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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Would like some help balancing my class, the Juggernaut!



mkirshnikov
2017-11-22, 01:52 AM
Alright, since my first thread was up for 2 months and got no helpful replies, I'm trying again.

The most recent version of this class will be on the Homebrewery page below! I'm still very open to any criticisms, as I've just been balancing it over time based off of my limited knowledge of the game. While I think it is now much better than it originally was, I'd still like to be certain :)

I highly encourage giving constructive criticism and playtesting.



The Homebrewery page! (Can finally use links now!) (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Syn4z1D0W)


[Everything below is old, but I've kept what was necessary.]


I will start off with this. I was checking out tanky homebrew classes on various websites and found one called the Juggernaut. I really liked the theme of the class but when I found it, it was incredibly overpowered. I had seen a couple other classes that were also thematically and mechanically interesting and decided to combine them to something more balanced and more fitting thematically(In my opinion). I'll list my sources at the bottom of this paragraph. I'm posting the class here for feedback on it's strength and if it's a good class, or some ideas on skills that could or should be different. Also, if people want to playtest it go right ahead! This is my first time "making" a class, and I'm still learning the mechanics of D&D, so I wouldn't be surprised if something's off.

Lalliman
2017-11-22, 01:29 PM
I like tanky characters, so this class speaks to me. However, this is an unusual design that’s very hard to balance, so I have a lot to say about it. I’m going to start with some specific points and do an overall appraisal of the class at the end.


1. Couldn’t you make a class table in word or something?

2. Technically speaking, none of the features actually mention the need to wield your colossal shield (even in the case of Defensive Stance, you could feasibly hold any other shield in two hands). This means that, unless you want to wield it in two hands and use Heavy Handed, your colossal shield is worse than a normal shield. While held in one hand, all it does is grant the highly-circumstantial ability to create full cover, in return for a -10 penalty to your movement speed, which is a massive detriment for someone who is supposed to be on the frontlines. You’re genuinely better off using a normal shield until you get Mjölnir Shield at 9th level.

3. I can see a lot of interpretation problems in the Taunt feature.
- For one, there is no range, nor a stated need for the target to hear, see or understand you.
- Secondly, although it forces the target to attack you, it technically doesn’t prevent them from attacking anyone else. Someone with multiple attacks could direct one towards you and the others towards someone else, without technically breaking the effect.
- Since it uses the word “attack”, the feature could be interpreted to prevent various actions that it probably shouldn’t. Can the target try to grapple you, or is that not considered an attack? Can they cast Eldritch Blast on you, or is that considered casting a spell rather than attacking? What about Fireball? What about Entangle? What about Darkness? What is an attack and what isn’t?
- Due to the phrasing, it’s actually a potent method of manipulation when used outside of combat. If you’re in a city and someone gets in your way, you can use this on them to force them to attack you (no matter if they held any hostility to you previously), then watch them get dragged away by the guards.

You can solve all of these problems with an overhaul in how Taunt works. I would suggest that instead of forcing the target to attack you, you impose disadvantage on attempts to attack other people, just like the bear totem barbarian. A suggestion on how to phrase it:

Taunt
As a bonus action, you can anger people into fighting you. Choose up to two enemies within 60 feet who can see or hear you. The affected creatures take disadvantage on any attacks or other harmful actions they make against anyone except you. Additionally, the saving throw DCs of their spells or abilities are lowered by 5 if you are not one of the targets. This lasts until your next turn. Targets who can’t be frightened are unaffected.

This is generally weaker than what you have, but in return it doesn’t have a save (fewer rolls is nice), and you can consider upping the amount of uses. Also see my overall verdict at the bottom of this post.

4. Unyielding Strength and Bull Rush should have a save DC based on your Strength. Being static doesn’t make sense.

5. Is it intentional that Defensive Stance reduces your movement speed to what it probably is anyways?

6. Incourable still has a reference to the Rage feature in it. I'm also pretty sure that Incourable isn't a real word.

7. Regenerate provides infinite healing, thus making rests unnecessary. You should devise some way around this, like how the Champion only gets regeneration when below half HP. Also consider how this interacts with Health Sacrifice.

8. Unstoppable Might doesn’t say that the ability score cap is raised, so the boost is likely to go wasted. That aside, it’s obviously way more powerful than the already-very-potent barbarian capstone and should probably be cut down.

9. Health Sacrifice should probably have a maximum based on level, instead of a static one. I also don’t see why this feature out of all healing features would ignore inability to regain HP.

10. Defence of 1000 Shields: How do you determine which side is behind you? Why go through the effort of randomly choosing a square instead of letting them choose? What does “blocking opportunity attacks” mean in this context?


While I do like tanky characters, as said above, this one takes it to a completely ludicrous extreme. It racks up tons of defensive features over time, but has no offensive ones at all outside of the Ravager archetype, and even those are minor. At level 1 the juggernaut is a durable frontliner, but by level 10 it’s basically a glorified wall. I guess that was the point, but it makes the balance incredibly difficult to judge.

As is, I would rate the class as being very powerful in theory, but borderline useless in practice. Let’s have a look at the class’ functionality around, say, level 8, which sits at the higher end of the commonly-played level range. You’ve got tons of HP, high AC, easy access to damage resistance or defensive advantage, and the ability to resist unconsciousness with Con saves. You’re making the barbarian’s tankiness look like child’s play.

But, assuming 18 Strength, you’re going to deal a whopping 1d8+4 damage per round, possibly with disadvantage. If you specialize in doing damage by getting Heavy Handed and Spiked Shield, this will be raised to… 1d8+7, average 11. At the same level, a fighter does about 24 damage per round, without the use of Action Surge, Improved Critical or Combat Superiority.

Ok, so your offensive abilities are a serious dud. Any opponent with any sense will realize this and just walk around you. So what are your alternatives? You can use Taunt to force people to attack you… for three rounds per long rest. You can physically interpose yourself in front of your allies… but your movement speed is 20 feet, so good luck with that. You can grapple people and force them to fight you… but you only have one attack per round, so you better hope it succeeds.

The Defender specialization admittedly gives you some worthwhile stuff to do. Your allies are almost untouchable while you’re standing next to them, which is great, but since you’re so immobile you’re unlikely to zip across the battlefield aiding your allies left and right. So either you’re going to stand on the frontline, in which case the protection granted is rather minor because your AC is probably only 2-4 points higher than theirs. Or you become the duly appointed wizard bodyguard, granting the wizard a massive defensive boost in return for giving up what little damage output you had. Health Sacrifice is also pretty nice, but is being a heal bot really what this class should be about?

I think this class would benefit tremendously from a more rounded structure. If I was you, I would remove either Defensive Stance or Careful Attack (their effects are comparable, and they can’t be used in tandem anyways), and give the following feature instead.

Mighty Physique
At 5th level, you learn to put your mighty strength to use for offense and control. You gain proficiency in Athletics. If you are already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for Athletics checks. Additionally, your melee weapon attacks deal an extra die of damage.
(The name and flavor text can be changed of course. I took this from a different creation of mine.)

This would be a good ability because:
- It raises the juggernaut’s damage to be relevant, without being as high as the fighter. (This is about a 50% damage boost while Extra Attack is double.)
- It increases your ability to grapple, which is an important skill for a tank.

Then, at 11th level, I would put this. (Probably move what’s currently there to a different level.)

Limited Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. However, one of these attacks is made at a -5 penalty. You can choose whether the penalty is applied to the first or second attack.

It’s a bit strange, but I’ve used it before and I think it’s appropriate here. Once again it raises your damage while staying well behind on the fighter. And the reason I don’t just give another damage die is because this extra attack gives you more opportunities to shove and grapple, as a good tank should.

Those two changes will make it much more practical, while making its core design similar enough to other martials to be able to make some decent balance comparisons. If you add these (or something comparable) and address my other points, this class should be very close to playable.


I hope you enjoy a good essay, because I've never spent that much time writing a class critique.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-22, 04:44 PM
1. Couldn’t you make a class table in word or something?
I made it first in google docs, but was told to make it somewhere else for it to be easier to read. I'm going to work on putting it in an official class table because I didn't know about it when I was making the page.


2. Technically speaking, none of the features actually mention the need to wield your colossal shield (even in the case of Defensive Stance, you could feasibly hold any other shield in two hands). This means that, unless you want to wield it in two hands and use Heavy Handed, your colossal shield is worse than a normal shield. While held in one hand, all it does is grant the highly-circumstantial ability to create full cover, in return for a -10 penalty to your movement speed, which is a massive detriment for someone who is supposed to be on the frontlines. You’re genuinely better off using a normal shield until you get Mjölnir Shield at 9th level.Yeah, I've gotten some feedback on reddit saying I should change the Colossal shield to a normal shield, but keep everything else. I might do that, but I'm still thinking about it.


3. I can see a lot of interpretation problems in the Taunt feature.
- For one, there is no range, nor a stated need for the target to hear, see or understand you.
- Secondly, although it forces the target to attack you, it technically doesn’t prevent them from attacking anyone else. Someone with multiple attacks could direct one towards you and the others towards someone else, without technically breaking the effect.
- Since it uses the word “attack”, the feature could be interpreted to prevent various actions that it probably shouldn’t. Can the target try to grapple you, or is that not considered an attack? Can they cast Eldritch Blast on you, or is that considered casting a spell rather than attacking? What about Fireball? What about Entangle? What about Darkness? What is an attack and what isn’t?
- Due to the phrasing, it’s actually a potent method of manipulation when used outside of combat. If you’re in a city and someone gets in your way, you can use this on them to force them to attack you (no matter if they held any hostility to you previously), then watch them get dragged away by the guards.

You can solve all of these problems with an overhaul in how Taunt works. I would suggest that instead of forcing the target to attack you, you impose disadvantage on attempts to attack other people, just like the bear totem barbarian. A suggestion on how to phrase it:

Taunt
As a bonus action, you can anger people into fighting you. Choose up to two enemies within 60 feet who can see or hear you. The affected creatures take disadvantage on any attacks or other harmful actions they make against anyone except you. Additionally, the saving throw DCs of their spells or abilities are lowered by 5 if you are not one of the targets. This lasts until your next turn. Targets who can’t be frightened are unaffected.

This is generally weaker than what you have, but in return it doesn’t have a save (fewer rolls is nice), and you can consider upping the amount of uses. Also see my overall verdict at the bottom of this post.
You have a good point, I'll put this in for Taunt. Thanks!


4. Unyielding Strength and Bull Rush should have a save DC based on your Strength. Being static doesn’t make sense. Another good point, I'll fix this.


5. Is it intentional that Defensive Stance reduces your movement speed to what it probably is anyways? I can't really remember, I think I said that so your movement speed would be 20 until level 9, but it would be already. Probably an oversight. Will be fixed.


6. Incourable still has a reference to the Rage feature in it. I'm also pretty sure that Incourable isn't a real word. This has been fixed, and based off of feedback from reddit, this skill is probably too strong for this class anyways as a Juggernaut is unlikely to go down already, and will be dropped. If you have any ideas for a replacement skill, that would be great!


7. Regenerate provides infinite healing, thus making rests unnecessary. You should devise some way around this, like how the Champion only gets regeneration when below half HP. Also consider how this interacts with Health Sacrifice. Yeah, Regenerate needs a rework or a replacement. I got this idea from a game called The Surge, with an implant called Auto-Aid. Could possibly have it to where below a certain percent of HP like 20%, or a specific number like 30 or 40, then you start healing,. The idea is you don't start regenerating health until you're really low. The way I use it in the game is basically give myself a little wiggle room to be allowed to be hit once or twice, then back away to regenerate that little bit of health and go back in. It allows me to last a lot longer at lower health and not use a healing injection until things start getting hairy or until I feel like I might get one-shotted. With the Juggernaut, If I am in need of more than 30 hp, I can take a potion, tell the healer to heal me etc. If I get overwhelmed or underestimate my opponent while at such low health, it presents a bad situation.


8. Unstoppable Might doesn’t say that the ability score cap is raised, so the boost is likely to go wasted. That aside, it’s obviously way more powerful than the already-very-potent barbarian capstone and should probably be cut down.It would raise the cap, yes. As has been said on reddit, this skill would give me a whopping 75 extra health on level 20. While yes, it's a level 20 capstone ability, it does seem a teensy bit OTT, and actually isn't really that interesting. If you have any ideas for a new capstone ability, it would be great. I'm blanking right now.


9. Health Sacrifice should probably have a maximum based on level, instead of a static one. I also don’t see why this feature out of all healing features would ignore inability to regain HP.Yeah, I can agree this shouldn't ignore the inability to regain HP. Regarding how much hp it should heal, what would you suggest? You could give an amount of hit points equal to your level? Twice that or even three times that? Or would it be you could give an amount equal to your level + something?


10. Defence of 1000 Shields: How do you determine which side is behind you? Why go through the effort of randomly choosing a square instead of letting them choose? What does “blocking opportunity attacks” mean in this context?Yeah, this one was just written badly. Basically, the ally teleports into your circle, doesn't really matter where, its a ****in' circle XD The ally should pick. Blocking opportunity attacks means if they're next to an enemy when they teleport, the enemy can't have an opportunity attack against them.







But, assuming 18 Strength, you’re going to deal a whopping 1d8+4 damage per round, possibly with disadvantage. If you specialize in doing damage by getting Heavy Handed and Spiked Shield, this will be raised to… 1d8+7, average 11. At the same level, a fighter does about 24 damage per round, without the use of Action Surge, Improved Critical or Combat Superiority.Actually, if you aren't a Ravager, it's 1d4+4 :P I think that typo proves the point better though lol
The damage is going to be reworked. I agree,the class doesn't do enough damage, but I need to be careful to make sure it doesn't do too much damage and be too hard to take down, you know what I mean?


Ok, so your offensive abilities are a serious dud. Any opponent with any sense will realize this and just walk around you. So what are your alternatives? You can use Taunt to force people to attack you… for three rounds per long rest. You can physically interpose yourself in front of your allies… but your movement speed is 20 feet, so good luck with that. You can grapple people and force them to fight you… but you only have one attack per round, so you better hope it succeeds.I'm thinking to just remove the speed penalty, maybe give them something like the Sentinel feat at a certain level where if you hit someone with an opportunity attack, their movement becomes 0? Or maybe give the Juggernaut a bonus action to grapple an enemy? Possibly knock them prone?


The Defender specialization admittedly gives you some worthwhile stuff to do. Your allies are almost untouchable while you’re standing next to them, which is great, but since you’re so immobile you’re unlikely to zip across the battlefield aiding your allies left and right. So either you’re going to stand on the frontline, in which case the protection granted is rather minor because your AC is probably only 2-4 points higher than theirs. Or you become the duly appointed wizard bodyguard, granting the wizard a massive defensive boost in return for giving up what little damage output you had. Health Sacrifice is also pretty nice, but is being a heal bot really what this class should be about?I don't really think that Health Sacrifice means being a heal bot, or is what that skill should be used for. What I imagined it being used for was for bringing an ally thats at low HP up, or an unconscious ally back to life. I made it an action, and you can only do it to one person per turn because I didn't want you to just Dash, run to every ally thats unconscious and be able to pick them all up, giving them each just a couple points. I think thats a bit ludicrous, no one would ever die.


I think this class would benefit tremendously from a more rounded structure. If I was you, I would remove either Defensive Stance or Careful Attack (their effects are comparable, and they can’t be used in tandem anyways), and give the following feature instead.

Mighty Physique
At 5th level, you learn to put your mighty strength to use for offense and control. You gain proficiency in Athletics. If you are already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for Athletics checks. Additionally, your melee weapon attacks deal an extra die of damage.
(The name and flavor text can be changed of course. I took this from a different creation of mine.)

This would be a good ability because:
- It raises the juggernaut’s damage to be relevant, without being as high as the fighter. (This is about a 50% damage boost while Extra Attack is double.)
- It increases your ability to grapple, which is an important skill for a tank.

Then, at 11th level, I would put this. (Probably move what’s currently there to a different level.)

Limited Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. However, one of these attacks is made at a -5 penalty. You can choose whether the penalty is applied to the first or second attack.

It’s a bit strange, but I’ve used it before and I think it’s appropriate here. Once again it raises your damage while staying well behind on the fighter. And the reason I don’t just give another damage die is because this extra attack gives you more opportunities to shove and grapple, as a good tank should.

Those two changes will make it much more practical, while making its core design similar enough to other martials to be able to make some decent balance comparisons. If you add these (or something comparable) and address my other points, this class should be very close to playable.


Definitely will put Mighty Physique in, I feel like the class needs it. As for Limited Extra attack, I don't know how I feel about it. How would the -5 translate in shoves and grapples? Lower DCs or would it mean the enemy gets advantage on their save, or just a +5 on their save?


I hope you enjoy a good essay, because I've never spent that much time writing a class critique.
I did enjoy this. Thanks for responding!

Composer99
2017-11-22, 11:26 PM
I have point-by-point remarks for each feature.

Colossal Shield
1. This feature seems very hard to adjudicate. I would dispense with the language comparing this shield to ordinary shields.

2. You don't seem to get much out of this shield unless you're wielding it with two hands, and if you do, you're seriously hurting your damage output. I'd consider giving the shield bash attack scaling damage, or allowing you to get the full benefit when you hold it in one hand. I mean, a d4 damage die for a shield that's ostensibly bigger than the stereotypical Roman scutum is pretty weaksauce.

3. The baseline 5e combat rules don't really have much to say about direction, because they don't assume the use of any sort of battlemap. As such, this feature's rule about having full cover in some specific direction when you plant the shield interacts very poorly with the rules.

4. I'd consider finding a way to simplify this feature. Perhaps you get the benefit of being behind half cover, in addition to the normal benefits of wielding a shield (so with the colossal shield you get +4 to AC and +2 to Dexterity saving throws)? In return, your movement is slowed. Not getting the Extra Attack feature - making this the only 'martial' class that doesn't - seems like fair enough payment for this kind of defensive benefit. I'd also say you don't need to use the shield two-handed.

Losing Your Shield
The text about how losing your special shield is fatal to your honour isn't backed up by any mechanical effect. What does it mean? Do you have some sort of penalty to social skill checks? Also, there's no Exhausted condition as such. This rule should be revised to reflect levels of exhaustion.

Taunt
As a formatting nitpick, this feature has higher-level header formatting than other class features.

1. I generally concur with Lalliman's remarks with respect to more clearly defining the mechanics of how this works. I don't have a problem with "hard taunt" abilities, so I don't think you necessarily need to alter the core of the feature; go with what you feel is best for the class concept you have in mind.

2. However, you don't get to use this feature enough at low levels. Once per long rest at 1st level for a class that, due to its lack of mobility and low damage, depends on this feature to keep enemies nearby (or at least targeting it), is just not enough. I'd consider allowing two uses per short or long rest right out of the gate, and maybe scale it a bit more slowly (cap at 4 times per rest, perhaps).

Juggernaut Fighting Style
Heavy Handed
Can't say I'm fond of this feature. Adding your proficiency bonus looks nice, but given the low damage die of your shield bash and the lack of extra attacks, I don't think it does much for your offence, although I guess it gives using a shield as your primary weapon . Also, what's the thematic justification for the extra damage at the end of a target's next turn when you score a critical hit?

Steadfast
You should probably generalise this feature such that it applies to any forced movement effect (other than teleporting), and not just "knock you back", both because of the poor interaction between direction and combat rules, and because it's pretty weak if you only get advantage to resist being pushed in one direction ("back").

Unyielding Strength
Formatting nitpick: consider rewording this feature so that it more closely matches typical 5e language. I'd also consider shifting sentences around so the bonus action ability you can do on your turn comes first, followed by the reaction ability. I'll echo Lalliman's remark about having the save DC function like a spell save DC, using your Strength.

Superior Health
This is fine.

Defence Specialisation Path
I'll look at each subclass option individually later. For the set of features as a whole, it could do with being renamed. "Defence Specialisation Path" just... doesn't quite have a thematic ring to it.

Defensive Stance
1. I'd consider not requiring your action, but rather a bonus action, to enter and exit this stance.

2. Since this is modeled as a defensive mirror image of the barbarian's rage, I'd consider adding in a limit to the number of times you can use this, recovering expended uses when you finish a long rest, and a time limit for the stance's duration (probably 1 minute). If you do so, you can get rid of the penalty to movement and the inability to use the Dash action.

Careful Attack
This feature is fine.

"Incourable"
This feature probably comes online a bit early (the barbarian gets it at 11th level, for instance), but given that the barbarian has way better offence than you do, it's probably okay.

I'd have no problem with this feature coming at 6th level if it's tied to Defensive Stance (that is, you have to be in a Defensive Stance to be able to use this feature).

I concur that this feature needs a name change.

Mjölnir Shield
This feature seems fine, although if you adjust the Colossal Shield feature this feature may require follow-on adjusting as well.

As this feature's name is obviously meant to be reminiscent of the hammer of Thor, it makes me wish it offered some means of throwing your shield and having it return to you.

Regenerate
Ridiculously overpowered with Defensive Stance written as is. Should be fine if you impose limits on how often you can use Defensive Stance as discussed above.


Indomitable Resistance
This feature seems fine. You might even be able to buff it a bit if you impose limits on how often you can use Defensive Stance.

Impenetrable
You need to more carefully define what 'attack you' means. Is it make a weapon attack targeting you? What about spells or abilities such as dragons' breath weapons?

I'd actually consider giving you a number of uses equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier per long rest. It's a 17th-level feature, so it's hardly overpowered considering the kind of toys other classes get to play with by this point (*coughcough9thlevelspellscoughcough*)

Unstoppable Might
Permanent advantage on any kind of saving throws is too much, especially in conjunction with what is one of the best capstones 5e has on offer presently (the barbarian capstone).

Defender Subclass
Protection
1. I'd consider renaming this feature, as it's otherwise similarly named to the Protection fighting style (which is what I was expecting it would be after seeing the name).

2. Stabilising a dying creature using a bonus action is fine.

3. The using your AC in place of another creatures' part of the feature needs re-wording. Maybe something along the lines of:

In addition, as long as you are wielding a shield, when a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to use your Armour Class in place of the target's.
(I'm sure with some tinkering, you could some up with something a bit clearer than that.)

Health Sacrifice
I'm not super sold on the ability to take yourself to 0 hit points, but I guess it fits with the sacrifice theme.

I've no idea what "Additionally, this feature ignores not being able to regain hit points" means. Perhaps you can clarify?

Defence of A Thousand Shields
1. This ability could stand to be re-fashioned given how poorly directional rules interact with the base combat rules. Maybe re-word it to something fleshed out from the following bullet points:

- Use your action to create an aura with a 20-foot radius (maybe expand it to 30 feet at a higher level?)
- Aura lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or end it early using a bonus action
- On the turn you activate the aura, creatures friendly to you can use their reactions to teleport to a space within the aura, and don't provoke opportunity attacks when they do so
- For the duration, creatures hostile to you starting their turns within the aura or entering the aura on their turns must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 2d8 damage (type to be determined). In addition, a creature that fails its saving throw is either unable to enter the aura, or is pushed out of the aura to the nearest unoccupied space.

2. The DC should scale as a spell save DC does (so 8 + the ability mod you think it should key off of + proficiency bonus); probably using either Strength or Constitution as the 'key ability'.

3. Why is the damage force damage?

4. I really don't like an automatic saving throw failure effect at 11th level. Maybe have saving throws be made for the duration with disadvantage starting at some level above 11th instead?


Ravager Subclass
Is there some alternate name this subclass could have? The name 'Ravager' in D&D, for anyone who remembers 3rd/3.5, brings up association with a prestige class that really has nothing to do with the Juggernaut's defensive fighting methods.

Reckless Attack
This feature is pretty underwhelming in the larger context of the Juggernaut class because you don't get Extra Attack unless you multiclass. It's not particularly thematic for the Juggernaut class, either.

It's fine as is, in and of itself.

Spiked Shield
This raises the question of why you only get shield spikes as a subclass feature instead of as something you can just pay to have added to your shield. Maybe consider some other "fluff" justification for the damage increase, if that's what you want this feature to be?

Bull Rush
1. Saving throw DCs should scale as spell save DCs, as discussed above.

2. I'd consider rewording the effect to something a bit like this:

As an action, you can move up to 15 feet. After finishing this extra movement, make a shield bash attack, as per your Colossal Shield feature, targeting a creature within 5 feet of you. This attack benefits from any features you possess that modify weapon attacks generally or shield bash attacks specifically. On a hit, deal bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 + your Strength modifier, and if the target is Huge or smaller, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If you score a critical hit, the target is also stunned until the end of your next turn on a failed save. You can use this feature three times, recovering expended uses after you finish a short or long rest.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-23, 02:38 AM
I'll be quoting the points that I feel I should respond to, as some of your points are things I'm tinkering with right now.



Losing Your Shield
The text about how losing your special shield is fatal to your honour isn't backed up by any mechanical effect. What does it mean? Do you have some sort of penalty to social skill checks? Also, there's no Exhausted condition as such. This rule should be revised to reflect levels of exhaustion.

Yes there is, I'll quote this and link it in the next post since this is my 10th. I probably should have, however, said what level of Exhaustion. I'm thinking either 1st or 2nd. Probably 1st, though. 2nd is real harsh.

Taunt


2. However, you don't get to use this feature enough at low levels. Once per long rest at 1st level for a class that, due to its lack of mobility and low damage, depends on this feature to keep enemies nearby (or at least targeting it), is just not enough. I'd consider allowing two uses per short or long rest right out of the gate, and maybe scale it a bit more slowly (cap at 4 times per rest, perhaps). This is a good idea, I'll add this in :)



Juggernaut Fighting Style
Heavy Handed
Can't say I'm fond of this feature. Adding your proficiency bonus looks nice, but given the low damage die of your shield bash and the lack of extra attacks, I don't think it does much for your offence, although I guess it gives using a shield as your primary weapon . Also, what's the thematic justification for the extra damage at the end of a target's next turn when you score a critical hit?I'm working on upping the shield's damage. I'm thinking 2d4 atm. I think the thematic justification pretty clear. You got a critical hit, so you gave them such a whallop that they'll be feeling it for a while, you know what I mean?


Steadfast
You should probably generalise this feature such that it applies to any forced movement effect (other than teleporting), and not just "knock you back", both because of the poor interaction between direction and combat rules, and because it's pretty weak if you only get advantage to resist being pushed in one direction ("back").Yeah, that makes sense. It should be rephrased.


Defensive Stance
1. I'd consider not requiring your action, but rather a bonus action, to enter and exit this stance.
Maybe. I've been fiddling with it a lot. It started being both a bonus and an action, then just an action to go in and out, then an action to go in and a bonus to go out. Maybe a bonus to go in and out is the right way to go? I'll need to think about it.

2. Since this is modeled as a defensive mirror image of the barbarian's rage, I'd consider adding in a limit to the number of times you can use this, recovering expended uses when you finish a long rest, and a time limit for the stance's duration (probably 1 minute). If you do so, you can get rid of the penalty to movement and the inability to use the Dash action.



Mjölnir Shield
As this feature's name is obviously meant to be reminiscent of the hammer of Thor, it makes me wish it offered some means of throwing your shield and having it return to you.
I might add this for a skill, I have some open spaces :P


I'd actually consider giving you a number of uses equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier per long rest. It's a 17th-level feature, so it's hardly overpowered considering the kind of toys other classes get to play with by this point (*coughcough9thlevelspellscoughcough*)

I dunno, at 20 Con that'd be 6 uses per long rest.

Thinking about it, there's Wish, Meteor Storm, Power Word Kill/Heal. This aint that bad:P

Defender Subclass

Protection
1. I'd consider renaming this feature, as it's otherwise similarly named to the Protection fighting style (which is what I was expecting it would be after seeing the name)

Fair point, need to fix that XD


2. The DC should scale as a spell save DC does (so 8 + the ability mod you think it should key off of + proficiency bonus); probably using either Strength or Constitution as the 'key ability'.I'll do that and have the 'key ability' be Constitution.


3. Why is the damage force damage? It makes the most sense. The only other element I really see it being would be Thunder, but that has to do more with sonic booms or things like that, more of a physical sound type of damage. Force(I feel, at least) is the most physical type of magic. Still not physical, but its almost palpable.


4. I really don't like an automatic saving throw failure effect at 11th level. Maybe have saving throws be made for the duration with disadvantage starting at some level above 11th instead? Dunno. I like the idea of at least one round of complete safety. Maybe I should rewrite it to it being impossible to get into for one round, instead of automatically failing their saving throw, but I think t's fine mechanically as it is.



Ravager Subclass
Is there some alternate name this subclass could have? The name 'Ravager' in D&D, for anyone who remembers 3rd/3.5, brings up association with a prestige class that really has nothing to do with the Juggernaut's defensive fighting methods. I don't think it matters that much, but if I find a better name, I can rename it.



Spiked Shield
This raises the question of why you only get shield spikes as a subclass feature instead of as something you can just pay to have added to your shield. Maybe consider some other "fluff" justification for the damage increase, if that's what you want this feature to be? Yeah, with the shield getting a buff to damage already, this skill will need to be changed. I'm thinking to put a "Throw your shield" skill here, but I do kinda want the defender to be able to do it too. I'm leaning more towards replacing this with throwing the shield, though.[/quote]


Bull Rush
1. Saving throw DCs should scale as spell save DCs, as discussed above.

2. I'd consider rewording the effect to something a bit like this:

As an action, you can move up to 15 feet. After finishing this extra movement, make a shield bash attack, as per your Colossal Shield feature, targeting a creature within 5 feet of you. This attack benefits from any features you possess that modify weapon attacks generally or shield bash attacks specifically. On a hit, deal bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 + your Strength modifier, and if the target is Huge or smaller, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If you score a critical hit, the target is also stunned until the end of your next turn on a failed save. You can use this feature three times, recovering expended uses after you finish a short or long rest. This will be changed as I'm removing the Colossal Shield mechanic, but I will swap out the current one for this.

Thanks for your feedback!

mkirshnikov
2017-11-23, 02:42 AM
Losing Your Shield
The text about how losing your special shield is fatal to your honour isn't backed up by any mechanical effect. What does it mean? Do you have some sort of penalty to social skill checks? Also, there's no Exhausted condition as such. This rule should be revised to reflect levels of exhaustion.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conditions#toc_16

Lalliman
2017-11-23, 03:02 AM
Actually, if you aren't a Ravager, it's 1d4+4 :P
I was thinking you wield an actual sword. Don't forget that that's an option!


I'm thinking to just remove the speed penalty, maybe give them something like the Sentinel feat at a certain level where if you hit someone with an opportunity attack, their movement becomes 0? Or maybe give the Juggernaut a bonus action to grapple an enemy? Possibly knock them prone?
I also just came to the realisation that Sentinel would greatly improve this class' functionality. Which is kind of borked in and of itself, that a feat would be borderline necessary for this class. Now, I think it's considered bad form to straight-up give the benefits of a feat as part of a class, but I would definitely recommend providing something to do with opportunity attacks. Maybe the ability to grapple or shove as an opportunity attack.

I also like the idea of a feature that causes hostile creatures to treat your melee reach as difficult terrain, making it harder to bypass you.


I don't really think that Health Sacrifice means being a heal bot, or is what that skill should be used for. What I imagined it being used for was for bringing an ally thats at low HP up, or an unconscious ally back to life. I made it an action, and you can only do it to one person per turn because I didn't want you to just Dash, run to every ally thats unconscious and be able to pick them all up, giving them each just a couple points. I think thats a bit ludicrous, no one would ever die.
I called it a heal bot simply because, as I said, you have do few other meaningful options. I imagine the heal would be used quite often because of how weak the offensive alternative is.


Definitely will put Mighty Physique in, I feel like the class needs it. As for Limited Extra attack, I don't know how I feel about it. How would the -5 translate in shoves and grapples? Lower DCs or would it mean the enemy gets advantage on their save, or just a +5 on their save?
I was thinking that yes it applies to shoves and grapples too. Saves are more awkward, but the juggernaut currently doesn't have any features that add a saving throw to a normal attack.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-23, 04:25 AM
I was thinking you wield an actual sword. Don't forget that that's an option!


I also just came to the realisation that Sentinel would greatly improve this class' functionality. Which is kind of borked in and of itself, that a feat would be borderline necessary for this class. Now, I think it's considered bad form to straight-up give the benefits of a feat as part of a class, but I would definitely recommend providing something to do with opportunity attacks. Maybe the ability to grapple or shove as an opportunity attack.

I also like the idea of a feature that causes hostile creatures to treat your melee reach as difficult terrain, making it harder to bypass you.

I was thinking that yes it applies to shoves and grapples too. Saves are more awkward, but the juggernaut currently doesn't have any features that add a saving throw to a normal attack.

Yeah, I'm forgetting that the Juggernaut can use actual weapons XD

Well, its not really giving them a free feat, its only part of it. Yeah, it's the big part of the feat, but it still isn't all of it :P Plus, the Knight subclass in Unearthed Arcana does the same thing with Hold the Line, and you do extra damage on top of that. What I'm thinking is putting the difficult terrain thing and 0 movement speed thing in the same skill.

Still don't really know how I feel about Limited Extra Attack. I'm probably going to change the damage die to 2d4 and add in a couple different offensive moves. Right now I need to focus on restructuring and redoing the Homebrewery page though, I'm getting so many suggestions XD

Sorry if my typing comes out hasted and incoherent at times, I've been typing so much just replying to people my hand is starting to hurt :P

mkirshnikov
2017-11-23, 06:15 AM
Right now I need to focus on restructuring and redoing the Homebrewery page though, I'm getting so many suggestions XD

Sorry if my typing comes out hasted and incoherent at times, I've been typing so much just replying to people my hand is starting to hurt :P

I've updated the Homebrewery page with advice from a bunch of feedback I've gotten. I'm still in need of feedback for the changes, and if anyone has ideas for levels 13, 14, 18 and 20 that would be outstanding!

JNAProductions
2017-11-23, 11:27 AM
Incredibly minor nitpick: you should have a dash instead of just leaving the Defensive Stances blank.

On to actual issues! :P

Shield Bond's first bullet point is a little ridiculous. You can drop your shield on someone and have them be pinned forever, since they can't move the shield. I'd simply say that the shield is treated as weighing twice as much or something, so you'd have to have phenomenal strength to move it, but it's not trapped forever.

I would make the Shield do 1d6 damage (Versatile 2d4). A one-handed 2d4 is just a touch too good.

Taunt should be available more frequently, but should also allow a save to avoid its effects.

Heavy-Handed both feels clunky and not very good.

Steadfast be good.

Unyielding Strength is good.

Superior Health... I'm a little iffy on. You're already a d12 class, so by level 15, you're a d16 class. It's not necessarily broken-but I'd want to see it playtested. See if these guys can ever die.

Mighty Physique feels fine.

Stockade is neat. It's basically Sentinel-lite. The one thing I would do, as a DM, is to allow the player to actually take Sentinel at level 4 (or 1, if VHuman) and swap it out for a different ASI or Feat at level 6, since there'd be a lot of overlap. But overall, feels good.

Defensive Stance felt too powerful, till I saw it was limited use. Should be okay.

Regenerate feels fine, since it only works in Defensive Stance.

Impenetrable I would make more akin to Uncanny Dodge. Usable at-will, and reduces damage by, say, level plus Con mod. As it is, I think it's a little too powerful, even at limited use, since you could survive, say, the moon falling on you.

Shelter needs a range on how far you can stabilize. I'd assume within your reach, but it's not stated. In addition, does them using your AC apply to ALL ATTACKS, or just one? I'd make it clear it applies to all attacks.

Health Sacrifice feels fine.

Defense Of 1,000 Shields needs a range limit on where allies can port in. As written, they can teleport in from 1,000 miles away. In addition, enemies should be able to enter turn one-maybe give them disadvantage on their save to get in turn one, but it should be possible.

Reckless Attack does NOT fit this class. It gains very little on a crit (even with Heavy Handed) and only has one attack. I'd replace with something else.

Shield Throw is fine.

Bull Rush feels fine.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-11-23, 04:45 PM
Um, is it just me, or is every single thing in here a combat-power feature? What's this class supposed to do in social situations, or when exploring/dungeoneering? It needs support for all three pillars, as a priority. Some ribbons would be nice too.

Levels 3 and 5 look pretty empty; I'd be looking to put new stuff in there.

The other big issue I have with this is that it only has major 'gimmick' (i.e. an ability that governs how you play the class). A well-designed class will usually have two or three (for example, the druid has Wildshape and Spellcasting. The rogue has Sneak Attack and Cunning Action. The paladin has Half-Spellcasting, Extra Attack and Divine Smite). Taunt on its own isn't enough to give the class form, in my view.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-23, 06:21 PM
Incredibly minor nitpick: you should have a dash instead of just leaving the Defensive Stances blank.

I'll fix it, when I updated the page, it was 3 AM and my hand was hurting from typing all day :P


Shield Bond's first bullet point is a little ridiculous. You can drop your shield on someone and have them be pinned forever, since they can't move the shield. I'd simply say that the shield is treated as weighing twice as much or something, so you'd have to have phenomenal strength to move it, but it's not trapped forever. Well if the shield was just twice as heavy, then it'd only be 12 pounds, so it really wouldn't do anything. I don't think it's that big of a deal because if you drop your shield you lose +2 to your AC and you can't use Heavy Handed, Defensive Stance or Shield Throw. (As of writing this, I've also made Shelter, Defense of 1000 Shields, and Defensive Stance require a shield to use as well. I don't think that changes the class all that much, but it makes the skills make more sense.) So I think the trade-off is pretty reasonable.


I would make the Shield do 1d6 damage (Versatile 2d4). A one-handed 2d4 is just a touch too good. I'm not so sure about it being too good, because the main problem that I'm trying to fix is that the class doesn't really do that much in combat other than stand and take hits, and occasionally do a tny amount of damage. I think 2d4 is fine for upping it's damage output, especially because you could also just use a 1d8 sword/morningstar/battleaxe etc . Juggernaut needs more offensive skills, as well.


Taunt should be available more frequently, but should also allow a save to avoid its effects. How many times per rest would you suggest? I think Taunt is good as it is, basically being lite Compelled Duel and the last skill for the Bear tree in Totem Warrior Barbarian.


Heavy-Handed both feels clunky and not very good. In what ways is it clunky and not very good? I think it helps bring up the Juggernaut's per turn damage potential and ups it a bunch on crits.


Impenetrable I would make more akin to Uncanny Dodge. Usable at-will, and reduces damage by, say, level plus Con mod. As it is, I think it's a little too powerful, even at limited use, since you could survive, say, the moon falling on you. Impenetrable does not allow you to survive literally anything, it's only a reaction in combat to an attack made against you. Impenetrable wouldn't save you from "Rocks fall, everyone dies" either :P I don't know about making it to be Uncanny Dodge, you'd only be able to take half damage instead of no damage, but you could use it forever instead of a maximum of 6 times (20 Con). I dunno how I feel about it yet, I'll have to think about it.


Shelter needs a range on how far you can stabilize. I'd assume within your reach, but it's not stated. In addition, does them using your AC apply to ALL ATTACKS, or just one? I'd make it clear it applies to all attacks. The skill has been clarified, thanks for letting me know!


Defense Of 1,000 Shields needs a range limit on where allies can port in. As written, they can teleport in from 1,000 miles away. In addition, enemies should be able to enter turn one-maybe give them disadvantage on their save to get in turn one, but it should be possible. Yeah, I'll change it to disadvantage. I can see that it shouldn't be impossible on turn one.


Reckless Attack does NOT fit this class. It gains very little on a crit (even with Heavy Handed) and only has one attack. I'd replace with something else. I don't see how it doesn't fit, I feel good about the skill.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-23, 08:35 PM
Um, is it just me, or is every single thing in here a combat-power feature? What's this class supposed to do in social situations, or when exploring/dungeoneering? It needs support for all three pillars, as a priority. I don't see why all three need to be supported. Fighter does have some social/exploring skills with, Knight, Samurai and Battlemaster, but Barbarian only has out-of-combat skills for Totem Warrior. I'll admit I haven't read up on other classes, but the Fighters and Barbarians don't really have that many out-of-combat skills.


Some ribbons would be nice too.
Sorry, I don't know what this means :/


Levels 3 and 5 look pretty empty; I'd be looking to put new stuff in there. I think they're fine, but if you have any suggestions I'd like to hear about them!

EDIT: I actually agree with you now on level 5, I'm changing it up a bit.


The other big issue I have with this is that it only has major 'gimmick' (i.e. an ability that governs how you play the class). A well-designed class will usually have two or three (for example, the druid has Wildshape and Spellcasting. The rogue has Sneak Attack and Cunning Action. The paladin has Half-Spellcasting, Extra Attack and Divine Smite). Taunt on its own isn't enough to give the class form, in my view.I don't think the class has only one gimmick. It has Taunt, and the Shield Bond is a big thing in the class. Theres a part dedicated to what happens if you lose a bonded shield.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-11-24, 03:03 AM
I don't see why all three need to be supported. Fighter does have some social/exploring skills with, Knight, Samurai and Battlemaster, but Barbarian only has out-of-combat skills for Totem Warrior. I'll admit I haven't read up on other classes, but the Fighters and Barbarians don't really have that many out-of-combat skills.

Well yes, the totem warrior and all the martial archetypes (Remarkable Athlete and Spellcasting count for this; you could even argue that Mindless Rage and Intimidating Presence have 'social' uses) have exploration/interaction features in their subclasses. That's a valid design strategy. Furthermore, the fighter gets extra ASIs that could be spent on non-combat feats and Rage does double duty: it gives you advantage on breaking down obstacles and performing athletic feats, and the damage resistance lets you run through traps and laugh at falling damage. Therefore it's useful in dungeoneering situations as well as combat.

And yes, the fighter and barbarian have the least support for the non-combat pillars out of all classes. I tend to see that as a drawback, personally.


Sorry, I don't know what this means :/

A ribbon is something that isn't necessarily supposed to be useful, but that reinforces the flavour of the class. Like putting a ribbon on a birthday present. Some classic examples would be Thieves' Cant and the <magic school> Savant abilities in the wizard subclasses.


I don't think the class has only one gimmick. It has Taunt, and the Shield Bond is a big thing in the class. Theres a part dedicated to what happens if you lose a bonded shield.

I thought you might say that. I disagree: functionally, the shield is just a weapon, when everyone in this game also has weapons (and shields). It doesn't materially change the way the class plays. Having consequences for losing a shield is cute, but it doesn't alter the underlying mechanics.

Consider the rogue. Sneak Attack basically forces you to fight as a flanker or a stealthy ambusher, since those are the best ways to guarantee it triggers. It's a well-designed gimmick. Cunning Action opens up all sorts of options for moving around the battlefield that other classes don't have - and enables you to slip around people's flanks or hide and attack in the same turn. Between the two of them, they give the rogue everything that makes it feel like a rogue.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-25, 01:05 AM
I've updated the class a bit, added an Extra Attack at level 5 and repurposed Unstoppable Might for level 18.

mkirshnikov
2017-11-25, 10:39 PM
Another update! Levels 13 and 14 have been filled with Resilience and Jotungrip, and Extra Attack has been changed to Limited Extra Attack.

Morto_Ra
2017-11-28, 05:43 PM
It doesn't materially change the way the class plays. Having consequences for losing a shield is cute, but it doesn't alter the underlying mechanics.

Consider the rogue. Sneak Attack basically forces you to fight as a flanker or a stealthy ambusher, since those are the best ways to guarantee it triggers. It's a well-designed gimmick. Cunning Action opens up all sorts of options for moving around the battlefield that other classes don't have - and enables you to slip around people's flanks or hide and attack in the same turn. Between the two of them, they give the rogue everything that makes it feel like a rogue.

See, I don't think the shield is what changes the focus here. The fact that you can already create difficult terrain and taunt enemies will absolutely effect your mindset when playing this character. The way I see it these abilities allow you to either hold a fantastic front line with your fellow martial classes, or be a personal bodyguard for your wimpy casters. Not to mention you can off heal some scratches. It may not effect your mode of attacking, but it does effect your positioning and interactions with the enemy. So it's not really the shield itself but the abilities you gain by holding the shield. As is I would say this class already feels like an impenetrable wall for your allies to hide behind. Now, if you're looking for extra complexity then this isn't really the class for it. I'm all for high skill ceilings but this class's ideal (as far as I can tell) is becoming one with a shield i.e. protecting allies and disrupting enemies; I think it does both of those things fairly well.


What's this class supposed to do in social situations, or when exploring/dungeoneering? It needs support for all three pillars, as a priority.
These don't seem to be something a Juggernaut would be good at. At most you're looking for something teamwork related, unless you want something like the ability to lift heavy objects, but then what's wrong with a STR check? Additionally, you can't really expect someone in full armor with a massive steel shield to be able to climb/swim/explore well at all. Ideally, everyone would always have something to do, but the whole point of having a party is to specialize. This class happens to specialize in keeping your attention and not letting you through.
That said it could probably do with an intimidation bonus for bullying I mean convincing the local guards.

mkirshnikov
2017-12-02, 01:41 AM
This thread is not dead! The class is currently going through a bunch of changes, mainly a third subclass! The next update is coming soon.

mkirshnikov
2017-12-02, 05:13 PM
I've updated the class! I've added a new 17th level ability, swapped out most of Ravagers abilities, made it to where limited Extra Attack doesn't give you another shield bash attack, only an extra shove or grapple attack, changed some of the text, mainly the subclass green boxes, Lastly, I've added a new subclass, Giantslayer!

Remember, constructive criticism and playtesting is always welcome!

Lalliman
2017-12-02, 05:36 PM
I don't have time for a comprehensive read right now, but the art for the Giantslayer (which is listed as 'unknown artist') is made by this guy (https://www.artstation.com/asjffdlasfj).

mkirshnikov
2017-12-02, 05:50 PM
I don't have time for a comprehensive read right now, but the art for the Giantslayer (which is listed as 'unknown artist') is made by this guy (https://www.artstation.com/asjffdlasfj).

Oh, thanks! I'll add the credit in now.

mkirshnikov
2018-01-09, 10:45 PM
I've made (Hopefully) the final big adjustments to the class! Check the link at the top of the thread to see.