Hel's Bargain

[Sarone]

Something just came to me the other night. The deal between Hel, Thor, and Loki has it that Hel gets the souls of the Dwarves who don't die with honor. However, she is to have no priests, clerics, or clergy of her own. Since Vampire Durkon is considered to be her "High Priest", would this violate the deal?

Theory #1: Loki is playing the long game, which means he would get the souls since Hel had one High Priest in her employ, to act as he advocate.

Theory #2: Loki is looking to make his faith more popular. By destroying Durkon and saving the World, Loki is looking pretty good to more common individuals.


Any one else thought about this?

[Jasdoif]

However, she is to have no priests, clerics, or clergy of her own.Not quite. She's not "to make clerics among the living" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html); HPoH, being undead, isn't subject to that restriction.

[dps]

We don't actually know exactly what the deal was. The implication seems to have been that Hel not getting any priests wasn't part of the deal itself, but a side affect.

[Kish]

We don't and it does? Jasdoif just linked the agreement, and the entirety of what Hel gave up was "ability to make clerics among the living."

[Fyraltari]

Theory #1: Loki is playing the long game, which means he would get the souls since Hel had one High Priest in her employ, to act as he advocate.

Why would Loki get the souls ? They were never his, Hel made the bet with Thor.
If the deal gets broken (if that can actually happen) then the souls should go to their respective afterlives as everybody else does.

[dps]

We don't and it does? Jasdoif just linked the agreement, and the entirety of what Hel gave up was "ability to make clerics among the living."

How did I miss/forget that?

I'm so ashamed.

[Finagle]

Durkula is not the High Priest of Hel. This vampire is the High Priest of Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html) and has been for almost 100 strips now.

[factotum]

Durkula is not the High Priest of Hel. This vampire is the High Priest of Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html) and has been for almost 100 strips now.

That doesn't actually make any difference to the OP's suggestion? His suggestion was that Hel would be punished for having clerics at all, regardless of who those clerics are. He's incorrect about that because, as already pointed out, the deal was that she would not have living clerics, and all her clerics are undead.

[Fyraltari]

Durkula is not the High Priest of Hel. This vampire is the High Priest of Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html) and has been for almost 100 strips now.

Give him a pass, even Hel forgot that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html)

[Sarone]

Not quite. She's not "to make clerics among the living" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html); HPoH, being undead, isn't subject to that restriction.

While that is part of it, she did interrupt the rest of the conversation, including the part where Thor agrees to the deal. So my question is not totally out of line.


We don't and it does? Jasdoif just linked the agreement, and the entirety of what Hel gave up was "ability to make clerics among the living."

Like I pointed out above, Hel also interrupted the conversation. Thor was also inebriated as well, which usually would void contracts when one party is drunk.


How did I miss/forget that?

I'm so ashamed.

Don't worry, it happens at times. It was just a burning question that I had that was bothering me for a while.


That doesn't actually make any difference to the OP's suggestion? His suggestion was that Hel would be punished for having clerics at all, regardless of who those clerics are. He's incorrect about that because, as already pointed out, the deal was that she would not have living clerics, and all her clerics are undead.

I don't know about Hel being punished, but it would be a good reason for voiding the bet/deal. Plus, if that was the case, then how come she hadn't any clerics before Durkula?

The best reason, at least in my mind, was that none of them survived for long. Especially if the dwarves knew about the deal between Thor and Hel.


Give him a pass, even Hel forgot that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html)

Yeah, I did forget. However, even with the link, there leaves quite a few questions unanswered.


We don't actually know exactly what the deal was. The implication seems to have been that Hel not getting any priests wasn't part of the deal itself, but a side affect.

This was what I was wondering about.

Also, the way Loki phrased it has me wondering.

"Trade your (in this case Hel's) ability to make clerics among the living".

Because Loki is the trickster, it has me wondering if there was a clause in it for himself and others. Especially since we don't have the whole conversation/deal to go.

By the way, thank you to everyone that is participating in this topic. I was worried that I was the only one pondering this situation.

[factotum]

I don't know about Hel being punished, but it would be a good reason for voiding the bet/deal. Plus, if that was the case, then how come she hadn't any clerics before Durkula?


Most undead are mindless automatons who wouldn't really be suitable for the task, or else lose any spellcasting abilities they had in life. Hel needs an intelligent undead, based on a dwarf, who was a cleric in life, and who will still be able to be a cleric once they're undead--that's a very specific and difficult to arrange set of circumstances. I can't imagine a dwarven cleric willingly becoming a huecuva, given the dishonour would doom them to Hel for eternity, for instance. In fact, the specific set of circumstances we have here--e.g. a dwarven cleric being turned into a vampire--is maybe the *only* way it could happen, and we know from word of Giant that vampires are rare things in the Stickverse.

[Sylian]

Most undead are mindless automatons who wouldn't really be suitable for the task, or else lose any spellcasting abilities they had in life. Hel needs an intelligent undead, based on a dwarf, who was a cleric in life, and who will still be able to be a cleric once they're undead--that's a very specific and difficult to arrange set of circumstances.Let's not forget that even if she does get some undead clerics, chances are they'll be killed by adventurers. See: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html

[Fyraltari]

snip

You are making sound harder than it is (which is a lot already).

First : the Thorsaken's choice of words there imply that Hel can grant Clerical magic to undead (that just tends not to work out).

Second : She does not need a Dwarf to spawn a vampire spirit, as she is the Godess of Death of the whole Northern PantheonTM any Northener would have done it :

Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.
Though as the quote points out she would only care for a high-level Cleric (one who would choose to follow her even, I suspect some would refuse).

Third : If the living can switch religion, surely so can the undead. If One of Nergal's offspring decided to rebel against Lion-daddy she could accept him.

Fourth : Sure, becoming undead in the service of Hel of one's own free will would surely damn one, but isn't that true of all independant undead ? I can't really imagine that "willingly turned himself into an abomination aginst all laws of nature as a twisted parody of the good God's most holy work" would not be a problem to get to Walhalla. Ad even if it the undead was a Dwarf damned to Hel, well, as a servant of Hel, I doubt they would have much problem with that.
Anyway people trying to become immortal tend not to think in terms of "But what happens if I still die ?"

Damnation had little meaning without the prospect of true death.
So I guess there are plenty of people who would be willing to make that deal.
Anyway maybe that "trade your ability to make Clerics among the living" thing means that she can't contact the living at all and so can't make the "become an undying servant of mine for power and immortality" offer.

In the end I think the problem is not the lack of undead but the lack of Cleric, high-level Clerics are rare (as we have been repeatedly been told), powerful already and have a patron who might object ; low-level Cleric she can get her hands on but they all end up as XP for adventurers.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am trying to figure out the 3.x method by which Durkon is returned (his spirit) to his body via the raise dead/resurrection spell.

First, defeat the vampire and then banish the spirit back to Hel's domain, or the negative energy plane? I am not sure that banishment is the precisely correct spell. Is there a better one within the reach of the party?

[Onyavar]

At some point in the comic, Hel expressed her disgust that all her low level clerics get dusted rather early by fledgling adventurers. There is no mention if those clerics are vampires, or ghouls or sceletons, but the implication is clear: The undead are shunned in the world of the living and can't roam freely across the land; they can't express their religion or build their unholy temples, either. There was a theurge once who was rather unhappy about this, but the rest of the OotSverse is probably very much okay with "undead repression".

Hel obviously wasn't aware of that connection before agreeing to Loki's deal. Either Loki was a jerk (again), or wanted to prove a point to his daughter. I don't suppose that there is an even deeper plan behind that bet. I wouldn't bet on that bit of background myself, but I guess that this particular backstory won't be explained in even more detail, later.

[Fyraltari]

I am trying to figure out the 3.x method by which Durkon is returned (his spirit) to his body via the raise dead/resurrection spell.

First, defeat the vampire and then banish the spirit back to Hel's domain, or the negative energy plane? I am not sure that banishment is the precisely correct spell. Is there a better one within the reach of the party?

I'd say force cage or resilient sphere the little bugger with Roy once he's worn down a little so that the ashes don't scatter when he die. Then cast resurrection on the ashes.
If resurrection does not work you can go :
Y'AI'NG' NGAH
YOG-SOTHOTH
H'EE-L'GEB
F'AI THRODOG
UAAAAH!
I hear that sometimes work. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_NYNuAdIv0)

Aï! Aï! Cthulhu fhtagn!

[Emanick]

I am trying to figure out the 3.x method by which Durkon is returned (his spirit) to his body via the raise dead/resurrection spell.

First, defeat the vampire and then banish the spirit back to Hel's domain, or the negative energy plane? I am not sure that banishment is the precisely correct spell. Is there a better one within the reach of the party?

Once the vampire dies, its spirit is probably either destroyed for good or goes back to Hel’s domain (or the Negative Energy Plane). Either way, it no longer resides within Durkon’s body, and Durkon can be resurrected normally.

[KorvinStarmast]

Once the vampire dies, its spirit is probably either destroyed for good or goes back to Hel’s domain (or the Negative Energy Plane). Either way, it no longer resides within Durkon’s body, and Durkon can be resurrected normally. OK, stake in the heart, make sure the spirit goes back to Hel, then raise Durkon and hope that his spirit is willing to return.

[TheNecrocomicon]

OK, stake in the heart, make sure the spirit goes back to Hel, then raise Durkon and hope that his spirit is willing to return.

I'm pretty sure once Lurkon is conclusively defeated with no sarcophagus to return to -- assuming none of the ex-Creed-of-the-Stone-ers or vamped dwarven inhabitants have been doing any stone-shaping on the side here to build one -- then the vampire spirit would indeed be destroyed or at least permanently evicted back to Hel's domain.

That said, I don't see why Durkon's soul wouldn't be willing to return; there's the unfinished business with stopping Xykon from taking the final Gate, and even if there weren't, do we seriously think Durkon would pass up a chance to finally return home to his family and friends after his long and unjust exile?

[factotum]

So I guess there are plenty of people who would be willing to make that deal.


Plenty of *people*, maybe. We're talking about dwarves here, who have the most honour-bound society on the face of the planet.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That said, I don't see why Durkon's soul wouldn't be willing to return; there's the unfinished business with stopping Xykon from taking the final Gate, and even if there weren't, do we seriously think Durkon would pass up a chance to finally return home to his family and friends after his long and unjust exile?

Durkon might return because he has a duty to complete, but the rest of the argument fails when you consider that
1) He died with honor, fighting a vampire, and thus is assured to go to Valhalla. Plenty of dwarves might think that going back and risk that their second death won't be honorable is just unacceptable risk

2) He will be with his family in the afterlife, just like Roy was. He will be next to his pappy, an' his granpappy, an' his great-granpappy, etc. Which is really what he wants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html).

Yes, he'll still probably leave all that behind, because Durkon. But it won't be an easy decision.

Grey Wolf

[Jannoire]

Plenty of *people*, maybe. We're talking about dwarves here,

Nope, the current High Priest of Hel didn't struck me as dwarven... Like said earlier, Hel is the goddess of Death for the whole Northern Pantheon, so humans can theoretically be clerics of Hel.

Edit: Ok, we've never seen her perform divine magic, but if she's not able to cast Summon Proxy, Hel wouldn't have a vote, which would render the tie breaking tie breaker useless

[Fyraltari]

Plenty of *people*, maybe. We're talking about dwarves here, who have the most honour-bound society on the face of the planet.

Again doesn't need to be a Dwarf.


Nope, the current High Priest of Hel didn't struck me as dwarven... Like said earlier, Hel is the goddess of Death for the whole Northern Pantheon, so humans can theoretically be clerics of Hel.

Edit: Ok, we've never seen her perform divine magic, but if she's not able to cast Summon Proxy, Hel wouldn't have a vote, which would render the tie breaking tie breaker useless

Well she was a member of the Creed of the Stone, so she is extremely likely to be a Cleric if of a lower level than the Exaargh.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, we've never seen her perform divine magic, but if she's not able to cast Summon Proxy, Hel wouldn't have a vote, which would render the tie breaking tie breaker useless

Not how it works, AFAIK. Hel has already cast her vote (and due to the no-take-backs rule, it stays cast); there is no further need for casting the Summon Proxy spell. Yes, her vote can be negated if her representative leaves for whatever reason (including but not limited to cessation of existence), but I don't think that at this point Hel needs her Frontarch to be a particularly powerful cleric.

Grey Wolf