Pathfinder How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work? [Archive]

Ssalarn

2017-11-23, 04:22 PM

If you're trying to have it take the place of a druid or hunter, it's not going to be able to keep pace, but compared to a barbarian or most other full BAB classes it does well. It can put together a huge AC with solid secondary defenses (touch, flat-footed) and generally solid saves.
The big thing is that it's a training wheels class; pretty much anyone picking up a shifter is going to be able to build one that has solid combat and exploration abilities, early access to a few handy tricks, and few truly bad choices. Even combat-weak options like the Bat aspect specifically call themselves out as being ill-suited for combat so the player isn't surprised and knows to save it as a secondary or tertiary pick. While you can get more out of a druid, you'll need to know which forms to pick, what spells to memorize, and when to cast them, while all of that is largely pre-coded into the shifter. Your minor aspects are your temporary buff spells, your Defensive Instinct is your barkskin (and even mostly stacks with wild armor, which is handy for high AC builds), and wildshape is your big trick. Biggest problem there is that you get so few uses and by 5th level you want a combat form and an exploration form, so items like druid's vestments and feats like Shifter's Rush so you can save your combat transformations until the last possible second are basically mandatory.

Psyren

2017-11-24, 12:32 PM

So, by now everyone has more or less made up their minds about the shifter from Ultimate Wilderness

I haven't. You've been making threads about this class for the past several days but it's not even on the SRD yet - maybe give the folks who haven't bought the book a chance to read it before drawing a conclusion? And even if it IS underwhelming, archetypes exist and are a very easy way to patch a class after the fact (just look at the Lore Warden Fighter which debuted long before AWT.)

EisenKreutzer

2017-11-24, 12:33 PM

I haven't. You've been making threads about this class for the past several days but it's not even on the SRD yet - maybe give the folks who haven't bought the book a chance to read it before drawing a conclusion? And even if it IS underwhelming, archetypes exist and are a very easy way to patch a class after the fact (just look at the Lore Warden Fighter which debuted long before AWT.)

I’m sorry, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else. I haven’t been posting about the shifter at all before this post.

This post was actually intended to be a positive alternative to the negativity I have seen on the forum for a while now.

Psyren

2017-11-24, 12:47 PM

EisenKreutzer

2017-11-24, 12:54 PM

You're right, I apologize - the other threads were by other folks. But my point does stand - there is no meaningful consensus yet without the class actually being out there for folks to read without buying the book, so I don't think declaring there to be one after only a couple of days has merit.

Speaking personally, I like to buy a book after getting a better idea of its contents than is present in the marketing blurb, unless I know for a fact that the book has things I'm bound to use (like both Unchained and Occult Adventures did.) I'm not that interested in nature classes, so this is one that I'm happy to wait and see before buying.

Apology accepted. :)

I agree on all counts, actually. I bought the book yesterday, and was surprised at how much I enjoyed the content. I was a bit apprehensive after reading so much negativity, especially concerning the shifter, but I really enjoy the book as a whole.

I like the shifter too, thematically and mechanically, and while I understand the complaints I don’t have a problem with the class as printed.

Part of the reason for this thread was to try and get the people with a negative outlook to consider the positive elements of the shifter class, and to start some discussion on the merits of the shifter.

Psyren

2017-11-24, 12:59 PM

Part of the reason for this thread was to try and get the people with a negative outlook to consider the positive elements of the shifter class, and to start some discussion on the merits of the shifter.

I can all but guarantee you that very few folks with a negative outlook have actually read the class, nor will they until (and in some cases, after) it's been uploaded for them to do so freely. So I'd temper my expectations for this kind of discussion, is all I'm saying.

EisenKreutzer

2017-11-24, 01:01 PM

I can all but guarantee you that very few folks with a negative outlook have actually read the class, nor will they until (and in some cases, after) it's been uploaded for them to do so freely. So I'd temper my expectations for this kind of discussion, is all I'm saying.

You're probably right. Still, I'd hate for people to give the class a pass because they read so much negative stuff about it on a forum renowned for it's opinions and advice on the mechanics of Pathfinder and D&D. So it's worth it trying to generate some positivity.

Biguds

2017-11-24, 03:05 PM

Hello there.

I had to say that you guys are some of the few that I think that really think straight.

After a quick look in the book, I'd say the Shifter is a good class. Not overwhelming complex, effective even without items, and, as far I can tell, for an Adventure Path (DMed and played by the book), is pretty solid.

Cannot tell about the archetypes, for I did not read those yet.

(Bad english caused by cellphone autocorrect in portuguese)

Cyrocloud

2017-11-24, 06:11 PM

I felt the class was being presented as a martial master shape-shifting and we were going to get something akin to a wild shape ranger from 3.5, ideally one that prestiged into master of manyforms. This probably lead to my very bad kneejerk reaction to the class when I first read the scans.

After rereading after the book came out and readjusting my expectations it isn't as terrible as I thought. It really doesn't help that most classes that are in a similar niche seem to do the job better. It is just rough, and needs a lot of polish (it comes off to me as something that would be an alpha test of a concept and honestly not even ready for public testing).

I find the claw feature is pretty well done, though it could use some explanation on how it works with snake form.

The aspects are pretty neat, I feel like that changing the enhancement bonuses to something less common would help a lot (size maybe). Maybe a feat that would allow you to use some major aspect boons in a different form (maybe treating it as your shifter level -4) would help a lot too. Possibly giving some additional benefits for an option if you pick the same aspect twice (like a hybrid form turning into any related animal or gain the benefits of beast shape 3 or 4). A feat that allowed you to become any related animal in an aspect, and one that gave access to beast shape 3 and 4 would probably help the class along a lot.

Milo v3

2017-11-24, 06:46 PM

I was able to make a competitive shifter without much difficultly, though one of the feats I was using from the book to get good damage is about to be nerfed so that could change and I used full Automatic Bonus Progression.

The class will probably be fine at low-level, though it looks like it won't be able to keep up without knowing a decent amount of optimization after the mid-mid levels because of it's lack of iterative attacks.

ATHATH

2017-11-24, 10:59 PM

Well, a Shift dip can work- provided that you fall (and have the Oozemorph archetype).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/7efe35/why_oozemorph_shifter_shouldnt_be_overlooked/

If that's too cheesy for you, being a Kitsune might also work to remove the Oozemorph's drawback.

ngilop

2017-11-24, 11:06 PM

I’m sorry, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else. I haven’t been posting about the shifter at all before this post.

This post was actually intended to be a positive alternative to the negativity I have seen on the forum for a while now.

Compared to the hunter and druid, the two classes with features that most closely resembles the shifter the shifter underperforms.

Bolded for emphasis.. does not seem to be too positive, and in fact seems to be pretty negative so far in what you have posted.

plus the title of this thread implies that the shifter is inherently weak and the question lingers of; "can it be made to work?" sating the given that it is a broken -in the sense of truenamer- class and whether the possibility exists of making it even playable, let alone equal to an optimized druid..

which in all honesty.. comparing about 4/5 of the classes to an optimized druid renders them moot.

Milo v3

2017-11-24, 11:16 PM

which in all honesty.. comparing about 4/5 of the classes to an optimized druid renders them moot.
That's the whole point of the thread... to evalute the class on it's own merits rather than comparing it to druid.

Psyren

2017-11-25, 12:44 AM

That's the whole point of the thread... to evalute the class on it's own merits rather than comparing it to druid.

Which is fine, but as ngilop pointed out, the language in the OP seems to have concluded such an evaluation before we even started.

Cyrocloud

2017-11-25, 01:25 AM

That's the whole point of the thread... to evalute the class on it's own merits rather than comparing it to druid.

I don't think the issue so much is comparisons to druid as it is to midcasters that gain shape-shifting powers, and too a lesser extent a ported wild shape ranger.

Milo v3

2017-11-25, 01:39 AM

Which is fine, but as ngilop pointed out, the language in the OP seems to have concluded such an evaluation before we even started.
I saw it more as "Okay, we know it can't stack up against these things, but why don't we examine it on it's own merits?".

Psyren

2017-11-25, 01:47 AM

I saw it more as "Okay, we know it can't stack up against these things, but why don't we examine it on it's own merits?".

"We" don't know that. Maybe the 2-3 folks here who already bought the book think that, they may even be right in the end, but that belief is all we have right now.

Milo v3

2017-11-25, 01:51 AM

One issue I've seen in the very few times I've had the chance to use the Shifter is that I don't have many uses of Wild Shape, so I end up wanting to spend all my time in dinosaur form for pounce, strength increases, etc. but that means I can never really use my owl form for flight, especially when my giant owl form ends up having less natural attacks than my shifter has in his natural form (and the fact that giant owl for some reason doesn't let you use the shifter claw damage for it's claws).

Florian

2017-11-25, 02:48 AM

Hm... I think the Shifter has the positive side effect that you have to build that class very different from your usual weapon-based front-liners and avoid cookie-cutter feats and equipment.

For playing an AP, I think I´d go for a one-level dip into Ranger and get the Shapeshifting Hunter feat, maybe a race with solid SLA and work with the Nature Magic feat chain.

Milo v3

2017-11-25, 02:56 AM

When I was building some I was quite annoyed you can't really take any of the wild-shape feats from Ultimate Wilderness because of their massive wisdom requirements.

ATHATH

2017-11-25, 03:07 AM

Shapeshifting Hunter
Doesn't that feat specifically only stack Druid and Ranger levels?

Florian

2017-11-25, 03:30 AM

When I was building some I was quite annoyed you can't really take any of the wild-shape feats from Ultimate Wilderness because of their massive wisdom requirements.

Why? Huge Wis ain´t bad for that class, considering Defensive Instinct and Extended Aspects.

Doesn't that feat specifically only stack Druid and Ranger levels?

Shifter levels count as Druid levels for purpose of requirements and stacking, so that should not be a problem.

Milo v3

2017-11-25, 03:36 AM

Why? Huge Wis ain´t bad for that class, considering Defensive Instinct and Extended Aspects.
19 Wisdom is far too high for a class which needs four good ability scores.

Florian

2017-11-25, 05:07 AM

which needs four good ability scores.

Funny how that argument always comes up for each new martial class .... and proves not to be true.

Best thing you could prolly do (on lowish PB) is going for heavy armor prof. and save up for a wild full plate / O-Yoroi. Higher Dex is practically only needed if you go for a Mask of Giants and Combat Reflexes, while higher Wis opens up some of the rider-feats based on Nature Magic and some of the Brawler feats.

Milo v3

2017-11-25, 05:24 AM

Funny how that argument always comes up for each new martial class .... and proves not to be true.
My PC was 7th level, best I could get it's wisdom while still being competitive was 16.

Best thing you could prolly do (on lowish PB) is going for heavy armor prof. and save up for a wild full plate / O-Yoroi. Higher Dex is practically only needed if you go for a Mask of Giants and Combat Reflexes, while higher Wis opens up some of the rider-feats based on Nature Magic and some of the Brawler feats.
You realise you can't wear metal armour right? Having to get everything Wild and Dragonhide is going to be very very expensive.

Florian

2017-11-25, 12:36 PM

My PC was 7th level, best I could get it's wisdom while still being competitive was 16.

You realise you can't wear metal armour right? Having to get everything Wild and Dragonhide is going to be very very expensive.

You realize that we have three non-metal heavy armors before we go into special materials? So that´s pretty much a non-argument.

Cyrocloud

2017-11-25, 04:53 PM

Don't forget the shifters claw feat that requires the use of dex to hit to add level to damage, though that is supposed to be near fed soon

Ssalarn

2017-11-25, 04:56 PM

One issue I've seen in the very few times I've had the chance to use the Shifter is that I don't have many uses of Wild Shape.

That's probably my biggest issue as well. The class really wants to have an exploration form and a combat form by 5th level, but it doesn't really have enough uses for that to be plausible in a standard adventuring day until 12th level.

(and the fact that giant owl for some reason doesn't let you use the shifter claw damage for it's claws)

Why do you think this? That doesn't appear to be true.

You realize that we have three non-metal heavy armors before we go into special materials? So that´s pretty much a non-argument.

Was going to make the same observation. Stoneplate, stone lamellar, and then of course the various special materials all exist and are viable options for the shifter, even if they burn a feat on heavy armor proficiency (which they can generally pull off without giving much up since they have a very small number of "must have" feats). Plus shifter loves having tiger as an aspect, which lets you grab the necessary Dexterity bonuses without having to sink wealth into boosting a stat that won't be as helpful when you're not wildshaped. Builds that include options like tiger alongside a suit of non-metal wild heavy armor are going to have significant AC, generally much higher than standard armored martials. Adding heavy armor + 1/2 Wis + (+1 - +5 depending on level) + wild shape natural armor bonus + tiger aspect alongside full Dex bonus with no ASF while wild shaped are going to have very competitive ACs alongside much higher touch AC (and somewhat higher flat-footed) than you normally see on high AC builds outside of offensively weak monk builds or pre-buffed caster builds.

The biggest thing is that shifter is a high floor / low ceiling class. You don't have a ton of areas where you can optimize, but that also means you don't have many opportunities to make bad choices, so it's great for new and casual players, but kind of boring and overly simple for experienced players. It also holds up to scrutiny a lot better when compared to other full BAB classes like Barbarian or Fighter instead of when compared to Druids and Hunters, who are two of the stronger classes in PF.

Milo v3

2017-11-25, 06:06 PM

Why do you think this? That doesn't appear to be true.
Unlike bear, tiger, or wolverine, the Falcon and Owl forms specify that their claw attacks deal a specific damage die.

Ssalarn

2017-11-25, 06:17 PM

Unlike bear, tiger, or wolverine, the Falcon and Owl forms specify that there claw attacks deal a specific damage die.
Doesn't matter. The shifter's claws ability says "...her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability. If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of the shifter claws or the damage of the form's claws, whichever is greater."

The reason the owl aspect mentions getting a pair of 1d6 claw attacks is because that's actually an upgrade over the giant owl form it emulates, which normally only gets 1d4 talon attacks.

Peat

2017-11-26, 10:36 AM

Unless I've missed something from the conversations out there, comparisons with the Druid and Hunter will end as badly for the Shifter as comparisons with the Cleric and Warpriest for the Paladin (roughly speaking). One guy is toting spells, the other isn't, and we all know how that goes.

The better question would seem to be can the Shifter function as the party martial - or are players looking at it going to be gently led away and told all about the other options for wrecking people's faces with claws and without spells?

Florian

2017-11-26, 10:53 AM

That's probably my biggest issue as well. The class really wants to have an exploration form and a combat form by 5th level, but it doesn't really have enough uses for that to be plausible in a standard adventuring day until 12th level.

Personally, I feel that over-reliance on wild shape over claws/weapons will hurt any potential Shifter build. I´d rather start with a Changeling, Kitsune or Rageborn to get a solid natural attack routine going and save Cat form for later.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-26, 05:07 PM

The better question would seem to be can the Shifter function as the party martial - or are players looking at it going to be gently led away and told all about the other options for wrecking people's faces with claws and without spells?

It's not bad actually, so long as you grab Shifter's Edge and pick at least one animal aspect which boosts an ability score. Consider the following level 5 human shifter:

Str: 12 Dex: 19 Con: 14: Int: 12 Wis: 16 Cha: 7
Aspects: Tiger, Owl
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shifter's Edge, Weapon Focus (Claws), Slashing Grace (Claws)
Gear: +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1 Fitting Darkleaf Coth Spider-Silk Bodysuit

Putting your FCB into extra HP, you have 44 hit points, 22 AC and 24 CMD in your human form. You have two claw attacks, +12/+12 1d4+11 x2 assuming you use your Minor Aspect (Tiger) in every combat. That's an average of 13.5 damage per hit (ignoring crits).

You can shift into a dire tiger for 5 hours at a time gaining a bite attack, 40 foot speed, grab on your bite and claw attacks and Pounce. In this form your attacks are: Bite +9 2d6+4 x2 (13 avg), Claw x2 +10/+10 2d4+10 (15 avg).

Alternatively, you can shift into an Owl for a 60ft fly speed, 60ft Darkvision, a +2 to Stealth checks and two claw attacks, +12/+12 1d6+11 x2 (14.5 avg).

Those are some pretty good attack bonuses for your level, very good damage output and you've got some nifty abilities in the form of Flight, Pounce and Grab that you can take advantage of. You'll have a good Survival and Perception skills, and can use a trait to pick up an additional class skill to focus. Your damage will scale decently with gear and your Minor Aspect bonus as you level, and you can use feats to either further augment your damage or pick up additional combat utility.

I find the claw feature is pretty well done, though it could use some explanation on how it works with snake form.

You would get to substitute the damage of your claws with the natural attacks of the snake if they dealt higher damage. It looks like they forgot to include the natural attack of the Emperor Cobra in the book, it should be a 2d6 Bite, so the claw damage doesn't really come into play. This build is more about making attacks of opportunity with that powerful bite and your 10 foot reach.

Personally, I feel that over-reliance on wild shape over claws/weapons will hurt any potential Shifter build. I´d rather start with a Changeling, Kitsune or Rageborn to get a solid natural attack routine going and save Cat form for later.

Agreed, even with just two claws you'll have decent damage as a shifter. You may have issues at a higher levels, when you start competing against builds with large numbers of attacks or high burst potential but in most games you'd be fine even with minimal optimization. However, if your party members can handle all that tasks which require opposable thumbs there's no reason not stay in your beast form for hours at a time. 10 hours / day by level 6 isn't bad if you just want to be a combat beast.

Eldonauran

2017-11-27, 02:23 AM

As someone who values versatility and adaptability over sheer number power, I found the shifter wholly underwhelming, and to be entirely honest, completely boring. Some of the archetypes for the Shifter garnered my attention, namely the Rageshaper, but all-in-all, I can't see myself ever wanting to play one.

Now, personal opinions set aside, it is a fairly solid class. Easy to pick up and learn. Good for someone to whet their teeth on wildshape before taking it to the big leagues.

Anyway, the Water Dancer archetype for the monk was what caught my attention in that book. Serious good stuff there.

upho

2017-11-27, 08:15 PM

Disclaimer: I don't have the book, so I only know the general broad chassis and certain specifics derived from what people who (supposedly) do own the book have posted about the shifter. Meaning the following is just a few thoughts/ideas/reflections based on second hand info that may have been misread/misleading/incorrect. Please let me know if I'm missing something important! And like Psyren, I haven't actually made up my mind yet. Nor will I until I've actually read up on the class myself.

Without comparing it to other classes, can the shifter be made to perform well enough to be a valuable member of an optimized party?Of course, this wholly depends on what you mean by an "optimized party" and "valuable member". But if we limit this to a comparison to say an optimized Paizo T4 martial, I'd say "yes, during earlier levels, but probably not during later". But if we also limit the scope of this optimization to a single-target damage combat role, by simply tacking on an optimized martial natural attack package, I guess a shifter based build could be made sufficient also during mid levels in a sorta mid-op party. That is, I'm certain you could build a shifter a lot stronger than what is required from a PC in such a combat role to get the party through most Paizo APs run as written. It won't be as powerful or versatile in that combat role as say a barbarian or bloodrager using basically the same package can be, but it doesn't really have to.

And when it comes to out-of-combat and general utility tools, it appears the shifter's shape-changing abilities combined with some player creativity could be more than enough to supersede also typical Paizo AP expectations in certain areas, like exploration/scouting.

However, I also think the question will very rarely be relevant in practice. Meaning I believe people who play in games with optimized parties are unlikely to base their builds on the shifter, and are even less likely to play a single-classed one.

If you're trying to have it take the place of a druid or hunter, it's not going to be able to keep pace, but compared to a barbarian or most other full BAB classes it does well. It can put together a huge AC with solid secondary defenses (touch, flat-footed) and generally solid saves.Nitpick, but despite potentially great/solid passive defense numbers, I'm actually having a very hard time seeing how the shifter could do well in comparison to an optimized barbarian, even if we limit the comparison to just the specific "durable melee striker" combat role which the shifter seems to be going for. Meaning I'm not seeing anything the shifter can do which will have any significantly impact on the outcome of most fights which the barb cannot do, and typically also can do better. And that even includes doing those things in a very similar "shift-to-predator"-ish manner as the shifter does.

Though I guess and hope future archetypes/class options may at least bring equally effective but more unique alternative manners for the shifter to fulfill its combat role, letting it out of the frankly already over-crowded beast/wild shape style niche.

The big thing is that it's a training wheels class; pretty much anyone picking up a shifter is going to be able to build one that has solid combat and exploration abilities, early access to a few handy tricks, and few truly bad choices.This. Which is why I believe the question whether the shifter can keep up with an optimized party will rarely be relevant in practice. (Though this doesn't necessarily make it a bad or uninteresting question. And since my games are unlikely to see a PC shifter in play anyways, the hypothetical/TO nature of the question actually makes it, and the class itself, more interesting to me.)

Agreed, even with just two claws you'll have decent damage as a shifter. You may have issues at a higher levels, when you start competing against builds with large numbers of attacks or high burst potential but in most games you'd be fine even with minimal optimization.And it even seems you could be more than fine with with a bit more serious optimization. For example, you could add a slightly adapted version of mentioned "natural attack package" and probably keep up with at least weapon wielders also in higher levels. Meaning you'd dip a level of MoMS monk and later two levels of ragechemist vivisectionist alchemist, complemented with Feral Combat Training, Dragon Ferocity and two Vestigial Arm discoveries. With a race/item/feat/whatever offering another pair of claws, you can replace your unarmed strikes with claw attacks made with your second pair of arms, almost doubling your damage potential and the value of all claw-specific investments. And if you start as a catfolk, you could even pounce with those four claws without having to use your limited wild shape. And with the +6 alchemical bonus to Str, Power Attack, Horn of the Criosphinx and maybe a friendly poke with a wand of strong jaw, those pounces can result in some very serious shredding...

On top of that, you can of course also get additional natural attacks through items if needed, which I'd assume you'd be able to keep also when wild shaped into the more powerful available combat options. Being a dire tiger with huge tusks and a poisonous stinger actually sounds pretty bad-ass! :smalltongue:

Dunno if this can be made to work with a Dex based build and Shifter's Edge though, since I don't know whether the feat adds to or replaces Str damage.

Of course, a shifter using above natural attack package won't add any noteworthy new or unique mechanics to the concept AFAICT, and wouldn't have the combat versatility, action efficiency or ridiculous overkill capacity of an equally optimized build based on the barb or (especially) bloodrager.

Florian

2017-11-28, 02:58 AM

Slithery D

2017-11-28, 08:00 AM

Shifter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/shifter/) is up on pfsrd.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-28, 09:14 AM

Shifter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/shifter/) is up on pfsrd.

I was just about to post this. You beat me =P.

As for damage optimization I wanted to look at some options that didn't require class dips as the Shifter's abilities do mostly scale as you level.

You could use the Totemic Initiate feat (if you don't mind the Athletic feat tax) to pick up Lesser Fiend totem, netting you a primary Gore attack for 1d8+Str damage. Usable for for BAB + Con rounds per day. Note, for standard and master totem powers you're going to have to go with a higher strength build, but you should be able to afford the Str 13 for the lesser totem.

You can also look into Demonic Implants (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicDemonicImplants.aspx) so long as you're not of a lawful or good alignment. For 15k you can have somebody cut off one of your legs and replace it with a demonic goat leg, getting a secondary hoof attack for 1d4 + 1d6 fire damage. Two extra attacks at higher levels is pretty good for just 30k. You can also get a Crown of Horns for the low low price of 20k and getting yourself scalped. Another secondary weapon, it only deal 1d4 damage but it deals double damage on a charge. Still, not quite as good of an option, even with the other additional effects. Wicked Wings for a permanent fly speed (or Deflect Arrows when not flying) isn't bad for 55k either.

In a similar vein, we have the fun Fleshcraft Grafts (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicFleshcrafting.aspx) to add non-demonic limbs and body parts. Some of these are quite useful as well, though they come with associated penalties.

Poison Fangs stands out (12,000), granting a 1d4 bite attack and a strength poison attack you can apply to the fangs three times per day. The penalty is a -2 on charisma-based skill checks except intimidate.

Stinging Tail is also nice (12,000) for a 1d6 stinger attack and a three times per day dexterity poison. The -5 ft land speed and -2 to acrobatics checks hurts, but by the time you get this graft you should be able to offset the penalty.

Wing of Darkness (36,000) are also cheaper than Wicked Wings, granting 60ft fly speed and a +5 competence bonus on fly checks. You may not want to suffer the -2 to all dexterity based skill checks and ability checks (except fly) unless you plan to just always be flying.

zlefin

2017-11-28, 10:36 AM

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-28, 12:31 PM

looked up the srd link;
it looks like it could be made to work passably, but nothing that interesting/special to it. I think other martials would do better on average, but I haven't run balance assessments in awhile.
I don't see much reason to bother making it work, as there's simply better (and not just in the power-level sense) options.

For out of combat utility, you're basically limited to being the party scout but you should excel at that role. As a melee combatant, you're actually going to be fairly powerful in terms of both damage output and maneuver utility. You will need to spend cash to graft additional natural attacks on your body, but being able to become large sized, gaining the corresponding reach and having Pounce with three primary natural attacks (Tiger) isn't exactly something to scoff at. Especially when that comes online at level 4.

The class doesn't compare favorably to Druids or Hunters, who will be able to match your damage output while bringing an animal companion and spell casting to the mix. It does compare decently to lower-tier classes, like the Fighter/Cavalier/Monk/Barbarian and so on though.

Overall, my opinion is that the class doesn't really match what was expected/desired by the community in terms of a shape-shifting class but it does a good job as simple martial character which excels at the roles of being a melee combatant and being a party scout.

Kurald Galain

2017-11-28, 01:00 PM

For a "simple martial character", the class looks fairly boring. Even the swashbuckler, a class generally considered a one-trick-pony beatstick, has more options and versatility than this.

Tiger and deionuchus are admittedly very effective, mainly because their pounce ability (there's not a whole lot of ways to get pounce in PF; there are plenty of ways to get multiple natural attacks on a character). The rest of the animal options pale in comparison, and appear pretty weak compared to other melee classes.

So with four levels of shifter, you can be a big animal throughout basically the entire adventuring day. After this, the class doesn't particularly give you anything, and you're better off leveling in barbarian, rogue, or pretty much anything else you can think of. Overall, it's pretty bland and uninspired.

GrayDeath

2017-11-28, 01:05 PM

Looks underwhelming, sadly.

Great as a simple scout/Fighting Character for beginners, and nice ignoring DR/- at Level 19, but the rest is simply adding numbers and/or additinal senses.
Also wondering that Paizo actually made something truly "at will", given their distaste for such abilities. ^^

Not even remotely as bad as some other classes though, so...yay?

Psyren

2017-11-28, 01:12 PM

Reading it, I see what the fuss is about - people wanted a toolbox shapeshifter and instead we got Man-Bat, or Man-Bear, or whatever other one-trick pony is out there.

To which I say - yeah it sucks that the base class didn't deliver on that fantasy, but I see plenty of hooks in this chassis to hang archetypes from. Hang tight and maybe we'll get one. If we don't, 3PP will undoubtedly do it.

Kurald Galain

2017-11-28, 01:13 PM

Not even remotely as bad as some other classes though, so...yay?

Such as what, then?

The main argument for the shifter is that it deals decent DPR. But that goes for pretty much any class these days. I'm having a hard time thinking of any other class with so few build options. The much-maligned kinny is awkwardly written but at least it's original.

GrayDeath

2017-11-28, 01:29 PM

Peat

2017-11-28, 02:37 PM

If we`re talking 3.p I got a few more, but out of the box (ergo without archetypes as there are non for the shifter atm): Monk, Fighter, maybe paladin and Kineticist.

Mind, its still boring and rather to very narrow. But at least it delivers more or less, just not the things I would have wanted....

Talk about damning with faint praise!

I think I'd consider Paladin or UC Monk out of that list... maybe... but otherwise, yeesh. If that's the Shifter's level, hard pass...

Although I guarantee someone will complain about its OPness after pouncing shifter destroys everything at 5th level at an inexperience table.

Serafina

2017-11-28, 04:15 PM

There's probably plenty of players who'd love their character to be able to turn into one specific animal. The Shifter can deliver on that at 4th level.
Of course, so can the Druid. So the question is, what does the Shifter do that Druid doesn't? Here's a list for 4th level:
- +1 BAB, better Reflex (but worse Will), slightly more HP
- Wisdom to AC
- Natural Attacks that ignore DR vulnerable to Cold Iron and Silver
- Minor Shifter Aspects and Track

That's actually not too bad, if you are ever looking for a dip to turn into a specific animal. Sure, Druid is more versatile - spells, more flexible wild shape - but Shifter actually offers more raw power in terms of slightly better attacks, and better armor class while shapeshifted.
So it's indeed not a bad dip, if this is what you want your character to do - I can very well see myself putting this on a Warpriest or Shaman, for example.
Of course, any dip would have to content with only being able to shift once per day, which is a bigger limitation than limited duration. A feat that lets levels in another class stack with shifter for the purpose of wild shape would solve that easily, though of course Paizo didn't do such a thing since it'd show how bad Shifter is as a whole class even more (still, easy homebrew).

Actually, I think the entirety of the Shifter-class could easily be replaced with a few feats.
One feat (possibly with Nature Soul as a prerequisite or something) to pick an animal, and get a minor form scaling with character level for that animal. Another that gives you Wild Shape into that animal, also scaling. Claws can likewise just be a feat, of course.
Because Shapeshifting is something a bunch of characters can do. Whether it's a Cleric (or Warpriest) shifting into their deities favored animal, or a rogue turning into an owl, or a barbarian turning into a bear - there's a ton of concepts where shapeshifting into a single specific animal can fit well.

Vhaidara

2017-11-28, 05:02 PM

Actually, I think the entirety of the Shifter-class could easily be replaced with a few feats.
One feat (possibly with Nature Soul as a prerequisite or something) to pick an animal, and get a minor form scaling with character level for that animal. Another that gives you Wild Shape into that animal, also scaling. Claws can likewise just be a feat, of course.
Because Shapeshifting is something a bunch of characters can do. Whether it's a Cleric (or Warpriest) shifting into their deities favored animal, or a rogue turning into an owl, or a barbarian turning into a bear - there's a ton of concepts where shapeshifting into a single specific animal can fit well.

Hm...I wonder if there are any other recent classes that fit this pattern. It feels like there was one not too long ago, but I can't put my finger on it.

Oh, right. Vigilante.

Seems to be becoming a pattern for Paizo. An unfortunate one, but a pattern.

Psyren

2017-11-28, 05:08 PM

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-28, 10:24 PM

I mean, Shifter gets 5 animals not just one, but you're right - this is narrow enough to have been covered by a feat chain.

Having said that, there's a lot of potential here for archetypes - but I have a feeling Paizo is more focused on their shiny new baby to expend much effort there, and I can't say for sure that it's the wrong decision.

I expect some of the authors who work on the side books will add options that help the class out. I wouldn't be shocked to see Wild Empathy, Track, Woodland Stride and Trackless step swapped out for options that grant better utility.

Current archetypes are a bit underwhelming though as all but the Elementilist Shifter limit you to a single form with static bonuses. Oozemorph basically starts you off as an Ooze creature with a limited ability to actually be a useful party member. Rageshifter gives you very limited rounds of rage (your class level) that also give you static bonuses. The first of which is you increase in size, but the archetype specifically calls out that you break your worn equipment unless it can magically resize. :smallannoyed:

Grim Reader

2017-11-29, 11:14 AM

Shifter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/shifter/) is up on pfsrd.

So that's what all the fuzz is about? With is set aspects and their set effects, it kind of compares to the Master of Many Forms like a Sorcerer compares to a Wizard, except it has so few aspects that it feels like a Sorcerer which only gets 5 spells known over its career compared to a Wizard. Give it 30-50 more aspects to choose from and a new aspect pick every 2 levels and it should do fine.

I wonder how it does in Pathfinder as a 4-5 level platform for entering PrCs? Its clearly not one of the access where you pay a big opportunity cost for PrC'ing out, like some Pathfinder classes. In 3.5 you could do an Elan Shifter and go into Soul Eater after level 5, for example. Fluff the Tiger form as a melanistic specimen.

upho

2017-11-29, 02:33 PM

@upho:

It´s less talked about in-depth, but the various aspects have scaling elements that put the animal form above and beyond everything that regular wild shape can do, like bear form giving Improved Natural Weapon, Awesome Blow and slowly upgrading the critical multiplier of the claws, while snake form gives climb and swim feat, scaling poison, Combat Reflexes and additional AoOs, and so on.Well, having finally read up on the class, I'd say no. Those minor scaling benefits generally have little actual impact on the shifter's combat effectiveness. And the examples you mention here actually illustrates this rather well, as none of them actually combine that well with the strengths of the shifter's combat style or the best other options for that style. For example, a wand of strong jaw and UMD ranks is superior to Improved Natural Weapon is in a very large majority of cases, Awesome Blow is crippled by size caps and thus very rarely worth the standard action, and the increased crit multiplier typically has little impact since it's very difficult to substantially increase the threat range and number of claw attacks you can make each round.

So aside from during levels 4 and 5, when the shifter's wild shape is actually ahead of regular wild shape, I'm not seeing how what you're saying here could be true. At all. Nothing the shifter's wild shape grants is even close to match that which say beast shape III grants AFAICT. Not even if we're only comparing purely combat related stuff and disregard the tons of utility regular wild shape provides. Instead, it would appear that from about 8th level and onwards, the shifter gains very little from it's wild shape ability, while regular wild shape continues to scale, both in terms of how effective a combat buff it is, and (especially) in terms of how numerous and powerful utility tools it offers.

That said, I think a few of these generally very modest scaling benefits stand out as a bit more interesting. Notably the frog's grabbing 30' tongue and the wolverine's access to two rage powers. Of course, those abilities will still appear rather pathetic in comparison to the combat tools a barb, or even a fighter, could have.

So basically:
Tiger and deionuchus are admittedly very effective, mainly because their pounce ability (there's not a whole lot of ways to get pounce in PF; there are plenty of ways to get multiple natural attacks on a character). The rest of the animal options pale in comparison, and appear pretty weak compared to other melee classes.This.

So beyond raw damage output, the aspect forms can also work well with more tactical builds, or you could have some fun with Startling Shapeshifter and Disheartenng Display, and so on.Thing is, none of those abilities have anyway near enough strength, reliability or versatility to support an actual combat style based on them. Ultimately, they're just different icings on top of the same single-target melee DPR cake.

Note that all of the above are in the context of "an optimized party", and doesn't prevent the shifter from fulfilling what I believe is its primary purpose; a lower level training wheels class. (Seems I simply cannot keep myself from pilfering Ssalarn's language whenever I get the chance... :smallredface:)

As for damage optimization I wanted to look at some options that didn't require class dips as the Shifter's abilities do mostly scale as you level.Yeah, during the earliest levels. But I don't really see much happening after you've got wild shape, which starts out exceptionally strong with basically beast shape II effects, but doesn't improve much later on. So once you've got a sufficient number of wild shape uses, I think there's absolutely no reason to stay in the class. Which in most games probably means no more than 10 levels.

Demonic implants/fleshgraftsMost of these things are probably better in item forms (Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail, Pelt of the Beast, etc) since those will typically also apply to your wild shapes.

The Shadowmind

2017-11-29, 03:07 PM

upho

2017-11-29, 03:16 PM

I expect some of the authors who work on the side books will add options that help the class out. I wouldn't be shocked to see Wild Empathy, Track, Woodland Stride and Trackless step swapped out for options that grant better utility.Let's hope so. If the shifter is going to be anything other than a training wheels class or a niche dip for certain builds, it's going to need some serious boosts.

Current archetypes are a bit underwhelming though as all but the Elementilist Shifter limit you to a single form with static bonuses. Oozemorph basically starts you off as an Ooze creature with a limited ability to actually be a useful party member. Rageshifter gives you very limited rounds of rage (your class level) that also give you static bonuses. The first of which is you increase in size, but the archetype specifically calls out that you break your worn equipment unless it can magically resize. :smallannoyed:The broken equipment part is really stupid IMO, and definitely not noob-friendly.

However, the rageshaper is still a landmark in the history of Pazio classes, as it the first martial which can become larger than Large. And that is indeed huge (pun intended), since it increases the effectiveness and higher level viability of so many things which are otherwise simply not worth it in the long run. Or to put it in other words, without being able to get larger than Large, a very large majority of possible melee combat styles which doesn't depend on damage simply won't remain competitive with damage styles in higher levels.

Too bad they still managed to ruin it with excessive use/day and level limitations, ridiculous costs and probably the worst activation in the game, none of which is redeemable through other options AFAICT.

upho

2017-11-29, 03:40 PM

So what Maneuvers will the Path of War Archetype of this will be getting? Veiled Moon?Probably none, since I don't see why DSP would bother with making an archetype for it. Especially since they're about to release Lords of the Wild, which is largely on the same theme and, if going by the playtest, so much better in all player related respects it's not even fun.

(And it actually includes a Formless Master which someone here mentioned they had hoped the shifter would be.)

upho

2017-11-29, 03:44 PM

So that's what all the fuzz is about? With is set aspects and their set effects, it kind of compares to the Master of Many Forms like a Sorcerer compares to a Wizard, except it has so few aspects that it feels like a Sorcerer which only gets 5 spells known over its career compared to a Wizard. Give it 30-50 more aspects to choose from and a new aspect pick every 2 levels and it should do fine.Not a bad idea. Though actually, my first thought was to simply allow chimeric aspect also apply to the wild shape major forms. That could actually make the class competitive also in higher levels and at least mid-op games, and it's certainly a lot more unique (and makes the class feature's name way more fitting IMO). When looking at the major forms the one major thing that keeps bugging me is that they're mutually exclusive. If you could combine them, their poorly scaling abilities would be much more competitive also in mid/high levels.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-29, 04:13 PM

Most of these things are probably better in item forms (Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail, Pelt of the Beast, etc) since those will typically also apply to your wild shapes.

I've got to check the source books, but Archives of Nethys had those body part grafts listed as magic items. Since the effects are always active they would carry over to your beast forms as well.

As for scaling benefits, getting to level 13 for the 1d10 Bite gets you to the point where you start seeing large increases in damage from size category increases. Improved Natural Attack would boost your average damage from 5.5 to 9 (1d10 to 2d8) which isn't bad for a single feat, keeping in mind that with Haste you'll be getting in 3 claw attacks per round. You also get to scale up your minor aspects at levels 8 and 15, and at 15 you get three of them active. So there are some benefits to sticking with the class for awhile if all you care about is being a beat stick.

Kurald Galain

2017-11-29, 04:50 PM

As for scaling benefits, getting to level 13 for the 1d10 Bite gets you to the point where you start seeing large increases in damage from size category increases. Improved Natural Attack would boost your average damage from 5.5 to 9 (1d10 to 2d8) which isn't bad for a single feat, keeping in mind that with Haste you'll be getting in 3 claw attacks per round. You also get to scale up your minor aspects at levels 8 and 15, and at 15 you get three of them active. So there are some benefits to sticking with the class for awhile if all you care about is being a beat stick.

I don't find those numbers particularly impressive for levels 13-15 and up. For instance, weapon using classes start with 1d10 right at level 1.

Milo v3

2017-11-29, 05:50 PM

However, the rageshaper is still a landmark in the history of Pazio classes, as it the first martial which can become larger than Large.
Earlier in the book has a strength-based kineticist archetype that gets gargantuan size.

EisenKreutzer

2017-11-29, 08:47 PM

I don't find those numbers particularly impressive for levels 13-15 and up. For instance, weapon using classes start with 1d10 right at level 1.

The exciting thing here is that with size increasing effects like Enlarge Person, you get some pretty hefty damage dice.

upho

2017-11-29, 09:16 PM

Earlier in the book has a strength-based kineticist archetype that gets gargantuan size.Heh, that actually sounds kinda cool. And reinforces what I said, since:

the kinny isn't a martial class
growing gargantuan has already been possibility for non-martials for years (synth)

upho

2017-11-29, 09:38 PM

The exciting thing here is that with size increasing effects like Enlarge Person, you get some pretty hefty damage dice.Well, there's one thing the shifter has going for it in comparison to weapon wielders in this regard, and that is the two virtual size increases provided by strong jaw, for which there's no equivalent applying to manufactured weapons aside from shields. EDIT: Actually, forget that. The butchering axe exists as an option for weapon wielders from 1st level. Makes 1d10 look pretty pathetic. /EDIT

But that's also nothing exclusive to the shifter class, but rather to natural attacker and unarmed builds in general, and there's nothing the shifter provides which makes this superior to that which other martial classes can provide. Heck, even a vanilla monk's US has a larger die already at 12th, or earlier with a monk's robe, and the monk can also make several additional attacks, and can much more easily boost damage substantially via Pummeling Charge and Horn of the Criosphinx. Granted, it has no native way of growing Large and has to rely on enlarge person from wands or friendly casters, but that's not much of an issue in most parties/games.

Milo v3

2017-11-29, 10:32 PM

Heh, that actually sounds kinda cool. And reinforces what I said, since:

the kinny isn't a martial class
growing gargantuan has already been possibility for non-martials for years (synth)

Kineticist is totally a martial. It's whole thing is just various different types of melee and ranged attacks, it's stats are purely focused around Str/Dex/Con, and the class gives them tonnes of physical ability score bonus, it's based around an all day mindset.

It's a martial. A supernatural martial, but still a martial.

Sir Chuckles

2017-11-29, 10:35 PM

I mean, they're proficient with Scimitars. You could be a Dervish Dance monkey or Elementalist.

That's kinda...neat, I guess. Which kinda sums up my overall feelings towards the class.
"I guess that's kinda neat."

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-30, 12:09 AM

Well the Elementalist Shifter's bonus elemental damage just costs your swift action each round, and adds 6d6 elemental damage (element chosen each round) on each melee attack by level 20. If you're dual-wielding scimitars (using Agile or Effortless Lace + Str for damage) you're going to be dealing silly amounts of damage.

Silly that you're ignoring the shape shifting part of things, but you can't get that bonus damage while in those forms. Using the forms to gain fly, burrow or swim speeds at need isn't too bad though. :smalltongue:

upho

2017-11-30, 01:05 AM

Kineticist is totally a martial. It's whole thing is just various different types of melee and ranged attacks, it's stats are purely focused around Str/Dex/Con, and the class gives them tonnes of physical ability score bonus, it's based around an all day mindset.

It's a martial. A supernatural martial, but still a martial.Come to think of it, I mostly agree. Meaning I'd say your reasons for calling the kinny martial are a lot more relevant and meaningful than my largely fluff-based instinctive reasons. And at the very least, I agree the kinny has more in common with other martial classes than it does with casters.

So, Paizo actually removed one of the greatest limitations of martial melee twice in the same publication! Though I suspect the kinny's size increases are about as hopelessly bogged down by limitations as the rageshaper's, and just about as useless in practice? :smallfrown:

Kurald Galain

2017-11-30, 01:37 AM

The exciting thing here is that with size increasing effects like Enlarge Person, you get some pretty hefty damage dice.
Size effects don't stack though.

Kineticist is totally a martial. It's whole thing is just various different types of melee and ranged attacks, it's stats are purely focused around Str/Dex/Con, and the class gives them tonnes of physical ability score bonus, it's based around an all day mindset.
Which is ironic because it was intended as a caster. But it's really pretty bad at casting.

Milo v3

2017-11-30, 02:06 AM

Though I suspect the kinny's size increases are about as hopelessly bogged down by limitations as the rageshaper's, and just about as useless in practice? :smallfrown:
Nope. It has no problems aside from making it harder to go in to buildings because now you're stuck giant till the end of the day. Size increases are even entirely optional and you get the size bonuses to your ability scores even if you remain your default size.

Though the archetype does make it difficult to adventure in the same location since to become larger you need to rip the life out of the environment regularly.

edit: Oh, and the size increases not creating problems like destroying armour doesn't break suspension of disbelief because the extra size doesn't come from your character's body getting larger but by basically creating a giant elemental body around yourself in the style of Avatar Mode.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7Qbd4R6uYHU/hqdefault.jpg

angelpalm

2017-11-30, 02:30 AM

Rather play a Moonlight Meditant over this. Although with this being out it does allow Dsp to make an archetype for it to make it not complete booty butt cheeks. They can do that and make an initiator archetype for the Hunter class :smallbiggrin:

EisenKreutzer

2017-11-30, 09:42 AM

Size effects don't stack though.

They don’t, true, but the shifters natural weapon dice increase makes no mention of size.

Psyren

2017-11-30, 10:14 AM

For the "break your gear" guy, that's just armor correct? Wondrous Items do resize, so there's got to be a way around the former.

Heh, that actually sounds kinda cool. And reinforces what I said, since:

the kinny isn't a martial class
growing gargantuan has already been possibility for non-martials for years (synth)

There are barbarian archetypes that can get Huge IIRC.

I mean, they're proficient with Scimitars. You could be a Dervish Dance monkey or Elementalist.

That's kinda...neat, I guess. Which kinda sums up my overall feelings towards the class.
"I guess that's kinda neat."

If I wanted a Dervish Dancer though there are way better chassis for that. Both claws and shapeshifting clash with a scimitar-focused build.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-30, 11:27 AM

For the "break your gear" guy, that's just armor correct? Wondrous Items do resize, so there's got to be a way around the former.

There are barbarian archetypes that can get Huge IIRC.

The "Fitting" armor property, which has a flat 2,000 gp gold cost. This causes your armor to "instantly shrink or grow to fit the size of any creature who picks it up unless it is already being worn by another creature." A strict reading means the armor probably doesn't change size with you. I don't know anybody who doesn't house-rule that your armor and weapons resize with you/for you though. Sucks if you're a PFS player I guess.

If I wanted a Dervish Dancer though there are way better chassis for that. Both claws and shapeshifting clash with a scimitar-focused build.

If you're going Elementalist you're just trying to maximize the free bonus damage on every melee hit. That's why I'd go with a TWFing build. +3d6 elemental damage on each scimitar attack by level 8.

Psyren

2017-11-30, 11:42 AM

The "Fitting" armor property, which has a flat 2,000 gp gold cost. This causes your armor to "instantly shrink or grow to fit the size of any creature who picks it up unless it is already being worn by another creature." A strict reading means the armor probably doesn't change size with you. I don't know anybody who doesn't house-rule that your armor and weapons resize with you/for you though. Sucks if you're a PFS player I guess.

Ugh yeah, that wording is wonky.

If you're going Elementalist you're just trying to maximize the free bonus damage on every melee hit. That's why I'd go with a TWFing build. +3d6 elemental damage on each scimitar attack by level 8.

I thought you couldn't TWF and Dervish Dance?

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-30, 12:28 PM

I thought you couldn't TWF and Dervish Dance?

I'm saying ignore Dervish Dance since you don't need it or Slashing Grace. Early levels are a little rough, but you can go weapon finesse and still have a 14 Str for bonus damage. Around level 4 or 5 you can use Effortless Lace on the Scimitars easily, or go with a single Agile Scimitar. When you've got the cash, two Agile Scimitars.

Assume a human, starting with Str: 14, Dex: 18, Con:14, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha: 7 boosting Dex to 22 as you level. Haste and Minor Aspect (Dex, Con) as my buffs and wielding two +3 Agile Scimitars. Without spending all my feats, I'm got attack rolls of +28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13. That's not using Power Attack fyi. Base weapon damage is 1d6+12+5d6 (energy). Not too shabby.

You're kinda of just a glorified Fighter, but the elemental damage is situationally useful as are the 7 uses of Elemental Body 1 and the Omnielementalist abilities you can use in combat.

upho

2017-11-30, 03:17 PM

Nope. It has no problems aside from making it harder to go in to buildings because now you're stuck giant till the end of the day. Size increases are even entirely optional and you get the size bonuses to your ability scores even if you remain your default size.

Though the archetype does make it difficult to adventure in the same location since to become larger you need to rip the life out of the environment regularly.Having read up on it, I do think it comes with some pretty darn harsh limitations, such as:

requires you to be EVILTM
typically needs plenty of buffing time
depends on access to large areas with "enough life", where you haven't already used Steal Power during the last month
doesn't allow you to grow Huge until 16th

All things considered, I kinda like the Blighted Defiler's yummy EVILTM "muscle" flavor, but I don't see how it's size increase related mechanics could be worth the tremendous costs. Meaning if you wanna excel as say a melee control martial in a Paizo-only game, you're probably still much better off with bloodrager levels. (And for my games, I'm typically comparing size increasing options to that of simply using a psionic dorje of metamorphosis (11,250 gp for 50 three-minute uses). Which sets the bar pretty high, notably in terms of accessibility and the total investments required.)

edit: Oh, and the size increases not creating problems like destroying armour doesn't break suspension of disbelief because the extra size doesn't come from your character's body getting larger but by basically creating a giant elemental body around yourself in the style of Avatar Mode.I guess that's nice for those who typically feel their suspension of disbelief threatened by equipment growing with other forms of size increases. Personally, I wouldn't have any problems buying or inventing another explanation, or for why a rageshaper shifter's equipment grows with their body instead of being ruined for that matter (it's magic, for crying out loud). So I find that part of the rageshaper to be especially poor design which needlessly breaks with the norm for size increase mechanics, not to mention being completely at odds with the shifter's "training wheels" concept.

Triskavanski

2017-11-30, 09:24 PM

I just noticed something with the Oozemorph.. It totally has no limits on using metal equipment.

Wanna get weird?

Possessed hand, hands anatomy. Once you're not able to do anything because you took too much damage or what not, you suddenly gain a hand to do things for you.

Hands detachment - Split the ooze.. which suddenly becomes a totally normal possessed hand.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-11-30, 09:40 PM

So I find that part of the rageshaper to be especially poor design which needlessly breaks with the norm for size increase mechanics, not to mention being completely at odds with the shifter's "training wheels" concept.

Heh. I've actually been thinking that the the class being "new player friendly" is possibly what Paizo failed at the most with this book.

Mara

2017-12-01, 09:02 AM

I've been crunching the numbers.

1. Oozemorph is viable provided you grab heavy armor and shield proficiencies. Some notes, the class doesn't temp fall for 24 hours if it wears metal. It replaced that feature from the shifter. It still learns druidic. Oozeform is either not a Polymorph effect (and thus can't benefit from magic items), or it's a polymorph effect without a form and just ignores the form general rules for Polymorph, or it's a Polymorph effect without a form and thus produces an error for things like base move speed. I feel the first option is the most RAW and lines up with developer intent of magic items not working in oozeform.
Aside from RAW questions, oozemorphs have more utility, better damage, and better AC up through high levels. Easily a tier 4 class. Alterself form can wear magic items and shifting between that form and other forms let's you keep passive effects, using the first interpretation of oozeform.

2. Base shifter is non-viable. You need to invest heavily in UMD and grab monkey aspect by 10 to use wands to boost both your to-hit and AC. You need to grab heavy armor Prof and your boss killing form is wolverine for the barbarian rage. With all of that you get something workable. Dex shifter has to do the same things sans heavy armor Prof and has access to less good forms and the critical feat is getting nerfed soon.

3. I honestly think the NPC class warrior is a stronger class and more useful from 1-20 than the base shifter because of better proficiencies. You can still pump umd, you don't have to burn feats on armor profs or the ability to talk. Your neck slot is free and composite longbows are a low level ranged combat option. Any complaints about CRB fighters equally apply to shifters. It's a tier 5 class right between warrior and expert.

Kurald Galain

2017-12-01, 09:23 AM

1. Oozemorph is viable provided you grab heavy armor and shield proficiencies. Some notes, the class doesn't temp fall for 24 hours if it wears metal.
That's a fun oversight. However, the class does state that it cannot benefit from armor; and even if you do wear armor then shifting to humanoid form would cause it to stop functioning (per the alter self spell).

Mara

2017-12-01, 10:27 AM

That's a fun oversight. However, the class does state that it cannot benefit from armor; and even if you do wear armor then shifting to humanoid form would cause it to stop functioning (per the alter self spell).
1. That's not how polymorph general rules handle alterself, monstrous physique, undead anatomy, or giant form.

2. You have to put on the armor AFTER you shift via alterself.

3. Oozeform can't wear armor, not the class itself

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 11:33 AM

Aside from RAW questions, oozemorphs have more utility, better damage, and better AC up through high levels. Easily a tier 4 class. Alterself form can wear magic items and shifting between that form and other forms let's you keep passive effects, using the first interpretation of oozeform.

Starting at what level? because as I see it, oozemorph is basically unplayable at low levels. Level 3, you've got a 1/day ability to assume a humanoid form for 3 hours at a time before you have to start making saves. While not in humanoid form

However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.

You basically can't do anything to contribute out of combat, on account of not being able to HOLD THINGS OR TALK. And it basically creates a soft ban on ever leaving the class. Except...

It was linked earlier, but i personally find oozemorph hilarious as something you dip a level or two of, then deliberately fall and lose the Su Oozeform, while keeping all of the other Ex features. including your natural attacks and your Compression ability. Because I'm sorry, tying TALKING to an ability with severely limited per day usage is just not cricket.

Mara

2017-12-01, 11:58 AM

Oozeform may not be an SU ability. It is not suppressed in an anti magic field. So you might not lose the form when falling depending on your interpretation of the RAW.

Morphic weapons still work and there are no rules preventing you from pushing things (author also reads the rules that way). Playing a hideous ooze that can't talk is a roleplaying opportunity for some people.

By level 6, you have 18 hours of alterself. At level 4, you have 8 hours. It's only 1-3 that you are a monstrous blob for most of an adventuring day.

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 12:09 PM

Oozeform may not be an SU ability. It is not suppressed in an anti magic field. So you might not lose the form when falling depending on your interpretation of the RAW.

Fluidic Body is undeniably an Su feature. It is labeled as such, and that's what gives you the ooze body and the ability to go humanoid form. And since you lose the whole feature, you're back to humanoid.

By level 6, you have 18 hours of alterself. At level 4, you have 8 hours. It's only 1-3 that you are a monstrous blob for most of an adventuring day.

Assuming you never have to swap OUT of humanoid form. And that's still not only 3 levels of essential unplayability, but it's the 3 FIRST levels.

Mara

2017-12-01, 12:15 PM

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 12:26 PM

My first post on this page clarifies three possible RAW interpretations and their consequences. I would ask that you pick one or come up with your own solution before we discuss the merits of this archetype further.

I don't see any relevance of what you talked about (mostly armor stuff) to the fact that Fluidic Body is a Su ability and that Shifter contains a section on Ex-Shifters that Oozemorph does not override

A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a shifter until she atones (see the atonement spell).

I'm not talking about wearing armor, I'm talking about alignment change or teaching someone else Druidic. Or hell, tell nature to screw off.
This means you lose Fluidic Body, and all parts of the ability. There is no exception made in any of the class features.

Mara

2017-12-01, 12:44 PM

Oozeforms interactions with or lack of interactions with the polymorph rules determine if oozeform is even an ability the shifter has or just a status applied to her base form.

What is the oozeform's move speed?

Is it a Polymorph effect? What form are you replacing things with per the polymorph general rules? Do melded in magic items work while in oozeform as per the polymorph general rules?

There are many questions you must answer if you read "This is a polymorph effect" as applying to oozeform or just the ability as a whole.

The reading I believe makes the most sense, is that oozeform isn't a Polymorph effect or an SU ability. It alters your base form and can't be undone without losing the shifter level.

I also like saying it is a polymorph effect and it ignores the form replacement rules in the general Polymorph rules. But that flies in the face of dev intent, magic items are not suppose to work in oozeform.

The last interpretation that people get is that oozeform is undefined and thus the move speed you get is undefined, therefore you generate an error and the archetype is unplayable (it's not 0 it's undefined)

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 12:56 PM

Mara

2017-12-01, 01:01 PM

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 01:06 PM

You aren't answering the questions required to even introduce the archetype into your game without generating errors.

Therefore your "fun" interaction with falling is pointless because the archetype can't exist in-game without questions being answered. Undefined abilities like move speed, break the game in that it can't continue until the error is addressed.

I am answering it, by making it irrelevant. The character in question doesn't HAVE Fluidic Form, and therefore nothing about Fluidic Form MATTERS for them any more than it does for a straight fighter.

I can't imagine anyone ever playing this with a starting level below 3, and not starting out fallen, because, as established, low level oozemorphs are unplayable due to not being allowed to actually interact with anything.

Mara

2017-12-01, 01:12 PM

I am answering it, by making it irrelevant. The character in question doesn't HAVE Fluidic Form, and therefore nothing about Fluidic Form MATTERS for them any more than it does for a straight fighter.

I can't imagine anyone ever playing this with a starting level below 3, and not starting out fallen, because, as established, low level oozemorphs are unplayable due to not being allowed to actually interact with anything.
You can't teach druidic, change alignment, or activate Fluidic Body with an undefined movespeed. The game pauses until you address the error.

Since you aren't offering an interpretation, your exploit can't happen. The archetype can't be played until you read and interpret the rules.

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 01:15 PM

You can't teach druidic or change alignment with an undefined movespeed. The game pauses until you address the error.

Since you aren't offering an interpretation, your exploit can't happen. The archetype can't be played until you read and interpret the rules.

Except, as stated, that happened in the background, since this character is starting already fallen. At no point are they played with an undefined move speed.

I don't CARE what the answer is, because at no point do I intend to touch an ability written by someone who decided putting a daily limit on talking was a good idea. You can use whatever interpretation you want, because the end result doesn't MATTER to this.

Mara

2017-12-01, 01:20 PM

Except, as stated, that happened in the background, since this character is starting already fallen. At no point are they played with an undefined move speed.

I don't CARE what the answer is, because at no point do I intend to touch an ability written by someone who decided putting a daily limit on talking was a good idea. You can use whatever interpretation you want, because the end result doesn't MATTER to this.

The only possible outcome is that you can't play the archetype even the background calculations pause until you address the undefined move speed question.

At my table you would be stuck in oozeform until you atone. Because I don't consider Oozeform as SU or part of Fluidic Body or a Polymorph effect.

I wanted to talk about this under your interpretation but since you refuse to give it, I'll just have to say your exploit doesn't work.

Lord_Gareth

2017-12-01, 01:23 PM

At my table you would be stuck in oozeform until you atone. Because I don't consider Oozeform as SU or part of Fluidic Body or a Polymorph effect.

This is a hell of a trick considering that it's explicitly labeled supernatural. You wanna explain this incredible feat of grammatical innovation?

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 01:26 PM

Allow me to apply a visual (https://imgur.com/a/xYz3t).

Look at this archetype. This is what a fallen oozemorph looks like. Show me the problem.

Mara

2017-12-01, 01:38 PM

This is a hell of a trick considering that it's explicitly labeled supernatural. You wanna explain this incredible feat of grammatical innovation?
I would advocate that Oozeform is only described in Fluidic Body. It's an infliction applied to the oozemorph's base form. It's not a polymorph effect nor is it an SU effect. This is supported by oozeform working in antimagic fields (which SUs normally can't). It satisfies dev intent that magic items aren't usable in oozeform because you have no slots nor do the polymorph rules for melded gear let you keep magic item effects (though the dev wanted gear to both meld in the form and be unusable, but he admits the gear melding in part was removed). Lastly, you don't have to ignore the general Polymorph rules that say you gain your forms move speed. Since oozeform doesn't have a defined move speed, if it was a Polymorph effect, you would either get an undefined move speed or you have to ignore those rules. As an affliction it merely alters the base form and doesn't have to ignore nearly as many rules.

Since the ability states "This is a polymorph effect", the "This" is ambiguously about oozeform or is referring to Fluidic Body as a whole.

I believe the interpretation that functions best is that Oozeform isn't a Polymorph effect, SU, or part of Fluidic body. It's functional and lines up with dev intentions the most.

I also like saying you just ignore the form rules in polymorph general rule and that Oozeform is a Polymorph effect, SU, and a part of Fluidic body, but that strikes my as the munchkin interpretation because it lets you use magic item effects in Oozeform when you weren't intended too.

Other interpretation I'm aware of is that you get an undefined move speed and the game breaks.

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 01:42 PM

I would advocate that Oozeform is only described in Fluidic Body.

You would advocate for a very nice houserule then. As written, Oozeform is undeniably a part of Fluidic Body. If it wasn't, it would have its own class feature entry and not be part of Fluidic Body.

Mara

2017-12-01, 01:45 PM

You would advocate for a very nice houserule then. As written, Oozeform is undeniably a part of Fluidic Body. If it wasn't, it would have its own class feature entry and not be part of Fluidic Body.
And now you are ignoring the Polymorph general rules and dev intent.

You have to do SOMETHING uncouth to get the archetype working.

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 01:49 PM

dev intent

If the devs intended it to be a separate ability, they very easily could have made it a separate ability. It's not exactly hard to do.

As is, this method is the closest thing that shifter gets to being a halfway decent class, because it allows it to function as a dip for a pair of decent natural weapons, compression, and ooze empatht. Which makes it a pretty fun dip for, say, a rogue. Compression is a thief's wet dream, and suddenly you can befriend all those nasty oozes in the sewers? That sounds like great use of a level.

Mara

2017-12-01, 01:59 PM

If the devs intended it to be a separate ability, they very easily could have made it a separate ability. It's not exactly hard to do.

As is, this method is the closest thing that shifter gets to being a halfway decent class, because it allows it to function as a dip for a pair of decent natural weapons, compression, and ooze empatht. Which makes it a pretty fun dip for, say, a rogue. Compression is a thief's wet dream, and suddenly you can befriend all those nasty oozes in the sewers? That sounds like great use of a level. And you are ignoring parts of the Polymorph general rules.

Which I was asking you if you wanted to do because I think it's a fine interpretation. You were the one insistent on not interpreting the rules.

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 02:01 PM

And you are ignoring parts of the Polymorph general rules.

Which I was asking you if you wanted to do because I think it's a fine interpretation. You were the one insistent on not interpreting the rules.

I'm saying that the polymorph rules are irrelevant to me. Whatever ruling you give, I don't have Fluidic Body, and as such I don't have an Oozeform.

Mara

2017-12-01, 02:10 PM

I'm saying that the polymorph rules are irrelevant to me. Whatever ruling you give, I don't have Fluidic Body, and as such I don't have an Oozeform.
You are stuck in oozeform then because you are defaulting to my interpretation instead of offering your own.

Vhaidara

2017-12-01, 02:12 PM

You are stuck in oozeform then because you are defaulting to my interpretation instead of offering your own.

No, I'm not, because your interpretation, that Oozeform is not part of Fluidic Form despite being part of Fluidic Form, is factually incorrect.

Your "ruling" is not a ruling, it is a houserule.

Mara

2017-12-01, 02:22 PM

No, I'm not, because your interpretation, that Oozeform is not part of Fluidic Form despite being part of Fluidic Form, is factually incorrect.

Your "ruling" is not a ruling, it is a houserule.

Fluidic Body has RAW questions that must be addressed before it is playable and depending on the answer your trick doesn't work.

You don't get to skip them. They must be answered before you can do anything that would let you "fall" background or otherwise.

The most pure RAW, is that the archetype is unplayable and you can't use it. So playing it at all can be considered a houserule. Calling what I'm doing that means nothing because you could be blatantly houseruling to even get to the point that you "fall" as an oozemorph.

Kurald Galain

2017-12-01, 02:26 PM

I'm not talking about wearing armor, I'm talking about alignment change or teaching someone else Druidic. Or hell, tell nature to screw off.
This means you lose Fluidic Body, and all parts of the ability. There is no exception made in any of the class features.

It's pretty obvious that this trick is technically legal but highly likely to get errata'ed, and good luck getting it past any reasonable GM before that.

And that's really too bad, because playing an oozemorph-without-its-main-ability is actually much more playable and fun than using the entire archetype. The whole book feels rather rushed, they should have edited this better.

Serafina

2017-12-01, 02:29 PM

It's pretty obvious that the devs didn't plan on anyone intentionally falling to make the archetype useable.
At the same time, the RAW interpretation is pretty clear-cut - lose the ability, and you no longer have the "natural ooze form".
The proper fix would be to just make that ability extraordinary, or split it into two (one that grants the ooze form and is EX, one that gives the polymorph and is SU).

Of course, you can just play a Kitsune, Skinwalker, or other race that gains some natural form of shapeshifting without limited duration. Use your natural form of shapeshifting, never worry about not having a humanoid shape. Enjoy your two natural weapons, having unique access to compression, and if you dip a second level, even some decent damage reduction.

Galacktic

2017-12-01, 02:30 PM

Fluidic Body has RAW questions that must be addressed before it is playable and depending on the answer your trick doesn't work.

You don't get to skip them. They must be answered before you can do anything that would let you "fall" background or otherwise.

The most pure RAW, is that the archetype is unplayable and you can't use it. So playing it at all can be considered a houserule. Calling what I'm doing that means nothing because you could be blatantly houseruling to even get to the point that you "fall" as an oozemorph.

You're being incredibly rude and pedantic, by the way. Like, extremely so. The archetype is unplayable without the falling fix, so just fall in your backstory. And if it doesn't mention a movespeed - why are you hung up on that of all things? - then just use your race's base movespeed.

It states that it's treated -as- a polymorph effect. That doesn't mean it -is- a polymorph effect. You're treated as an ooze for all the important things and it can be assumed that your basic playability is still a thing that exists - you aren't stationary.

Mara

2017-12-01, 02:43 PM

You're being incredibly rude and pedantic, by the way. Like, extremely so. The archetype is unplayable without the falling fix, so just fall in your backstory. And if it doesn't mention a movespeed - why are you hung up on that of all things? - then just use your race's base movespeed.

It states that it's treated -as- a polymorph effect. That doesn't mean it -is- a polymorph effect. You're treated as an ooze for all the important things and it can be assumed that your basic playability is still a thing that exists - you aren't stationary.
Rude is refusing to read and interpret a class and then attempt to discuss it and keep refusing to explain what you are doing.

I think that is a fine interpretation of Fluidic Body that you presented. No you don't get to skip that and hand wave it in the background. The archetype is unplayable without interpretation.

I would also disagree that it is unplayable without falling. Oozeform is a fine but wonky way to play the first few levels and many of my friends are thrilled at the idea. Talking is not the entirety of roleplaying. You don't need to do it all of the time.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-12-01, 03:37 PM

The whole book feels rather rushed, they should have edited this better.

I feel like we've been saying that a lot about Paizo products as of late.

2. Base shifter is non-viable. You need to invest heavily in UMD and grab monkey aspect by 10 to use wands to boost both your to-hit and AC. You need to grab heavy armor Prof and your boss killing form is wolverine for the barbarian rage. With all of that you get something workable. Dex shifter has to do the same things sans heavy armor Prof and has access to less good forms and the critical feat is getting nerfed soon.

I'd be curious what criteria you're using to deem the base-line Shifter non-viable. Unimpressive, sure? But what I'm seeing shows the class doing just fine as a melee martial so long as you utilize Shifter's Edge. Without any gear, I'm seeing 18 AC with a +10 to hit at level 4, 21 AC with +16 to hit at level 8 and 22 AC +20 to hit at level 12. Only feats selected so far are Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Claws and Shifter's Edge, so non-claw attacks are at a -1.

You fluctuate between a 65% and 80% chance to hit an enemy with a CR equal to your level as you level, without any buffs that you don't grant yourself. Once you can afford your Amulet of Mighty Fists and Wild Armor you're doing fine, but there's actually an argument to made for relying on Mage Armor with a Dex build if you want to forgo that expense.

As for the nerf to Shifter's Edge, so far that's just a forum post and it will be some time before errata comes out (if it ever does). I'm pretty much a hard-liner on just ignoring Paizo's errata at this point, but if the nerf happens and if you can't ignore it then choosing Bull as your second aspect mitigates the damage loss a bit. You may just want to go with an Agile amulet amulet instead though, I haven't crunched the numbers on Agile w/out Shifter's Edge versus Shifter's Edge and a bit of Str.

Mara

2017-12-01, 06:36 PM

I feel like we've been saying that a lot about Paizo products as of late.

I'd be curious what criteria you're using to deem the base-line Shifter non-viable. Unimpressive, sure? But what I'm seeing shows the class doing just fine as a melee martial so long as you utilize Shifter's Edge. Without any gear, I'm seeing 18 AC with a +10 to hit at level 4, 21 AC with +16 to hit at level 8 and 22 AC +20 to hit at level 12. Only feats selected so far are Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Claws and Shifter's Edge, so non-claw attacks are at a -1.

You fluctuate between a 65% and 80% chance to hit an enemy with a CR equal to your level as you level, without any buffs that you don't grant yourself. Once you can afford your Amulet of Mighty Fists and Wild Armor you're doing fine, but there's actually an argument to made for relying on Mage Armor with a Dex build if you want to forgo that expense.

As for the nerf to Shifter's Edge, so far that's just a forum post and it will be some time before errata comes out (if it ever does). I'm pretty much a hard-liner on just ignoring Paizo's errata at this point, but if the nerf happens and if you can't ignore it then choosing Bull as your second aspect mitigates the damage loss a bit. You may just want to go with an Agile amulet amulet instead though, I haven't crunched the numbers on Agile w/out Shifter's Edge versus Shifter's Edge and a bit of Str.

It's late levels that are the problem. You are expected to cap at 30 dex and 20 wis, so AC: 10 base + 10 dex + 5 wis + 5 monk + 5 deflection = 35, 4 more from mouse form (your boss killer), thus 40 AC and two claws that do one-handed damage. workable AC, pitiful damage.

A large form is unworkable due to accuracy loss.

Your martial will be less than effective for a big final boss fight, you are destined to be sub standard without UMD.

I personally feel strength is more powerful, but that isn't saying much.

Psyren

2017-12-01, 07:01 PM

I feel like we've been saying that a lot about Paizo products as of late.

My guess is that they're splitting their team between Pathfinder and Starfinder and the seams are beginning to show.

Starfinder itself, so far at least, is quite well-edited.

Triskavanski

2017-12-01, 08:11 PM

Ooze form shifter - Anything in it that says you cannot make normal unarmed attacks?

Kurald Galain

2017-12-01, 08:22 PM

It's late levels that are the problem. You are expected to cap at 30 dex and 20 wis
Most campaigns never get anywhere near that high. I'm more interested to see how well the archetype performs at levels 5 through 10, and so far it appears to be doing pretty well there. At low level it appears problematic because you're stuck in ooze form about 90% of the time and you just can't do much in ooze form.

It's still not great though. DR is good, but clinging ooze and ooze empathy are mostly useless, and morphic weaponry is a limitation rather than a bonus. But it's a highly original archetype and at least it's workable.

Triskavanski

2017-12-01, 08:41 PM

Well my question above is till standing.. But I've got a way to make the weirdest Ooze shifter.

Level 1 - Take Constructed pugilist Brawler to get a robot arm. Take possessed hand. If you start off human, you can also take hands anatomy.
Level 2 - Take ooze form shifter to gain ooze form.
Level 3 - Take a level of Alchemist. Take Hands detatchment
Level 4 - Take second level of Alchemist - Get tumor Familiar
Level 5 on ward take ooze shifter or whatever.

So once you take ooze form shifter, your robot arm falls off. Then while ooze form you could have your tumor familiar leave your body or rejoin it as you wish. Whats more you could detatch your 'hand' Which suddenly becomes a crawling hand or maybe you can't while you're not shifted.

NightbringerGGZ

2017-12-01, 11:28 PM

It's late levels that are the problem. You are expected to cap at 30 dex and 20 wis, so AC: 10 base + 10 dex + 5 wis + 5 monk + 5 deflection = 35, 4 more from mouse form (your boss killer), thus 40 AC and two claws that do one-handed damage. workable AC, pitiful damage.

A large form is unworkable due to accuracy loss.

Your martial will be less than effective for a big final boss fight, you are destined to be sub standard without UMD.

I personally feel strength is more powerful, but that isn't saying much.

Gotcha. Well your mouse wouldn't actually get two claw attacks, it would get a single bite attack using your claw stats and 1.5x Str bonus (or dex if you're subbing that in). This really isn't an optimal build at all.

Take a look at this level 16 build where you actually polymorph into Tiger form.

General: Human, Str 12, Dex 22(28), Con 14(20), Int 12, Wis 14(20), Cha 7, FCB: Skill Ranks

Traits: Adopted > Cruel Child, Awakened from Stasis

Aspects: Bear, Dino, Mouse, Tiger

Feats: Energized Wild Shape (Acid), Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Mutated Shape (Claw), Piranha Strike, Planar Wild Shape, Shifter's Edge, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Claw), Wild Speech

Gear: +5 Wild Darkleaf Cloth Spider-Silk Bodysuit, +4 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Fleshcraft Graft: Stinging Tail, Fleshcraft Graft: Wings of Darkness, Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Ring of Protection +5, Shifter's Headband (+6 Wis)

Ok, so let me explain what we've got going on here. The Cruel Child trait gives you +1 to attack rolls with claw attacks when making a full attack. I'm assuming you have Haste as your sole external buff and you stay in Dire Tiger form, so this gives us 3 strong claw attacks and 1 weaker (mutant) claw attack each round. That gives you pretty good odds to activate your Rake. We're also adding on a Gore attack, a poisonous Stinging Tail attack and a Bite attack to that list. We have 8 attacks per full attack, and since we're pouncing in our Dire Tiger form and can make a flying charge against targets within 120 feet I think we've got pretty good odds of getting that full attack off. Oh, and just for kicks that second trait gives us the benefits of 8 hours of sleep after a 2 hour cat nap which is a boon for utility use of shapeshift forms.

Assume a flying charge, Haste, Agile and current rules for Shifter's Edge. My attacks are as follows:
+32 Shifter's Claws x3: 3d8+28+1d6 element
+32 Mutated Form Claw: 1d8+12+1d6 element
Rend: 1d10+12+1d6 element
+30 Bite: 2d8+12+1d6 element
+30 Gore: 1d8+12+1d6 element
+30 Stinging Tail: 1d6+12+1d6 element, 3/day DC 20 Dex poison, 1d4 Dex damage, 1/round for 4 rounds

Note, I've also applied either the Fiendish or the Celestial template to myself while using Wild Shape. If I use Smite Evil/Good that's another +16 damage per attack for an effective boss killer (since that's 1/day). The templates all give me Spell Resistance 21 (CR + 5), Energy Resistance 15 against certain elements and DR 10/Good or Evil.

At this point I would take 4 levels of Unchained Rogue (Scout) and make sure to grab the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to finish up the build. I know this isn't pure Shifter now, but this is too silly not to do. This lets you deal 3d6 sneak attack on each attack made while charging, which combos well with our Pounce ability. If the target is somehow still alive, our Debilitating injury can be used to make sure the target takes a -4 AC penalty against our attacks on the next round.

Edit: P.S. please check my math and assumptions. I whipped up that build tonight and Hero Lab doesn't fully support some things that should have been legal. (like it kept trying to apply 1.5 Dex to various attacks).