Mage Slayer Feat Question

[Clone]

Hey all.
I've been looking at feats for my Bladesinger to take and came across Mage Slayer. The campaign I'm in seems to have a reasonable amount of spellcasters, so it seems like a good spell to nab at level 8 (currently 6).

My first question is in relation to the disadvantage on concentration checks feature. I just need to damage them and its at disadvantage and that is all fine, but what is considered me damaging the creature and otherwise?
Would a minion summoned by me count, such as an Elemental or Demon?
What about spells such as Bigby's Hand or Maximillian's Earthen Grasp?
Animate Objects, since it doesn't summon semi-sentient creatures in the same way the Conjure or Summon spells do?

Are there any spells which initially give the disadvantage upon first cast but afterwards don't for some reason?
I'm normally fine for making rulings on these things but I'm not sure this time.

Second is should I bother with it as a feat instead of maxing INT to 20 if no-one else in the party is going to take it?
My Bladesinger currently has 18 DEX and 18 INT, so I can see the main pull to maximize INT as I'm also the onlly spellcaster out of the four of us. Any advice would be appreciated!

[Easy_Lee]

You'll get more mileage out of Intelligence. The trouble with mage slayer is you have to be next to the target to reap the benefits and it can be thwarted simply by moving (or teleporting since the reaction occurs after the trigger in this case, depending on your DM's ruling). There are a few other ways to shut it down, but you get the idea.

A better anti-mage policy is to target their weak saves or just kill them outright.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey all.
I've been looking at feats for my Bladesinger to take and came across Mage Slayer. The campaign I'm in seems to have a reasonable amount of spellcasters, so it seems like a good spell to nab at level 8 (currently 6).

My first question is in relation to the disadvantage on concentration checks feature. I just need to damage them and its at disadvantage and that is all fine, but what is considered me damaging the creature and otherwise? Any damage that you do, if we parse the text as written for that particular feature. The stuff that is to be used within 5 feet is specified. The damage is not spelled out, but the introduction does mention melee combat techniques ....

MAGE SLAYER
You have practiced techniques useful in melee combat against spellcasters, gaining the following benefits:
1. When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.
2. When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration.
3. You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you. You can argue that the intention is that you deal melee damage for item 2 to take effect, but that isn't specified as items 1 & 3 are. I think that a DM ruling that you need to make melee attack damage for item #2 is reasonable, but, as with a lot of this stuff, I can see it the other way as well. Talk it over with your DM.

[Clone]

I'm aware that damage full stop causes the disadvantage, so I can lightning bolt or stab a concentrating target and still have the same effect.
My question is in relation to spells that is not myself directly dealing damage but uses either my commands or a bonus action/ action to cause the damage.

If I summon a Babau or Earth Elemental for example, and it attacks a spellcaster because my magic brought it onto the battlefield and my command caused it to attack, does the feat proc?

If I animate objects which have their own HP and AC and use my bonus action to get them to target a spellcaster, is that interaction different since the animated objects are not independent creatures and I'm using my bonus action to directly cause the damage on my turn?

If I cast Bigby's Hand and punch a spellcaster with it, is that different as its not a creature and doesn't take up space, and I use my bonus action to control it (in a similar manner to the animated objects) yet it is not a creature even if it has an AC and HP but is an object being controlled by me. Is this interaction different?

Its really confusing me!

[Danielqueue1]

When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration.

It has to be damage you deal. whether it be melee or ranged weapons or spells. summoned creatures deal their own damage.

[Dalebert]

I interpret that as you dealing the damage directly. Animated objects are creatures that attack at your command. That's indirect dmg. On the other hand, you are directly controlling a Flaming Sphere. I would count that dmg as coming from you just as I would dmg from Scorching Ray.

It may not be the intent that non-melee attacks work in this way but that would be uncharacteristically sloppy if so. It is the RAW and I would go by that RAW because the feat is fairly niche and therefore weak otherwise.

[Clone]

Thanks for the responses guys, I'd had a feeling that creatures summoned wouldn't be able to proc the feature but Bigby's Hand and Animate Objects were the main ones which I'd wondered about.

So to refer back to my original post:
Conjure/ Summon creatures are a no
Animate Objects are a no
Bigby's Hand, Maximillion's Earthen Grasp and effects such as Telekinesis are good to go?

[Rogerdodger557]

You'll get more mileage out of Intelligence. The trouble with mage slayer is you have to be next to the target to reap the benefits and it can be thwarted simply by moving (or teleporting since the reaction occurs after the trigger in this case, depending on your DM's ruling). There are a few other ways to shut it down, but you get the idea.

A better anti-mage policy is to target their weak saves or just kill them outright.

In the case of Mage Slayer, the trigger is a spell being cast. An enemy attempting to teleport away will trigger the Mage Slayer reaction, should the teleport be via a spell.

[Mikemical]

Mage Slayer has always been a bad feat covered in empty promises and lost opportunities. If you take it, all your DM has to do to counter it is "he moves back 5', then casts his spell". You're better off maxing INT and buying poisons for your weapons. A wizard can't cast if he's paralized, asleep, unconscious or dying.

[ThePolarBear]

In the case of Mage Slayer, the trigger is a spell being cast. An enemy attempting to teleport away will trigger the Mage Slayer reaction, should the teleport be via a spell.

But for the rules for reaction timing adjudication, since Mage Slayer has no timing bound to it, the reaction happens after the trigger has completed. The creature already teleported away.

Edit: Obviously referencing action/bonus action/reaction spells with no longer casting time associated with them and that are istantaneous in nature.

[Specter]

I would rule that you is you, not another creature. So no to summons. You exert full control over objects, so I'd say yes to Animate Objects.

But it is a good feat. If you're making mages use their Misty Step to get away from you and just cast a cantrip as their productive action, that's half the battle.

[The_Jette]

Mage Slayer has always been a bad feat covered in empty promises and lost opportunities. If you take it, all your DM has to do to counter it is "he moves back 5', then casts his spell". You're better off maxing INT and buying poisons for your weapons. A wizard can't cast if he's paralized, asleep, unconscious or dying.

5e doesn't have a free 5' step away. So, either the mage would have to disengage, which takes an action; or, he would face an OA. Make it a trip, and that mage isn't going anywhere.

[Specter]

5e doesn't have a free 5' step away. So, either the mage would have to disengage, which takes an action; or, he would face an OA. Make it a trip, and that mage isn't going anywhere.

Yep. Also I find it appaling that people treat opportunity attacks against mages as something totally trivial. You do know spellcasters are usually frail, right?

Retaliation from Frenzy Barbarian lets you attack as a reaction against a creature that attacks you
GitP: W H O A

Mage Slayer lets you attack anyone who casts a spell near you (targeted at you or otherwise)
GitP: Meh

?????

[Easy_Lee]

Yep. Also I find it appaling that people treat opportunity attacks against mages as something totally trivial. You do know spellcasters are usually frail, right?

Retaliation from Frenzy Barbarian lets you attack as a reaction against a creature that attacks you
GitP: W H O A

Mage Slayer lets you attack anyone who casts a spell near you (targeted at you or otherwise)
GitP: Meh

?????

Mage Slayer can be thwarted in a variety of ways. Additionally, it's usually not easy to get within 5' of a spellcaster. Monks are the best at getting to casters, and if the caster is frail then the monk can stun him to death (CON save).

Mage Slayer is honestly pretty niche. Rogues are the best recipient, and they have other feat options that will be useful more often (Sentinel, Sharpshooter, crossbow expert).

[ThePolarBear]

5e doesn't have a free 5' step away. So, either the mage would have to disengage, which takes an action; or, he would face an OA. Make it a trip, and that mage isn't going anywhere.

Can't make it a trip unless you are a battlemaster. Shoving and grappling both need the Attack action unless you have some special feature.

[Specter]

Mage Slayer can be thwarted in a variety of ways. Additionally, it's usually not easy to get within 5' of a spellcaster. Monks are the best at getting to casters, and if the caster is frail then the monk can stun him to death (CON save).

Mage Slayer is honestly pretty niche. Rogues are the best recipient, and they have other feat options that will be useful more often (Sentinel, Sharpshooter, crossbow expert).

These are the things that can happen if you close in on a mage:

- Casting regardless
Result: getting attacked.

- Walking away and casting
Result: getting attacked.

- Disengaging
Result: a wasted turn, or maybe some bonus action casting that is probably not harmful.

- Misty Stepping then casting
Result: a cantrip, which means their efficiency in this turn has been severely hampered (as I said, half the battle).

- Attacking instead of casting
Result: that would indeed be deceptive! But most casters are mediocre at attacking. If you're facing a monster that can do both well (e.g. Paladins, some demons, etc.), you are at least limiting their options.

In OP's case, he's a Bladesinger, which means he should have access to teleportation magic and whatever else is needed to close in, so I maintain that it's a good feat.

[The_Jette]

Can't make it a trip unless you are a battlemaster. Shoving and grappling both need the Attack action unless you have some special feature.

It does say that if you have multiple attacks, the shove replaces one of those attacks. So, it wouldn't be a stretch to allow it in place of the Opportunity Attack. But, that's not 100% RAW. So, take that however you want to.

[ThePolarBear]

It does say that if you have multiple attacks, the shove replaces one of those attacks. So, it wouldn't be a stretch to allow it in place of the Opportunity Attack. But, that's not 100% RAW. So, take that however you want to.

"When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple."
"Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you."