[3.5] Survivable Character Options For A 2 Player Game?

[Nautilust]

Our group is down to 3 people at the moment, and one of us wants to run 3.5 for the other 2. I need suggestions on what classes we should take to have the highest survivability. We are 5th level.

[zlefin]

the simplest method is to have each player control 2 characters.

making sure to account for 2 chars being weaker than 4 in the CR of the encounters they face should also largely address the issue. adding gestalt can also enable the chars to do better with just 2.


back to the core question: generally speaking - one should be a druid, druids are the best at that kind of situation. I'd probably say crusader for the other player.

[heavyfuel]

Ask the DM about the possibility of Gestalt. It's literally made for these situations.

If the DM is dead set on not allowing Gestalt characters, your best bet is the Druid. Good HD, saves, and AC; has pet for tanking; healing spells (often used in the formation of wands); wild shape if you ever need melee

[Nautilust]

If he does allow Gestalt, could I do Cleric/Druid? And would I get the spells/day for both or just one?

Edit: A Cleric/Wizard who worships Vecna would be cool. But the question remains. Do you get both spells/day or just one?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You get spells/day for each class on a gestalt character, but you can still only cast on spell per round so it's not much better.


I'd say go for a Druid with a decent animal companion for one of the characters, and probably a Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus for the other. That way you have someone who can do melee and healing, and you have someone who can do Rogue skills and arcane spells. A properly built Ultimate Magus ends up losing only one level of Wizard casting, and use Able Learner to keep up your ranks in the Beguiler skills.

[Telonius]

Small groups are a problem that really needs to be addressed on both sides of the screen. Even more than usual, the DM needs to keep track of what the party is (and more importantly, isn't) capable of doing and design the encounters accordingly. Gestalt can help as a long-term solution; controlling multiple characters might be preferable if you're expecting to gain another player fairly soon.

In a smaller group, classes and features that focus as force multipliers (Bards, Marshals, Artificers to some extent) suffer a bit since there's less force to multiply. Classes that come with additional characters (Druid), and classes that focus on Summoning (Druid, Cleric, Wizard/Sorcerer, Necromancers in general) become relatively more valuable, since there's more of a need for more boots on the ground. Skill points become relatively more valuable, since the party as a whole has fewer points available.

[Demidos]

I'd say 2 characters per player tends to work well, allows you to scratch the itch of multiple different creative ideas, and is lower power than gestalt, which can be a little swingy due to the non-standard defenses/action economy/etc (e.g. you only get the actions of 2 characters, but with much more power that the DM has to challenge, so combat is incredibly dependent on initiative and yes/no immunities).

[Soranar]

Non gestalt option

beguiler
+
Druid

One handles everything arcane/social
The Druid does the rest

In gestalt

A factotum/ spell to power erudite
+
A archivist / Warblade

The feat wild cohort can help a lot

[Nautilust]

Something tells me that the GM is going to allow Gestalt before he allows 2 characters per player. He'll probably argue something along the lines that it's harder to roleplay 2 characters at once. But i'm waiting on an answer.

[skunk3]

Non-gestalt: cleric, druid

Gestalt: cleric with just about anything is good, also is druid, but you can also go for a fighter/ranger type for all those archery-related feats and be a veritable missile barrage and decimate enemies before they even get close, plus you'd be good in melee as well. There's also some PrC's like Order of the Bow initiate that are sweet too. Obviously if one of you guys go with a more magical build it'd probably make sense for the other to go with a more mundane build. Fighter/ranger could be quite powerful.

(assuming 40 total levels, in no particular order)

Rogue 8
Ranger 6
Fighter 6
Order of the Bow Initiate 10 (sword and fist)
Deepwood Sniper 10

You'd be a killer!

[theAui]

I vote for Druid / Malconvoker. Mainly to fix the good old action economy with lots of summons. Also they can work from level 1 to 20.

All Bases are covered:
Rogue: Can be substituted by poor celestial trapmonkeys and the knock spell.
Fighter: The druids Bear works just as well.
Wizard: The Malconvoker is one.
Cleric: The druid has divine spells.

Cheers

[Nautilust]

The GM just okayed Gestalting I think, he got kind of confused about what I was meaning and started referring to things like they are in AD&D where multi-classing was kind of similar but not really. So i'm going to make a Cleric/Wizard and suggest that the other player play like a Fighter/Ranger or Fighter/Rogue. I think that'll work.

Edit: Nope he meant multi-classing in 3.5 terms. So we can't Gestalt but we can multi-class. Which doesn't solve any problems.

Edit 2: Now i'm trying for multiple characters.

[Nautilust]

We can have multiple characters though. So I'm making a Necromancer, what would be the LA of a Skeleton or Zombie Fighter?

[Eldariel]

The GM just okayed Gestalting I think, he got kind of confused about what I was meaning and started referring to things like they are in AD&D where multi-classing was kind of similar but not really. So i'm going to make a Cleric/Wizard and suggest that the other player play like a Fighter/Ranger or Fighter/Rogue. I think that'll work.

Edit: Nope he meant multi-classing in 3.5 terms. So we can't Gestalt but we can multi-class. Which doesn't solve any problems.

Just be a Druid or a Cleric. They're the gods of picking up the slack. Suggest the other player does likewise. Cleric covers the control spells, buff spells, summons, etc. while Druid can melee, has a companion that can melee, has some great control and utility spells of their own, etc.

The smaller the party, the more you want of the scarce resource: spells. Ultimately, spells make encounters less dangerous/trivial. Spells make any negative status ailments go away. Spells reduce your risk of taking damage. Spells even cure your damage. So the more spells, the more survivable the party is. If you need someone to find traps, Cleric has a domain to that end (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cloisteredCleric) (with more caster than melee focus) seems quite good; does the Wizard/Rogue stuff while still using Wands of Lesser Vigor, Lesser Restoration, etc. Alternative, Druid's animal companion helps a lot particularly with a smaller party. And yeah, Druid/Cleric themself are great fighters.

Druid on this level has Wildshape, a competitive animal companion and very strong casting so all else being equal, need someone to carry the team, Druid's your bet. One of the big advantages to the class is that Druids can cover all the weak points and that the animal companion can tank for free; if it dies, no penalty and you get a new one in 24 hours. In a small party, expendable frontline is one of the biggest ways to mitigate risks and animal companion provides that and level 5 happens to be one of Druid's stronger ones.

[Nautilust]

Thanks for the suggestion i'll talk to the other player and see what we want to do cause we can make multiple characters.

Edit: What's the LA of a skeleton or zombie though?

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the suggestion i'll talk to the other player and see what we want to do cause we can make multiple characters.

Edit: What's the LA of a skeleton or zombie though?

They have no LA as they're nonintelligent and thus not applicable for player use. A Cleric 5 can easily Animate Dead them as companions and frontliners though (definitely what I'd go for if I were a Cleric needing expendable muscle). If you wanted to play an undead Cleric, you could just be Necropolitan [Libris Mortis] though; costs some gold and a level but has no LA so it catches up quickly enough (should've done so by level 5).

[heavyfuel]

You should think about covering the 5 traditional roles, which is dead easy with a pair of Gestalt characters.

Arcane Caster
Divine Caster
Skill Monkey
Party Face
Melee/Tank

I suggest you have both characters be relatively tanky, unless you go Druid on one of them.

Party face skills can also be divided. A Sorcadin//Cloistered Cleric can have good diplomacy and bluff, but maybe the other character can get sense motive to alleviate some skill points from the other.

A very popular skill monkey class in Gestalt is the Factotum. They have synergy with any other class that benefits from intelligence (such as Warblade, Swashbuckler, Wizard, Archivist, so on) and a bunch of class features that don't eat up actions

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You should make four Bards and be a traveling band.

Everyone gets the feats Melodic Casting and Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Each should take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats. Three are buffing Bards, the fourth is a scary Bard. Everyone should consider the following alternate class features: Bardic Knack (only one or two need it), Healing Hymn, Spellbreaker Song (only one or two need it), and Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) .

Two of the buffing Bards will be nearly identical builds. The'll be Silverbrow Humans with Dragonfire Inspiration. One or both will dip a single level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level to get Draconic Heritage to switch their Dragonfire Inspiration to a different type of energy, such as sonic (Battle Dragon), and Acid or Electricity if the other one also dips Sorcerer. This allows them to each use a Wand of Wings of Cover, which per the Rules Compendium is still an immediate action to activate, so they can protect other party members from physically powerful opponents.

The third buffing Bard should be a Half-Elf, to use the Half-Elf Bard 1 racial substitution level in Races of Destiny. This one doesn't need Dragonfire Inspiration or a Sorcerer dip, but he's otherwise the same build as the other two buffing Bards.

All three buffing Bards need to learn the spell Inspirational Boost, all three need a Badge of Valor, all three need to trade their Suggestion song for Song of the Heart at 6th. All three should be good/exalted with at least 15 Int to take Words of Creation, it's a huge boost but it's not required. At 5th level, these three characters will buff everyone's attacks with +3 attack and damage, +3d6 sonic damage, and +3d6 fire or whatever was picked damage. This includes the Wild Cohorts' attacks and ranged attacks with bows. At 6th level those bonuses increase to +4 and +4d6, Words of Creation makes that +7 and +7d6, and at 8th level that increases to +5 and +5d6 without Words of Creation, or +9 and +9d6 with it.

All three buffing Bards should only have eight Bard levels total, they'll each have two wildcard levels to use before going into Sublime Chord. The Sorcerer dips are a wildcard level. They may want to get one or two Virtuoso levels at 9th and 10th, then take one or two sublime Chord and finish the other eight or nine Virtuoso levels afterward to advance their Sublime Chord spellcasting. Other good choices for wildcard levels include dipping one level in Dragon Devotee (+2 Cha, +1 natural armor), Mindbender (telepathy 100 ft., can't combine with Words of Creation as it requires a nongood alignment), and a Warblade or Crusader dip for choice maneuvers/stances. They'll want only one or two levels of Sublime Chord as early as possible (starting at 11th level), then take other prestige classes that advance their Sublime Chord spellcasting.

The scary Bard should be a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticHalfOrcs), say he visited the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it. He'll need to swap Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe in Dragon Magic. He'll need to take Martial Study for a Devoted Spirit maneuver to always have Intimidate as a class skill, get the Never Outnumbered skill trick, and take Imperious Command at some point. He'll be trading Suggestion for Haunting Melody at 6th level. If he can use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150 to take the Dreadful Wrath regional feat, he should definitely do so. He'll want armor with the Fearsome property in Drow of the Underdark (which is a more recent version than the one in MIC). He'll want to grab one level in both Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner whenever he can, he'll have only eight Bard levels total, one level in each of those, then two Sublime Chord levels, then take the other four levels in each of those other two prestige classes to advance his Sublime Chord spellcasting.


There you have it, a four-man band that should destroy anything that crosses their path. Four wild cohorts (magebred warbeast riding dogs with trip) can stand in front and take the brunt of the attacks. The buffing bards will make everyone do tons of damage on every hit. The scary bard should be able to debuff the opponents or even send them running, so their enemies will be severely disorganized for most of a given fight.

At 6th level they can all take Leadership and you can get four more Bards. Don't talk about taking Leadership or even mention the feat until you're about to hit 6th, otherwise the DM may change his mind about letting you each play two characters. In this case I'd get three more buffing Bards with Dragonfire Inspiration, so you're adding all five energy types to every attack (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic) on top of the Half-Elf Bard's bonuses. The fourth can be another scary Bard, since fear effects stack and scale really well. They can also each take Wild Cohort, so you'll have eight physically strong animal companions and eight archers/spellcasters.

[Nautilust]

I think the GM would kill us if we did that, but that actually sounds like a cool idea.

[Nautilust]

I'm thinking that I'm either going to go with a Cleric of Nerull and a Necromancer, or a Druid and a Ranger. I'm leaning more towards the Cleric and Necromancer the thought of flooding the battleground with death and undead makes me very happy.


Edit: Again, we cannot gestalt, but can play multiple characters.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Pick a theme and roll with it!

Take two PCs with the Dark Template for Hide in Plain Sight, and you now have a party that can make excellent use of Stealth. Seriously, with a bit of brains this can make for a fantastic and unconventional game/playstyle, avoiding many of the dangers of this kind of game by avoiding taking any damage in the first place! I suggest taking a Beguiler and a Factotum or something, and going full skill-monkey while you're at it!

Play summoners and necromancers! Micromanaging everything in a bigger game is a pain, but this is perfect!
I suggest a level 10 binder of Zceryll if you can. Otherwise Druid and say, Dread Necromancer or Cloistered Cleric will do.

Your GM will have to pay attention not to kill you all by accident, but by avoiding playstyles that would put you in too much direct (so no ubercharging barbarian) and always giving yourself an escape route, you can do great things anyway!

And two PCs usually makes for less of an alpha strike, so maybe try to focus on outlasting opponents or planning around them? Stuff like Warlock suddenly becomes more appealing here.

And of course, the Leadership feat is cool here.

[Nautilust]

Well, I talked to the other player and they don't want to play two different characters so I might not play two different characters myself.

Which would be more powerful a Cleric of Nerull or a Necromancer.?

Edit: OR how good is True Necromancer?

[heavyfuel]

Well, I talked to the other player and they don't want to play two different characters so I might not play two different characters myself.

Which would be more powerful a Cleric of Nerull or a Necromancer.?

Edit: OR how good is True Necromancer?

Cleric is Tier 1, Dread Necromancer is 5 (I think). Anyway, if power is what you want, you can't really go wrong with Tier 1 or Tier 2 casters

[Nautilust]

I wasn't talking about a Dread Necromancer. I meant either a Cleric of Nerull or a Wizard specializing in the Necromancy school.

[GrayDeath]

The Cleric is more powerful in general, the True necromancer has an easier way of getting force and action economy Multipliers early on.
Wizards are always powerful, but more DM dependant, as they need Access to Scrolls to max out their casting, while Clerics dont.

What Level area is the game going to cover?

And in case your GM declined it because it would be too complicated: Ask him if you can go for Gestalting if all Characters were limited to one class per side (many of the DM`s around here limit gestalting to a similar degree).

if he does, take one Active and one passive side with each character (say Cleric of nerull/Fighter on the civilised and Barbarian (ideally with ACF`s geared mo0re towards DR and such)/Sorcerer or Wizard on the other, or if ToB is in, switch thsoe to Crusader and Warblade for the passives, respectively.


Edit: @ heavyfuel: Dread Necro is T2 or 3,d epending on the Campaign/some variables, not 5.

[Nautilust]

The characters would be level 5.

I'll ask him that and see what he says.

[martixy]

I would advise against controlling 2 characters since low-player games present a great opportunity for amazing character and narrative driven games and roleplaying 2 distinct individuals at the same time is unfeasible.

I do however strongly suggest GESTALT.

It keeps the action economy low and very manageable for the DM, while providing a sense of herculean heroism for the PCs.

A 2 PC team lends itself to kinds of intimate storytelling you don't really get with larger groups.

[GrayDeath]

The characters would be level 5.

I'll ask him that and see what he says.


Do that.

I had to convince my last DM as well, but now that we`ve played for 3 evenings, he stated he really liked not having "Too specialized Idiot Characters, so...^^

Especially since martixy is correct as well, it can privide an intimate, intense type of gaming experience, with less "Must ftake Class/Build X or Die!! threat.

[Nautilust]

He told me to make whatever character I wanted to play and we'll go from there. So i think i wore him down.

So as far as necromancy specifically goes is Cleric or Wizard stronger and why?

Edit: Never mind, apparently i interpreted that wrong?

Edit 2: So no Gestalting, at the moment, i'll try to wear him down.

[GrayDeath]

Keep trying.

Or at least get us his reason for declining, in that case we can help wearing him down (if its not because Idsaid so, DM!1111!" ^^)


For pure "create and control masses of Undead, Dread necromancer or True Necromancer is best.
For "and take away other peoples Udnead, heal and be useful in Combat" Cleric.
And for Near Ultimate Cosmic Power (if you get your scrolls to ,learn them) AND good Undead Competence its Wizard.

[Nautilust]

What Tier is True Necromancer?

Edit: He doesn't want to allow Gestalting because He's the GM and he know's best basically.

[GrayDeath]

Thats the reddest of the red Flags for me.

GM`s have the right to determine what is played, after all they have to prepare it but once they refuse to expain why, they lose a LOT of credit in my view.

Maybe explain that to him, unless of course you see it differently.


@ Tier: as its a Prestige Class, this is difficult to determine. I would say that its overall either a weak +0 or a strong -1 Tier Prestige class, it gets better at one particular thing. If that is what you want to be ding, its good, but it is a semitheurge class that does not grant dual progression, so overall for everything but Udnead sstuff its not great.

It is still a full caster, so take that with a grain of salt. :smallcool:

[Nautilust]

Ok so i'm looking at that if i can talk our gm into atleast letting me be level 6 so i can get the prestige class. If not i'll be a wizard or cleric.

He feels that his way of building characters is just better and if argued every way I can. Now he's even talking about not running. So it's the way he's always done things and i think it makes him uncomfortable to try it.

[Nautilust]

It's either a Level 5 Cleric or Level 5 Wizard. But I can take a skeleton as a Familiar if I play Wizard and we'll work out the rules and stuff for it which is pretty cool. So I think i'm going to play a Wizard.

What schools should I ban?
What feats should I take?
What spells should I consider?

Edit: Cleric might actually be better at putting out an army of undead.

[Nautilust]

How about a Binder/Chameleon. That's a character I wanted to try out in our last group but it got denied.
How would I best arrange a character in this fashion.

Edit: I'd like to play True Necromancer but i don't want to wait 2 levels to start. I was thinking Wizard 3/Cleric 3 as entry

[heavyfuel]

I wasn't talking about a Dread Necromancer. I meant either a Cleric of Nerull or a Wizard specializing in the Necromancy school.

In this case, I say it depends on your OP level. I'd say that the Cleric wins at low OP, Wizard wins at mid OP, and high OP its pretty much a coin toss, with a DMM Cleric coming out a bit on top, but not really by much.



Edit: @ heavyfuel: Dread Necro is T2 or 3,d epending on the Campaign/some variables, not 5.

I've been afb since before my comment, and I'm not too familiar with the spell list, but I have some trouble believing it falls anywhere near the sorcerer (Tier 2), though I concur I might have been a tad too hard on it saying it was T5



Edit: He doesn't want to allow Gestalting because He's the GM and he know's best basically.

Im assuming you're being sarcastic? If yes, don't. If the DM is not comfortable with a couple of Gestalt players, it probably means he isn't super comfortable with DMing fo high-op groups.

Remember that D&D is co-op game, and you should pace yourself to the DM's pace if you intend for everyone to have fun.

Maybe playing a Druid isn't the best option if your DM isn't used to having one being played at his table. A Tier 1 class played at mid to high OP is pretty freaking strong. If you want someone survivable, maybe you should go for something along the lines of Crusader or Rouge/Shadowdancer (if they can't see you, they can't hit you)

[Nautilust]

I have all kinds of cool ideas, most of them don't come online till next level though and I hate waiting. SO i might be playing a DMM: Persist Cleric.

[Nautilust]

I could potentially wait for Thrallherd. Just two levels till Dominate.

[Eldariel]

Necromancer Cleric can do enough Wizard-stuff to be just fine, while being innately great at being a necromancer. I'd go Divine Magician [Complete Mage] to pick up Command Undead as a 2nd level spell. Others to taste - spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, Arcane Sight & Enervation are all excellent choices. I'd also go Cloistered Cleric so I could swing the skill monkey side of things as well. The last domain, Deathbound [Spell Compendium] feels obvious but with Command Undead, it might not even be necessary. You could pick up Spell domain [Spell Compendium] to really cement the arcane side of things into the party as well. This would make for a wonderful choice for Spontaneous Domain Casting [Player's Handbook II], which is way better than spontaneous inflict spells anyways (they're mostly useless) - and it's one of the best domains overall far as versatility goes.

Then you'd just learn the details of the wonderful Cleric spellbook (Darrin's post here highlights some gems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514702-good-cleric-spells&p=21691649&postcount=5#post21691649)), make use of the combined awesome of all these things while carrying around a horde of undead and the arcane/divine might of a whole kingdom. Divine Magician Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1329) is a good listing of the arcane spells you should consider pilfering from the arcane list, though I recommend Ray of Enfeeblement/Command Undead/Arcane Sight for the first 3 levels.

[Sam K]

Don't try to "wear someone down", it's a ****ty way to treat people that you hopefully like. They may say yes, but they will resent you for it. And resentful DMs is usually a bad thing ;) Explain your case, if they don't agree, try to see why they don't see things your way. If the DM isn't very familiar with the gestalt rules, they can seem really scary and easy to exploit. The sheer amount of numbers can make some people uncomfortable, especially if they are new to DMing.

What you really want to stay away from (again, based on the premise that you want a survivable character for a 2 player game) is something that relies on a single trick, because in a situation where that trick doesn't work you've effectively lost half of your party which can mean that an otherwise simple encounter just became overwhelming. Likewise, survivability becomes more important because being taken out of the fight costs you half your party. Don't be "the bow guy" or "the sneak (attack) guy" or "the healing guy": make sure you have a decent array of tricks you can use.

If you want a very survivable and flexible character for a game with few players, go with crusader 1/cloistered cleric 4, and take ruby knight vindicator from there. You get crusader (which is great at low levels and good at high levels) and cleric (which is good at high levels and amazing at high levels). You have to worship Wee Jas, but you seem to like the idea of necromancy so that should work well. You also get decent skill points: in the end you can cast, tank and do damage as a melee fighter.

Druid has been previously mentioned, as it's probably the single most flexible class in the game. Druid 20 is great pretty much no matter how you build it. Factotum is a highly competent jack-of-all-trades, but it doesn't have as much raw power as a druid. Wizard is always flexible, and starting at level 5 means you're past the weakest point (wizard is pretty high risk at the first few levels, when they have very few spells available). But while wizard has possibly the greatest selection of tools available, playing one to the max requires being willing to learn all those tools. The crusader/cleric or druid can slack off a bit in easy encounters and just melee through it, but with d4 hp, low saves and having to pick your spells in advance, the wizard needs to bring the A-game to most fights. Especially in a 2 player game, where there are fewer friends around to distract the dirty masses while the wizard brings down ultimate arcane destruction on them.

[Nautilust]

After sleeping on it I am either going to play a Necromancer Cleric or I am going to play an Unseen Seer.
I could use some help building my character from here.

Edit: As a Necromancer Cleric I would go Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric as has been suggested. Have the Knowledge and either Deathbound or Spell Domains. This limits me to Light armor but that's OK.

What feats should I take?
What Items should I buy? I have Max Gold, which for 5th level I think is 9000.

[Nautilust]

My GM and I talked and we agreed that a Telepath might be cool. I can dominate creatures in a couple levels to fight for me and he okayed me buying a few hirlings till then.

SO I am playing eithar a Human or Kalashtar Telepath and that's my final decision. I'll be going into Thrallherd soon.

What feats should I take?
I have an idea of the items i should buy cause i've played a telepath before. But I'm open to suggestions.
It's 32 point-buy, how should I arrange my Attributes?
I have an idea of the powers I should take. But I'm open to suggestions.
Help me optimize this character and I'd much appreciate it. Happy Thanksgiving!

[FocusWolf413]

Two player games are perfect for fun, wacky builds. Two player games shouldn't be about the normal hack and slash. Find out what you two want to do and build complementary characters. You can't do everything, but you can do a few things well.