Durkon's weapons against Durkon*

[Lord Torath]

Just figured I'd summarize the tools we see that Durkon might be able to use to fight back at Durkon*.

Durkon* is not good at connecting ideas. "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html)

Durkon is no longer banished from his homeland. "t is true. And the truth always has a use." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html)

And, of course, Durkon has a son. And a(n) crazy angry ex-girlfriend (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html).

I don't know enough about how Rich's vampires work [I]internally to know if Durkon has any hope of throwing off Durkon*'s blood ties. I suppose that Malack Classic had given up struggling against the vampire's control over a century ago.

Can anyone thing of any other Chekov's Guns we've seen?

[Fyraltari]

Biology is disgusting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)

[D.One]

Biology is disgusting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)

And if Loki and Thor got disgusted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html), I imagine Durkon*, seeing everything in first person, will be really nauseated...

[Fyraltari]

And if Loki and Thor got disgusted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html), I imagine Durkon*, seeing everything in first person, will be really nauseated...

For an undead to witness a conception it must be like for a living to witness the rotting of a corpse.

Edit: I always read it as Loki and Thor being disgusted because it kind of amounts to incest-by-proxy, though.

[Lethologica]

Emotions are tricky. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0980.html) Well, maybe. Probably not.

[Themrys]

For an undead to witness a conception it must be like for a living to witness the rotting of a corpse.

Edit: I always read it as Loki and Thor being disgusted because it kind of amounts to incest-by-proxy, though.

Thor clearly doesn't have a problem with having sex himself.

And as for Loki, he hasn't done much in this comic that I remember, but in mythology this is the guy who gave birth to an eight-legged foal. So, yeah.

I read it as them being disgusted because they hate each other and see their clerics as kind of an extension of themselves.

[Fish]

Durkula may not know who Hilgya is, or how Hilgya figures into Durkon's past. Durkon could show limited selections of those memories.

And since Durkula clearly doesn't understand the motivations of the living, as given in the first link, he's almost certain to get the wrong impression.

Plus: the memories would probably be about dwarven biology in action.

How does the truth about Durkon's banishment figure into this? Hilgya knows about Durkon's banishment. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) That truth is probably more useful for her to know, than for Durkula.

[JohanOfKitten]

Durkula may not know who Hilgya is, or how Hilgya figures into Durkon's past. Durkon could show limited selections of those memories.
Actually, I'm wondering if Durkula is not well aware of who Hilgya is and what are Durkon's feelings for her.

If we look at the end of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html), Durkon clearly states that feelings like the start of love he might feel for Hilgya are bury in the "deep dark place of his soul".
And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html), we have Durkula explaining to Durkon how he's been created and how he absorbs first the "lowest, darkest moments of host's life".

Sure, the exile of dwarven lands is the worst moment for Durkon and it shapes a lot the mentally and the grudges of Durkula.
But "pushing away burgeoning love to fulfill duty of both dwarves, breaking Hilgya's heart," is seemingly in the same dark spot of Durkon's soul. This suffering, buried by Durkon long ago, must be a part of the first memories absorbed by Durkula. And as the exile shaped a lot of Durkula personality, the lost love must have some impact too.

Hard to say how much it could impact the present situation, but it could distract Durkula, seeing the possibility to fullfil another one of his "dark" desire.

[WindStruck]

Durkula knows Hilgya is filled with tasty blood without even seeing her. He can probably smell it.

V knows Hilgya fits in a force cage.

Belkar knows she's worth a lot of XP.

Elan knows she must be very important to the plot.

Haley knows she must have a lot of money on her. Either that or expensive items.

Roy for once, will not remember Hilgya, much to her annoyance.

[D.One]

Durkula knows Hilgya is filled with tasty blood without even seeing her. He can probably smell it.

V knows Hilgya fits in a force cage.

Belkar knows she's worth a lot of XP.

Elan knows she must be very important to the plot.

Haley knows she must have a lot of money on her. Either that or expensive items.

Roy for once, will not remember Hilgya, much to her annoyance.

I see Roy recognizing her and feeling specially responsible for baby dwarf, as the child of his best friend and all. That's just "his thing" taking responsibilities to himself this way.

[Fish]

Actually, I'm wondering if Durkula is not well aware of who Hilgya is and what are Durkon's feelings for her.
Oh, I agree with you here. We have no evidence that Durkula knows of Hilgya ... and no evidence that he doesn't. If your theory is correct, then Durkon knows all about her.

However, that theory also gives Durkon no way to influence the situation. Feeding accurate (but misleading and misdirecting) memories to steer Durkula is one of the few things Durkon can do. That's why I lean toward Durkula not knowing, because it gives Durkon something to do. Of course, I could be wrong.

[D.One]

Oh, I agree with you here. We have no evidence that Durkula knows of Hilgya ... and no evidence that he doesn't. If your theory is correct, then Durkon knows all about her.

However, that theory also gives Durkon no way to influence the situation. Feeding accurate (but misleading and misdirecting) memories to steer Durkula is one of the few things Durkon can do. That's why I lean toward Durkula not knowing, because it gives Durkon something to do. Of course, I could be wrong.

I think what can help Durkon against Greg is not the VampSpirit not knowing her, but not understanding the emotional context and connections between them.

PS: Also, Durkon is all about duty and family, and I can think of no greater call for duty than to care for a one's child.

[Chronos]

Don't forget fear.

Fear and surprise.

Fear, surprise, and a fanatical devotion to the High Priest of Thor.

[Fyraltari]

Don't forget fear.

Fear and surprise.

Fear, surprise, and a fanatical devotion to the High Priest of Thor.

Who expects the Dwarfish Inquisition ?

Nobody! That's who!

[Darth Paul]

Don't forget fear.

Fear and surprise.

Fear, surprise, and a fanatical devotion to the High Priest of Thor.

And nice chain-mail uniforms...

[Concept]

First, why invent new notation, and confusing at that?

Second, going by the thread title, I assume you mean this is supposed to be pieces of information that Durkon's captive spirit can use to mislead his possessing vampire. However, you are mostly listing things that Durkon does not know about yet. At all.

Do you mean that if he is quick witted, he can use these as weapons when they both learn about it at the same time, and the vampire starts probing his memory for context?

The counterargument is that Durkon will likely be shocked and overwhelmed, while the vampire will likely be in combat and won't care. You may be onto something, but I think Durkon is already working whatever angle he can, using what he already knows.

[Kish]

First, why invent new notation, and confusing at that?
He didn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html).

[hroþila]

Do you mean that if he is quick witted, he can use these as weapons when they both learn about it at the same time, and the vampire starts probing his memory for context
I don't think Lord Torath has any specific scenario in mind, he just listed some bits that seem to be particularly important and that may somehow play a role in defeating Vamp Durkon; Hilgyuson qualifies in that regard.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hilgyuson
That -gyu- cluster looks atrocious. Is it at least correct? It would be a nice palliative if it was.

[hroþila]

That -gyu- cluster looks atrocious. Is it at least correct? It would be a nice palliative if it was.
I can't say it's "correct" because "Hilgya" is not actually a Norse name, but if it was, then yes, "Hilgyuson" would be the proper derivation.

[TheNecrocomicon]

The fundamental fact is that the vampire Lurkon (or whatever you insist on calling him) is a negative energy spirit and abhors positive sentiments/emotions with every fiber of its being.

Thus, whatever the Order are able or unable to do from the outside, there remain conceivable ways to disgust and disorient Lurkon, quite possibly to the vampire's downfall, by harnessing enough positive emotions like love and affection -- particularly on the deepest, strongest level like that for one's own family.

I would not be surprised if the conga-line of revelations of a rescinded exile, a loving mother and relatives, a seemingly long-lost paramour, an infant son, and a number of civilians (like Minrah) who don't know him personally but think of him as a friend or a role model are collectively enough to befuddle Lurkon, even if temporarily. That might be just enough of an opening that the Order will be able to thwart his plans, destroy him directly, and leave Durkon free to be resurrected to rejoin the land of the living.

[Lord Torath]

I don't think Lord Torath has any specific scenario in mind, he just listed some bits that seem to be particularly important and that may somehow play a role in defeating Vamp Durkon; Hilgyuson qualifies in that regard.Pretty much this. I don't know if there's anything Durkon can do to throw off Durkon*'s control. Vampires might not work that way. But they just might, hence the thread.

So, assume all goes well, and Hilgya helps the Order kill Durkon*. Then, as the highest-leveled cleric around, Hilgya casts Resurrection. Durkon Classic suddenly knows Hilgya's alignment (which may be Evil - may not be, but still may be Evil). Will his spirit be present enough to know that she's the one casting Resurrection (he was presumably looking out Durkon*'s eyes as he "dies", and may see Hilgya's presence), and accept the spell? It may be cast a day later (if Hilgya doesn't have it prepared, she'll need to wait until dusk? Maybe?), so time may have passed.

[Kish]

Durkon would know the resurrecting cleric's name, alignment, and patron deity.\

"Hilgya Firehelm, Chaotic Evil, Loki" might give Durkon pause for three reasons, but...actually I think it's real unlikely that Greg will never see Hilgya even as she helps the Order kill him, and Durkon sees what Greg sees.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Hilgya Firehelm, Chaotic Evil, Loki" might give Durkon pause for three reasons

What if it was "Hilgya Firehelm, Chaotic Neutral, Freya"?
(I kid, I kid... for now)
Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

a number of civilians (like Minrah) who don't know him personally but think of him as a friend or a role model

Citation needed.

[Lord Torath]

What if it was "Hilgya Firehelm, Chaotic Neutral, Freya"?
(I kid, I kid... for now)
Grey WolfUntil we have at least a little bit of evidence suggesting that is so, I think we should pay attention to your white text. :smalltongue:

Also, I forgot that the spirit gets to know the name of the casting cleric. That makes Durkon much more likely to agree to the Resurrection. Plus, if his spirit is still hanging around, he might even be able to watch her cast it.

[KorvinStarmast]

If he sees his son (assuming that baby is his son) I doubt he'll care about her alignment and joyfully accept the resurrection as it is cast. Home and hearth have been his deepest yearnings since he was exiled from the Dwarf homeland.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Until we have at least a little bit of evidence suggesting that is so, I think we should pay attention to your white text. :smalltongue:

Evidence (https://youtu.be/EvrbZrsmT3E?t=93)? There is more to life than evidence.
I'll get in the effing sack
Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Evidence (https://youtu.be/EvrbZrsmT3E?t=93)? There is more to life than evidence.
I'll get in the effing sack
Grey Wolf

Careful, remember what assuming has in commonwith breathing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html)...

[TheNecrocomicon]

Citation needed.

Well, what would this forum be without nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking?

Here. Ten strips ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html) Okay, I misremembered how Minrah reacted to his name, but clearly she knows his mother well enough to be on a first-name basis and thinks positively of the family in general. Plus there's the Brewmaster, who even after twenty years still thinks somewhat fondly of Durkon.

The community remembers Durkon, even if a little distantly, and they don't hold the prophecy against him nor even know why he was banished because Hurak never told anyone -- except Brewmaster Blackore, who was sworn to utmost secrecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1097.html).

Put another way, the Thundershield family, and by extension Durkon himself, are still admired and respected throughout the community. Of course, the destruction being wrought by the vampire Lurkon will damage that, but a dwarven town's worth of welcoming respect is still a positive emotion that the negative-energy-based vampire will abhor.

[Fyraltari]

snip

"Sergent Sigdi" doesn't exactly feel like first name basis to me, more like a neighbourhood nickname and she is the only one of the three acolytes to react to it.
The Brewmaster remembered Durkon because his complicity in his exile has been eating him for years.
Remember that High Priestess Rubyrock only knows the name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html) as "that one guy who sent me a letter about being exiled for some reason".

So, no the community does not remember the Thundershields as some long line of heroes, some of them thinks fondly of Sigdi but she is after all still alive (or at least was at the time of the letter) and thosewho knew Durkon remember him but that's about it.

At least that's how I see the evidece we're shown maybe there is more to come.

[random_guy]

A lock of Tenrin Thundershield's beard is in his grave.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html

The expiration date for casting resurrection is 10 years per caster level. Any future significance to the fact he had remains that can be used to resurrect him? A sapper would be helpful in dealing with vampires while underground.

[Kish]

It was something Durkon's mother carried, not part of his body at the time he died. Thus, it cannot be used to resurrect him even if hair would normally work.

[random_guy]

I missed that part of the spell description. The description says any part of the body, even the remains from a disintegrate spell. Under normal circumstances, hair would work, but it must be part of him at the time of death.

Another thought occurs to me as a result of this train of thought. Are there any other sappers among the dwarves? Caving in tunnels to shine light on the vampires has to be a tactic that catches someone's interest. Maybe Tenrin himself will not return, but a flashback to him could be instrumental in defeating Durkon*.

[Fyraltari]

I missed that part of the spell description. The description says any part of the body, even the remains from a disintegrate spell. Under normal circumstances, hair would work, but it must be part of him at the time of death.

Another thought occurs to me as a result of this train of thought. Are there any other sappers among the dwarves? Caving in tunnels to shine light on the vampires has to be a tactic that catches someone's interest. Maybe Tenrin himself will not return, but a flashback to him could be instrumental in defeating Durkon*.

I can't remember what thread it was but this was brought up and the conclusion was that since they are under a mountain in the middle of the night it is not likely to work.