What's the best you can do with the Kensai?

[Spacehamster]

With the Kensai having the possibility of d10 weapons at level 3, do you think this monk subclass is maybe a bit better for some type of multiclass? D10 + DEX attack plus always on wutever your martial die is + DEX bonus attack ain't shabby at all, curious which class would be best to MC into and at what monk level? Ranger, fighter and cleric comes to mind since they don't add MAD to the build.

Anyways any suggestions would be nice as I do like the subclass yet not 100% what to do with it. :) feel it is best served by some multi class action tho.

[Lodestar]

For the last two days, I've been thinking about running some kind of elf (probably Wood Elf) as a Fighter/Monk multiclass. Samurai/Kensai specifically, with a split of either Fighter 17/Monk 3 or Fighter 15/Monk 5. Either one seems like a pretty fun combo with a feat like Elven Accuracy.

Just thought I'd elaborate on the build a bit.

Pointbuy would probably give you something like this (Wood Elf in this case, but obviously goes for the other Dex+Wis races too)
Strength 8
Dexterity 17
Constitution 14
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 15
Charisma 10

My distaste for negative stats would end up with something more like this
Strength 10
Dexterity 17
Constitution 14
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 14
Charisma 10

First 5 levels go into Fighter. I like Dueling style a lot, but Great Weapon Fighting is also perfectly cool. Instead of taking the martial weapon and shield in the starting equipment, I'd instead take a longsword (your katana) and a scimitar (a wakizashi) to both simulate having a daisho and to have something to hold me over until later when I can finally use a longsword to the best of my ability. As someone who is constantly paranoid of Dex saves, I'd grab Resilient Dex at 4, holding off on Elven Accuracy until Fighter 6. Fighter 6 is tempting, but I'd go the next 3 levels into Monk to get into Kensei as quickly as possible. The (leather) armor is shed once the first level of monk comes, you unlock the secret of ki in the following level, and then you cap it off with finally getting to be a Kensei, along with having Deflect Missiles to simulate cutting arrows out of the air. As far as whether to stop at 3 or go to 5 levels of monk, it depends on whether you'd prefer higher health and a second action surge or 5 ki points, Stunning Strike and 1d6 Unarmed damage for when that matters. In either case, Fighting Spirit does a good enough job of allowing the PC to generate advantage to use with Elven Accuracy, and eventually trigger Rapid Strike if the game ever gets that far in.

I'd like to imagine the progression in-game being something like a swordsman seeking to master his sword style, eventually finding that he needs to shed excess and dig within himself to clear his mind and understand the moves of his enemy (unarmored defense), exceed his body's limits (manifesting ki, especially juicy if you take enough monk levels for stunning strike) and strike with deadly precision (finally, selecting Longsword as a Kensei weapon). Got a built-in story arc, man! Quintessential anime swordsman without straying super far into the realm of pure magic.

[Spacehamster]

For the last two days, I've been thinking about running some kind of elf (probably Wood Elf) as a Fighter/Monk multiclass. Samurai/Kensai specifically, with a split of either Fighter 17/Monk 3 or Fighter 15/Monk 5. Either one seems like a pretty fun combo with a feat like Elven Accuracy.

What do you think of regular plain human with these point buy stats after racials? 13/16/14/9/16/9 and mixing zealot barbarian with Kensai? :D heard good things about zealot barb and normal human can get away with that MC without suffering from it. :)

Edit: scrap that forgot that rage and attacking with DEX dun work. :-/

[BladeWing81]

With the Kensai having the possibility of d10 weapons at level 3, do you think this monk subclass is maybe a bit better for some type of multiclass? D10 + DEX attack plus always on wutever your martial die is + DEX bonus attack ain't shabby at all, curious which class would be best to MC into and at what monk level? Ranger, fighter and cleric comes to mind since they don't add MAD to the build.

Anyways any suggestions would be nice as I do like the subclass yet not 100% what to do with it. :) feel it is best served by some multi class action tho.

Something I came up with was Vhuman with defensive duelist to add +2 AC (+4 total once you get kensai with a rapier) as reaction then multi-class a fighter battlemaster to get duelist and superiority dice.

[Khrysaes]

What do you think of regular plain human with these point buy stats after racials? 13/16/14/9/16/9 and mixing zealot barbarian with Kensai? :D heard good things about zealot barb and normal human can get away with that MC without suffering from it. :)

Edit: scrap that forgot that rage and attacking with DEX dun work. :-/

I mean, you dont HAVE to attack with dex with monk weapons.

[Potato_Priest]

I'd probably do a sharpshooter "zen archer" build. It's not perfect offensively* , but monks have a great toolkit for ranged combat with their high mobility and projectile deflection.

*no archery fighting style :(

[PeteNutButter]

My character was going to be Barbarian 1/Kensei 8 then back to Barbarian to 4.

Using the tortle racial AC to keep dex at 13 and enable maxing str first for rage and reckless attack. That’s four attacks that all add +7 damage.

[MeeposFire]

I'd probably do a sharpshooter "zen archer" build. It's not perfect offensively* , but monks have a great toolkit for ranged combat with their high mobility and projectile deflection.

*no archery fighting style :(

Well the standard monk capstone is kind of meh so you could go fighter 1 and monk the rest of the way if you want.

[Lodestar]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

[Lombra]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

I've read about many who will want to use a greatclub, plus, a battleaxe monk is gonna look super cool.

[Spacehamster]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

A ghostwise halfling Kensai two handing a battleaxe would be pretty cool tbh, play him more as a barbarian who's anger makes him zen and focused instead of a frothing maniac. :)

[Khrysaes]

I've read about many who will want to use a greatclub, plus, a battleaxe monk is gonna look super cool.

somehow manae to get shalleilegh and that club will be even better on a monk.

[mephnick]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

I was always going to use kensai to run a Lizardfolk tribal predator who uses spears, javelins, axes and bites. In the UA the extra damage worked with thrown weapons, not sure about XA's. Good stealth, survival and perception for that "horror movie monster tracking down fools and eating them" vibe.

[Maxilian]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

My plan right now its a MC between Barbarian and Monk (not more than 4 lvls Monk), and only use my bite for melee attacks, use the weapon basically as a shield (Mostly as a Heirloom with some emotional value for the Lizardfolk) and the chance to use STR with a bow is nice :P

[Maxilian]

I was always going to use kensai to run a Lizardfolk tribal predator who uses spears, javelins, axes and bites. In the UA the extra damage worked with thrown weapons, not sure about XA's. Good stealth, survival and perception for that "horror movie monster tracking down fools and eating them" vibe.

If you mean the Kensei Shot, then it does work with thrown weapons (it just need to be a ranged attack with your Kensei weapon)

[CircuitEngie]

I see the kensei as either a flavorful 3 level dip for other classes (mainly fighters and rogues), or a class you will take for 17+ levels. Not a whole lot between 3 and 11+.

My current prototype Kensei are:
Halfling Kensei 20. Using longsword (probably a flametounge) and shortbow. I see it as a good use of a small character where your aren't missing the Heavy two-handed weapons since they don't work with the Kensei anyway.

Woodelf 4 Kensei/16 battlemaster fighter. Archer build to use the Kensei shot on 3 attacks, along with some defect missiles/slow fall and ki points for bonus action disengage and Dodge.

[Naanomi]

Best weapon: whip
Coolest weapon: blowgun

[Maxilian]

Best weapon: whip
Coolest weapon: blowgun

I don't think the Whip is that good, as you would like to use your bonus action to make the unarmed attack after attacking with your weapon (though it let you attack more than one target, and giving you the option to not get in 5 feets of the first target)

[mer.c]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

I was all ready to grab a Glaive, before I saw that it can't be a heavy weapon.

Actually that's kind of weird. Isn't the glaive one of the most iconic kensei-style monk weapons? Flavor reasons there, or possibly because they don't want Reach (or GWM) monks running around? Seems strange.

[Eric Diaz]

Instead of taking the martial weapon and shield in the starting equipment, I'd instead take a longsword (your katana) and a scimitar (a wakizashi) to both simulate having a daisho and to have something to hold me over until later when I can finally use a longsword to the best of my ability.

Is that a thing you can do with the Kensai (longsword+ scimitar)? Sounds cool.

I haven't got Xgte yet.

[Lodestar]

Is that a thing you can do with the Kensai (longsword+ scimitar)? Sounds cool.

I haven't got Xgte yet.
The build starts off going Fighter, so you'd just be using the starting equipment from there. That said, if you take at least a level of Fighter for TWF, then acquire a scimitar and longsword, you can emulate Niten Ichi-ryu with Dex once you get the Dual-Wielder feat on a Kensei.

[Maxilian]

I was all ready to grab a Glaive, before I saw that it can't be a heavy weapon.

Actually that's kind of weird. Isn't the glaive one of the most iconic kensei-style monk weapons? Flavor reasons there, or possibly because they don't want Reach (or GWM) monks running around? Seems strange.

Glaives? i though one of the most iconic weapons were lances, quarterstaff and the like.

[mer.c]

Is that a thing you can do with the Kensai (longsword+ scimitar)? Sounds cool.

I haven't got Xgte yet.

Yup. Kensei weapons count as monk weapons and can be any weapon that lacks the heavy and special properties (or a longbow). You choose two kensei weapons at 3rd level, but it needs to be one melee weapon and one ranged weapon. At 6th, 11th, and 17th level, you add get an additional weapon. At 6th level you could do longsword + scimitar if you wanted.

Trouble being if you're wielding two weapons, you'd have major action economy issues when you went to make your Martial Arts unarmed strike. True, the bonus attack from two-weapon fighting would compensate for that, but you wouldn't add your ASM to the damage without a dip. However, depending on your weapons' enhancement bonuses and your ability score, you may come out ahead anyways.

[sir_argo]

Actually that's kind of weird. Isn't the glaive one of the most iconic kensei-style monk weapons? Flavor reasons there, or possibly because they don't want Reach (or GWM) monks running around? Seems strange.

I'd say that a glaive is larger than a naginata (2m haft vs. 1.2m-2.4m). For 5e purposes, I'd just reskin a spear for a monk. They're always swinging that thing around one handed in the movies.

[mer.c]

I'd say that a glaive is larger than a naginata (2m haft vs. 1.2m-2.4m). For 5e purposes, I'd just reskin a spear for a monk. They're always swinging that thing around one handed in the movies.

Yeah, that's probably the way to go. And you'll almost always be making the attacks two-handed anyways, then going to single-hand grip to deliver your unarmed strike. (I think that's how it works, right?)

[Naanomi]

I don't think the Whip is that good, as you would like to use your bonus action to make the unarmed attack after attacking with your weapon (though it let you attack more than one target, and giving you the option to not get in 5 feets of the first target)
At high enough level that the base damage die from martial arts exceeds any weapon damage; a whip is the free option of reach (and benefits that provides for attacks or opportunity) at no significant cost

[lunaticfringe]

Crossbow Expert & Hand Crossbow Kensai Weapon. You get your bonus shot every turn w/out any resource or action economy shenanigans and it scales with Martial Arts damage.

+Criminal Background to be any gun toting karate guy from fiction (Spike, every other Keanu Reeves Character, etc..)

[Eric Diaz]

The build starts off going Fighter, so you'd just be using the starting equipment from there. That said, if you take at least a level of Fighter for TWF, then acquire a scimitar and longsword, you can emulate Niten Ichi-ryu with Dex once you get the Dual-Wielder feat on a Kensei.


Yup. Kensei weapons count as monk weapons and can be any weapon that lacks the heavy and special properties (or a longbow). You choose two kensei weapons at 3rd level, but it needs to be one melee weapon and one ranged weapon. At 6th, 11th, and 17th level, you add get an additional weapon. At 6th level you could do longsword + scimitar if you wanted.

Trouble being if you're wielding two weapons, you'd have major action economy issues when you went to make your Martial Arts unarmed strike. True, the bonus attack from two-weapon fighting would compensate for that, but you wouldn't add your ASM to the damage without a dip. However, depending on your weapons' enhancement bonuses and your ability score, you may come out ahead anyways.

I get it, thank you! It is mostly a flavor option then, you could potentially wield two longswords instead (or two scimitars if you don't have the feat), right? Or is there something in the kensai I'm missing?

EDIT: if I understand this right, the actual weapon you use wouldn't matter, eventually, since you'd apply Martial arts anyway.

[Lodestar]

Correct, by the time you get Kensei 11, you can just swing a Scimitar for 1d8+Dex mod anyway, so the aesthetic is preserved. If you plan to multiclass out of (or only intend to multiclass into) monk after 3-5 levels, then you could just take a feat and still dual-wield longswords just fine.

In the case of my Samurai/Kensai build, the scimitar is 1) A flavor option to have a daisho and 2) A melee weapon to use with Dex since I personally don't wanna wuss out on the concept and just grab a rapier. Once you've actually become a Kensei, the scimitar isn't necessary anymore outside of cheesy "You're not worthy of my true sword" moments, or if you like the flavor of longsword-shorter sword enough to spend a feat on it.

[Jethro]

How many folks here would run something other than the obvious Dex Longsword/Katana-wielder? Not that there's anything wrong with being a sword-dude, since it's what I would do too, but I am curious.

I was thinking running a Gloom Stalker 3/Kensei X archer. Lots of bonus action options to improve damage, huge bonus to initiative and eventually (granted VERY late) a +3 to an Oathbow for whopping damage output. Plus all the usual monk survivability. Figure start Kensei 8/ GS 3/ Kensei X.

Only issue is it relies on a specific item and it works much better as a GS/Scout mix...

[MxKit]

I actually like the Kensei subclass in and of itself, and think it benefits highly from dipping into other classes, but I think it works really well as a dip option itself, yeah!

I've been thinking of a few options myself, and what I've come up with, it seems like Kensei has the most synergy with Battle Master Fighter, Gloom Stalker Ranger, Assassin Rogue, and Scout Rogue. It doesn't actually matter which class you take more of (especially with Assassin, IMO...), you'll end up with something pretty strong.

BATTLE MASTER

If you are mainly going with Kensei, I'd actually say you could get away with just a 1-2 level dip into Fighter with no subclass, honestly. All you'd lose is Perfect Self and maybe your final ASI, and for that you'd gain a fighting style (go Dueling), Second Wind, and maybe an Action Surge every short or long rest (which is excellent).

But if you go 3 levels into Battle Master, you get 4 superiority dice, d8s, to use on three maneuvers, and that actually adds a lot to the Kensei build. Especially since a lot of those maneuvers don't even use up your bonus action or reaction. Keeping that in mind, I'd go for Disarming Attack, Distracting Strike, and Trip Attack, but Pushing Attack and Sweeping Action are good options too.

If you're mainly going with Battle Master, you'd do well taking 3 levels of Kensei, but you'd also benefit if you took 5 levels. You lose out on an ASI, your second Action Surge, and your third use of Indomitable by going that far into Kensei, but going up to Monk 5 raises your Martial Arts die to 1d6, which is nice for your unarmed strikes, and gets you 5 ki points to play with, and while you can't make use of Extra Attack you do get Stunning Strike added to your repertoire, which is nice.

Three levels of Kensei is also good, though, if you only want to lose out on 3 levels of Battle Master. You still lose your third extra attack, your final ASI, and your d12 superiority dice, but you'll pretty much always lose out on those if you ever multiclass out of Battle Master, and Kensei's not a bad choice for it; you get Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, +10 movement speed, 3 ki points to play with and a few good options to use it for including Flurry of Blows, Deflect Missiles, and access to Kensei Weapons (which I actually really like), Agile Parry, and a little extra damage to your ranged attacks. A little less raw power in exchange for more versatility, imo.

GLOOM STALKER

If you're going mainly Kensei, again, dip yourself three levels into Gloom Stalker. You'll get Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, and Primeval Awareness, which aren't awful but aren't what you're here for. Spellcasting is decent and definitely take advantage of it as well as you can without distracting from your main focus as a Kensei (you're gonna know three 1st-level Ranger spells; I'd go with Longstrider for even more manoeuvrability and Absorb Elements because it's amazing; you can take Hunter's Mark if you want, but you might actually get more utility out of Animal Friendship or Speak with Animals, since Hunter's Mark uses a bonus action when you cast it and another every time you switch targets and it uses Concentration, and you have better things you could be doing). Again, take Dueling as your fighting style...

But none of that's what you're really here for. You went all the way to level 3 for Gloom Stalker specifically; darkvision and invisibility to other creatures' darkvision is good (great, honestly, if you didn't already have darkvision!), but getting a bonus to your Initiative equal to your Wisdom modifier? Your walking speed increasing by 10 feet on the first turn of combat and making an additional weapon attack during that turn that does an extra 1d8 damage on a hit? If you have a base 30 walking speed, Longstrider active, 17 Kensei/3 Gloom Stalker, you are now moving 75 ft on your first turn in battle, with at least +3 to your Initiative (you should absolutely have at least a 16 in Wisdom by this point!), 65 ft every turn after that, 1d10+1d8+2+at least 4 (why would you not have an 18 in Dexterity by this point?)+3 if you Sharpen the Blade, plus either a Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike... That you'll have a hard time missing since you can use Unerring Accuracy once every turn... You'll be doing pretty damn good is what I'm saying.

Going mainly Gloom Stalker is also an amazing idea, because Gloom Stalker is an amazing subclass. Again, you could go either 3 levels or 5 levels in Kensei Monk, depending on how much you want that final ASI and how much you like having 5th level spells. Conjure Volley and Steel Wind Strike are pretty great, but level 5 in Kensei in this build gets you an Extra Attack, as well as the Stunning Strike, more ki points, 1d6 martial arts dice thing. This one I feel is more up to personal preference than anything. You'll get all your Gloom Stalker features either way.

ASSASSIN

This one is maybe the most complicated one, just because of an extra break point, and I'll try to keep it short. You'll have a pretty damn viable build whether you go Kensei 17/Assassin 3, Assassin 17/Kensei 3, or the odder one out, Kensei 12/Assassin 8...

Assassin 3 gets you proficiency with the poisoner's kit, which can be quite nice, and Assassinate, which get you that first-round critial hit with Sneak Attack advantage. That alone makes for a very nice little dip, and your Sneak Attack is 2d6 at that point, too, while still letting you get your Martial Arts die up to a d10!

Assassin 8 is a good break point for ASI's. Since you've come farther than 3, you'll get Uncanny Dodge (always nice to have), Evasion (excellent! maybe not a replacement for Diamond Soul, but nothing to sneeze at either), and your Sneak Attack will be 4d6 now, which is very nice. The highest your Martial Arts die will get is a d8 at this point, though, and you're losing out on 10 ft of speed instead of just 5. The trade-offs here really just depend on your taste, IMO.

And, of course, if your main class is Rogue... Well, honestly, Assassin is one of my least favorite Rogue subclasses in the mid-levels, so if I go past Assassin 8 it's because I'm trying to get all the way up to 17 for Death Strike. And admittedly, Death Strike is pretty damn good. You can use Flurry of Blows to finish them off if they're not already dead... But I'd go Kensei with this one to make a ranged weapon-based Rogue, personally. Kensei's Shot and Deflect Missiles pair pretty darn well, and your Sneak Attack and Assassin subclass features all work with ranged weapons. Get a surprise attack on the first turn of battle, use a bonus action first to activate Kensei Shot, do 1d8+9d6+1d4+your Dex mod in damage... double that... then potentially double that again, an average of 148 damage that first round of combat. If anyone closes with you, you can melee well enough with Flurry of Blows and a decent unarmed strike (and probably shortswords); if they try to fire back at you with weapons rather than magic, you can Deflect Missiles at them; if they use magic you have a bunch of Rogue qualities that might save your hide.

SCOUT

This seems like it would be a really fun one! AC is all well and good, but it's even better if an enemy can't even come close to touching you, right? Well! If you're a Kensei and take a 3 level dip into Scout Rogue, you get Skirmisher, which is honestly ridiculous. As a Level 17 Monk, you likely have a speed of 55 ft. Skirmisher means that when an enemy ends their turn within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to immediately move 25 feet away from them, without provoking any opportunity attacks. From anyone. Combine this with your Unarmored Defense, Disengage bonus action, Dodge bonus action, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike, Evasion, and Diamond Soul, enjoy not being affected by basically anything ever again. (Go ahead and add the Mobile feat to your build for even more fun!)

Now, if you're mainly going with Scout, the break point is a little different than usual. Go for 7 levels of Kensei. Just, trust me. With your Extra Attack you won't need Sudden Strike, and you're still going to want Evasion (and Stillness of Mind is legit great). Going more levels in Scout gets you Superior Mobility, which is just ludicrous, and Ambush Master, which gives you even better Initiative and a bunch of fun with advantage. By this point all your unarmed and armed attacks are basically magic, you have access to some damn nice weapons both melee and ranged, and you can dart in and out with ease and not have to worry too much about taking damage whatever distance you're at (or when you're trying to get away). Manoeuvrability is huge in this build, so seriously, again, take the Mobile feat if you can, but even more than manoeuvrability is just your ability to minimize damage from a bunch of sources in a bunch of ways.
I kind of really want to play that last one, actually. Hmmm...

[Rhaegar14]

I was all ready to grab a Glaive, before I saw that it can't be a heavy weapon.

Actually that's kind of weird. Isn't the glaive one of the most iconic kensei-style monk weapons? Flavor reasons there, or possibly because they don't want Reach (or GWM) monks running around? Seems strange.

The first UA version of the Kensei could use any weapon and people (rightfully) had issues with that from a balance standpoint. Heavy weapons' crazy damage potential with feats is balanced out by how much better Dexterity is than Strength (more common save, initiative, more skills, AC for some characters). Letting a character use the most damaging weapon type (heavy polearm with Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master) off 5e's god-stat was a bit strong.

[mer.c]

The first UA version of the Kensei could use any weapon and people (rightfully) had issues with that from a balance standpoint. Heavy weapons' crazy damage potential with feats is balanced out by how much better Dexterity is than Strength (more common save, initiative, more skills, AC for some characters). Letting a character use the most damaging weapon type (heavy polearm with Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master) off 5e's god-stat was a bit strong.

Yeah, I suspected it might be a “We dun ****ed up with GWM” concession.