Rogue 1/knowledge cleric 1/lore bard 18.

[Klorox]

Are the two dips worth it?

I can’t decide if shield and medium armor proficiency are worth slowing down my bard progression.

I can’t decide if the 4 expertises on a character who is a skill monkey is worth it, since the two dips take away from JoaT.

Maybe I’ll just do knowledge cleric 1/bard 19.

I’m not sure where to go here.

Of course, since the game probably won’t hit level 20, perhaps going straight bard is best. 🤷*♂️🤷*♂️🤷*♂️

[nickl_2000]

This post, like a lot of others really depends on your party. Are you in a party where you need that much expertise? Or will jack of all trades and your normal profs be enough?

Are you a combat based party, or do you end up making skill checks all the time?

[bid]

Cleric 1 is the fastest way to AC19. You only need Dex14 and some gold to reach that. Half elf can easily start 10 14 14 11 13 16. Any +2 Cha can end 8 10 13 or better.

Rogue 1 is... not as good. You get more skills and expertise, earlier, but it kills your casting.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Weigh the Cantrips and short rest benefits from Warlock and the Cantrips and background from Sorcered before taking the Rogue 1 dip.

Besides that, Rogue 1 might be my favorite Star Wars movie and sounds cool to say :)

[Klorox]

This post, like a lot of others really depends on your party. Are you in a party where you need that much expertise? Or will jack of all trades and your normal profs be enough?

Are you a combat based party, or do you end up making skill checks all the time?

Combat based party. Campaign starts at level 1 in a few weeks.

Rogue (going for assassin)
Tempest cleric
Barbarian (probably bear, considering zealot)
Wizard (going for abjuration)
Fighter (EK or BM)

I want to be a bard. I'm pretty sure rogue 1 is out, but I'm not sure if I should start with knowledge cleric or just go straight bard.

[nickl_2000]

You've got a large enough party that someone should have prof in all skills then. Go straight bard so your spells go higher sooner.

At least that is my opinion.


Also if you want medium armor and a shield while being more SAD in general a hexblade dip is perfect for a bard

[Finger6842]

Combat based party. Campaign starts at level 1 in a few weeks.

Rogue (going for assassin)
Tempest cleric
Barbarian (probably bear, considering zealot)
Wizard (going for abjuration)
Fighter (EK or BM)

I want to be a bard. I'm pretty sure rogue 1 is out, but I'm not sure if I should start with knowledge cleric or just go straight bard.

Looks like a fun party. It's hard to make that decision early since a Cleric dip makes the Bard pretty MAD. You may want to wait for your stats to see what's possible. A spare 13 is harder to come by than you would think since priority will likely be Cha, Dex, Con, xxx. Even using Str as my dump stat I still wound up with 11 in both Int and Wis. With a cleric in your party already you don't really need to heal much, just the occasional backup cast. Early MC's are tough, I typically wait until level 7 myself though I do understand and share your AC concerns. For role choices, scout will be filled by the rogue so no worries if you go with med/heavy armor. Healing will be covered by the cleric but as a Tempest you will want to back him up some. I recommend you avoid tanking so as with all Bard builds, a control spell or 3 would be great. Blasting is covered with a Wizard and a Tempest. Based on all this your role is likely to be ranged, control, damage and healing (in combat). You can already do all of that so I wouldn't MC early myself.

[bid]

Looks like a fun party. It's hard to make that decision early since a Cleric dip makes the Bard pretty MAD.
MAD is not about initial stats, MAD is about where you have to spend your ASI. If anything, cleric 1 makes a bard SAD, since you never need to raise above Dex14.

That being said, hexblade is an even easier way to be SAD with Dex14. (as nickl_2000 said)

[Klorox]

MAD is not about initial stats, MAD is about where you have to spend your ASI. If anything, cleric 1 makes a bard SAD, since you never need to raise above Dex14.

That being said, hexblade is an even easier way to be SAD with Dex14. (as nickl_2000 said)

I have an issue with warlocks. I can't wrap my head around just a dip into the class.

[Finger6842]

MAD is not about initial stats, MAD is about where you have to spend your ASI. If anything, cleric 1 makes a bard SAD, since you never need to raise above Dex14.

That being said, hexblade is an even easier way to be SAD with Dex14. (as nickl_2000 said)

It appears I misunderstand MAD since I thought it had to do with needing a 13+ in a stat that is not currently one of your prime stats, which would effectively steal your ASI from those prime stats.

to MC cleric in this case would need a 13 wisdom which I've never had on a Bard build.

I'll have to read up on MAD and SAD, thanks.

[bid]

I have an issue with warlocks. I can't wrap my head around just a dip into the class.
"I don't feel like it" is one of the best reasons when picking a role to play.

Did you think of a race?
- 10 14 14 11 13 16 for half-elf is classic
- 8 14 14 11 13 16 for scourge aasimar
- 8 14 14 10 13 16 for tiefling/yuanti
- 8 14 14 9 14 16 for scourge/protector aasimar

[Zene]

My vote is straight bard to 18. Take those dips at the end, if you get there, and if you feel you still need them.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Lore Bard level 7 is pretty underwhelming except that I'll get Polymorph I suppose.

If I take a dip into Wizard or Sorcerer I'll do it then.

[Jakinbandw]

If you want to get kicked out of you group go cleric 1 bard x, then point out you can prepare any spell on the cleric list and cast it using your spell slots.

[MrStabby]

If you want to get kicked out of you group go cleric 1 bard x, then point out you can prepare any spell on the cleric list and cast it using your spell slots.

Well, any cleric spell as long as it is level 1.

[HolyDraconus]

Going variant human picks up an extra skill and expertise, if that matters

[Crgaston]

I’m playing a Knowledge Cleric 1/Rogue 1/ Wizard 3 right now. Those 2 one level dips really set up the personality and skill set for the character. It’s trading depth for breadth. The rogue dip might not be worth it on a bard, since you’ll have expertise and JoaT, but then again, expertise in 6 skills at L5 and 8 at 12 covers a lot of situations.

Wisdom is never a bad stat to boost. Especially for a social character. Expertise in insight is fantastic for figuring out if NPCs are lying to you.

As a support character you’ll still have useful spells to buff your party (Bless!) during combat, so the delay in getting higher level spells might not sting as badly as if you were a blaster.

[Chugger]

I'd find it hard to imagine any post xgte bard not 1-dipping hexblade.

A 1 dip in rogue for what? A d6 sneak attack? A 1 dip in cleric for what? Healing word and a couple other spells? Bard gets healing word. For color - for role playing okay sure. But watering down bard makes little sense. You take 2 other levels you're perpetually 2 levels behind. If what you get with these dips is worth it to you, fine. The 1 dip in hex is so amazing it's worth it. The others - hey it's your character. I wouldn't do it, for the most part.

[Spacehamster]

I'd find it hard to imagine any post xgte bard not 1-dipping hexblade.

A 1 dip in rogue for what? A d6 sneak attack? A 1 dip in cleric for what? Healing word and a couple other spells? Bard gets healing word. For color - for role playing okay sure. But watering down bard makes little sense. You take 2 other levels you're perpetually 2 levels behind. If what you get with these dips is worth it to you, fine. The 1 dip in hex is so amazing it's worth it. The others - hey it's your character. I wouldn't do it, for the most part.

Dip in rogue: thief tools, sneak attack, 1 skill, expertise in two skills
Dip in knowledge cleric: medium armor and shields, 2 knowledge skills with expertise plus cleric spells.

[Aymon]

Cleric dip is totally worth it, though ac via variant human medium armoured is an option. Cleric allows you to be half elf and get darkvison.

Rogue dip, not worth it.

Hexblade is an option, but you don't synergise the casting as well. Hexblade 2 or 3 for other reasons yes, but hexblade 1 I'd rather pick cleric.

Never underestimate the impact that cleric 1 has in allowing you to focus your bard spell.picks on higher level spells...

[Vaz]

I have an issue with warlocks. I can't wrap my head around just a dip into the class.

Why?
/letters?

[Willie the Duck]

Look, it's not a straightforward decision. Advancement is lumpy. When the rest of the party is 5th level single classes and the martial types are attacking twice and the wizard is laying down 3rd level spells, those two 1-level dips are going to hurt (especially the one that grants medium armor, since you're still not going to be a front-liner, so you won't be open to a lot of attacks).

OTOH, when the group is ambushed and you are protected from being gutted by your 18 AC (let's assume breastplate, 14 Dex, and shield), and can then climb the wall (expertise athletics) despite having a str as dump stat... well you will probably not even notice it, but the non-dipped version of the same character would just be dead.

OP, do what you think makes the most sense. That party looks very much like people know the game and are covering the combat bases. Any successful support character will be a benefit to them, and either of your two ideas (lore bard of lore bard with dips) would be a welcome addition to that party. Sure, getting to the point of being able to lay down a hypnotic pattern by level 5 would help... but so would hanging back and keeping up a Bless for half your career, while simultaneously being able to solve every skill challenge.

[Jakinbandw]

Well, any cleric spell as long as it is level 1.

Nope, the way it is worded you just have to have a spell slot of the appropriate level. Cleric 1/bard 16 let's you prepare lvl 9 cleric spells raw. Like I said, no gm would let you get away with this, so it exists in the same realm as a coffeelock.

[MrStabby]

Nope, the way it is worded you just have to have a spell slot of the appropriate level. Cleric 1/bard 16 let's you prepare lvl 9 cleric spells raw. Like I said, no gm would let you get away with this, so it exists in the same realm as a coffeelock.

You prepare spells as a single classed character. It's in the multicladsing section. I don't have my book with me so can't quote the page number but I am sure someone else can.

[Jakinbandw]

You prepare spells as a single classed character. It's in the multicladsing section. I don't have my book with me so can't quote the page number but I am sure someone else can.

Yes, but it doesn't matter because A cleric knows all their spells. Sure, there never can prepare more than 4+wisdom, but as long as they have a spell slot available they can prepare it.

The rule you are talking about means you can't use cleric prepared spells to prepare a bard spell.

[Vaz]

Yes, but it doesn't matter because A cleric knows all their spells. Sure, there never can prepare more than 4+wisdom, but as long as they have a spell slot available they can prepare it.

The rule you are talking about means you can't use cleric prepared spells to prepare a bard spell.

How many Cleric spells does a Lore Bard 18 know? None. How many Cleric Spells does a Cleric 1 prepare? 1+Wis.

[Jakinbandw]

How many Cleric spells does a Lore Bard 18 know? None. How many Cleric Spells does a Cleric 1 prepare? 1+Wis.

What? Why does it matter what spells the bard side knows? The cleric has access to his entire spell list from the start of the game, and is only limited by spell slots.

Unless you are saying a sorlock can't work because you can't use the warlock spell slots to cast sorcerer spells?

[Vaz]

What? Why does it matter what spells the bard side knows? The cleric has access to his entire spell list from the start of the game, and is only limited by spell slots.

Unless you are saying a sorlock can't work because you can't use the warlock spell slots to cast sorcerer spells?

No. What cleric spells do you know? None. You can only cast what you prepare and you only prepare according to your level as a cleric of your cleric level.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm assuming that the 5e SRDs retain the language of the PHB:
Cleric:

You prepare the list of cleric Spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric Spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The Spells must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots.

For example, if you are a 3rd-level cleric, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level Spell Slots. With a Wisdom of 16, your list of prepared Spells can include six Spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination. If you prepare the 1st-level spell Cure Wounds, you can cast it using a 1st-level or 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn't remove it from your list of prepared Spells.

Multiclassing:


Spells Known and Prepared Edit

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells.
If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.

Spell Slots Edit

You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.
You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells.
If a lower level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have any spells of that higher level.

For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know and potentially enhance their effects.



Jakinbandw appears to be interpreting the last sentence of paragraph one of the cleric section as unmodified and unmodifiable by any other text, since the sentence in isolation would support his position. The example (which I assume are straight from the book) contradict the logic. So unless example paragraphs cannot clarify rules (and who exactly can declare that to be a universal rule?), I'm not sure there's much here.

[Jakinbandw]

I'm assuming that the 5e SRDs retain the language of the PHB:
Cleric:

Multiclassing:


Jakinbandw appears to be interpreting the last sentence of paragraph one of the cleric section as unmodified and unmodifiable by any other text, since the sentence in isolation would support his position. The example (which I assume are straight from the book) contradict the logic. So unless example paragraphs cannot clarify rules (and who exactly can declare that to be a universal rule?), I'm not sure there's much here.

My reading is such:
Clerics can prepare any spell as long as they have spell slots for it.

You only use your cleric level to determine how many cleric spells you can prepare. You use wisdom to cast cleric spells, and you need a holy symbol as a focus. You can't use you bard prepared spells to prepare a cleric spell.

To calculate spell slots, you add your spell casting levels together. In this case cleric 1/bard 16. This gives you one level 9 spell slot. It calls out in this section that normally multiclassing means you don't know spells of your max level, but in the Clerics case they definitely do. The only question is can they prepare them.

The only way you can say this doesn't work is if you have to calculate you individual spell slots for each class when preparing spells. But then the spell slots section wouldn't need to state that you can have a 3rd level spell slot without knowing a 3rd level spell.


Either way, I'm not saying to do this, and so I'll drop this. It doesn't really matter in the long run because despite whatever raw is, rai and Raf say something else.

[Vaz]

You say 'despite RAW saying it' as if you believe RAW states that. I get that you're dropping it, but for the sale of people possibly reading this thread in the future, it's worth stating that RAW, clerics do not know spells. They prepare from the Cleric list, and must be of a level that they can cast, which as a 1st level Cleric is 1+Wis mod. And as per multiclass rules, you prepare as according to the class levels you have: i. E cleric 1.

There is no mention of 'knowing' spells in the cleric entry, only Cantrips.

I have no idea where this wierd concept of clerics knowing spells comes from. Compare that to the Wizard which specifically states you as knowing the spells in the Spellbook.

Believing otherwise, and ruling otherwise is fine, it's your game, but citing it as RAW is just wrong, unless you have another source I've forgotten about stating Clerics knowing spells. Clerics prepare from the cleric list, not from their known spells, like a wizard, but a wizard casts spells prepared, not known.

[Marvnmartian]

Personally I run a Knowledge 1 Bard x Build and it is honestly the easiest class to play, My group doesn't have a wizard so when i saw that i took the knowledge level at 1 to grab expertise in Arcana and history as I was sure they would come up a few times and they have at crucial times in the campaign.

the 1 level dip didn't hurt much as the medium armor + better wiz saves made up for the dip entirely + the fact that we play with UA cantrips and toll the dead is my **** for basic damage to patch up bards deficiency there.

so far my character is level 12 and we have a level 12 full sorc and i can't really tell too much of a difference between us in combat he can use his sorc points to do some more damage in quick bursts but overall with toll the dead and all the out of combat utility my player can provide I would say he is more useful overall

p.s I pick up healing spirit and conjure animals for the most over powered out of combat setup ever... need flying for 8 people i got ya need 10d6 healing to everyone every time we dont have time for a short rest but want to be full health, this effectively allows you to be the healer,Face,and combat support with the ability to handle 2 of the intel skill checks

[bid]

My reading is such:
Clerics can prepare any spell as long as they have spell slots for it.
As long as your cleric 1 has spell slots. Not your character.
Everything in the classes chapter uses class level.

The MC section is pretty clear. Each class is handled separately, as if you were only of that class level. If you are a cleric 1 / bard 17, you are 2 separate things:
- a cleric 1,
- a bard 17.

As a cleric 1, you only have level 1 slots and can only prepare level 1 cleric spells.
As a bard 17, know 20 bard spells, 2 of which may be 9th since you just gained your first 9th slot.


It's the same reason a fighter 11 / bladelock 3 cannot get lifedrinker.

[Klorox]

I'd find it hard to imagine any post xgte bard not 1-dipping hexblade.

A 1 dip in rogue for what? A d6 sneak attack? A 1 dip in cleric for what? Healing word and a couple other spells? Bard gets healing word. For color - for role playing okay sure. But watering down bard makes little sense. You take 2 other levels you're perpetually 2 levels behind. If what you get with these dips is worth it to you, fine. The 1 dip in hex is so amazing it's worth it. The others - hey it's your character. I wouldn't do it, for the most part.

Again, I just don't feel the hexblade, or any other warlock, just for a dip. Maybe my mind can be changed on that.

The rogue dip is for more skills and expertise. I also like knowing thieves cant. I know it's an oft-overlooked ability, but it's freaking cool as hell. I don't plan on attacking unless I have no other option, so sneak attack doesn't mean much.

The cleric dip is for better armor, many more cantrips and spells, and expertise in two more skills. Since it's a full spellcaster level, I'm really not watering down my spellcasting ability as much as in previous editions.

If I don't plan on getting into melee, unless it can't be helped, I don't understand what makes the hexblade so good. I'm definitely willing to hear why though!

[Klorox]

Why?
/letters?

If I'm going to make a pact with another being, whether it be fey, a demon, some unknown entity or even an intelligent weapon now, I don't think a one level dip is appropriate.

If you're making a pact, I think you need to go all-in.

[Willie the Duck]

Again, I just don't feel the hexblade, or any other warlock, just for a dip. Maybe my mind can be changed on that.

The rogue dip is for more skills and expertise. I also like knowing thieves cant. I know it's an oft-overlooked ability, but it's freaking cool as hell. I don't plan on attacking unless I have no other option, so sneak attack doesn't mean much.

The cleric dip is for better armor, many more cantrips and spells, and expertise in two more skills. Since it's a full spellcaster level, I'm really not watering down my spellcasting ability as much as in previous editions.

If I don't plan on getting into melee, unless it can't be helped, I don't understand what makes the hexblade so good. I'm definitely willing to hear why though!

I'm going to make a pact with another being, whether it be fey, a demon, some unknown entity or even an intelligent weapon now, I don't think a one level dip is appropriate.

If you're making a pact, I think you need to go all-in.

It sounds like you have your character kinda mapped out as a bard, which is cool. I have a character banging around in the back on my head for when I am in a situation like yours (being the sixth man in a well diversified party who mainly needs a support character).
Desial Stillwater is the second-born son of a minor noble or merchant family, destined for the priesthood (of Selune). He expected to spend the rest of his life serving the greater good, and taking astronomical measurements of celestial bodies. A week before he was to take his vows, his brother was killed by an owlbear during a hunting expedition. His dad implored him to come back and take over being the eldest surviving child and so on (including having property, a political marriage, and other things a priest couldn't do). Feeling like that would be a betrayal of his faith, Desial prayed with the high priest, who suggested he read the works of ______ (patron saint of some kind). Instead of continuing as a priest of Selune, he became a devoted follower of ____ (patron saint). He wrote a book about the experience, along with the comedic meeting of his wife (something something hilarious and self-deprecating about guy assuming he'd be celibate and oath of poverty ending up with wife and castle or company or whatever). He ended up becoming Mark Twain-like irascible author (performance: writing and oration) and celebrity. Thus, the justification for a Cleric (Knowledge)/Warlock (Celestial)/Bard (Lore).
I think Cleric 1, Warlock 3 (probably Tome, although Chain would also work), Bard the rest would make an interesting support character. Huge number of cantrips, plenty of low level support spells, both long and short rest recharges, huge number of skills (especially if you take the Beguiling Influence invocation), possibly ritual magic support (if you instead take Book of Ancient Secrets). Most of your actions will be support ones, so few attack rolls or opponents saving against you, so the delayed ASIs aren't as significant. It's certainly not the most powerful thing ever, but it could be fun.

[Vaz]

If I'm going to make a pact with another being, whether it be fey, a demon, some unknown entity or even an intelligent weapon now, I don't think a one level dip is appropriate.

If you're making a pact, I think you need to go all-in.

That's fluff. An in character, in setting representation of your abilities. Refluff it as something different.

[krunchyfrogg]

I'd find it hard to imagine any post xgte bard not 1-dipping hexblade.

Why? If it’s not a melee character I can certainly see how keeping the full spellcaster progression outweighs using CHA to hit in melee.

[JAL_1138]

Be careful if you're planning to go Rogue 1. The Death Star may blow up the planet you're on.

[MxKit]

If I'm going to make a pact with another being, whether it be fey, a demon, some unknown entity or even an intelligent weapon now, I don't think a one level dip is appropriate.

If you're making a pact, I think you need to go all-in.

Not trying to convince you, because I actually think your Cleric 1/Bard 19 plan is best and not every class benefits from dipping Warlock, but despite the books using the term "pact," Warlocks do not actually have to make a deal with their Patrons, and if they do the deal does not need to be what most people assume:

"Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlock are not gods."

That makes it seems as appropriate for a low-level dip as Cleric is. (It's even wrong about the "not gods" part, at least in one case; the Undying lists Vecna among your possible patrons!)

"The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it."

This is the most interesting detail in the Warlock section for me, though. This imo implies that any Warlock can be drawing power from their patron without it knowing, and that in some cases even if it knows it just might not care at all. This seems perfectly suited towards 1- or 2-level dips especially, cases where either the character is not getting full benefit because their patron is just kind of going "meh" about them, or the character is making a specific choice not to draw too much power from their unknowing patron because they don't want to be noticed.

[Outlawzero]

Start a Rogue for 4 skills. Half-elf for 3. 1 from multiclass bard. 2 for knowledge domain. 3 for lore bard. Take the skilled feat at level 4 for 3 more skills & the prodigy feat at level 8 for among other things 1 more skill. For all 18 skills & with lore bard & knowledge cleric 8-9 of them double bonus. All skills + almost half or half double bonused still have 18 levels of spell progression with a castor level of 19 by 20 isn't killing your casting at all especially with I think 4 of bards magical secrets thanks to lore bard.

[Klorox]

Start a Rogue for 4 skills. Half-elf for 3. 1 from multiclass bard. 2 for knowledge domain. 3 for lore bard. Take the skilled feat at level 4 for 3 more skills & the prodigy feat at level 8 for among other things 1 more skill. For all 18 skills & with lore bard & knowledge cleric 8-9 of them double bonus. All skills + almost half or half double bonused still have 18 levels of spell progression with a castor level of 19 by 20 isn't killing your casting at all especially with I think 4 of bards magical secrets thanks to lore bard.

Thanks. I still love this idea, but I haven’t done it yet.

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis: Unfortunately, this Bard failed his lore check, and the thread ate him.