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JNAProductions
2017-11-24, 01:51 PM
Magic Missile V1
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time 1 Action
Range 60'
Components V, S
Duration Instantaneous

You create a single glowing dart of magical force that strikes a creature within range that you can see. Make a spell attack roll with advantage. A dart deals 1d6 points of force damage, though this increases to 2d6 at level 5, 3d6 at level 11, and 4d6 at level 17.



Magic Missile V2
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time 1 Action
Range 60'
Components V, S
Duration Instantaneous

You create a single glowing dart of magical force that strikes a creature within range that you can see. Make a spell attack roll with advantage. A dart deals 1d4 points of force damage. You create two missiles at level 5, three at level 11, and four at level 17. All darts strike their target simultaneously.

Firebolt is the base. 1d10 damage.
Drop to 1d8 and halve range for a MUCH better damage type.
Then, drop to 1d6 for auto-hitting, which I value about the same as a rider.

Now, you're generally supposed to hit on an 8, so 1d6*.65 is our ACTUAL average damage we want, for 2.275 average. Let's round up, to 2.5, which is 1d4.

V2 is lower because of interactions with multiple attacks, so rounding down instead.

khadgar567
2017-11-24, 02:16 PM
merge both let the best magic in dnd become king again

JNAProductions
2017-11-24, 02:25 PM
merge both let the best magic in dnd become king again

No. Multiple missiles have advantages over one, and I'm CERTAINLY not giving multiple missiles with multiple dice of damage as a cantrip.

AvatarVecna
2017-11-24, 02:46 PM
Magic Missile V1
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time 1 Action
Range 60'
Components V, S
Duration Instantaneous

You create a single glowing dart of magical force that unerringly strikes a creature within range that you can see. A dart deals 1d4 points of force damage, though this increases to 2d4 at level 5, 3d4 at level 11, and 4d4 at level 17.



Magic Missile V2
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time 1 Action
Range 60'
Components V, S
Duration Instantaneous

You create a single glowing dart of magical force that unerringly strikes a creature within range that you can see. A dart deals 1d3 points of force damage. You create two missiles at level 5, three at level 11, and four at level 17. All darts strike their target simultaneously.

So, here's my problem with these spells: as your math roughly shows, 1d3 multiple attacks auto-hitting is roughly equivalent to 1d6 requiring a hit, assuming average to-hit requirements. This is fair for most games, but leaves you with a cantrip that is the mathematical equivalent of "multiple spell attacks vs AC to deal 1d6 force damage each", which is pretty crap for a cantrip. That's essentially Eldritch Blast 2 damage steps lower because you get to theoretically hit Tiamat at lvl 1...which is why this spell won't see actual play. Who cares if gods can't dodge your cantrips when you don't fight gods on account of getting instantly wrecked by them? And vs opponents you actually face, you shouldn't have enough problems hitting them with regular cantrips that you need this one's autohitting, which means you're just giving up damage for the ability to theoretically not be useless against beings much more powerful than you have any right to be in combat with.

Of course, this kind of spell would come up all the time in theorycrafting for "how can I kill a god in 5e E6?" or whatever, where the answer would be "throw 100 Wizard 1s with that magic missile cantrip. 100d4 Force damage per round isn't too shabby, and who cares what their AC or saves are like?"

A spell that rewards theorycrafting use and punishes real-game use is a bad spell. A spell that rewards realistic use and super-rewards theorycrafting is only slightly, better, which is why I'm not gonna suggest "just make the damage more competitive with other cantrips", because making it more powerful for both fixes one problem while making the other even worse.

Honestly, I don't think at-will automatic damage should be an option for any class. Wizard 18 can spam 1st lvl Magic Missile, sure, but that's 18th lvl, a slightly more powerful combat "cantrip" is vaguely acceptable at that level. If I was remaking this spell, I would probably bump the damage up to 1d6 (for the single hit) or 1d4 (for the multihit) and turn the autohitting into advantage on the spell attack. That gives real players a high-accuracy low-damage cantrip (that isn't nerfed into the ground to make up for theoretical ability to autohit gods), while taking away a broken theorycrafting tool and requiring armchair optimizers to actually work a bit harder to kill gods in 5e E6. :smalltongue:


Firebolt is the base. 1d10 damage.
Drop to 1d8 and halve range for a MUCH better damage type.
Then, drop to 1d6 for auto-hitting, which I value about the same as a rider.

Now, you're generally supposed to hit on an 8, so 1d6*.65 is our ACTUAL average damage we want, for 2.275 average. Let's round up, to 2.5, which is 1d4.

V2 is lower because of interactions with multiple attacks, so rounding down instead.

I'm gonna be totally honest, if Firebolt is the balance point for cantrip, the basic Eldritch Blast should probably be a lot worse based on what your math explanation here says. Like, EB should be 1d6 or something.

JNAProductions
2017-11-24, 02:51 PM
Edited the OP.

To be fair, you can get Tiamat dead with 100 1st level Wizards anyway, just by having them cast Magic Missile as a first level spell, but point taken.

And were Eldritch Blast to be available more widely, yes, it should be weaker. But it's Warlock exclusive, so I think it's okay.

AvatarVecna
2017-11-24, 03:34 PM
Edited the OP.

To be fair, you can get Tiamat dead with 100 1st level Wizards anyway, just by having them cast Magic Missile as a first level spell, but point taken.

And were Eldritch Blast to be available more widely, yes, it should be weaker. But it's Warlock exclusive, so I think it's okay.

That is - for the most part - not how 5e balances things. The edition is, for the most part, pretty good at keeping a lvl X spell on one list equivalent to a lvl X spell on another list that serves a similar function. 5e protects niches not by giving one class sole access to objectively better spells, but by giving them sole access to a class feature that improved those spells.

Wizards don't make good necromancers because they have access to a slightly better version of Animate Dead, they make good necromancers because they can take an archetype that makes them significantly better at raising dead. Wizards are considered better necromancers than Clerics because Clerics don't get that kind of thing. Life clerics are far and away the best healers in the game, not because they get secret access to better healing spells, but because their class features enhance the "for everybody" healing spells, they do the job better.

And the reason this is a good way to go about things is because spell lists are mutable, to a degree. It's too easy to make arguments for Spell X being on List Y even though it's not, and there's more than a couple ways to get spells of your choice that aren't normally on your list (Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, and Magical Secrets come to mind). A Lore Bard 6 taking their first magical secrets can snipe 3rd lvl spells from any list, and (since it's something the bard list lacks a lot), they go for a blasting spell; shouldn't they have to actually hem and haw over options, rather than just selecting a spell that's objectively superior to all the competition? Sure, and that's why 3rd lvl blasting spells are largely pretty balanced against each other. So why is it different for this particular cantrip? If a lvl decides to pick up a combat cantrip via Magic Initiate (unlikely) or Spell Sniper (more likely), they're only gonna hem and haw about whether they want to make the optimal choice, because there's no arguing which one that is. Here's what you can expect each of these spells to max out at (all of which are theoretically equally valid pure-damage options):



Spell Name
Acid Splash
Eldritch Blast
Fire Bolt
Poison Spray
Sacred Flame


Range
30 ft
120 ft
120 ft
10 ft
60 ft


Attack/Save Vs
Dex
AC
AC
Con
Dex


Number Of Targets
1 (maybe 2)
4
1
1
1


Damage Amount
4d6
1d10
4d10
4d12
4d8


Damage Type
Acid
Force
Fire
Poison
Radiant



There's a couple of those you could argue are better on the pure damage part of the spell than Eldritch Blast: Acid Splash can potentially hit two people next to each other, dealing a potential total 8d6 acid to EB's 4d10 force , while Poison Spray deals 4d12 poison. That being said, the range on PS is pitiful, Con saves are common for monsters, and poison is a common resistance (and is even an immunity for a number of creature types). Meanwhile, Acid Splash has slightly better (but still "keeping you close to combat") range and deals Acid anyway (which isn't a common resistance/immunity but is certainly more common than Force). The most comparable spell of the lot is Firebolt, which targets AC and deals 4d10 like EB does, but it deals Fire damage (a far more common resistance/immunity than Force) and is all focused on one target (so EB can be spread around where Firebolt can't, but can focus fire just as well). Anybody sniping combat cantrips has an objectively superior pure-damage option, and if all the ones with riders on them are considered equivalent to those, EB's better than them too.

Talamare
2017-11-24, 04:34 PM
v3
Mini Magic Missile
Create a Magic Missile that auto hits a target for 1 damage
At higher levels you create additional Missiles

If you're not Auto Hitting, you're not using Magic Missile


Edit
v4
Magic Punch
Auto hit a target at melee range for d4 damage
At higher levels you throw additional punches that can target additional targets

RazDelacroix
2017-11-24, 11:53 PM
I look at this, and I am now considering reworking the ole 3.5 edition Reserve Feats as cantrips. Thank you! I'll check back on your Mini-Magic-Missile-Massacre-Merriment Cantrip later!