Xanathar's Magic Duel. Who is the best? Bard x Wizard x Sorcerer x Warlock

[Bardock here]

After the release of Xanathar's in a direct duel, Who is the best full spellcaster?
Allowed multiclass

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f4/97/9e/f4979e32f61b634644669bae81ae4146.jpg

[Zene]

Divine soul sorc 3 / War Wiz 17 with a full spellbook and a tome of the stilled tongue.

[Matticusrex]

Assuming no multiclassing, wizard will always be the strongest caster and class in the game.

[JackPhoenix]

Assuming no multiclassing, wizard will always be the strongest caster and class in the game.

Got any evidence for this claim, or are you just repeating old argument from 3e days?

[Solunaris]

If we're talking a direct duel, Sorcerer has everything beat. With the new Counterspell rules and Subtle Spell the Sorcerer can just cast with impunity while counterspelling anything the other caster tries. The only limitation would be at what distance the casters start from eachother, but a single Dimension Door would fix that in a jiffy.

[Unoriginal]

If all combatants are of the same level, DnD PvP is decided by the Initiative roll, not by classes.

[Toadkiller]

Pretty much this. With a good dash of luck on dice rolls in general mixed in.

[Aymon]

Bard gets jack of all trades bonus to init.

However wizard will likely have contingency in place.

Personally on average I doubt either of those beats the action economy and metamagic tricks of an optimised hexblade 3/sorcerer 17.

I certainly don't see the outcome as a forgone conclusion.

[noob]

Was there not a specialist wizard that got a boost to init or re-rolls?
Such as Lore Mastery wizard or divination wizard.
Oh and lore mastery wizard can counter one spell cast within one mile.

[Zene]

Assuming no multiclassing, wizard will always be the strongest caster and class in the game.

OP did say multiclass allowed.


Was there not a specialist wizard that got a boost to init or re-rolls?
Such as Lore Mastery wizard or divination wizard.
Oh and lore mastery wizard can counter one spell cast within one mile.

War wizard in XGE gets +int bonus to initiative

[Specter]

Considering spells, obviously Bard. Not only do they get damage spells like Synaptic Static now, but they can also steal any spell they want from other lists. Favored Soul still has got nothing on the jack of all trades.

[SharkForce]

Bard gets jack of all trades bonus to init.

However wizard will likely have contingency in place.

Personally on average I doubt either of those beats the action economy and metamagic tricks of an optimised hexblade 3/sorcerer 17.

I certainly don't see the outcome as a forgone conclusion.

what action economy? the sorcerer uses quicken and gets an extra cantrip out, but can't counterspell on their turn (and can't subtle a quickened spell, so you've kindly told your opponent which spell is the big one that needs counterspelling while leaving it possible to be counterspelled :P ). quicken is nice, but i wouldn't expect to get a ton of use out of it in a mage duel. you're going to need to be extremely careful about when you use it.

meanwhile, many of their other tricks are likely to not be useful, because the sorcerer in order to be plausible should not be hyperfocused on dueling (really the only one that can plausibly do that is the wizard, and even then only if they know in advance they'll have a spell duel today).

for example, twin spell... not so useful in a 1v1 duel. neither is careful, though depending on how your DM feels about the dev clarification, you may have been avoiding it like the plague anyways.

so a most probable metamagic selection, presuming we're at a level where the sorcerer can access all 4, would be something like quicken, twin, subtle, heighten (possibly one switched out for careful if it's still good in your campaign, possibly one switched out for empower if you like nuking).... and if you're not at least level 9 (more if you multiclass), you might have only a pair of metamagics that are not that useful for a mage duel.

at higher levels, if preparation is allowed the wizard can really start to get scary, which means you're generally limited to artificially taking power away from the wizard in order to keep it more of a fair fight... at which point, you've basically already acknowledged the wizard had a huge advantage to begin with :P

[Citan]

Divine soul sorc 3 / War Wiz 17 with a full spellbook and a tome of the stilled tongue.
This, somewhat, confer below...

Considering spells, obviously Bard. Not only do they get damage spells like Synaptic Static now, but they can also steal any spell they want from other lists. Favored Soul still has got nothing on the jack of all trades.
Nope. ;)
Confer what Zene said, Subtle spell = no counter.
Add to that...
- Alert feat just to be extra sure.
- Extend spell if you want to make yourself immune to Power Word Kill by high level Aid (not that there is a big chance of you not starting anyways).
- Heightened spell otherwise that you can use with those big Wizard spells.

Only ones I can see beating this are Divine Soul Sorc 3 / Diviner Wizard 17 because of Portent (1 for winning Initiative, 1 for imposing spell effect) or Divine Soul Sorc 3 / Lore Bard 17 with Alert (because you can cast Extend Foresight, and between Jack of all Trades, Alert and Peerless Skill you have a very high chance of winning the Initiative).

...
...
Just double-checked on the web: Wizard apparently has Foresight on his spell list. And he also has Time Stop. So let me review my opinion.

DSS 3 / WMW 17 will crush any opponent, except maybe a counter SDD3 / Diviner Wiz with lucky Portent rolls.

Max INT, grab Alert feat, whatever you want with the last (I'd take Lucky).
Bonus to Initiative is 3 (DEX) + 5 (Alert) + 5 (War) = 13 before roll.
Be an Half-Elf, so you can use the extremely stupid, extremely breaking pseudo-official ruling that you can take a long rest in only 4 hours.

You can then (unless I missed something big in the rules, which is perfectly possible ;)) repeat the following procedure (adapt as needed depending on which spell is still active obviously).

0. Prepare your Contingency and your Simulacrum if not yet set. Also use upcast Heightened Planar Binding to get another creature to help you.
(There are lots other of nasty tricks which I do not know, being not an expert at high-level Wizard magic. Confer guides ;)).

1. Cast Extended long-duration buffs as high as possible: Aid (+45 HP, 16 hours, which you can also use on a familiar or bound creature and your Simulacrum), Foresight (advantage on all rolls, 16 hours), Mage Armor, as well as 1-hour long buffs if you expect a fight soon (or just because, you know, you have so many slots). You could even cast Extended Enhance Ability (DEX) so you are sure to have advantage on Initiative in case you don't want to use Foresight for whatever reason.

2. When you need to take a short rest, cast Rope Trick or ritual cast LTH.

3. When you need to use high-level slots again, just cast Polymorph/Fly to either use the Tenser Disk's aerial cheese high in the sky (couldn't explain because it seemed so cheesy to me I didn't take teh time to understand in detail, but you can find it easily on forum) or burrow yourself far enough below the ground to dig a cavity small but large enough for you to cast LTH (although I wonder about air intake... Probably a bad idea unless you specify you dug your way while keeping a small air intake, but that's risky) or just cast a LTH / Magnificent Mansion depending on security assessment.

Once your fuel is back, step back 1 again.

(EDIT: Or, you know, even as a non-Necromancer such a Wizard could really get a really huge army to cover him and target his opponent, so obviously you'd have to artificially take that away...)

[Throne12]

Sorcerer wins he subtle cast greater Invisability. Then just run around casting magic missiles. Counter spelling when the enemy caster ttys anything big. But he need to be lucky and win int or the other caster don't open up with greater invisibility too.

[Foxhound438]

dwarven Str-war wizard casts antimagic field, and then runs up and beats the crap out of everything else. possibly hucks javelins if the enemy has started flying before hand, which would be pretty confusing on its own, since in 99% of magic duels you would want to concentrate on something else. Counterspell you say? well, he holds up a blanket in front of him as to not be seen while casting.

[mer.c]

Counterspell you say? well, he holds up a blanket in front of him as to not be seen while casting.

With a big, hairy Mage Hand for style points.

[noob]

With a big, hairy Mage Hand for style points.

I believed a dwarven beard was enough for hiding his casting.
Especially if it is a masterwork dwarven beard.

[Zanthy1]

I'm gonna go portent wizard (diviner) hands down. 1v1 duel, your your portent to win initiative, and control what spell saves are passed or failed

[JackPhoenix]

Valor bard. Antimagic field, proceed to stab the opponent to death with sharp piece of metal while you're immune to spells. Or shoot him to death with a longbow or hand crossbow, if you prefer.

But really, OP's scenario is so vague it may as well not exist. Rules, the battlefield, preparation time, equipment and other allowances... lot of things may change the outcome. But warlock is propably last in any case.

[Citan]

I'm gonna go portent wizard (diviner) hands down. 1v1 duel, your your portent to win initiative, and control what spell saves are passed or failed
Hmm...
I'm honestly not sure a Portent Wizard could win ANY Initiative contest. He could certainly make one of the three rolls high enough to win contest against "normal" characters... But against a properly Initiative-race character?
He'll probably lose.
He wants to max INT (2 ASI), take Resilient: Constitution (1 ASI), and probably Alert (1 ASI), lets say he uses the last on DEX.
Bonus to Initiative will be 4 (DEX) + 5 (Alert) = 9.
Chance to roll is basic.
Highest Initiative Wizard can hope is 29 with extreme luck.

Let's take the Half-Elf Lore Bard / Sorc 3 (ok, this is indeed a VERY specific one XD), which can maintain Foresight all day long thanks to alternance of Extend and rests, and took Alert (1 ASI) feat for good measure, as well as maxing CHA (2 ASI) and Resilient Wisdom (1 ASI), using last on whatever, let's say DEX.
Base bonus to Initiative check is 4 (DEX) + 2 (JoAT) + 5 (Alert) + 6 (average Peerless Skill) = 17.
Chance to roll is doubled thanks to Foresight.

So without even considering rolls, Wizard has a 8 difference to beat.
Bard has 91% chance to roll at least a 7, while Wizard has nearly the same chance of rolling at least 3.
Viewing instead per equal result, a 10, Bard has 80% chance instead of Wizard 55%.

Let's be very conservative and assume Bard rolled a 5 as the highest of both attempts, he has 22 Initiative.
Wizard does need 22-9=13 as a roll.
Chance to get this or higher, whether as a Portent roll or as the instant attempt, is 40%.

It's of course hard to try and modelize because Wizard can either affect his own roll or his opponent's roll, but not both at the same time.
If both roll poorly, Wizard will need decent luck on Portent (affect self with at least 10).
If both roll well, Wizard will need "decent unluck" on Portent (affect Bard with roll at least 8 inferior to its own result).
If Bard rolled well and Wizard rolled crap, Wizard will need great luck on Portent to get at least one of his roll in the big high or big low.

As long as you can choose the time of the fight, Diviner would have a pretty strong chance to win Initiative: just wait the right day.
But when facing a sudden opponent? Cannot theorycraft really.

[Zene]

<snip>

Pretty good stuff in there, just a couple notes/comments:

-Half-elves don’t get Trance

-Div is nice, but a war wizard has a built-in alert feat, and a bonus to saves (which when combined with the divine soul’s +2d4 to a save, is a pretty nice hedge against Heightened)

-Lore bard and sorcerer both have their advantages, but both are severely limited in spells known. A wizard with a tome of the stilled tongue (which no other class can use) and a full spellbook, has 100% access to the biggest and most diverse spell list in the game; and is the only one of the casters that can cast two 9ths (double wish, foresight+shapeshift, etc) or bonus action cast long-cast-time spells (antipathy, for example) on the fly without blowing wish on it. Sure in an arena with a win on the initiative roll a lore bard or sorcerer could beat a wizard; but with any kind of prep or a larger more varied battlefield (say, battle royale), my money’s on the wizard. Take away the tome of the stilled tongue (and the other classes’ best item) and it’s a much closer fight, but wizard still has the edge imo.

[Talamare]

If the fight is a 1vs1 with the goal to kill each other?

The Sorcerer will likely win. However this means nothing because this rarely to never happens in a session.


If the fight is a endurance race with several challenges presented and each Caster needs to use his spells to get thru each gauntlet?

The Wizard will likely win, but the Lore Bard will come close. This means everything because this is literally what playing the game is.

[Renduaz]

With preparation, the Wizard is a Deity. Simulacrum, Contingencies, Wish, Shapechange ( Deflecting everything with Legendary Resistance, and switching through the entire Ancient White/Ancient Brass then Adult dragons roster for unlimited legendary resistances ), and the Bladesinger can probably take on all the others with Antimagic. Although if someone uses Antimagic Field, just run away from him with your speed-empowered ( Long-Strider, Haste/Shapechange + Spell Mastery Misty Step ) magic and wait it out. Without magic he can never catch up.

Although most of this fight is probably going to be a slog of Counterspells and Dispel Magic's being thrown around. Without preparation, hard to say, it will really just be up to whoever can inflict the first Polymorph, or any other save-or-suck effect for that matter, but the divination Wizard probably still has the highest chance of succeeding at that. So the real answer would be Wizard.

[Foxhound438]

But warlock is propably last in any case.

This is agreeable to me, tbh. Warlock is better in a "ranged DPS" role than a "nuclear launch platform" role, due to their casting. Honestly they're better for extended adventuring days than single fights, due to their short rest recovery.

[TheUser]

I take it we are looking at pure classes? Because Multi-classes sort of ruin the idea of this thought experiment in that we want to evaluate the unique abilities of each.

My bet is on the Draconic Sorcerer.

None of these replies consider that a Draconic Sorcerer will be able to maintain flight whilst concentrating on any spell at the same time. The Draconic Sorcerer can be high above raining hell on the others and is never at risk of having their flight dispelled or reliant on their concentration to maintain a range advantage. When you remember that Sorcerers can double the range on any and all of their spells it becomes very relevant.

They can kite out the others as much as they want (eldritch spear warlock excluded but one cantrip does not win a fight) if you cast Greater Invisibility while 400ft above they will have a lot of trouble pinpointing which specific square the draconic sorcerer flew to from that far away. If the others attempt to dimension door to close the distance they must now make sure they have fly prepared in order to stay in close proximity and hope it doesn't get dispelled or their concentration doesn't get broken (20d6 to anything but the wizard with featherfall...which can be dispelled *snort*).

Now that you cannot identify a spell before countering it the Sorcerer is the only caster that can fake out a Wizard with a regular action cantrip (that baits out the counter) and then follows it up with a Quicken spell that they are certain won't be countered but also consumes a slot from the opponent and makes sure they don't have a reaction (for things like featherfall).

Subtle Spell means the Sorcerer has complete counterspell control, (can't counter a subtle spell) so if the others try to get close to stop being kited they are at a disadvantage once more.

If you start applying wish to any of this then the Sorcerer now has access to any level 8 spell combined with metamagic.

Lastly Heighten is a lot like Portent except it doesn't rely on luck in the slightest. It just makes it a lot harder for the enemy to save and is usable over and over again. Heighten Polymorph into Heighten Immolate or Heighten Disintegrate. Multiple attempts at easy wins.

[sithlordnergal]

1v1 with any multiclass and no-one thought to bring in Oath of Ancients Paladin / Bard multiclass? Just snag Circle of Power as soon as you can with Magical Secrets. Poof, now all magical damage is halved, you have advantage on all saving throws, your Cha bonus to all saving throws, high AC, healing, extra attack, Smite, Cutting Words, and if you succeed your saving throw you take no damage from a spell.

You barely need Xanathar's at all. It will just give you deadlier Bard spells. Now, I haven't seen the entire book of Xanathar's, but still.

Or go with the old classic, the Soradin.

[JMS]

On the paladin bard build, why not go one of hexblade, with Yuan-Ti as the race.

[sithlordnergal]

Well, I haven't fully seen Hexblade, but I mostly went for it because you can get the Charisma bonus to saves, resistance to all magical damage, and the 5th level Paladin spell Circle of Power. As far as I know, only Paladins and Bards have access to Circle of Power, and even then Bards have to use Magical Secrets at level 10 to get it.

And while Yuan-Ti do have advantage on all saves vs. magical effects, Circle of Power is better because it gives advantage to saves vs. magic and basically 3.5's Improved Evasion. Even if you fail the save with Circle of Power, you still only take half damage from the spell, which is halved again by the Oath of the Ancients Aura. And if you succeed you take no damage. Since advantage doesn't stack, the spell makes Yuan-Ti's racial resistance a bit pointless

As for why I didn't go Paladin/Hexblade, you gain more spells in a single fight with Paladin/Bard then you do Paladin/Warlock. Unless the Hexblade has a lot more spells, you only get about 3 Warlock spell slots at most for any single fight that need to be recharged on a short rest since you have to have 7 levels of Paladin for OtA's aura.

Finally, Bards get to add half of their Proficency bonus to their Initiative, helping to increase their chances of a higher spot on the turn order. And Paladins can take Defense fighting style. Provided nobody has magical items, that Paladin will have a baseline AC of 21, and if they snagged Shield from the Lore Bard's magical secrets that will jump to 26.

[Gtdead]

Feeblemind wins. Whoever can cast it more reliably.

Greater Invis counters anything else.
In any case, none can really answer this question unless you give very specific rules about engagement, preparation, arena size, etc.

I mean, a warlock can attack from half a mile away. A wizard can't. But perhaps a wizard can lure the warlock with illusions into a crossfire and kill him with upcasted magic missiles or a feeblemind.

[Renduaz]

Feeblemind wins. Whoever can cast it more reliably.

Greater Invis counters anything else.
In any case, none can really answer this question unless you give very specific rules about engagement, preparation, arena size, etc.

I mean, a warlock can attack from half a mile away. A wizard can't. But perhaps a wizard can lure the warlock with illusions into a crossfire and kill him with upcasted magic missiles or a feeblemind.

If your enemy fails a saving throw against you, it doesn't matter which spell you use. Feeblemind will in fact be a lesser choice to Imprisonment for example. A True Seeing spell will counter Greater Invisbility.

[noob]

A Lore Mastery wizard both have int to init and can transform the range of one spels above 30 foot in range into a 1 mile range one time per day.
Then probably grab another useful class who gives a bunch of cool stuff and you have a range advantage one time per day.

[JackPhoenix]

A Lore Mastery wizard both have int to init and can transform the range of one spels above 30 foot in range into a 1 mile range one time per day.
Then probably grab another useful class who gives a bunch of cool stuff and you have a range advantage one time per day.

There's no such thing as Lore Master wizard. Not in Xanathar, not in any other material. Sounds like some bad homebrew.

[noob]

I guess that https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_Wizrd_Wrlck_UAv2_i48nf.pdf
is homebrew.

[Talamare]

I guess that https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_Wizrd_Wrlck_UAv2_i48nf.pdf
is homebrew.

It's a beta, so kinda of like an official homebrew

[noob]

Well it is wizard of the coast content and the definition of homebrew is: stuff that have not been made by wizard of the coast.
Which is why April fool content from wizard of the coast is not considered homebrew even though it is very silly.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well it is wizard of the coast content and the definition of homebrew is: stuff that have not been made by wizard of the coast.
Which is why April fool content from wizard of the coast is not considered homebrew even though it is very silly.

Yeah, but in your link provided, it literally states

Playtest Material
The material here is presented for playtesting and to spark your imagination. These game mechanics are in draft form, usable in your campaign but not refined by design iterations or full game development. They aren’t officially part of the game and aren’t permitted in D&D Adventurers League events. If they become official, they will appear in a book.

Emphasis on the underlined portion. It's not official material, therefore might as well be homebrew. Now, homebrew by the designers of the game, which may or may not grant it more legitimacy in your eyes.

[Degwerks]

If your opponent is a Wizard you want Bard & Sorcerer levels. Using Counterspells, Forcecage and an Area of Effect spell. You also want Resilient Intelligence.

If your opponent is a Charisma caster you want Feeblemind and Counterspells and other Intelligence based save spells and Resilient Charisma.

All depends on who goes first and who is luckier with Counterspell.

Honestly I would be cheesy and get my initiative insanely high, have at least 2 levels of Bard and on my 1st turn use a Wish to make a Simulacrum of either me or the opponent. Good luck to the other guy trying to get anything past our counterspells.

[JackPhoenix]

Emphasis on the underlined portion. It's not official material, therefore might as well be homebrew. Now, homebrew by the designers of the game, which may or may not grant it more legitimacy in your eyes.

We've also got literal homebrew in UA article when MM pushed his Greyhawk Initiative.

[Klorox]

Got any evidence for this claim, or are you just repeating old argument from 3e days?

It’s the Batman argument, and it’s a valid one.

Every other spellcaster listed has a limited amount of known spells. The wizard, when given time to prepare, has an answer for *everything*