How does Hex Warrior change the Sorcadin?

[LordNibbler]

From XGtE, one level of Hexblade Warlock lets you use Cha as your attack stat. How does this change Sorcadin builds? I can see Paladin2/Hexblade1/SorcererX being very attractive because it eliminates the need to boost strength, allowing the build to focus only on Cha and Con. Conversely, one could say that with Eldritch Smite, Hexblade5/SorcererX might not need any levels of Paladin. Thoughts from the Forum?

[Mikal]

I'd say it doesn't do much if anything to a sorlock itself. Since you're going heavy armor anyway and you'll need at least a 13 str to multi in and out of paladin your best bet is to stay as is.

Even sorlock is less attractive from a smite perspective since it only uses pact magic slots to smite.

What hexblade opens up IMO is hexmasters- hexblade battlemasters. The fighting style helps with whatever way you like fighting as a bladepact, while you have the flexibility to go medium armor since you don't need strength to MC in and out of fighter.

In addition battlemaster abilities mesh very well with the short rest recharge times of your hexblade abilities and they also synergize with the hexblade pactblade style since a lot of them don't use actions but enhance your attacks.

[Zene]

hmm, good point about the armor. But cha sorcadins in med armor could be a thing, especially with reach weapons; or even 15 str sorcadins (since still never having to bump str after that may be worth the dip). I’ve been meaning to theorycraft some potential xge sorcadin builds to see what could work but just haven’t gotten a chance yet.

[Dalebert]

Agree. I don't think heavy armor is enough to justify spending 4 more points on str (13 to 15). 13 is relatively cheap just to get your foot in the door for this build and medium armor is decent, especially when you have other defenses to call upon via magic. With 14 dex, you're still only 2 AC points behind plate mail with no disadvantage on stealth or one point behind if you don't care about that. Medium armor and shields can still get magical pluses that make that tiny gap seem much less significant over time.

[PeteNutButter]

I’m currently playing a paladin 6/hexblade 1. The SADness of charisma is just too strong in conjunction with aura of protection.

Stats are 15, 8, 16, 8, 8, 18(+2 ASI). I’m not sure if I’ll keep going up in hexblade or take some sorcerer levels, but the character is performing excellently.

I’m confident I won’t make another cha based character without at least 1 level in hexblade.

[Mikal]

Agree. I don't think heavy armor is enough to justify spending 4 more points on str (13 to 15). 13 is relatively cheap just to get your foot in the door for this build and medium armor is decent, especially when you have other defenses to call upon via magic. With 14 dex, you're still only 2 AC points behind plate mail with no disadvantage on stealth or one point behind if you don't care about that. Medium armor and shields can still get magical pluses that make that tiny gap seem much less significant over time.

Plus this build screams half-elf and elven advantage since you can use it with a bladepact hexblade on any weapon (triple advantage GWM ftw).
As such, you really only need to get 12 str and put one of your +1s into str to make it 13.

My preferred build would probably be
13 (+1)
14 (+1)
14
8
10
17

Take Elven Advantage at 4 to raise Cha to 18 and use it for your chosen style. This of course means you'll want to have 4 levels of Warlock in addition to Sorcerer/Paladin levels, but you can tweak it for a single class dip of Warlock if you're happy using non two handed weapons.

[Dalebert]

I’m confident I won’t make another cha based character without at least 1 level in hexblade.

My shadow sorcerer has 18 AC thx to that 1 level dip. He's still had a hard time surviving in ToA. I can't imagine how squishy he'd be otherwise. Sorcs can't afford mage armor with such limited spells know. My wild mage dipped bard so he could at least wear studded because it was before Xanathar's. I think you may be onto something.

My plan was to dip a 2nd level at 5 to get the nasty EBs but I find I care about that less than advancing as quickly as possible in sorc. I got what I really wanted which was the AC boost. I think I will want to get to lvl 6 sorc (for hound of ill omen) before dipping the 2nd level, maybe later, and then I will definitely stop there. I like the lvl 18 shadow sorc ability.

[Sception]

13 strength (to multiclass paladin) / 14 dex is still /way/ more investment than 15 strength (to wear heavy armor), 8 dex. Granted a +3 dex mod swing carries a lot of other advantages in common saves, skill checks, & initiative rolls, where as the extra carrying capacity from 15 strength instead of 13 will mostly be eaten up by that plate armor.

It's worth noting that the single level hexblade dip doesn't just shore up your MADness (even wearing heavy armor, hex warrior will still probably be improving either your base to hit & damage or or spell DC & varios CHA effects if not both), it also gets you hexblade's curse - a 1/short rest bonus action for a damage bonus (tied to character level, so it scales even with just a one level dip) AND a 19-20 crit range, which is glorious against boss monsters when crit fishing with triple advantage and spell slots to spare on smites.

AND you get a single level 1 spell slot that refreshes on short rests, which doesn't sound like much until you remember that it will probably be negating an entire hit with shield, or else cashing in for 4d8 extra smite damage on a crit.

AND you get to know shield in the first place. Shield is probably the best use of spare first level paladin & sorcerer spell slots so you were absolutely going to use up one of your very limited (especially in a multiclass build) sorcerer slots on it otherwise.

I doubt three or even really two levels of hexblade are worth it in a sorcadin build. Yes, even for darkness/devil's sight, which is frankly overrated in a melee build (EDIT: I was wrong about darkness being target locked, I misremembered that, but the rest of this point still stands: casting darkness in the middle of a scrum is absolutely going to foul up anything your allies are trying to do in a way that a blastlock casting darkness in his own little bubble way over there in the corner just wont). Granted, the second and even third level of warlock are still tempting for other invocations, more & improved short rest slots, and the blade, book, or chain pacts, all of which look very nice for a sorcadin, but unlike the first level, I just don't think they offer quite enough to justify the additional levels burned out of an already overstuffed multiclass build.

Not that I'm any expert, granted.

But that first level? I could hardly imagine not taking it.

[Zene]

That’s the second time recently I’ve seen a comment that enemies can just move out of darkness (maybe it was the same person in another thread?)

Darkness can be centered on a point in space, or on an object. Devil’s Sight combo assumes you’re putting it on an object (like your belt). It moves with you. Enemy runs out? You chase. Allies can’t see in the dark? Run out after you hit.

You might be thinking of Silence, which doesn’t move.

[LordNibbler]

So how would you rank the following for sword and board builds for tankish melee fighter who can effectively blast when needed (because, if I am reading correctly, to use a great weapon one would need 3 levels of warlock to get the blade pact):

Pal2/Hex1/SorcX
Pal2/SorcX
Pal2/HexX
Pal6/Hex1/SorcX
Pal6/SorcX
Pal6/HexX

(Yes, I threw some straight Padlocks into the mix)

[Sception]

You might be thinking of Silence, which doesn’t move.

You're right, and I was absolutely wrong about that. However, Darkness is /still/ overrated for melee builds because, unlike a ranged warlock or shadow sorcerer hurling death rays from their own bubble way off in the corner, the melee warlock carrying her 30 foot diameter darkness bubble into the thick of combat is absolutely lousing things up for their own party almost as much as they are for their enemies.

[Mikal]

You're right, and I was absolutely wrong about that. However, Darkness is /still/ overrated for melee builds because, unlike a ranged warlock or shadow sorcerer hurling death rays from their own bubble way off in the corner, the melee warlock carrying her 30 foot radius darkness bubble into the thick of combat is absolutely lousing things up for their own party almost as much as they are for their enemies.

Only for ranged, and only if the melee-lock isn't smart about positioning.
For melee it's mostly a wash since double disadvantage cancels each other.
Either way, the melee-lock just has to move into his melee range, make his attacks, and move back out. Easy enough to do with a reach weapon, a little harder without.
Regardless, with Shadow of Moil you only have to worry about it from levels 3 to 7. After that you start casting Shadow of Moil, which is superior to Darkness for a melee lock in every way except duration.

[Sception]

Most melee builds - honestly most attack-rolling builds in general, are trying to find advantage some way. shrouding the main scrum in a pall of darkness that your party members can't see through, negating whatever form of advantage they have, is going be a problem. Granting yourself advantage at the cost of taking it away from everyone else in the party isn't really that great a trade off.

It's a nice tool to have, but unless you're fighting solo, or the rest of the party all agree to dip two levels of warlock, or the target is handing out disadvantage anyway, or the rest of your party all provoke saves instead of rolling attacks (and do so with spells and abilities that don't depend on line of sight), well...

Basically, it's a useful trick to be able to pull out, but is considerably more situational than it is for a blaster.

[Zene]

How do y’all see Shadow Blade affecting the sorcadin builds?

I mean, a Pal 2 / Sorc 3 / Warlock 5 can quicken hold person, then make two crit attacks each double-smiting...so there’s definitely a draw there from a nova perspective, which was always the sorcadin’s time to shine.

But since shadowblade damage scales with spell level, is there enough counterbalancing incentive there to level sorcerer more?

(Just a half-formed thought as I wake up this morning...hope to have some better insight a bit later today. But figured I’d throw it to the group in the meantime...)

Edit: To clarify, it’s on both the sorc and lock spell lists. But given warlock’s limited spell slots at any given time, it seems like sorcerer levels might be better to power it. Could be wrong there; or even if right, still might not be a good option.

[PeteNutButter]

How do y’all see Shadow Blade affecting the sorcadin builds?

I mean, a Pal 2 / Sorc 3 / Warlock 5 can quicken hold person, then make two crit attacks each double-smiting...so there’s definitely a draw there from a nova perspective, which was always the sorcadin’s time to shine.

But since shadowblade damage scales with spell level, is there enough counterbalancing incentive there to level sorcerer more?

(Just a half-formed thought as I wake up this morning...hope to have some better insight a bit later today. But figured I’d throw it to the group in the meantime...)

Edit: To clarify, it’s on both the sorc and lock spell lists. But given warlock’s limited spell slots at any given time, it seems like sorcerer levels might be better to power it. Could be wrong there; or even if right, still might not be a good option.

It would lend itself better to a paladin/sorcerer build. Perhaps even the paladin 2/sorcerer x, as it enables highest level slots the fastest, using twin and quicken to make up to 3 attacks per round. Shadow blade doesn't really work with hexblade, as it can't be used with charisma, so it really makes the warlock dip unnecessary.

[Easy_Lee]

Adding one level of hexblade at some point in a Sorcadin build gets you the shield spell, SAD, and Hexblade's curse. Is it worth the one level dip? Yes, it is.

It doesn't much matter when you take the dip, but I'd go paladin first until 6. You can start 16/16/14+ charisma/strength/constitution, and swing a weapon just fine until hexblade at 7, then sorcerer from 8+. Elven Accuracy at 4 is a great way to get your charisma to 18 for sword and board.

Another possibility is to just make a Hexadin. You don't get Quicken this way, but you do get plenty of invocations and can take blade pact so as to use a great weapon.

You could also combine this chassis with coffeelock, but by that point you're just being silly.

[Zene]

It would lend itself better to a paladin/sorcerer build. Perhaps even the paladin 2/sorcerer x, as it enables highest level slots the fastest, using twin and quicken to make up to 3 attacks per round. Shadow blade doesn't really work with hexblade, as it can't be used with charisma, so it really makes the warlock dip unnecessary.

No reason Shadow blade can’t work as hexblade weapon and be used with charisma.

[Easy_Lee]

No reason Shadow blade can’t work as hexblade weapon and be used with charisma.

Costs concentration, though. Interestingly, it would be better for this build than a pure hexblade bladelock as the bladelock extra attack only works with their Pact weapon.

[Mikal]

No reason Shadow blade can’t work as hexblade weapon and be used with charisma.

Except that you can only choose one weapon per long rest so you're using your long rest choice on a spell that lasts for one minute.

Hex Warrior doesn't work on one specific weapon type, but one specific weapon period, so if you lose the weapon you touch so sorry, try again tomorrow. Unless of course it's your bladepact weapon.

[PeteNutButter]

Except that you can only choose one weapon per long rest so you're using your long rest choice on a spell that lasts for one minute.

Hex Warrior doesn't work on one specific weapon type, but one specific weapon period, so if you lose the weapon you touch so sorry, try again tomorrow. Unless of course it's your bladepact weapon.

And you obviously can’t make the Shadow Blade your pact weapon since it both ceases to exist after 1 minute and doesn’t last the 1 hour length it would take to perform the blade pact ritual.

I’m pretty sure it’s intentional to prevent people from using their casting stat to attack with a weapon that scales so well with those same casting slots.

[Mikal]

And you obviously can’t make the Shadow Blade your pact weapon since it both ceases to exist after 1 minute and doesn’t last the 1 hour length it would take to perform the blade pact ritual.

I’m pretty sure it’s intentional to prevent people from using their casting stat to attack with a weapon that scales so well with those same casting slots.

Pretty much my thought as well.

[Easy_Lee]

And you obviously can’t make the Shadow Blade your pact weapon since it both ceases to exist after 1 minute and doesn’t last the 1 hour length it would take to perform the blade pact ritual.

I’m pretty sure it’s intentional to prevent people from using their casting stat to attack with a weapon that scales so well with those same casting slots.

It seems that way, though it doesn't stop a sword bard with a Hexblade dip from going to town with the weapon.

[PeteNutButter]

It seems that way, though it doesn't stop a sword bard with a Hexblade dip from going to town with the weapon.

None of this is to say that the spell is bad for a hexblade dipped cha caster. Most hexblade dips that are relying on cha for weapon attacks will still have at least str or dex at +2 for AC reasons, which means trading your cha to hit and damage for a big damage boost is basically -1 to -3 to hit + a bunch of damage.

[Easy_Lee]

None of this is to say that the spell is bad for a hexblade dipped cha caster. Most hexblade dips that are relying on cha for weapon attacks will still have at least str or dex at +2 for AC reasons, which means trading your cha to hit and damage for a big damage boost is basically -1 to -3 to hit + a bunch of damage.

In dim light or darkness you'll have advantage anyway, so it light make sense to save the spell for such situations. Advantage makes up for - 3, particularly if you also have Elven Accuracy (which I hear is popular on Hexblades).

[Chugger]

Don't lose track of one of the sorcadins' main goals - epic divine smiting.

The longer you put off the rise in sorc levels, the longer it takes for you to be truly epic in the DS'ing category.

Unless this investment to make Elven Ac and GWM and a hexblade dip works and really works well - but at pal 6/hex 4, yeah, you're looking at 10 levels before going sorc. Ouch. I'm trying to get my head around how that trip from lvl 5ish to lvl 15ish is going to be - cuz this is a build that doesn't completely shine til late tier 3 or tier 4. I guess it's landing gwm blows at lvl 8 and that's supposed to fill the gap until DS'ing finally kicks in, late in the procession.

I'm tempted to ignore XgtE and just run a Pal 2/Draconic Sorc x - and (for +1 AL purposes) use SCAG instead for the bb and gfb cantrips. Never get extra attack "officially" from pal but use twin bb/quicken gfb as needed in melee - and get those sorc levels up high asap. Sure it's MAD as hell but you trade for a gaunt of ogre power or a belt of gi str to mitigate that (or dm reward).

If we're going to approach this from an optimization standpoint and not also a "what would be fun for me to play" standpoint, I'm not even sure how to start to make a fair comparison - it's hard - they're so different. The pal/hex/sorc combo w/ xgte does allow some amazing potential that was not possible before. But being a strong, versatile sorc caster very early has great benefit too. Yeah, no aura, so at times it's going to fail STs. Don't think that's a fatal flaw. Because depending on the fight you can go more armored caster instead of gish - and fireball or even control and all that.

Well, I'll have to just make a choice and test drive it - see how it works in practice. I'm so tempted to use xgte stuff I may just have to go w/ it. A pity that the +1 rule keeps out the scag cantrips if using xgte classes, but I guess the other stuff more than makes up for it.

[PeteNutButter]

Don't lose track of one of the sorcadins' main goals - epic divine smiting.

The longer you put off the rise in sorc levels, the longer it takes for you to be truly epic in the DS'ing category.

Unless this investment to make Elven Ac and GWM and a hexblade dip works and really works well - but at pal 6/hex 4, yeah, you're looking at 10 levels before going sorc. Ouch. I'm trying to get my head around how that trip from lvl 5ish to lvl 15ish is going to be - cuz this is a build that doesn't completely shine til late tier 3 or tier 4. I guess it's landing gwm blows at lvl 8 and that's supposed to fill the gap until DS'ing finally kicks in, late in the procession.

I'm tempted to ignore XgtE and just run a Pal 2/Draconic Sorc x - and (for +1 AL purposes) use SCAG instead for the bb and gfb cantrips. Never get extra attack "officially" from pal but use twin bb/quicken gfb as needed in melee - and get those sorc levels up high asap. Sure it's MAD as hell but you trade for a gaunt of ogre power or a belt of gi str to mitigate that (or dm reward).

If we're going to approach this from an optimization standpoint and not also a "what would be fun for me to play" standpoint, I'm not even sure how to start to make a fair comparison - it's hard - they're so different. The pal/hex/sorc combo w/ xgte does allow some amazing potential that was not possible before. But being a strong, versatile sorc caster very early has great benefit too. Yeah, no aura, so at times it's going to fail STs. Don't think that's a fatal flaw. Because depending on the fight you can go more armored caster instead of gish - and fireball or even control and all that.

Well, I'll have to just make a choice and test drive it - see how it works in practice. I'm so tempted to use xgte stuff I may just have to go w/ it. A pity that the +1 rule keeps out the scag cantrips if using xgte classes, but I guess the other stuff more than makes up for it.

Pal 2/Draconic sorcerer x was my first character in AL. Still probably the most overpowered one I've built. I went Sword and Board, as I feel smites are enough for damage output, rather not get hit. As long as I was smart and didn't blow all my resources, it was fine imitating extra attack with twin BB and quicken GFB. It's a full NOVA build, so you have to be comfortable letting the rest of the party do all the cool stuff until that last fight for the day (when you throw the kitchen sink at em).

If it weren't for AL limitations I'd recommend S&B paladin 2/hexblade 1/sorc x. It's a bit behind on ASIs, but SADness fixes it all long term. But since AL limitations prevent hexblade and BB combinations, my current character is just paladin 6/hexblade 1. I'll probably just keep going in hexblade, as sorcerer isn't as attractive without the melee cantrips. Short rest smites are fun anyways.

[Klorox]

Let's assume half elf:

13/14/14/9/10/17

Hexblade at level 1, multi paladin for 6 levels, and finish up sorcerer. You'll want to maximize that CHA, get the elven accuracy and war caster feats. This is possible at character level 15.

OR

16/10/14/8/10/17

Paladin for 6 levels, sorcerer for the rest. You'll want to maximize that STR and CHA, get the elven accuracy and war caster feats. You can't get all that. You can drop a feat or one score to 18. If you drop elven accuracy, you will be able to get slightly better stats since you can afford to start with a 16 CHA rather than 17.

Option 1 gets all the added benefits of better all around stats. If you're caught without armor, your AC is still decent (15 if you're a draconic sorcerer, 17 if you can pick up your physical shield as you're woken up in camp), and you can stealth.

Option 2 gets one better AC.

As many cleric players have learned from taking shillelagh, making it so you can all but eliminate a stat you'd usually need has tremendous benefits. If you're cool with the roleplaying implications of binding your soul to a pact with a weapon, I think it's a much better number crunching option.

[Asmotherion]

I always liked Gish Builds with Eldritch Blast (and Agonising/Repelling), so I always diped Warlock 3 even before Hexblade was a thing in UA, not to mention Xanathar's. I then used Pact of the tome to use a quarterstaff as my default weapon, as I didn't want to invest in STR on my gish more than the bare minimum (13).

Now overall this is an improvement; Instead of feeling like you take Pact of the Tome as a necessary Patch to Gish properly without getting too much MADness, you consiously choose how you'll invest your Gish.

I don't think any choice it lesser really. You need one good Mental Stat and at your option one good Physical Stat (which could or could not also be your dexterity).

Hex Warior is one thing; Sure, you don't need to use your consentration for it, and sure, you can use it for Shadow Blade now for example... but again, with Shadow blade, and Booming Blade for example, and a good dexterity score, you don't really need to be a Sorcadin anymore, you could be a Shadow Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight and fight within 10 feet of a Paladin for the bonus to your saves, if you want that so much...

It really is Xanathar's guide to everything... gish that is, as with the new options, nothing is a default Gish build. A lot of options for mix and matching to build a gish as you want it.

[Zene]

Don't lose track of one of the sorcadins' main goals - epic divine smiting.

The longer you put off the rise in sorc levels, the longer it takes for you to be truly epic in the DS'ing category.

Unless this investment to make Elven Ac and GWM and a hexblade dip works and really works well - but at pal 6/hex 4, yeah, you're looking at 10 levels before going sorc. Ouch. I'm trying to get my head around how that trip from lvl 5ish to lvl 15ish is going to be - cuz this is a build that doesn't completely shine til late tier 3 or tier 4. I guess it's landing gwm blows at lvl 8 and that's supposed to fill the gap until DS'ing finally kicks in, late in the procession.

I'm tempted to ignore XgtE and just run a Pal 2/Draconic Sorc x - and (for +1 AL purposes) use SCAG instead for the bb and gfb cantrips. Never get extra attack "officially" from pal but use twin bb/quicken gfb as needed in melee - and get those sorc levels up high asap. Sure it's MAD as hell but you trade for a gaunt of ogre power or a belt of gi str to mitigate that (or dm reward).

If we're going to approach this from an optimization standpoint and not also a "what would be fun for me to play" standpoint, I'm not even sure how to start to make a fair comparison - it's hard - they're so different. The pal/hex/sorc combo w/ xgte does allow some amazing potential that was not possible before. But being a strong, versatile sorc caster very early has great benefit too. Yeah, no aura, so at times it's going to fail STs. Don't think that's a fatal flaw. Because depending on the fight you can go more armored caster instead of gish - and fireball or even control and all that.

Well, I'll have to just make a choice and test drive it - see how it works in practice. I'm so tempted to use xgte stuff I may just have to go w/ it. A pity that the +1 rule keeps out the scag cantrips if using xgte classes, but I guess the other stuff more than makes up for it.

I have a late T3 Pal 2/Wild Sorc X. It is perhaps my most fun character to play, mechanically; and with the SCAG cantrips, damage is off the charts.

I suspect it is one of the few pre-XGE dpr builds that will still hold up in the post-XGE world.