Help me cram a tower shield into my Glove of Storing

[jmax]

I just had pointed out to me that antimagic field, as an emanation, is blocked by anything granting you total cover relative to its source. Now I want a tower shield because it can grant portable total cover. But tower shields are a pain to carry around, so I want to shove it in my Glove of Storing to store and retrieve as a free action.

A tower shield weighs 45 lbs. A darkwood tower shield weighs 22.5 lbs. A Glove of Storing caps out at 20 lbs. Sadness.

So - what can I do to shed 1/9 of a darkwood tower shield's weight such that I can cram it into a Glove of Storing? Or, alternatively, what can I do to make increase my Glove of Storing's capacity by at least 1/8?


EDIT: Since I didn't make this clear before, the idea is to be able to bum-rush an enemy in an antimagic field using the shield as a portable wall. And possibly sit on them through the shield. Which means, ideally, it should also be indestructible.


Also, strictly rules as written, it looks like a tower shield doesn't actually need to be sized for you to grant total cover - although it does still completely occupy your hand and force you to give up all of your attacks if you use it that way, and you'll take double-ACP if you aren't proficient. So if you want to carry a Fine tower shield on a strap attached to your belt to grab and drop as a free action, technically that works. But it's also super ridiculous, so I'm not going to try to pull that in game - hence the Glove of Storing.

[TheIronGolem]

Shrink Item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shrink-item). Lasts a day per CL, so it will rarely-to-never cut into your adventuring spell routine.

EDIT: Nope, never mind. Doesn't look like that spell reduces the item's weight.

[jmax]

Shrink Item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shrink-item). Lasts a day per CL, so it will rarely-to-never cut into your adventuring spell routine.

Restoring from shrink item ends the spell, so unfortunately you can't put it away as a free action. Permanencying it might work, although again I don't think you'd be able to do free action storage and retrieval.

[ATHATH]

You could play a small character (like a Strongheart Halfling) so that a small tower shield wouldn't be undersized for you.

[Lapak]

You could play a small character (like a Strongheart Halfling) so that a small tower shield wouldn't be undersized for you.I honestly can't think of a better answer than this.

The only alternative I can think of requires DM buy-in, and that's to see if you can get a Ring of Force Shield made that emulates a tower shield rather than a heavy shield.

[Zaq]

Pearlsteel (Stormwrack pg. 128) weighs 25% less than "normal equivalents." If you can fast-talk your GM into letting you make a pearlsteel-studded darkwood shield (rather than a pearlsteel steel shield), that might work, but it's kinda BS and we both know it.

I started on pg. 128 of Stormwrack because I thought that riverine would be lighter or weightless, but apparently there's no discussion about riverine weighing less or more than whatever you'd normally make the item in question out of.

Soarwood (ECS pg. 127) is probably your best bet, though. It's wood that weighs 25% less than normal wood.

[razorback]

Page 55 of Song and Silence (3.0 book) has the Barricade Buckler.
Command word to switch from a buckler to tower shield and another to reverse.
4,165gp, 5 pounds as a buckler and 45 as a tower shield.

[Crake]

Feycraft reduces the weight of an item by 1/10th, sadly that'd put you at 20.25lb... sooo i guess, shave off the corners?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Build a tower shield as a paper shield over a light wooden frame.

It won't protect against attacks, but it will protect against non-damaging emanations, and it should be quite light.

Then construct an identical tower shield out of riverine to make it indestructible.

[Gruftzwerg]

I see a logical problem here, more important than weight of the tower shield.

If an enemy casts antimagic field your gloves stop to work. And I don't know if you intend to get it out in the moment you spot a "random" caster (if you spot/identify him in the enemy crowd at all..).

So, I guess it wouldn't work as you want it.

Better go with an Animated Tower Shield, get the nice AC bonus for free all the time and grab it the moment (in your action turn / I guess as moveaction) when an enemy casts Antimagic Field and rdy it for cover (standard action).

edit: maybe ask your DM if you can take Quick Draw ontop to make the grabing a free action. Now you could always ready a free action to grab the shield if it gets affected by antimagic field (or otherwise gets hit by dispell and so on..). This would leave you the move action to use for that round (cause you still need a standard action to rdy the tower shield for cover).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I see a logical problem here, more important than weight of the tower shield.

If an enemy casts antimagic field your gloves stop to work. And I don't know if you intend to get it out in the moment you spot a "random" caster (if you spot/identify him in the enemy crowd at all..).

So, I guess it wouldn't work as you want it.

Better go with an Animated Tower Shield, get the nice AC bonus for free all the time and grab it the moment (in your action turn / I guess as moveaction) when an enemy casts Antimagic Field and rdy it for cover (standard action).He's wanting to make a handheld tinfoil hat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat).

Also, tower shields hit you with some stupid penalties for wielding them, even when animated, so it's not a good idea unless you have a reason for doing so.

[Gruftzwerg]

He's wanting to make a handheld tinfoil hat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat).

Also, tower shields hit you with some stupid penalties for wielding them, even when animated, so it's not a good idea unless you have a reason for doing so.


When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.

I don't think an animated tower shield encumbrances you..


A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.
While "such as" is an nonexlusive list which the attack penalty could be a part of, imho it is not. Tower Shield is a core item and it would be sole core thing unmentioned in this text.

RAW you are right I guess, RAI is another story and I guess that the attack penalty shouldn't apply to an animated tower shield.

[jmax]

He's wanting to make a handheld tinfoil hat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat).

This actually gets me pretty close to what I want, although it doesn't give me the option to bum-rush into the antimagic field.


Feycraft reduces the weight of an item by 1/10th, sadly that'd put you at 20.25lb... sooo i guess, shave off the corners?

You know, I've used Feycraft before myself. I should have thought of that one. But yeah, still slightly short of target.


Build a tower shield as a paper shield over a light wooden frame.

It won't protect against attacks, but it will protect against non-damaging emanations, and it should be quite light.

Then construct an identical tower shield out of riverine to make it indestructible.

I'll give this an A as the most creative solution so far :-)


I see a logical problem here, more important than weight of the tower shield.

If an enemy casts antimagic field your gloves stop to work.

Yep, the plan is to fly into the asteroid antimagic field. With a tower shield, you can maintain total cover while doing so and, unlike with the tinfoil hat, still see. I'll update the original post to make that clear.


Great ideas overall, folks. Sorry for the lack of detail - I posted this right before going to bed.

Is there no non-third-party magical enchantment that just makes something lighter?

[Zaq]

What's wrong with my soarwood suggestion?

[Fizban]

Just make it Sizing, turn it into a buckler, then store it. Assuming you can store/return a shield while it's being wielded. 'Cause it explicitly takes a move action to ready a shield, so if it isn't automatically equipped by the unshrinking from the magic suppression, it's not going to do anything until you take a move action to ready it.

[Ignimortis]

What's wrong with my soarwood suggestion?

Darkwood is lighter than soarwood - 50% weight vs 75% weight. Therefore, making a tower shield out of soarwood would make it weigh 37.5 lbs, far more than a glove of storing could handle.

[jmax]

Just make it Sizing, turn it into a buckler, then store it. Assuming you can store/return a shield while it's being wielded. 'Cause it explicitly takes a move action to ready a shield, so if it isn't automatically equipped by the unshrinking from the magic suppression, it's not going to do anything until you take a move action to ready it.

With the glove of storing it actually gets equipped. I'm not expecting it to work if it's in the glove when I enter the field - I plan to pop it up and charge into the field. Possibly as something smallish but silly with shapechange :-D


Darkwood is lighter than soarwood - 50% weight vs 75% weight. Therefore, making a tower shield out of soarwood would make it weigh 37.5 lbs, far more than a glove of storing could handle.

33.75 lbs (tower shield starts at 45, not 50), but otherwise exactly correct. Sorry, Ignimortis - I meant to comment on this and missed it in my quote-clicking.


I'm working on designing a custom magic shield that I think might fit the bill for what I want, but if I can find something that works out of the box, that's better. Although the shield is shaping up to be pretty cool.

[Gruftzwerg]

k, I'll give it another try ;p

How about a dancing tower shield?

Can fight on its own and since it has attacks, it can give em up to grant total cover behind it. Only a single standard action for 4 rounds duration is needed (and most fights don't last longer).

edit: Note, you would still need Quick Draw & a free action readied to pick the Shield up, when the enemy casts AMF.

Another expensive/suboptimal solution would be Ring of Arming.
Switches between 2 entire sets of armor & weapons. Downside is, that you'll need an entire secondary equipment. But hey, maybe you can abuse it to your favor?

[ExLibrisMortis]

A shield is technically armour, right? I mean, it's on the armour table. Dragon #358 has the Lightweight nonmagical armour enhancement, which reduces the weight of the item by 20%, getting you an 18 lb tower sheild.

[razorback]

What's wrong with my soarwood suggestion?


Page 55 of Song and Silence (3.0 book) has the Barricade Buckler.
Command word to switch from a buckler to tower shield and another to reverse.
4,165gp, 5 pounds as a buckler and 45 as a tower shield.

Yeah, what's wrong with mine, too?
The only issue I see is that it's a buckler going into antimagic. You just need to convince the DM that it's a tower shield that resizes into a buckler, I suppose.

[Fizban]

With the glove of storing it actually gets equipped. I'm not expecting it to work if it's in the glove when I enter the field
Popping out of the glove automatically is the only part that is guaranteed to work

On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. . . With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. If an effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. . .
Shields are not held in he hand- they must be "readied." One could try to interpret readying as only the shield version of drawing a weapon, except it also explicitly takes a move action to "loose" a shield. Shields are worn strapped to your arm, and unless you have a very particular reading that says tower shields aren't shields and thus don't require ready/loose actions, it's not going to appear ready, because the item only appears in your hand.

It will however appear automatically, as will anything stored in a Glove of Storing. As will a Sizing Tower Shield revert to tower size even if you leave it in buckler form at all times. If you're of a level to care about Antimagic Fields you ought to be able to compensate for the minor penalties of wearing a buckler.

[edathompson2]

Put a blanket over your entire body and use tremor sense.

[jmax]

Ok, apparently I'm missing all kinds of things today. I suppose that's what I get for trying to cram forum time in between getting ready for work. My humble apologies to everyone I missed on both passes, and I'll make sure I take more time and care in the future.


Yeah, what's wrong with mine, too?
The only issue I see is that it's a buckler going into antimagic. You just need to convince the DM that it's a tower shield that resizes into a buckler, I suppose.

Command word is a standard action, so from an action economy perspective that causes problems. If the DM can be convinced that the default is the tower shield, this otherwise works. Sorry for missing this earlier.


A shield is technically armour, right? I mean, it's on the armour table. Dragon #358 has the Lightweight nonmagical armour enhancement, which reduces the weight of the item by 20%, getting you an 18 lb tower sheild.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thank you!


Put a blanket over your entire body and use tremor sense.

Ok, bonus points of being hilarious. Pretty sure I can't sell my DM on a blanket granting total cover though :-P



Popping out of the glove automatically is the only part that is guaranteed to work

Shields are not held in he hand- they must be "readied." One could try to interpret readying as only the shield version of drawing a weapon, except it also explicitly takes a move action to "loose" a shield. Shields are worn strapped to your arm, and unless you have a very particular reading that says tower shields aren't shields and thus don't require ready/loose actions, it's not going to appear ready, because the item only appears in your hand.

It will however appear automatically, as will anything stored in a Glove of Storing. As will a Sizing Tower Shield revert to tower size even if you leave it in buckler form at all times. If you're of a level to care about Antimagic Fields you ought to be able to compensate for the minor penalties of wearing a buckler.

Hmm. Ok, that is a problem. I thought the Glove of Storing put the item back in the same configuration as how you were holding it before, but if not, this whole premise loses a lot of its value. A few other threads across various forums seems split but with more leaning in favor of it still needing the move action to ready in addition to it popping back.

I've actually never used a shield in game before, so I also never came across the rule about having to ready a shield. However, the same rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#readyorLooseaShield) says you can do it for free as part of a move action if you have BAB +1 or better, so I think that will work out ok.

Regarding Sizing - are you referring to the Magic Item Compendium (p43) property? Or is there another printing somewhere? MIC's is for weapons and just changes their size rather than converting them from one type to another.


k, I'll give it another try ;p

How about a dancing tower shield?

Can fight on its own and since it has attacks, it can give em up to grant total cover behind it. Only a single standard action for 4 rounds duration is needed (and most fights don't last longer).

edit: Note, you would still need Quick Draw & a free action readied to pick the Shield up, when the enemy casts AMF.

Another expensive/suboptimal solution would be Ring of Arming.
Switches between 2 entire sets of armor & weapons. Downside is, that you'll need an entire secondary equipment. But hey, maybe you can abuse it to your favor?

Dancing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#dancing) is typically a weapon property, but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to get a DM to let you pay the price of a +4 weapon (which is double) to get the same effect on a shield. It does still run into problems with the action to ready, but I think the "free as part of move if you have +1 BAB" mostly alleviates this. Ring of Arming is cool but requires a standard action to switch.


The only alternative I can think of requires DM buy-in, and that's to see if you can get a Ring of Force Shield made that emulates a tower shield rather than a heavy shield.

And this takes the winner for "thing I totally missed that would have solved my problem perfectly". I never noticed this item before, but it's perfect aside from being a large shield instead of a tower shield. A tower shield version would fit what I want exactly - better than the original thing I asked for - because a wall of force explicitly is not suppressed by an antimagic field and also blocks line of effect, thus preventing the antimagic field from affecting you provided you're using it to provide total cover. No ACP/ASF is a nice bonus. I just have to work out pricing for a tower shield version and, ideally, see if I can move it to a wrist slot since I already have two rings I like for this character.

This is actually very similar to the custom magic item I was putting together, except it's a lot cheaper than what I was figuring. Assuming the pricing breakdown is something along the lines of 500 gp + 2000 * shield bonus ^2, 32,500 would probably be about right for this. I was going to price it at 90,000 for a use-activated wall of force up to 30x30 feet, but this is much better.



So I think I have everything I need now - thank you everyone for contributing!

In summary:

A Lightweight (Dragon #358) darkwood (SRD) tower shield weighs 18 lbs. This fits in a Glove of Storing. Needs a little finagling since the property is intended for armor and doesn't have shield pricing.
A Feycraft (DMG 2) darkwood (SRD) tower shield weighs 20.25 lbs. This is super close to the weight limit for a Glove of Storing, and one can probably convince a DM to round down. Or shave off corners :-P
Even if you cram the tower shield into the Glove of Storing, you may also need to ready the shield before you can use it (depends on whether the DM determines that the item comes back out held exactly the same weight it was at storage time). If you have +1 or better BAB, you can do this as part of a move action, so it's an annoyance but not a huge problem.
If the DM allows applying a weapon property to a shield, Dancing solves the problem of carrying a tower shield at all times. You'll still need to grab it and use the free-action-while-moving to ready it.
A Barricade Buckler made in reverse such that the default is the tower shield rather than the buckler doesn't need to be stored. Wear it in buckler form, and as soon as you enter an antimagic field, it'll turn back into a tower shield - which you can then use to grant total cover against the antimagic field.
Similarly, a Variable (MIC) tower shield can change into a buckler whenever you aren't in an antimagic field but will automatically revert to a tower shield when you enter one.
Shrink Item + enormous Tinfoil Hat is awesome
Ring of Force Shield emulating a tower shield instead of a large shield works perfectly because the wall of force persists through an antimagic field and also blocks it. Pricing for a tower shield variant needs to be worked out. This has the explicit advantage of always matching your size.
Rushing to post while in the middle of doing other things can make one look like an inattentive jerk. -5 points for me.

[Lapak]

And this takes the winner for "thing I totally missed that would have solved my problem perfectly". I never noticed this item before, but it's perfect aside from being a large shield instead of a tower shield. A tower shield version would fit what I want exactly - better than the original thing I asked for - because a wall of force explicitly is not suppressed by an antimagic field and also blocks line of effect, thus preventing the antimagic field from affecting you provided you're using it to provide total cover. No ACP/ASF is a nice bonus. I just have to work out pricing for a tower shield version and, ideally, see if I can move it to a wrist slot since I already have two rings I like for this character.Glad it might be helpful! For what it's worth, if I were the DM running this game I'd be leery of allowing it (even though it makes sense as an extension of the existing item) - free-action access to an item that enables total cover is very, very different from free-action access to a shield. If I were on the player side in your position, I'd offer up-front to pay the 50% premium for reslotting it as a good-faith negotiating tactic. :)

[unseenmage]

In regards to the suggested magic weapon enhancements, because shields can be used to attack they can be enchanted as wrapons IIRC.

[Blue Jay]

In regards to the suggested magic weapon enhancements, because shields can be used to attack they can be enchanted as wrapons IIRC.

But not tower shields: they can't be used to make shield bash attacks, and you can't put shield spikes on them either.

[Fizban]

Regarding Sizing - are you referring to the Magic Item Compendium (p43) property? Or is there another printing somewhere? MIC's is for weapons and just changes their size rather than converting them from one type to another.
My bad, the shield version is Variable for whatever reason (MiC yes). It explicitly turns the shield into one of the other PHB shields.

[Darrin]

You don't need to convince the DM to round down on Feycraft. Rounding down in D&D is the general rule. But there are other ways to... massage the numbers. Darkwood reduces the weight by 50%. Feycraft reduces it by 10%. So feycraft darkwood should weigh 60% less than a normal item. 40% of 45 lbs is 18 lbs.

Instead of Dancing, use the Flying property from Magic of Faerun (+1 enhancement). This gives it a 30' fly speed, and it can also follow verbal directions.

Flying Force Surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5).

[jmax]

Glad it might be helpful! For what it's worth, if I were the DM running this game I'd be leery of allowing it (even though it makes sense as an extension of the existing item) - free-action access to an item that enables total cover is very, very different from free-action access to a shield. If I were on the player side in your position, I'd offer up-front to pay the 50% premium for reslotting it as a good-faith negotiating tactic. :)

Noted :-P

I think nerfing it to activate or deactivate (but not both) once per round (such that you can't deactivate, act, and activate all in one turn) would also likely be an acceptable compromise.


My bad, the shield version is Variable for whatever reason (MiC yes). It explicitly turns the shield into one of the other PHB shields.

Ok, yes, that looks fantastic. Stick that on a tower shield so that it defaults to tower shield when in AMF and it works perfectly for this application. Adding to the summary. Thanks!


EDIT: Cross-posted with Darrin. Replying to that as well.

You don't need to convince the DM to round down on Feycraft. Rounding down in D&D is the general rule. But there are other ways to... massage the numbers. Darkwood reduces the weight by 50%. Feycraft reduces it by 10%. So feycraft darkwood should weigh 60% less than a normal item. 40% of 45 lbs is 18 lbs.

Instead of Dancing, use the Flying property from Magic of Faerun (+1 enhancement). This gives it a 30' fly speed, and it can also follow verbal directions.

Flying Force Surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5).

For rounding down, I thought that generally referred to things adjudicated against die rolls, which are inherently whole numbers. Is there a rule that causes it to apply to all math?

And as far as those alternate calculations, that is totally not how math works and you know it. BUT, now that I think about it, that is how math works in D&D 3.5. It was never intended to be used that way, but it does follow the multiplication rules properly. I somehow doubt my DM (who is also an engineer) is going to buy that, but it's worth a shot :-P

For the Flying Force Surfboard, is there something there actually turning it into force, or is that a comparison with Riverine? Does Riverine block an antimagic field like a wall of force does?

[Gruftzwerg]

Dancing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#dancing) is typically a weapon property, but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to get a DM to let you pay the price of a +4 weapon (which is double) to get the same effect on a shield.

Magic Armor: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm)

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

No need for DM fiat. Just core rules and some math ;)

Pricing for Magic Weapon/Armor Shield:
+ Price of regular Shield
+ costs for Masterwork Armor
+ costs for Masterwork Weapon
+ costs for Magic Armor enchantments
+ costs for Magic Weapon enchantments

[jmax]

Magic Armor: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm)


No need for DM fiat. Just core rules and some math ;)

Pricing for Magic Weapon/Armor Shield:
+ Price of regular Shield
+ costs for Masterwork Armor
+ costs for Masterwork Weapon
+ costs for Magic Armor enchantments
+ costs for Magic Weapon enchantments

Excellent. Thanks!

[Blue Jay]

Magic Armor: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm)


No need for DM fiat. Just core rules and some math ;)

Pricing for Magic Weapon/Armor Shield:
+ Price of regular Shield
+ costs for Masterwork Armor
+ costs for Masterwork Weapon
+ costs for Magic Armor enchantments
+ costs for Magic Weapon enchantments

Except, again, tower shields can't be used as a weapon, so they can't be enchanted as a weapon, either.

I had a player in a recent game who was doing exactly this. I gave him a variable darkwood tower shield, and I let him put a +1 flaming shield spike on it, but it the spike only works when his shield is changed into a light or heavy shield (it disappears in tower shield form, but he can still count the shield as having the flaming property so his dragon spirit cincture still gives him +1 to the save DC of his breath weapon).

He was also looking at a glove of storing so he could do the free-action switch thing, and we just priced out a double-capacity glove, because there are so many other things I'd rather be doing in the game than worrying about how heavy his shield is at any given time.

[Vizzerdrix]

I could have sworn Id seen something that would do what you wanted. Some material. Was it glasssteel? Maybe something out of A&EG or MoF.

Either way, maybe you could use shapesand to make your towershield instead.

[Gruftzwerg]

Except, again, tower shields can't be used as a weapon, so they can't be enchanted as a weapon, either.


Sry to correct you. Tower Shields can't be used for the regular Shield Bash. But you can still use em as Improvised Weapon (with a -4 toHit penalty).

And if you/the DM somehow insist that Improvised Weapons can't be enchanted as weapons (it's a gray area, but imho raw you can enchant Imp. Weapons):

Since Tower Shields are still "shields"..

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
.. Trumps the general rule that the target of weapon enchantments needs to be a "weapon".

[Vizzerdrix]

And if you/the DM somehow insist that Improvised Weapons can't be enchanted as weapons (it's a gray area, but imho raw you can enchant Imp. Weapons

Wow. Wowowow hold on for a second. This is more important. Are you saying we can have +1 everfull frost mugs? Because thats what Im hearing. Tastey cold brews whenever we want them. THAT is what you are saying? So why havent we optomized this yet? Anyone?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wow. Wowowow hold on for a second. This is more important. Are you saying we can have +1 everfull frost mugs? Because thats what Im hearing. Tastey cold brews whenever we want them. THAT is what you are saying? So why havent we optomized this yet? Anyone?
Well, there's a deep philosophical question here: if something is said to be an improvised [something], does that mean it is [something] (but improvised), or is it not [something] (but used in the manner of/in a way reminescent of/to achieve a result you would normally achieve with [something])?

If an everfull mug is a weapon, you can enchant it if it's a masterwork mug.

[Blue Jay]

Sry to correct you. Tower Shields can't be used for the regular Shield Bash. But you can still use em as Improvised Weapon (with a -4 toHit penalty).

And if you/the DM somehow insist that Improvised Weapons can't be enchanted as weapons (it's a gray area, but imho raw you can enchant Imp. Weapons)

You recall the rule that only masterwork weapons can be enhanced with weapon properties, right?

So, the question is, can you make a masterwork version of an improvised weapon?

Here's the SRD definition of an improvised weapon:

"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object."

source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons)
I'm pretty sure a masterwork chair leg would count as "crafted to be a weapon," since that's specifically what "masterwork" means. That means a masterwork improvised weapon cannot exist.

So, no: by RAW, you cannot magically enhance an improvised weapon.


Since Tower Shields are still "shields"..


A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

.. Trumps the general rule that the target of weapon enchantments needs to be a "weapon".
...but doesn't trump the even-more-specific rule that tower shields can't be used for shield bash attacks.

[Darrin]

For rounding down, I thought that generally referred to things adjudicated against die rolls, which are inherently whole numbers. Is there a rule that causes it to apply to all math?


There is indeed a general rule. PHB p. 304:

"In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger."



And as far as those alternate calculations, that is totally not how math works and you know it. BUT, now that I think about it, that is how math works in D&D 3.5. It was never intended to be used that way, but it does follow the multiplication rules properly. I somehow doubt my DM (who is also an engineer) is going to buy that, but it's worth a shot :-P


Darkwood (DMG p. 283): "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield weighs 45 lbs. Half that is 22.5, a reduction in weight of 22.5 lbs.

Feycraft (DMGII p. 275): "A feycraft shield or suit of armor weighs 10% less than its normal counterpart." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield (NOT a darkwood tower shield) weighs 45 lbs. Reducing the weight by 10% would be 4.5 lbs.

By adding feycraft, you are reducing the weight by 4.5 lbs, a value that the rules tell you how to calculate. If it's a normal tower shield, that drops the weight to 40.5 lbs. For a darkwood tower shield, it drops the weight to 18 lbs.

At no point do the rules tell you to multiply the percentages together. In fact, there aren't any rules in D&D that specify a particular order of operations.

Oh, and the rule about fractions is ambiguous... it doesn't tell you at what point you drop fractions down to the nearest whole number. Presumably it's a "last step" kind of thing... but again, D&D does not enforce any particular order of operations.



For the Flying Force Surfboard, is there something there actually turning it into force, or is that a comparison with Riverine? Does Riverine block an antimagic field like a wall of force does?

Riverine is made out of supercompressed water enclosed by walls of force (at which point you need the water for... what exactly?). Unfortunately, whoever came up with the idea only spent about 30 seconds thinking about the implications, so there wasn't much thought put into what happens when you bring it into an AMF.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Riverine is made out of supercompressed water enclosed by walls of force (at which point you need the water for... what exactly?).Easy. Mass (and therefore, weight). Swinging a riverine sword that weighs nothing won't have the same impact (heh) as one with the same weight as the sword it's emulating.


Unfortunately, whoever came up with the idea only spent about 30 seconds thinking about the implications, so there wasn't much thought put into what happens when you bring it into an AMF.Riverine is (as you mentioned) made from walls of force. Said walls are immune to the effects of antimagic fields once in effect.

[Gruftzwerg]

You recall the rule that only masterwork weapons can be enhanced with weapon properties, right?

So, the question is, can you make a masterwork version of an improvised weapon?

Here's the SRD definition of an improvised weapon:

I'm pretty sure a masterwork chair leg would count as "crafted to be a weapon," since that's specifically what "masterwork" means. That means a masterwork improvised weapon cannot exist.

So, no: by RAW, you cannot magically enhance an improvised weapon.
I don't see why one should exclude the other? The primary purpose of the "magic chair"-improvised weapon is still to be a chair. It's secondary purpose is to be a masterwork/magical (improvised) weapon (e.g. harder materials, spiky legs..).
Imho you pay the price of the masterwork weapon upgrade for an item and are rdy to go to enchant it.
But as said, gray area and imho at most tables up to DM decision since the rules are just not clear enough here.




...but doesn't trump the even-more-specific rule that tower shields can't be used for shield bash attacks.

And what does that have to do with enchanting it as a weapon?

Nothing!

All Shields can be enchanted as weapon > here you go with your Dancing Tower Shield.

The Dancing Tower Shield may not use Shield Bash sadly and has to use itself as improvised weapon instead (-4 toHit), but that doesn't change the fact, that all shields may be enchanted as weapons and thus it works.

[jmax]

There is indeed a general rule. PHB p. 304:

"In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger."



Darkwood (DMG p. 283): "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield weighs 45 lbs. Half that is 22.5, a reduction in weight of 22.5 lbs.

Feycraft (DMGII p. 275): "A feycraft shield or suit of armor weighs 10% less than its normal counterpart." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield (NOT a darkwood tower shield) weighs 45 lbs. Reducing the weight by 10% would be 4.5 lbs.

By adding feycraft, you are reducing the weight by 4.5 lbs, a value that the rules tell you how to calculate. If it's a normal tower shield, that drops the weight to 40.5 lbs. For a darkwood tower shield, it drops the weight to 18 lbs.

At no point do the rules tell you to multiply the percentages together. In fact, there aren't any rules in D&D that specify a particular order of operations.

Oh, and the rule about fractions is ambiguous... it doesn't tell you at what point you drop fractions down to the nearest whole number. Presumably it's a "last step" kind of thing... but again, D&D does not enforce any particular order of operations.



Riverine is made out of supercompressed water enclosed by walls of force (at which point you need the water for... what exactly?). Unfortunately, whoever came up with the idea only spent about 30 seconds thinking about the implications, so there wasn't much thought put into what happens when you bring it into an AMF.

Still not sure that's what the designers intended for the math, but it does seem to be written into the general rules. Nice.

Regarding riverine - ok, yeah, that should work. Odd that it's 2000 gp per pound when part that makes it special (the walls of force) is weightless.


Wow. Wowowow hold on for a second. This is more important. Are you saying we can have +1 everfull frost mugs? Because thats what Im hearing. Tastey cold brews whenever we want them. THAT is what you are saying? So why havent we optomized this yet? Anyone?

I'll do you one better. While everyone else is busy arguing over whether tower shields and improvised weapons can get weapon enchantments, we'll be enjoying a nice brew from our +1 Frost Seeking Everfull mugs. The Seeking enchantment ensures that the fired beer ignores any cover that the rest of your body might provide against your esophagus, which is really useful after the first few rounds. You only have to get it into the same 5-foot square. Since ranged weapons (such as beer mugs, which throw pre-set amounts of beer with a range increment of 6 inches and must be reloaded between throws) confer their enchantments on their ammunition, the beer becomes both Frosty and Seeking. It also has a +1 enhancement bonus on the attack roll to hit your esophagus and a +1 enhancement bonus on damage to your liver.

[Blue Jay]

There is indeed a general rule. PHB p. 304:

"In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger."

...

At no point do the rules tell you to multiply the percentages together. In fact, there aren't any rules in D&D that specify a particular order of operations.

Actually, there are. Under the next section, "Multiplying," it says this:

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead.

So, you multiply multipliers as normal, because it's dealing with a real-world value.

That said, I feel like DM's have more important and interesting things to do than make sure you don't go a single ounce over your weight limit, so I would advocate fudging a detail or two in this context (just let the player have 20.25 lbs in his glove of storing: who cares, really?).


I don't see why one should exclude the other? The primary purpose of the "magic chair"-improvised weapon is still to be a chair. It's secondary purpose is to be a masterwork/magical (improvised) weapon (e.g. harder materials, spiky legs..).
Imho you pay the price of the masterwork weapon upgrade for an item and are rdy to go to enchant it.
But as said, gray area and imho at most tables up to DM decision since the rules are just not clear enough here.

Okay, I came into this arguing that your idea is not supported by RAW, because your original comment was that no DM fiat was needed. Clearly, you've backed off from that.

If you'd like to know how I'd rule in this situation, I would rely on context. If we're playing a lighthearted game, and you're a drunken master who wants to commission an artificer to make him a +1 flaming chair because it would be hilarious, I might allow it. But, if you're just leaning on rules minutiae to justify an exploit, I would not allow it.


And what does that have to do with enchanting it as a weapon?

Nothing!

All Shields can be enchanted as weapon > here you go with your Dancing Tower Shield.

The Dancing Tower Shield may not use Shield Bash sadly and has to use itself as improvised weapon instead (-4 toHit), but that doesn't change the fact, that all shields may be enchanted as weapons and thus it works.
It doesn't say "All shields can be enchanted as weapons." You're reading a single unspecified comment and interpreting it as an authoritative, blanket permission.

Here's the full quote from DMG:

Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). You could, in fact, build a shield that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
In context, it's pretty clear that it's referring to shields that are already usable as weapons, and not telling you that all shields qualify for taking weapon enhancements.

Curiously, the very next line after the one you quoted is an example: it's a buckler with shield spikes. And of course, according to the PHB, you can't put shield spikes on a buckler. I do wish we had a facepalm smiley on this forum.

[Gruftzwerg]

Okay, I came into this arguing that your idea is not supported by RAW, because your original comment was that no DM fiat was needed. Clearly, you've backed off from that.
No I haven't backed off from the argument that Shields (incl tower shields) can be enchanted as magic weapon by RAW. I just pointed out that "improvised weapons" are a gray area where the DM has the last word.




It doesn't say "All shields can be enchanted as weapons." You're reading a single unspecified comment and interpreting it as an authoritative, blanket permission.

Here's the full quote from DMG:

In context, it's pretty clear that it's referring to shields that are already usable as weapons, and not telling you that all shields qualify for taking weapon enhancements.

Curiously, the very next line after the one you quoted is an example: it's a buckler with shield spikes. And of course, according to the PHB, you can't put shield spikes on a buckler. I do wish we had a facepalm smiley on this forum.

ehm...? how shall I start..
You quoted 3 sentences. And the last one is the one I quoted. There is no "next line after" my quote in your quote (unless you talk about the sentence before it..).

The 1st sentence you quoted just talk about shield enchantment bonuses not affecting attack & dmg rolls with a shield.
The 2nd just talks about the "Bashing" shield enchantment (not a weapon enchantment!).
The 3rd sentence gives you a (new) option to enchant shields (not further specified and no indication that it relies on "bashing", so doesn't exclude tower shields) as magic weapon.

The 3rd sentence doesn't alter/effect the previous sentences. It adds a new option/rule/exception (to the 1st sentence), nothing else.

I don't know what the intention of the designers was and maybe RAI it shouldn't work. But by RAW it works.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take a tower shield, polymorph any object it into a Small tower shield, and store it in the glove? When exposed to the antimagic field effect, the glove and the PAO are both suppressed, thereby giving you access to the tower shield while in the AMF? Or for further benefits outside of antimagic, PAO it into a weapon and enhance it with sizing and morphing.

[Bohandas]

Shrink Item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shrink-item). Lasts a day per CL, so it will rarely-to-never cut into your adventuring spell routine.

EDIT: Nope, never mind. Doesn't look like that spell reduces the item's weight.

No ,it reduces it by a factor of 4000


Shrink Item
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration: One day/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.

This also allows it to be combined with a flying familiar to create a Lazy Dog bomb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_Dog_(bomb))

[Bohandas]

Darkwood (DMG p. 283): "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type."

This also partly answers the question of "can improvised weapons be masterwork?"

A leg ripped off of a darkwood table is a masterwork weapon