Why is Lore Bard overpowered?

[snafuy]

I get why Hexblade's front-loading is OP. Way too much stuff at 1st level, especially compared to other Warlock patrons.

Likewise for Moon Druid, although only half as much since it's 2nd level and doesn't work as well for dipping.

Divination Wizard? Yes, forcing the result of a couple hits or saves per day, I see how that can be amazing.

Is Lore Bard considered the same due to Cutting Words? It doesn't seem quite as powerful to me. It can't hurt saves, and it's just a chance, not a guarantee. Valor Bard's Combat Inspiration (add to AC vs subtract from attack roll, same math) doesn't seem that much weaker.

Or is it about the front-loaded bonus proficiencies, making Bard 3 a multiclass splash?

[Lombra]

Bard is not strong because it's front-loaded. Magical secrets is the deal that makes it that useful. In fact, it's not a class that you often want to use as a dip for few levels.

[nickl_2000]

Lore bards power comes from
-cutting words
-the versatility of magical secrets. They can literally do anything with it.
-the magical instruments is the bards

[Finger6842]

Lore Bard is not a powerful class in and of itself, it's just the most versatile. If you combat all day, go elsewhere. If you play in a full game world with intrigue, combat, revelry, learning etc... there's nothing better. JoaT and a huge spell list are very nice indeed. A good Lore Bard makes everyone else around them stronger and fills in any roles the party may be missing or weak in. Mine is a blast to play but I don't stand toe to toe with the bad guys for long (18 Bard/2 Wiz). Other builds can stand toe to toe but I don't recommend it since other classes are far better at that role. It's all about the Dip since you only need 18 Bard.

[MrStabby]

Well a strong spell list and is a good start but the extras are very good.

Inspiration is nice and provides a pretty powerful use of a bonus action without needing to invest a feat or similar. After level 4 you can do this a lot.

Jack of all trades is superb, especially for non skill ability checks like initiative.

The weakness is the shortage of spell slots. No natural recovery, font of magic or arcane recovery. Valor allows a decent attack to take its place. Lore gives earlier magical secrets to help you get more concentration spells to give you impact every turn.

I wouldn't say overpowered, just very good and can do some unusual things.

[RSP]

If you combat all day, go elsewhere.

Very much agree with dipping Bard as levels 19 and 20 do whatever is just above nothing.

However, a Lore Bard is fine even in "combat all day" thanks to SR Cutting Words at level 5 and the extra MS.

Even without Multiclassing, you can be extremely effective in combat (Fear or Hypnotic Pattern does wonders to trivialize combat for the bruisers).

[sithlordnergal]

I wouldn't call it overpowered, but as everyone else has pointed out Magical Secrets at level 6 is what makes the class so versatile. You can take any two spells up to 3rd level that you want from any of the classes you want. And the two spells don't have to be on the same spell list. So you can take a spell from the Wizard and Cleric.

Also, Lore Bards get Expertise and extra skills, making them on par with the Rogue as a Skill Monkey. Put Bardic Inspiration and Cutting Words on top of all that and you have one of the most versatile party support class in the game.

[Specter]

I don't get why this thread is assuming Lore Bards are overpowered. It's like 'since we all know for a fact they're overpowered, why'?

Cutting Words is good, but like Swords' flourishes, if you're using that it's one less inspiration for your party, so you're essentially trading support for self-defense. Every choice means letting something else go.

When it comes to skills, all the essentials for good adventuring and social skills can be grabbed through backgrounds, races and starter skills from the class. The bonus skills they get should come in handy for filling holes in a party or doing what they couldn't do a bit better, but that's hardly abuse.

The only argument I can see for them being overpowered is that they can steal the Paladin and the Ranger's thunder much earlier by grabbing stuff like Aura of Vitality if they want to, but otherwise they're still casting one spell and keeping one concentration at a time.

[snafuy]

I need to clarify: Why is Lore Bard overpowered, but Valor Bard is rated slightly below average?

Generic Bard features cannot be the reason that Lore Bard is amazing.

Jack of All Trades
ordinary Bardic Inspiration
Magical Secrets 10 & 18


Why are Bonus Proficiencies, Cutting Words, and Magical Secrets 6 overpowered?

[Unoriginal]

The Lore Bard is not overpowered. It's just powered, like all subclasses.

[snafuy]

I don't get why this thread is assuming Lore Bards are overpowered. It's like 'since we all know for a fact they're overpowered, why'?
Because https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQK9WoCYz5l0IWv6a9kDJmy4X5-zQYd631t1CFxGA_68OKeKxKyM3prgvHqx1k7acRdTKO0ZR6XXL Op/pubhtml?gid=1487965932

[Potato_Priest]

While I wouldn’t say the lore bard is overpowered, I would assert that it is very powerful in play when compared to valor simply because I’ve never been in a party that has made it past level 9, so magical secrets 6 is the only magical secrets that anyone can get.

[Unoriginal]

Because https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQK9WoCYz5l0IWv6a9kDJmy4X5-zQYd631t1CFxGA_68OKeKxKyM3prgvHqx1k7acRdTKO0ZR6XXL Op/pubhtml?gid=1487965932

Yes, and? This demonstrates nothing.

In fact, even that sheet claim the overwhelming majority of people think it's simply above average.

[RSP]

Not overpowered, just good in any facet of the game, which isn't true of every class:

Cutting Words can turn 5 hits into misses, every short rest, which can very much help the front liners.

3 extra skills make them more versatile skill monkeys than even rogues in social situations or exploration facets.

Those coming with an extra magic secrets ands as a full Caster, has them in the top tier of classes. Additionally, being charisma-based, they make a great Warlock dip candid, which makes them fantastic at will damage dealers.

[Finger6842]

I need to clarify: Why is Lore Bard overpowered, but Valor Bard is rated slightly below average?

Generic Bard features cannot be the reason that Lore Bard is amazing.

Jack of All Trades
ordinary Bardic Inspiration
Magical Secrets 10 & 18


Why are Bonus Proficiencies, Cutting Words, and Magical Secrets 6 overpowered?

Lore is highly rated because you can focus them on almost any role (except tank IME) and they can still be viable in almost any other role at the same time. Overall I think "overpowered" is just wording. Endgame (post level 17) they are crazy powerful but until then they are really squishy. Bottom line is that Lore Bard is the class that I believe to provide the most fun because there is never a phase of the campaign they can't support. If you want to do DPR/DPS or a Tank build I would say look elsewhere. Every other class you see will have several weaknesses while the Bard will have very few. Still, a Lore Bard is never OP like a coffee lock or a defensive GISH/Hexblade.

Valor Bard on the other hand just doesn't do anything very well. He or She can fight but not as well as warrior or ranger etc. They can't skill monkey as well as a Rogue or Lore Bard and they can't defend all that well either. They skip the level 6 magical secrets which are incredibly powerful. On my Lore, I took counterspell and haste. With this, i doubled the DPR of our Barbarian and cut in half (or neutralized entirely) the DPR of an enemy caster. The Valor Bard misses out on this key ability until level 10 and many campaigns just don't go high enough for them to ever come into their own. To make a Valor Bard strong you have to MC for DPR or Defense first which further aggravates this problem.

I haven't tried the newer forms of Bard so I can't say how they would do but the chart you provided seems to indicate that they are less than appealing.

[Specter]

Because https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQK9WoCYz5l0IWv6a9kDJmy4X5-zQYd631t1CFxGA_68OKeKxKyM3prgvHqx1k7acRdTKO0ZR6XXL Op/pubhtml?gid=1487965932

This is as much proof that Lore Bard is OP as Lord of the Rings is proof of Aragorn's existence.

I mean, Jesus, these voters must be casual readers or something. Barbarian as 'superior' to Wizard? Please.

[Sudsboy]

The Lore Bard is not overpowered. It's just powered, like all subclasses.

I think you can say the same thing for the Hexblade. There is a difference between very desirable for a multiclass dip and overpowered, at least as I understand the term. Portents is very powerful. What does hexblade have that compares?

Hexblades are powerful, but more than almost all other classes? Not in my view. The Shadow of Moil/Elven Advantage/Great Weapon Master/Polearm Mastery thing is good, but overpowered? It benefits less from crits than a fighter because of fewer attacks and larger static bonuses. Your average single target DPR at lvl 20 is close to 120 if you get your bonus attack from GWM + you have Hexblade's Curse available for use and Elemental Weapon active on a greatsword, 112.5 with polearm + PAM bonus attack. Average fighter damage should be roughly 116.65 at 20th, assuming the same -5/+10 and advantage, and that's before any benefits from subclass or magical weapons are added in. That's just a blank template fighter swinging GWM with advantage.

My figures above assume all hits, and don't take into account crit damage or crit range and probably tons of other stuff, but I think they're decent enough to make some educated guesses with.

[Knaight]

This is as much proof that Lore Bard is OP as Lord of the Rings is proof of Aragorn's existence.

I mean, Jesus, these voters must be casual readers or something. Barbarian as 'superior' to Wizard? Please.

It looks like the ratings apply more to subclasses standing out against others of the same base class than anything else. The giant jumps between different subclasses of the same class really bear this out - a divination wizard gets an A+, a Transmutation wizard a B-/C+ and both of them a nigh identical spell list which represents the vast majority of their power plus a marginal boost from their subclass.

[mgshamster]

Yes, and? This demonstrates nothing.

In fact, even that sheet claim the overwhelming majority of people think it's simply above average.

Just today I saw a published article about drug addiction and a ranking of what's the most harmful to users vs society. There was a lot of talk about how certain drugs are surprisingly more harmful than others based on the results of the - get this - survey. Yes, it was a survey. Granted, it was a surgery of experts, but a survey nonetheless.

To me, this does nothing to highlight reality or grant new insight into the field, but rather simply demonstrates what the current beliefs are amongst those who study the subject the most. They authors then mistakenly decided that the opinions of the experts in the field, with no accounting for bias, reflected reality. For example, one of the "surprising" results was that alcohol was more addictive than methamphetamine, which is just flatly false.

The class ranking survey does the exact same thing. It does nothing to evaluate the actual power level of classes and provides zero insight to the true power differences between classes. Instead, it just shows what GitP 5e forum survey takers currently believe, regardless if it's actually true.

The biggest mistake is then to take those results and pretend that they actually say something meaningful. As evidence of such, I present this thread. The creator of the survey makes the mistake of believing that because a lot of survey takers think one class is OP or UP, it must be true regardless if it actually is. Regardless of any actual analysis.

[8wGremlin]

The biggest mistake is then to take those results and pretend that they actually say something meaningful.

Actually it does mean something, it is a survey of perception of power, desirability, and disruption.
This is a multi trillion dollar business industry, it's politics, it's economics, it does use analysis to develop the concepts.

[mgshamster]

Actually it does mean something, it is a survey of perception of power, desirability, and disruption.
This is a multi trillion dollar business industry, it's politics, it's economics, it does use analysis to develop the concepts.

It does mean something when public perception also means something. Politics is a perfect example. So is marketing, the stock market, and plenty of fields which are reliant and interact with the public. Power levels in D&D classes is not one of those times (and for my own field of expertise, nor is the addictive potential of abusive drugs influenced by opinion of survey takers).

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't help OP presented this as fact without even showing how they came to this conclusion.

[Contrast]

I need to clarify: Why is Lore Bard overpowered, but Valor Bard is rated slightly below average?

Lore Bard makes you better at doing the things bards do well. Valor bard makes you mediocre at something bards do poorly. You only get one action per turn so its generally better to do something you do well better when you need to than be able to be kinda bad at something else.


I mean, Jesus, these voters must be casual readers or something. Barbarian as 'superior' to Wizard? Please.

In fairness, its easier to be a good barbarian than it is to be a good wizard. A lot of people I know/play with just don't really care to learn what all the spells do and a wizard who doesn't know their spell list is probably going to be less effective than a barbarian.

[Specter]

It looks like the ratings apply more to subclasses standing out against others of the same base class than anything else. The giant jumps between different subclasses of the same class really bear this out - a divination wizard gets an A+, a Transmutation wizard a B-/C+ and both of them a nigh identical spell list which represents the vast majority of their power plus a marginal boost from their subclass.

Even in that case, it's too skewed by hype and misunderstandings. Portent gets a great rep because it can give failures to enemies automatically, but that's twice per long rest. Considering the entire adventuring day, that's not as hot as it seems. Meanwhile, Transmuter's level 2 ability is crap, but level 6 gives you proficiency in CON saves without a feat. That's permanent and neat.


It does mean something when public perception also means something. Politics is a perfect example. So is marketing, the stock market, and plenty of fields which are reliant and interact with the public. Power levels in D&D classes is not one of those times (and for my own field of expertise, nor is the addictive potential of abusive drugs influenced by opinion of survey takers).

Yep, the wisdom of crowds is usually gibberish.


In fairness, its easier to be a good barbarian than it is to be a good wizard. A lot of people I know/play with just don't really care to learn what all the spells do and a wizard who doesn't know their spell list is probably going to be less effective than a barbarian.

Sure, but considering classes in general from avid forum readers, that shouldn't be the case

[WickerNipple]

Doesn't help OP presented this as fact without even showing how they came to this conclusion.

They brought it over from another current thread, the only fault here was assuming you'd read it.

[Unoriginal]

They brought it over from another current thread, the only fault here was assuming you'd read it.

Presenting it as fact was a "fault" already.

[WickerNipple]

Presenting it as fact was a "fault" already.

You are way too invested in this fact thing that the OP never even mentioned. There's a current thread discussing the results of a poll. Instead of derailing that discussion, OP wanted to talk about why Lore Bard got included in the very tip top tier. That's all this is.

It would have been nice if that information was included, I agree. But you're trying to make this far more than it is - it's just a followup to another thread, not some declaration of truth.

[kilpatds]

Cutting words is a lot better on the action economy (your reaction instead of your bonus action, and only when it matters). Magic Secrets at 6th level shows up in a lot more games than at 10th. Those are the major reasons it's the best bard (IMHO).

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Lore Bard is not overpowered. It is, however, the best 'pure caster' bard, which makes it an attractive subclass if you want to play Bard.

[Contrast]

Sure, but considering classes in general from avid forum readers, that shouldn't be the case

Didn't do whatever survey produced this so I don't know how the question was asked.

I've played with 4 people who played clerics. 3 of them died (at least one, possibly two, because they were trying to get their character killed because they felt their character was under-performing) and all were pretty ineffectual when they were alive. Do I think clerics are weak? Nope. But if you asked me the question 'In your gameplay experience, what is the power level of clerics?' I'd have to answer that in my experience, they have been pretty weak.

If I'd never read up on clerics myself (say, I had no interest in playing one ever) then I would definitely assume clerics were too weak based on what I'd observed.

That said I agree with Knaight, I assume people answering the questionnaire were ballparking subclasses against each other, not as a whole.

[SharkForce]

Lore Bard makes you better at doing the things bards do well. Valor bard makes you mediocre at something bards do poorly. You only get one action per turn so its generally better to do something you do well better when you need to than be able to be kinda bad at something else.

yup, pretty much. it definitely has some momentum from the time when there were only two bard subclasses, and it is a very strong generalist. it has tremendous power in skills, which means that it has very strong infinite resource, paired up with very strong limited resources (they get full spellcasting and can steal spells to get the strongest ones for whatever role it is they want to fill).

i would also say that the new bards are probably a bit more focused on non-bard-y things. the lore bard is a very strong bard. the new bards have some cool tricks, but still have somewhat similar problems as valour bard; they make you less bad at being something that is not a bard.

but basically, it's that lore bard is the best bard at being a bard, and the bard is a pretty strong class in general so anything that amplifies the bard's kit is going to stand out very well.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

My level 6 Lore Bard is tons of fun to play.

Our party's Wizard does more damage with spells AND has mage armor for some reason.

The Cleric heals better and randomly spits out equal damage.

The Rogue does more damage and all day long and can dodge

The fighter gets these weird actions amd can tank a bit.

My Bard is fun though and gets to do a bit of everything especially out of combat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why is Lore Bard overpowered?
It isn't.
Kobayashi Maru
Your "survey" won't change that.

[wilhelmdubdub]

My lore bard uses spiritual weapon as a bonus action to help with DPR, so cutting words helps to make use of those inspiration die.

[holywhippet]

Didn't do whatever survey produced this so I don't know how the question was asked.

I've played with 4 people who played clerics. 3 of them died (at least one, possibly two, because they were trying to get their character killed because they felt their character was under-performing) and all were pretty ineffectual when they were alive. Do I think clerics are weak? Nope. But if you asked me the question 'In your gameplay experience, what is the power level of clerics?' I'd have to answer that in my experience, they have been pretty weak.

If I'd never read up on clerics myself (say, I had no interest in playing one ever) then I would definitely assume clerics were too weak based on what I'd observed.

That said I agree with Knaight, I assume people answering the questionnaire were ballparking subclasses against each other, not as a whole.

Any class can appear weak if the player doesn't know all the tricks to use. A cleric can throw out a spiritual weapon and a spirit guardians at the same time once they can cast both spells. Once both are in effect you can use your bonus action to make the former do damage and the latter does automatic damage to enemies in range. You still have your move and standard actions each turn after both are in effect.

Lore bards could be viewed as overpowered by using magical secrets which can be used to cover holes in their abilities. Think of a bard who picks up counterspell that way. They can use cutting words or counterspell once each round to try to block some dangerous attack as long as their spell slots and bardic inspirations hold out. However I'm currently running a lore bard and it will be many levels yet until I can match the kind of damage some of the party fighter types can dish out.

[Caelic]

One other area where Lore Bards excel is opposed ability checks.

Say, for instance, the Lore Bard has taken Telekinesis as one of his Magical Secrets. He seeks to grapple an opponent: opposed CHA versus STR.

First off, he gets to add half his proficiency bonus, thanks to JoaT.

Second, if his roll isn't particularly high, he can use Cutting Words as a reaction to reduce the opponent's roll by his inspiration die.

Third, if he's hit fourteenth level, he can use Peerless Skill (which requires no action at all) to raise his own roll by his inspiration die.

Our hypothetical 14th level bard can thus shift the result of the opposed roll by an average of 13 in his or her favor--enough to nearly guarantee victory, all other things being equal.

[agnos]

Bard as a class is about filling the party’s holes. The thing that Lore Bard does is make you much better at filling those holes throughout the course of the game.

At 3 you get the best healing spell in the game: Cutting Words. It’s a ranged reaction that lets you negate hits.

At 3 you also get additional skills letting you tailor your skill suite to cover any missing points.

At 6 you get Magical Secrets for 1st to 3rd level spells. Need ranged DPS? Hello Eldritch Blast! Getting swarmed a lot or lack access to radiant damage? Hi there Spiritual Guardians. Stuck in Thay? I didn’t notice you over in the corner there Counter spell. Having trouble keeping the old HP tank from running on empty? Meet Healing Spirit and Aura of Vitality. Does everyone else in your party have 3 or more Weapon attacks per turn? Crusader’s Mantle you’re looking quite fine today. Did the big stupid tin can forget that there are people you hide from often? I didn’t see you come in Pass Without Trace, please stay and enjoy the party. Ring of Spell Storing? What buffs become super silly when they’re given early or to non-native classes... I’ll do that.

Bard is designed as a great jack of all trades chassis. It’s not the best controller, but it can be an effective controller. It’s not the best healer, but it can be an effective one. It’s not the strongest buffer/debuffer, but it can still serve the role quite well. Lore Bard takes that jack of all trades chassis and lets you specialize it ever more. It doesn’t just let you pick what spells best fit your playstyle; it also lets you pick which roles the party needs to be stronger. Bard is not a strong solo class. Bard is a class that’s strong because it operates at 90% of a character to make everyone else operate at 120% of a character. Lore Bard accentuates that cutting of personal power level to further amplify other character’s power level.

[snafuy]

Instead of derailing that discussion, OP wanted to talk about why Lore Bard got included in the very tip top tier. That's all this is.
Thank you for explaining this much better than I did. Yes, I didn't understand why Lore Bard is viewed as equal to Hexblade & Diviner, when it only has a handful of advantages over the mostly-disdained Valor Bard.

[MrStabby]

Valor bard is pretty awesome. The only reason many people don't like it is because it has so much in common with the lore bard, but much of it less good.

If you get good stats and need endurance valor is very good indeed.

In my campaign there is a valor bard who really shines by having lots of slots left for emergency and flexibility.

[Battlebooze]

A Lore Bard is overpowered fantastic because it's fun to play, has good balance, is easily adaptable to most campaigns, and can be played in many many ways. You could have a whole party of Lore Bards and they could all be different styles of characters!

I'd say the Lore Bard is one of the top three classes in the game, mainly because it's powerful without being broken and flexible enough to fit almost any spot in a party without multi-classing. It doesn't make a fantastic tank, but that's about the only thing you would have trouble building.

[krugaan]

Lore bard doesn't do anything particularly better than the valor bard, honestly, unless you count the quintessential bard trait of "doing everything the party doesn't have a specialist for."

Valor bards make great archers with very decent dpr without losing spell progression ... at level 10. Otherwise go Lore.

Honestly though, my favorite is college of swords with a hexblade dip now. Being functionally SAD for melee AND ranged damage AND spell DC is just nuts, even with the lost spell progression. And between flourishes and shield you are fairly tanky, can heal, get extra low level spell slots to throw ...

[Specter]

Thank you for explaining this much better than I did. Yes, I didn't understand why Lore Bard is viewed as equal to Hexblade & Diviner, when it only has a handful of advantages over the mostly-disdained Valor Bard.

Yeah, people take Valor for granted.

- Combat Inspiration: "Cutting Words is much better because you can use it as a reaction!" Yes, yes, everyone knows that. But when your reaction has already been used or you're not in range, it won't help. Plus, giving your melee friend an extra 2 dice worth of damage on a crit is amazing.

- Proficiencies: with medium armor, any bard can get their hands on 17AC, whereas Lore would have 14-15 depending on their DEX with studded leather. That's a huge boost in survivability, especially at low levels. If you want even more, then shield up, which you can.

- Extra Attack: even if you don't plan on attacking more than casting, two attacks lets you pull ahead of cantrips in at-will damage.

- War Magic: in any turn where you're not using Bardic Inspiration, this is huge for your action economy.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, people take Valor for granted.

- Combat Inspiration: "Cutting Words is much better because you can use it as a reaction!" Yes, yes, everyone knows that. But when your reaction has already been used or you're not in range, it won't help. Plus, giving your melee friend an extra 2 dice worth of damage on a crit is amazing.

- Proficiencies: with medium armor, any bard can get their hands on 17AC, whereas Lore would have 14-15 depending on their DEX with studded leather. That's a huge boost in survivability, especially at low levels. If you want even more, then shield up, which you can.

- Extra Attack: even if you don't plan on attacking more than casting, two attacks lets you pull ahead of cantrips in at-will damage.

- War Magic: in any turn where you're not using Bardic Inspiration, this is huge for your action economy.

an extra 2 dice of damage is not likely to be anywhere near as impactful as keeping someone alive. both are reasonably good abilities. cutting words is better.

medium armour and shield is half a feat away for any bard, valour or otherwise, and bards aren't that desperate for feats. if you want it, it's readily available.

extra attack isn't doing much better than cantrips unless you've been maxing your attack attribute at the expense of charisma and/or con. missing hurts DPR a lot.

war magic is nice, but not nice enough that you can get less valuable abilities for a whole bunch of levels and feel great about the trade nice.

[Specter]

medium armour and shield is half a feat away for any bard, valour or otherwise, and bards aren't that desperate for feats. if you want it, it's readily available.

Medium armor is half a feat away... If you plan on boosting STR. Since most Lore Bards have zero incentive for that, it'll usually be a bad option.

Plus, you have to think of the ASI order. If you didn't start as a human, you have to wait until level 4 for any feat. And by taking that feat, you're delaying your CHA progression, which is the most important thing for Lore Bards.

And then again, while you're taking Moderately Armored, Valor can take Heavily Armored and still have more AC.

[snafuy]

an extra 2 dice of damage is not likely to be anywhere near as impactful as keeping someone alive. both are reasonably good abilities. cutting words is better.
Combat Inspiration can also keep the party alive. Adding to AC is exactly the same benefit as subtracting from attack roll. You have to distribute the dice in advance, but a smart party usually can decide who's going to take most of the hits.

[Gignere]

Even in that case, it's too skewed by hype and misunderstandings. Portent gets a great rep because it can give failures to enemies automatically, but that's twice per long rest. Considering the entire adventuring day, that's not as hot as it seems. Meanwhile, Transmuter's level 2 ability is crap, but level 6 gives you proficiency in CON saves without a feat. That's permanent and neat.


It isn't hype, I played a diviner and portents was basically the most memorable thing in the campaign. When you can basically one shot the BBEG even when supported by minions, people don't remember the barbarian killing three mooks. But they remember the guaranteed fail save that locked down the BBEG.

In another encounter we ran into over 3x deadly encounter by accident, and I portent the initiative (3 mind flayers) that almost guaranteed wipe turned into a walk in the park.

Another time the barbarian was trying to rally the towns people to help, don't ask why the rogue didn't do it. He had 8 charisma and no social skills proficiency. Once again portent came through and guaranteed a success.

[Specter]

It isn't hype, I played a diviner and portents was basically the most memorable thing in the campaign. When you can basically one shot the BBEG even when supported by minions, people don't remember the barbarian killing three mooks. But they remember the guaranteed fail save that locked down the BBEG.

In another encounter we ran into over 3x deadly encounter by accident, and I portent the initiative (3 mind flayers) that almost guaranteed wipe turned into a walk in the park.

Another time the barbarian was trying to rally the towns people to help, don't ask why the rogue didn't do it. He had 8 charisma and no social skills proficiency. Once again portent came through and guaranteed a success.

Yes, I've already seen Diviners in play.

First of all, it's not a matter of Wizard vs. Barbarian in this case. It was said that people voted Diviner as an overpowered Wiz sub because of Portent, and I said that the ability is very good, but too limited in use compared to other subclass features, some of which are permanent.

Secondly, you actually reinforced what I said. You cancelled one save off the BBEG, but other than that, what did your subclass features do on the other 4 or 5 encounters of the day?

[SharkForce]

Medium armor is half a feat away... If you plan on boosting STR. Since most Lore Bards have zero incentive for that, it'll usually be a bad option.

Plus, you have to think of the ASI order. If you didn't start as a human, you have to wait until level 4 for any feat. And by taking that feat, you're delaying your CHA progression, which is the most important thing for Lore Bards.

And then again, while you're taking Moderately Armored, Valor can take Heavily Armored and still have more AC.

moderately armoured allows strength or dexterity, and plenty of lore bards will be looking to raise dexterity a bit.

heavily armoured is a vastly worse feat than moderately armoured. moderately armoured gives +3 max AC (possibly +4 if your AC was previously 11 or 13) and removes the need for 3 future ASIs from the high end to go into dex to get your AC up. heavily armoured gives +1 to AC, removes the need for only 2 ASIs from the low end of the scale (11-14 rather than 15-20), and the ability point is roughly equal in value... so you're looking at 2 fewer points of AC and still needing one additional ASI.

and that's before getting into magic gear... if there is a magic shield available, the AC improvement is even larger.

and if you're delaying cha progression, you're not doing any worse than the valour bard who's building for weapon attacks at level 4, and bardic inspiration is great for valour bards too, just not quite as versatile as it is for lore bards.

[sithlordnergal]

Yes, I've already seen Diviners in play.

First of all, it's not a matter of Wizard vs. Barbarian in this case. It was said that people voted Diviner as an overpowered Wiz sub because of Portent, and I said that the ability is very good, but too limited in use compared to other subclass features, some of which are permanent.

Secondly, you actually reinforced what I said. You cancelled one save off the BBEG, but other than that, what did your subclass features do on the other 4 or 5 encounters of the day?

How about a different use then. I was playing a Paladin in a tier 3 game yesterday, and we were playing Into the Darkness. Now, my Paladin has a Rod of Lordly Might from beating Storm King's Thunder, and one of it's abilities is to paralyze an enemy that I hit if it fails a strength save.

So, we went up against one creature that was supposed to essentially be a boss. Thanks to the Wizard, I was able to force that creatue to fail it's strength save and proceeded to crit it twice in a row for a total of 220 damage. Had it not been for the portent wizard, we would have had to deal with it.

Outside of using the portents, they were more then capable as a wizard. And that is what makes divination so strong. Not only are they a general wizard, which is strong in it's own right. But they can ultimatly decide the fate of a battle with their portents. It may only be twice a day, but it is still insane.

[SharkForce]

How about a different use then. I was playing a Paladin in a tier 3 game yesterday, and we were playing Into the Darkness. Now, my Paladin has a Rod of Lordly Might from beating Storm King's Thunder, and one of it's abilities is to paralyze an enemy that I hit if it fails a strength save.

So, we went up against one creature that was supposed to essentially be a boss. Thanks to the Wizard, I was able to force that creatue to fail it's strength save and proceeded to crit it twice in a row for a total of 220 damage. Had it not been for the portent wizard, we would have had to deal with it.

Outside of using the portents, they were more then capable as a wizard. And that is what makes divination so strong. Not only are they a general wizard, which is strong in it's own right. But they can ultimatly decide the fate of a battle with their portents. It may only be twice a day, but it is still insane.

he's been fixating on it only helping with one encounter. i don't think this helps ;)

i would, however, point out that:

1) the basic wizard abilities (by which i mostly mean wizard spellcasting) are sufficient to get you through quite a bit anyways.
2) being able to render a few encounters much easier means you have more resources to spend on other encounters.
3) having a stronger nova may not be the same kind of power as stronger sustained combat, but it is still very much a useful kind of power.

[Bloodcloud]

I think the Lore Bard benefits in the survey by being one of few class with many meaningfull build decision. For one it's a charisma casting class, making it a prime multiclassing candidate. Add Magical secret and spell list choice, and a mostly single stat focus leaving room for feats, and you have a very interesting class to try to optimize. This makes it a prime target of optimizer, while less experienced players might stay away given it's initial lack of simple and easy option (absence of easy damage solution being quite prominent on lore bards).

Result: most lore bard players are heavy optimizer with clear build objectives and gameplay plan. It creates a perception of strenght above other classes.

Again, in 5e the floor and ceiling aren't that far from one another. The lore bard is strong, maybe a bit stronger than some, especially well built and played. It is certainly one of the more complex choice. But overpowered? I think not.

[Dudewithknives]

Lore bards are overpowered for one reason, and it is true of all bards, but more so for lore.

Cherry picking spells, in a power creep game.

If ANY class gets a new spell that is amazing, the bard is going to steal it.
New crazy good healing spell for druid/ranger, well Bards are going to get it at level 10, lore at 6.
Awesome new AOE spell that has a save against a typically low stat, cool, bards get it too.

In a system where the only thing ever guaranteed is that there will ALWAYS be new spells, and at least a few of them each new book will be flat out better than old ones, then the bard/Lore is just going to keep getting stronger.

This is the same problem with SORLOCKS, they are so much more powerful than base warlocks, and in most things more powerful than normal sorcerer, that it is the exact reason that NO Sorcerer subclass will EVER get a second attack as a subclass ability.

[mephnick]

Yes, I've already seen Diviners in play.

Me too. He mostly rolled 10's and 11's. So he helped make a couple sketchy saves but sure as hell didn't "one shot" any BBEGs.

People see the ability and assume they're going to roll 1's and 20's every day.

[Specter]

moderately armoured allows strength or dexterity, and plenty of lore bards will be looking to raise dexterity a bit.

heavily armoured is a vastly worse feat than moderately armoured. moderately armoured gives +3 max AC (possibly +4 if your AC was previously 11 or 13) and removes the need for 3 future ASIs from the high end to go into dex to get your AC up. heavily armoured gives +1 to AC, removes the need for only 2 ASIs from the low end of the scale (11-14 rather than 15-20), and the ability point is roughly equal in value... so you're looking at 2 fewer points of AC and still needing one additional ASI.

and that's before getting into magic gear... if there is a magic shield available, the AC improvement is even larger.

and if you're delaying cha progression, you're not doing any worse than the valour bard who's building for weapon attacks at level 4, and bardic inspiration is great for valour bards too, just not quite as versatile as it is for lore bards.

Okay, let's look at this in a different perspective: Valor Bards don't need to take Moderately Armored. Ever. If Lore Bards want it, fine, but it's their ASI, and a Valor could spend theirs in much better ways.


How about a different use then. I was playing a Paladin in a tier 3 game yesterday, and we were playing Into the Darkness. Now, my Paladin has a Rod of Lordly Might from beating Storm King's Thunder, and one of it's abilities is to paralyze an enemy that I hit if it fails a strength save.

So, we went up against one creature that was supposed to essentially be a boss. Thanks to the Wizard, I was able to force that creatue to fail it's strength save and proceeded to crit it twice in a row for a total of 220 damage. Had it not been for the portent wizard, we would have had to deal with it.

Outside of using the portents, they were more then capable as a wizard. And that is what makes divination so strong. Not only are they a general wizard, which is strong in it's own right. But they can ultimatly decide the fate of a battle with their portents. It may only be twice a day, but it is still insane.

This is counting on a) a magic item, b) the Wizard rolling a number low enough to make this possible, c) having a Portent reserved for the final battle, and d) the boss not having legendary resistances (in which case, who cares). Not a given.

But let's assume everybody still thinks 2/day is good enough for that ability. What about the other subclass abilities? Let's compare it to the Enchantment Wizard.

Level 2: Diviner gets the amazing Portent, Enchanter gets a Hold Monster-like ability. Diviner clearly wins.

Level 6: Diviner gets some low-level slots back after using divination, Enchanter gets an at-will save mechanic that makes enemies target someone else with their attack (any kind). Enchanter wins.

Level 10: Diviner gets either Darkvision if they don't have it, or some other invisibility/ethereal sight (which is situationally good). Enchanter can target two enemies with their school spells, giving them twice as much value for any of them. Enchanter wins.

Level 14: Diviner improves his Portent, Enchanter makes people forget they were charmed and erases memories. Since the second one is not always useful, I say Diviner wins.

Diviner 2, Enchanter 2. You can do this comparison with pretty much any Wizard school and see that Portent is really the only nice thing Diviner gets.


Me too. He mostly rolled 10's and 11's. So he helped make a couple sketchy saves but sure as hell didn't "one shot" any BBEGs.

People see the ability and assume they're going to roll 1's and 20's every day.

Also this. Any number that is not a 20 or below 10 won't be too impactful.

[SharkForce]

depending on where you are in the game, you can do plenty with a 10.

if you're high level and hitting an enemy's weak save, it isn't uncommon for them to have a +3 or less. as early as level 4, you can easily have DC 14, which means 10 is a fail. later on when you're up at DC 19, a roll as high as a 15 can still be a failed save quite often if you use the right spell. alternately, it can also be an important success for your own party; the barbarian who picked up intimidate but has only decent cha can hit DC 20 late game with that kind of roll, and early on it's enough for a cha investment + proficiency bonus to likewise hit DC 20, which is the highest you should generally be facing for social skill checks. a passed social skill check can make a huge difference that could potentially impact weeks of gameplay. and even early game, a roll around 10 can often give you success on important rolls, like checking to see whether an enemy successfully charmed you.

additionally, portent merely requires an effect of any sort that requires a save to have a major impact on a fight; just because an item was the source of the disable that made the entire fight easy, doesn't mean that only items can be used in that way.

also, getting a level 5 slot back after casting true seeing, for example, is an awesome ability when used in the right situation. as more divination spells are released, it will likely continue to get better.

[GlenSmash!]

Lore Bard is not overpowered. It is just powered.

[The_Jette]

Lore is highly rated because you can focus them on almost any role (except tank IME) and they can still be viable in almost any other role at the same time. Overall I think "overpowered" is just wording. Endgame (post level 17) they are crazy powerful but until then they are really squishy. Bottom line is that Lore Bard is the class that I believe to provide the most fun because there is never a phase of the campaign they can't support. If you want to do DPR/DPS or a Tank build I would say look elsewhere. Every other class you see will have several weaknesses while the Bard will have very few. Still, a Lore Bard is never OP like a coffee lock or a defensive GISH/Hexblade.

Valor Bard on the other hand just doesn't do anything very well. He or She can fight but not as well as warrior or ranger etc. They can't skill monkey as well as a Rogue or Lore Bard and they can't defend all that well either. They skip the level 6 magical secrets which are incredibly powerful. On my Lore, I took counterspell and haste. With this, i doubled the DPR of our Barbarian and cut in half (or neutralized entirely) the DPR of an enemy caster. The Valor Bard misses out on this key ability until level 10 and many campaigns just don't go high enough for them to ever come into their own. To make a Valor Bard strong you have to MC for DPR or Defense first which further aggravates this problem.

I haven't tried the newer forms of Bard so I can't say how they would do but the chart you provided seems to indicate that they are less than appealing.

Point of interest, my favorite character right now is a Lore Bard that I built to be a tank by taking a dip into Fighter. By itself, it could be a decent tank simply by putting a bunch of points into Dex, and getting a good light armor, and spending an ASI to get the feat Moderately Armored so they can use a Shield. I haven't even reached level 7 (for 6 levels of bard), but when I do, I plan to grab Armor of Agathys and add that to my repertoire. So, really, the Lore Bard can do anything.

[Battlebooze]

Lore bards are overpowered for one reason, and it is true of all bards, but more so for lore.

Cherry picking spells, in a power creep game.

If ANY class gets a new spell that is amazing, the bard is going to steal it.
New crazy good healing spell for druid/ranger, well Bards are going to get it at level 10, lore at 6.
Awesome new AOE spell that has a save against a typically low stat, cool, bards get it too.

In a system where the only thing ever guaranteed is that there will ALWAYS be new spells, and at least a few of them each new book will be flat out better than old ones, then the bard/Lore is just going to keep getting stronger.

This is the same problem with SORLOCKS, they are so much more powerful than base warlocks, and in most things more powerful than normal sorcerer, that it is the exact reason that NO Sorcerer subclass will EVER get a second attack as a subclass ability.

This is problem with the game, not the class. If a certain spell is game breaking in the hands of a bard, it's game breaking in the hands of whatever class it came out for.

I agree though, that power creep in spells is a bad thing. And I agree that Bards are good at taking advantage of that. I'm just pointing my fingers at the spells, not the Bards.

[Dudewithknives]

This is problem with the game, not the class. If a certain spell is game breaking in the hands of a bard, it's game breaking in the hands of whatever class it came out for.

Yes but it is worse for the bard.

If wizards get a new broken spell it is not going to matter to the cleric, but if anyone gets a new broken spell it is great for the lore bard.

[SharkForce]

This is problem with the game, not the class. If a certain spell is game breaking in the hands of a bard, it's game breaking in the hands of whatever class it came out for.

I agree though, that power creep in spells is a bad thing. And I agree that Bards are good at taking advantage of that. I'm just pointing my fingers at the spells, not the Bards.

well, there are definitely situations where the bard can take better advantage of certain spells as well. like telekinesis. it's not a bad spell for some, but in the hands of a lore bard it gets much more interesting.

[Dudewithknives]

well, there are definitely situations where the bard can take better advantage of certain spells as well. like telekinesis. it's not a bad spell for some, but in the hands of a lore bard it gets much more interesting.

Or the fact they can take ranger/paladin spells long before the paladin or ranger can take them themselves.

A level 6 lore bard that takes Aura of Vitality, or Lightning Arrow
or
at level 10 they take swift quiver.

[snafuy]

Or the fact they can take ranger/paladin spells long before the paladin or ranger can take them themselves.
IMO this is a valid thing to nerf. Lore Bards have enough advantages. They shouldn't be better than Paladins & Rangers at casting their own specialty spells.

[JAL_1138]

IMO this is a valid thing to nerf. Lore Bards have enough advantages. They shouldn't be better than Paladins & Rangers at casting their own specialty spells.

Getting them earlier doesn't make the bard better, and a Lore Bard isn't especially good at using Swift Quiver. Three attacks at level 10 for the cost of a 5th-level slot and Concentration, with no Fighting Style, isn't particularly impressive. Especially without Sharpshooter, which is a pretty subpar feat choice for a class that doesn't get Extra Attack, doesn't get a Fighting Style, and doesn't get any damage boosts like Colossus Slayer. A 10th-level Ranger does more damage than a 10th-level Lore Bard using Swift Quiver even assuming the bard hits all three times.

Let's assume 18 Dex for both Bard and Ranger, and use a Longbow for both.

2d8+2d6+1d8+8= 9+7+4.5+8 = 28.5
3d8+12 = 13.5+12= 25.5

Accounting for crit chance, crit damage, and Archery Style is more than I can do on a cell phone, but the damage die averages put a bog-standard Hunter Ranger using Hunter's Mark and Colossus Slayer ahead of a Lore Bard using Swift Quiver.

Valor is the better (phb) bard for ranged damage, since it gets Extra Attack.

[Gignere]

Me too. He mostly rolled 10's and 11's. So he helped make a couple sketchy saves but sure as hell didn't "one shot" any BBEGs.

People see the ability and assume they're going to roll 1's and 20's every day.

Even mediocre rolls can guarantee fail saves/success. But for most of my career I got at least 1 roll that was low or high.

I think what makes diviner at least appear broken is that wizards with no subclass is great already. Add in a couple of times a game where the player can totally hack the game, ie. allow the 8 charisma no social skill barbarian to give an inspiring speech, turn an almost guarantee wipe into walk into the park, or one shot the BBEG. People are going to say they are broken.

[elvendork]

I don't think Lore Bards are particularly overpowered per say, just really versatile. They literally have a feature called "Jack of All Trades". They're pretty good in all aspects; they can have fighting spells and be proficient in fighting, their performance and persuasion/deception is typically high so they can talk to NPCs and convince people to give them information and such. Plus they're (arguably) pretty entertaining. With Lore bards especially, they can pick up spells from other classes at 6th and 10th levels (like everyone keeps talking about) and I think that's pretty cool.