The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion

[CockroachTeaParty]

I recently got my claws on a copy of Ultimate Wilderness, because I have a problem, and I keep buying Pathfinder books. I have enough of them! I should stop!

Anyway, there's all sorts of interesting tidbits in Ultimate Wilderness; it's actually kind of all over the place.

I mainly want to discuss the new Shifter class.

Shifter is a new 20 level base class. Full BAB, d10 HD, druid weapon and armor proficiencies. While the Hunter was supposed to be a hybrid of Druid and Ranger, the Shifter seems to be a hybrid of Druid and... Hunter, oddly enough.

Shifters have a claw attack that scales in usefulness as they level, and they get access to minor shapeshifting forms that function almost identically to the Hunter's Animal Focus feature, with nearly the same variety of animals to choose from. They also get wildshape, like a druid, but are limited to the forms of their chosen animal aspects, functioning as beast shape II with a few extras as they level up.

I'm... puzzled by them. Not sure what they are really for. They seem to continue the Hunter's trend of 'diluting the druid,' but aside from worse spellcasting the Hunter's animal companion was just as good, if not better than a druid's. But the Shifter's wild shape ability is more limited than the druid's, and even with the better chassis (BAB, HD, etc.) they really trail behind. Animal aspect and scaling claws are no match for 1-9 divine casting from a buffs angle alone.

There is a feat squirreled away in UW that one might miss: Shifter's Edge. It lets a Shifter that uses Weapon Finesse with their claws to add their class level to damage, sort of like a Swashbuckler's precise strike or a Paladin's smite evil, but always-on. I thought 'hey, this is pretty neat,' and did some MATH:


The following is hardly the most optimized route one could take. I picked level 6 since it's when druids get access to beast shape II, and level 12, which is the last level druids get an upgrade to their wild shape abilities. The druid is focusing on STR with self-buffing casting, and the shifter is going for DEX to use Shifter's Edge for the damage boost on claws. The shifter relies on Tiger form for pounce, or perhaps deinonychus (them's the only two what gets pounce).

This is using the standard array for ability scores: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 before racial mods, and assuming some vague WBL mostly based off the Automatic Bonus Progression rules from PF Unchained.

Level 6 Human Druid
STR 18 [26], DEX 12 [10], CON 13, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10
Feats: Toughness, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw); +6 hp favored class
BAB +4, Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +10, up to 3rd level spells
+1 resistance to saves, +1 deflection AC, +2 WIS
barkskin, longstrider, bull’s strength, greater magic fang

dire tiger form, 50 ft. speed (longstrider)
HP: 48 (+6 CON, +6 favored class, +6 Toughness)
AC: 15 (+0 Dex, +4 natural, +1 deflection, +3 barkskin, -1 size, -2 charge)
Attack: +13/+13/+12 (+4 BAB, +8 STR, +1 WF, +1 greater magic fang, +2 charge, -1 size, -2 Power Attack)
Damage: claw 2d4+13; bite 2d6+13, (+8 STR, +1 GMF, +4 Power Attack)
CMB grapple +19 (+4 BAB, +8 STR, +1 WF, +1 GMF, +2 charge, +4 grab, +1 size, -2 Power Attack)


Level 6 Human Shifter
STR 13 [17], DEX 18, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 10
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shifter’s Edge, Power Attack / Piranha Strike, Weapon Focus (claw); +6 hp favored class
BAB +6, Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +5
+1 resistance to saves, +1 deflection AC, +1 amulet of mighty fists, +2 WIS
tiger minor form active (+2 DEX, canceled out by -2 DEX from large animal form)

dire tiger form, 40 ft. speed
HP: 55 (+12 CON, +6 favored class)
AC: 19 (+4 DEX, +4 natural, +1 deflection, +3 defensive instinct, -1 size, -2 charge)
Attack +11/+11/+10 (+6 BAB, +4 DEX, +1 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -1 size, -2 PA)
Damage claw 2d4+14; bite 2d6+8 (+3 STR, +6 Shifter’s edge, +1 enhancement, +4 PA)
CMB grapple +15 (+6 BAB, +3 STR, +1 enhancement, +2 charge, +4 grab, +1 size, -2 PA)


That’s pretty terrible! Let’s switch over to deinonychus with tiger minor form
STR [15] DEX [20]
AC: 19 (+5 DEX, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +3 defensive instinct, -2 charge)
Attack +13/+13/+12 (+6 BAB, +5 DEX, +1 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -2 PA)
Damage: 2 talons 1d8+13; bite 1d6+7 (+2 STR, +6 Shifter’s edge, +1 enhancement, +4 PA)
No grab!

THAT DOES NOT LOOK GOOD.

Let’s skip ahead, shall we?

Level 12 human druid
STR 24 [30], DEX 12 [8], CON 13 [17], INT 8, WIS 18, CHA 10
Feats: Toughness, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Weapon Focus (claw), 2 free; +12 hp favored class
BAB +9, Fort. +15, Ref. +8, Will +16
+4 STR, +4 WIS, +3 resistance, +2 deflection, +1 wild stone plate, +3 amulet of mighty fists
spells up: barkskin, greater longstrider, bear’s endurance, stone skin, strong jaw (claws), bloody claws

Warcat form, 70 ft. speed, climb 30 ft. (greater longstrider) (Allosaurus accomplishes much the same thing, but no climb speed)
HP: 117 (+12 favored class, +12 Toughness, +36 CON)
AC: 18 (+6 natural, +5 barkskin, +2 deflection, +10 armor, -2 size, -1 DEX, -2 charge); DR 10/adamantine
Attack +20/+20/+19 (+9 BAB, +10 STR, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -2 size, -3 PA)
Damage: 2 claws 2d8+19 +6 bleed; bite 2d6+19 +6 bleed +grab (+10 STR, +3 enhancement, +6 PA)
CMB grapple +27 (+9 BAB, +10 STR, +3 enhancement, +2 charge, +2 size, +4 grab, -3 PA)

Level 12 human shifter
STR 13 [21], DEX 20 [22], CON 18, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shifter’s Edge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Heavy Armor Proficiency, Toughness, 1 free; +12 hp favored class
BAB +12, Fort. +15, Ref +17, Will +10
+4 CON, +4 WIS, +3 resistance, +2 deflection, +3 amulet of mighty fists, +1 wild stone plate

Dire tiger form, 40 ft. speed
tiger and bull lesser forms active (+4 DEX and STR)
HP 142 (+12 Toughness, +12 favored class, +48 CON)
AC 25 (+6 DEX, +4 natural, +2 deflection, +6 defensive instinct, +10 armor, -1 size, -2 charge)
Attack +19/+19/+18 (+12 BAB, +6 DEX, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -1 size, -4 PA)
Damage: 2 claws 2d4+28 +grab; bite 2d6+16 +grab (+5 STR, +3 enhancement, +8 PA, +12 shifter’s edge)
CMB grapple +24/+24/+23 (+12 BAB, +5 STR, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, +1 size, +4 grab, -4 PA)


Now, I tried shuffling things around for the Shifter to focus on STR over DEX and screw Shifter's Edge, but the feat really does make a difference; the STR Shifter lags even further behind, although they wind up with a better CMB for grappling.

So what the hell does the above mess mean?

Well, the Shifter will pull ahead on HP and AC, thanks to their DEX focus and their defensive instinct class feature (WIS+scaling bonus to AC if they aren't wearing armor). And at the higher levels, they seem to start pulling ahead damage wise thanks to Shifter's Edge. But their numbers are very similar, if not slightly worse, than a properly buffed druid, at least when it comes to attack rolls and CMB.

It's worth noting that the druid is running several buffs; their numbers would be less impressive without those buffs, while the shifter is only relying on items from their WBL.

HOWEVER, the druid also has a fully functional animal companion to bring to the table, and can take the shape of whatever they damn well please. By level 12, the Shifter only has three choices of wild shape forms.


****
Now, this might all just be comparing apples to oranges. I don't think anybody can reasonably compare the Shifter to the Druid; few classes can. But I am left wondering what niche the Shifter is meant to fill.

Are they similar to a Swashbuckler, a nimble high damage skirmishing type? Or are they like a different flavor of barbarian, more focused on natural attacks and transforming themselves in a fight to be more effective?

Only two of the Shifter's wild shape options give them pounce; you could go for some kind of overrun/bull rush build with the Bull, and the Bear form seems pretty killy. But pounce is often the best choice when it comes to natural attack builds from what I can gather...

I'll be fiddling with things as time progresses, and might even try putting together a guide once I wrap my head around it more. But for those of you with access to Ultimate Wilderness, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

[Galacktic]

The Shifter is a leftover bowl of soup made out of half eaten meals from a week ago. The Hunter is better at being a Shifter if they shoot their dog.

[Mehangel]

While I agree that by the numbers the Shifter is not the "worst thing ever", it is greatly disappointing that it is worse at its shtick than any other previously published shapeshifting archetype. I would've hoped that the 'shapeshifting' class would be the best or atleast tied for best at shapeshifting, instead we got the '****ter'.

Ultimate Wilderness's magical plants looked intriguing at first, but ultimately you are probably better off with just Brew Potion.

While a great deal of feats looked intriguing, I have to say that a couple of feats seemed unnecessary and could've instead been written as a skill use expansion. Case in point, Animal Call; Was it really necessary to require a feat in-order to make a convincing animal sound?

[CockroachTeaParty]

While a great deal of feats looked intriguing, I have to say that a couple of feats seemed unnecessary and could've instead been written as a skill use expansion. Case in point, Animal Call; Was it really necessary to require a feat in-order to make a convincing animal sound?

That's been Pathfinder's curse for a while now; it infuriated me less than Ultimate Intrigue, where many common sense usages of social skills became locked behind pointless feats.

What ARE all of the shapeshifting archetypes? I quickly lose track of them. Is there a wild shaping ranger, for instance? That seems better out of the gate than a shifter by a mile.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty
Is [there] a wild shaping ranger, for instance? That seems better out of the gate than a shifter by a mile.

The feral hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter/archetypes/paizo-hunter-archetypes/feral-hunter/) is close—it gains limited wild shape at fourth level, with access to animal forms but not plants or elementals. It's pretty much my favorite thing from the ACG.

[ATHATH]

The feral hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter/archetypes/paizo-hunter-archetypes/feral-hunter/) is close—it gains limited wild shape at fourth level, with access to animal forms but not plants or elementals. It's pretty much my favorite thing from the ACG.
So a Feral Hunter can do everything that a Shifter can do better than a Shifter can?

Well then.

[Eldaran]

I'm so confused why their wildshape is worse than the druids. One of the coolest things about shapeshifting is the versatility it grants, but the Shifter is stuck with just a few forms. I'd rather play a Druid and never cast a single spell than play a Shifter. BAB isn't even super important for natural attack builds.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Maybe it's the 'unchained summoner' of wild shape builds? Dumb it down and reduce the number of options to speed up play? *shrug*

[thecrimsondawn]

Gonna be honest. I have only talked to people about the class so far, but Lords of the Wild by DSP (currently in playtest too) is far and away better then what I am hearing, even if its focused more heavily on werewolves then shifting in general.

[Starbuck_II]

The feral hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter/archetypes/paizo-hunter-archetypes/feral-hunter/) is close—it gains limited wild shape at fourth level, with access to animal forms but not plants or elementals. It's pretty much my favorite thing from the ACG.

Unlimited duration animal focus/free action.

So at first level better than shifter at shifting...

[Castilonium]

I'm... puzzled by them. Not sure what they are really for. ... I am left wondering what niche the Shifter is meant to fill.
They're for players who want to play a non-caster shapeshifter. They're absolutely terrible, but that's the niche they fill. You know how some players swear up and down by playing a rogue, and absolutely refuse to play a refluffed alchemist, investigator, slayer, bard, or ranger, because they stubbornly want to write "rogue" on their character sheet? It's kind of like that. Like you and several other people have mathematically proven, there is mechanically nothing they do that other classes like druid and feral hunter don't do better.

Are they similar to a Swashbuckler, a nimble high damage skirmishing type?
Swashbuckler is another notable flop. They're not good at skirmishing at all, and no, being able to spend panache to increase their acrobatics result doesn't count as having good mobility. Their mechanics don't support the high-flying, acrobatic action combat you see in Robin Hood, Zorro, or Three Musketeers. Their mechanics demand that they stand in one place and full attack, just like most other martials.

[CockroachTeaParty]

They're for players who want to play a non-caster shapeshifter. They're absolutely terrible, but that's the niche they fill. You know how some players swear up and down by playing a rogue, and absolutely refuse to play a refluffed alchemist, investigator, slayer, bard, or ranger, because they stubbornly want to write "rogue" on their character sheet? It's kind of like that. Like you and several other people have mathematically proven, there is mechanically nothing they do that other classes like druid and feral hunter don't do better.


I'd rather play an unchained rogue than a slayer, TBH. Unless there's been some recent development that makes slayer better than vanilla ice-cream?

[Castilonium]

Alright, you got me, slayer wasn't a great example. Let's pretend I said inquisitor instead :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

They're for players who want to play a non-caster shapeshifter. They're absolutely terrible, but that's the niche they fill. You know how some players swear up and down by playing a rogue, and absolutely refuse to play a refluffed alchemist, investigator, slayer, bard, or ranger, because they stubbornly want to write "rogue" on their character sheet? It's kind of like that. Like you and several other people have mathematically proven, there is mechanically nothing they do that other classes like druid and feral hunter don't do better.

Swashbuckler is another notable flop. They're not good at skirmishing at all, and no, being able to spend panache to increase their acrobatics result doesn't count as having good mobility. Their mechanics don't support the high-flying, acrobatic action combat you see in Robin Hood, Zorro, or Three Musketeers. Their mechanics demand that they stand in one place and full attack, just like most other martials.

What would help Swashbuckler want to be more mobile Skirmish type damage boosts?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Upon finally looking over the class, I can't begrudge it as much as others are. The druid might be better in every way except BAB and hit dice, and while I do wish that the class perhaps got a few bonus feats to take advantage of that high BAB and no limit to the aspects, I think the class is serviceable. And, better than that, it's at least archetypal. I'm reminded in several ways of the character Zamia from Throne of the Crescent Moon, and I'm sure there are a hundred other characters in fantasy fiction I am not naming. While casters may do it better, it's ALWAYS been that way. And while it may not mean much coming from a Slayer apologist (it functions rather well from my experience, and I hate the ranger with an irrational passion), I'm glad of the meta niche, a druidic martial that hews away from the ranger that can use magic without having to have spells (though I thought the class would be a 4th-level caster like paladins). I know players that would feel like they would be scared off by a druid or even a feral hunter, that this would appeal towards.

Edit: Actually, with the Improved/Greater Spring Attack feats, mobile warriors might be a thing now. Additionally I am a huge fan of the Skirmisher fighter archetype.

[Wartex1]

I second DSP's stuff for shapeshifting, but also the Shifter class in Spheres of Power, which has a new archetype in playtest which gives it access to Spheres of Might too.

[Thealtruistorc]

Edit: Actually, with the Improved/Greater Spring Attack feats, mobile warriors might be a thing now. Additionally I am a huge fan of the Skirmisher fighter archetype.

What do they do? I'm curious now.

[Milo v3]

The book does have a few gems in it (primarily in the archetype chapter and the wilderness rules chapter). Some good things include kineticist archetypes which aren't trash and are actually really cool, the ability to grow hotdog-trees, exploration rules for GMs who want something abit more involved than "Okay you travel for x many days and then there is a random encounter", brawler gets some neat archetypes, barbarians can get swallow whole, the ability to play an investigator as a pseudo-science scholar instead of a pseudo-science chemist, cavaliers who ride giant dinosaurs, druidic-style vigilantes.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Milo v3
The book does have a few gems in it (primarily in the archetype chapter and the wilderness rules chapter).

Given the title, I would think the wilderness rules would get more attention.

What about them is gem-like? Are they useful enough to justify the cost of the book?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What do they do? I'm curious now.

They can be taken at 9 and 16 BAB, basically let you do iteratives on different targets for Spring Attack. It has its weaknesses, like not being able to utilize Haste or any other ways of getting multiple attacks, and requiring extra prereqs (Nimble Moves for ISA, Acrobatic Steps for GSA), and you can't target different targets. Add themselves to the monk bonus feats, though.

[EldritchWeaver]

There is a feat squirreled away in UW that one might miss: Shifter's Edge. It lets a Shifter that uses Weapon Finesse with their claws to add their class level to damage, sort of like a Swashbuckler's precise strike or a Paladin's smite evil, but always-on. I thought 'hey, this is pretty neat,' and did some MATH:

...

Well, the Shifter will pull ahead on HP and AC, thanks to their DEX focus and their defensive instinct class feature (WIS+scaling bonus to AC if they aren't wearing armor). And at the higher levels, they seem to start pulling ahead damage wise thanks to Shifter's Edge. But their numbers are very similar, if not slightly worse, than a properly buffed druid, at least when it comes to attack rolls and CMB.

Shifter's Edge is going to be errataed to grant only half of the level as a bonus. I'm not sure what numbers are actually expected to be competitive (in particular a fighter, because a shifter is a martial after all), but are they currently so high, that the shifter needs a nerf?

[Draacul]

Shifter's Edge is going to be errataed to grant only half of the level as a bonus. I'm not sure what numbers are actually expected to be competitive (in particular a fighter, because a shifter is a martial after all), but are they currently so high, that the shifter needs a nerf?
Wait,WHAT?!
Shifter is barely playable as is.It won't be especially OP if given Stalker's maneuver progression and they plan to NERF IT?!

[Slithery D]

Wait,WHAT?!
Shifter is barely playable as is.It won't be especially OP if given Stalker's maneuver progression and they plan to NERF IT?!

It’s supposed to work like the similar vigilante talent, half level to damage and you have to use strength, not dex, for damage.

[Rynjin]

Shifter's Edge is going to be errataed to grant only half of the level as a bonus. I'm not sure what numbers are actually expected to be competitive (in particular a fighter, because a shifter is a martial after all), but are they currently so high, that the shifter needs a nerf?

Don't forget it's also getting nerfed to be incompatible with Dex to damage methods. It only works if you use Dex to-hit and Str to damage.


Maybe it's the 'unchained summoner' of wild shape builds? Dumb it down and reduce the number of options to speed up play? *shrug*

This did become the stated design goal after everybody said "I hate this WTF did you do". They have also conveniently ignored any of the questions about "Why did you keep telling us we could become an owlbear and other hybrid animals when we can barely become non-hybrid animals?"

The Shifter is pure **** and there's no amount of spin they can put on it to change that. It fills no conceptual or mechanical niche and is generally uninspired schlock. Just like most playtest stage classes have been since the start of the game. Difference is this one didn't get a playtest because the poor widdle designers got their feelings hurt by people telling them the thing they made wasn't good and needed fixing. The class is so bad they banned discussion about it in the product thread until yesterday because it was the vast majority of what people wanted to talk about. Polite discussion, mind you, I was following the thread. The best thing anybody's said for it is "My 9 year old nephew kinda liked it when I let him read the book".

The rest of the book isn't much better than the Shifter. There's a couple of minor gems (Green Knight Cavalier and Venomfist Brawler come to mind, as well as the Totemic Initiate Feat line despite the inane useless Feat tax it requires, which is par for the course for Pathfinder) but the book as a whole isn't even worth the $9.99 PDF price. I feel sorry for people that bought the hardcover. Just wait for all the material to come upon the SRD in a month. Hard avoid.

[Draacul]

It’s supposed to work like the similar vigilante talent, half level to damage and you have to use strength, not dex, for damage.
Isn't vigilante,you know,caster?3/4 caster,in fact?My memory is kinda foggy on this one because i tried really hard to erase vigilante from it.
Can't melee combatants ever have nice things from Paizo?

[exelsisxax]

Isn't vigilante,you know,caster?3/4 caster,in fact?My memory is kinda foggy on this one because i tried really hard to erase vigilante from it.
Can't melee combatants ever have nice things from Paizo?

Vigilante has no casting at all, so no it really doesn't compare.

You may be thinking about the Warlock, an archetype for the vigilante that rips out most of being a vigilante and gives 6/9 wiz/sorc casting as a magus and get some SLA abilities.

[Drifter S.]

I find it funny how I was tentatively excited for Shifter ever since it was first announced, but had my low expectations exceeded by depths I thought not possible to the point that everywhere I look only shows more disappointment, and yet this month's player companion (People of the Wastes) managed to take me by surprise by taking what are usually massive red flags on their own ("gun-using archetype" and "alchemist archetype"), and managing to give me something that not only surprised me in quality, but even made me excited to want to use it for my next character. Really makes me wonder if some of the better designers are being sidelined by Paizo playing it too safe with the core line.


Wait,WHAT?!
Shifter is barely playable as is.It won't be especially OP if given Stalker's maneuver progression and they plan to NERF IT?!

Don't forget it's also getting nerfed to be incompatible with Dex to damage methods. It only works if you use Dex to-hit and Str to damage.

To be fair, making it be half level and requiring it to use Str for damage puts it in line with an equivalent option, Lethal Grace, a Vigilante Talent. A talent which is probably one of the better ideas to come from Paizo. That feat getting "nerfed" is the least of Shifter's problems. It's a class that can function, but CRB fighter, monk, and rogue "could function" and everyone knows how that worked out.


Isn't vigilante,you know,caster?3/4 caster,in fact?My memory is kinda foggy on this one because i tried really hard to erase vigilante from it.
Vigilante is potentially a lot of things, Caster is only one way to go thanks to archetypes. I recommend looking at the class again rather than trying to forget it, Dual Identity's stigma of "batman in my fantasy games" (something you can quite easily ignore or fluff to taste) and the dubious usefulness of the Appearance feature line aside, it's an excellent piece of design. Quality of individual talents and archetypes vary, but the framework is good... Which makes Shifter being so bad even more laughable, since it had such a better initial pitch than Vigilante did. Comparing the two is like looking at opposite extremes.

On a more general note, the Spring Attack chain looked cool for about 10 seconds. Then I looked at their prerequisites and was reminded that Paizo seems to make feats as though every class got one every level, rather than every other level, which was hammered in further when I looked at the rest of the feats. I guess it's another thing to hope a GM combines into an auto-scaling feat, like so many other feat chains. The Familiar and animal companion sections, while I didn't get a chance to thoroughly examine them, seemed pretty good though. Aside from some of the clarifications "fixing" things that weren't really breaking anything. Rest in peace Mauler-familiar-Magical Child and Tumor Protector familiar.

[CockroachTeaParty]

So they're going to nerf Shifter's Edge, eh? :smallsigh:

Why? It already has plenty of limitations. You can ONLY use it on claws. If you're pouncing or full attacking, you'll only get two attacks with them, three if you have haste. Any other archery or weapon-based character enjoys their full suite of iterative attacks.

If you had to nerf it, why not just call it precision damage, like the swashbuckler's precise strike?

Poor shifter...

[Drifter S.]

So they're going to nerf Shifter's Edge, eh? :smallsigh:

Why? It already has plenty of limitations. You can ONLY use it on claws. If you're pouncing or full attacking, you'll only get two attacks with them, three if you have haste. Any other archery or weapon-based character enjoys their full suite of iterative attacks.

If you had to nerf it, why not just call it precision damage, like the swashbuckler's precise strike?

Poor shifter...

You know, I was going to contest this by saying it worked on all natural attacks in wildshape, but then I went to check the wording and... It doesn't actually do that as-written, unless you really really stretch the wording of the Shifter Claws class feature. Wow. On the bright side, I'm pretty sure the monk archetype that gets Shifter claws will still make great use of it. Shame that said archetype doesn't work with Unchained Monk though.

[Rynjin]

I find it funny how I was tentatively excited for Shifter ever since it was first announced, but had my low expectations exceeded by depths I thought not possible to the point that everywhere I look only shows more disappointment, and yet this month's player companion (People of the Wastes) managed to take me by surprise by taking what are usually massive red flags on their own ("gun-using archetype" and "alchemist archetype"), and managing to give me something that not only surprised me in quality, but even made me excited to want to use it for my next character. Really makes me wonder if some of the better designers are being sidelined by Paizo playing it too safe with the core line.

This has been the case for a while. The soft cover teams can actually focus on making good content without needing to pad it out with 50+% filler to complete the ridiculous word count mandates Paizo has for the hardcover books.

They also don't have Buhlman breathing down their necks all the time so they can actually make good content without him spazzing out.

Not ALL the softcovers are good but more good ones have come out recently than hardcovers, that's for sure. The X Tactics Toolbox and Y Master's Handbook series of books have some meh stuff in them but are overall really great, for instance. Even the bad stuff (like Ranged Trip/Disarm being so gimped) is at least INTERESTING.

[Draacul]

I
Vigilante is potentially a lot of things, Caster is only one way to go thanks to archetypes.I recommend looking at the class again rather than trying to forget it
I mean,at absolute very least Vigilante is 6/9 caster.Shifter isn't under any circumstances.
And i admit that i just didn't like the chassis of Vigilante.Idea is nice,but it's too underpowered for my tastes.I blame Dreamscarred Press.
But now i look at Shifter and suddenly understand that Vigilante isn't actually THAT bad!And neither was Ultimate Intrigue in general!
But why listen to me,when you can look at the first feat in Feats chapter's benefit:
" If you are unable to act in the surprise round
because you failed a Perception check, you can still act on
your initiative count in the surprise round, but only to take
the total defense action"
/facepalm
I also do find it...interesting that neither Druid nor Hunter don't get any archetype that gives them shifter claws.
Apparently somebody in design realized how this would look compared to Shifter.

[Kurald Galain]

About those assorted other things...

I get the impression the book contains a whole lot of really bad feats. Of the situational kind that you'll use maybe twice over the whole campaign and then they give only a +1 or +2 bonus for that. That could probably have gone better...

[Rynjin]

I
I also do find it...interesting that neither Druid nor Hunter don't get any archetype that gives them shifter claws.
Apparently somebody in design realized how this would look compared to Shifter.

I mean, that Feat already exists. It's called Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast).

You could also just be a:

Catfolk
Skinwalker (slap on some Warrior levels and you're already a better shapeshifting "class" than the Shifter!)
Tengu
Tiefling

And then be whatever class you like. I suggest Druid (Feral Hunter or Nature Fang to really piss in the Shifter's Cheerios. They're weaker, but still better than ol' Shifty), Feral Hunter Hunter, Metamorph Alchemist, or any of the million better 3PP Shifter classes. Including the Feral Heart Soulknife which isn't that great at shifting in the grand scheme, but still fills the Shifter's role of being a simple melee brute with animal flavor quite admirably and much better.

[Draacul]

About those assorted other things...

I get the impression the book contains a whole lot of really bad feats. Of the situational kind that you'll use maybe twice over the whole campaign and then they give only a +1 or +2 bonus for that. That could probably have gone better...
So,apart from Shifting Edge pre-errata and maybe possible Wildling line in some campaigns,what else is good?
"
I mean, that Feat already exists. It's called Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast).
Getting claws is trivially easy.But getting Shifter Claws class ability is not,for some reason.In fact,unless search function is trolling me,apart from Shifter,the only class that gets it is Monk archetype.Strangely enough,i'm not sure that it's actually a buff.Using spear with flurry of blows kinda makes more sense for a monk.

[Kurald Galain]

So,apart from Shifting Edge pre-errata and maybe possible Wildling line in some campaigns,what else is good?

Nature-bounded Magus, perhaps. Well it isn't great because it gives up arcane pool (of all things) but it does get a decent AC bonus plus druid spells. At the least it's interesting.

Fey form line of spells. More polymorph is always fun.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
I get the impression the book contains a whole lot of really bad feats. Of the situational kind that you'll use maybe twice over the whole campaign and then they give only a +1 or +2 bonus for that.

You’re not the only one who had this impression. Check out this one-star review (https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Wilderness/dp/1601259867/) on Amazon, which just went up yesterday, in which he writes that 95% of the book’s feats are weaker than most traits.


Originally Posted by Milo v3
The book does have a few gems in it (primarily in the archetype chapter and the wilderness rules chapter).

Given the context, I’m all the more interested in whether the wilderness rules are the book’s only saving grace.

Are these rules that actually improve and intensify a wilderness campaign, or are they as timid as the rest of the book seems to be?

[Draacul]

Nature-bounded Magus, perhaps. Well it isn't great because it gives up arcane pool (of all things) but it does get a decent AC bonus plus druid spells. At the least it's interesting.

Fey form line of spells. More polymorph is always fun.
I actually liked that divine-casting bard.It doesn't surrender anything of note except Inspire Courage(and then i would debate that in some circumstances buffing AC and Reflex might be useful,too).

[Rynjin]

Getting claws is trivially easy.But getting Shifter Claws class ability is not,for some reason.

Because it's such a non-feature that even the design team didn't think anyone would care to drop a Feat on it? Just take a single level dip in the class.


About those assorted other things...

I get the impression the book contains a whole lot of really bad feats. Of the situational kind that you'll use maybe twice over the whole campaign and then they give only a +1 or +2 bonus for that. That could probably have gone better...

Not only that, it also contains nerfbombed versions of previously good Feats (a huge chunk of this book is just reprints, many of which AREN'T changed mind you, part of the reason it's such a waste of money to even drop a tenner on it). They neutered the Wolf Savage Feat (capstone to the Wolf Style line) to the point it kills the whole Feat chain, essentially. Instead of giving you the ability to Bestow Curse on targets you attack that are prone, it now can only make them Fatigued or deal 1d4 Con or Cha damage (that cannot take them to 0 stat).

The rest of the Feats were pretty meh in themselves, but really good set-ups to enable Wolf Savage to go off. All in all a good Feat line. Now it's not worth taking since ALL of the Feats are meh and their synergy doesn't mean much when they synergize together to form nothing special.

[Drifter S.]

Personally, if I can convince my DM to let me trade out the summoning features of Feral Hunter for things, I'd do it in a heartbeat rather than look at Shifter. Stuff like Aspect of the Beast, Wild Speech, Wild Spell, and possibly even stuff from the new Wildling line.


So,apart from Shifting Edge pre-errata and maybe possible Wildling line in some campaigns,what else is good?

Getting claws is trivially easy.But getting Shifter Claws class ability is not,for some reason.

My eyes keep glazing over when skimming feats, since so many are just filler. I'd argue the Wildling line is really anemic for what it gives, especially since it's mutually exclusive with many things, but that's a preference thing since it at least DOES someting. The Totem Initiate line is taxed and has an annoying pounce limiter to shaft hopeful Fighter players, but it has its uses, especially with a kind GM willing to waive the natural attack restriction. Mutated shape is hilarious as it buffs Druid/Feral Hunter wild shape by handing them a natural attack so long as they have 19 Wisdom, almost mocking the Shifter for not having a good reason to have that much Wisdom.

Archetype wise? The Venomfist Brawler comes to mind as being pretty nice, especially since it stacks with the Mutagen archetype for some fun shenanigans. There was also the Forester Hunter, which while not too amazing, was decent enough to feel like it put another nail in Shifter's coffin by having ALL-DAY Animal Aspect along with a bunch of bonus features for losing its animal companion.

Nature Bound Magus to me is a complete travesty of a cool idea, and I wish access to some Druid spells was either just a native part of the Magus Spell list (Produce Flame and Flame Blade should be on there already!) or at least an Arcana instead. Pretty much everything from Alchemist has me feeling similarly, though at least the Thorny Bomb discovery and Ice Chemist archetype sit in "sidegrade" territory rather than "nerfed old content" or "interesting but mediocre".

[Ninjaxenomorph]

For the Fighter, while the Viking archetype is a reprint, the Skirmisher fighter is very intriguing. Armor Training is the only thing of note it gives up besides armor heavier than light, but it gets 4 skill ranks, some save boosts, and a flat 20% miss chance as its capstone instead of Armor Mastery.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Let's see... things I like...

I like leshys! I've been strangely obsessed with them ever since I discovered they were a thing, and now there's a playable leshy race. It's... okay. BUT YOU CAN BE A LITTLE PLANT GUY WITH AN ACORN FOR A HAT!

Also there's a giant tardigrade familiar, which makes me cackle with glee.

Having a giant skunk animal companion strikes me as awesome; I haven't scrutinized their stats to see if they're any good though.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is complaining about the races. I'm glad to see them getting expanded upon. A lot of the subsystems in the book are of varying usefulness; while there's always 'any GM worth his salt could have houseruled this before' like with the trophies, I enjoy the new herbs and magic plants. The former reminds me of one of the more fun parts of Rolemaster, and the latter is a lovely setting addition.

While the reprints are pissing a lot of people off, I only had, like, one of the books it drew from, so I'm not complaining.

[Slithery D]

Let's see... things I like...

I like leshys! I've been strangely obsessed with them ever since I discovered they were a thing, and now there's a playable leshy race. It's... okay. BUT YOU CAN BE A LITTLE PLANT GUY WITH AN ACORN FOR A HAT!

Also there's a giant tardigrade familiar, which makes me cackle with glee.

Having a giant skunk animal companion strikes me as awesome; I haven't scrutinized their stats to see if they're any good though.

How did you like the psychic disciplines?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty
Let's see... things I like...

...And the wilderness rules?

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is complaining about the races.

A lot of people are peeved that plant type races/immunities were hardcore nerfed in general with the release of those races (or re-release, at least in the case of the ever-delicious Ghorans).

[Milo v3]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is complaining about the races. I'm glad to see them getting expanded upon.
I don't like the races. Yay... nerfed reprints and a race which shows artists don't know what the word Vine means (because apparently they think vines look like groot). Their stupid justification that they nerfed the races so they can play druids is ridiculous when they also removed things unrelated to polymorphing and because they already have instances of allowing creatures to use class abilities that their creature type would normally prevent (such as undead barbarians still gain morale bonuses from their rage).


...And the wilderness rules?
There is rules for searching through territories for things like adventure sites and monster lairs which make traveling more interesting than just saying "Okay you travel for x days and reach the destination". There is stuff for making trophies from your defeated enemies. There is rules to make it easier to generate weather before the game for several days, so there is more incentive to use the various weather rules.

I do rather dislike the sections on the First World and the "Green Faith" since I don't play Golarion. Plus, the whole green Faith section could be replaced by the sentence "Imagine the most generic druid religion ever, that's called the Green Faith in the Golarion setting."

[ATHATH]

Not only that, it also contains nerfbombed versions of previously good Feats (a huge chunk of this book is just reprints, many of which AREN'T changed mind you, part of the reason it's such a waste of money to even drop a tenner on it). They neutered the Wolf Savage Feat (capstone to the Wolf Style line) to the point it kills the whole Feat chain, essentially. Instead of giving you the ability to Bestow Curse on targets you attack that are prone, it now can only make them Fatigued or deal 1d4 Con or Cha damage (that cannot take them to 0 stat).

The rest of the Feats were pretty meh in themselves, but really good set-ups to enable Wolf Savage to go off. All in all a good Feat line. Now it's not worth taking since ALL of the Feats are meh and their synergy doesn't mean much when they synergize together to form nothing special.
So not only did they !@#$ over the character concepts put forth in this book, they also went and retroactively !@#$ed over perfectly good character concepts that were already around for (seemingly) no good reason?!

What.

The.

!@#$.

Petition to demote/cut the paycheck of whoever (singular or plural) was responsible for this book being the horrid pile of !@#$ that it turned out to be, anyone?

[CockroachTeaParty]

How did you like the psychic disciplines?

They seemed pretty decent at first glance. GUNNA HAVE TUH UPDATE MUH GUIDES.

[NightbringerGGZ]

After reading over the Shifter class I can't help but think the designers phoned that one in. The class design just feels lazy, borrowing features from the Monk, Druid, Hunter and Warpriest. The class will be fine for new players or in low optimization games, but it doesn't really compare favorably to other options. I'm not a fan of the archetypes either, but usually the first archetypes for a class aren't particular strong.

As somebody who buys most of the Pathfinder books, I felt more than a bit ripped off at the number of reprints and that's with only buying the PDF of UW. The stealth nerfs (rather than proper eratta) are also something I don't appreciate but at least those are easy to ignore.

The Skirmisher (Fighter) archetype is fairly strong, especially since Fighters have an AWT option for bonus damage when using Dex to attack and Str for damage. The bonus AC scaling and enhancement bonus to mobility could be fun, and the Fighter can at least pay the feat taxes for the mobility focused feat lines. Even if those feat taxes are getting to be really silly.

There are a lot of feats with very minor bonuses and Paizo is continuing their trend of adding feats that let you do fairly mundane stuff with skills. Like there's a feat that gives +2 to Fort and Refl saves, -2 to Will saves but only at night while part of the moon is showing. Another feat chain that provides bonuses when you milk poison from venomous creatures. Stuff like that really has me worried about the future of this game.

I did find a few decent feats. As others have said, the Totemic feat line is pretty decent for martial characters. Some of the feats to pick up with Wild Shape can help out a melee-focused druid (though the Wis 19 requirement for most of them shafts the Shifter). I like the Exotic Heritage feat line, which lets you pick up wild bloodline abilities. The feats for functioning normally while under water are nice if your campaign is focused on that environment, but probably negates the point of a GM trying to use that setting.

All the new polymorph spells are quite nice. I have a friend who wants to play a polymorph focused caster and those came out at just the right time. Overall pretty happy with the new spells added, though there are some I'll probably never use (as normal).

The exploration rules are serviceable but pretty basic. They only spent 4 pages on it, so you're still going to have to make up a bunch of stuff on your own. I guess it's a decent foundation for newer GMs but I doubt I'll glance at it in the future. The foraging and salvaging rules I can actually see getting used in a bunch of scenarios though. Those are a nice addition. Really this is just a collection of a bunch of different subsystems and most experienced GMs would just use skill checks for most of the scenarios presented.

Overall, I'd say pass on this book if you're a player and buy the PDF if you're a GM.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
After reading over the Shifter class I can't help but think the designers phoned that one in. The class design just feels lazy, borrowing features from the Monk, Druid, Hunter and Warpriest.

This seems to be the overwhelming consensus. I can’t recall the last time people were so disappointed by a base class.


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
Stuff like that really has me worried about the future of this game.

The last several hardcovers have been lackluster, to say the least, relying heavily on reprinted material and some rather timid new items. It is definitely worrisome.

My only guess is that the creative emphasis is shifting to Starfinder, leaving just a few dribbles of old dishwater for the Pathfinder line. That’s certainly what this book feels like.


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
The exploration rules are serviceable but pretty basic. They only spent 4 pages on it, so you're still going to have to make up a bunch of stuff on your own.

See, this is the sort of thing that really irks me. The book is supposed to be dedicated to all things wilderness, but if they only spend 4 out of 288 pages on exploring the wilderness, they’re clearly not making any real effort.

“Lazy” is far too generous a term.


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
Overall, I'd say pass on this book if you're a player and buy the PDF if you're a GM.

As a GM running a wilderness campaign, I’m passing on this entirely. At most I’ll page through it in the store.

[Cybershark]

My main gripe is not that the Shifter is bad. It's that now 95% of shapeshifting content Paizo releases now is going to be offloaded onto the chassis of the Shifter.

[NightbringerGGZ]

As a GM running a wilderness campaign, I’m passing on this entirely. At most I’ll page through it in the store.

You might find the rules on weather conditions, trophies and treasures and foraging and salvaging useful. The trophies section has a helpful table for a guideline on the value of harvesting parts off a creature based on its CR. The rules for harvesting poisons are an example of making things overly complicated though, I'd suggest just using a mix of Survival and Craft: Alchemy checks for that. There's some ok equipment for a wilderness campaign at the end of the book your players might want. Finally, the herbalism section is actually somewhat interesting but I predict that means it'll be the subsystem that is completely ignored in future books =P.

[ATHATH]

Wait a minute... What if Paizo released the stealth nerfs in the book instead of in errata in order to force us to pay for their !@#$ty book in order to use the updated/official versions of the nerfed feats/character options?

If so, my opinion of Paizo just fell sharply.

[Milo v3]

For people annoyed by the reprints in Ultimate Wilderness, Book of the Damned, and Adventurer's Guide, worry not. The next RPG-line hardcover is apparently a reprint of the Great Beyond book. :smallannoyed:

[EisenKreutzer]

To someone who only buys the hardcovers and isn’t interested in the Golarion specific stuff, the reprinted material is actually a very good thing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Milo v3
The next RPG-line hardcover is apparently a reprint of the Great Beyond book.

Well, that’s a relief. :smallyuk:

I’d never heard of that title, but it looks like the original is only 64 pages. I guess the other 224 pages will be padding and scraped-together reprints from every odd corner of the Paizoverse, with all the vigor and excitement of stale bread soaked in dodgy milk.

Yeah, my opinion of Paizo is falling fast.

[Milo v3]

Yeah, my opinion of Paizo is falling fast.
For me it's been falling ever since they decided to make RPG-line now be all Golarion content.

[Draacul]

My opinion broke through the floor after comparing DSP's Ultimate Psionics and Occult Adventures.
But still,adventure paths are good.

I guess the other 224 pages will be padding and scraped-together reprints from every odd corner of the Paizoverse, with all the vigor and excitement of stale bread soaked in dodgy milk.

Remember when Wizards hardcovers were reprints of Paizo Dragon and Dungeon content?
He who kills the dragon becomes the dragon.

[Milo v3]

My opinion broke through the floor after comparing DSP's Ultimate Psionics and Occult Adventures.
Apples and Oranges.... Occult is very different to psionics in themes; psionics is sci-fi or manifesting your own internal power, while psychic is about the occult and tapping into external power sources that are far greater than you. Even DSP's occult adventure supplement has a whole section on how there both very different concepts without very much overlap in concept.

[Draacul]

Apples and Oranges.... Occult is very different to psionics in themes; psionics is sci-fi or manifesting your own internal power, while psychic is about the occult and tapping into external power sources that are far greater than you. Even DSP's occult adventure supplement has a whole section on how there both very different concepts without very much overlap in concept.
Except,you know,James Jacobs himself talked a lot about that there won't be proper psionics 3.5like book,instead we'll get occult.
As far as difference...do look at the names of psychic spells.It's psionic powers!And Psychic is somewhat refluffed Telepath.
I guess they tried to do something new.I...didn't like it.At all.And it's all been downhill from there...
For me,at least.Just my opinion.

[Thealtruistorc]

Okay so here are the things I found in Ultimate Wilderness that I liked. My friend got a copy for our group and I skimmed it.

Warpriest Archetype is quite cool, although I wish it had druid options.

Some of the Hunter archetypes are likeable, if just because of their uniqueness.

Blighted Myrmidon Antipaladin is AWESOME, and definitely something I will be using in a future game.

Plant Companions for Summoner and Hunter: ABOUT TIME!

New Witch stuff is solid. I can envision using the Flood Walker and Season Witch archetypes.

The Medium Archetype is creative and actually quite useful for adventuring.

Skald Archetypes are amazing, especially the Hunt Caller.

Brawler gets some cool new archetypes which I want to make characters around

Blighted Defiler Kineticist is hard to use, but thematically is very cool. Good for a villain

Green Knight Cavalier is a great callback to a favorite 4e class of mine, the Warden

A lot of the other stuff in the book? Tis pretty bad.

[Rynjin]

Wait a minute... What if Paizo released the stealth nerfs in the book instead of in errata in order to force us to pay for their !@#$ty book in order to use the updated/official versions of the nerfed feats/character options?

If so, my opinion of Paizo just fell sharply.

BAHAHA you're just now figuring this trend out? They always nerf old content to make new stuff look better. Two prominent examples being Animal Companions in general getting nerfed to make Cavaliers look better and the Scarred Witch Doctor eating it to secure Kineticist's space as the only Con based "caster".

[masterjoda99]

BAHAHA you're just now figuring this trend out? They always nerf old content to make new stuff look better. Two prominent examples being Animal Companions in general getting nerfed to make Cavaliers look better and the Scarred Witch Doctor eating it to secure Kineticist's space as the only Con based "caster".

I remember about the Scarred Witch Doctor (which yeah, bugged me to no end), but what happened to nerf animal companions?

[Rynjin]

I remember about the Scarred Witch Doctor (which yeah, bugged me to no end), but what happened to nerf animal companions?

Not a huge change, but they "fixed" the Combat Trained quality via Handle Animal making animal companions/mounts be proficient in light armor so the Cavalier's Mount class feature seems more special.

There are also the repeated contradictory changes to how mounted combat in general works which are exhausting to keep track of.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Here's a gripe I have that applies to not just Ultimate Wilderness, but how they've handled transmutation spells as a whole:

So there's the new Fey Shape spells. Great! And it looks like they give you access to quite a variety of fey special abilities. But ALL I ASK, and this applies to the whole polymorph line (beast shape, form of the dragon, etc. etc.), is a table like you'd get for Summon Monster with some examples of monsters that have some of the special abilities listed.

As it stands, you have to pour through each and every fey and cross-reference the spell description to see if it has the thing you want. It drives me up a wall. Like, I know redcaps have the 'boot stomp' special ability, so you can turn into a redcap with feyshape (or whatever it's called) I. But I probably have the least knowledge about fey monsters overall. It's a lot of hassle if I want to use those spells, is all. DERP.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Those spell would be capped, though, with what things you could turn into.

[Wartex1]

Then they should add a text of "sample options" and explicitly allow other creatures that fit the criteria.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty
As it stands, you have to [pore] through each and every fey and cross-reference the spell description to see if it has the thing you want.

In other words, they want you to do all the legwork they couldn’t be bothered to do.

At least, that’s the ungenerous reaction. On the other hand, it was probably easier to do this with the original Summon Monster and Summon Nature’s Ally spells, since they were drawing from core monsters and animals. At this point, with monsters from six Bestiaries and who knows how many obscure creatures from other sources, that may have been A Big Gorram Project that they ended up dropping for deadline reasons.

Or—and I have no idea if Paizo thinks along these lines—maybe they’re assuming that some motivated person will do all the cross-referencing for them, and post it online?

[Rynjin]

My problem with the shapeshifting line of spells isn't just that, but that there is absolutely zero future proofing with them. They have a strict list of abilities that can be acquired, and any new ones released for that creature type no longer apply.

[Prime32]

Or—and I have no idea if Paizo thinks along these lines—maybe they’re assuming that some motivated person will do all the cross-referencing for them, and post it online?I think it's more likely that they expect players not to look up the abilities at all, just pick something that seems cool.

If they wanted it to be easy, they'd have just said "pick two abilities from this list, you turn into an animal with those abilities". That way it's immune to power creep, and cuts off arguments like "I want to turn into a pangolin" "Do you even know what a pangolin is?" before they start.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rynjin
My problem with the shapeshifting line of spells isn't just that, but that there is absolutely zero future proofing with them. They have a strict list of abilities that can be acquired, and any new ones released for that creature type no longer apply.

Presumably they can just add a line that the new ability is now included in the list of allowed abilities.

I don’t see how that’s a problem...assuming they remember to do this.


Originally Posted by Prime32
That way it's immune to power creep, and cuts off arguments like "I want to turn into a pangolin" "Do you even know what a pangolin is?" before they start.

I get your point, but if I wanted to suggest a creature that illustrates power creep, I probably wouldn't use a pangolin.

It's not that I don't love pangolins, but rolling into a ball doesn't seem too overpowered. :smalltongue:

[Florian]

I´m a bit torn on UW, but tend towards the "disappointed" side of the spectrum.

The "Discovery and Exploration" section, as well as most of the other sub-systems in the chapter, is actually pretty good and meshes very well / is an upgrade to the regular hex crawling rules from UC.
As with other sub-systems, feats can really shine when they feature heavily (think Kingmaker).

More familiar / companion feats and archetypes are ever wrong.

I wouldn't say that I´m totally underwhelmed by the Shifter, as I´m not overly focussed on wild shape. Something like a boar-kin Shifter VMC Sorcerer (Orc) actually sounds like fun, but I´ve next to no motivation to try a build.

[thelastorphan]

My question has to do with stacking. Defensive Instinct is a new ability and works differently then the Monk's AC Bonus so do they stack? Not that its overpowered. Its just a thought I had. Untyped bonuses from different sources should stack right?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

When you get an ability score modifier as an untyped bonus, it does not stack with itself.

[Cyrocloud]

I didn't see it mentioned but they made it so galathains can now lose their Con penalty so they are probably the best kineticist race, though I thought it was lame they didn't reprint their kineticist favored class bonus. The vine Leahy alchemist archetype also allows them to add two druid spells to their spellevel list every level with I imagine has a bunch of uses.

[thelastorphan]

When you get an ability score modifier as an untyped bonus, it does not stack with itself.

Is thete a rules quote for this? Just curious.

[upho]

They neutered the Wolf Savage Feat (capstone to the Wolf Style line) to the point it kills the whole Feat chain, essentially. Instead of giving you the ability to Bestow Curse on targets you attack that are prone, it now can only make them Fatigued or deal 1d4 Con or Cha damage (that cannot take them to 0 stat).

The rest of the Feats were pretty meh in themselves, but really good set-ups to enable Wolf Savage to go off. All in all a good Feat line. Now it's not worth taking since ALL of the Feats are meh and their synergy doesn't mean much when they synergize together to form nothing special.Huh? I must've really missed something, because in my world Wolf Savage hasn't been worth the feat slot for any build with Wolf Style I've ever seen (because: eats swift + allows Fort save + has weak martial DC formula which cannot be substantially improved = only useful against lower CR mooks easily disposed of anyways). What am I missing here?

Wolf Trip has so far always been the primary reason for investing in the style, granting a truly unique and potentially powerful mechanic which has great synergy with tons of other martial options. Or more specifically, the following line:

"While using Wolf Style, whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you may choose an available square adjacent to you for the tripped creature to land prone in."

This is potentially huge for control/defender martials, to the point that it defines a large part of the build. Notably, it stands out as an actually truly flexible and useful combat feat not focused on increasing damage or passive defenses, but enabling completely new effective fighting styles. Which makes it a rare gem IMO. And it's absolutely hilarious on a shield champion brawler with a maelstrom shield...

Please tell me this part wasn't nerfed as well? :smalleek:


On topic, I'm sad to hear how Paizo's standards for the larger releases seem to be deteriorating even further, along with their seemingly increasing fear of actually useful player options. The reviews I've read so far just makes me wish the errata this book introduces are simply ignored by OGC sites, so people can pick the handful of interesting stuff from it, without having to pay for the mountain of crap it brings along or having perfectly fine options being arbitrarily made useless. And I hope a future Companion release beats at least some of the more flavorful new crap into shape, seeing how that line has lately provided content on a completely different level of design quality.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Is thete a rules quote for this? Just curious.

Yep, right here. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk)

[Vyanie]

Archetype wise? The Venomfist Brawler comes to mind as being pretty nice, especially since it stacks with the Mutagen archetype for some fun shenanigans. There was also the Forester Hunter, which while not too amazing, was decent enough to feel like it put another nail in Shifter's coffin by having ALL-DAY Animal Aspect along with a bunch of bonus features for losing its animal companion.

Because of how much it gives up AND reduces its damage size isn't the venomfist a net nerf to brawler? especially when it targets the (generally) highest save most monsters get and it doesn't affect a huge swath of enemies to begin with. dropping your damage dice a size to only work on the first hit per round, not even the first hit per target but only the first hit per round looks like a drop in damage, especially once they start getting more attacks per round.

[Drifter S.]

Because of how much it gives up AND reduces its damage size isn't the venomfist a net nerf to brawler? especially when it targets the (generally) highest save most monsters get and it doesn't affect a huge swath of enemies to begin with. dropping your damage dice a size to only work on the first hit per round, not even the first hit per target but only the first hit per round looks like a drop in damage, especially once they start getting more attacks per round.

You're not really giving up a whole lot. Reducing your unarmed strike damage by one size is the most painful, glaring problem. Giving up Knockout (a really mediocre per-day ability, at least IMO) and Close Weapon Mastery (which is meaningless if you plan to stick solely to unarmed) isn't too bad a deal. The poison you get is at the very least cool enough that it'd be at least something worth considering, and since you'll hit so much, you'd be proccing multiple saves a round. It's not AMAZING, but for a Brawler archetype it's at the very least interesting and passable enough to be noteworthy. Mutagenic Mauler can stack, so you're not really be hurting for damage and can bump up the save DC.

[Vyanie]

You're not really giving up a whole lot. Reducing your unarmed strike damage by one size is the most painful, glaring problem. Giving up Knockout (a really mediocre per-day ability, at least IMO) and Close Weapon Mastery (which is meaningless if you plan to stick solely to unarmed) isn't too bad a deal. The poison you get is at the very least cool enough that it'd be at least something worth considering, and since you'll hit so much, you'd be proccing multiple saves a round. It's not AMAZING, but for a Brawler archetype it's at the very least interesting and passable enough to be noteworthy. Mutagenic Mauler would stack, last I checked, so you're not really be hurting for damage. cant proc multiple saves per round, it only works on the first hit per round.


A venomfist’s unarmed strikes
deal damage as a creature one size category smaller (1d4
at first level for Medium venomfists). If she hits with her
first unarmed strike in a round, the target must succeed at a
Fortitude saving throw


While I agree the other stuff you give up is kind of crappy it is still 2 other things in addition to the damage dice that you have to give up. Since you are giving up close weapon mastery you are now pigeonholed into going with an extremely expensive fighting style (unarmed) in order to be effective, no more grabbing a magic weapon. It just gives up way way to much for what little it offers in return. This is a trend I see throughout the entire book, quite a few of the archtypes are little more than nerfs (except for t1 classes then it does not matter) most of the feats are either nerfed reprints or wasted bloat feats. To me the entire book seemed like an experiment of how crappy paz could make something and still have people buy it.

[Drifter S.]

cant proc multiple saves per round, it only works on the first hit per round.

To me the entire book seemed like an experiment of how crappy paz could make something and still have people buy it.

Well, my eyes had had glazed right over that, likely not willing to believe that a writer could put such a moronic limit on an already mediocre ability, despite knowing full well what they've done with 99% of the content for things other than full casters. I guess it gets to sit in the same pile as Eldritch Poisoner as "cool idea, but in practice it's absolute garbage."

[ATHATH]

Can we compile a list of all of the things that were nerfed?

Thought here: What if we, as a community, tried to fix everything in Ultimate Wilderness? As in, go through every feat, archetype, class, etc. and make homebrew tweaks to each one of them to make them better/halfway decent? Then we could present the final product to Paizo and ask them to make the changes official (possibly in an official updated version of Ultimate Wilderness), preferably with a refund to everyone who bought the original Ultimate Wilderness (although we all know that last part won't happen, it's at least something to hope for).

[Coretron03]

Can we compile a list of all of the things that were nerfed?

Thought here: What if we, as a community, tried to fix everything in Ultimate Wilderness? As in, go through every feat, archetype, class, etc. and make homebrew tweaks to each one of them to make them better/halfway decent? Then we could present the final product to Paizo and ask them to make the changes official (possibly in an official updated version of Ultimate Wilderness), preferably with a refund to everyone who bought the original Ultimate Wilderness (although we all know that last part won't happen, it's at least something to hope for).

I severely doubt paizio would even consider redoing a whole book based on some forumn's views (Even if there correct). That would first require them to admit that their book was bad.

[Vyanie]

I severely doubt paizio would even consider redoing a whole book based on some forumn's views (Even if there correct). That would first require them to admit that their book was bad.

lulz, ever get into an argument with one of them? its like trying to argue with a 3 year old.... nuhh uhhh.... nuhhh uhhh.... *them covering their ears* LALALALALALALALA

[ATHATH]

lulz, ever get into an argument with one of them? its like trying to argue with a 3 year old.... nuhh uhhh.... nuhhh uhhh.... *them covering their ears* LALALALALALALALA
Have any quotes? I'm interested in reading more about this.

[Castilonium]

Huh? I must've really missed something, because in my world Wolf Savage hasn't been worth the feat slot for any build with Wolf Style I've ever seen (because: eats swift + allows Fort save + has weak martial DC formula which cannot be substantially improved = only useful against lower CR mooks easily disposed of anyways). What am I missing here?

Wolf Trip has so far always been the primary reason for investing in the style, granting a truly unique and potentially powerful mechanic which has great synergy with tons of other martial options. Or more specifically, the following line:

"While using Wolf Style, whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you may choose an available square adjacent to you for the tripped creature to land prone in."

This is potentially huge for control/defender martials, to the point that it defines a large part of the build. Notably, it stands out as an actually truly flexible and useful combat feat not focused on increasing damage or passive defenses, but enabling completely new effective fighting styles. Which makes it a rare gem IMO. And it's absolutely hilarious on a shield champion brawler with a maelstrom shield...

Please tell me this part wasn't nerfed as well? :smalleek:

Wolf Trip's new text:
Benefit: While using Wolf Style, you gain a +2 bonus when you attempt a trip combat maneuver as part of an attack of opportunity. Whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you can choose an available space that is both adjacent to you and the creature’s original space for the tripped creature to land prone in.

Also, they removed the Style tag from Wolf Trip, so you can't take a level of MoMS monk to grab it anymore.

[Rynjin]

Huh? I must've really missed something, because in my world Wolf Savage hasn't been worth the feat slot for any build with Wolf Style I've ever seen (because: eats swift + allows Fort save + has weak martial DC formula which cannot be substantially improved = only useful against lower CR mooks easily disposed of anyways). What am I missing here?

Bestow Curse being one of the more powerful open-ended effects you can inflict, mostly. Yeah it's relatively low DC (eating your Swift is a non-issue since non-PoW martials have precious few uses for that action) but it's a heavy save or suck and isn't limited by per day uses.

As posted above it's been nerfed in other ways (I actually missed that) though taking Wolf Style/Trip was not really worth it for that effect regardless...Ki Throw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-throw-combat/) already has that effect but better (don't need to activate your Style as a Swift/doesn't conflict with other styles, requires one less Feat prereq and no skill prereq, available at an earlier level).

[Kurald Galain]

Also, they removed the Style tag from Wolf Trip, so you can't take a level of MoMS monk to grab it anymore.
To be fair, that one was a mistake. For none of the other style feats are the subsequent feats in the line supposed to have the 'style' tag.

Other than that, I'm not a fan of the stealth nerfs. But I'm more worried about, in all splatbooks I've seen over the last couple months, pretty much all the feats and items are either wildly overpriced, have annoying restrictions that make them pretty pointless, or both.

[Vyanie]

To be fair, that one was a mistake. For none of the other style feats are the subsequent feats in the line supposed to have the 'style' tag.

Other than that, I'm not a fan of the stealth nerfs. But I'm more worried about, in all splatbooks I've seen over the last couple months, pretty much all the feats and items are either wildly overpriced, have annoying restrictions that make them pretty pointless, or both.

Awwww come on.... you dont want to burn a feat to sound like a bird from a certain favored terrain? how about burn a feat to be a woodworker.....

[Kurald Galain]

Awwww come on.... you dont want to burn a feat to sound like a bird from a certain favored terrain? how about burn a feat to be a woodworker.....

Well you know how unbalanced woodworkers are... let's give that some good prerequisites like Skill Focus (Craft: Basketweaving), lawful alignment, and three levels in the Commoner class. Plus it should only work on sundays!

[Vyanie]

Can we compile a list of all of the things that were nerfed?

Thought here: What if we, as a community, tried to fix everything in Ultimate Wilderness? As in, go through every feat, archetype, class, etc. and make homebrew tweaks to each one of them to make them better/halfway decent? Then we could present the final product to Paizo and ask them to make the changes official (possibly in an official updated version of Ultimate Wilderness), preferably with a refund to everyone who bought the original Ultimate Wilderness (although we all know that last part won't happen, it's at least something to hope for).

some things that were blatantly nerfed were the wolf style and spell snowball and the spell Vine strike both got horrible nerfs.

the new snowball removes the fort save, so its just a crappy 1d6 per level damage ball of snow no more staggard for 1 round.

the vine strike made it so a reflex save makes the target immune to entangle for 1 round, before it had to roll for every hit you made, so a massive nerf to it as the people most using it were hunters on the pets so they dont have a very high save DC.

anyone else able to spot blatant nerfs? i know ive seen more than that but seeing all the bad in the book is making my eyes glaze over.

[Kurald Galain]

some things that were blatantly nerfed were the wolf style and spell snowball and the spell Vine strike both got horrible nerfs.

It strikes me that the main point of both Snowball and Vine Strike was always the damage, not the rider effect. Based on that, note that Snowball used to bypass spell resistance and now it doesn't;
this means there's no reason to use it if you can cast Magic Missile, which has superior range, accuracy, damage type, and feat options. Vine Strike used to affect every natural attack, now it affects only one of them; this also means it's not worth using any more compared to other spells.

So yeah, I'd call that overnerfing.

[Coretron03]

Damn, I actually liked Snowball. It was a sweet blasting spell that had a good rider. It was kinda like 3.5 orb spells in that regard. Now its so much worse. Paizio must have realised they gave something nice to blasters :smallsigh:.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Really, moving Snowball to Evocation makes sense. But it should have gotten a line in its rules text stating it still bypasses SR since that was its main niche over Magic Missile.

[Vyanie]

Really, moving Snowball to Evocation makes sense. But it should have gotten a line in its rules text stating it still bypasses SR since that was its main niche over Magic Missile.

Moving snowball from conjuration (conjuring up a ball of snow to throw at someone) to evocation ( because it damage?) makes absolutely no sense the further nerfs of SR and no stagger make it crap.

[Milo v3]

Moving snowball from conjuration (conjuring up a ball of snow to throw at someone) to evocation ( because it damage?) makes absolutely no sense the further nerfs of SR and no stagger make it crap.

It's dumb for it to be conjuration, since snowballs wouldn't deal cold damage. For the snowball to make any sense it would have to be made of cold energy rather than actually be real snow, so evocation is the school of magic that makes sense for it.

[upho]

Wolf Trip's new text:
Benefit: While using Wolf Style, you gain a +2 bonus when you attempt a trip combat maneuver as part of an attack of opportunity. Whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you can choose an available space that is both adjacent to you and the creature’s original space for the tripped creature to land prone in.:smallsigh: I should've known, considering it was an option enabling an actually rather effective non-damage combat focus for martials. But thanks for letting me know.


Also, they removed the Style tag from Wolf Trip, so you can't take a level of MoMS monk to grab it anymore.As Kurald notes, this was just a mistake and actually something I expected to happen as soon as Paizo had a reason to reprint the Wolf Style chain. But yeah, in a more strictly RAW game it was a quite convenient mistake for certain martial control builds.


Bestow Curse being one of the more powerful open-ended effects you can inflict, mostly. Yeah it's relatively low DC (eating your Swift is a non-issue since non-PoW martials have precious few uses for that action) but it's a heavy save or suck and isn't limited by per day uses.Well, I agree the effect is nice, and definitely one of the strongest not excessively limited by uses/day or largely inaccessible to martials. That never was the problem with the feat IMO. Instead, it's that the low DC issue, set-up mechanics, level prerequisite and the many other related trip options makes it largely redundant in practice IME. Meaning for the WS builds I've seen, by the time they can access Wolf Savage, it tends to be far from the strongest available feat option, as it's highly likely any enemy they manage to trip is going to get FUBAR before they fail the easy Fort save and the curse penalties have any impact on the outcome of the combat. So at least for those builds, in basically all cases in a real game, it would've just been sub-par in comparison to all the nasty stuff other options allowed them pile on a tripped enemy, notably without requiring a swift or a failed Fort save (such as: prone, in very bad position, no movement speed, phase locked, panicked, and/or severely damaged/killed by multiple AoOs).


Ki Throw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-throw-combat/) already has that effect but better (don't need to activate your Style as a Swift/doesn't conflict with other styles, requires one less Feat prereq and no skill prereq, available at an earlier level).Yeah, I agree WT is (needlessly) limited. So most of the WS builds I've seen dipped at least one level of MoMS monk and got Combat Style Master in order to get around the style conflict and activation issues. None of them had more than two levels of monk though, and IIRC none would've been possible with many more monk levels.

But unfortunately, unless you're a monk with a hefty ki pool, the size limitation often makes Ki Throw significantly less useful in practice IME. I mean, even if you've invested in options to circumvent at least some of the many trip-negating stuff, if the key "move tripped enemy"-mechanic remains hard-capped at Large, a major part of your whole trip combo will still be useless in many of the mid/high level fights which really matter.

That said, it's been quite a while since I last checked available options to gain and increase a ki pool, so maybe this is pretty much a non-issue by now?

[Vyanie]

It's dumb for it to be conjuration, since snowballs wouldn't deal cold damage. For the snowball to make any sense it would have to be made of cold energy rather than actually be real snow, so evocation is the school of magic that makes sense for it.

Maybe you created the snowball from Cocytus ... since you are creating literal snow then it is a creation spell hence conjuration (creation), its not a detonation of raw magic as evocation would be.

[upho]

Maybe you created the snowball from Cocytus ... since you are creating literal snow then it is a creation spell hence conjuration (creation), its not a detonation of raw magic as evocation would be.But on the other hand, if it's a literal ball of snow you're hurling, then it should deal bludgeoning damage, not cold. Likewise, the staggering effect would be odd...

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if this nerf is partially the result of reactions to the eldritch archer magus, despite that archetype being banned in PFS. Not that this makes the eldritch archer (or the magus in general) that much weaker, but it probably does significantly affect more of them than it does builds of any other class/archetype.

[Vyanie]

I am thinking winter witch builds honestly

[ATHATH]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/7efe35/why_oozemorph_shifter_shouldnt_be_overlooked/

So the Shifter is useful for something! You just have to fall(,) first.

If intentionally falling too cheesy for you, being a Kitsune might also work to remove the Oozemorph's drawback.

[Cyrocloud]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/7efe35/why_oozemorph_shifter_shouldnt_be_overlooked/

So the Shifter is useful for something! You just have to fall(,) first.

If intentionally falling too cheesy for you, being a Kitsune might also work to remove the Oozemorph's drawback.

The argumentas are out that teaching someone druidic would allow most ooze morph benefits for very little draw back.

[QuadraticGish]

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if this nerf is partially the result of reactions to the eldritch archer magus, despite that archetype being banned in PFS.

Excuse me, but why is that archetype banned?

[Kurald Galain]

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if this nerf is partially the result of reactions to the eldritch archer magus
Why, though? The EA doesn't particularly benefit from, or even need, the Snowball spell.


Excuse me, but why is that archetype banned?
Because it's extremely powerful. Archery is arguably the most damaging combat style (primarily because it's extremely easy for an archer to gets a full attack), and the Eldritch Archer can do a full volley of arrows and cast a buff spell or Fireball in the same round.

That's the catch. The designers probably intended the EA to attach damaging spells to his arrows, but it turns out that is a pretty bad strategy. They overlooked that an EA can also e.g. Haste the entire party AND launch four arrows in the same round, and do it from a safe distance. Again, I'm not sure how this has anything to do with nerfing Snowball.

[upho]

Why, though? The EA doesn't particularly benefit from, or even need, the Snowball spell.I mostly agree. However, in lower op games where ranged spellstrike seems to actually see a lot of use on bow builds, the early level no-save, no-SR additional damage and attack granted by the old snowball does seem to stand out in the eyes of many people. Although I may very well be wrong here, since this is only as far as I've been able to gather from other forum threads/posts discussing the EA.

And in higher op games with a gun-toting EA build, there was AFAIK simply no better alternative spam-able single-target damage boosts than snowball, at least not before 9th and Reach Spellstrike.


Because it's extremely powerful. Archery is arguably the most damaging combat style (primarily because it's extremely easy for an archer to gets a full attack), and the Eldritch Archer can do a full volley of arrows and cast a buff spell or Fireball in the same round.

That's the catch. The designers probably intended the EA to attach damaging spells to his arrows, but it turns out that is a pretty bad strategy. They overlooked that an EA can also e.g. Haste the entire party AND launch four arrows in the same round, and do it from a safe distance. Again, I'm not sure how this has anything to do with nerfing Snowball.This. Especially if in a Paizo AP run as written, archery can easily give you more than sufficient damage numbers without Ranged Spellstrike, meaning you can get plenty of action efficient additional versatility from Spell Combat on top of all advantages of not having to be in melee. And since ranged combat tends to come with hefty accuracy penalties, adding an additional -2 from Ranged Spellstrike is typically not the best idea for a 3/4 bab archer.

That said, I can sorta understand why people playing in games at the seemingly very low op PFS level cringe at the early/mid game damage potential of snowball Ranged Spellstrikes. In such games, it appears to me that 1) damage is rarely analyzed as expected DPR (taking average defenses of CR-equivalent enemies into account) while options with a high damage potential provokes strong reactions, and 2) damage output capacity is often seen as the far most important measure of a PC's combat effectiveness, so most PC builds considered OP/broken are so because of their damage potential. Again, note that I may be off here, since this is largely based on second-hand info.

[EisenKreutzer]

I have to admit, it is frustrating that Paizo keep making balance changes centred around PFS, a format many of us have no interest in taking part in.

It’s sort of like when developers of a computer game make balance changes aimed at multiplayer that severely impacts the single player experience.

[elanfanboy]

It strikes me as weird that everyone is complaining about this class, RPGs aren't about making the best battlebot, they're about making a character that is cool, and a shapeshifting chimera man seems pretty damn cool to me.

If you don't want to play as the class, then don't. But don't try to make it seem like paizo sucks for giving you a '****ty' class and nerfing the things that made characters too OP.

Final thought, maybe wrong, but maybe It's not the fact that the shifter class is too weak, but that other classes are too strong?
:smallconfused:

[exelsisxax]

It strikes me as weird that everyone is complaining about this class, RPGs aren't about making the best battlebot, they're about making a character that is cool, and a shapeshifting chimera man seems pretty damn cool to me.

If you don't want to play as the class, then don't. But don't try to make it seem like paizo sucks for giving you a '****ty' class and nerfing the things that made characters too OP.

Final thought, maybe wrong, but maybe It's not the fact that the shifter class is too weak, but that other classes are too strong?
:smallconfused:

Yep, you're wrong. The shifter is too weak. Hard to be cool when you can barely accomplish any contribution to a party of randomly selected classes unless you get grouped to a kineticist.

[EldritchWeaver]

It strikes me as weird that everyone is complaining about this class, RPGs aren't about making the best battlebot, they're about making a character that is cool, and a shapeshifting chimera man seems pretty damn cool to me.

There is an expectation of being able to contribute to the party. The shifter fails hard.


If you don't want to play as the class, then don't. But don't try to make it seem like paizo sucks for giving you a '****ty' class and nerfing the things that made characters too OP.

Paizo didn't do a public playtest. They rehashed mechanics from several other classes instead of actually providing the shifter an original mechanic. The archetypes as written simply do not work at all. So Paizo is at fault here for providing a class which might be cool flavorwise, but can otherwise directly placed in the recycle bin.


Final thought, maybe wrong, but maybe It's not the fact that the shifter class is too weak, but that other classes are too strong?
:smallconfused:

So the baseline expectation, which over 40 or 60 previous classes contributed over the span of 10 years, is wrong? Your suggestion means that effectively most classes would need to be rewritten to conform to the shifter's (in)capability. And the monsters as well.

Does this sound likely?

[Milo v3]

It strikes me as weird that everyone is complaining about this class, RPGs aren't about making the best battlebot, they're about making a character that is cool, and a shapeshifting chimera man seems pretty damn cool to me.
Except that it didn't add the shapeshifting chimera man, we already had that as an option in Pathfinder with things like Feral Hunters. It's just that the shifter class is actively worse than all other ways of doing a shapeshifting character, so there is literally no reason to use it.

[Gnaeus]

I mean, that Feat already exists. It's called Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast).

You could also just be a:

Catfolk
Skinwalker (slap on some Warrior levels and you're already a better shapeshifting "class" than the Shifter!)
Tengu
Tiefling

And then be whatever class you like. I suggest Druid (Feral Hunter or Nature Fang to really piss in the Shifter's Cheerios. They're weaker, but still better than ol' Shifty), Feral Hunter Hunter, Metamorph Alchemist, or any of the million better 3PP Shifter classes. Including the Feral Heart Soulknife which isn't that great at shifting in the grand scheme, but still fills the Shifter's role of being a simple melee brute with animal flavor quite admirably and much better.

I feel like I could give shifter a Path of War progression with primal fury and thrashing dragon on top of all it normally gets and it would at least work in its niche better than ranger or hunter.

[Andor13]

I feel like I could give shifter a Path of War progression with primal fury and thrashing dragon on top of all it normally gets and it would at least work in its niche better than ranger or hunter.

There is also a Shape Shifting based Maneuver system in the Lords of the Wild playtest. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FcMpsY7ancpaWiBpFhI_jlARL8p2OXZhaFxAjzJCyW4/edit
Of course, you could just give that to any Initiator class and have a better shifter than the shifter....

Other way to be better than a Shifter at shifting:
Aberrant Aegis
Totemist (3.5 admittedly)
Feral Warrior path Psiwarrior
Egoist Psion

... Let's face it, the Shifter is really bad at his job.

I do like that as a fix however, The existing shifter abilities are hardly game breaking. If you want to be cautious you could give them an archtype that gives them the generic secondary initiator progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/abilities-for-other-classes/) and access to Broken Blade, Primal Fury, Thrashing Dragon and Chimera Soul disciplines. If you want to be generous make them a full initiator with some shifting based recovery mechanism and access to the same disciplines plus another of players choice.

Actually there really isn't anything wrong with the Shifter class that couldn't be fixed by reaching back to 3e for the Warshaper/Master of Many Forms PrCs. Warshaper in particular should just be folded into the Shifter class distributed across whatever levels look right. Master of Many Forms isn't needed, but it's a lousy class for Druids, but a very viable choice the the Shifter.

[Unluckyblackjak]

There have been some interesting changes to the shifter. For starters, shifters get A Thousand Faces and Timeless Body at level level 18, and a new ability at level 6:


At 6th level, a shifter gains the ability to make several ferocious attacks with the same natural weapon. Instead of attacking with all her natural weapons, the shifter can choose a single natural weapon and make a full attack with that natural weapon, gaining a second iterative attack at a –5 as if it was a manufactured weapon. When she does so, all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks and don’t benefit from shifter’s claws.

At 11th level, she gains a third iterative attack at a –10 and at 16th level, she gains a fourth iterative attack at –15.
It's basically a full attack you can do one of your natural weapons.

They also changed wild shape to be hours per day (Shifter level + Wis modifier), and they added magic to the list the claws can bypass at 3rd. And all selected minor/major aspects are at-will at 20th level.

All in all, I think it's a welcomed change that moves the shifter to the "usable" category. While acknowledging failures and releasing stuff to try to fix them is nice, all of this wouldn't have been necessary if you had a play-tester who would have played it and said "hey, this class kinda sucks. Maybe give them more."

On the other hand, I have a massive bias towards the shifter (I really want it to be good), so maybe it still sucks and I'm a big poo-brain.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Huh, that's nice. Same boat as you, in that I want to like the class. Glad to see it got some (avoidable through playtesting) polish.

[Rynjin]

It still sucks, and not even appreciably less. Any ability tat only comes online at 20th (or 15th+ for that matter) may as well not exist in the grand scheme, so Shifters still have an issue with their Aspects being far too weak to require any kind of per day limit and being locked into a MORE LIMITED VERSION OF WILDSHAPE THAN A NON-DEDICATED SHAAPESHIFTER CLASS, which is the big one.

Adding three abilities at levels nobody plays and a couple of extra Natural Attacks to the Aspects is a fix somebody clearly brainstormed in their spare time over the course of a day and threw up on the FAQ page to appease people who wanted "some change, any change" and doesn't really change much of anything.

The fact that this change is 5 months old and you're just now noticing it is a pretty clear indicator it hasn't changed the nature of the Shifter's suckage.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Treating the new Adaptive Shifter archetype as the default and flipping the Oozemorph’s default form to their original rather than the ooze fixes most of their problems tbh

[Vyanie]

So the fact if you classified this class by tier you would have before had to actually add 2 new tiers below commoner (1 for baseclass and one even lower for oozemorph) now it's all well and good that they are finally at the tier of an NPC class? One of my groups for the hell of it made the worst characters they could, someone choose samurai one person took commoner and 2 did shifters (base and oozemorph)....guess who were the worst of that? We did it with a 50 point buy....

[Dr_Dinosaur]

So the fact if you classified this class by tier you would have before had to actually add 2 new tiers below commoner (1 for baseclass and one even lower for oozemorph) now it's all well and good that they are finally at the tier of an NPC class? One of my groups for the hell of it made the worst characters they could, someone choose samurai one person took commoner and 2 did shifters (base and oozemorph)....guess who were the worst of that? We did it with a 50 point buy....

You're exaggerating, or just very bad at building characters. A competently-built Shifter with the Adaptive or Oozemorph (with my suggested change and the FAQ letting them use attunement items and move in ooze form) is obviously worse than a Druid doing the same thing (big news, a 9th level caster outshines mundanes!) but it's roughly on the level of the Fighter, I'd say, and with more potential utility.

[Unluckyblackjak]

So the fact if you classified this class by tier you would have before had to actually add 2 new tiers below commoner (1 for baseclass and one even lower for oozemorph) now it's all well and good that they are finally at the tier of an NPC class? One of my groups for the hell of it made the worst characters they could, someone choose samurai one person took commoner and 2 did shifters (base and oozemorph)....guess who were the worst of that? We did it with a 50 point buy....

So, you made the worst characters you could, made bad shifters, and therefor they suck? I mean, I can make a druid with 8 Wis, no points in handle animal, who only puts points into Profession (candle-maker), and who constantly wears heavy plate with a "How to read Druidic" guide on the back, but I'm not going to say "well, pack the Druid in guys, turns out it sucks."