Druids in AL

[HolyDraconus]

So I noticed a lack of comments on the change, but what's the feelings that, in AL, druids now MUST document their wildshape forms? Personally I think that hurts, since now you have limited options due to exposure. Wolves are about to be the best wildshape me thinks.

[The Shadowdove]

Wait, where's the rule change? Need to see it if it's a big change.

[Glorthindel]

I always thought it was a bit ludicrous that every Druid and Mage seemed to instinctively know about the existence and can perfectly replicate dinosaurs :smallsigh:

[Easy_Lee]

Since you can get around this with summon spells, it's not a huge problem. However, it's stupid. Why is it stupid? Let me explain.

Creatures you've seen in your background don't count - inconsistent.

Druids have no ability that lets them discern the stat block of a beast - there's no way to know what they should turn into.

There are beasts in the player's handbook that the druid apparently doesn't get automatically - players lose access to the PHB.

There are no rules for finding beasts during downtime - it's up to the DM whether the druid can actually find anything worth turning into.

You might say that not everything needs to be written down. I agree. But we do need rules for how to actually use abilities.

My suggestions:

Druids automatically identify the stat blocks of beasts they see.
Druids can spend downtime days communing with nature to learn of beasts, one day per beast CR. The druid either names the beasts or receives their stat blocks randomly.
There needs to be a better way for DMs to hand out beast stat blocks, as druids need these.

[HolyDraconus]

Since you can get around this with summon spells, it's not a huge problem. However, it's stupid. Why is it stupid? Let me explain.

Creatures you've seen in your background don't count - inconsistent.

Druids have no ability that lets them discern the stat block of a beast - there's no way to know what they should turn into.

There are beasts in the player's handbook that the druid apparently doesn't get automatically - players lose access to the PHB.

There are no rules for finding beasts during downtime - it's up to the DM whether the druid can actually find anything worth turning into.

You might say that not everything needs to be written down. I agree. But we do need rules for how to actually use abilities.

My suggestions:

Druids automatically identify the stat blocks of beasts they see.
Druids can spend downtime days communing with nature to learn of beasts, one day per beast CR. The druid either names the beasts or receives their stat blocks randomly.
There needs to be a better way for DMs to hand out beast stat blocks, as druids need these.


Pretty sure that summon spells fall under DM choice...

[Easy_Lee]

Pretty sure that summon spells fall under DM choice...

IIRC, there's a rule in AL that players may choose their summons but they have to come from an approved list.

Also, how many DMs have you met who, upon a player summoning creatures, actually enforce this? It's a pain in the ass to stop the game and lookup some creatures rather than letting the player use ones he already knows. Besides, that's WAY too much DM control, intended or not. Players should always be in control of their own actions and abilities.

No one has ever pulled this on me when I've used summon spells, whether they could or not. My actual experiences, to me, outweigh what I read on a forum.

[mephnick]

Also, how many DMs have you met who, upon a player summoning creatures, actually enforce this?

I do. I restrict the CR choice (cannot choose 8 creatures) and restrict the fey that show up needing to be beasts that would have lived in the area. If you're in the desert you don't get a black bear, etc.



It's a pain in the ass to stop the game and lookup some creatures rather than letting the player use ones he already knows.

That's why I tell players at session zero that if they're planning on summoning on a regular basis I expect them to have stat blocks printed out or memorized. No different than wildshape. No different than spells. Restricting the CR choices makes the list fairly easy to have on hand.


EDIT: Obviously not AL

[Easy_Lee]

I do. I restrict the CR choice (cannot choose 8 creatures) and restrict the fey that show up needing to be beasts that would have lived in the area. If you're in the desert you don't get a black bear, etc.



That's why I tell players at session zero that if they're planning on summoning on a regular basis I expect them to have stat blocks printed out or memorized. No different than wildshape. No different than spells. Restricting the CR choices makes the list fairly easy to have on hand.


EDIT: Obviously not AL

Right, and that's fine. AL games have different rules than the typical home game. And I think players choose their summons in AL - that's how my AL table works. They're just limited in terms of what they can summon.

The rest of my complaints still apply. For the limitation to work (needing to see a creature in AL before you can shift into it), there need to be ways for a druid player to actually go and see beasts and copy their stat blocks. Right now, summon creatures is the only way to do that. Everything else is DM fiat, which is bad - creates uncertainty for the player and extra work for the DM. AL DMs are overworked enough as is, given their large tables with loud and inconsistent players.

[KorvinStarmast]

My suggestions:

Druids automatically identify the stat blocks of beasts they see.
Druids can spend downtime days communing with nature to learn of beasts, one day per beast CR. The druid either names the beasts or receives their stat blocks randomly.
There needs to be a better way for DMs to hand out beast stat blocks, as druids need these.
Decent place to start. Have you forwarded you suggestions to WoTC for proposed inclusion in their AL guidance? Can't hurt.

[Easy_Lee]

Decent place to start. Have you forwarded you suggestions to WoTC for proposed inclusion in their AL guidance? Can't hurt.

I haven't, but that's a good idea.

[HolyDraconus]

Right, and that's fine. AL games have different rules than the typical home game. And I think players choose their summons in AL - that's how my AL table works. They're just limited in terms of what they can summon.

The rest of my complaints still apply. For the limitation to work (needing to see a creature in AL before you can shift into it), there need to be ways for a druid player to actually go and see beasts and copy their stat blocks. Right now, summon creatures is the only way to do that. Everything else is DM fiat, which is bad - creates uncertainty for the player and extra work for the DM. AL DMs are overworked enough as is, given their large tables with loud and inconsistent players.

Summons are DM fiat too. And some jerks may say that you need to see it before you can summon it

[SharkForce]

hmmm... wish i could track it down, but that specific list for AL is gone. i thought it was there as well, but it came up in the last megathread about summoning pixies being broken, and when i went looking for the rule i instead found a rule update that it wasn't around.

sadly, i can't find the link now, and "somewhere in the last megathread about summoning pixies being a problem" leaves a fairly large amount of searching to be done to track down the link again. particularly since i can't remember the actual subject, and i don't think the initial thread was specifically about summoning pixies.

[Easy_Lee]

hmmm... wish i could track it down, but that specific list for AL is gone. i thought it was there as well, but it came up in the last megathread about summoning pixies being broken, and when i went looking for the rule i instead found a rule update that it wasn't around.

sadly, i can't find the link now, and "somewhere in the last megathread about summoning pixies being a problem" leaves a fairly large amount of searching to be done to track down the link again. particularly since i can't remember the actual subject, and i don't think the initial thread was specifically about summoning pixies.

Well, that's troubling...

[SharkForce]

Well, that's troubling...

well, the FAQ has the rules text that replaces that table. the FAQ, located here (http://dndadventurersleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/DDAL-FAQ-v3.0.pdf), page 5, under "Can I use the Monster Manual", says:

"The Monster Manual is a legal rules source for the purpose of determining what is available for class features such as Wild Shape, Beast Companion, and various conjure spells. However, without specific campaign documentation, you may not use any of the Variant rules contained therein.
Additionally, as there are no specific stat blocks for “templated” creatures, such as half-dragons, these are not permitted for use."

still can't find the explicit statement that this is a replacement to the old list of allowed stuff, though... i even found this thread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468694-Official-List-of-AL-Legal-Creatures-for-Spells-Abilities/page3) on the ENworld forums that appears to at one point have discussed the change, but frustratingly it seems to be restored after some data was lost and while the thread acknowledges that the list is obsolete (found on the first page of the thread, i linked to the third because that's where it mentions the list is obsolete), any discussion that might have provided links to the page i'm thinking of appear to have been lost :(

so yeah, sad news... AL no longer tells you to use the list (which didn't have pixies on it). it also no longer says who decides what gets summoned any more though, as far as i can tell, which means that now you can have all of the fun of a 40 page argument over whether players should be allowed to decide what to summon or not at your very own AL table.

(actually, there's another AL rule that the DM can decide to incorporate RAI sage advice statements into their games, which means the DM can indeed just decide to hijack your summon spells and be totally within AL rules now, as far as i can tell. and this kinda of thing is why i don't subscribe to the "it couldn't hurt" philosophy when it comes to asking the devs questions, because if someone's AL DM decides to screw you over on your summoning spells for any reason, you damn well better believe it hurt for the player who just got cheated out of their limited character resources).

[Easy_Lee]

so yeah, sad news... AL no longer tells you to use the list (which didn't have pixies on it). it also no longer says who decides what gets summoned any more though, as far as i can tell, which means that now you can have all of the fun of a 40 page argument over whether players should be allowed to decide what to summon or not at your very own AL table.

(actually, there's another AL rule that the DM can decide to incorporate RAI sage advice statements into their games, which means the DM can indeed just decide to hijack your summon spells and be totally within AL rules now, as far as i can tell. and this kinda of thing is why i don't subscribe to the "it couldn't hurt" philosophy when it comes to asking the devs questions, because if someone's AL DM decides to screw you over on your summoning spells for any reason, you damn well better believe it hurt for the player who just got cheated out of their limited character resources).

That's a shame. Everyone here knows how I feel about it. The player ought to be in full control of his own actions. Whether summon spells are overpowered is out of the question. You do not balance overpowered abilities by giving control over them to the DM.

[HolyDraconus]

With that said though, what will happen to those druids now? With summons falling to maybe and forms must be documented, with the most common beasts being wolves, are we going to see a greater decline?

[SharkForce]

polymorph still doesn't require DM permission. but it will definitely hit their early game spike at level 2 pretty hard. then again, that spike was always pretty silly.

that said, it still seems pretty stupid. there should be at least a basic list that everyone has seen. you're a druid, i'm pretty sure you've seen an animal or two in your time.

[CircuitEngie]

The lists you are referring to were probably from back before Storm Kings Thunder (I think?), where the Monster Manual was not a resource a player could call upon. This meant that you only had the beasts and fey in the PHB and free DM monster list for the purposes of Wild shape, beast companions and summons. That's where a list of what was AL legal was useful.

I my AL experience, you still pick what you want to summon and I've yet to see a DM rule that a druid hasn't seen a shape to wild shape into. The new rules in XGE aren't binding to the DM in AL, heck, even sage advice (articles or tweets) isn't binding. Also, the rules for what is available and binding will typically occur at the start of a season, so the rules currently stand until roughly April of next year. If you are worried about it, just talk with the DM before starting the session/adventure, and remember: 'While this might be the first time you are meeting your DM, your character has lived in the world with their rules for their entire life.'

Note that the PHB summon spells make it DM call, you only choose the option for the number and CR (Conjure Fey is the exception) and the creatures show up.

[KorvinStarmast]

I always thought it was a bit ludicrous that every Druid and Mage seemed to instinctively know about the existence and can perfectly replicate dinosaurs :smallsigh: why wouldn't a druid know about dinosaurs if there are dinosaurs in the game world? Their whole specialty and domain is nature.

[Dalebert]

It's not a requirement to log what you've seen. It's a recommendation. You can always hope a DM will let you turn into something

I feel like druids would be the most knowledgeable people in the world when it comes to what beasts exist in the world. I would expect druids to form expeditions to explore areas like Chult (which is now quite famous in AL due to the death curse) and then druid school would have higher level druids summoning creatures so new druids could become familiar. I go by that assumption as a DM. I don't WANT the tedium of policing this. I don't WANT to check your logs and try to keep up with which creatures you've seen or not. If the CR is within your limit and the swim speed and fly speed issues are within your limits, you can turn into it as far as I'm concerned.

I really hate rules that make the game super swingy. If it's OP for Bob to turn into a quetzlecoatlus, it's just as OP for Jane to turn into one. Maybe Jane went out of her way to seek out adventures that would let her encounter one. Is it broken or isn't it? Either ban quetzlecoatlus for everyone or let anyone turn into one. This reqt is silly and tedious and would not be an issue in a world with druids and all the power they have for both summoning and safe travel.


IIRC, there's a rule in AL that players may choose their summons but they have to come from an approved list.

They did away with that limitation a while back. Now druids can turn into any beast they've seen that comes from an AL-legal source, and of course they wouldn't see one that's not AL-legal anyway. I think most DMs assume you've seen the beasts in the back of the PHB. Most of the time when I freak out about an AL rule, it ends up being moot as most AL DMs tend to be reasonable. If they're not, their games usually suck anyway and I quit those games and avoid that DM thereafter.

[Maxilian]

Can't you use the Research Downtime (As pointed out in Xanathar's page 132) to get information about beasts for widlshape?

[Dalebert]

Can't you use the Research Downtime (As pointed out in Xanathar's page 132) to get information about beasts for widlshape?

The downtime activities in XGE are not approved for AL.

[Jerrykhor]

Creatures you've seen in your background don't count - inconsistent.

Where is this stated? What a stupid rule. Is Wizard also not allowed to learn extra spells (as part of the background) if the campaign starts the PCs off at higher levels?

Druid circles are where druids learn their craft, and I'd think that their training involves learning about the many types of beasts in the world.

[Easy_Lee]

Druid circles are where druids learn their craft, and I'd think that their training involves learning about the many types of beasts in the world.

You would think. At a minimum, beasts in the PHB ought be fair game.

[KorvinStarmast]

The tables in XGTE is restrictive on the Druid for no good reason. I strongly condemn those tables as an AL resource, and hope it is simply a "guide" for people who can't figure this out for themselves. (IMO, it really isn't that hard, given that WoTC provides FREE for download at their web site a list of monsters by CR for easy reference. )

[The Shadowdove]

It does seem restrictive now that I see what you are talking about.

Thankfully there are loads of modules that you fight dire wolves, bears, spiders, and now dinosaurs in. Which is most of what people seem to be using as Wildshape.

[HolyDraconus]

It does seem restrictive now that I see what you are talking about.

Thankfully there are loads of modules that you fight dire wolves, bears, spiders, and now dinosaurs in. Which is most of what people seem to be using as Wildshape.

It still seems tedious tho. A druid having to research a new form makes about as much sense to me as a wizard that researched a spell in 5e. I dont see wizards documenting where they got their level up spells so why the hammer on druids?