True Polymorph Conundrum

[saeval]

So, player casts True Polymorph, and decides to become a gold dragon. player has been a dragon for a time skip of like, 3 years now. Dragon life is good. Suddenly a larger evil dragon ambushes player on a hunt, wins the fight, dropping the player to 0 HP. what happens?

a 2014 sage advice says that if you are dropped to 0 HP, you don't turn back, only a magical dispelling will revert your form.

a 2017 sage advice clarifies that when True Polymorph becomes "permanent" permanent means the spell is permanent specifically, not the transformation. (hence being able to dispel it..)

neither of these implicitly contradicts the other, but the rule clarification that the spell is permanent and not the transformation.. leaves grey area that you could potentially then revert back to your original form per regular polymorph spell rules.

How would you have this play out at your table? Assuming the player is perfectly fine with any outcome you present. (this is entirely hypothetical)

[Mith]

So, player casts True Polymorph, and decides to become a gold dragon. player has been a dragon for a time skip of like, 3 years now. Dragon life is good. Suddenly a larger evil dragon ambushes player on a hunt, wins the fight, dropping the player to 0 HP. what happens?

a 2014 sage advice says that if you are dropped to 0 HP, you don't turn back, only a magical dispelling will revert your form.

a 2017 sage advice clarifies that when True Polymorph becomes "permanent" permanent means the spell is permanent specifically, not the transformation. (hence being able to dispel it..)

neither of these implicitly contradicts the other, but the rule clarification that the spell is permanent and not the transformation.. leaves grey area that you could potentially then revert back to your original form per regular polymorph spell rules.

How would you have this play out at your table? Assuming the player is perfectly fine with any outcome you present. (this is entirely hypothetical)

I would say that holding the spell for the original full duration completes the transformation, and it is now permanent. I would treat True Polymorph as "You choose your own reincarnation" sort of deal.

Granted this contradicts the fact that it can be dispelled by dispel magic, which I think is silly, since the spell has ended by the end of the hour. If dispel magic cannot break the magical effects of a magic item, I do not think it should break a permanent True Polymorph.

[Unoriginal]

So, player casts True Polymorph, and decides to become a gold dragon. player has been a dragon for a time skip of like, 3 years now. Dragon life is good. Suddenly a larger evil dragon ambushes player on a hunt, wins the fight, dropping the player to 0 HP. what happens?

a 2014 sage advice says that if you are dropped to 0 HP, you don't turn back, only a magical dispelling will revert your form.

a 2017 sage advice clarifies that when True Polymorph becomes "permanent" permanent means the spell is permanent specifically, not the transformation. (hence being able to dispel it..)

neither of these implicitly contradicts the other, but the rule clarification that the spell is permanent and not the transformation.. leaves grey area that you could potentially then revert back to your original form per regular polymorph spell rules.

How would you have this play out at your table? Assuming the player is perfectly fine with any outcome you present. (this is entirely hypothetical)

I would say you turn back into your original form. But when you're being killed by a larger evil dragon, you're 3 years out of practice for all your basic bodily function, let alone your magic, and you're alone, you die anyway.

[saeval]

I would say you turn back into your original form. But when you're being killed by a larger evil dragon, you're 3 years out of practice for all your basic bodily function, let alone your magic, and you're alone, you die anyway.

I agree, the horrible, horrible death is not something likely avoided no matter the ruling, considering if it is a caster, it wouldn't have any spells prepped etc either.

I dunno. the spell being dispel-able really throws me off in how it operates. If you just look at the original wording it does seem to say the transformation itself is permanent... but they have gone back and said that permanent is referring to the spell... which again brings up the "well what about the rest of the spell, turning you back into your original form" stuff.

[Unoriginal]

Imagine that as the classic "Prince turned into a toad". The spell itself has ended (as in, the caster is no longer casting), and the effects are normaly permanent, but you can still do things that disrupt the magic.

[The1exile]

If you have polymorphed over the hour limit of True Polymorph, that’s your shape now and you keep it when you die and when you are resurrected. The only way you lose it is if it is dispelled or you are polymorphed again into something different.

So in this case, your guy living as a dragon is now just a dead dragon and should have learned a valuable lesson about giving up being an Archmage in the first place.

[Millstone85]

I forgot, what happens if you cast dispel magic on the dead dragon?

[Avonar]

If you have polymorphed over the hour limit of True Polymorph, that’s your shape now and you keep it when you die and when you are resurrected. The only way you lose it is if it is dispelled or you are polymorphed again into something different.

So in this case, your guy living as a dragon is now just a dead dragon and should have learned a valuable lesson about giving up being an Archmage in the first place.

Wait, what? Why would this happen?

The spell becomes permanent after an hour yes, but it is still a spell. They are still polymorphed, they have not magically become a natural dragon. If they drop to 0HP as a dragon, however long that takes, surely the normal rules apply and you revert your form?

[cuddlerooster]

Right, the spell is permanent. It can be dispelled because it's the spell that's permanent, meaning it's effect is permanent (until dispelled). Treat it as a spell with infinite duration. It doesn't change the fact it is a spell, just after an hour it's duration becomes infinite, no concentration needed.

[Darkstar952]

Right, the spell is permanent. It can be dispelled because it's the spell that's permanent, meaning it's effect is permanent (until dispelled). Treat it as a spell with infinite duration. It doesn't change the fact it is a spell, just after an hour it's duration becomes infinite, no concentration needed.

Except that is not what the spell text says, the spell lasts for one hour of concentration. at the end of the hour it specifically says the transformation is permanent unless dispelled, it makes no mention that it is the spell itself that is permanent.

If the intention was that it was the spell that was permanent with all the other conditions of the spell continuing to be effective, then that is what the text would read. You are choosing to read something into it that is not there.

[Unoriginal]

True Polymorph

The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, the transformation becomes permanent.


It seems to me like this means that while the Duration changes from "1 hour" to "permanent (no Concentration)", it does not remove the " until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies" clause.

[Millstone85]

Except that is not what the spell text says, the spell lasts for one hour of concentration. at the end of the hour it specifically says the transformation is permanent unless dispelled, it makes no mention that it is the spell itself that is permanent.It say both, actually. First it refers to the transformation becoming permanent, or lasting until dispelled in later printings, and then in the "Object into Creature" section it says that "If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature".

If you still regard the transformation as distinct from the spell, then I guess you keep control of the creature when the duration runs out but lose control when some other circumstances make the spell itself permanent.

[RSP]

I'd say the Caster reverts to their true form when the Dragon form reaches 0 HPs. Referencing this:

"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled."

The second sentence appears to refer back to the "duration" part of the first sentence. I take this as a clarification on what the duration entails, that is, duration is either (up to 1 hour) or (permanent until dispelled).

Interestingly, the permanent duration does not state it ends the need for Concentration. Not sure on RAI, but RAW it looks like concentration continues "until it is dispelled," or you break Concentration (as nothing in the spell changes the rules of Concentration).

[Keral]

Interestingly, the permanent duration does not state it ends the need for Concentration. Not sure on RAI, but RAW it looks like concentration continues "until it is dispelled," or you break Concentration (as nothing in the spell changes the rules of Concentration).

If that would be intended it would be totally silly. If I understand correctly, reading it like that means that it lasts for as long as you concentrate, up to one hour. Except if the hour passes and the spell is still going then the duration changes to concentration, up to untill you lose concentration? Might as well have said duration: concentration.

[RSP]

If that would be intended it would be totally silly. If I understand correctly, reading it like that means that it lasts for as long as you concentrate, up to one hour. Except if the hour passes and the spell is still going then the duration changes to concentration, up to untill you lose concentration? Might as well have said duration: concentration.

Again, RAI I'm not going to disagree with you, however, RAW, I'm looking at a spell like Major Illusion which specifically states Concentration is no longer needed:

"At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your Concentration."

Nothing in the TP write up states this or something similar.

[Keral]

Yes, don't take me wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that if that was the intent it was a very silly way to prhase things. XD