Is gloom stalker broken?

[Ralanr]

So a friend of mine wants to play a gloom stalker ranger. My DM looked at it and basically banned it on the grounds of being broken.

His reasoning: The level 3 spike where they get a 1d8 in damage on their extra attack (in addition to that extra attack power). Being literally invisible in darkness to darkvision, and the power of saving proficiency changes in iron mind (even though int and cha saves are weak saves).

He's more or less fine with the last two abilities and he believes that the abilities on their own aren't broken. But when combined all together and having no rests required for them seems broken.
So I want to ask (and my DM agreed on me asking): is this subclass busted or is there some good reasoning on why it is balanced?

[Strangways]

So a friend of mine wants to play a gloom stalker ranger. My DM looked at it and basically banned it on the grounds of being broken.

His reasoning: The level 3 spike where they get a 1d8 in damage on their extra attack (in addition to that extra attack power). Being literally invisible in darkness to darkvision, and the power of saving proficiency changes in iron mind (even though int and cha saves are weak saves).

He's more or less fine with the last two abilities and he believes that the abilities on their own aren't broken. But when combined all together and having no rests required for them seems broken.
So I want to ask (and my DM agreed on me asking): is this subclass busted or is there some good reasoning on why it is balanced?

Does your DM realize that the Gloom Stalker's level 3 ability to get an extra attack with an extra d8 of damage only applies in the first round of combat?

And, no dispute that being invisible to darkvision can be powerful, but it does nothing at all when fighting outdoors during the day, and not that much against any opponents capable of generating light. It also, potentially, will mean your allies won't be able to see you in darkness either, a major consideration if you're down and need healing.

[Specter]

It all relies on the invisibility feature of level 3. He needs to answer these questions:

- Is the campaign going to be set primordially on dark places (like the Underdark)?
- Does the rest of the party have darkvision, or are there some humans/etc. in it?

If 'yes' to both, then I think it will give him a headache. Otherwise, it shouldn't be too much.

[Dalebert]

It also, potentially, will mean your allies won't be able to see you in darkness either, a major consideration if you're down and need healing.

There are fairly easy fixes. Put a coin with Continual Flame in between your palm and the pommel of your weapon. Now if you pass out, you drop your weapon and the coin is revealed making light.

[Finger6842]

There are fairly easy fixes. Put a coin with Continual Flame in between your palm and the pommel of your weapon. Now if you pass out, you drop your weapon and the coin is revealed making light.

And the Enemy Horde will see you as well.

I haven't tried a Gloom yet but i'd like to, they don't seem that powerful to me since there are all kinds of circumstances or counters that will affect it, really the concern is what happens when you MC into Rogue...Just WOW. New hybrid called Shadow Assassin or some such will be all but unstoppable (at night at least). Toss in some route to the darkness spell and you reach true power.

Ok, yes, that one ability is broken, sort of.

[PeteNutButter]

It might help if people recognize that monsters, at least monstrous humanoids, don't live in total darkness. I mean they could, but anyone with darkvision still suffers disadvantage on perception checks in the dark, and that's no way to live a life.

The lore and published adventures have plenty of goblins and orcs and whatnot using torches and lights in their caves. If a DM plays around that, it could make combat with the gloom stalker even more interesting, as he tries to play around light sources and avoid them whenever possible.

Keep in mind that attacking foes, still reveals the attackers location. It's basically the Devil's Sight Darkness combo at the same level a warlock/shadow sorcerer can do it. The upside is it doesn't cost any action or a resource, but the downside is how incredibly dependent it is on the environment and enemies.

It could be overpowered in the Underdark, but in most campaigns it probably won't be on enough to be overpowered. Furthermore, it's so easily countered that the DM can counter it in a heartbeat, and no one would even question it. "These areas have an enchantment that keeps them dimly lit at all times." "Torches line the walls every ten feet."

[sir_argo]

It also, potentially, will mean your allies won't be able to see you in darkness either, a major consideration if you're down and need healing.

Not sure I agree with that. When I read the trait, it sounds like an active ability not unlike the Stealth skill. When you become incapacitated, I wouldn't think the trait continues to work. Might be something for Sage Advice

[Willie the Duck]

Being invisible is not the general immunity to detection or being attacked that it once was.

The class has many powerful benefits, some of which can be win-switches to very specific adventures that the DM could want to run, but it is decidedly not without limitations. I rate the class roughly with allowing a player to play an Aarokocra in terms of annoyance to DM... yes it can constrain what types of adventure you might design for the characters, but on most adventures total, the abilities are nice but not dominating.

[Talamare]

Wait until your DM reads about Barbarians!

[Talamare]

Let's go over the Gloom

+Wisdom to Initiative... Good bonus, but not a real power increase
+1 Attack during First Round of Combat... So like Rogue Assassination, but kinda worse...
+1d8 damage per attack during First Round of Combat... Minor Nova Boost
+Invisibility while in Darkness versus enemies relying on Dark Vision... HOLY ULTRA SPECIFIC CONDITION BATMAN... that is easily countered by a Torch, or a Light Cantrip...
+Proficiency in a Saving Throw... Situationally Useful, decent bonus but nothing insane
+OPT Miss with an Attack? Attack Again!... Works based on failing, and even then only brings you to success levels. Also, OPT. Good Ability, but nothing broken.
+'Capstone' OPR Enemy doesn't have advantage? Give them a Blind Disadvantage!... Situational since you can't know if the attack would hit, not very powerful for a lv15 capstone. Uses up your Reaction. Worse than Defensive Dualist Feat


Overall... I would rate the class...

Maybe like a Low 'C' grade, or a High 'D'

Potentially slightly higher if you're ONLY facing Dark Vision Creatures who refuse to use Torches and other sources of Light. Which is another incredibly situational campaign choice.

[agnos]

It’s going to depend. Are you running OotA or another campaign where the invisibility to darkvision is likely to come up most of the time? If the answer is yes, then you’re probably going to be broken.

I won’t lie and say the class isn’t strong, because it is. The class has a super early power spike and one that’s, IMO, better than Assassin’s. But as time goes on, the nova potential drops dramatically. That’s when the class is just above average.

[lperkins2]

Does your DM realize that the Gloom Stalker's level 3 ability to get an extra attack with an extra d8 of damage only applies in the first round of combat?

And, no dispute that being invisible to darkvision can be powerful, but it does nothing at all when fighting outdoors during the day, and not that much against any opponents capable of generating light. It also, potentially, will mean your allies won't be able to see you in darkness either, a major consideration if you're down and need healing.

The more likely scenario is the party sorceress who loves fireball and other AOEs hitting you with them... I no longer bring my familiar along, and don't bother with Armor of Agathys when sneaking out in front to tank, since about half the time they get toasted by a team mate in the first round of combat.

[ProseBeforeHos]

Let's go over the Gloom

+Wisdom to Initiative... Good bonus, but not a real power increase
+1 Attack during First Round of Combat... So like Rogue Assassination, but kinda worse...
+1d8 damage per attack during First Round of Combat... Minor Nova Boost
+Invisibility while in Darkness versus enemies relying on Dark Vision... HOLY ULTRA SPECIFIC CONDITION BATMAN... that is easily countered by a Torch, or a Light Cantrip...
+Proficiency in a Saving Throw... Situationally Useful, decent bonus but nothing insane
+OPT Miss with an Attack? Attack Again!... Works based on failing, and even then only brings you to success levels. Also, OPT. Good Ability, but nothing broken.
+'Capstone' OPR Enemy doesn't have advantage? Give them a Blind Disadvantage!... Situational since you can't know if the attack would hit, not very powerful for a lv15 capstone. Uses up your Reaction. Worse than Defensive Dualist Feat


Overall... I would rate the class...

Maybe like a Low 'C' grade, or a High 'D'

Potentially slightly higher if you're ONLY facing Dark Vision Creatures who refuse to use Torches and other sources of Light. Which is another incredibly situational campaign choice.

Couldn't disagree more. Please refer to my guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541992-Prose-s-Guide-to-Xanathar-s-Guide-to-Everything) for a more detailed breakdown of the Gloom Stalker. I'd rate it A with the PHB ranger, A+ when combined with UA ranger (GM's don't allow this).

[Specter]

Let's go over the Gloom

+Wisdom to Initiative... Good bonus, but not a real power increase
+1 Attack during First Round of Combat... So like Rogue Assassination, but kinda worse...
+1d8 damage per attack during First Round of Combat... Minor Nova Boost
+Invisibility while in Darkness versus enemies relying on Dark Vision... HOLY ULTRA SPECIFIC CONDITION BATMAN... that is easily countered by a Torch, or a Light Cantrip...
+Proficiency in a Saving Throw... Situationally Useful, decent bonus but nothing insane
+OPT Miss with an Attack? Attack Again!... Works based on failing, and even then only brings you to success levels. Also, OPT. Good Ability, but nothing broken.
+'Capstone' OPR Enemy doesn't have advantage? Give them a Blind Disadvantage!... Situational since you can't know if the attack would hit, not very powerful for a lv15 capstone. Uses up your Reaction. Worse than Defensive Dualist Feat

Overall... I would rate the class...

Maybe like a Low 'C' grade, or a High 'D'

Potentially slightly higher if you're ONLY facing Dark Vision Creatures who refuse to use Torches and other sources of Light. Which is another incredibly situational campaign choice.

- The invisibility is far from ultra-situational, because most dungeons are in enclosed, dark spaces. If your entire party also has darkvision, not only will you ambush everything, but the enemy won't even be able to tell you're there until you attack them, and even then they'll have to attack you with disadvantage.

- Proficiency in Wisdom saving throws is far from situational.

- Stalker's Flurry lets you reroll any missed attack, which means Sharpshooters and GWMs can take the -5 to hit much more easily. Also, any 1 or 2 rolled in anattack (which would be misses anyway) can also be rerolled, so this ability shouldn't be underestimated.


Couldn't disagree more. Please refer to my guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541992-Prose-s-Guide-to-Xanathar-s-Guide-to-Everything) for a more detailed breakdown of the Gloom Stalker. I'd rate it A with the PHB ranger, A+ when combined with UA ranger (GM's don't allow this).

It's not cool to ask people to go somewhere else to read your opinion.

[Theodoxus]

After having played with a guy going UA Dark Stalker/Assassin, in OotA - it's decent, but hardly broken. He took the Stalker feat, which essentially simulated the 'invisible to darkvision' by allowing him to shoot and hide (the removing disad to perception in dim light was actually more broken than anything the class got).

I have a suspicion that most people seeing the 'invisible to darkvision' haven't actually played a lot with darkvision; or not correctly, at any rate. Seeing only black and white is pretty detrimental. Having disadvantage on perception checks goes both ways - unless the Gloomer is taking Stalker at some point, he'll be just as crappy a scout as any other darkvision only reliant scout.

Outside the hiding rules, the 5E take on light levels is probably the worst. Yeah, they wanted to simplify things from previous editions, like combining low-light with darkvision; but it actually was, IMO, the exact wrong thing to do.

After reading the ranger archetypes in Xan's, I still went right back to the Hunter. Give me an extra d8 of damage every round; or the OP Horde Breaker anytime... It makes Frenzy Barbarians cry :smallwink:

[Unoriginal]

but the enemy won't even be able to tell you're there until you attack them

That's not how Invisibilty work. You have a point on the disadvantage, though, but still, it's far from OP.

[Specter]

That's not how Invisibilty work. You have a point on the disadvantage, though, but still, it's far from OP.

I'm assuming the Ranger will be moving silently all the time. Of course, the Stealth check might fail, but I bet it will be solid against most things.

[Ralanr]

Wait until your DM reads about Barbarians!


He finds them fine actually. Though with everyone's argument I'm starting to see the balance around gloomstalker.

[xen]

Does the DM allow wizards in the campaign? If the answer is yes, then no it's not broken.

[Naanomi]

It’s strong for a ranger subclass, but still stuck to a ranger chassis it is nothing to write home about as a whole

[Talamare]

- The invisibility is far from ultra-situational, because most dungeons are in enclosed, dark spaces. If your entire party also has darkvision, not only will you ambush everything, but the enemy won't even be able to tell you're there until you attack them, and even then they'll have to attack you with disadvantage.

- Proficiency in Wisdom saving throws is far from situational.

- Stalker's Flurry lets you reroll any missed attack, which means Sharpshooters and GWMs can take the -5 to hit much more easily. Also, any 1 or 2 rolled in anattack (which would be misses anyway) can also be rerolled, so this ability shouldn't be underestimated.



It's not cool to ask people to go somewhere else to read your opinion.

- Assuming you have dungeons
- A Single Torch in the area, and your ability is gone
- As well as you just said your ENTIRE PARTY
- Assuming you don't get ambushed yourself from the fact you have disadvantage on all perspective checks

- Requires enemies to use Wisdom Saving Throws against you, might see a ton of use... might not see any use...

- It's not bad, but it's also not increasing you further, besides I did say it was a good ability

[Throne12]

Ok enemy's can't still hear and smell were the gloom stalker is they just can't see him. So that can still attack it just making thoes attacks at disadvantage. It no different then a devil sight warlock darkness trick. But it Relies on if the DM put the party in a area that's in non magical darkness. Me as a DM I don't even use darkness in dungeons or caves any more anyway so unless I'm running in the underdark most of the time that feature is going to go unused.


Darkness and dark vision is just to much of a hassle to deal with players also arguing with me about things so caves have torches Ancient tomes have ever burning fires or magical lighting ect ect.

[Samayu]

I recently played a campaign that was almost entirely in the Underdark. Almost any time we were in populated areas, there was dim light.

I guarantee that your DM is going to be less annoyed by this character's invisibility than you are. The monsters will simply find different targets. Faced with the prospect of attacking the ranger with disadvantage (when they even know where he is), or attacking someone else, they will attack someone else. Of course if you have a tank in the party, you will want this. But it does mean there's a greater chance for the monsters to attack the mage.

Also, make sure everybody understands the rules for invisibility and hiding. Stealth tests and (passive) perception tests to know where the ranger is will be happening a lot.

I haven't seen a ruling on it, but since the wording is "you are also adept at evading creatures that rely on darkvision," I would assume it only works when you're conscious, if not when you're actively evading.

[Specter]

- Assuming you have dungeons
- A Single Torch in the area, and your ability is gone
- As well as you just said your ENTIRE PARTY
- Assuming you don't get ambushed yourself from the fact you have disadvantage on all perspective checks

- Requires enemies to use Wisdom Saving Throws against you, might see a ton of use... might not see any use...

- It's not bad, but it's also not increasing you further, besides I did say it was a good ability

- Assuming you have dungeons? As all the published adventures have multiple times, in a game called Dungeons & Dragons?
- If you do get ambushed while you're invisible, that's another way the ability is protecting you.
- Wisdom saves are not a matter of if, but when. Charm and fear effects are predominant in all tiers of play.

[Throne12]

- Assuming you have dungeons? As all the published adventures have multiple times, in a game called Dungeons & Dragons?
- If you do get ambushed while you're invisible, that's another way the ability is protecting you.
- Wisdom saves are not a matter of if, but when. Charm and fear effects are predominant in all tiers of play.

In hotdq, RoT, SkT, so far in ToA, most of CoS. We didn't encounter a lot of darkness.

[MrStabby]

Are they too powerful? Generally not but if you are going to be doing most of your play below level 8 then they can be brutally strong.

As with all things, a lot of this depends on DM style. If your DM goes for difficulty through lots of fights rather than really tough fights then you have a big advantage - twice the number of fights means twice the frequency with which the extra attack on the first turn is relevant. Just as one example.

All in all though, once past level 8 they are not going to compete with a main caster for impact on the game.

At levels 1-3, yeah they are really powerful (but hey, if a moon druid isn't a problem for the table then this won't be) and these levels fly by.



More important is possibly the question of are they fun - not just for the player in question but for the whole table. Maybe. They have some good fluff and RP potential, some out of combat abilities - they are pretty resilient so not too long out of fights in general. Their nova capability is good - but if nova capability is problem to DMs then ban paladin before this.

I like the class/setup a s a pretty balanced thing overall. An OK all rounder with a few clear areas of strength. Tough enough to survive but not to really tank, nova abilities that can help end a combat quicker but not enough to make a paladin jealous, solid at will damage but dedicated fighters can be doing better. Good supporting skills like stealth or perception but no expertise like a rogue.

[Necroticplague]

I don't see why 'invisibility vs. darkvision in the dark' is a big deal. It's basically just re-levelling the playing field after Darkvision unbalances it. Normally, you'd be invisible vs. anyone in darkness. Darkvision counters that. Gloomstalker re-counters that, so you can stealth by things based on it being dark again.

[rbstr]

The Gloomstalker is pretty good. But it's nothing out of the bounds of balance. In straight combat it's not really any stronger than the Hunter or Horizon Walker can be.

An extra attack and some extra damage in the first round is very strong, but they don't get any extra damage in additional rounds. If you go more than like two rounds both Hunter and Horizon Walker will walk away having done more damage (depends a bit on what level and kind of enemies you compare at)
The invisibility is strong but not really crazy good. It's only good in total darkness.
Wisdom save proficiency is a good feature but not one that's too strong for an archetype feature. This is something you can get as a half-feat after all.

Re-rolling a miss is a good level 11 combat feature but for from the strongest of its kind. Pretty much every martial gets a good average damage bump at 11.

Reaction to give disadvantage is, again, pretty good but in line with the kinds of stuff others get.

[greenstone]

The level 3 spike where they get a 1d8 in damage on their extra attack (in addition to that extra attack power).

This only applies on the first round of combat. It is good, but no better than what a PHB Assassin Rogue gets.


Being literally invisible in darkness to darkvision,

Not at all. First, it only applies while you are attempting to hide. Second, all it does is remove the foe's ability to use darkvision. They can still see you and hear you and smell you, it is just that they act as if they were a creature without darkvision.


and the power of saving proficiency changes in iron mind (even though int and cha saves are weak saves).

I have found, in playing my Ranger, that the extra save is something that helps with the Ranger being very MAD. So far, though, it's the CHA saves that have been screwing me (from ghosts in particular, arrgghh I hate 'em!).

Overall the Ranger is holding his own in the group. Now the Bladesinger is no longer with us, he has the highest AC. Sneaking around hasn't happened much - in almost all encounters, the one character not skilled in stealth has decided to sneak in, get caught, and trigger combat before the sneaky characters get in position for their alpha strikes.

Overall, the Ranger is not overpowered, just powerful.

[Easy_Lee]

It's hard to say not knowing anything else about the campaign.

Let's define broken to mean better than other characters by a significant margin. Is the Gloom Stalker broken? In a party with a TWF fighter, a life cleric, and a wild magic sorcerer, he might be. In a party with a PM fighter, a life cleric / lore bard, and a sorlock, the Gloom Stalker definitely isn't broken.

The good news is that you can't be too broken in 5e by yourself. True brokenness comes from coordinating with a friend; one can combine complimentary characters to much greater effect than the sum of their parts. I don't think the DM ought to have banned the archetype. The likelihood that banning one archetype will have any kind of a beneficial effect on character balance is small. A vindictive player will find an even better way to interfere with the campaign, just to spite the DM.

[Talamare]

The good news is that you can't be too broken in 5e by yourself. True brokenness comes from coordinating with a friend; one can combine complimentary characters to much greater effect than the sum of their parts. I don't think the DM ought to have banned the archetype. The likelihood that banning one archetype will have any kind of a beneficial effect on character balance is small. A vindictive player will find an even better way to interfere with the campaign, just to spite the DM.

Except for Barbarians

Unless a fight specifically has a ton of control, they probably don't really need you

[SharkForce]

Except for Barbarians

Unless a fight specifically has a ton of control, they probably don't really need you

and then you get into a situation that isn't a melee brawl, and the barbarian stops looking particularly good.

barbarians are quite good at doing damage in melee. but they're pretty one-dimensional. they'll have proficiency in a handful of skills, but it's very unlikely for those skills to cover anywhere near all the situations you might want to excel in, particularly since there's a fairly substantial focus on physical attributes (especially strength) and checks in the barbarian's kit.

[Klorox]

Broken? No. But we finally have a good ranger.

[Silkensword]

Not on its own, no! It can be made extremely powerful and almost broken by putting some levels into fighter, as the Gloomstalkers "Dread Ambusher" feature stacks with action surge, assuming you use it on your first turn in combat, giving you 4 attacks in the first round at level 5!

[GlenSmash!]

Broken? No. But we finally have a good ranger.

This is how I feel as well.

[Specter]

Except for Barbarians

Unless a fight specifically has a ton of control, they probably don't really need you

Except when it comes to his most spiteful nemesis... the elusive flying anything!

[Talamare]

Except when it comes to his most spiteful nemesis... the elusive flying anything!

Aarockra Barbie

[ZorroGames]

Aarockra Barbie

Is that common? Is Aarocka requiring DM buy-in to play?

[Willie the Duck]

Necro thread is necro'd.

[ZorroGames]

Necro thread is necro'd.

Did not notice the date.

[sightlessrealit]

What if the Gloomstalker is in darkness, is in Silances radius, and is owderless. How are they detactable?

[Silkensword]

What if the Gloomstalker is in darkness, is in Silances radius, and is owderless. How are they detactable?

Tremorsense, True Seeing, Blindsight, turning on a light,

[sightlessrealit]

Tremorsense, True Seeing, Blindsight, turning on a light,

Blindsight doesn't work as that relies on sound. An argument can also be made for tremorsense not working for the same reason. Truesight fair, torch fair but assume you have nothing to make a light.

[Silkensword]

Not all Blindsight relies on sound, that of a Bat does, as it is specified as echolocation, but that of an ooze for example would be unaffected, and starting to get into particulars with tremorsense gets you down a rabbit hole where if -all- vibration is ceased within the sphere of effect, it'd freeze to absolute zero and break the universe.

[sightlessrealit]

Not all Blindsight relies on sound, that of a Bat does, as it is specified as echolocation, but that of an ooze for example would be unaffected, and starting to get into particulars with tremorsense gets you down a rabbit hole where if -all- vibration is ceased within the sphere of effect, it'd freeze to absolute zero and break the universe.

I'd go with the breaking of the universe one.

[Fnissalot]

People overhype it IMO. You lose stealth after the first attack so your bonus attack will either not have advantage or you will not be hidden until the next round. It is not always possible to attack on the first turn of combat either and then gloom stalker is pretty terrible. The invisibility is very easy to break and your long term damage output will be worse than the other three martial ranger subclasses.

Stalkers flurry makes you deal more reliable damage but gloomstalkers have been underperforming in our group before that level. Slayers prey, planar warrior and Colossus Slayer has on average dealt more damage when we played.

Edit: Missed that it was an old thread. =(

[sophontteks]

EDIT: didn't notice this was nercoed.

[Malifice]

- The invisibility is far from ultra-situational, because most dungeons are in enclosed, dark spaces. If your entire party also has darkvision, not only will you ambush everything, but the enemy won't even be able to tell you're there until you attack them, and even then they'll have to attack you with disadvantage.

Depends on the result of your Stealth check doesnt it?

Invisibility [is not = to] 'auto stealth'.

All invisibility does regarding stealth is it counts as heavy obscurement, permitting a Stealth check to hide [as an action].

Seeing as Rangers dont get cunning action [no bonus action hiding till later in level] or expertise to Stealth, it's really not that good an ability unless your Gloom Stalker takes some Rogue levels.

[Malifice]

What if the Gloomstalker is in darkness, is in Silances radius, and is owderless. How are they detactable?

Footprints in the mud or dirt, or compressed carpet or grass. Foliage bending back as they move through it. Swirling smoke and fog as they walk about. Touching them as they brush past you, bumping into you. Etc.

Id be more than happy to handwaive a Stealth check for a silenced and invisible (and odorless) PC in many circumstances though, or at a bare minimum grant advantage to the Stealth Check to take the Hide action.