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The UnderKing
2007-08-19, 12:16 AM
I would like to know what makes the best Fighter/Mage. I know of a couple paths (DuskBlade, SpellSword, etc..) Just what's the best? (I know there has been MANY theards like this but I couldn't find anything that really helped me) A guide of some kind would be good. (on this forum or any other site) Thanks in advance!!!

Zincorium
2007-08-19, 12:40 AM
Well, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'Gish', the WotC optimization boards tend to have a lot of advice on how to make a somewhat difficult task easier. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=307309) is a good start.

Personally, what I'd recommend is 2 wizard (or sorceror)/4 fighter/5 abjurant champion/9 Swiftblade from WotC's site (the new one) or Knight phantom from the same place. Knight phantom gives more spellcasting, swiftblade makes your buffs better, and abjurant champion (complete mage) is like crack for a gish, never give up levels of it. Your mileage may vary, Duskblade is a much better out-of-the-box class that works.

As far as playstyle goes, realize that while the melee combat side of things doesn't help your casting much, the reverse is definitely the case. Focus on self buffs and utility spells rather than the typical batman loadout and you should be fine.

kpenguin
2007-08-19, 12:47 AM
Well, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'Gish', the WotC optimization boards tend to have a lot of advice on how to make a somewhat difficult task easier.

According to my Monster Manual, a githyanki that multiclasses is called a 'gish'. Is that where the term comes from?

Zincorium
2007-08-19, 12:51 AM
According to my Monster Manual, a githyanki that multiclasses is called a 'gish'. Is that where the term comes from?

Yep, been around since at least early 2nd edition (possibly earlier, that's the first game I heard it in, though.)


But yeah, it was a lot easier in 2nd where you were, say, a 7th warrior/ 8th mage instead of a 8th level fighter or 9th level mage (numbers not exact, it's been a while since I dug out my old 2nd ed books) for the same experience.

As it is, you need a high BAB/caster level progression prestige class to not suck rather badly. Fortunately there are quite a few out there.

Jack Mann
2007-08-19, 12:52 AM
If you can, the militia and otherworldly feats make it easy to qualify for eldritch knight. Wiz5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty good. 17 BAB, casts as a level 19 wizard. If you like, toss two levels of eldritch knight and take a level of fighter and a level of spellsword. You lose one level of casting, but you gain the ability to ignore 10% arcane spell failure, while foregoing the need to pick a region that offers militia. Pick up a set of thistledown padded mithral twilight full plate and you're set.

EDIT:


According to my Monster Manual, a githyanki that multiclasses is called a 'gish'. Is that where the term comes from?

Indeed. When the original Fiend Folio appeared, the githyanki was the first monster to appear that was both able to cast spells and fight. Gish was given as the githyanki term for a fighter/wizard with this capability.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 01:01 AM
Well, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'Gish', the WotC optimization boards tend to have a lot of advice on how to make a somewhat difficult task easier. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=307309) is a good start.

Personally, what I'd recommend is 2 wizard (or sorceror)/4 fighter/5 abjurant champion/9 Swiftblade from WotC's site (the new one) or Knight phantom from the same place. Knight phantom gives more spellcasting, swiftblade makes your buffs better, and abjurant champion (complete mage) is like crack for a gish, never give up levels of it.

That's one way to do it. I perfer to go a more spell-heavy setup...

Sorc4/Pal2/SpellSword1/AbChamp5...

Here's my reasoning. Spells > all. 9th level spells >> anything else. Resists = less chance of spells screwing you over. So, Sorc4 gives me 2nd level spells casting off of Charisma. Pal2 gives me all martial weapon and all armor proficencies... and Charisma to all saves. Since I'm already going to be jacking up my Cha for my casting, I might as well get it to my saves too. Now then, SpellSword gives me +1 BAB and +1 Caster Level *AND* 10% reduction on Arcane Spell Failure. Congratulations, you can now wear a non-magical Mithral Chain Shirt without Arcane Spell Failure. Ditch the Mage Armor spell, you won't need it anymore. Right, now we've got the prereqs down, let's slide into Abjurant Champion5 for full BAB, full spellcasting, and fun abilities.

At level 13, he has a BAB of 11 and a Caster Level of 11. Not too shabby. He's also got a sword and mithral chain mail (no sheild because he needs a hand free to cast spells, and can drop down a Shield spell whenever he wants to because of Abjurant Champion) and fairly obnoxious saves. From here, decide what you want to do. With 7 class levels to go before you hit epic, it's entirely possible to get 9th level spells if you go full spellcasting progression. And while you may not have the hit points of a dedicated tank, you still have all the crack goodness of magic at your beck and call, with the ability to laugh at just about anything the other side is going to try and throw at you.

Aquillion
2007-08-19, 01:09 AM
Also, remember. No matter what build you use, you're going to suck for a few of those early levels when you have both mage and fighter (which you'll be terrible at) with no PRC to glue them together. Gish builds are best in a game where you expect to start at somewhat higher levels (at least high enough to start already inside your PRC), not at level 1. You still can manage it, but you won't be contributing so much early on.

...although Sorc / Pal seems like it would be a lot less painful, come to think of it, mainly since Paladins are so frontloaded and will give you abilities that'll partly carry you through those early levels just on account of your high Cha modifier.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 01:43 AM
Also, remember. No matter what build you use, you're going to suck for a few of those early levels when you have both mage and fighter (which you'll be terrible at) with no PRC to glue them together. Gish builds are best in a game where you expect to start at somewhat higher levels (at least high enough to start already inside your PRC), not at level 1. You still can manage it, but you won't be contributing so much early on.

...although Sorc / Pal seems like it would be a lot less painful, come to think of it, mainly since Paladins are so frontloaded and will give you abilities that'll partly carry you through those early levels just on account of your high Cha modifier.

Even Sorc/Pal is going to suck before level 10. Remember, Sorcerers are already behind Wizards a level in getting new spell levels. Now you're dropping it even further. At level 13, you are casting as an 11th level Sorcerer, which means 5th level spells. A pure Wizard/full spellcasting PrC build is caster level 13 and can cast 7th level spells. While the Gish can have Teleport, the Wizard has Teleport, Greater. While the Gish can have Solid Fog, the Wizard has Acid Fog. The Wizard also has Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Greater, Lesser Wish and Contingency. Of course, by level 20, this balances back out where both are casting 9th level spells (although the Gish only gets one, so he has to choose wisely).

Saph
2007-08-19, 06:08 AM
Sorc/Pal doesn't necessarily suck.

My favoured build (which works from lower levels) is Pal 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 8.

Over the 20 levels, you lose only 3 points of BAB and 13 HP compared to a straight-classed Paladin. You're also only one spell level behind a straight-classed Sorcerer. You can cast in light armour to begin with, and substitute mage armour once you get a couple of Abjurant Champion levels. You're never going to have quite the offensive power as a straight caster or fighter, but you can be very tough. The character I designed, at level 10, could get an AC of 40 or so with one round's preparation, and had saving throws in the 10-12 region. With Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, attack power didn't suck either.

The key is to focus on what you're good at - mainly, using all those great arcane defensive spells that are normally wasted on a wizard because she never gets into melee in the first place.

Or you could do it the easy way, and just play a Duskblade for all 20 levels. That works, too.

- Saph

Tengu
2007-08-19, 06:24 AM
What are Abjurant Champion's prerequesites?

Saph
2007-08-19, 07:51 AM
Proficiency with a martial weapon, 1st-level arcane abjuration magic, Combat Casting, and BAB +5. The last one is the hard one, but it's worth it for the benefits you get.

- Saph

yango
2007-08-19, 08:52 AM
Sorc/Pal doesn't necessarily suck.
You can cast in light armour to begin with, and substitute mage armour once you get a couple of Abjurant Champion levels.

IIRC Wizard's has acknowledged that Mage Armor does not work with Abjurant Armor, and that entry is a typo.

There is a feat in Complete Arcane that would let you cast in medium armor though.

The Mormegil
2007-08-19, 09:33 AM
I currently play a gish at ECL 18. High, true, but anyway.

This one is a golden dwarf Fighter 2/Battle Sorceror 4/Abjurant Champion 5/ Dwarf Defensor 1/Eldritch Knight 5/Spellsword 1.

Although it has taken one level in Dwarf Defensor for flavor and has 2 levels in warrior for nothing (Battle Sorceror +3 could have been better), it outranks the main fighter in pure strength. I was able to hit the Leviathan for 535 damage in a single round while he was having troubles inside his mouth... Why?

I have a better AC: defensive extended quickened buffs can help.
I have more hp, even though that is because of my being a dwarf defensor with a pair of Improved Toughness...
I deal more damages thanks to: Power Attack (granted via Bite of the Weretiger) at -17 for a grand total of +34 on a two-wielded weapon (Somatic Weaponry to cast); Burning Sword (SC), Energy Aura (SC) etc. to gain a, say, +5d6+1d8 to damages etc. etc.
I have more attacks thanks to Haste + Slashing Flurry (PHBII, feat).
I hit more times than he does thanks to Wraithstrike OR Distract Assailor, depending on the enemy (i.e. no sense on making a touch attack on a monk, better taking him flat-footed), even with that -22 on attack rolls due to feats...
I never die (quite true) since I can cast Ironguard (the most !!!!! spell for gishes, SC) and Indomitability (SC) and Contingency.
I EVEN HAVE MORE FEATS: Heroics (SC) explain why.

Otherwise, you can opt for my ONE-SHOT GISH:
Basically, one melee attack to blow-up an enemy. Maybe a little houserule needed for this, I'm not pretty sure you can use it, but who knows.

Duskblade 3/Monk (Decisive Blow monk, PHBII) 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Abjurant Champion 2/Spellsword 10/Abjurant Champion +2
OR
Duskblade 3/Monk (Decisive Blow monk, PHBII) 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Swordsage 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Spellsword 4/Abjurant Champion +2/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant champion +1

It is really simple: you channel, you make a decisive blow, you kill.
The rest is more or less arbitrary.
Psychic Warrior lets you have hurry, or whatever it's called, the psionic power that grants a free move action (used to channel).
Abjurant Champion's Arcane Boost is nice for having a few extra damages.
Jade Phoenix Mage gets Arcane Wrath at level 1 plus a few manouvres that are alway useful (especially boosts like Burning Blade and so on).


Enjoy your game!
>The Mormegil

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 03:02 PM
What is everyone's obsession with battle sorcerer? It has 'suck' written all over it. You're not going to be in it long enough to get the benifit of higher BAB and you loose spells known.

Another interesting build, clearly NOT an optimized Gish, is 2monk/sorc/Pal2/abchamp5/et al...

You loose two more spell levels. That hurts. But you get Evasion and +3 to all saves. That's good. Plus you can do this, and use the improved mage armor spell (Abjuration this time, I forgot what it was called, in spell compendium I think) and Carmindine Monk feat to get Cha to all saves, Cha to AC (on top of something like a +13 armor bonus from the armor spell with AbChamp5), Cha to cast with...

Zincorium
2007-08-19, 03:12 PM
What is everyone's obsession with battle sorcerer? It has 'suck' written all over it. You're not going to be in it long enough to get the benifit of higher BAB and you loose spells known.

Another interesting build, clearly NOT an optimized Gish, is 2monk/sorc/Pal2/abchamp5/et al...

You loose two more spell levels. That hurts. But you get Evasion and +3 to all saves. That's good. Plus you can do this, and use the improved mage armor spell (Abjuration this time, I forgot what it was called, in spell compendium I think) and Carmindine Monk feat to get Cha to all saves, Cha to AC (on top of something like a +13 armor bonus from the armor spell with AbChamp5), Cha to cast with...

1. Carmendine monk gives you the bonus based off of intelligence. Ascetic Mage, however, bases it off of charisma. Note that Ascetic mage also applies to the swordsage class feature.

2. You don't qualify for abjurant champion without taking another level of monk or paladin, due to the BAB requirement. Spellsword is doable, however.

3. Battle sorcerors can cast in light armor without penalty. Battle caster improves this by one category. Hello mithril full plate with no arcane spell failure chance. Note that Knight Phantom does this a bit later on but is a damn good prc in it's own right, blows eldritch knight out of the water. And it's available free on WotC's site.

Logic
2007-08-19, 03:20 PM
My build is such.

1 Fighter
8 Wizard
10 Eldritch Knith
1 Spellsword

The wizard levels can be substituted for any prestige class that you can qualify for, and only if you take an even number of levels for it.

Saph
2007-08-19, 03:38 PM
What is everyone's obsession with battle sorcerer? It has 'suck' written all over it. You're not going to be in it long enough to get the benifit of higher BAB and you loose spells known.

Higher BAB. D8 hit die. Cast in light armour. In exchange, you lose one spell a day per level (like a sorcerer doesn't have enough) and one spell known per level. That does hurt, but the extra survivability is worth it.

Starting with Sor4 means your HP is going to be frankly terrible, preventing you from getting into heavy melee combat until, well, ever (unless you're starting at 10th level or something). Kind of defeats the point of a gish.

- Saph

nooblade
2007-08-19, 03:43 PM
I'd like to see a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Duelist/Bladesinger, but that might be a little too complicated.

Crow
2007-08-19, 03:55 PM
I run a Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7. 17 BAB, 18CL.

Can somebody point me (link) to the Swiftblade and Knight Phantom? I've never heard of those ones.

Zincorium
2007-08-19, 04:32 PM
I run a Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7. 17 BAB, 18CL.

Can somebody point me (link) to the Swiftblade and Knight Phantom? I've never heard of those ones.

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) and Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) for you.

Both are very good, which helps make up for the fact that Gishes are inherently behind the power curves. Swiftblade actually started off as a terrible prc that no one wanted to use, and WotC actually listened to the optimization forums and did a rebuild of it.

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-19, 04:46 PM
Battle Sorcerer is an excellent gish on its own, but if you want to take any prestige classes it becomes weaker than a straight caster would be. Also, despite the 'canned' feel of the Duskblade class it is just about the best gish possible.

If you want something more elaborate than either of those, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 or Fighter 2/Wizard 4 leading into Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 7 would be one of your best bets.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 11:12 PM
Higher BAB. D8 hit die. Cast in light armour. In exchange, you lose one spell a day per level (like a sorcerer doesn't have enough) and one spell known per level. That does hurt, but the extra survivability is worth it.

Starting with Sor4 means your HP is going to be frankly terrible, preventing you from getting into heavy melee combat until, well, ever (unless you're starting at 10th level or something). Kind of defeats the point of a gish.

- Saph

Casting in light armor can be obtained from Knight Phantom at 1st level. Change in hit die isn't too big since early on, he's not going to want to mix it up in melee anyways. In exchange, you loose one spell known per level. Ouch. That's a real killer. If you want such a limited spell selection, go play a Warmage.

How about this, then... start off with Pal2 then Sorc4, then go on from there to SS/Abchamp/KnightPhantom.

With Pal2 starting off, you've got decent D10 hit dice to begin with, then start working up the magic with Sorcerer, then go on to progress in both.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-19, 11:21 PM
If you take a fighter level in a gish build, I would suggest that you take the variant fighter from the Complete Mage, as you lose medium and heavy armor prof, but gain the ability to cast in light armor, or medium if you take Battle Caster.

Zincorium
2007-08-19, 11:32 PM
Casting in light armor can be obtained from Knight Phantom at 1st level. Change in hit die isn't too big since early on, he's not going to want to mix it up in melee anyways. In exchange, you loose one spell known per level. Ouch. That's a real killer. If you want such a limited spell selection, go play a Warmage.


Knight phantom isn't exactly available everywhere, it requires the DM be willing to change the fluff and approve the class mechanically. "Your mileage may vary" is definitely in effect here.

Secondly, warmages suck not because of the number of spells they know, but because of the type of spells they know. Gishes are better off with a few good spells that they can buff with before combat rather than trying for the variety of save-or-suck spells of a normal caster.



How about this, then... start off with Pal2 then Sorc4, then go on from there to SS/Abchamp/KnightPhantom.


Which works well, but that's not really the point. There are lots of gish builds that work well.



With Pal2 starting off, you've got decent D10 hit dice to begin with, then start working up the magic with Sorcerer, then go on to progress in both.

With Pal 1/battle sorceror 4 you begin spellsword, and all other Prcs, a level earlier, and wind up a caster level ahead. And while there is a loss of spells known per level, it's still a minimum of 1 spell known per level. You're ahead on higher level spells, and if you look closely, with one spellcaster level ahead for the entire 20 levels, there's no net loss of spells until you reach the maximum of 5 per.

And you are one BAB ahead (which is another effective caster level with AC). And you have more hit points, in case the D8 vs d4 thing escaped your attention. Yes, you lost the 2nd level paladin ability, but I'd have gone fighter anyway.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-19, 11:44 PM
Knight phantom isn't exactly available everywhere, it requires the DM be willing to change the fluff and approve the class mechanically. "Your mileage may vary" is definitely in effect here.

Secondly, warmages suck not because of the number of spells they know, but because of the type of spells they know. Gishes are better off with a few good spells that they can buff with before combat rather than trying for the variety of save-or-suck spells of a normal caster.
There's 'knowing a few good spells' and 'not knowing enough spells to be worth anything'



With Pal 1/battle sorceror 4 you begin spellsword, and all other Prcs, a level earlier, and wind up a caster level ahead. And while there is a loss of spells known per level, it's still a minimum of 1 spell known per level. You're ahead on higher level spells, and if you look closely, with one spellcaster level ahead for the entire 20 levels, there's no net loss of spells until you reach the maximum of 5 per.
With Pal1, you don't get Cha to all saves, which is the whole point of the Pal/Sorc combo, otherwise I'd go with Wiz/Fighter and get even higher casting and BAB than a battle sorcerer could manage


And you are one BAB ahead (which is another effective caster level with AC). And you have more hit points, in case the D8 vs d4 thing escaped your attention. Yes, you lost the 2nd level paladin ability, but I'd have gone fighter anyway.

Then go fighter. But IMO Battle Sorcerer is hurt too badly by limited list of spells known to be effective.

Crow
2007-08-19, 11:52 PM
The Battle Sorcerer's spell selection is what makes it bad. A gish is a fighter first and a caster second. Go for spells that enhance your fighting ability before you go for trying to be a blaster.

Zincorium
2007-08-19, 11:55 PM
Then go fighter. But IMO Battle Sorcerer is hurt too badly by limited list of spells known to be effective.

But they aren't compared to what you proposed. The build I proposed knows exactly the same number of spells as the one you did, with two exceptions:

1. I lose a single 1st level spell when our builds reach 8th level, and so on. Guess what? They don't matter anymore. Neither does a 2nd level spell at level 12 (assuming knight phantom). And so on.

2. I get 2nd level spells a level before you. And 3rd, 4th, 5th and I think the pattern is sinking in.

If my build's spell selection sucks too badly to be played, and yours is worse, what does that say about your build?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-20, 12:46 AM
Sorc/Pal doesn't necessarily suck.

My favoured build (which works from lower levels) is Pal 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 8.

Over the 20 levels, you lose only 3 points of BAB and 13 HP compared to a straight-classed Paladin. You're also only one spell level behind a straight-classed Sorcerer. You can cast in light armour to begin with, and substitute mage armour once you get a couple of Abjurant Champion levels. You're never going to have quite the offensive power as a straight caster or fighter, but you can be very tough. The character I designed, at level 10, could get an AC of 40 or so with one round's preparation, and had saving throws in the 10-12 region. With Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, attack power didn't suck either.

The key is to focus on what you're good at - mainly, using all those great arcane defensive spells that are normally wasted on a wizard because she never gets into melee in the first place.

Or you could do it the easy way, and just play a Duskblade for all 20 levels. That works, too.

- Saph

The Battle Sorcerer Variant basically upgrades poor class hit die D4 and Poor BAB to D8 and Good BAB with No ASF in Light Armor at the cost of spell casting.

I am not aware of any rule that the Variant only provides the benefit only to the base class HD and poor BAB as spell casting is penalized at all levels.

I don't understand the games where it wouldn't also apply to any standard D4, Poor BAB arcane PRCs.

A 8 level mix of Mage or the Arcane Order and Arch Mage would be good choices although better could be found.

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-20, 01:15 AM
The Battle Sorcerer variant text doesn't say anywhere that 'all of a character's d4 hit dice are replaced with d8s' which means only the Sorcerer hit dice are modified. I think the same logic you're using can be applied to justify a Wizard9/Barbarian1/Loremaster10 gettting d12 hit dice and full base attack for all of its Loremaster levels. The game just doesn't work that way.

Also, with the BS nerfed spellcasting Archmage will never be a good option.

MrNexx
2007-08-20, 01:20 AM
FWIW, the reason I think Warmages are not as fun as they could be is because they're weirdly limited. If I were redesigning them, I'd boost their BAB to 3/4 and their HD to a d8, and give them a few more melee damage spells (like Flame Blade); let them take advantage of being armored wizards, and give them some options for self-defense.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-20, 01:51 AM
Hexblade -> Warmage -> Duskblade shows how they've been working on the "Out of the box Gish" concept over the years. The first is more Melee, the second more Arcane, and the third actually seems to blend the 2 more seamlessly(6th vs 4th and 9th?, Full BAB, Cleric HD, and powers that work with both sides, like Arcane Channeling).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-20, 02:39 AM
The Battle Sorcerer variant text doesn't say anywhere that 'all of a character's d4 hit dice are replaced with d8s' which means only the Sorcerer hit dice are modified. I think the same logic you're using can be applied to justify a Wizard9/Barbarian1/Loremaster10 gettting d12 hit dice and full base attack for all of its Loremaster levels. The game just doesn't work that way.

Also, with the BS nerfed spellcasting Archmage will never be a good option.

I disagree I am talking about D4 Poor BAB arcane classes and the Sorcerer Variant tweaking the class Hit Die and BAB at the cost of limiting spellcasting.

UA Variant Character classes on page 47: Hit die: Changes to the class's Hit Die.

Sorcerer class HD is normally D4 and changed to D8 by the variant it should apply to standard arcane D4 PRCs because it has already been paid for and will be paid through 20 levels.

Base Attack Bonus: If the class uses a different base attack bonus, this entry gives the column to use (good, average or poor).

Sorcerer class BAB is normally Poor and improved to average it should apply to standard Poor BAB arcane PRCs again because it has already been paid for and will continue to be paid for through 20 levels.

Class Features: Changes, additions, or subtractions to the class's special features including spellcasting.

I don't see the logic behind applying your Loremaster PRC example changes to gain Good BAB and D12 because it follows Barbarian what variant rules are you using?

Agreed Archmage isn't the best PRC mix as I posted earlier but it is in the DMG and is still generally better than non PRC levels.

My example:

Standard Sorcerer - 5, MotAO - 10, ACM - 5 it has 20D4, Poor +10 BAB and Full Spellcasting with ASF penalties in armor.

Using the Variant rules the same build would receive 20D8 and Average +15 BAB with Limited Spellcasting and No ASF in light armor.

Most games shouldn't have a problem interpreting and applying the variant to D4 Poor BAB PRCs as there are so many better builds available. If it is a problem in one of those games use one of those other builds that are better mechanically.

Zincorium
2007-08-20, 02:52 AM
I disagree I am talking about D4 Poor BAB arcane classes and the Sorcerer Variant tweaking the class Hit Die and BAB at the cost of limiting spellcasting.

I don't see the logic behind applying your Loremaster PRC example changes to gain Good BAB and D12 because it follows Barbarian what variant rules are you using?

Um, what variant rules are you using where previous classes affect hit dice and BAB of future classes? There are 0 precedents for this.

A battle sorceror getting a d8 hit die is the same as a cleric. If you take a PrC that has a d4 hit dice, that doesn't change.

The character gets hit dice based on what class you take, whether base or prestige, and when you have stopped taking a class that gives you that hit dice or base attack bonus, you get the hit dice and base attack bonus of whatever class you take next, that's a very basic concept.


Now, yes, the sorceror has paid for the BAB and hit dice with poor spellcasting, and they'll continue to do so. Guess what? That makes sense. If you were concentrating on spellcasting, it would be a bad class variant to take. There is no rule that it has to be fair.

To put it another way, does a bard's poorer spellcasting get compensated for by improving existing prestige classes? A paladin's? No. Never has. That poor spellcasting but better class features thing for the sorceror works exactly the same way.


Edit:

Because it's possible I misunderstood, are you suggesting creating variant prestige classes with D8 hit dice and medium attack bonus, only usable by battle sorcerors? I can see that, and it would mostly work.

However, such a thing isn't automatic, and that's what I thought you were suggesting.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-20, 03:22 AM
Um, what variant rules are you using where previous classes affect hit dice and BAB of future classes? There are 0 precedents for this.

Now, yes, the sorceror has paid for the BAB and hit dice with poor spellcasting, and they'll continue to do so. Guess what? That makes sense. If you were concentrating on spellcasting, it would be a bad class variant to take. There is no rule that it has to be fair.

To put it another way, does a bard's poorer spellcasting get compensated for by improving existing prestige classes? A paladin's? No. Never has. That poor spellcasting but better class features thing for the sorceror works exactly the same way.


As I posted earlier UA page 47 along with UA pages 56 - 57 I'm not using the SRD.

We are using the Variant rules to change a base standard class the Sorcerer to another base class the Battle Sorcerer.

Most Wizard's PRCs are designed with existing base classes in mind and give options to improve on them in some form.

The variant rules option is basically introducing a new class.

***When Wizard's introduces a new class in a source book they normally introduce several PRCs for the class. That is the logic I am applying in a PRC campaign.***

If someone is using the Variant rules in a game to play a Battle Sorcerer I interpret that it also applies to ALL previous (D4 and Poor BAB) Sorcerer PRCs designed by Wizard's.

That is the standard to keep it simple. It has to have been a Wizard's Arcane D4 Poor BAB PRC and only the Battle Sorcerer class receives the benefit of D8 and Average BAB.

If this standard is to much for someone's game or campaign I'd just make one of the other stronger builds that no one has an issue with.

Zincorium
2007-08-20, 03:33 AM
As I posted earlier UA page 47 along with UA pages 56 - 57 I'm not using the SRD.


I'm aware. But that doesn't change a darn thing.



We are using the Variant rules to change a base standard class the Sorcerer to another base class the Battle Sorcerer.


And it ends there. Just like any other class variant.



Most Wizard's PRCs are designed with existing base classes in mind and give options to improve on them in some form.

The variant rules option is basically introuducing a new class.

When Wizard's introduces a new class in a source book they normally introduce several PRCs for the class.


Because it's a new book. Of course they're going to put new prestige classes in, that has nothing to do with the conversation.



That is the logic I am applying in a PRC campaign.


It isn't logic.



If someone is using the Variant rules in a game to play a Battle Sorcerer I interpret that it also applies to ALL previous (D4 and Poor BAB) Sorcerer PRCs designed by Wizard's.


Why should it? It only changes a single base class.



That is the standard to keep it simple. It has to have been a Wizard's Arcane D4 Poor BAB PRC.

If this standard is to much for someone's game I'd just make one of the other stronger builds that no one has an issue with.


There are no wizard prestige classes. There are no sorceror prestige classes. There are just arcane spellcasting prestige classes, and the variant simply does not apply as written.

The variant rules option is a new option for the sorceror base class. That's it.


Again, if it's a custom rule variant I understand, but expecting other people to automatically play that way is outright stupidity.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-20, 04:14 AM
The variant rules option is a new option for the sorceror base class. That's it.


Again, if it's a custom rule variant I understand, but expecting other people to automatically play that way is outright stupidity.

The OP wants some options.

UA introduced the Variant rule for the Battle Sorcerer class back in 2004.

It is a good example of how we read and interpret things differently.

I wouldn't qualify the UA variant rule it as a new option since it was introduced several years ago back in 2004 for the sorcerer base class while you consider that it is new.

I interpret the UA variant rule to also apply to the D4, Poor BAB Arcane PRCs designed by Wizard's that would normally apply to the core sorcerer because whenever Wizard's introduces a new base class they normally introduce several PRCs for it.

Now it's up to the OP and his DM to decide in their game if any of the information we posted so far was useful.

Zincorium
2007-08-20, 04:30 AM
The OP wants some options.

No, the OP asked what would be the BEST fighter mage. And options have been given that don't require strange rulings involving supposed logic based off of wizard's marketing tactics as opposed to how the game works.



UA introduced the Variant rule for the Battle Sorcerer class back in 2004.


And sorcerer came out in the 3.0 PHB. The battle sorcerer is new compared to the normal kind.



It is a good example of how we read and interpret things differently.


It's not a different reading, you are changing other things to fit with a variant that is like all class variants only affects the class it's a variant of. I'm reading it to mean that a sorcerer with that variant gets D8 hit dice and cleric BAB for each sorcerer level. And that's where the book and my reading stops. It absolutely does not say that prestige classes for sorcerors (which there aren't any specifically for sorcerors, name a single one that only applies to sorcerors and I'll eat my hat) follow the same changes.



I wouldn't qualify the UA variant rule it as a new option since it was introduced several years ago back in 2004 for the sorcerer base class while you consider that it is new.


Again, it isn't newer than the sorceror class.



I interpret the UA variant rule to also apply to the D4, Poor BAB Arcane PRCs designed by Wizard's that would normally apply to the core sorcerer because whenever Wizard's introduces a new base class they normally introduce several PRCs for it.


First off, that's just how wizards does business, it doesn't set a precedent for changing existing classes because a new variant is published.



Now it's up to the OP and his DM to decide in their game if any of the information we posted so far was useful.

And I'm sure he will. If the DM is favorable to making a house rule of the same type you did, battle sorcerer becomes really, really good instead of just fairly good.

lord_khaine
2007-08-20, 04:39 AM
1. Carmendine monk gives you the bonus based off of intelligence. Ascetic Mage, however, bases it off of charisma. Note that Ascetic mage also applies to the swordsage class feature

where did you find the rule that says ascetic mage also apply to swordsages?

Zincorium
2007-08-20, 04:46 AM
where did you find the rule that says ascetic mage also apply to swordsages?

The Ascetic mage description, to whit: "If you would normally be allowed to add your wisdom bonus to AC (such as for an unarmored, unencumbered monk) you instead add your charisma bonus (if any) to AC".

Swordsage's level 2 ability allows you to add your wisdom bonus to AC, so you get to add your charisma bonus instead. It's not a ruling of any sort, it's just general enough that the swordsage's ability falls under it.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-20, 05:44 AM
Ascetic Mage also applies to Ninja, since it takes the Monk's Wis to AC ability practically word for word. Of course, Ninja uses Wis for the Ki uses, so this might be slightly less useful.

Bosh
2007-08-20, 07:32 AM
I'd like to see a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Duelist/Bladesinger, but that might be a little too complicated.
Too many caster levels being lost there, it would end up frightfully sucky.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-20, 07:40 AM
But they aren't compared to what you proposed. The build I proposed knows exactly the same number of spells as the one you did, with two exceptions:

1. I lose a single 1st level spell when our builds reach 8th level, and so on. Guess what? They don't matter anymore. Neither does a 2nd level spell at level 12 (assuming knight phantom). And so on.
No, you loose a 1st level spell known starting level ONE if your sorcerer progression.


2. I get 2nd level spells a level before you. And 3rd, 4th, 5th and I think the pattern is sinking in.

If my build's spell selection sucks too badly to be played, and yours is worse, what does that say about your build?

Mine will withstand far more than yours will, despite the marginally fewer hit points. Keep in mind that on average a d4 is 2 hit points, a d8 is 4 hit points, and a d10 is 5 hit points. So at level 6, I have Pal2/Sorc4 and you have Pal1/BSorc4/SS1. 1st level is auto-cap, so Pal will have 10 hit points each. I will then get on average another 5 from my second Pal level, then 2 hit points a level from sorcerer for another 8 for a total of 23. You will be getting on par 4 hit points a level then 3 from your SS's D6 hit die. So you will be getting 29 hit points as opposed to my 23, oh no... a whole whopping 6 hit points. In exchange I will be boosting ALL my saves by my Charisma mod, which I will be doing everything to get as high as possible. This will mean I can shrug off Save or Suck and Save or Die effects that you will be screwed over, which is FAR more dangerous than a few measly hit points.

Look at your spells known chart. Subtract one from every number (except 1's who stay put). At 6th level, I have 4th level Sorc, you have effective 5th level BattleSorc because of your Spellsword level. I have 6 cantrips, 3 1st level spells, and 1 2nd level spell known. You have... 5 cantrips, 3 1st level spells, and 1 2nd level spell. Umm... oops... who has more spells? Now take this to 10th level. I grab a spellsword level then go AbChamp, you just go straight AbChamp. I'm at 8th caster level, you're at 9th. Now let's look at it. I have 8/5/3/2/1 known. You have 7/4/3/2/1. You know one fewer 1st level spell and 1 fewer cantrip than I do.

Sure, you get your 1st spell known a level before I do. But you don't get your second one until I do. In the meanwhile, I will have more spells known than you, which gives me greater tactical flexability.

Droodle
2007-08-20, 07:41 AM
Best Gish? How about Bard (savage bard variant) 8/Swiftblade2/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade 8? The build gives good will saves and decent reflex and fortitude saves (the UA variant bard gets good fort saves). You only lose three levels of Sublime Chord casting, finish out with a 17 BAB, get access to some druidic summons (from the UA bard variant), and can cast in light armor. Optimize the build for charging. I'd go with Dodge and Mobility (at one), Power Attack (3), Arcane Strike (6), Leap Attack (9), Improved Bullrush (12), and Shock Trooper(15). Shock trooper is especially good with a build like this since, by level 15, your enemies are already going to have a 50% chance of missing you regardless of your armor class if you are hasted. With the extra action haste gives you at high levels, your charge attacks will be especially nasty when you combine arcane strike, Shock Trooper, and Leap attack. Throw up a mirror image along with casting haste, and non-casters will pretty much never hit you.

yango
2007-08-20, 07:54 AM
I'd like to see a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Duelist/Bladesinger, but that might be a little too complicated.

Theres also the issue that the Swashbucker, Duelist, and Bladesinger are all relatively weak/underpowered classes.

Zincorium
2007-08-20, 07:55 AM
No, you loose a 1st level spell known starting level ONE if your sorcerer progression.


At second level, your character doesn't even have spells. The fact that I get fewer than a normal sorceror at level 2 is still better than that. And by level three, we're even except for a cantrip. And those aren't a matter of character power.



Mine will withstand far more than yours will, despite the marginally fewer hit points. Keep in mind that on average a d4 is 2 hit points, a d8 is 4 hit points, and a d10 is 5 hit points. So at level 6, I have Pal2/Sorc4 and you have Pal1/BSorc4/SS1. 1st level is auto-cap, so Pal will have 10 hit points each. I will then get on average another 5 from my second Pal level, then 2 hit points a level from sorcerer for another 8 for a total of 23. You will be getting on par 4 hit points a level then 3 from your SS's D6 hit die. So you will be getting 29 hit points as opposed to my 23, oh no... a whole whopping 6 hit points. In exchange I will be boosting ALL my saves by my Charisma mod, which I will be doing everything to get as high as possible. This will mean I can shrug off Save or Suck and Save or Die effects that you will be screwed over, which is FAR more dangerous than a few measly hit points.


Um, averages are 5.5, 4.5, and 2.5 for d10's, d8's, and d4's. Just as a point of fact.

And honestly, enjoy the charisma to saves. As a fighter, I don't worry about losing my class features nearly as much.



Look at your spells known chart. Subtract one from every number (except 1's who stay put). At 6th level, I have 4th level Sorc, you have effective 5th level BattleSorc because of your Spellsword level. I have 6 cantrips, 3 1st level spells, and 1 2nd level spell known. You have... 5 cantrips, 3 1st level spells, and 1 2nd level spell. Umm... oops... who has more spells? Now take this to 10th level. I grab a spellsword level then go AbChamp, you just go straight AbChamp. I'm at 8th caster level, you're at 9th. Now let's look at it. I have 8/5/3/2/1 known. You have 7/4/3/2/1. You know one fewer 1st level spell and 1 fewer cantrip than I do.


I know 1 fewer spell and 1 fewer cantrip, and you're calling that a win? Higher level spells > lower level spells. The fact that I'm getting those higher level spells a level faster than you is what I stated was important.

And you're just repeating what I already said back at me. I never stated that I always had more spells. But I do have the good ones at least as early.

And I have a higher caster level and BAB, which is what a gish is for.

The fact of the later game is, if you take knight phantom, you won't get 9th level spells pre-epic. I will.



Sure, you get your 1st spell known a level before I do. But you don't get your second one until I do. In the meanwhile, I will have more spells known than you, which gives me greater tactical flexability.

You won't have more spells (other than a freaking cantrip) until we're 9th level. When you get 1, a 1st level spell. We're casting 4th level spells and you're crowing about a level 1?





Y'know, as massively hostile as you are, you have yet to have a shred of evidence that the battle sorcerer has an unusably low spells known count compared to the build you put up for inspection. Face it, the battle sorcerer isn't as bad as you were boasting about, and the numbers show it.

Droodle
2007-08-20, 08:04 AM
Face it, the battle sorcerer isn't as bad as you were boasting about, and the numbers show it.QFT. The great thing about the battle sorcerer is that you don't need to blow caster levels on warrior classes in order to Gish well. A Battle Sorcerer 20 is actually quite strong without having to go through those devastatingly weak points early in the build (most would be gish's die at low levels since the ability to both fight and cast spells poorly isn't really an asset). The Battle Sorcerer knows and casts a few spells less, but casts them every bit as well as a standard sorcerer. This is a big deal.

yango
2007-08-20, 08:51 AM
QFT. The great thing about the battle sorcerer is that you don't need to blow caster levels on warrior classes in order to Gish well. A Battle Sorcerer 20 is actually quite strong without having to go through those devastatingly weak points early in the build (most would be gish's die at low levels since the ability to both fight and cast spells poorly isn't really an asset). The Battle Sorcerer knows and casts a few spells less, but casts them every bit as well as a standard sorcerer. This is a big deal.

To be fair, a regular Sorcerer or Wizard can enter the gish role just fine, since there are plenty of gish classes that have no armor requirement, Militia can fill the weapon proficiency requirements, and Greater Luminous Armor + Shield + Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor will provide more AC than most Armor.

Person_Man
2007-08-20, 09:39 AM
Yep, been around since at least early 2nd edition (possibly earlier, that's the first game I heard it in, though.)

But yeah, it was a lot easier in 2nd where you were, say, a 7th warrior/ 8th mage instead of a 8th level fighter or 9th level mage (numbers not exact, it's been a while since I dug out my old 2nd ed books) for the same experience.


Githyanki were on the cover of the 1st ed Fiend Folio. It was the first time TSR ever published a Fighter/Magic User, and once they did, the idea caught on and has stuck ever since. Thus "Gish" became shorthand for Fighter/Magic User, and eventually Fighter/Wizard.


If you just want the most powerful version of "I hit things and can use arcane magic," I suggest the Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3). Is has access to every domain spell, and thus it has access to most of the useful arcane spells, while maintaining access to every divine spell, with no arcane spell failure due to armor. Find a good PrC, and you're set.

If you go with any of the standard arcane Gish options, I would suggest using an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm). You can invest your highest level spell slot in your Item Familiar, and it can cast it on its own as a Standard Action, giving you a big action advantage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-20, 09:50 AM
At second level, your character doesn't even have spells. The fact that I get fewer than a normal sorceror at level 2 is still better than that. And by level three, we're even except for a cantrip. And those aren't a matter of character power.
No, instead he has a higher BAB, more hit points, and Charisma to all saves. My character will be able to tell that Wizard with Sleep to go sit on a bush, you, on the other hand, will be snoozing and CDG'd.


Um, averages are 5.5, 4.5, and 2.5 for d10's, d8's, and d4's. Just as a point of fact.

And honestly, enjoy the charisma to saves. As a fighter, I don't worry about losing my class features nearly as much. And when you eat a save-or-suck, I'll be enjoying being able to continue doing what I'm doing.


I know 1 fewer spell and 1 fewer cantrip, and you're calling that a win? Higher level spells > lower level spells. The fact that I'm getting those higher level spells a level faster than you is what I stated was important.

And you're just repeating what I already said back at me. I never stated that I always had more spells. But I do have the good ones at least as early.

And I have a higher caster level and BAB, which is what a gish is for. You have ONE higher BAB. That's not much of a difference. And you rape your own spell level superiority by screwing over your spells known.


The fact of the later game is, if you take knight phantom, you won't get 9th level spells pre-epic. I will.
Fine. I don't even need KP. I get Mithral Chain Shirt, no ASF with one level of SpellSword. Don't need that much AC. Why? Because with my superior number of spells known, I can afford to get things like Mirror Image to make it nearly impossible to hit me in the first place.


You won't have more spells (other than a freaking cantrip) until we're 9th level. When you get 1, a 1st level spell. We're casting 4th level spells and you're crowing about a level 1?And by 20th character level level, I will have an extra spell known at EVERY level except 8th and 9th, where we both will have two and one respectively. That means I can afford to pick up not only Teleport, Greater, but I can afford to indulge in Spell Turning to further my immunity to magic and let's go with Finger of Death as a save-or-die effect.


Y'know, as massively hostile as you are, you have yet to have a shred of evidence that the battle sorcerer has an unusably low spells known count compared to the build you put up for inspection. Face it, the battle sorcerer isn't as bad as you were boasting about, and the numbers show it.

Oh, I've been putting up a lot of evidence, you just been arbitrarily dismissing it.

I also think we have a basic difference in our definition of 'gish'. I see a gish as a caster who can fight. You clearly see it as a fighter who can cast. In my opinion, the battle sorcerer sucks, because the Sorcerer's main limitation is spells known, and you're only making it that much worse.

If I really wanted a 'gish' build that would steamroll yours, I'd go Fighter1/Wizard5/Knight Phantom9/AbChamp5. Mine has still higher BAB and better spell selection than yours, making him far more flexable, and able to run in Mithral Full Plate like yours does. He can pull off everything yours does better with proper preparation, but that gets into a whole wiz vs sorc argument that is irrelevant.

The build I put forth is superior to yours because of his survivability. The first time you get into combat with a caster, you're going to get screwed when he hits your weak save with a Save or Loose, and Gish builds have some problems when it comes to saves, particularly when it comes to reflex saves. But of course, I'm crusin' around with Cha bonus to all saves, which is going to be around +6-+8 at the endgame, and even low levels should be at least +4-+6. Starting Cha at 18, by level 8 that's a Cha of 20, with a Cloak of Charisma +4 for a 22, giving a +6 to all saves. Granted, that takes up my cloak slot for a cloak of saves, but I can get a vest of resistance, or even a ring of resistance, just as easily. I'll also be sporting things like Mirror Image to keep people from hitting me in the first place, which is far superior to mere AC, which still won't be too shabby.

Of course, the build that would spank both of ours is Swordsage2/Wiz/SS/AbChamp/JadePheonixMage. Swordsage 2 gives Wis to AC. Grab Carmindine Mage to switch that to Int, and it even works when you're in light armor, so slap on some Mithral Chain, and be better off than if he were in Mithral Full Plate with no ASF. of course, that's ToB... it's supposed to spank anything not a pure caster or ToB...

Edit: If you're wanting pure casting and spanking, to be honest, go Cleric 20. No PrC needed. DMM Persist, Extra Turning. Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might every day for full BAB, size category increase, DR/evil, OMG bonuses to Str, and full cleric spellcasting with plenty of Save or Suck and Save or Die action, and party healing and buffing on the side.

Leon
2007-08-20, 10:25 AM
Battle Sorcerer is a nice alternate to the horrid mishmash of class X/Class Y/Class Z builds, it gets you casting, combat ability and survivability with out the need to chop and change

Sure Duskblade can do the same things slightly better but its only realativly new and is more restricted on its spell choice

My Fav
Battle Sorcerer 10/Warcaster 10 + Battlecaster Feat + Breastplate Warcaster Armour = More Focus for you (since you dont need to expend it to negate your ASF)

That and at low levels, Chainshirt + Armoured Greatcoat is the Win

Crow
2007-08-20, 11:14 AM
I don't want to get way too into this, as I've already posted what my favorite gish build is, but I had a comment.

If you are planning to use Sorcerer levels to act as your arcane magic, you really want those "Spells Known". Even with a standard sorcerer (which my build gets to CL18), you are going to be hurting for spells known, especially in the 5th, 6th, and 7th levels...Not so much the lower ones, and not so much the higher...those are just bonus.

But if you use a variant that limits anything in 5,6, or 7, you're going to have to make some really tough choices.

Also, generally you want to look at a gish as a whole, rather than just as BAB and CL. In most CharOp competitions, a good gish is required to have at least 16 BAB, and cast 6th level spells. That's not too bad. Not every gish needs 18 BAB and 9th level spells. Pay attention to those class features that don't neccessarily show through when looking at the stats!

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-20, 12:27 PM
I've played Battle Sorcerers more than any other class since they came out. Spells known are not an issue. You don't have time to use every buff in existence before a combat ends. What you need are several simple buffs like Bull's Strength, Enlarge Person and Haste, several spell slots to blow on Arcane Strike (For which you qualify before any other class) and the Heighten Spell feat to let three save-or-lose spells last through your career.
Crow is right in saying that you hurt for spells in those levels, but the three low-leveled buffs I mentioned earlier help quite a bit.
You won't out-cast a wizard with a Battle Sorcerer, but that isn't the point. The point is to be able to fight about as well as a fighter while still gaining access to high-leveled spells at the same rate as a full caster.
The level of the spells, as Zincorium says, is the most important thing. It is the evidence held against the Sorcerer class in any Sorc/Wiz comparison thread.


No, instead he has a higher BAB, more hit points, and Charisma to all saves. My character will be able to tell that Wizard with Sleep to go sit on a bush, you, on the other hand, will be snoozing and CDG'd.

And when you eat a save-or-suck, I'll be enjoying being able to continue doing what I'm doing.
You really are flaunting those lost caster levels, aren't you?


Fine. I don't even need KP. I get Mithral Chain Shirt, no ASF with one level of SpellSword. Don't need that much AC. Why? Because with my superior number of spells known, I can afford to get things like Mirror Image to make it nearly impossible to hit me in the first place.

You have ONE higher BAB. That's not much of a difference. And you rape your own spell level superiority by screwing over your spells known.
I think not taking Knight Phantom makes it a difference of FIVE base attack. That is one attack per round that you miss out on. Unless you're saying that you want to lose out on 9th level spells entirely.
I also think that missing out on higher level spells your entire career (being an entire spell level behind your wizard) actually does more to screw your spells known than missing out on a couple of your low-leveled spells.

Anxe
2007-08-20, 01:05 PM
You could just play a Hexblade. That's what I do when I want casting and fighting.

Droodle
2007-08-20, 05:52 PM
To be fair, a regular Sorcerer or Wizard can enter the gish role just fine, since there are plenty of gish classes that have no armor requirement, Militia can fill the weapon proficiency requirements, and Greater Luminous Armor + Shield + Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor will provide more AC than most Armor.The problem isn't armor. It's surviving when your HP, BAB, and spellcasting all suck. A Battle Sorcerer sidesteps all 3 and, since he'll usually have more caster levels than a Gish built off a regular sorcerer, he isn't actually hamstrung by fewer spells known*. If you PRC into Swiftblade, the need for extra spells is greatly reduced. After Haste gets augmented by the Swiftblade levels, spells like Blur, Blink, and Displacement, and even Timestop all become redundant.

A sorcerer6/Fighter1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight will have 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1/ for spells known and a BAB of 17. The Sorcerer/Paladin does even worse, since he won't know any level 9 spells.

A Battle Sorcerer15/Abjurant Champion will have 8/4/4/3/3/3/2/2/2/2 and a BAB of 16. Sure, the Battle Sorcerer will have less lower level spells known, but he knows one more level 9 spell. He has far more HP and if I wasn't being so lazy about optimizing the Battle Sorcerer build, he'd have an even better BAB without having to lose any caster levels.

Crow
2007-08-20, 06:52 PM
The problem isn't armor. It's surviving when your HP, BAB, and spellcasting all suck. A Battle Sorcerer sidesteps all 3 and, since he'll usually have more caster levels than a Gish built off a regular sorcerer, he isn't actually hamstrung by fewer spells known*. If you PRC into Swiftblade, the need for extra spells is greatly reduced. After Haste gets augmented by the Swiftblade levels, spells like Blur, Blink, and Displacement, and even Timestop all become redundant.

A sorcerer6/Fighter1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight will have 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1/ for spells known and a BAB of 17. The Sorcerer/Paladin does even worse, since he won't know any level 9 spells.

A Battle Sorcerer15/Abjurant Champion will have 8/4/4/3/3/3/2/2/2/2 and a BAB of 16. Sure, the Battle Sorcerer will have less lower level spells known, but he knows one more level 9 spell. He has far more HP and if I wasn't being so lazy about optimizing the Battle Sorcerer build, he'd have an even better BAB without having to lose any caster levels.


Dude, all you're gaining with your Battle Sorcerer is 1 9th level spell, which is worthless in comparison to the 7 other spells you've lost. Some of the best spells are found in the 5-7 range and you lose a couple of those for 1 9th level spell? That's not worth it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-20, 08:53 PM
Dude, all you're gaining with your Battle Sorcerer is 1 9th level spell, which is worthless in comparison to the 7 other spells you've lost. Some of the best spells are found in the 5-7 range and you lose a couple of those for 1 9th level spell? That's not worth it.

I... wouldn't be so sure about that... if it's your only 9th level spell.

With a 9th level spell, you can pull off Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect, using that Celerity to Sudden Maximize Time Stop to give me four rounds to do whatever I want to do in it. Then I have seveal options:

1) The 'nova' method. Sure, it's inefficent, but it works. 4 Delayed Blased Fireballs. 80d6 damage, Reflex for half. Have a nice day. Very handy to drop on Cleric type mobs whose only weakness is Reflex.

2) DimLock/Forcecage/Cloudkill. This is an auto-kill on any melee class not immune to Poison (like... oh yea... PALADINS, and Monks). With Greater Shadow Evocation, I don't have to pay the rediculous price to cast, and can use it to cast my Contingency as well.

3) Walk up into melee with a wizard, drop an AMF. Now it's Gish vs Wizard in a no-spells zone. Let's rock.

This is to say nothing about Gate or Shapechange cheeze.

Crow
2007-08-20, 09:16 PM
I can't for the life of me find Celerity...Which book?

excrtd
2007-08-20, 09:26 PM
PHB II I think.

Crow
2007-08-20, 09:39 PM
With a 9th level spell, you can pull off Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect, using that Celerity to Sudden Maximize Time Stop to give me four rounds to do whatever I want to do in it.

You're not going to be able to drop a metamagic spell...That takes a full-round action for Sorcerers now, and you won't be able to Contingency Greater Celerity.

You will get to drop a standard Time Stop for 2-5 rounds...This isn't the point though.

You can be a one-trick pony with your gish if you want. In fact there are dozens of theorhetical (probably spelled that wrong) builds which can do much worse than the scenarios you painted above. If I so wished we could trade doomsday scenarios with eachother all day long and neither of us would win the argument.

The point is that you are losing valuable spell slots, and a single 9th level spell just isn't worth the versatility you lose when you are designing a playable character (i.e. meant to be played in actual games). Every one of your scenarios goes out the window if I win initiative and drop Anti-magic on myself and walk up to you first.

Damionte
2007-08-20, 10:52 PM
My Gish build is a party crafter.

Fighter-2/Wizard-3/Spellsword-10/Effigy Master-5

He makes a very good 5th or 6th man in an adventuring party. He is sword and board specced for the improved shield bash line. With Combat reflexes and hold the line on the fighter side. + Mounted combat for a bit of character.

On the wizard side he is mostly a utility caster. He tends to pack those nitch use utility spells. Things like Knock, Hold Portal, or Sleep. feat wise he's specced out to be a crafter.
Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand, Craft Arms & Armor & craft Wondrous Items.

Character wise I play him as your typical Knight. Which is why he has mounted combat.

He's a good character and works very well for what he is designed to do.

does he fit the OP questio of best...? Yes I'd say so. Asking what the "best" is is kind of a little kid question anyway. Especially since you don't ask what he's supposed to be best at.

This one is best for filling out the crafter role while bringing utility casting and a secondary fighter to the table.

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-21, 12:01 AM
Crow- I think all Sorcerers take Rapid Metamagic nowadays so they can get the most mileage from their limited spell lists.

Contingency combined with Celerity is pretty standard fare as far as any sort of caster goes. Using the best spells in the game doesn't necessarily make you a One-Trick-Pony, either, especially when they aren't the trick itself, merely a means of pulling off the buffing a Gish build needs to function optimally.

Deepblue706
2007-08-21, 12:17 AM
Without something like Militia, I think the best way to go is Fighter1/Wizard5/EldritchKnight1/SpellSword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7 (I believe Jackmann may have posted something like this earlier?).

BAB 17 and CL 18 at level 20. Not spectacular HP, and rough at low-levels...best played when you can start as support rather than the primary arcanist or warrior.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-21, 02:09 AM
I recommend this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=150451)

This (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D18443%26highlight%3Dguide%20d uskblades)if you want a duskblade.

Also there is the Rauthmari battlemage in the Unnappraochable East.

Duskblade is more easy, with no multiclassing and whatnot, but less versitile and more melee. It's just a fighter with a twist of arcane. Fighter/Wizard/X/X or whatever has much more options with spells though.

And if you want more build ideas:
Step 1: go to http://www.google.com
Step 2: enter whatever you're searching for, plus "site:http://boards1.wizards.com" (without the quotation marks)
example: searching for "spiked chain site:http://community.wizards.com"

Leon
2007-08-21, 03:01 AM
Dwarf
Ftr 1/Wiz 5/Runesmith 5/Geometer 4/Abjurant Champion 5

Droodle
2007-08-21, 04:51 AM
I... wouldn't be so sure about that... if it's your only 9th level spell.

With a 9th level spell, you can pull off Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect, using that Celerity to Sudden Maximize Time Stop to give me four rounds to do whatever I want to do in it. Then I have seveal options:

1) The 'nova' method. Sure, it's inefficent, but it works. 4 Delayed Blased Fireballs. 80d6 damage, Reflex for half. Have a nice day. Very handy to drop on Cleric type mobs whose only weakness is Reflex.

2) DimLock/Forcecage/Cloudkill. This is an auto-kill on any melee class not immune to Poison (like... oh yea... PALADINS, and Monks). With Greater Shadow Evocation, I don't have to pay the rediculous price to cast, and can use it to cast my Contingency as well.

3) Walk up into melee with a wizard, drop an AMF. Now it's Gish vs Wizard in a no-spells zone. Let's rock.

This is to say nothing about Gate or Shapechange cheeze.Exactly. Lets also not forget that a Battle Sorcerer Gish is also quite a bit more durable than your typical Gish. He has a much higher chance of actually surviving low level play, and he'll always know more of his highest level (ie most powerful) spells than his caster level sacrificing counterparts....at least, until epic. Not only will he always know more of his highest level spells, but he'll also be able to cast them more often. A sorcerer/Gish with a caster level of 18 will be able to cast his single 9th level spell 3 times. The Battle Sorcerer Gish with a CL of 20 will be able to cast his two 9th level spells 5 times. The Paladin/Sorcerer can't even cast 9th level spells. The Battle Sorcerer also has an advantage when using Dispel Magic or attempting to overcome spell resistance. Sure, his level sacrificing cousin can take Practiced Spellcaster, but he has to waste a feat that could be better used elsewhere on it.

My only complaint about the Battle Sorcerer is the fact that he doesn't get good Fortitude saves.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-21, 09:17 AM
i play with underking and i know for a fact that we don't have races of stone.

anyways, me and his brother play dwarves, we don't need more....:smalltongue:

Crow
2007-08-21, 04:28 PM
The only extra spells your example gets is one 9th level spell, for which you give up a handfull of spells from some of the best spell levels!

Zincorium
2007-08-21, 04:41 PM
The only extra spells your example gets is one 9th level spell, for which you give up a handfull of spells from some of the best spell levels!

One each. And you have spells of two levels higher by then, three levels very shortly afterwards. Which means they aren't worth nearly as much. If you didn't grab them the first time you got spells, they won't mean much when you lose them.

Quality Vs quantity. Higher level spells faster is always a good thing.

And as far as spell selection goes: Scrolls. You're gonna be using them anyway for uncommon spells. No matter what build you use, you're never going to have as many spells known as a straight up caster, so not much point fretting about it.

Droodle
2007-08-22, 07:30 AM
The only extra spells your example gets is one 9th level spell, for which you give up a handfull of spells from some of the best spell levels!Yeah. And it's worth it. The difference in power level between level 9 and level 8 spells isn't even funny. As the above poster stated, quality over quantity. Also, the Battle Sorcerer can cast his high level spells more often....which is a good thing. He'll also be far more durable. I can't stress enough that the problem with most Gish builds is keeping them alive until they reach a level where they are actually effective. The Battle Sorcerer is effective right out of the box.