Xanathor's Guide: Questions

[mage1337]

Hey Playgrounders,

I've been reading Xanathor's Guide over the Thanksgiving break and have some questions about the new rules and their (intentional?) interactions. I figured I would create a thread to ask my questions and see if others have similar queries they need answered. So here goes:

Arcane Archer - Incredibly weak?
Reading the Arcane Archer, I noticed the wording for Arcane Shot ONLY applies when making a "magic arrow" attack. Does this mean what I think it means - that the Arcane Archer cannot use this feature unless they use (and expend) a magic arrow? Doesn't this make them incredibly weak, RAW? Furthermore, doesn't this limitation combine poorly with their level 7 feature - which lets arrow attacks count as magical - but only for the purpose of overcoming DR (and hence not for the Arcane Shot feature)?

Oath of Conquest - Incredibly strong?
I've seen a lot of posts saying the Oath of Conquest is average at best. To my eyes it looks extremely OP. Specifically, it seems you can combine the +10 channel divinity attack bonus + power attack + smite for a huge DPS spike. Am I correct here? Furthermore, you get Armor of Agathys for shinanigens and an aura that literally freezes people who fail saves at higher levels. Isn't this class awesome?

Kensai - Just useless?
I was super excited for this class, but it seems terrible. The class even encourages you not to use it's weapons - since the +2 to AC feature seems about the strongest thing this class gets - and it requires attacking unarmed. Am I missing here? Is there some combination of abilities or classes that makes this class more useful (like Paladin Kensai?)

Thanks in advance!

(I accidentally posted this in 4E by mistake first - my apologies!)

[Millstone85]

Reading the Arcane Archer, I noticed the wording for Arcane Shot ONLY applies when making a "magic arrow" attack.That one is a plain error (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/927660837916983296), to be fixed in future printings.

[Eradis]

Are the Arcane Archer's magic arrow/arcane shot conjured arrows? I mean does it spend an ammunition? Some are disappearing after being fired.

[Foxhound438]

conquest: yes it is pretty strong, but guided strike as your CD is only once per short rest, meaning it's really not great with power attack. Sure, you can just about garuntee the hit, but after that one attack you're a basic paladin that's effectively short an ASI/feat because you aren't going to power attack with low hit chance. The stronger aspect is the crowd control from the fear effect.

Kensei: the +2 AC only requires you to make one unarmed strike to get the bonus, so after 5 you can more or less split the difference for about the same damage as another monk using a d8 with a quarterstaff, but you now get a +2 AC that they don't.

[AttilatheYeon]

conquest: yes it is pretty strong, but guided strike as your CD is only once per short rest, meaning it's really not great with power attack. Sure, you can just about garuntee the hit, but after that one attack you're a basic paladin that's effectively short an ASI/feat because you aren't going to power attack with low hit chance. The stronger aspect is the crowd control from the fear effect.

Kensei: the +2 AC only requires you to make one unarmed strike to get the bonus, so after 5 you can more or less split the difference for about the same damage as another monk using a d8 with a quarterstaff, but you now get a +2 AC that they don't.

Can't you also just use Martial Arts to get an unarmed strike in and still make 2 weapon attacks?

[Naanomi]

Can't you also just use Martial Arts to get an unarmed strike in and still make 2 weapon attacks?
I think perhaps that is the intent; but actually it specifically says ‘an attack with your attack action’; not a bonus action...

[Lombra]

Kensai is VERY strong. I can't see how you read it weak.

[Theodoxus]

We need a houserule on the forums... if you make a claim like "Kensai is VERY strong" without supporting documentation or at least supposition, that's essentially vaguebooking and is super annoying.

So, please - back up this concept that Kensai is VERY strong. I'm not seeing it. I don't think it's overly weak, but I wouldn't take it over, say, a wood elf longbow user going Open Hand...

[Foxhound438]

Kensai is VERY strong. I can't see how you read it weak.

well, no free teleportation, so it's worse than shadow already.

[Lombra]

well, no free teleportation, so it's worse than shadow already.

Tell me that you forgot to write this in blue, please :biggrin:

[Lombra]

We need a houserule on the forums... if you make a claim like "Kensai is VERY strong" without supporting documentation or at least supposition, that's essentially vaguebooking and is super annoying.

So, please - back up this concept that Kensai is VERY strong. I'm not seeing it. I don't think it's overly weak, but I wouldn't take it over, say, a wood elf longbow user going Open Hand...

It would take more time than I have to explain how every single feature of the kensai makes it VERY strong, so I'll just let you and the others re-read the subclass, I'm not here to change your opinions, just here to tell mine, and hope that mine makes you at least think about the topic in a different way.

[Eradis]

It would take more time than I have to explain how every single feature of the kensai makes it VERY strong, so I'll just let you and the others re-read the subclass, I'm not here to change your opinions, just here to tell mine, and hope that mine makes you at least think about the topic in a different way.

It would be nice to hear an argument or point or something about why you think the sub-class is so strong. Personally I have no idea as I'm not so much interested in the Monk class in general, but one of my player will be playing one soon. Your insight might help me help him choose what is best suited for him. Just "re-read" is no clear point. If someone read it and didn't find it to be any good, a second or third reading without pointer will rarely do the trick. So please, do enlighten us (I'm not implying sarcasm or passive-aggressive stuff here, I am genuinely curious about it).

[Foxhound438]

It would take more time than I have to explain how every single feature of the kensai makes it VERY strong, so I'll just let you and the others re-read the subclass, I'm not here to change your opinions, just here to tell mine, and hope that mine makes you at least think about the topic in a different way.

okay, I'll start by saying I don't have any problems with kensei- I'd even play one at some point. It's perfectly average, if you ask me, and it carries with it a flavor that is to some degree new to monks, and thus is perfectly fine as an option for anyone to take.

With that out of the way, I'll dissect everything and tell you why I believe it's only average, and not VERY strong as you say.

1) Path of the kensei: kensei weapons. You get good ranged weapons for the first time on a monk. With bonuses to movement and ranged defenses, I have to admit that archer monk looks pretty good, even better than sun soul as ranged monk options go... but it's 2 levels of being forced to use a light crossbow, and after that you're still worse than a battlemaster fighter. No archery style, no precision attack, no hand crossbow, so it's good but not by any means breaking records. As for melee weapons, you get to average an extra 1 damage over a spear or quarterstaff. Neat, but I'd rather pick up some utility at third level; even just like... a cantrip would do better than a 1 dpr increase.

2) Path: Agile parry. This is probably the best aspect of kensei. You get the effects of a shield, which is in many cases very strong. But is this really that strong when you still have to deal with a d8 hit die? if you go all in on boosting AC, you'll be stuck at a +2 to con all the way out to level 18, on a d8 hit die, which still makes you pretty squishy. It's no bladesong, basically: it doesn't put your AC at absurd levels, so it's only average.

3) Path: kensei's shot. It's nice, it gives you some damage out of your bonus action at range, but honestly it's less damage than a ranger gets from hunter's mark. Average, at best.

4) One with the Blade. Magic damage is good, but it's not amazing. All monks get that benefit at level 6 for unarmed strikes, so that half isn't really an improvement. Deft strike is probably more interesting, but in melee it's only ever worthwhile on a crit- where it really still isn't that impressive, it's an improvement but you're way behind divine smite- and at range it's at least a way to turn ki into damage flurry style, but it's still worse than a ranger's colossus slayer since it has a cost, and other monks would be getting more out of flurry of blows. Unimpressive at best, required to meet par with subclassless at worst.

5) Sharpen the blade. I'll give you this: it's really good where you need it. However, as far as I've seen most DM's are way ahead of you on this, as +x weapons are pretty easy to come by- at worst, you can just buy them and the process of getting it is handwaved. It is nice if you don't have that at your table, but there's still issues. First and foremost, your martial arts/flurry attacks don't actually get anything here, so at most you're getting +3 on 2 attacks per turn, and the rest are left hanging. Worse still is that if you want the +2AC from agile parry, you're now down to one attack per round that gets this benefit, and at that point it's pretty much a wizard of a non-bladesinging variety casting magic weapon on their own weapon. Really bad, that is. The 3 ki is at least less steep of a cost than a wizard's only 6th level slot, but it's still pretty costly when you consider that could have been 3 enemies stunned in the first round of combat. Much better on a sharpshooter monk at least, but you're at this point a few million miles behind a battlemaster fighter on that.

6) Unerring accuracy. It's a buff at least, but it's basically "advantage on one attack". Works better with sharpshooter, again, but a fighter can forego this "reroll one miss out of two attacks" nonsense and just make a third attack... for the past 6 levels.

7) this one's probably the least of my criticisms, but it's still problematic for the class: at level 17, the one thing that was supposed to be the flagship of this class- better weapons for better damage dice- just disappears. Since they said "no heavy, no special", the best you can do on a kensei weapon is a d10, which the base monk gets at 17th anyways.


ps. and no, I didn't "forget" to blue the statement about lacking teleportation making it worse than shadow. See all the criticisms of forcecage vs. martial characters being broken if you don't believe me.

[stoutstien]

Kensi is full flavor of flavor but lacks punch pardon the pun. Im working on a fix tonight that should bring it to par with open hand at least.
So far +2 AC always on when wielding..blah blah
Move capstone down and just have it IV up with monk lvs

[rbstr]

I think you're misguided if you think the Kensei isn't at least on par with Open Hand.
In general is feels like people just read the subclass entry and forget what the whole class is dishing up. This is particularly big in monk since the base class is where the real meat is anyway.
+2AC is great. Bow proficiency and extra damage with it is good. Ki-smite is pretty decent. +X weapon is OK. Rerolling a miss is really good. Open Hand's mid-level features aren't all that strong - The self-heal is decent but does take your whole action, Tranquility ends as soon as you try punching something.

Now, while it's strong enough, I get the disappointment in how the flavor of "Weapon master" turned into mechanics. I'm not particularly happy with the Kensei in that way. But making it stronger outright is not the way to deal with it.

[toapat]

Arcane Archer - Incredibly weak?

Oath of Conquest - Incredibly strong?

Kensai - Just useless?

1: Arcane Archer is too weak, yes.

2: Oath of Conquest looks powerful but it doesnt improve in any areas in which Paladin isnt already strong. Good + Good =! Great. to compare the Oath of Redemption is overpowered, although not nearly as busted in XGtE as it was in UA where it was beyond irrationally overpowered with no actual weakpoints because of its oath spells.

3: your reading Kensai as a monk and not as a Kensai, the subclass was redesigned around using a longbow specifically and focusing on using that in combat, which is why you can use Ki points to deal your martial art's dice with any monk weapon. its strongest as a single class as far as i understand.

[Foxhound438]

I think you're misguided if you think the Kensei isn't at least on par with Open Hand.
In general is feels like people just read the subclass entry and forget what the whole class is dishing up. This is particularly big in monk since the base class is where the real meat is anyway.
+2AC is great. Bow proficiency and extra damage with it is good. Ki-smite is pretty decent. +X weapon is OK. Rerolling a miss is really good. Open Hand's mid-level features aren't all that strong - The self-heal is decent but does take your whole action, Tranquility ends as soon as you try punching something.

Now, while it's strong enough, I get the disappointment in how the flavor of "Weapon master" turned into mechanics. I'm not particularly happy with the Kensei in that way. But making it stronger outright is not the way to deal with it.

Oh I definitely think it's at least on par with open hand- honestly I think open hand is weaker than 4 elements in mid levels (don't tell anyone I said that, I'll have torches and pitchforks outside my castle if word gets out that I don't agree with the status quo), but kensei's still not that impressive.