

2017-11-21, 05:36 PM

Ok, but I don't get where the advancement impacts the ECL. Is it so that you can simply declare your Dragonwrought Kobold to be of venerable age and of 12 age categories older than Great Wyrm, with no ECL increase whatsoever? It that's true, why stop at 12? We can reach epic wizard spellcasting arbitrarily as high as wanted :smallbiggrin:

Nonononono, you advance virtual age categories by the amount of HD past achieving Great Wyrm status. 3 HD for non epic dragons. The HD are never specified that have to be RHD so by RAW it works although by RAI it is most definitely not intended. It does increase CR but not ECL.

I think the idea is that you get +2 levels of sorcerer casting for every virtual age category beyond the maximum, which is venerable. That means the 18 levels past level 1 contribute 12 levels of casting. No idea if it's RAW.

Yes, this. Plus a couple more perks

Anthrowhale

2017-11-21, 10:49 PM

Here's an approach using variants.

Be a Hatchling Phaerimm and use level buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to reduce LA+2 to LA+0.
Add a major bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) to advance all class features by 3 for calculations.
Use Ardent 1/Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 1/Psychic Theurge 9/Crusader 2
Take the feats Practiced Manifester, Weapon Focus, <anything metamagic>, Sanctum Spell.

Sorcerer 20 casting from Phaerimm, improved since all casting is done as an SLA, granting 3 9th level spells.
Manifester level 10+4(practiced manifester)+3(major bloodline)=17 with 9th level manifestations from 2 mantles.
Initiator level 9+5(cross-class)+3(major bloodline)=17 with a single 9th level maneuver.
Divine Crusader caster level 10 with a single 9th level spell

Variants: Crusader -> Warblade is easy.

Divine Crusader -> Ur-Priest is more difficult. Something like: Ardent 1/Crusader 8/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 9/Crusader 1 with the feats Keeper of Forbidden Lore (spellcraft as class skill), Practiced Manifester, Iron will (via Otyugh Hole), <anything metamagic>, Sanctum Spell with Spell Focus(evil) via a flaw could work.

With Ur-Priest, switching to Swordsage becomes possible which makes a build like: Ardent 1/Swordsage 7/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Ardent 1/Sword Sage 1 with feats Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Practiced Manifester, Spell Focus(evil), and Iron Will (via Otyugh Hole) work.

Avoiding a Phaerimm seems very difficult. Nothing else has racial casting based on HD in level buyoff range and the 9 levels needed to advance Beholder Mage or Sublime Chord don't exist even with Theurging.

Ardent also seem unavoidable.

Anthrowhale

2017-11-23, 08:29 AM

MaxiDuRaritry

2017-11-23, 08:42 AM

Here's a previous attempt at quad-9s (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12101485&postcount=36). I believe it's not actually valid since Practiced Manifester explicitly only works once for a given class.With some spellcasting/manifesting PrCs, you could use Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester on those PrCs to boost your caster/manifester level multiple times?

Anthrowhale

2017-11-23, 09:41 AM

With some spellcasting/manifesting PrCs, you could use Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester on those PrCs to boost your caster/manifester level multiple times?
It says:

Special: You can select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different manifesting class.

BTW, I found another attempt here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=62nn0tlifb33o5udjecbehg242&topic=8770.msg140055#msg140055) (near the bottom) which uses a Master Crown of the White Raven to add a single 9th level maneuver on any triple-9 build while subverting initiator level constraints. This seems clearly RAW legal.

For the Phaerimm approach there is apparently a RAW dispute. It says:

A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level) and
Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level."
My reading is that the second quote implies that spell access is dependent on caster level while the first quote states that caster level rises with character level for a Phaerimm. Hence, it's consistent with these rules for a Hatchling Phaerimm Warblade 9 to have spell access as a sorcerer 9 while a Hatchling Phaerimm Sorcerer 9 has spell access as a Sorcerer 18.

The obvious and more balanced alternative is to have a Hatchling Phaerimm Warblade 9 have spell access as a sorcerer 0 while a Hatchling Phaerimm Sorcerer 9 has spell access as a Sorcerer 9, but I don't see how to interpret the two quotes to be consistent with this.

MaxiDuRaritry

2017-11-23, 10:06 AM

Is a manifesting prestige class not a manifesting class?

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-23, 10:46 AM

Is a manifesting prestige class not a manifesting class?
Generally speaking, a manifesting (casting) class is any class that provides manifesting (casting) independent of other classes. So, no. It might be a psionic class, though, in the sense of Tashalatora.

Hecuba

2017-11-23, 11:11 AM

ExLibrisMortis

2017-11-23, 11:50 AM

If you're willing to break out the well-aged cheese, you can manage the arcane casting using only feats: magical training, versatile spellcaster, iterative extra slots, and necrotic cyst.

Edit: I'm missing something there. Heighten? Sanctum? Earth spell? Eh.
Or maybe Eldritch Corruption + Heighten, to get you a +2 level adjustment for the low, low price of seriously damaging a trusting ally's health.

remetagross

2017-11-24, 11:11 AM

If you're willing to break out the well-aged cheese, you can manage the arcane casting using only feats: magical training, versatile spellcaster, iterative extra slots, and necrotic cyst.

Edit: I'm missing something there. Heighten? Sanctum? Earth spell? Eh.

True, but the caster level would be extremely low, and you would only have as many spell slots as you spend feats on, which is not very practical.

Anthrowhale

2017-11-24, 02:11 PM

True, but the caster level would be extremely low, and you would only have as many spell slots as you spend feats on, which is not very practical.

Caster level can be fixed via circle magic shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521449-E6-Circle-Magic). This potentially also applies to both arcane and divine spells.