Army Across Time + Coven Hex?

[EisenKreutzer]

So, I recently stumbled across this particular combo in an online discussion, which is supposed to massively boost your effective caster level by combining the Coven hex (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/hexes/common-hexes/hex-coven-ex/) with the spell Army Across Time (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Army%20Across%20Time).

This combo does not work by RAW, right? I’m not crazy here?

Army Across Time specifies that the summoned copy of yourself shares your statistics, and then goes on to specify that the clone also has all your teamwork feats.

I interpret this to mean that the clone shares your stats, height, wheight and so on, but does not share your class abilities, spells or regular feats. Which means the copies do not have acces to the Coven hex, and thus cannot use the Aid Another action to increase your spell level.

Is this a correct interpretation?

[Psyren]

Depends on how your GM defines "statistics."

[Necroticplague]

What Psyren said. They use the term with some frequency, but never really define it.

However, there is the problem where that spell doesn't appear on the Witch's spell list, even if it does work.

[Vhaidara]

However, there is the problem where that spell doesn't appear on the Witch's spell list, even if it does work.

List poaching is as simple as picking the Samsaran race in PF (Mystic Past Life racial feature), so this is hardly a barrier

[The Mystic]

Games I've been involved in don't tend to make being Samsaran "Simple" but yeah, there are plenty of ways to get a hold of such a spell if you're determined.

For RAW, Psyren's definitely right. I would probably make my argument that it isn't RAW, because despite the creature having your statistics they separately mention "...and has any teamwork feats you have" which seems to imply that it doesn't have your other feats, and thus probably not your class abilities.

It's also almost certainly not RAI.

So the major question remains, should a GM allow it?

The spell is available at level 7 at the soonest at which point it grants a +2 to your caster level for rounds/level
At level 9, when it's more likely available, it grants a +3 to your caster level.
At level 12 it's a +4
At level 15 it's a +5
At level 18 it's a +6

Those are some pretty nice bonuses to caster level. But on the flip side, it's cost you a standard action to set up, or it's a 9th level spell when quickened. Between those I'd call the spell very good, but I don't think it blows comparable options out of the water honestly. I'd probably allow it for somebody I felt I could trust to use it for awesome moments, rather than as a standard combat tactic. I've recently been playing as a Mythic Arcanist who's been able to boost his caster level by at least +4 with minimal effort and, except in a few cases where you're trying to raise a threshold, or use Gate to summon and control something silly like the Demon Lord Baphomet (30 HD), it was mostly a nice to have, rather than a game changer, particularly at higher levels where this tactic was more viable.

[Florian]

I don´t think it will actually work.

On its own, the Coven hex only allows to join a hag coven with at least one real hag present. This can be circumvented by using a Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven. At that point, we don´t know two things: Do the statistics include the Coven hex and what action is it to "join a coven".

Going by the Blood of the Coven entry for "Changeling Covens" (p. 13), it takes a one hour ritual to form up a coven.

[ATHATH]

Can we all just take a moment to appreciate how friggin' cool the Ally Across Time and Army Across Time spells are? Imagine combining them with a class or feat chain that gives you some neato passive auras...

Personally, I'd say that the summoned copies do get all of your abilities, and that the mention of teamwork feats is just a clarification. Not interpreting "statistics" to mean "(your) stat block" would raise quite a few issues about what "statistics" actually means, and I'm not sure that resolutions to those issues are available from/by RAW.

[EisenKreutzer]

The core rulebook usually uses the term «statistics» when referring to your ability scores, hit points, AC and saves. It uses the term «abilities» to refer to anything else, and «abilities and statistics» when refering to both.

As a rules term it is very weakly defined, but I would rule that given the clarification of teamwork feats in the spell, it does not cnfer any feats, class abilities, spells or other abilities to the summoned copy.

[Florian]

Another very confusing point is equipment. While the spell states that the duplicate comes equipped, but the equipment is unusable. I wonder whether that means that weapon, armor and the basic Big Six don´t work, or whether that is part of statistics and the clause simply means that the duplicate can´t use scrolls and such.

[The Mystic]

I don´t think it will actually work.

On its own, the Coven hex only allows to join a hag coven with at least one real hag present. This can be circumvented by using a Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven. At that point, we don´t know two things: Do the statistics include the Coven hex and what action is it to "join a coven".

Going by the Blood of the Coven entry for "Changeling Covens" (p. 13), it takes a one hour ritual to form up a coven.

Oh, it definitely won't work for this. The spell heads it off at the pass with the copies only being able to aid another, which joining a coven most certainly isn't. Now that would be a broken combination.


Can we all just take a moment to appreciate how friggin' cool the Ally Across Time and Army Across Time spells are?

Absolutely. In the end one of the reasons I thought I'd argue that despite my interpretation of RAW and RAI I would probably permit this is the idea of having a line of six of you standing behind the actual combatant you, monotonously chanting in ominous latin while your caster level goes through the roof and you start slinging more damage than ever before.

[Psyren]

The core rulebook usually uses the term «statistics» when referring to your ability scores, hit points, AC and saves. It uses the term «abilities» to refer to anything else, and «abilities and statistics» when refering to both.

As a rules term it is very weakly defined, but I would rule that given the clarification of teamwork feats in the spell, it does not cnfer any feats, class abilities, spells or other abilities to the summoned copy.

Yep. Asked and answered?

[ATHATH]

Can we send a tweet to a developer to ask what they define "statistics" as for the purposes of this spell? Maybe we could get an FAQ ruling?

[Psyren]

Can we send a tweet to a developer to ask what they define "statistics" as for the purposes of this spell? Maybe we could get an FAQ ruling?

Sure you can!

[ATHATH]

Sure you can!
But I don't have a Twitter account...

[EisenKreutzer]

Yep. Asked and answered?

I think so. Seems like other people agree with this ruling as well, so I’m satisfied.

[Psyren]

But I don't have a Twitter account...

They're free IIRC.


I think so. Seems like other people agree with this ruling as well, so I’m satisfied.

It's how I would rule, for whatever that's worth.

[Necroticplague]

The core rulebook usually uses the term «statistics» when referring to your ability scores, hit points, AC and saves. It uses the term «abilities» to refer to anything else, and «abilities and statistics» when refering to both.

As a rules term it is very weakly defined, but I would rule that given the clarification of teamwork feats in the spell, it does not confer any feats, class abilities, spells or other abilities to the summoned copy.

What if you have an ability that modifies a statistic*? Would the temporal replicsimile have the ability (thus, violating your ruling), or would it not (thus violating the spell's statement that it has your statistics?

*=,such as Protection Domain granted power, Divine Grace, or Iron Will?

[Psyren]

What if you have an ability that modifies a statistic*? Would the temporal replicsimile have the ability (thus, violating your ruling), or would it not (thus violating the spell's statement that it has your statistics?

It could just have your statistics without the abilities that led to them, thus preventing a violation.

In this particular case though, their statistics (whichever you decide on) are unlikely to be relevant, as the clones only last during your turn and can only Aid Another.

[EisenKreutzer]

What if you have an ability that modifies a statistic*? Would the temporal replicsimile have the ability (thus, violating your ruling), or would it not (thus violating the spell's statement that it has your statistics?

*=,such as Protection Domain granted power, Divine Grace, or Iron Will?

Fringe cases like these are always difficult to adjudicate correctly, but in this case I'd say the clone would have your modified statistics, but not the abilities that led to your modified statistics.

[ATHATH]

Fringe cases like these are always difficult to adjudicate correctly, but in this case I'd say the clone would have your modified statistics, but not the abilities that led to your modified statistics.
What if you have, say, an ability that gives you a +2 bonus to AC against Evil creatures? Does your duplicate get a flat +2 to AC, no bonus to AC, or a +2 bonus to AC against Evil creatures only?

What if you have an ability that gives you a permanent Protection from Evil effect? A permanent Shield effect? A permanent Mage Armor effect?

[Psyren]

What if you have, say, an ability that gives you a +2 bonus to AC against Evil creatures? Does your duplicate get a flat +2 to AC, no bonus to AC, or a +2 bonus to AC against Evil creatures only?

What if you have an ability that gives you a permanent Protection from Evil effect? A permanent Shield effect? A permanent Mage Armor effect?

Why would the answer be any different for those?

[EisenKreutzer]

What if you have, say, an ability that gives you a +2 bonus to AC against Evil creatures? Does your duplicate get a flat +2 to AC, no bonus to AC, or a +2 bonus to AC against Evil creatures only?

What if you have an ability that gives you a permanent Protection from Evil effect? A permanent Shield effect? A permanent Mage Armor effect?

+2 vs. Evil creaures is not an ability, it is granted by an ability. I feel that puts it in the realm of statistics. As for the other spells, my answer is the same as the post you quoted.

[ATHATH]

Why would the answer be any different for those?
Some of them have conditional effects, and the constant-spell abilities straddle the line between "ability" and (your definition of) "statistic".

[Psyren]

Some of them have conditional effects, and the constant-spell abilities straddle the line between "ability" and (your definition of) "statistic".

*points at Eisenkreutzer's post*

[ATHATH]

Hm. I think you've persuaded me.