TPK: the aftermath

[Calthropstu]

So, the PCs are in a world saving adventure. They're in the final fight... a battle the entire world cannot afford them to lose.
And the bbeg mops the floor with them. How do you handle it as a gm? I can think of many great ways to do so, but I would like to hear how other gms might handle this.

[death390]

aw i came here for story time. but i suppose to answer the OP i would enable the BBEvil to complete their task whatever it is. next campaign would be a new set of anti/ hero's attempting to take down the big bad. honestly it is so completely dependent on the goal of the big bad. is it a wizard trying to take over the world? a trusted advisor performing a coup, a lich turning an entire city into his domain of death?

each of these has several interesting ways to go about making a new campaign.
a wizard taking over the world? a set of gods send their champions to find a way to stop him.
the coup? a set of guards trying to keep thier charge safe so he can retake the thrown.
the lich taking over a city? same as wizard or even a set of anti-heros steal one of the liches arttifacts that then cause them to be chased by the lich.

[Doctor Despair]

They lose, the bad guy wins. PC actions, victories, and defeats have consequence. If they can't lose, why roll? If you really don't want them to lose and want the campaign to end a certain way, ask them to put down the dice, narrate what happens, and ask what they want to do when appropriate.

[Mehangel]

Like death390, I was going to suggest that the BBEG won, and then have the next campaign start off 10, 20, 50, or 100 years after the BBEG's conquest. I would go into detail about how bad shape the world is in depending upon what the plan of the BBEG was, if it was truly necessary that the PC's win, make it clearly evident in the worlds new description. Maybe the PC's will never be able to restore the world to how it was before, but atleast they can prevent more harm from being done (if not to this world, than perhaps another).

[Doctor Despair]

On the topic of what comes next... a thought. Maybe have a prequel campaign, or a campaign that was ongoing at the same time as your current one. Hold that campaign and at the end of the "new" adventure... the new party is the deus ex machina to rescue the old one and clean up the situation. The players still have agency over the situation that way. Otherwise yeah, just advance the clock enough that a new party could conceivably crop up to clean things up.

[Xapi]

How about the new heroes finding a resistance underground movement to overthrow the BBEG that was inspired by the actions of the old PCs?

Maybe the Blacksmith NPC that crafted their weapons is now smuggling swords (and advice/information) to the Resistance. Or the stable boy that tended their horses before the final fight was inspired by them and is now the commander of the REsistance. Maybe the movement was founded by a barmaid who found the party's stash of coins and backup weapons in the rooms the old party rented, and used that money to fund the enterprise.

Also, perhaps something in the way the heroes went about facing the BBEG afected the BBEG him/herself, leaving an opening. Maybe s/he has a looser grip on the cities because his resources are focused in the farmlands where the old heroes where from (or viceversa). Maybe he spent resources fighting the heroes that he must now get back, and overplays his hand because of it. Maybe he was injured in the fight, which causes some of his minions to question if he is up to the task of ruling with an iron fist, leaving an opening for intra fighting that allows some plans against them to be available.

The point is: The heroes lost, and died. This doesn't mean that they didn't make an impact in society. If you make that impact clear and known in a new campaign, then maybe their tales will become not less epic, but more, because they sacrificed everything, and lost.

[Calthropstu]

How about the new heroes finding a resistance underground movement to overthrow the BBEG that was inspired by the actions of the old PCs?

Maybe the Blacksmith NPC that crafted their weapons is now smuggling swords (and advice/information) to the Resistance. Or the stable boy that tended their horses before the final fight was inspired by them and is now the commander of the REsistance. Maybe the movement was founded by a barmaid who found the party's stash of coins and backup weapons in the rooms the old party rented, and used that money to fund the enterprise.

Also, perhaps something in the way the heroes went about facing the BBEG afected the BBEG him/herself, leaving an opening. Maybe s/he has a looser grip on the cities because his resources are focused in the farmlands where the old heroes where from (or viceversa). Maybe he spent resources fighting the heroes that he must now get back, and overplays his hand because of it. Maybe he was injured in the fight, which causes some of his minions to question if he is up to the task of ruling with an iron fist, leaving an opening for intra fighting that allows some plans against them to be available.

The point is: The heroes lost, and died. This doesn't mean that they didn't make an impact in society. If you make that impact clear and known in a new campaign, then maybe their tales will become not less epic, but more, because they sacrificed everything, and lost.

Actually, I have been toying with this idea. First, the players build lvl 15 characters that are set up to fail. They are equipped with powerful items to take on the big bad, but they are betrayed and the bbeg knows they are coming. They walk into a nasty trap and get obliterated.

The actual campaign would start 5 years later, with the PCs being recruited by a small pocket of resistance fighting in a much darker setting.
Through the campaign they would find the items the former characters had on them with some of the more noteable henchmen.

[Eldariel]

Depends entirely on the BBEG. Maybe there's now a new evil God upsetting the balance of power. Maybe material plane finally had its Good wiped off it and the cosmic balance begins to teeter. Maybe an insignificant country was conquered. Maybe this BBEG now launches a second campaign to further consolidate their power. Maybe nothing of note happens other than a few fairly experienced warriors perish and their nemesis is finally free of the burden that has troubled them for so long. Maybe the world (on a level or another) just ends.

The bigger thing is, do the players want to continue playing? Playing the bad guys for a change in an evil vs. evil world (as evil-dominated worlds inevitably end up), playing the BBEG and their henchmen next campaign, playing a pack of magically elevated upstarts in the higher planes' desperate gambit to prevent the end of reality. Maybe the evil plan went wrong afterwards due to its own infeasibility/someone else thwarted it and the world isn't actually that different after all. Maybe the party is of a neighbouring city to try and reclaim the lost one. Or maybe the next campaign is God Slaying. Or maybe things just went so far down south that you describe the end of the world and move on to another campaign world/reset everything.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calthropstu
So, the PCs are in a world saving adventure. They're in the final fight... a battle the entire world cannot afford them to lose.
And the bbeg mops the floor with them. How do you handle it as a gm?

Is this something that just happened in your game, or are you doing some long-range contingency planning? I can’t tell from what you’ve posted.

Personally I like the idea that the original heroes, who sacrificed their lives to confront the BBEG, live on as inspiring legends during the horrors that follow, their memories helping keep alive some hope that eventually new heroes will rise to finish the task.

This way the players can have their epic deaths actually mean something to the world—and they also get to enjoy the remembrance of their characters as doomed heroes, their stories told in whispers or in deep catacombs. You can even develop a cult around the original heroes, keeping their legend alive as the BBEG tries to stamp out all evidence that they ever existed.

If you haven’t read it already, the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson explores this theme in depth, and follows a band of rebels fighting a hopeless battle against an evil overlord who took over the world many centuries ago. The series is excellent in itself, and there’s a lot of great ideas to draw on.

[Calthropstu]

Just to clarify, this is a thought exercise, not a thing that has actually happened. Blame holiday boredom. No work today so I figured I'd start a discussion.
Regardless, it's a topic that could be interesting, but seems everyone has the same answer... "depends on the bbeg."

So let's change it up. I'll make up 5 bbeg and let's see what people come up with.

1: An evil crature has supplanted the rightful government. The defeated PCs were the last hope of the government's restoration. Now any chance of restoration is gone and no one in the area that government ruled has the ability to stop the creature now.

2: An evil entity seeks to usurp the portfolio of a good deity. The PCs were the good god's champions and when they are defeated, the god falls too.

3: An evil entity seeks total world destruction. The PCs were the last best hope and they failed.

4: A kingdom has attacked another kingdom. The PCs were the defending kingdom's greatest champions. With their defeat, the attackers can take over with little oppisition enslaving the entire population.

5: The PCs were trying to stop the release of Rovagug and failed. Now the very gods are at war again.

[EisenKreutzer]

The world ends.

Sit down with your players and together narrate how the wold ends and what happens next. Come to a conclusion you are all satisfied with.

Then start a new campaign.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calthropstu
3: An evil entity seeks total world destruction. The PCs were the last best hope and they failed.

This is pretty much the background to the Mistborn series. (Not really a spoiler, it’s on the back cover.)


Originally Posted by Calthropstu
5: The PCs were trying to stop the release of Rovagug and failed.

Play Starfinder. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer
Sit down with your players and together narrate how the wold ends and what happens next.

Actually, I wouldn’t approach it this way.

Rather, when the original PCs fall, I would describe how—through their glazing eyes, dimming with tears of rage and regret—they see the first fiery wave unleashed by the ascendant overlord, and how their world goes dark in a scream of fire and ash.

Then, when the new campaign starts, let the players slowly come to understand what has befallen, as their new characters explore the world reshaped according to the overlord’s grand plan. Let them wander through the wreckage of places their first characters knew before; like the children in Prince of Narnia, let them find small things that once were theirs, like chess pieces scattered in an overgrown ruin.

Let the players earn their understanding of the history of the ruined world, by taking them through everything that was once familiar and which now has been destroyed. If you built the world convincingly in the first campaign arc, and gave them reasons to care about it, then the players will infuse their new characters with a powerful urge to destroy the tyrant. The campaign should propel itself from there.

[Guinea_Pig]

Another interesting option might be to keep the current defeated PCs around, and let them experience the consequences of their defeat long-term. Maybe they return as ghosts following their defeat, forced to watch the consequences of their failures, and only passing on to the afterlife by finally defeating the villain who killed them. Or maybe the villain imprisons them for years, and when the PCs are finally freed, they find the world has changed so much that they scarcely recognize it.

[malloc]

1: An evil crature has supplanted the rightful government. The defeated PCs were the last hope of the government's restoration. Now any chance of restoration is gone and no one in the area that government ruled has the ability to stop the creature now.

No one in the area has the power, but everyone together might. The players go underground to sow the seeds of revolution among the population. They'll need to find a cause to rally behind, a champion that the population can believe in (or a figurehead, or an ideal), and they'll need to have an impetus, possibly a bloody one--something that will motivate the population to rise as one and revolt. Oh, and of course they'll need to find equipment with which to fight the inevitable power, or how to seal it back from wherever it came.


2: An evil entity seeks to usurp the portfolio of a good deity. The PCs were the good god's champions and when they are defeated, the god falls too.

Now you have a bunch of ex-paladins, essentially. If the players are still alive, level them backwards and let them pick new classes that are appropriate, or commit themselves to new patrons. The loss of levels represents their transition period from losing the divine abilities and gaining favor with their new lords (or with their new skills). Now I'd imagine the characters have 1 thing on their mind--revenge.

Alternatively, have one of the characters (the most devout) survive, broken and bloodied. Let the next generation meet that character and learn of how things were before the new god rose to power. It might motivate them to restore order to the cosmos ;)


3: An evil entity seeks total world destruction. The PCs were the last best hope and they failed.

The world is a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Read something like Way of the Wolf (E.E. Knight) or The Warded Man (Peter Brett) to get a feel for a wasteland setting, where mankind is constantly running from the things that have destroyed our world. It's super alien things in Way of the Wolf and more classic demons in Warded Man, but both are excellently written and give the gritty feeling of humanity struggling to survive. One of my favorite genres.

Or you could do a multiverse thing like Marvel and have PCs from another plane see the problem this destruction has caused and rally together to jump through planes and hunt down this creature before it can destroy the multiverse.


4: A kingdom has attacked another kingdom. The PCs were the defending kingdom's greatest champions. With their defeat, the attackers can take over with little oppisition enslaving the entire population.

Underground resistance, a la #1, or just have the players escape and run around the rest of the world.


5: The PCs were trying to stop the release of Rovagug and failed. Now the very gods are at war again.

Begin campaign #2 :P

Obviously the players pick sides and are championed by the gods, given holy quests to obtain artifacts and relics that will help their benefactors gain the necessary strength to seal away Rovagug again.

[BWR]

Play Starfinder. :smalltongue:



This is how the Gap came about.

[elanfanboy]

Wow! After reading this, i kind of want the PCs to lOse now! :}

[Jay R]

Ask the players what they think. Then make your plans your way, having considered all their input.

That could be the end of the game, and the world.
It could lead to their adventures in the afterlife as angels.
Maybe they play a new group, who grew up hearing the sad tale of the old adventurers, and about the heroic victory of the group that came after them, saving the world after that party died.

Actions have consequences. Your job isn't to prevent that. It's to make those consequences lead to new and better challenges.

After a TPK, the PCs could wake up naked and chained to an oar. From other galley slaves, they learn that the BBEG succeeded, and conquered the world instead of destroying it, and you are now rowing on one of his warships. The other slaves are other heroes who defied him.

This provides a slave revolt to organize, a ship to take over, and a larger group of heroes with which to eventually try again.

[Zaq]

I say it depends less on the BBEG and more on the campaign itself and the group. I'd handle it differently with a tight-knit group of characters that had been working together with few to no major character swaps for ten consecutive on-screen levels than with a group that was less tight-knit, for example. In a case like the former, I'd contemplate starting a new and unrelated campaign rather than try to have the same kind of experiences in a world that really felt (to the players) like it belonged to that specific group of characters than to the "adventurer(s) of the week."

I'd handle it differently if the PCs had grown to be the biggest power-players (aside, apparently, from the BBEG) in their sphere of influence than if they were small fish in a big pond right through the fateful encounter. If the PCs were small fish in a big pond, then maybe they weren't the Chosen Ones who represented the World's Last Hope, and maybe another group could take over and deal with a similar plot (but hopefully from a slightly different angle), but if the PCs were the strongest forces of Good (or maybe not Good) around, then maybe it'd feel more appropriate to bring in a new group at a lower level (if, and this is an enormous if, the players would find it fun to do so, because not everyone enjoys feeling like their power level has slid backwards, character death or no character death) rather than try to explain why the B-Team wasn't involved in the first place. (Alternatively, if it is more fun to explain why the B-Team wasn't involved in the first place, we can do that, you know?)

I'd handle it differently if the BBEG felt like the kind of thing that other in-universe people would be simultaneously aware of and unhappy with than if the PCs had needed to spend a lot of effort even finding out that the evil scheme existed. Just because the PCs died doesn't mean that the BBEG's scheme will succeed unopposed, after all, but maybe the BBEG's scheme isn't even that important if you aren't, just for example, invested in the fate of the deposed royal clan of dwarves from Deep Mountain or a fervent follower of a specific god or interested in the goings-on of a specific guild. Maybe the world isn't necessarily going to end, or maybe there's other folks around who are equally interested in the BBEG's goings-on as the PCs were.

I'd handle it differently if the PCs had a network of friends and allies than if they were a bunch of antisocial murderhoboes who didn't even try to get on the good side of NPCs who weren't going to directly pay them to kill things. If there's some kind of on-screen alliance of people who would miss the PCs, it can feel somewhat natural to pull the successors from that group; if the PCs pissed off everyone they didn't kill, then it's less natural to have folks motivated to avenge them or to finish their work.

Basically, assuming that you've decided to keep playing (as opposed to moving to a different game, passing the GM hat, etc.), you've got to decide whether or not you're keeping the same world at all, whether or not you're going to have the plot of the new chapter be directly related to the plot of the previous chapter, whether or not the PCs' successors will personally know about or care about the original TPK victims, whether or not the PCs were the only ones preventing the BBEG's scheme from succeeding, whether or not said scheme will have succeeded by the time the camera focuses on the new party, how much time you want to have pass in-universe, whether or not the new group is expected to have the same (or similar) motivations as the original group, and so on. None of those are automatic choices, and it's a very organic kind of decision that really shouldn't even come down to any sort of rule you lay out ahead of time. What feels right in one situation might not feel right in another.