Similacra and Spellcasting

[GreatWyrmGold]

Can similacra cast spells? Do they know the spells the caster had prepared? Etc?

Some arguments on the subject:

Simulacrum doesn't require spellbook, except for rituals. It can't replenish spell slots anyway, so it doesn't matter it can't change spels. And presumably the wizard prepares whatever spells he wants the Simulacrum to have before creating it.

The Simulacrum is another creature and follow normal rules of Wizard (or anything duplicated) casting (It requires spellbook and prepare it previously or Spells Know). Yes, The Simulacrum has spell slots, but, can't prepare it without spellbook. The Simulacrum just can't regain expended spells slots.

No,
The Simulacrum is just another creature and It shares same statistic of the original, but, without equipaments [sic] (No Spellbook) and 1/2 hp. Absolutely nothing in the spell description says that The Simulacrum has previouly any prepared spells or active spells at the moment of casting.
The Simulacrum has 0 spells know [sic] (No Spellbook) and cannot prepare it. It must follow normal rules of Wizard Casting (It requires spell preparation and spellbook).
"It is just a new Wizard without a spellbook. It can't cast spells, only cantrips"

No, open the monster manual and see what "statistics" mean. Spells prepared are part of statistics.
The simulacrum doesn't need any piece of gear at all to function. The only thing it can't do is cast unprepared rituals.

I don't see how that detail is relevant. Since the spell uses the word "statistics", it means exactly that, and the word is described in detail in the monster manual. The only exceptions should be specified. For example, the spell specifies that the simulacrum has half the health. That's it. Everything else is the same. And a spellbook isn't required for actual spellcasting.
Spells like shapechange use the same language. The character copies the statistics, and then the specifications follow, like that he can't use lair/legendary actions, or can't retain certain senses unless the new form supports them.

Wait, are we arguing that stealing a wizard’s spellbook instantly prevents them from casting the spells they already have prepared? That thief Bonus-Action Slight of Hand is the ultimate wizard killer!

[UrielAwakened]

They can.

Lucas Tucson has no idea what he's talking about.

[Mellack]

The similacra should have the spells the wizard had prepared. It is a copy. If you read it the other way it is a useless broken spell for wizards. Since one way works and the other doesn't, I choose the reading that makes a functional spell.

[Lucas Tucson]

The similacra should have the spells the wizard had prepared. It is a copy. If you read it the other way it is a useless broken spell for wizards. Since one way works and the other doesn't, I choose the reading that makes a functional spell.

It's high funcional! The Caster can duplicate any creature as 7th spell! How isn't funcional? :smalleek:
It's another creature (Duplicate), It shares same statistic. If you duplicate a monster with the Spellcasting special trait (No spellbook required, you cast normally). If you duplicate a character's class, you must follow normal spellcasting rules (It requires spellbook, Time Preparation and Material components).
If The Spellcasters tries duplicate a wizard, It can't prepare spells without a spellbook.
Sorcerer or Bard duplicates cast spells normally without any restriction.

[Naanomi]

You are correct it cannot prepare spells without a spell book. However, it can (and does) *already have spells prepared* without a spellbook by virtue of being a copy of something that already had spells prepared, and nothing indicates it loses them

[Lucas Tucson]

You are correct it cannot prepare spells without a spell book. However, it can (and does) *already have spells prepared* without a spellbook by virtue of being a copy of something that already had spells prepared, and nothing indicates it looses them

Here is the point where we disagree.
Absolutaly nothing is spell description the Duplicate retains the original prepared spells, It's another creature that need a normal rules of wizard spellcasting. Wizard preparation is a class feature.
It isn't a copy, 1/2, No equipament, can't regain expended spells slots, can't heal. It just shares same statistics.

[SharkForce]

it use the original creature's statistics. spells currently prepared are part of a creature's statistics. therefore, the simulacrum has the prepared spells of the creature it copies.

more specifically: the monster manual defines "statistics" as follows: A monster's statistics, sometimes referred to as its stat block, provide the essential information you need to run the monster." (bolding not mine, that's in the original).

it then goes on to describe what goes into the statistics; size, type, alignment, armor class, etc. as we go down that list, we come to special traits, one of which is spellcasting, which includes the following text:

"The monster has a list of spells known or prepared from a specific class." (in this case, the bolding actually is mine).

so, like i said: a simulacrum has the prepared spells of the creature it copies, because those are part of its statistics, which the simulacrum uses.

[Lucas Tucson]

"provide the essential information you need to run the monster."

"The monster has a list of spells known or prepared from a specific class." (in this case, the bolding actually is mine).


EXACTLY! It isn't a monster duplicate. It's a character class duplicate and follow normal rules of spellcasting as wizard.

All you listed is about monster spellcasting.

[Naanomi]

They are a copy except as specified... losing spells prepared is not specified... owning a spellbook is not a requirement to have spells prepared, just to prepare them in the first place... a wizard whose spellbook is stolen can keep their spells prepared until they get it back (or get a new one), they don’t lose their spellcasting

[SharkForce]

EXACTLY! It isn't a monster duplicate. It's a character class duplicate and follow normal rules of spellcasting as wizard.

All you listed is about monster spellcasting.

MM page 4, "What is a monster?": "A monster is defined as any creature that can be interacted with and potentially fought and killed".

is a PC a creature? yes.

can it be interacted with and potentially fought and killed? yes.

therefore, a PC is a monster.

wanna try again?

[Lucas Tucson]

They are a copy except as specified... losing spells prepared is not specified...

It isn't a copy, it's a duplicate.

Losing spell prepared? Wrong, the Simulacrum can't prepare it without spellbook. You don't lose anything, the simulacrum has inability to prepare it.

[Lucas Tucson]

MM page 4, "What is a monster?": "A monster is defined as any creature that can be interacted with and potentially fought and killed".

is a PC a creature? yes.

can it be interacted with and potentially fought and killed? yes.

therefore, a PC is a monster.

wanna try again?

Fair enough. You are right!

[Mellack]

You can rule that it doesn't get to duplicate the prepared spells, but I see no reason to go that way. The prepared spells are part of the stats of the creature. The spell says use the stats except for certain specific differences. Since the prepared spells are not one of the listed changes, I see no reason they would not be exactly duplicated the same as any other stat.

[sir_argo]

Tucson is blatantly wrong on this.

If you presume that a simulacrum has NO prepared spells, then what if I make a simulacrum of the cleric in the party. That simulacrum will have no prepared spells, but can the simulacrum take a long rest, pray, and prepare his spells (clerics don't need spellbooks)?

If you answer yes, then you are suggesting that all other classes (those without spellbooks) can prepare their spells, but specifically simulacrums of wizards are conspicuously disadvantaged.

If you answer no, they cannot prepare spells either, then you are saying that no simulacrum can ever prepare spells. Which would make the restriction against regaining spell slots unnecessary. If you can't prepare spells, you can't cast spells. And if you can't cast spells, why would regaining spell slots even matter?


Simulacrums are an exact copy of their target except for 1/2 hp and no equipment. They have the same prepared spells and remaining spell slots of the original at the time of casting.

[Finger6842]

While a Wizard or other caster could copy themselves (thus transferring all spell slots/prepared spells), there is no reason why they should since the spells are a use and lose proposition. It's much better to use a ranged weapon DPS like Ranger or Warrior.

My Bard used the spell on an Archer Warrior and I made sure he stayed at range so he didn't get attacked. The added DPS was not spell based, the Sim didn't get destroyed out of hand and lasted a long time even with half HP. A much more efficient use of all those GP. I also had a Golem but didn't use him as a tank, again, it's inefficient due to the HP restoration requirements. Need to bend bars or lift gates, the dynamic duo is up to those tasks.

A caster Simulacrum is a special purpose use of the spell, functionally very expensive expendable spell slots. I don't know why there's any argument that spell slots and prepared spells don't transfer, the Sim would be of little use if they don't.

[SharkForce]

While a Wizard or other caster could copy themselves (thus transferring all spell slots/prepared spells), there is no reason why they should since the spells are a use and lose proposition. It's much better to use a ranged weapon DPS like Ranger or Warrior.

My Bard used the spell on an Archer Warrior and I made sure he stayed at range so he didn't get attacked. The added DPS was not spell based, the Sim didn't get destroyed out of hand and lasted a long time even with half HP. A much more efficient use of all those GP. I also had a Golem but didn't use him as a tank, again, it's inefficient due to the HP restoration requirements. Need to bend bars or lift gates, the dynamic duo is up to those tasks.

A caster Simulacrum is a special purpose use of the spell, functionally very expensive expendable spell slots. I don't know why there's any argument that spell slots and prepared spells don't transfer, the Sim would be of little use if they don't.

it really isn't (edit: always) better to copy a ranged DPR build.

a caster simulacrum mostly doubles all resources. a DPR simulacrum doubles actions, which is great, but doesn't double concentration slots or spell slots. and being able to drop twice as many high level spells is an insanely good ability.

both have their uses, and massively increasing your spell slots is a perfectly valid use. it can be expensive (until you get wish it costs gold, which may or may not be meaningul, and several hours, which is most likely always going to be meaningful, but even with wish it's costing a level 9 spell slot), but there are definitely times when better nova is more valuable than better sustained DPR, even if the sustained DPR is useful for a longer period of time.

[Finger6842]

it really isn't (edit: always) better to copy a ranged DPR build.

a caster simulacrum mostly doubles all resources. a DPR simulacrum doubles actions, which is great, but doesn't double concentration slots or spell slots. and being able to drop twice as many high level spells is an insanely good ability.

both have their uses, and massively increasing your spell slots is a perfectly valid use. it can be expensive (until you get wish it costs gold, which may or may not be meaningul, and several hours, which is most likely always going to be meaningful, but even with wish it's costing a level 9 spell slot), but there are definitely times when better nova is more valuable than better sustained DPR, even if the sustained DPR is useful for a longer period of time.

Agreed. I look at it from a cost efficiency standpoint because gold is a limiting factor in our campaigns so far. You are correct that it's not better from a sheer DPR stanpoint, just more efficient over the long run. Either way the argument that a Sim doesn't have spells to cast (which I do not agree with) is another reason for my opinion. For sure have the DM clarify his position before you cast the spell since his/her opinion is the only one that really matters.

[Sigreid]

Agreed. I look at it from a cost efficiency standpoint because gold is a limiting factor in our campaigns so far. You are correct that it's not better from a sheer DPR stanpoint, just more efficient over the long run. Either way the argument that a Sim doesn't have spells to cast (which I do not agree with) is another reason for my opinion. For sure have the DM clarify his position before you cast the spell since his/her opinion is the only one that really matters.

I realize not every table will view it this way, and AL specifically wrote a rule to stop it, but to me the best use of simulacrum on a full caster is a 17+ caster casts it normally on himself and then orders his sim to use wish to cast one of the enduring but unsafe versions of wish. Something like resistance to x damage. Granting himself and his party advantages like that isn't really too wild at that level and you're having the 33% burnout and damage happen to a caster that can never regain the slot to cast the spell again anyway. It's a good use of many thousands of gold and days to give yourself and your companions resistance to all damage types, as an example.

[Finger6842]

I realize not every table will view it this way, and AL specifically wrote a rule to stop it, but to me the best use of simulacrum on a full caster is a 17+ caster casts it normally on himself and then orders his sim to use wish to cast one of the enduring but unsafe versions of wish. Something like resistance to x damage. Granting himself and his party advantages like that isn't really too wild at that level and you're having the 33% burnout and damage happen to a caster that can never regain the slot to cast the spell again anyway. It's a good use of many thousands of gold and days to give yourself and your companions resistance to all damage types, as an example.

Our table (DM) rules any wish that fails has the effects returned to the source. So if a Sim I spawned (directly or indirectly) was to cast a wish and fail I would lose the ability to ever wish again. He also increases the percentage of fail per attempt, regardless of source. IE the Sim really is me and I am responsible for all his failures even if I copied another character. It's a bit complicated but he really gets mad at exploits and I don't blame him.

[Sigreid]

Our table (DM) rules any wish that fails has the effects returned to the source. So if a Sim I spawned (directly or indirectly) was to cast a wish and fail I would lose the ability to ever wish again. He also increases the percentage of fail per attempt, regardless of source. IE the Sim really is me and I am responsible for all his failures even if I copied another character. It's a bit complicated but he really gets mad at exploits and I don't blame him.

That's pretty close to what I understand the AL rule to be. I think it's a stretch to call it an exploit when you're working at that level. I see it as more of prepping for the campaign to move into epic levels where the characters are operating on a more and more godlike level.