Heart of The Swarm - 1000 to 2000 damage with a bonus action ( Tiny Servant )

[Renduaz]

"I am the Swarm. Armies will shatter, Worlds will burn.. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVbeoSPqRs4)"

Holy guacamoli. I've already discussed ( Alongside other people ) how broken the Tiny Servant spell is, since a caster ( And especially an Elf with 4 hours long rest and a Wizard with Simulacrum ) can use it to summon 83 servants, doubled to 166 with a Simulacrum doing the same thing, and wake up with an army that requires no concentration, can be given orders with a single bonus action and will remain viable for the next 4 hours, and can deal 800+ damage with +5 to hit in a round, especially if having the higher initiative before the enemy can even try to AOE them ( And with +3 Dex, it's a high likelihood that enough will make it ).

It gets even more spectacularly broken when combined with more spells. Specifically, Animal Shapes ( Which a Wizard can Wish for, completely worth it, or even reserve his Simulacrum's own slot at the expense of like 20 servants, and have the Simulacrum cast it upon awakening ). Animal Shapes will last as concentration for 24 hours, and will, I quote - " Your magic turns others into beasts. Choose any number of willing creatures that you can see within range. You transform each target into the form of a Large or smaller beast with a challenge rating of 4 or lower.". That range is 30 feet.

According to Page 191 of the Phb, a Tiny creature ( The servan't size ) occupies an area in combat of 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 feet. Not much about a universal height, but if Gnomes for instance stand 3-4 feet tall and their size is Small, then surely a Tiny creature might be also 2 1/2 feet in height as well. So a two tiny creature can occupy a square, and presumably 4 if stack on top of each other for a 5-foot cube ( Although certain objects probably have no trouble doing that, Might as well just put shelves or reverse gravity..etc, the logistics isn't really an issue ) and so if we are standing inside a 5 feet square with a 30 feet view in each direction ( Including below you if hovering ), I'm pretty sure there's enough space to fit at least a 100 tiny servants or so. This entire exercise is one of strict adherence anyway, assuming that if you animated a fork it won't simply be the size of, you know, a fork.

Congratulations, all of our tiny servants are now an Indian style-legion of Elephants ( Or any beast below CR 4, including the flying ones for ease of travel ) as they quickly get ejected everywhere for occupying each other's space with... 76 hp, +8 to hit, 40 feet speed 22 STR and a Gore attack with an average damage of 19 which culminates in... Mystra help us all... for a 100 servants say, 1900 damage or so? And if you chose Giant Eagles ( CR 1, 3 levels below the max you can get anyway ) then it's less damage, but 80 feet of flying speed which means that almost nobody will ever, ever catch even a few of them in an AOE attack if they spread out on their turns. It's actually probably preferable to take flying beasts like the Eagles so things don't get clogged up so much if you are fighting a small number of enemies that the others can't even get in anymore. As for disengaging to move away after an attack, just take the Attack of Opportunity on a single beast out of 100. It wouldn't even matter if performed on all 100 of them. And the target is dead long before that.

But we aren't finished just yet. Although even at this point only a God in his full form would be able to survive the onslaught of even a small percentage of these creatures ( with a 100-fold probability of getting high initiatives ) on the very first round, his next course of action would undoubtedly be to attempt and foil your concentration, assuming he even knows, at all costs. In that case, you may as well just issue the general command to the servants to attack hostile creatures until they're all dead, and bail out with a Contingent Dimension Door followed even by Plane Shift/Teleportation from the battlefield entirely, so that they will continue doing so until the task is completed without you having to issue a bonus action command each time from a range of 120 feet. Yes, your concentration will persist regardless of line of sight or even planar distances, as clarified in Sage Advice by Crawford (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/05/losing-line-of-sight/) and Mearls (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/24/do-i-lose-the-concentration-when-applying-the-blink-effect/). And if somehow by some divine feat he does foil it, all of those beats just revert back to being Tiny Servants.

Anything without total immunity to nonmagical weapon, including those with mere resistance to it, are instantly dead. So sadly less effective against bosses, unless of course you were to be allowed the extremely cheesy route of say, strapping magical daggers to the claws of your giant eagles. A Sage Advice (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/25/can-i-give-weapon-and-armor-the-undead-i-create-with-animate-dead/) clarification about undead suggests that there should theoretically be no reason why you wouldn't be able to outfit a beast's claw with a magical dagger which will in fact physically slash whatever the beast tries to paw with it, only that there would be no proficiency bonus. However, not firm classical RAW to explicitly permit it if a DM throws a hissy fit. But of course, there are still many options of how to use this many CR 4 and below beasts even against bosses, grapples, prones and the like.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is why we can't have nice things.

I realize that finding the weird synergies in the rules is a game within a game, sort of a meta-game, but at some point in my playing of the D&D games (various editions) it lost its attraction. There's a reason Pun-Pun became a cliche with a less than positive connotation.

I liked your thread title since I was, for a few years, addicted to Starcraft. :smallcool:

[Morcleon]

...I love this. Currently AFB, but it seems to work as described.

Food for thought: combine this with my simulacrum chaining for EVEN MORE SERVANTS.

[Ganymede]

I so hope this thread devolves into a series of comments one-upping this dumpster fire with "Ok, but what if we add an additional spellcaster to the mix. That increases the damage output by 100%."

[Morcleon]

I so hope this thread devolves into a series of comments one-upping this dumpster fire with "Ok, but what if we add an additional spellcaster to the mix. That increases the damage output by 100%."

I mean, it does, but induction means we can just note that an additional spellcaster will always add one Swarm worth of damage and move on to more constructive discussion topics. :smallbiggrin:

Also, why the hate for the thread? :smallconfused:

[Renduaz]

I mean, it does, but induction means we can just note that an additional spellcaster will always add one Swarm worth of damage and move on to more constructive discussion topics. :smallbiggrin:

Also, why the hate for the thread? :smallconfused:

Although it should be noted, the best thing about the combination is not just the damage which was already out of control as it is, but rather that all of those creatures can have an upward of 76hp, or 80 feet of flying speed, which makes them even more incredibly broken than before. A vanilla tiny servant proliferation can finish most encounters before they even started, when you turn the servants into CR 4 beasts, they can finish off a small army with their movement/hp allowing them to last several rounds.

[SharkForce]

well, i think you could improve on it by having some of the less powerful flying creatures act as mounts for more damage-oriented non-flying creatures. at least, i don't think the animal shapes spell requires that every creature become the same kind of animal.

i'm not sure there's a particularly good way to enable your animal horde to get around immunity to non-magic weapons though. yeah, you could probably attach magic weapons to some of them, but you probably don't have an arbitrarily large number of magic weapons around to give to all of them.

the only thing i can think of is that *maybe* you could use the spell creation to prepare something that might count as magical weapons. you could probably argue that, say... a cube comprised of dozens of weapons suitable for small animals to use (maybe something shaped to their snout?) that can be snapped apart easily into individual weapons, made out of adamantine or mithral might count as magical, since adamantine and mithral armour are both considered magical. it would be a bit sketchy though, imo.

you might also be able to use creation to make a large amount of acid (there should be some minerals or something like it that you can dissolve into water to create acid that would be known to alchemist's i think), and pour it into flasks for an army of eagle-riding apes to throw.

probably the simplest though would be that army of apes using torches as improvised clubs. they won't get proficiency anyways, so who cares if it's an improvised weapon or not, and it should be easy enough to get supplies of torches. you could also potentially use something like molotov cocktails, though i presume a typical animal wouldn't have enough intelligence to prepare that in advance. conveniently, just before creating your animal army of doom, you will have tons of tiny servants to help you prepare :)

[Saeviomage]

I realize that finding the weird synergies in the rules is a game within a game, sort of a meta-game, but at some point in my playing of the D&D games (various editions) it lost its attraction. There's a reason Pun-Pun became a cliche with a less than positive connotation.

It doesn't even require that though. You can just... cast the spell a bunch throughout the day. There's a reason that every other summon has limits, but apparently the game designers just phoned this one in.

[Zene]

This is great. Consider Volo’s Quetzalcoatlus instead of giant eagles. I’m AFB at the moment, but IIRC they are CR 2, and have a ridiculous flight speed as well. Might be an upgrade.

What arcane tradition would best accomplish this? Illusion to provide cover for your army, or shape the battlefield in their favor? Divination to make the enemy lose initiative? War so you can get out of there fast, in one piece?

Note also that a Bard can do this one level later, but with an actual 8th-level spellslot, saving his Wish for something else... simulacrum shenanigans would be tougher though, maybe.

Also a Druid 15 / Wizard 5 could do this combo at 20... not sure if there’s any advantage to that... I suppose PWT would allow you to sneak your tiny army somewhere before you cast animal shapes, that could be cool. Other better ways to get PWT though.


This is why we can't have nice things

Consider a wizard can’t do this until he has Wish; this is endgame material. Lots of ways to defeat this. But honestly this is exactly the kind of epic awesomeness I’d expect engame wizards to be doing.

[Jakinbandw]

And then a fighter Cavalier look on an laughs with amusement.

"Bring it on!"

[Potato_Priest]

Nice work renduaz. I knew that animal shapes was awesome on gnome peasants already, but this gives you a way to perform something similar without the DM giving you a loyal army.

For pure army-stomping potential, I prefer the CR 3 giant scorpion.

[Foxhound438]

Very cool, and honestly at the cost of all your spell slots I'd probably even allow it. I'd probably throw a dragon or two at this if I wanted to clear it out though, and a dragon initiating from stealth would be pretty hard to work around.

[Vaz]

Nice work renduaz. I knew that animal shapes was awesome on gnome peasants already, but this gives you a way to perform something similar without the DM giving you a loyal army.

For pure army-stomping potential, I prefer the CR 3 giant scorpion.

AFB, but the Q is a Dinosaur, which are beasts are they not? Animal Shapes cannot make elephants though, it requires Large or Smaller and Ele's are huge.

[Potato_Priest]

AFB, but the Q is a Dinosaur, which are beasts are they not? Animal Shapes cannot make elephants though, it requires Large or Smaller and Ele's are huge.

I already edited my post (as you might see in your quote) to remove my error. I read quetzalcoatl and my mind jumped to the coatl in the MM.

Edit: Though now that I read it, Quetzocoatlus are also huge, so I was correct that they can't be used, but for the wrong reason.

[Kane0]

*Unrestrained laughter*

[Vaz]

I already edited my post (as you might see in your quote) to remove my error. I read quetzalcoatl and my mind jumped to the coatl in the MM.

Edit: Though now that I read it, Quetzocoatlus are also huge, so I was correct that they can't be used, but for the wrong reason.

Must have edited it between me loading page and quoting. No drama.

There are some weird interactions, as to how 4 10ft creatures can occupy the same space, and attack at the same time.

You can't end your move in the same space, so their first action on your command is to move away, but then that breaks down in what is considered willing if they're under your control, meaning that they cannot then be part of the animal shapes spell.

[Seafarer]

Elves still take 8 hours to long rest, so there's no additional benefit from using one. Other than that... Wow. Just... wow.

[Unoriginal]

Elves still take 8 hours to long rest, so there's no additional benefit from using one. Other than that... Wow. Just... wow.

If the long rest takes 8h anyway,even for an elf, there is no real"otherwise". You just get lots of Tiny Servants at the cost of all your spell slots.

Which is not a bad use of those spell slots, perhaps, but much like the old "undead army necromancer" build, you're out of spell and very vulnerable to anything that's more subbtle than a straight charge on open field.

You could get less Tiny Servants in order to have your Wish spell ready, or team up with a Druid, true.


But in any case, this can be defeated by a Champion Fighter with a longbow.

[Renduaz]

well, i think you could improve on it by having some of the less powerful flying creatures act as mounts for more damage-oriented non-flying creatures. at least, i don't think the animal shapes spell requires that every creature become the same kind of animal.

i'm not sure there's a particularly good way to enable your animal horde to get around immunity to non-magic weapons though. yeah, you could probably attach magic weapons to some of them, but you probably don't have an arbitrarily large number of magic weapons around to give to all of them.

the only thing i can think of is that *maybe* you could use the spell creation to prepare something that might count as magical weapons. you could probably argue that, say... a cube comprised of dozens of weapons suitable for small animals to use (maybe something shaped to their snout?) that can be snapped apart easily into individual weapons, made out of adamantine or mithral might count as magical, since adamantine and mithral armour are both considered magical. it would be a bit sketchy though, imo.

you might also be able to use creation to make a large amount of acid (there should be some minerals or something like it that you can dissolve into water to create acid that would be known to alchemist's i think), and pour it into flasks for an army of eagle-riding apes to throw.

probably the simplest though would be that army of apes using torches as improvised clubs. they won't get proficiency anyways, so who cares if it's an improvised weapon or not, and it should be easy enough to get supplies of torches. you could also potentially use something like molotov cocktails, though i presume a typical animal wouldn't have enough intelligence to prepare that in advance. conveniently, just before creating your animal army of doom, you will have tons of tiny servants to help you prepare :)

Acid vials and Alchemist's Fire are always an option. One can probably easily get a lifetime supply with True Polymorph, especially given that the Acid Vial and Alchemist's fire are official object examples. Good idea. Regardless, massive pools of acid can probably found in quite a few places by level 20 including black dragon lairs or even the elemental planes if it comes to it.


If the long rest takes 8h anyway,even for an elf, there is no real"otherwise". You just get lots of Tiny Servants at the cost of all your spell slots.

Which is not a bad use of those spell slots, perhaps, but much like the old "undead army necromancer" build, you're out of spell and very vulnerable to anything that's more subbtle than a straight charge on open field.

You could get less Tiny Servants in order to have your Wish spell ready, or team up with a Druid, true.


But in any case, this can be defeated by a Champion Fighter with a longbow.

I was confounded by the claim since I've seen a lot of builds ( like coffeelocks ) using Trance as a 4 hour rest, but apparently this was a common belief enough to warrant it's own WoTC Sage Advice page dedication (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015) back in 2015, in which they said that it is not the intent, although a DM may allow it. So correct, apparently it isn't RAW and the wording of the Trance ability is just confusing.

However, you can still create the animal horde, it just means you have to basically use up your Simulacrum for it. Create a Simulacrum at any point ( Given it lasts indefinitely ), then at the end of the next long rest just have it waste all it's slots on Tiny Servants, except the 9th ( Which only reduces the number by 20 or so ) and use the 9th to Wish for the Animal Shapes. And he'll even maintain the concentration too.

[Vaz]

The animal shapes bit doesn't work as well as you think it does because of how much slace ypu have available. As soon as they increase to their new size and have the ability to move they will move so that they do not willingly end their move there (you can only share a space while moving).

If you instruct them not to, then they cannot be willing participants of the spell in the first place, as they have no will of their own.

It doesn't detract from 100+ Fetishes attacking another creature, but unless there is a tiny beast more powerful than the Tiny Construct, unfortunately, Animal Shapes feels like it's actually worse off for you.

[Lombra]

The animal shapes bit doesn't work as well as you think it does because of how much slace ypu have available. As soon as they increase to their new size and have the ability to move they will move so that they do not willingly end their move there (you can only share a space while moving).

If you instruct them not to, then they cannot be willing participants of the spell in the first place, as they have no will of their own.

It doesn't detract from 100+ Fetishes attacking another creature, but unless there is a tiny beast more powerful than the Tiny Construct, unfortunately, Animal Shapes feels like it's actually worse off for you.

Up to 452 medium-sized creatures (occupying 5 cubic feet each) can fit within an hemisphere of radius 30ft, so all of the tiny servants can be targeted with the spell. They can't become elephants, since they're huge, and the OP should edit the first post, but a swarm of rhinoceros isn't bad.

[Unoriginal]

I was confounded by the claim since I've seen a lot of builds ( like coffeelocks ) using Trance as a 4 hour rest, but apparently this was a common belief enough to warrant it's own WoTC Sage Advice page dedication (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015) back in 2015, in which they said that it is not the intent, although a DM may allow it. So correct, apparently it isn't RAW and the wording of the Trance ability is just confusing.

However, you can still create the animal horde, it just means you have to basically use up your Simulacrum for it. Create a Simulacrum at any point ( Given it lasts indefinitely ), then at the end of the next long rest just have it waste all it's slots on Tiny Servants, except the 9th ( Which only reduces the number by 20 or so ) and use the 9th to Wish for the Animal Shapes. And he'll even maintain the concentration too.

Well, sure, I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's inefficient.

The Simulacrum having the spell slot for Wish means you spent 1500 gp on it, and that it is only able to have 63 Tiny Servants, minus the ones that would have been animated by the spell slot the Sim doesn't have because you used it for it's creation. So you're spending 1500 gp for a bit more than 50 Tiny Servants, for 8h (minus the time spent casting the spell), that you can then turn into 50 beasts.

For 1500 gp, you can hire 750 archer mercenaries for one day. Less so if you have to pay for their equipment, but good mercenaries bring their own. And you can still get a high number even if you do pay their ammunitions and the like.

And that's more than enough archers to kill the 50-or-so beasts in the time it takes them to close the gap between max bow range and melee range.

And even without that, your Simulacrum, that you have to bring within 120ft of each of your beasts for them to get the "attack" order (which could take 1 or 2 turns, depending on how they're positioned), is incredibly vulnerable. It can probably be OTK by most high-level adventurers who have ranged option.


All in all, if you want to destroy an army, Meteor Swarm cost less in gold and ressources, and if you don't want to destroy an army there are plenty of better uses for your spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

There's a reason that every other summon has limits, but apparently the game designers just phoned this one in. Yeah. With each expansion pack/supplement, the chances for power creep, or loopholes, increases. Been true for 40+ years.

Consider a wizard can’t do this until he has Wish; this is endgame material. Lots of ways to defeat this. But honestly this is exactly the kind of epic awesomeness I’d expect engame wizards to be doing. Fair point. :smallcool:

[rbstr]

I'm not even so sure this is worth the opportunity cost of all your spell slots.

A big part is that you need prep time and there's a strict time limit. So you have to know you need the mob and you better get it over with w/in 8hrs.
So a good nearly-instant army to protect your fort or assault the dragon lair but it's not really even that big of an army IMO.
Plus you still need to be close enough that you can see in order to have your army react, otherwise they're just blindly following an order that may have even ceased to be relevant.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah. With each expansion pack/supplement, the chances for power creep, or loopholes, increases. Been true for 40+ years.

Yeah, the end-game power of creating an a-bit-less-than-8h-hour-lasting army of ~50 melee-only combatants using all the spell slots of a Simulacrum (including Wish), with your now spell-less, half-your-HPs Simulacrum having to act as the leader by being at 120ft of any combatants it wants to order (when the whole band crumble if the Simulacrum dies), for a cost of 1500 gp, is clearly too OP.




So a good nearly-instant army to protect your fort or assault the dragon lair but it's not really even that big of an army IMO.

It takes something like 20 mins to set up, not counting transportation.

It can save your bacon if you have to defend or attack something in a relatively short notice and that having a lot of bodies to handle work better than the alternative, but I don't really see the use otherwise, or how such a situation would come to be.

[Temperjoke]

Anti-Magic Field to protect yourself, then cast Earthquake a couple of times to clean up the army.

[Zene]

Trance was recently changed to, in fact, allow a long rest in 4 hours ... yes, in conflict with prior sage advice rulings. See the latest sage advice compendium for the current wording, and then I know there have been several tweets to JC asking him to confirm the change, and he’s responded (affirmatively) to at least one.

If anyone needs specific links, I believe Easy Lee’s cofeelock thread has them. Or if not, someone in that thread can certainly provide them.

But yeah 4-hour elf rest is now officially a thing.

[Renduaz]

Well, sure, I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's inefficient.

The Simulacrum having the spell slot for Wish means you spent 1500 gp on it, and that it is only able to have 63 Tiny Servants, minus the ones that would have been animated by the spell slot the Sim doesn't have because you used it for it's creation. So you're spending 1500 gp for a bit more than 50 Tiny Servants, for 8h (minus the time spent casting the spell), that you can then turn into 50 beasts.

For 1500 gp, you can hire 750 archer mercenaries for one day. Less so if you have to pay for their equipment, but good mercenaries bring their own. And you can still get a high number even if you do pay their ammunitions and the like.

And that's more than enough archers to kill the 50-or-so beasts in the time it takes them to close the gap between max bow range and melee range.

And even without that, your Simulacrum, that you have to bring within 120ft of each of your beasts for them to get the "attack" order (which could take 1 or 2 turns, depending on how they're positioned), is incredibly vulnerable. It can probably be OTK by most high-level adventurers who have ranged option.


All in all, if you want to destroy an army, Meteor Swarm cost less in gold and ressources, and if you don't want to destroy an army there are plenty of better uses for your spells.

Apparently I was right to begin with anyway and Crawford did change (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/09/01/i-dont-understand-the-change-to-elf-trance-why-do-they-suddenly-no-longer-need-to-finish-the-8-hours/) the rule for an Elf trance. Regardless, the "Just hire a quantrillion mercenaries, no need for summons or builds or anything!" argument is bunk. What exactly guarantees the presence of 750 available archer mercenaries to agree to go to wherever it is you want ( The Nine Hells? The Underdark? ) to go to start with, let alone for a set amount of gold, in any campaign? None. Hiring mercenaries, being dependent on DM world-building, is something that the DM can just "NO." you with if he doesn't want you to have them. Summons, like the old undead archers trick instead of mercenary archers, have always been brought up and universally more reliable for a reason.

No, my Simulacrum doesn't even have to be within that range, Unoriginal. I explained that in the OP, you really ought to read my OP's sometimes. You need 120ft and a bonus action if you want to command them with precision each turn. You don't need 120ft or continued bonus action if you issue a general command, which will be performed until the task is complete.


I'm not even so sure this is worth the opportunity cost of all your spell slots.

A big part is that you need prep time and there's a strict time limit. So you have to know you need the mob and you better get it over with w/in 8hrs.
So a good nearly-instant army to protect your fort or assault the dragon lair but it's not really even that big of an army IMO.
Plus you still need to be close enough that you can see in order to have your army react, otherwise they're just blindly following an order that may have even ceased to be relevant.

Tiny Servant is 1 minute to cast, so using up every slot takes 22 minutes. And Wished Animal Shapes is of course a single action. So getting it within 8 hours isn't a problem once you awaken from a long rest with a simulacrum by your side. But yes, this needs to be done at the start of the adventuring day, not mid-combat. But virtually every campaign has enough time for that. As for the order, it will be performed until the task is complete. "Attack the enemies until they're dead" seems rather straightforward, and when it ceases to be relevant, the animal horde will revert back to it's default of defending itself, so they'll just be waiting on the battlefield for you to return.

And if the enemies fled for example, doesn't matter much either, the animals also revert to default.

[Potato_Priest]

Anti-Magic Field to protect yourself, then cast Earthquake a couple of times to clean up the army.

I mean, there's ways to defeat everything (the op even alluded to a few), but that doesn't make this usage of spells underpowered by any means.

Also, note that you can't cast earthquake if you're in an anti-magic field, and both earthquake and anti-magic field require 8th level slots, so you can't do an antimagic field and then a couple earthquakes without multiple casters.

[Temperjoke]

I mean, there's ways to defeat everything (the op even alluded to a few), but that doesn't make this usage of spells underpowered by any means.

Also, note that you can't cast earthquake if you're in an anti-magic field, and both earthquake and anti-magic field require 8th level slots, so you can't do an antimagic field and then a couple earthquakes without multiple casters.

I never said anything about the tiny servant swarm being overpowered or underpowered, just pointed out a process that can defeat it. Whether it takes more than one caster or not. Assuming you can funnel the army into one chokepoint, the anti-magic caster blocks the way, while your other caster starts obliterating the army via whatever means at his/her disposal.

Hell, if it's a villain who's been observing what you're doing, if they've got a way to set up an anti-magic zone in your path, that's enough to interfere with what you're doing, because it creates a hole in your battle line.

[Renduaz]

Anti-Magic Field to protect yourself, then cast Earthquake a couple of times to clean up the army.


I mean, there's ways to defeat everything (the op even alluded to a few), but that doesn't make this usage of spells underpowered by any means.

Also, note that you can't cast earthquake if you're in an anti-magic field, and both earthquake and anti-magic field require 8th level slots, so you can't do an antimagic field and then a couple earthquakes without multiple casters.

Yes, a Mage who casts Antimagic Field has robbed himself of his own magic as well, except for artifacts. He now probably can't fly by any magical means ( Not just spells, but any kind of magic that suffuses the multiverse ) save for a select class/race ability or two. When he approaches an animal, it drops animal shapes temporarily, then drops it's own tiny servant animation and goes back into being an inanimate object. Presumably, if destroying the object would destroy the tiny servant and animal shapes spells too, then he's left with melee attacks against creatures he gets within 10 feet range of. Otherwise, he can only use regular ranged attacks from within his sphere which might not be very efficient.

A perfect way to annoy melee attackers with antimagic though is probably to create your servants initially out of adamantine shards ( P.S Adamantine itself though having been formed by magic much like the world itself in some campaigns, or a wall of stone made permanent, is not a "Magical item" just due to the metal, unless enchanted. See this answer (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/92657/are-weapons-and-armor-made-of-mithral-or-adamantine-considered-magical) as to why ).

[Temperjoke]

Yes, a Mage who casts Antimagic Field has robbed himself of his own magic as well, except for artifacts. He now probably can't fly by any magical means ( Not just spells, but any kind of magic that suffuses the multiverse ) save for a select class/race ability or two. When he approaches an animal, it drops animal shapes temporarily, then drops it's own tiny servant animation and goes back into being an inanimate object. Presumably, if destroying the object would destroy the tiny servant and animal shapes spells too, then he's left with melee attacks against creatures he gets within 10 feet range of. Otherwise, he can only use regular ranged attacks from within his sphere which might not be very efficient.

A perfect way to annoy melee attackers with antimagic though is probably to create your servants initially out of adamantine shards ( P.S Adamantine itself though having been formed by magic much like the world itself in some campaigns, or a wall of stone made permanent, is not a "Magical item" just due to the metal, unless enchanted. See this answer (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/92657/are-weapons-and-armor-made-of-mithral-or-adamantine-considered-magical) as to why ).

Yeah I posted a follow up where a second caster helps destroy efficiently, assuming terrain is altered or already forces a choke point that can be blocked with the anti-magic spell. Heck, having melee backup within the field probably helps with the cleanup as well. At the very least, the anti-magic field caster can wade through the army to find the simulacrum that is commanding the group, assuming the original caster didn't go. If the simulacrum was the one that cast the animal shapes spell on the group, or half the group, then breaking it's concentration breaks that spell, reducing the threat severely.

Either way, it's a cheesy combination of spells, but it's not overpowered or underpowered, since it's a high level spell combination that can be beat with another high level spell combination.

[Renduaz]

Yeah I posted a follow up where a second caster helps destroy efficiently, assuming terrain is altered or already forces a choke point that can be blocked with the anti-magic spell. Heck, having melee backup within the field probably helps with the cleanup as well. At the very least, the anti-magic field caster can wade through the army to find the simulacrum that is commanding the group, assuming the original caster didn't go. If the simulacrum was the one that cast the animal shapes spell on the group, or half the group, then breaking it's concentration breaks that spell, reducing the threat severely.

Either way, it's a cheesy combination of spells, but it's not overpowered or underpowered, since it's a high level spell combination that can be beat with another high level spell combination.

Sure, there are a lots of option for classed characters ( Monsters are a different story ) to counter everything, even though what you proposed can be countered just as well by the caster. By the way a Simulacrum can also leave the battlefield and issue a general command. Or the original caster can stay and see you doing this, then simply instruct his eagles or animals to keep at bay. However, notice how you already added another character to the mix while facing a singular Wizard - which indicates that you are, in fact, contending against a lot of power if you need to make a fight of 2vs1. I could counter with the same thing - What if the Wizard also has a martial backup? What if he notices you using antimagic field and just plane shifts your melee friend or the like while you're powerless to do anything without your magic, then just hovers above you with his eagles and lets his own melee companion completely destroy you, since you can't cast any magic? What if it's giant eagles dropping acid vials on you from above? what if they're all Apes throwing rocks at you with a range of 25/50 feet, all 100+ of them? Without any magical protection, you're probably going down in so much as a round.

These kind of scenarios can go on forever. Lets' put it this way - This is the highest damage possible for a single caster to do with his resources that I can think of in a round, especially without having to forfeit his own action.

[Unoriginal]

Apparently I was right to begin with anyway and Crawford did change (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/09/01/i-dont-understand-the-change-to-elf-trance-why-do-they-suddenly-no-longer-need-to-finish-the-8-hours/) the rule for an Elf trance.

Yes, I admit I was unaware of that.



Regardless, the "Just hire a quantrillion mercenaries, no need for summons or builds or anything!" argument is bunk. What exactly guarantees the presence of 750 available archer mercenaries to agree to go to wherever it is you want ( The Nine Hells? The Underdark? ) to go to start with, let alone for a set amount of gold, in any campaign? None. Hiring mercenaries, being dependent on DM world-building, is something that the DM can just "NO." you with if he doesn't want you to have them. Summons, like the old undead archers trick instead of mercenary archers, have always been brought up and universally more reliable for a reason.

2 gp a day is what the books list as the price to hire a soldier for a day. Sure, the DM can say "no", but they can do so to everything if they are so inclined.



No, my Simulacrum doesn't even have to be within that range, Unoriginal. I explained that in the OP, you really ought to read my OP's sometimes. You need 120ft and a bonus action if you want to command them with precision each turn. You don't need 120ft or continued bonus action if you issue a general command, which will be performed until the task is complete.



Tiny Servant is 1 minute to cast, so using up every slot takes 22 minutes. And Wished Animal Shapes is of course a single action. So getting it within 8 hours isn't a problem once you awaken from a long rest with a simulacrum by your side. But yes, this needs to be done at the start of the adventuring day, not mid-combat. But virtually every campaign has enough time for that. As for the order, it will be performed until the task is complete. "Attack the enemies until they're dead" seems rather straightforward, and when it ceases to be relevant, the animal horde will revert back to it's default of defending itself, so they'll just be waiting on the battlefield for you to return.

And if the enemies fled for example, doesn't matter much either, the animals also revert to default.

I've read your OP. I'm just saying that you do need your Simulacrum to be present to order the beasts to attack, so the Simulacrum needs to be here for the first round of the combat (and generally to lead the band toward the battlefield, too).

Unless you have it say something like "attack people who look like X" as an order, but that seems like a recipe for disaster.

[Renduaz]

Edit: Nevermind, apparently not possible.

[Renduaz]

Yes, I admit I was unaware of that.



2 gp a day is what the books list as the price to hire a soldier for a day. Sure, the DM can say "no", but they can do so to everything if they are so inclined.



I've read your OP. I'm just saying that you do need your Simulacrum to be present to order the beasts to attack, so the Simulacrum needs to be here for the first round of the combat (and generally to lead the band toward the battlefield, too).

Unless you have it say something like "attack people who look like X" as an order, but that seems like a recipe for disaster.

2gp is what the books list as an example, in case the DM makes such hirelings available for you in the first place. Way to completely ignore everything I said about 750 mercenary archers not necessarily being available for you in all campaign worlds, at all times, and willing to risk their lives in whichever insane adventure you go on for a standard fee, or any for that matter ( "No mister, we're not joining your final battle in the Demonweb Pits plane, we have enough normal wars to get hired for" ). All of this is far, far from a DM declining to let you cast official spells which are part of your class.

As always unoriginal, there's no need to just say things for no reason.

It can be the Simulacrum, it can be you, with general commands. And if leaving, then depends on what you fight. If it's an Illithid city, a dragon lair, or demons in the Abyss, I don't really see much of a targeting problem. If it's the evil lair of some guy, then just kill everything in sight which isn't one of the party members. I guess if you're fighting in a city, then more caution could be advised if you have people you want to preserve and assuming enemies don't wear different colored uniforms which make them easy marks. But if not, then even human soldiers would get confused. And those aren't really very frequent scenarios as to give it much thought.

[Potato_Priest]

63 servants, prior to a long rest, Wished Simulacrum increasing number to 126, both spending 1 sorcery point for extended spell ( making the servants last 16 hours ). Simulacrum can't regain slots, but after 4 hours Sorczard wakes up again. Does the same routine - Wished Simulacrum and all slots spent on servants. It's now up to 252 servants. Another 4 hours rest ( Now 8 hours left for servants ), same routine. 378 servants. At this point he can take the final rest and conserve all slots for the 4 hours he got the servants for ( Even the 9th, if reducing servants by 20 for animal shapes ), or just to test out the limit -Spend all of his remaining slots for the day on the final rest too ( except the 9th ), bringing up the number to 484 servants, then imbued with Animal Shapes.


You can't take a long rest more than once in a 24 hour period. (PHB pg. 186)

[Renduaz]

You can't take a long rest more than once in a 24 hour period. (PHB pg. 186)

Oh, that's true, my mistake.

[SharkForce]

you can increase the number of animals that will fit into the initial area by using some of them as mounts, thus allowing them to save space :)

(you could also, provided you set up some sort of area for it, use the squeezing rules to cram more creatures into the same area).

and yeah, mercenaries have all kinds of other concerns. for example, assuming there are 750 unemployed archer mercenaries hanging around waiting for work (which seems unlikely), they probably aren't already at the place you want them to be. so you're going to need to hire them well in advance, and pay them for every day of travel. if you have a disastrous campaign where half of them die, they aren't going to be readily available tomorrow. and, as noted, it is entirely possible that when you tell them you want to send them in a human wave attack, they have a change of heart about working for you. additionally, they will lack the mobility available to the animal horde; they won't have climb, swim, burrow, or fly speeds, for example. so for example, if the place you need them is a relatively convenient 5 days journey away, and we'll presume that you can fit the battle into the last day of travel, you're going to need to pay that army 10 days of wages, which will rather significantly reduce the size of the army you can hire.

(it also presumes that *all* mercenaries are 2 gp per day, and that officers don't get more money, or that mercenary soldiers that have longbows and warhorses or that use the knight stat block cost the same amount to hire as mercenaries that are equivalent to normal bandits, which is unlikely at best).

[Renduaz]

you can increase the number of animals that will fit into the initial area by using some of them as mounts, thus allowing them to save space :)

(you could also, provided you set up some sort of area for it, use the squeezing rules to cram more creatures into the same area).

and yeah, mercenaries have all kinds of other concerns. for example, assuming there are 750 unemployed archer mercenaries hanging around waiting for work (which seems unlikely), they probably aren't already at the place you want them to be. so you're going to need to hire them well in advance, and pay them for every day of travel. if you have a disastrous campaign where half of them die, they aren't going to be readily available tomorrow. and, as noted, it is entirely possible that when you tell them you want to send them in a human wave attack, they have a change of heart about working for you. additionally, they will lack the mobility available to the animal horde; they won't have climb, swim, burrow, or fly speeds, for example. so for example, if the place you need them is a relatively convenient 5 days journey away, and we'll presume that you can fit the battle into the last day of travel, you're going to need to pay that army 10 days of wages, which will rather significantly reduce the size of the army you can hire.

(it also presumes that *all* mercenaries are 2 gp per day, and that officers don't get more money, or that mercenary soldiers that have longbows and warhorses or that use the knight stat block cost the same amount to hire as mercenaries that are equivalent to normal bandits, which is unlikely at best).

We aren't using animals initially though, rather, animated objects through tiny servant. But yes as I said, there is no problem in putting them on top of each other, but it's not even necessary. This is what a radial area of 30 feet (http://www.superdan.net/gaming/dnd3/spellar/images/rad30_ms.gif) looks like, and 2 tiny objects can fit inside a square. There's already enough space there to fix the maximum number of tiny servants we can possible make, and it's flat. Without even accounting for lower and upper vertical space.

[SharkForce]

We aren't using animals initially though, rather, animated objects through tiny servant. But yes as I said, there is no problem in putting them on top of each other, but it's not even necessary. This is what a radial area of 30 feet (http://www.superdan.net/gaming/dnd3/spellar/images/rad30_ms.gif) looks like, and 2 tiny objects can fit inside a square. There's already enough space there to fix the maximum number of tiny servants we can possible make, and it's flat. Without even accounting for lower and upper vertical space.

i meant for the animals you're creating. a large animal takes up a lot more room, and there are those raised objections that you need enough space for all the animals you're creating. if half of them are riding the other half, that gives you a lot more space without requiring some sort of sketchy spherical structure to be in place beforehand :P

(also, if a tiny creature is assumed to have space of 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft that would be 4 per square, not 2, but that's beside the point)

[Dudewithknives]

Can't get the "Be Our Guest" scene out of my head.

If I was an elf high level wizard I would do that just for the fun of it.

[Zene]

We aren't using animals initially though, rather, animated objects through tiny servant. But yes as I said, there is no problem in putting them on top of each other, but it's not even necessary. This is what a radial area of 30 feet (http://www.superdan.net/gaming/dnd3/spellar/images/rad30_ms.gif) looks like, and 2 tiny objects can fit inside a square. There's already enough space there to fix the maximum number of tiny servants we can possible make, and it's flat. Without even accounting for lower and upper vertical space.


i meant for the animals you're creating. a large animal takes up a lot more room, and there are those raised objections that you need enough space for all the animals you're creating. if half of them are riding the other half, that gives you a lot more space without requiring some sort of sketchy spherical structure to be in place beforehand :P

(also, if a tiny creature is assumed to have space of 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft that would be 4 per square, not 2, but that's beside the point)

Yes I actually meant to include this in my first comment but got distracted by other points; per the PHB, 4 tiny creatures can stand in a 5’ square without squeezing. Squeezing allows a creature to fit in a space one size category smaller; there is no size smaller than Tiny, so RAW they cannot squeeze, but if you extrapolate that if there were a size smaller than Tiny, 16 could fit in a 5’ square.

And that’s just flat on the ground. Suffice it to say you could fit a huge number in the range of Animal Shapes, just as you would expect based on tiny objects (think coins or knives).

[Renduaz]

i meant for the animals you're creating. a large animal takes up a lot more room, and there are those raised objections that you need enough space for all the animals you're creating. if half of them are riding the other half, that gives you a lot more space without requiring some sort of sketchy spherical structure to be in place beforehand :P

(also, if a tiny creature is assumed to have space of 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft that would be 4 per square, not 2, but that's beside the point)

By RAW, they must transform when all of the requirements are met. All the tiny objects in place, and within 30 feet of sight. There is no wording about unoccupied space or anything in either spells, the transformation will take place and the only question is what happens to the animals once they occupy each other's space. The usual rule in such instances is that they get ejected into the nearest unoccupied space. At worst a DM might rule that they also take some damage in the process, if he's been consistent about that in other situations, so I guess there's indeed value to space maximization.

Although with a radial area of 30 feet centered on a square, I've counted 102 5 feet squares in width and length alone, not accounting for height ( both lower and upper ), so I don't think there should be a problem to begin with. You can easily have enough gaps for 100 large creatures at least as it is even without mounting.

[SharkForce]

By RAW, they must transform when all of the requirements are met. All the tiny objects in place, and within 30 feet of sight. There is no wording about unoccupied space or anything in either spells, the transformation will take place and the only question is what happens to the animals once they occupy each other's space. The usual rule in such instances is that they get ejected into the nearest unoccupied space. At worst a DM might rule that they also take some damage in the process, if he's been consistent about that in other situations, so I guess there's indeed value to space maximization.

Although with a radial area of 30 feet centered on a square, I've counted 102 5 feet squares in width and length alone, not accounting for height ( both lower and upper ), so I don't think there should be a problem to begin with. You can easily have enough gaps for 100 large creatures at least as it is even without mounting.

most large creatures have a space of 10x10, so you need 4 squares each. granted the ones on the edges can just occupy some squares beyond that area as they expand, but the rest are going to have problems :smallsmile:

(the rules for squeezing and mounts could help a bit here :smalltongue: )

[Samayu]

re: space for attackers... flyby attacks?

[Vaz]

Squeezing doesn't allowyou to bypass the rules for sharing space with another creature. Mounts are weird as your abilities are replaced by those of the beast, so even if you use a form of logical animal mount (Remora+shark, Monkey+Warthog), how able they are to attack is questionable. You could always make some creatures flying instead, and stack them.

But at that stage, we're not getting the animal bomb referenced.

Also, re too many in the same space, They do not get ejected, but they must willingly move, and if you declare that as they follow your orders to stay overlapping, then thsy logically cannot be willing targets for the purposes of Animal Shapes.

There's nothing to stop you using subsequent actions to cycle the animals in there but the Rhino bomb cannot work.

[tsotate]

i'm not sure there's a particularly good way to enable your animal horde to get around immunity to non-magic weapons though. yeah, you could probably attach magic weapons to some of them, but you probably don't have an arbitrarily large number of magic weapons around to give to all of them.
Crusader's Mantle? It's on-hit, not on-damage, so that's 100d4 radiant damage times the number of attacks of whatever beast you chose.


I'm just saying that you do need your Simulacrum to be present to order the beasts to attack, so the Simulacrum needs to be here for the first round of the combat (and generally to lead the band toward the battlefield, too).

Unless you have it say something like "attack people who look like X" as an order, but that seems like a recipe for disaster.

Presumably, the order the Simulacrum gave was "obey the orders of this wizard as if he were me".

[SharkForce]

Crusader's Mantle? It's on-hit, not on-damage, so that's 100d4 radiant damage times the number of attacks of whatever beast you chose.

well, it is also not native to the wizard's spell list, and is concentration, meaning it's not self-contained, but the real killer is that it covers an area that would make it hard to effectively use to its full potential. all of the attacks would need to be made from within 30 feet of the caster.

well, that and the fact that it isn't clear if they mean weapon attack in the same way they mean melee weapon attack in monster statblocks, or if they mean it as an attack with a melee weapon in the spell description.

[Zene]

Also, re too many in the same space, They do not get ejected, but they must willingly move,

Source for this? That’s a pretty major ruling, I’m curious whether it’s RAW or interpretation.

[Vaz]

Afb so cannot confirm page number. Movement rules, phb.

[Zene]

Afb so cannot confirm page number. Movement rules, phb.

I don’t see anything like that in there. The closest is ‘You can’t willingly end your movement in another creature’s space’, p191. But this scenario is not that.

Let me know if you find a relevant quote I missed.

[Vaz]

I don’t see anything like that in there. The closest is ‘You can’t willingly end your movement in another creature’s space’, p191. But this scenario is not that.

Let me know if you find a relevant quote I missed.

That's the one. What don't you understand?

[Zene]

That's the one. What don't you understand?

The scenario described was: A large number of tiny creatures crowd into the range of animal shapes. They fit just fine, because they’re tiny. Animal shapes is cast; now they’re larger.

You said it wouldn’t work per the phb, since they’re now in each other’s space, and thus wouldn’t be valid targets for animal shapes. They wouldn’t get ejected, spell would just fail.

But the Phb only says they can’t end their turn in another creature’s space. Which they are not doing, since Animal Shapes is not being cast on their turn. They crowd around, end their turn in legal positions as Tiny creatures. After their turns end, Animal Shapes is cast, they grow, and are squeezed/squeezing. When their turn comes, they have to move out. No conflict. Spell and combo works per RAW.

[Vaz]

The scenario described was: A large number of tiny creatures crowd into the range of animal shapes. They fit just fine, because they’re tiny. Animal shapes is cast; now they’re larger.

You said it wouldn’t work per the phb, since they’re now in each other’s space, and thus wouldn’t be valid targets for animal shapes. They wouldn’t get ejected, spell would just fail.

But the Phb only says they can’t end their turn in another creature’s space. Which they are not doing, since Animal Shapes is not being cast on their turn. They crowd around, end their turn in legal positions as Tiny creatures. After their turns end, Animal Shapes is cast, they grow, and are squeezed/squeezing. When their turn comes, they have to move out. No conflict. Spell and combo works per RAW.

No. That's not what I said at all? Or if i did (on phone so hard to check), my bad, let me clarify, given that you need the help to explain.

As soon as they become animal shapes and get ordered to act, the first thing tbey have to do is move out of each others space, because they cannot willingly end movement in another's space. If you're able to order them to attack the creature before their movement away, then they're never 'willing' and cannot be valid targets for Animal Shapes.

[Zene]

No. That's not what I said at all? Or if i did (on phone so hard to check), my bad, let me clarify, given that you need the help to explain.

As soon as they become animal shapes and get ordered to act, the first thing tbey have to do is move out of each others space, because they cannot willingly end movement in another's space. If you're able to order them to attack the creature before their movement away, then they're never 'willing' and cannot be valid targets for Animal Shapes.

Yeah sorry I still don’t get it. How does something that happens *after* the spell takes effect, *retroactively* make them invalid targets? And, what in that phb quote says anything about spell targets, retroactive validity of targets, how ordering them to attack has anything to do with where they end their turn...?

Other thread readers, is this making sense to you? if I’m the only one not getting this, I can drop it; I don’t want to clog up the thread.

[ThePolarBear]

Yeah sorry I still don’t get it. How does something that happens *after* the spell takes effect, *retroactively* make them invalid targets? And, what in that phb quote says anything about spell targets, retroactive validity of targets, how ordering them to attack has anything to do with where they end their turn...?

Other thread readers, is this making sense to you? if I’m the only one not getting this, I can drop it; I don’t want to clog up the thread.

What i understand Vaz is saying is that, if a creature cannot object/cannot disobey a command that cannot be taken at the moment because rules, then you can't really consider the creature "willing" in the first place, thus the caster could not cast the spell in the first place.

The creature doesn't change "willingness", it never was "willing" and what he wrote was just a rule-based demonstration.

[Potato_Priest]

What i understand Vaz is saying is that, if a creature cannot object/cannot disobey a command that cannot be taken at the moment because rules, then you can't really consider the creature "willing" in the first place, thus the caster could not cast the spell in the first place.

The creature doesn't change "willingness", it never was "willing" and what he wrote was just a rule-based demonstration.

That is a very good summary.

Personally, I disagree. Like reading "hostile" creatures as creatures that are hostile to anyone, misreading "willing" as creatures with free will would likely have many unforeseen rules consequences. For instance, many buffs couldn't be cast on your minions, and all sorts of stupid stuff.

I would think that "willing" doesn't apply to some cosmic state of free will, but to whether the creature will resist having said spell put on them or not, and they can be ordered to not resist.

[Basement Cat]

What does AFB stand for? :smallconfused:

[Temperjoke]

What does AFB stand for? :smallconfused:

"Away From Book"

[KorvinStarmast]

What does AFB stand for? :smallconfused: Away From Books.

[Basement Cat]

Away From Books.

Thanks...

...um...

And because I'm half asleep could you explain its usage in this thread? I'm lost as to the context.

....sleepy...

[SharkForce]

Thanks...

...um...

And because I'm half asleep could you explain its usage in this thread? I'm lost as to the context.

....sleepy...

someone said they were afb so they couldn't confirm page number. hard to check the page number when you don't have your books, so... story checks out ;)

[Zene]

What arcane tradition would best accomplish this? Illusion to provide cover for your army, or shape the battlefield in their favor? Divination to make the enemy lose initiative? War so you can get out of there fast, in one piece?

Sorry to thread necro, but I've been noodling on this point, and had some additional thoughts I wanted to share.

For a while, I was leaning toward Abjuration as the optimal school for this. The biggest threat to your creature army is going to be AOEs, and Abjuration has both Extended Ward and improved Counterspell.

But then I realized, extended ward is pretty much useless against AOEs. A 20th-level Abjurist can only soak 45 points of damage before it's gone. A fireball will eat that in less than 3 targets. And improved counterspell, while nice, means you have to be in counterspell range. But ideally, you're nowhere near the front line in these shenanigans; and even if you are, lots of spells/tactics, especially at high levels, are effectively un-counterspellable (invisible caster; meteor swarm from a mile away; storm of vengeance from 20 miles away; etc).

So the next best option, I'm thinking, is to make your army untargetable. Get them into striking distance without anyone knowing they're there. Looking back at Illusionist, then... Mirage Arcane, with Malleable Illusions, can make the ground 1 foot higher, or the walls of the dungeon 1 foot narrower, with paths underneath. This could allow your tiny army to travel with you, under the ground or in the walls, unseen.

This does of course mean the Animal Shapes trick will have to be done as late as possible, as hiding hundreds of M or L creatures is going to be a lot harder than hiding hundreds of Tiny ones. The other drawback here is stealth. I'd imagine hundreds of tiny constructs running through the walls aren't going to be very quiet. This could conceivably be addressed by our Illusionist going Wiz 17 / Druid 3 so he can cast Pass Without Trace; it's thematically inline with having an Animal Shaped army, and has the added bonus of allowing him to Wild Shape into something that --depending on the animal shapes you choose for your army-- might be indistinguishable from his minions. Alternately, just picking up 1 druid level and a Staff of the Woodlands would enable PWT (and save spell slots). Another route could be to planar bind a unicorn, barghest, or empyrean for their at-will PWT abilities.

[strangebloke]

Totally using this for my upcoming evil artificer. Mech-swarm goooo!

Not worried about breaking the game, since we're supposed to be the baddies of the follow-on campaign, and the goal is to make everyone as scary as possible.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorry to thread necro, but I've been noodling on this point, and had some additional thoughts I wanted to share. Hide them in a fog cloud? The radius expands by 20' for each level over 1st one expends.
Just an idea.

[Davrix]

I'm so stealing this idea but what would be the best animal shapes to pick up to use ?

[Citan]

Totally using this for my upcoming evil artificer. Mech-swarm goooo!

Not worried about breaking the game, since we're supposed to be the baddies of the follow-on campaign, and the goal is to make everyone as scary as possible.
Don't worry, you won't break the game in any ways.

OP's build is a one-trick pony that, if used repeatedly will work well one time, maybe a handful, but not more...

Overall, we are still talking about melee attackers here...

So, besides the fact that for it to be remotely efficient you need the right battlefield in the first place (open space, large space, high ceiling or open sky) it's just unleashing a horde.

This idea is actually more dangerous on a 11-13th level NPC Wizard than on a 20th level NPC. Because at that level, available counters represent a much bigger chunk of an PC party's resources proportionally, at least if they want to quickly make the danger disappear (saying that because I'd expect a, for example 4-man party, to face such a Wizard when they are at most 6-7th level. Otherwise action economy and available firepower makes it too easy to fight).

At 20th level? Even barring magical items, even making it a caster's duel, any caster of similar level will laugh at the "threat".
A Druid would have numerous ways to simply escape the horde, or he could cast Storm of Vengeance and wait it out while hidden, or just flee with spell or Wild Shape...
A Wizard / Sorcerer / Bard could just cast a Meteor Swarm and be done with it, no questions asked.
Or a Wizard/Bard could just have some Contingency ready, or use Dimension Door to let out his own army...

Even worse if the opponent knew about that particular tactic. A Readied Fireball once you see the packed horde makes the whole build moot. Some Glyphs of Warding to buff yourself or provoke damage (one of the case when Investiture spells can come in handy ;)).

Of course, shapechanging the Servants into flying creatures makes the idea MUCH better because many battlefield control spells cannot affect them (and even some of the most powerful AOE) so there is a higher chance that the opponent will have to rely on defense/evasion instead of blasting your army (plus Giant Eagles or the like have a decent chance at succeeding Perception rolls to find a hidden guy), but overall it's still much less dangerous than many many other things a 20th level caster could do.
A caster really wanting to build on this would better sacrifice his 3 last levels to get Extend Metamagic: won't resolve any of the intrinsical flaws, but at least he can double output once more. XD

Tiny Servant, with or without buffs, is a great kind of trick to use for quite a few levels when all the right conditions are fulfilled, like your party is tasked to take out a bandit stronghold and yet you're severely outnumbered (and dont have Shepherd Druid) but it's really not a way for anyone to achieve world domination. At best, small isolated city domination. XD

[The_Jette]

Couldn't this be negated by the enemy using "Anti-Magic Field"? I mean... any of the swarm coming near the Wizard that casts it would be returned to its Tiny Servant form, which would be suppressed or turned back into a normal object depending on one's interpretation of the Tiny Servant being a magic item, or an item under the effects of a spell. And, that's an 8th level spell, as opposed to the 9th level + multiple other spell slots required to form the swarm. Seems like a massive investment of resources for something that can be suppressed so easily.

[Baptor]

This is why we can't have nice things.

I realize that finding the weird synergies in the rules is a game within a game, sort of a meta-game, but at some point in my playing of the D&D games (various editions) it lost its attraction.

I agree 100%. This is D&D, a RPG, not Magic the Gathering.

That's no knock against MtG. I love that game. But this kind of theorycrafting and rules exploiting is for that kind of game, not D&D. D&D is a cooperative role playing game designed so that everyone at the table can have fun together - the DM and the players. "Winning" is not the primary goal.

Now maybe you and your DM love this kind of thing, but most DMs I know would consider a player who comes to the table expecting to "exploit" the rules to deal 2000 damage a living nightmare. I know I would.

If my players discover something like this, they usually tell me about it so I am aware and then they never use it because it would break the rule of fun.

[Contrast]

The other drawback here is stealth. I'd imagine hundreds of tiny constructs running through the walls aren't going to be very quiet.


if the objects lacks legs or other appendages it can use for locomotion, it instead has a flying speed of 30 feet and can hover

I don't see any particular reason a load of levitating objects would be particularly noisy provided they had enough space they weren't all bumping into each other.

[MaxWilson]

Congratulations, all of our tiny servants are now an Indian style-legion of Elephants ( Or any beast below CR 4, including the flying ones for ease of travel ) as they quickly get ejected everywhere for occupying each other's space with...

As noted by others, Animal Shapes can't produce elephants.

Anyway, there's nothing unique that Tiny Servant is bringing to the table here in terms of power. Sure, it's more *convenient* to carry around hundreds of objects than hundreds of corpses, but since we all know nobody is going to have hundreds of either in practice, it doesn't matter. In terms of raw power, skeletons from a Necromancer have better range, way more HP and damage, three times the duration, and can be up-armored just by putting scale mail on them. And you get 6-8 skeletons out of a 5th level slot, vs only 5 Tiny Servant.

And yet, Necromancer PCs never actually max out on skeletons, because why bother? It's completely redundant. A Tiny Servant spell caster will in practice wind up spending far more spell slots in order to be even roughly as effective.

Animal Shapes has always been an amazing spell, and it works equally well on skeletons or zombies or indeed on a bunch of rats from the city's ratcatcher which you rescued and befriended. Tiny Servant is more logistically convenient than gathering up rats, but fundamentally it is Animal Shapes that is supplying the power here.

Note also that by the time you can Wish for Animal Shapes, a high-level Necromancer is barely even bothering with skeletons any more. He's moved on to Planar Bound elementals and Nycaloths, permanently Geased up-armored dual-wielding wights (with Undead Thrall bonuses), and a Mummy Lord or dracolich or death tyrant lieutenant via Command Undead, plus a Simulacrum of himself and a second lieutenant for his Simulacrum. (And again, in practice he probably doesn't bother with more than a couple dozen wights or elementals, and even that many is only because wights are intelligent enough to manage themselves and operate independently.)

Tiny Servant is not power creep. It's just more of the same. Stacking no-concentration minions are powerful in 5E and always have been.

[MaxWilson]

I don't see any particular reason a load of levitating objects would be particularly noisy provided they had enough space they weren't all bumping into each other.

Tiny Servant always makes objects grow legs, not levitate.

[Davrix]

Thinking about it if you wanted to be a little sneak on this sort of thing.

You make one tiny servant a day and cast sequester. Now i think it will depend if the stasis prolongs the spell effects or not but lets just say it does.

Fill a demiplane with them over the coarse of a year. Then when you really need that sudden influx of backup say vs an army. Have your simulacrum cast demiplane and you can cast animal shapes on them after they have filed out and well army of giant eagles.

[EvilAnagram]

How is a caster summoning 83 servants?

[Davrix]

How is a caster summoning 83 servants?
Using all his spell slots because it doesn't take concentration.

[EvilAnagram]

Using all his spell slots because it doesn't take concentration.
Oh. Yeah, okay. I'd let this slide. If you want to give up all your versatility to have an unwieldy mass of beasts charge into battle, I'm fine with that.

[Davrix]

Oh. Yeah, okay. I'd let this slide. If you want to give up all your versatility to have an unwieldy mass of beasts charge into battle, I'm fine with that.

To be honest it doesn't even need to be that many to be pretty effective. You can gather an army of 20 or so without exceeding every spell slot and having say 20 giant eagles flying around will definitely have some good back up potential

[MaxWilson]

To be honest it doesn't even need to be that many to be pretty effective. You can gather an army of 20 or so without exceeding every spell slot and having say 20 giant eagles flying around will definitely have some good back up potential

You're burning twenty fifth level spells and a Wish and your concentration on twenty giant eagles at 17th+ level? Fine, knock yourself out. It's good against some things but they'll die in heaps to dragons and other AoEs. Giant Eagles don't even have flyby.

A druid gets basically the same effect out of a single Conjure Animals V spell. A necromancer gets a much better effect that's less vulnerable to AoE and does more damage.

[Unoriginal]

You're burning twenty fifth level spells and a Wish and your concentration on twenty giant eagles at 17th+ level? Fine, knock yourself out. It's good against some things but they'll die in heaps to dragons and other AoEs. Giant Eagles don't even have flyby.

A druid gets basically the same effect out of a single Conjure Animals V spell. A necromancer gets a much better effect that's less vulnerable to AoE and does more damage.

This thread's OP typically did things like that, yes.

[Renduaz]

This thread's OP typically did things like that, yes.

Unoriginal typically can't count and will start attacking me because of things that someone else said. What 20 fifth-level spells? Are you feeling alright, both of you? 5th level slot for 5 servants. five slots for 20 servants, 4 hours of Elven rest, and you wake up with full slots and 20 eagles good for 4 hours. Then all you need is the Wish. But that Wish wasn't meant to be spent on 20 Eagles at any case, it was meant to be spent on hundreds of them, with all of your slots still reserved.

Good job, Unoriginal.

[MaxWilson]

Unoriginal typically can't count and will start attacking me because of things that someone else said. What 20 fifth-level spells? Are you feeling alright, both of you? 5th level slot for 5 servants. five slots for 20 servants, 4 hours of Elven rest, and you wake up with full slots and 20 eagles good for 4 hours. Then all you need is the Wish. But that Wish wasn't meant to be spent on 20 Eagles at any case, it was meant to be spent on hundreds of them, with all of your slots still reserved.

Good job, Unoriginal.

Sorry, my bad on the number of spell slots. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote 20. I still don't think it's something that needs to be prevented. Correct me if I misremember the context, but I believe that if you have not cast Wish (Animal Shapes) yet right after your rest, they aren't giant eagles yet. They're still just Tiny Servant.

Basically, it isn't worth a Wish.

[Renduaz]

Sorry, my bad on the number of spell slots. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote 20. I still don't think it's something that needs to be prevented. Correct me if I misremember the context, but I believe that if you have not cast Wish (Animal Shapes) yet right after your rest, they aren't giant eagles yet. They're still just Tiny Servant.

Basically, it isn't worth a Wish.

Yes, they're still Servants when you wake up until you cast the Wish for Animal Shapes, but that's what I meant - 5 slots, Rest, then you just need the Wish for Eagles. But when you realize that you're taking a 4-hour Long Rest, it doesn't matter how many slots you use because all of them are replenished. Even without the Simulacrum, that's 83 Giant Eagles lasting 4 hours for a 9th level slot. Which I thought when I made the thread, and still think, is completely worth it for plenty of scenarios.

We've already discussed over these 3 pages that 83 Giant Eagles ( or 166 of them with a Simulacrum ) which when spread out in the air and having 80 feet of speed to change positions in their turns aren't being taken down by anybody's AOE that easily, we've already discussed protecting your own concentration from safey and still controlling that armada, and what kind of foes they can descend down on and completely eviscerate.

I have yet to receive a convincing explanation of why an Army of 83 Giant Eagles at the expense of a 9th level slot is a bad trade compared to any other 9th level spell or lower when it comes to having the right tool for the right job. I can in fact assure you that I can think of way more uses for those Eagles than you can for a Meteor Swarm or the majority of spells in that category. There are good tricks you can pull off with certain ones like Shapechange and Gate, but I can put 83 Giant Eagles to just as much of a good use in plenty of scenarios. And it's absolutely not equivalent to a Druid's Conjure Animals in any way, shape or form, even if you only wanted 20. Not sure why you typed that either. A 9th level Conjure Animals ( Concentration ) will earn you 8 Eagles for 1 hour.

And by the way, The Huge sized Quetzalcoatlus with CR 2, Dive Attack and Flyby is superior to the Eagle, and I can have 83 of them just the same with Animal Shapes.

[Zippdementia]

And this is why we fill our bunkers with marauders and firebats.

[Derpaligtr]

I need this to combo with, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498111-Animal-Messenger-(and-how-to-use-it-wrong), in my next campaign to set up an interesting cold war.

[Renduaz]

I need this to combo with, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498111-Animal-Messenger-(and-how-to-use-it-wrong), in my next campaign to set up an interesting cold war.

Looks interesting, had something like that in mind too. But several major drawbacks - He needs to personally gather all those flying snakes from somewhere, pen them, then go ahead with it. Meanwhile Tiny Servant applies to any tiny object. Must've visited the location he's sending them to, and a recepient's general description. Can't dictate the route of his fleet, can't dictate their strategy or actions when they arrive either. And they're all very low CR. On the other hand, Pros are that it's functional at very low levels too with minimal expenditure. Yet still highly possible that his targets just barricade themselves somewhere or flee and the beasts disperse.

Meanwhile the Animal Shapes armadas, CR 2-4, personally commanded all at once with a bonus action throughout their duration ( And follow any order until the task is completed ), while even maintaining a link from afar to bypass 120 feet restriction by ordering them through something like Rary's Telepathic Bond ( Ritual ) for every squad. You can even get visuals from the battlefield from an "Observer Unit" with Telepathy. And you have an infinity of Tiny Objects to transform at any place and any time, don't need to collect 100 exotic beasts every time anew, which would probably prove quite the daunting if at all possible at those levels, depending on how many extremely exotic beasts you have access to.

So I guess 1v1, mine will definitely win ( To no surprise, since you're a level 20 Spellcaster too ), but a bunch of low-level casters could launch disorganized pestilences on places. On the other hand the Animal Servants are a coordinated elite strike team.

[Unoriginal]

I have yet to receive a convincing explanation of why an Army of 83 Giant Eagles at the expense of a 9th level slot is a bad trade compared to any other 9th level spell or lower when it comes to having the right tool for the right job.

Given that you're yet to give any explanation about how needing (4h + time spent casting Tiny Servant) of time to set up the use of a 9th level spell slot is anywhere practical enough to be the "right tool" for"plenty of scenario"...

Because the only kind of scenarios this would be useful would be:

1.You have a 17th-20th level Wizard who is aware of a threat which is either showing up within the next 8 hours or who is 4h away at Giant Eagle/Quetzalcoatlus flight speed

2.Said threat can be dealt with with 83 Tiny ServantsGiant Eagles/Quetzacoatluses

3.Said threat would not be dealt with more easily/more efficiently by a DIFFERENT use of your 9th level spell slot.

The conditions of 1. are pretty specific, but atmitedly it could still happen. I'd even say that 2. could happen easily. But 3.? Sorry, but in nearly ALL the cases, you're better off with a different plan.

How do I know that? Because rather than using Animal Shapes on Tiny Servants you could easily use it on a bunch of people, which a) remove the need to prepare 4h in advance and hope you can long rest b) you can actually put more people into the "anyone you see within 30ft of you" than 83 c) you won't have the Tiny Servant issue of the animals getting out of "you can order" range d) give you 8h to do your thing rather than 4h.


So yeah, your combo is useful if you have an high level wizard who's waiting for a threat, who has a long time to prepare, and who is alone or has not enough people to help.

In other words, it's very niche.

But what do I know? Maybe having to wait more than 4h and then need precise timing to do something Druids can do more easily and for more creatures with an 8th lvl spell is considered impressive.

[Renduaz]

Given that you're yet to give any explanation about how needing (4h + time spent casting Tiny Servant) of time to set up the use of a 9th level spell slot is anywhere practical enough to be the "right tool" for"plenty of scenario"...

Because the only kind of scenarios this would be useful would be:

1.You have a 17th-20th level Wizard who is aware of a threat which is either showing up within the next 8 hours or who is 4h away at Giant Eagle/Quetzalcoatlus flight speed

2.Said threat can be dealt with with 83 Tiny ServantsGiant Eagles/Quetzacoatluses

3.Said threat would not be dealt with more easily/more efficiently by a DIFFERENT use of your 9th level spell slot.

The conditions of 1. are pretty specific, but atmitedly it could still happen. I'd even say that 2. could happen easily. But 3.? Sorry, but in nearly ALL the cases, you're better off with a different plan.

How do I know that? Because rather than using Animal Shapes on Tiny Servants you could easily use it on a bunch of people, which a) remove the need to prepare 4h in advance and hope you can long rest b) you can actually put more people into the "anyone you see within 30ft of you" than 83 c) you won't have the Tiny Servant issue of the animals getting out of "you can order" range d) give you 8h to do your thing rather than 4h.


So yeah, your combo is useful if you have an high level wizard who's waiting for a threat, who has a long time to prepare, and who is alone or has not enough people to help.

In other words, it's very niche.

But what do I know? Maybe having to wait more than 4h and then need precise timing to do something Druids can do more easily and for more creatures with an 8th lvl spell is considered impressive.

Love how you skip over the fact that you started insulting me for no good reason because of a faulty calculation on Wilson's part, which he already said was wrong. Let's get on with it:

1. Sounds extremely plausible, and doesn't have a threat, can be virtually any stable location that needs to be attacked.

2. Also sounds quite plausible, save for targets with magic weapon immunity.

3. Even more plausible. The animals last for 4 hours, can be controlled distantly, keep attacking perpetually and in fact can only be dispelled individually, unlike your own character.

How do you know that? Because you don't know anything, as usual. Those Tiny Servants are completely loyal, will fight to the death, are expendable, and bonus - can be infinitely created from an infinite number of tiny objects day after day after day. Your 83 people that you plucked out of god knows where to be transformed into magical animals and sent to fight for whatever you tell them to? DO NOT FIT in any of those categories, and oh yeah, Animal Shapes only works on willing targets. And point (b) doesn't even make sense at all ( humans occupy less space than tiny servants? lolwut? ) nor is point (c) an issue with some alterations.

Please find another way to pick your bone with me instead of this rubbish. There are more than a dozen posters in the thread who do find it suitable, and apparently they certainly know more than you do. You can keep your brilliant, superior idea of finding 83 people who enjoy being transformed into magical birds and sent to their death every time anew to yourself if you despise mine so greatly.

[Unoriginal]

Ah, yes, people willing to fight for you. Where would a 20th level character find that. I mean, they'd have to be some kind of soldiers, and the gods know those don't exist.

If you think that being unable to properly direct your troops when they're at more than 120ft isn't a huge tactical problem, then I can't help you.

Also I didn't say humanoids would take less room than Tiny Servants. i said you could use Animal Shapes on more humanoids because there is no 83-servants-because-spell-slots limit and you can still put more than 83 beings within the spell range.

[Renduaz]

Ah, yes, people willing to fight for you. Where would a 20th level character find that. I mean, they'd have to be some kind of soldiers, and the gods know those don't exist.

If you think that being unable to properly direct your troops when they're at more than 120ft isn't a huge tactical problem, then I can't help you.

Yeah, all level 20 characters always have 83 loyal soldiers to scoop up at any given moment who are eager and willing to undergo magical transformations and sent to fight for literally any purpose that you have in mind for them regardless of personal feelings. And if some die, that's a-okay because you'll just reach into your soldier pool and teleport a fresh batch whenever you want to do it again. Nope, totally doesn't make more sense to spend a 9th level slot on a bunch of tiny objects that can be assembled at any place and time with unconditional obedience.

Thanks for trying to "help", but I never asked for it. Also, you can give your tiny servants a general order to follow, and it would work the same with your humans, you know that right? Oh, let me guess your humans will know how to communicate with each other in their animal forms - When they can't speak at all. Is that it? I already wrote, in the thread which you aren't reading, that you can actually command all the animals at any given point with Rary's Telepathic Bond ( ritual ) shared with several of them, and if need be an 8th level Telepathy for a bird's eye visual too.

And sure, you do you and have fun conjuring up those batches of 83 blindingly obedient soldiers that you have such a large supply of in your campaign, and I'll do stupid me and use my 9th level slot with Tiny Servants instead. I mean, might as well just find yourself 83 Griffon/Wyvern Riders too while you're at it, save the trouble of that 8th Druid spell. I hear that Unoriginal's Legions are a force to be reckoned with, inspired by the heroism and strategic caution of their leader who likes to spend his men more than he likes to spend spell slots.

[Citan]

Yeah, all level 20 characters always have 83 loyal soldiers to scoop up at any given moment who are eager and willing to undergo magical transformations and sent to fight for literally any purpose that you have in mind for them regardless of personal feelings. And if some die, that's a-okay because you'll just reach into your soldier pool and teleport a fresh batch whenever you want to do it again. Nope, totally doesn't make more sense to spend a 9th level slot on a bunch of tiny objects that can be assembled at any place and time with unconditional obedience.

Thanks for trying to "help", but I never asked for it. Also, you can give your tiny servants a general order to follow, and it would work the same with your humans, you know that right? Oh, let me guess your humans will know how to communicate with each other in their animal forms - When they can't speak at all. Is that it? I already wrote, in the thread which you aren't reading, that you can actually command all the animals at any given point with Rary's Telepathic Bond ( ritual ) shared with several of them, and if need be an 8th level Telepathy for a bird's eye visual too.

And sure, you do you and have fun conjuring up those batches of 83 blindingly obedient soldiers that you have such a large supply of in your campaign, and I'll do stupid me and use my 9th level slot with Tiny Servants instead. I mean, might as well just find yourself 83 Griffon/Wyvern Riders too while you're at it, save the trouble of that 8th Druid spell. I hear that Unoriginal's Legions are a force to be reckoned with, inspired by the heroism and strategic caution of their leader who likes to spend his men more than he likes to spend spell slots.
I understand there has been heat between you, but I don't think it's necessary to go to such arrogance. :)

Also, seriously, your trick is nice, but it won't be useful more than once or twice.

First, if you so happen to fight a Druid, Storm of Vengeance cast with a bit of thinking when your swarm is still coming in has a high chance of severely reducing it, thanks to automatic damage and soon blindness. Even by RAW, although I think a DM may very well also decide there is a penalty for moving once you get to the point where rain and wind "make ranged attacks impossible".

Same with Meteor Swarm, if you fight a powerful caster, if you get the jump on him you have decent chance to win, but if he's aware you're threatening him, he will use all means available to watch you to try and cast MS right when you gather everyone to transform then, or (because you'll probabluy do that in a safe place) just when you set out.
Some other spells like Fire Storm have an extremely great range (especially with Extend) and are great used in cases like this with different patches of armies spreaded out.

Furthermore, lower spells such as Sleet Storm or Control Winds are accessible to many casters, easy to use and can also greatly reduce your threat, either by putting down outright a good chunk of your eagle army, or by blocking a good portion of "navigable area", forcing them to choose between "wait" (then enemy flies) or "force" (then have to channel themselves in a narrower area, making enemy AOE much more dangerous).

There is also some special cases like Necromancer Wizard (even a pure one can probably sustain something like 20 skeletons without difficulty, and probably twice as that if preparing for a fight). Skeletons will be crushed over one round, twice max, but they will have had time to kill quite a few eagles on their way.

More generally, any enemy party seeing a huge mass of flying creatures rushing at them, and deciding it has no way of directly facing them, will use whatever it has to change the settings in order to make the numbers irrelevant: completely blocking access to them by retiring into closed area or using spells for that, fleeing faster than them (although I dont see many ways here apart teleportation, unless specific casters in party or small party with both Haste / and Fly or Phantom Steed for everyone).

Other tactics, although those require the caster to be informed of your coming (or be very lucky, or specialized in manipulation) includes Extended Compulsion, prepared Sympathy (to gather them for roasting with Fireball / trap / whatever else) or Antipathy (for the pleasure of pointing a middle-finger at them while most, if not all, will desperately roam around the caster because leaving/entering AOE repeatedly).

So basically your trick is great...
- To frighten civilians (which is not impressive at all: any caster beyond 13th can do that different ways, sometimes even before).
- To make a small army travel (unless I'm mistaken, a Giant Eagle can hold a medium-sized creature unless it's heavily loaded).
- To mass-loot quickly (which is very interesting to my eyes XD).
- To subdue many kind of enemies when you can get them while in open areas and without them having some kind of closed (or semi-closed) area to haven into safe by.
And many other kind of things, like quickly transmitting messages by organizing them into a relay chain, or helping peasants prepare fields by depositing crops or maybe holding/pouring water from a tool (water bomb incoming! XD).

But winning a real tough fight? Sorry, this has a low chance to happen.

By the way, reducing seasoned soldiers to mindless and borderline stupid eagles is really ashaming of you. ^^
Soldiers can be hired through money, fame / honor, dedication to a cause, love / respect, or plain fear.
Dare tell me that in your eyes a high-level caster (and most 20-th level characters really) would not be able to lever any of those at any time...
Soldiers are trained for those kind of situations, so obviously transforming them would be imo a very, very stupid thing to do. Instead, find a way to transport them as quickly and safely as possible (possibly using the Animal Shapes Giant Eagle precisely, you just drop concentration), then use their abilities to set up actual strategies and fall-back options.
Soldiers don't need orders to understand that to hit a out-of-melee target they have to switch to ranged weapon (which incidentally makes focus-fire much easier thanks for much better range).
Soldiers know how to Hide, to Help others, to flank, they may even use stabilizers to prevent people from dying. They don't care about being more than 120 feet away from you, although having telepathic contact is still a big boon if possible.
On that point by the way, with your Giant Eagles, you need Telepathic Bond with ALL of them if you really want all flock(s) to act as desired. Because you can't reasonably expect to have a few of them "lead" (as in military way lead) the others.
Humans though? Put them in squads, bond with leaders will be enough.
Soldiers understand difference of priorities between objectives, can adapt with (normally) logical changes of tactics when something unpredicted change the situation in an unfavorable way.

It's a whole different world than Eagles really, unless you decide to hire wannabee or failed soldiers for some reason.

Also, thanks for incidentally showing off, once more, how Sorcerer rocks hard (Distant Animal Shapes = "anyone you can see or hear within 30 ->60 feet". :smallcool:).

[Renduaz]

I understand there has been heat between you, but I don't think it's necessary to go to such arrogance. :)


Yes, there has been some heat, often of Unoriginal trying really hard to shoot down everything I say while this time around showing up just to offer me an underhanded insult in his first post while replying to an argument which wasn't even accurate by admission. And then bringing up an infinitely worse if at all possible method to demonstrate why mine is redundant apparently.



Also, seriously, your trick is nice, but it won't be useful more than once or twice.

First, if you so happen to fight a Druid, Storm of Vengeance cast with a bit of thinking when your swarm is still coming in has a high chance of severely reducing it, thanks to automatic damage and soon blindness. Even by RAW, although I think a DM may very well also decide there is a penalty for moving once you get to the point where rain and wind "make ranged attacks impossible".

It would obviously be preferable if you spaced out your eagles as much as possible, both when traveling and then when fighting. The storm is 360 radius and each eagle has like 80 feet flying speed. So if someone did forget to space them out when they travel, a bunch could be downed, but then that Druid also wasted their own 9th level spell on doing so. And indeed if should also be clear that 1v1 fights against level 20 spellcasters isn't exactly what this is meant for, if the preparation didn't give it away.


Same with Meteor Swarm, if you fight a powerful caster, if you get the jump on him you have decent chance to win, but if he's aware you're threatening him, he will use all means available to watch you to try and cast MS right when you gather everyone to transform then, or (because you'll probabluy do that in a safe place) just when you set out.
Some other spells like Fire Storm have an extremely great range (especially with Extend) and are great used in cases like this with different patches of armies spreaded out.

I agree with you that you should absolutely not be using this method to fight level 20 Classed spellcasters, particularly not in a scenario in which you aren't even safe enough to prepare anything. And if for some reason you elected to do it under these conditions, then you should probably have like some kind of protection by default. Nobody wants a 20th level hostile spellcaster showing up near them regardless of what they're doing at the time, so you should have at least a Tiny Hunt or Private Mansion or something else running up. Or you know, just rest and prepare somewhere you can't be found. That's taken for granted.


Furthermore, lower spells such as Sleet Storm or Control Winds are accessible to many casters, easy to use and can also greatly reduce your threat, either by putting down outright a good chunk of your eagle army, or by blocking a good portion of "navigable area", forcing them to choose between "wait" (then enemy flies) or "force" (then have to channel themselves in a narrower area, making enemy AOE much more dangerous).

I think Control Winds wouldn't be sufficient to lessen most of the impact, but regardless, 40 foot radius for Sleet Storm and 100 feet radius for Winds ( Both of which take their caster's concentration by the way ), I do think can easily be avoided by most of the beasts, unless he's doing it on himself and his own folk in which case they're in trouble too, and the Eagles/Quez's might as well just Dash the heck out of doge and continue climbing thousands of feet up the air to wait it out and let him waste his slots.

Again, not optimal to fight Classed Character Spellcasters to begin with, but still.


There is also some special cases like Necromancer Wizard (even a pure one can probably sustain something like 20 skeletons without difficulty, and probably twice as that if preparing for a fight). Skeletons will be crushed over one round, twice max, but they will have had time to kill quite a few eagles on their way.

Sure, summoners can fight fire with fire. Might as well just mention a Wizard with his own flying army at this point, that's always a problem with anything. Any trick that was ever pulled off by anyone, and is usually intended to work best against monsters, will run into an infinite number of countermoves when the opponent is a classed level 20 spellcaster.


More generally, any enemy party seeing a huge mass of flying creatures rushing at them, and deciding it has no way of directly facing them, will use whatever it has to change the settings in order to make the numbers irrelevant: completely blocking access to them by retiring into closed area or using spells for that, fleeing faster than them (although I dont see many ways here apart teleportation, unless specific casters in party or small party with both Haste / and Fly or Phantom Steed for everyone).

Again, you're not meant to use tricks for their literal worst scenarios - I.E summons against level 20 spellcasters. But closed area only applies if they're not in open terrain, and then there are some closed spaces which can still be overturned/busted through by Huge Quez's.


Other tactics, although those require the caster to be informed of your coming (or be very lucky, or specialized in manipulation) includes Extended Compulsion, prepared Sympathy (to gather them for roasting with Fireball / trap / whatever else) or Antipathy (for the pleasure of pointing a middle-finger at them while most, if not all, will desperately roam around the caster because leaving/entering AOE repeatedly).

Same principles as outlined above. Level 20 Spellcasters have awesome tricks, and that's exactly why each awesome trick always has it's rival trick when fighting another level 20 spellcaster. Conclusion: You're gonna have the hardest time using your tricks as a level 20 spellcaster against other level 20 spellcasters. And that applies to everything.


So basically your trick is great...
- To frighten civilians (which is not impressive at all: any caster beyond 13th can do that different ways, sometimes even before).
- To make a small army travel (unless I'm mistaken, a Giant Eagle can hold a medium-sized creature unless it's heavily loaded).
- To mass-loot quickly (which is very interesting to my eyes XD).
- To subdue many kind of enemies when you can get them while in open areas and without them having some kind of closed (or semi-closed) area to haven into safe by.
And many other kind of things, like quickly transmitting messages by organizing them into a relay chain, or helping peasants prepare fields by depositing crops or maybe holding/pouring water from a tool (water bomb incoming! XD).

To assault a massive Hobgoblin war camp with 100's of troops and at least slightly reduce their numbers, and be able to harass them in that fashion for a very long time, or a standing army, or a cursed forests with a werewolf pack rolling through it or any terrain with a bunch of creatures moving through it that needs a quick strike-down. "What about meteor swarm, etc..." - they will outrun your AOE's and you won't get everyone in your radiuses. Meanwhile those Eagles/Quez are in full pursuit, hunting them down for hours, and they're probably not outrunning them. Same goes for skeletons. No rushing behind some ravine or hill and then mounting a defensive.

Taking down creatures ( who aren't classed characters ) in open spaces without immunity to non-magical weapons in practically a single turn.

Attacking Elementals and others who might be immune to your favorite fire/poison AOE.

Unleashing hell on cities, also with much less chance of someone finding out what the hell is behind it.

Very useful - Most other 9th level spells can be Dispelled instantly, Including something like Storm of Vengeance and other ongoing spells. ( And that's assuming you aren't around to be discovered doing it which makes you a prime target for everyone. With the Animal Shapes you can control all from afar ) Meanwhile when it comes to this, Each Eagle/Quez needs to be dispelled individually. There's no effect to focus on and dispel all at once.

And so on and so forth.




But winning a real tough fight? Sorry, this has a low chance to happen.

It is, just not against a 20th level spellcaster.


By the way, reducing seasoned soldiers to mindless and borderline stupid eagles is really ashaming of you. ^^

Have you been reading the exchange? That's what Unoriginal proposed as a "superior" idea, not me. Unless you're implying something else.



Soldiers can be hired through money, fame / honor, dedication to a cause, love / respect, or plain fear.
Dare tell me that in your eyes a high-level caster (and most 20-th level characters really) would not be able to lever any of those at any time...
Soldiers are trained for those kind of situations, so obviously transforming them would be imo a very, very stupid thing to do. Instead, find a way to transport them as quickly and safely as possible (possibly using the Animal Shapes Giant Eagle precisely, you just drop concentration), then use their abilities to set up actual strategies and fall-back options.
Soldiers don't need orders to understand that to hit a out-of-melee target they have to switch to ranged weapon (which incidentally makes focus-fire much easier thanks for much better range).
Soldiers know how to Hide, to Help others, to flank, they may even use stabilizers to prevent people from dying. They don't care about being more than 120 feet away from you, although having telepathic contact is still a big boon if possible.
On that point by the way, with your Giant Eagles, you need Telepathic Bond with ALL of them if you really want all flock(s) to act as desired. Because you can't reasonably expect to have a few of them "lead" (as in military way lead) the others.
Humans though? Put them in squads, bond with leaders will be enough.
Soldiers understand difference of priorities between objectives, can adapt with (normally) logical changes of tactics when something unpredicted change the situation in an unfavorable way.

It's a whole different world than Eagles really, unless you decide to hire wannabee or failed soldiers for some reason.

Biggest problem is finding all those soldiers willing to do in the first place, and even if you did, you're assuming each Eagle trick has to be some grand service to the cause instead of you just wanting to kill or destroy something for your own reasons, and you just assume you have an infinite amount of soldiers willing to throw away their family and lives for this **** at all times. Secondly, as I said, when they DIE, PERMANENTLY, BECAUSE THEY'RE HUMANS, and not animated objects, next time you wanna do the trick, you have to find MORE 83 soldiers to line up neatly for you. Also, much harder to transport during your journey than a bunch of tiny objects.

Where's the logic in potentially killing off, wasting, ruining the lives of 83 ( apparently blindly obedient ) soldiers instead of just using a 9th level spell slot that you'll get back the next day? You're just depleting your own army for no good reason even if they did just obey your every whim.


so obviously transforming them would be imo a very, very stupid thing to do.

And once more I can't understand you because that's what I told Unoriginal and what I'm telling you now.


On that point by the way, with your Giant Eagles, you need Telepathic Bond with ALL of them if you really want all flock(s) to act as desired.

Tiny Servants follow all orders until the task is complete, which would include an initial order of replicating a squad leader's actions, which I think should be enough. But anyway you keep talking about human soldiers rather than Animal Shape'd human soldiers like Unoriginal did so I don't even know whose argument you're in anymore.

[Citan]

It seems you misunderstood me on an essential point.
While *you* have always been talking about a lvl 20 spellcaster, *I* have been talking about whatever kind of enemies you can encounter.

Take a group of bandits for example: Eagles coming, not enough archery? Just hold in their fort, readying actions to shoot arrows to eagles coming in or barricading themselves, waiting for the storm to pass. Or rush into the next bushes.

That is as simple as can be to shut down your big trick. Unless yourself also comes into the fight, but then you're exposing yourself.

There are also many places where flying won't help, like, you know, *dungeons* as in Dungeons&Dragon.

It's also why I pointed out spells like Sleet Storm and such, which is a point you apparently didn't understand either: it's great if you put down part of the horde immediately, but it's not the main benefit: the main benefit is to cut off a large part of the flying area to force your army to gather in a narrower area, thus making it easier for enemies to put them down with whatever mean they have.

And I didn't even get into traps, hazards and other triggerable spells anyone can access as low as 3rd level or so spells.
Or just a bunch of wanabee casters with Mold Earth that could quickly create a mini fort to limit access to them so that only a couple enemies can walk in and out at a time.

Any NPC based as a class-pc (which is imo fair for an important character of the world, but this is another debate) or not (lord, landlord, powerful merchant) with direct (being a caster) or indirect access (hiring others) to some manpower and low-level spells is largely enough to confront and overcome your eagle army.
Because, as large as may be, it's overall only beaks and tails of 26HP each, that has to be in melee range to deal any damage.

That's why I was so critical of your idea: it has overall the same basic limitations as an undead army, barring the mobility problem but without the ranged attack option.

You have been talking about "right tool for the right job" yet speaks about your idea like it's an "near-guaranteed win" in a very wide array of situations. Well, tough thing is, it's not.

It's great in open areas with very little cover/obstacles and nobody able to create them in enemy party, blatantly average otherwise considering the time and resources spent on it.

And I also strongly disagree on the fact that "replicating what leader does" is enough, but hey, if your DM allows it good for you.
Good luck when the leader gets shot down though.

Soldiers can process thoughts: that's the big difference. You don't have to be "behind" them, and you are not just throwing a coin if/when you lose telepathic connexion with some for whatever reason.
And there is no reason why they should necessarily die. As I tried (and apparently failed) to explain above, soldiers don't need you to hold their hands every step of the way. Plus you can equip them with better armor than they have normally, make them use magic weapons, spells stored in rings to use, buff them in different ways.
And because you are not limited by a spell, absolutely nothing forces you to hire basic people instead of Veterans and CR 2+ caster NPCs for healing / AOE.

If they die, it's on you, you were a bad leader, either because you considered them expandable or because you crafted a very crappy strategy.
So, yeah, when you don't want to think things through, using your trick is obviously better as far as your reputation in the world goes.

Besides that?
Myself will take humanoid army any day, every day. If it's too much gold to sustain it as a permanent one, just pay them for the mission with a risk/reward, or subdue them another mean depending on your goal.
If you are a Good character, chances are you are asking for help in putting down something/someone that would be dangerous for the whole region or more, you will certainly find a few people concerned and ready to lend help.
If you are a Bad character, manipulating with lies, threatening them or simply enchant them will work fine too.

EDIT: As for the Quetzacoatl question, while strangely by RAW there is no requirement for you to have seen the beast beforehand, I think a DM would be in his right to refuse one or few specific creatures because it just cannot reasonably exist in the chosen setting for campaign. It would of course also be true for eagles technically, but apart maybe Elemental Planes, I daresay eagle would be farily common whatever setting one choose.
Besides that, I don't get why it would be better than eagles except, again, as a way to lift big(ger) armies. Huge mean it's more difficult for them to relay in attacking a target in spite of bigger reach, and they will be completely useless in any foresty terrain or similar.

[MaxWilson]

I have yet to receive a convincing explanation of why an Army of 83 Giant Eagles at the expense of a 9th level slot is a bad trade compared to any other 9th level spell or lower when it comes to having the right tool for the right job. I can in fact assure you that I can think of way more uses for those Eagles than you can for a Meteor Swarm or the majority of spells in that category. There are good tricks you can pull off with certain ones like Shapechange and Gate, but I can put 83 Giant Eagles to just as much of a good use in plenty of scenarios. And it's absolutely not equivalent to a Druid's Conjure Animals in any way, shape or form, even if you only wanted 20. Not sure why you typed that either. A 9th level Conjure Animals ( Concentration ) will earn you 8 Eagles for 1 hour.

I was responding to your suggestion that it's worth spending a Wish for even as few as 20 Giant Eagles. Conjure Animals V will (potentially) get you 16 Giant Owls for an hour, in a single action, no wish required. I don't see much difference between 16 Giant Owls and 20 Eagles, do you? Either way you're spending your concentration, but one of them costs a Wish. Yes, you get eagles instead of owls, and yes it lasts for four hours (concentration) instead of one hour (concentration), but since you have to prep it way in advance instead of casting it on demand in a single action, I'm not persuaded the duration difference matters.

Anyway, if you want to break the game, True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths and then Wishing to Planar Bind them is far more broken. 83 Giant Eagles? Pffft. Try 83 Nycaloths and 30 Glabrezu, plus maybe 20 Air Elementals.

The Animal Shapes combo is much better if you do it the classic way, with a druid instead of a wizard, using a horde of friendly mice recruited from the city slums using Speak With Animals and Enhance Ability (Persuasion).


To assault a massive Hobgoblin war camp with 100's of troops and at least slightly reduce their numbers, and be able to harass them in that fashion for a very long time, or a standing army

...or you could just True Polymorph your Simulacrum into a Demi-lich and have it go kill all the hobgoblins. (Or if you prefer spells: True Polymorph a tree into a werebear, have your simulacrum take over its body with Magic Jar and then go kill the hobgoblins with spells while remaining immune to their weapons.)

If you're trying to persuade us that Tiny Servant + Wish lets you do new and exciting things that were impossible before Tiny Servant... it's not working yet.

[Citan]

Anyway, if you want to break the game, True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths and then Wishing to Planar Bind them is far more broken. 83 Giant Eagles? Pffft. Try 83 Nycaloths and 30 Glabrezu, plus maybe 20 Air Elementals.

The Animal Shapes combo is much better if you do it the classic way, with a druid instead of a wizard, using a horde of friendly mice recruited from the city slums using Speak With Animals and Enhance Ability (Persuasion).
This sounds absurdingly crazy broken. XD

[Renduaz]

I was responding to your suggestion that it's worth spending a Wish for even as few as 20 Giant Eagles. Conjure Animals V will (potentially) get you 16 Giant Owls for an hour, in a single action, no wish required. I don't see much difference between 16 Giant Owls and 20 Eagles, do you? Either way you're spending your concentration, but one of them costs a Wish. Yes, you get eagles instead of owls, and yes it lasts for four hours (concentration) instead of one hour (concentration), but since you have to prep it way in advance instead of casting it on demand in a single action, I'm not persuaded the duration difference matters.

Anyway, if you want to break the game, True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths and then Wishing to Planar Bind them is far more broken. 83 Giant Eagles? Pffft. Try 83 Nycaloths and 30 Glabrezu, plus maybe 20 Air Elementals.

The Animal Shapes combo is much better if you do it the classic way, with a druid instead of a wizard, using a horde of friendly mice recruited from the city slums using Speak With Animals and Enhance Ability (Persuasion).

What's this "V" in "Conjure Animals V" that you keep typing? And a Giant Owl ( At CR 1/4 compared to Giant Eagles at CR 1 ) is a goalpost shift. I never said it's worth a Wish even for 20. What I said is that you absolutely don't get the same effect out of Conjure Animals even if you wanted 20, which you don't. You're confusing me for the other poster you were talking to. He's the one who said 20 are still worth it. I mean, it can be worth it under specific circumstances, you still get 20 huge flying beasts which is in fact unique, but not as noteworthy.

And yes, I'm fully aware of methods to get more, and more powerful, summons. I posted several of them myself. INFINITE armies or summons, even. Just because someone posts a single method doesn't mean he can't keep posting other ones or for someone else to do so. And also, True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths takes a 9th level slot per tree, which is going to take you much more time before reaching 83. Advantages, disadvantages, see. And believe me when I say (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yGW6B68wAsR42Eo4qbg9TK8x10RcQsH2R1lQIoCiE3Y/pub) that I know a thing or two about controlling quantities of monsters in different ways. This thread isn't about breaking the game in the most spectacular fashion I can think of, it's just about the crazy damage and unique utilities provided by this particular combo. Nothing bad about having the means of dredging up 83/166 Eagles/Quez's or other beasts for whatever you might need them in a pinch and in about 4 hours, while also knowing how to summon quantities of undead and demons/elementals and so on.

And as for a much better combo with friendly mice - How are you planning on ordering them? For 10 minutes with speak with animals, shouting commands to each? To those mice whose ability to understand you is limited by their intelligence, and which have an INT of 2 ( And retain their INT and personality with Animal Shapes )? Because I think the Tiny Servants which can follow any order to it's completion by RAW are the better choice.

[Unoriginal]

I apologize for my insult. No matter what I think of this thread or of others like it, I should have been more polite toward you, Renduaz.

[Citan]

What's this "V" in "Conjure Animals V" that you keep typing? And a Giant Owl ( At CR 1/4 compared to Giant Eagles at CR 1 ) is a goalpost shift. I never said it's worth a Wish even for 20. What I said is that you absolutely don't get the same effect out of Conjure Animals even if you wanted 20, which you don't. You're confusing me for the other poster you were talking to. He's the one who said 20 are still worth it.

And yes, I'm fully aware of methods to get more and more powerful summons, I posted several of them myself. INFINITE armies or summons, even. Just because someone posts a single method doesn't mean he can't keep posting other ones or for someone else to do so. And also, True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths takes a 9th level slot per tree, which is going to take you much more time before reaching 83. Advantages, disadvantages, see. And believe me when I say (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yGW6B68wAsR42Eo4qbg9TK8x10RcQsH2R1lQIoCiE3Y/pub) that I'm very familiar with controlling quantities of monsters in different ways.
1. Honestly you could have found yourself by just spending 30 seconds on really reading and trying to understand what Max says.
Conjure Animals V = Conjure Animals, upcasted to get the upgraded effect of 5th level = cast as 9th level spell.

2. Max never said "it was the same". He said (from what I understood at least) that your idea is not worth the hassle if you are a character that could also simply upcast Conjure Animals, and I tend to really agree with him on this one.

3. Again, you are mounting on arrogance but disserving yourself here. Nobody is giving a judgement on your global experience (at least not me). We are just dissecting your idea and comparing its interest with others. And on that point, you are defensive to the point of borderline dishonesty here.
Yeah, sure, Max's idea takes more time. But you know, Planar Binding, upcast as a 8th level slot (in case you Wish it) lasts 180 days, or 365 as a 9th level.
So, since you want to speak of advantage/disadvantage, as far as the goal is "building a powerful army to use in various ways" Max's one trumps yours hard. Like, stomping it flat.
The only drawback of his is not time actually, it's getting the jewels required for Planar Binding... If you are casting it normally, since Wish also has the good taste of dispensing you both time to cast and any components.
So, it has actually no drawback. Compare:
Giant Eagle: usable from day to day, requiring +4 hours of prep *every day*.
Nycaloth: you have one extremely powerful ally adding up every two days, you can reasonably keep a revolving army of around 50 Nycaloths "permanently" (taking into account there are days when you actually want to use your high level spells for something else).

Day 10, you want to take a challenge up: you have ~4 less hours to complete it with Eagles. With Nycaloth? They are all set already. And you still have your 9th level slot at the ready (like, for example, a Wish "Mass Heal" to keep your 5 Nycaloth up after a bad hit such as a bad case of Meteor Swarm or taking up armies 10-fold, where giant eagles would have been killed and beyond save already, or an upcast Fly to let them get to some target quicker).

And honestly, I'd prefer having only even 1-2 Nycaloth over 83 Giant Eagles every day unless I have a specific need for quick, mass-transportation over long distance that couldn't be achieved through other way for some reason.

The only real problem of Nycaloth is that they are evil. ^^

[MaxWilson]

What's this "V" in "Conjure Animals V" that you keep typing?

V = Roman numeral 5, to denote casting it out of a 5th level spell slot to get 16 animals instead of 8.


And a Giant Owl ( At CR 1/4 compared to Giant Eagles at CR 1 ) is a goalpost shift.

Regardless of the CR, there's not much tactical difference between them.


I never said it's worth a Wish even for 20. What I said is that you absolutely don't get the same effect out of Conjure Animals even if you wanted 20, which you don't. You're confusing me for the other poster you were talking to. He's the one who said 20 are still worth it.

Wait... then why did you necro the thread to take my response to Davrix so personally? You're right, six months ago I was apparently responding to Davrix, not you, but then you necro'ed the thread in post #81 to defend Davrix's suggestion...

Anyway, hopefully we're all agreed now that it's not worth it for only 20 Giant Eagles and we can move on. I apologize for confusing you with Davrix.


And yes, I'm fully aware of methods to get more and more powerful summons, I posted several of them myself. INFINITE armies or summons, even. Just because someone posts a single method doesn't mean he can't keep posting other ones or for someone else to do so. And also, True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths takes a 9th level slot per tree, which is going to take you much more time before reaching 83. Advantages, disadvantages, see. And believe me when I say (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yGW6B68wAsR42Eo4qbg9TK8x10RcQsH2R1lQIoCiE3Y/pub) that I know a thing or two about controlling quantities of monsters in different ways. This thread isn't about breaking the game in the most spectacular fashion I can think of, it's just about the crazy damage and unique utilities provided by this particular combo. Nothing bad about having the means of dredging up 83/166 Eagles/Quez's or other beasts for whatever you might need them in a pinch and in about 4 hours, while also knowing how to summon quantities of undead and demons/elementals and so on.

Okay. I don't see anything unique about it, but okay. If you're just pointing out one potential technique, then I agree, it's a nice tool to have in your toolkit and worth knowing about. It's sort of like abusing Animate Dead + Animal Shapes, but without the requirement for a bunch of corpses beforehand. Personally I wouldn't play an elven spellcaster purely for the sake of maybe someday enabling this combo, so I'd never reach the theoretical limit of 83 Tiny Servants, more likely just 50 or so max (from 3rd-8th level spell slots) but yes, being able to pull out a bunch of pocket change, spend fifteen minutes enchanting it and turning it into a platoon of flying dinosaurs or whatever, and then ordering them to wipe out a hobgoblin outpost while you go to bed... it's kind of entertaining.

In terms of power it's probably not as good as True Polymorphing your Simulacrum into a Demi-lich and telling it to go wipe out those hobgoblins, but power isn't everything. Killing hobgoblins with pocket-change dinosaurs is probably more amusing, and a good tactic actually for a bad guy NPC to use against mid-level PCs.

So my inner evil DM thanks you for inspiring some thoughts on what to do to cause PCs grief. "Suddenly the inn doors begin shaking and you hear gigantic cawing sounds, and something starts trying to hammer its way in through the roof! It's an army of dinosaurs! [then when they kill one] As you slay the beast, it transforms into a paper envelope with some equations scrawled on the back! The envelope staggers briefly on its tiny hands and legs, then seems to steady itself and launches itself ferociously at your head, trying to papercut you to death! BTW there are still dinosaurs attacking you too." I think this would be quite funny.

Edit: responding to your edit:


And as for a much better combo with friendly mice - How are you planning on ordering them? For 10 minutes with speak with animals, shouting commands to each? To those mice whose ability to understand you is limited by their intelligence, and which have an INT of 2 ( And retain their INT and personality with Animal Shapes )? Because I think the Tiny Servants which can follow any order to it's completion by RAW are the better choice.

Either tell them to follow <more intelligent animal> or tell them to follow <Animal Messenger mouse>. Tiny Servants have the same Int as mice BTW: Int 2. Any plan which can be understood by a Tiny Servant can likewise be understood by a mouse. And the key point is: you don't need Wish in this scenario. You're just using regular druidic magic as soon as it comes online at level 15.

[Renduaz]

I apologize for my insult. No matter what I think of this thread or of others like it, I should have been more polite toward you, Renduaz.

Been there before, but accepted nevertheless. Would probably be preferable to pose the inquiries first, to me, before chiming in to discussion that do not involve me, and half-erroneous qualms just for that, essentially, potshots. Although as I said before, when I see threads that seem useless to me, I just scroll over. Anyway, crisis over now.

[MaxWilson]

Incidentally, just to prove that I'm not the only one who has math typos related to 20 Eagles...


Unoriginal typically can't count and will start attacking me because of things that someone else said. What 20 fifth-level spells? Are you feeling alright, both of you? 5th level slot for 5 servants. five slots for 20 servants, 4 hours of Elven rest, and you wake up with full slots and 20 eagles good for 4 hours. Then all you need is the Wish. But that Wish wasn't meant to be spent on 20 Eagles at any case, it was meant to be spent on hundreds of them, with all of your slots still reserved.

Good job, Unoriginal.

Four slots for 20 servants actually. Not twenty as I apparently typed six months ago, not five as Renduaz typed yesterday, but four.

Apparently 20 is a really hard number to do division correctly on. :-)

[Renduaz]

1. Honestly you could have found yourself by just spending 30 seconds on really reading and trying to understand what Max says.
Conjure Animals V = Conjure Animals, upcasted to get the upgraded effect of 5th level = cast as 9th level spell.

2. Max never said "it was the same". He said (from what I understood at least) that your idea is not worth the hassle if you are a character that could also simply upcast Conjure Animals, and I tend to really agree with him on this one.

3. Again, you are mounting on arrogance but disserving yourself here. Nobody is giving a judgement on your global experience (at least not me). We are just dissecting your idea and comparing its interest with others. And on that point, you are defensive to the point of borderline dishonesty here.
Yeah, sure, Max's idea takes more time. But you know, Planar Binding, upcast as a 8th level slot (in case you Wish it) lasts 180 days, or 365 as a 9th level.
So, since you want to speak of advantage/disadvantage, as far as the goal is "building a powerful army to use in various ways" Max's one trumps yours hard. Like, stomping it flat.
The only drawback of his is not time actually, it's getting the jewels required for Planar Binding... If you are casting it normally, since Wish also has the good taste of dispensing you both time to cast and any components.
So, it has actually no drawback. Compare:
Giant Eagle: usable from day to day, requiring +4 hours of prep *every day*.
Nycaloth: you have one extremely powerful ally adding up every two days, you can reasonably keep a revolving army of around 50 Nycaloths "permanently" (taking into account there are days when you actually want to use your high level spells for something else).

Day 10, you want to take a challenge up: you have ~4 less hours to complete it with Eagles. With Nycaloth? They are all set already. And you still have your 9th level slot at the ready (like, for example, a Wish "Mass Heal" to keep your 5 Nycaloth up after a bad hit such as a bad case of Meteor Swarm or taking up armies 10-fold, where giant eagles would have been killed and beyond save already, or an upcast Fly to let them get to some target quicker).

And honestly, I'd prefer having only even 1-2 Nycaloth over 83 Giant Eagles every day unless I have a specific need for quick, mass-transportation over long distance that couldn't be achieved through other way for some reason.

The only real problem of Nycaloth is that they are evil. ^^

1. I realized the upcasting, didn't really draw the connection to the Roman numeral V. I was just curious what it stood for. Because I've honestly never seen upcasted spells references in this manner, but good shorthand now that I think of it.

2. He did say it. You don't need to think, we have the post. But that post has been recently edited....

3. First of all, as I have said and referenced with a link to one of my own guides, True Polymorphing creatures and making Planar Bound armies is hardly a new idea in the theorycrafting sphere ( Unlike Tiny Servants and Animal Shapes at the time of my posting ), so to call it "Max's idea trumping mine hard", quite arrogant on it's own right. And I must say that requiring ( You can only take one long rest in 24 hours ) up to 83 days to reach the full strength of your army is quite the drawback, and that 83 or 166 Eagles/Quez in several hours has distinct utility, and was therefore worth posting.

So now the goalpost has been moved to "a powerful Nycaloth ally every day". 83 days of adventuring in which you spend your 9th level slot, by the way, rather than situational utility, and at this point you've basically just emphasized the wonders of Planar Binding and True Polymorphing ( The most broken spell in the game. Did you know that RAW you can just true polymorph a planet-sized rock and destroy entire worlds? ), to which I say - Yes, I know about those. Yes, I know about Nycaloths and more than Nycaloths too, I have an entry for them in the guide. ( Last edit months ago, check it out ).

That's fantastic. Still think that 83 Eagles in several hours has it's own uses.


V = Roman numeral 5, to denote casting it out of a 5th level spell slot to get 16 animals instead of 8.



Regardless of the CR, there's not much tactical difference between them.



Wait... then why did you necro the thread to take my response to Davrix so personally? You're right, six months ago I was apparently responding to Davrix, not you, but then you necro'ed the thread in post #81 to defend Davrix's suggestion...

Anyway, hopefully we're all agreed now that it's not worth it for only 20 Giant Eagles and we can move on. I apologize for confusing you with Davrix.



Okay. I don't see anything unique about it, but okay. If you're just pointing out one potential technique, then I agree, it's a nice tool to have in your toolkit and worth knowing about. It's sort of like abusing Animate Dead + Animal Shapes, but without the requirement for a bunch of corpses beforehand. Personally I wouldn't play an elven spellcaster purely for the sake of maybe someday enabling this combo, so I'd never reach the theoretical limit of 83 Tiny Servants, more likely just 50 or so max (from 3rd-8th level spell slots) but yes, being able to pull out a bunch of pocket change, spend fifteen minutes enchanting it and turning it into a platoon of flying dinosaurs or whatever, and then ordering them to wipe out a hobgoblin outpost while you go to bed... it's kind of entertaining.

In terms of power it's probably not as good as True Polymorphing your Simulacrum into a Demi-lich and telling it to go wipe out those hobgoblins, but power isn't everything. Killing hobgoblins with pocket-change dinosaurs is probably more amusing, and a good tactic actually for a bad guy NPC to use against mid-level PCs.

So my inner evil DM thanks you for inspiring some thoughts on what to do to cause PCs grief. "Suddenly the inn doors begin shaking and you hear gigantic cawing sounds, and something starts trying to hammer its way in through the roof! It's an army of dinosaurs! [then when they kill one] As you slay the beast, it transforms into a paper envelope with some equations scrawled on on the back! The envelope staggers briefly on its tiny hands and legs, then seems to steady itself and launches itself ferociously at your head, trying to papercut your to death! BTW there are still dinosaurs attacking you too." I think this would be quite funny.

I was not very active for a while and was reviewing it, and I didn't 'necro' it because of you but rather because of both you and Unoriginal. Because I saw you incorrectly counting the slots and then the conclusion and Unoriginal defaming me as a result, and felt that things needed to be set straight.

And yes, It's kind of like Animate Dead without the recurring 83 corpses part ( when your minions fall in the battlefield ). Also bonus action command of 120 feet instead of 60 in case you're planning on getting up close and personal. And you play Elven Casters for 4 hour long rest Trance when it comes to Pretty much anything, including all the undead army combos out there. It's considered one of the best features on it's own right.

And definitely not the same as the Demilich, because a single good Dispel Magic, retreats, powerful spell or magical strikes, lots of variables. I'm happy you see the entertainment value, personally I can also plenty of utility value too, when it comes to having 83 huge flying creatures with 80 fleet flying speed just conjured up on the spot wherever you are after a brief rest.

[Renduaz]

Incidentally, just to prove that I'm not the only one who has math typos related to 20 Eagles...



Four slots for 20 servants actually. Not twenty as I apparently typed six months ago, not five as Renduaz typed yesterday, but four.

Apparently 20 is a really hard number to do division correctly on. :-)

Yeah, was somewhat thrown off by 2 extra servants for each level above 3rd part. so 1 -> 3 -> 5 for 5th level slot, while I accidentally registered 3 as 2. But hey, I still win the 'closest to mark' contest by a long shot, right? Heh.

[Derpaligtr]

Looks interesting, had something like that in mind too. But several major drawbacks - He needs to personally gather all those flying snakes from somewhere, pen them, then go ahead with it. Meanwhile Tiny Servant applies to any tiny object. Must've visited the location he's sending them to, and a recepient's general description. Can't dictate the route of his fleet, can't dictate their strategy or actions when they arrive either. And they're all very low CR. On the other hand, Pros are that it's functional at very low levels too with minimal expenditure. Yet still highly possible that his targets just barricade themselves somewhere or flee and the beasts disperse.

Meanwhile the Animal Shapes armadas, CR 2-4, personally commanded all at once with a bonus action throughout their duration ( And follow any order until the task is completed ), while even maintaining a link from afar to bypass 120 feet restriction by ordering them through something like Rary's Telepathic Bond ( Ritual ) for every squad. You can even get visuals from the battlefield from an "Observer Unit" with Telepathy. And you have an infinity of Tiny Objects to transform at any place and any time, don't need to collect 100 exotic beasts every time anew, which would probably prove quite the daunting if at all possible at those levels, depending on how many extremely exotic beasts you have access to.

So I guess 1v1, mine will definitely win ( To no surprise, since you're a level 20 Spellcaster too ), but a bunch of low-level casters could launch disorganized pestilences on places. On the other hand the Animal Servants are a coordinated elite strike team.

I would say that the cold war started when someone used the snake tsunami to kill off an arrogant/lazy level 20 wizard. After that, they used it to keep anyone from gaining too much power.


So, now armed with "The Heart of the Swarm" a caster if fighting back with threats of using it again. Because they have to use it at least once...

But it isn't like they are just threatening each other individually.

Both of these abilities are city killers! That many snakes versus a city of commoners? That many tiny servants versus commoners?

You could wreck a nation with one shot to their production area.

So now you have a setting where two opposing nations ran by casters are at a stale mate. Even if they killed each other is a duel, their underlings could still wipe out a city and cripple a nation.

The party could be agents of one nation sent to spy on the other nation, could be a party of "snake charmers" (people who take care of, find, or keep control of snakes before they're used), or whatever else.

I didn't mean a 1v1 of the two shenanigans, just that this sort of setting would be awesome and quite different than the tones D&D puts out there.

[MaxWilson]

I was not very active for a while and was reviewing it, and I didn't 'necro' it because of you but rather because of both you and Unoriginal. Because I saw you incorrectly counting the slots and then the conclusion and Unoriginal defaming me as a result, and felt that things needed to be set straight.

Okay. I have Unoriginal on ignore so I often don't see his posts at all. I apologize if something I said inadvertently contributed to something rude that was said by someone else, and I apologize again for confusing you with Davrix in my response.

Anyway, at least we've got it all straightened out now that none of us can correctly count the slots for 20 Tiny Servants. :) And at least now I know what point you're trying to make: sharing a neat trick that might occasionally be useful to some spellcasters. And yes, it's good to know about, so thanks for that.


And yes, It's kind of like Animate Dead without the recurring 83 corpses part ( when your minions fall in the battlefield ). Also bonus action command of 120 feet instead of 60 in case you're planning on getting up close and personal.

Getting up close and personal seems like a poor idea to me when you've invested so much effort in a concentration spell.


And you play Elven Casters for 4 hour long rest Trance when it comes to Pretty much anything, including all the undead army combos out there. It's considered one of the best features on it's own right.

Meh. You can still only rest once in 24 hours, which in practice is going to be every night, so it's not really a boost to undead armies or Planar Bound armies at all. (And the most powerful undead army is 300 or so Necromancer-supercharged wights under permanent Geas and year-and-a-day Mass Suggestion. It's not as powerful as an army of Planar Bound Nycaloths/etc. but it's far more powerful than a bunch of skeleton archers.) It does allow you to have Foresight active "for free" every morning in case you want to do some morning dungeon delving, but... still kind of niche, and not usually worth the opportunity cost IMO.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.



And definitely not the same as the Demilich, because a single good Dispel Magic, retreats, powerful spell or magical strikes, lots of variables. I'm happy you see the entertainment value, personally I can also plenty of utility value too, when it comes to having 83 huge flying creatures with 80 fleet flying speed just conjured up on the spot wherever you are after a brief rest.

Actually both strategies are quite vulnerable to Dispel Magic.


Choose one object, creature, or magic effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. If the spell is 4th level or higher, make a check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.

If someone successfully casts Dispel Magic on one of your Giant Eagles, Animal Shapes ends (and so does the Tiny Objects spell that created it). All of your eagles turn back into pocket change, although most of them retain their Tiny Servant arms and legs (since they were created by different Tiny Objects spells).

Likewise, if someone successfully casts Dispel Magic on the demi-lich, True Polymorph and Simulacrum both end, and the simulacrum vanishes.

In either case, Dispel Magic is something you really, really want to avoid. (Which BTW is one of the things that makes Nycaloths such a pleasing minion: at-will Dispel Magic comes in handy, not to mention their other at-will spells.)

Note further that it's not "83 objects conjured up on the spot whenever you have a brief rest." It is "83 objects conjured up on the spot whenever have not done any nontrivial spellcasting since last night." How likely is [I]that to happen in any scenario where you didn't have time to prepare a squad of Nycaloths (or whatever)? More likely it will be 30 or 40 at most, like a Druid who spends his remaining spell slots on Goodberries before going to bed, except you're generating a bunch of pocket change dinosaur assassins.

[MaxWilson]

I would say that the cold war started when someone used the snake tsunami to kill off an arrogant/lazy level 20 wizard. After that, they used it to keep anyone from gaining too much power.


So, now armed with "The Heart of the Swarm" a caster if fighting back with threats of using it again. Because they have to use it at least once...

But it isn't like they are just threatening each other individually.

Both of these abilities are city killers! That many snakes versus a city of commoners? That many tiny servants versus commoners?

You could wreck a nation with one shot to their production area.

So now you have a setting where two opposing nations ran by casters are at a stale mate. Even if they killed each other is a duel, their underlings could still wipe out a city and cripple a nation.

The party could be agents of one nation sent to spy on the other nation, could be a party of "snake charmers" (people who take care of, find, or keep control of snakes before they're used), or whatever else.

I didn't mean a 1v1 of the two shenanigans, just that this sort of setting would be awesome and quite different than the tones D&D puts out there.

I see two problems with these claims:

(1) A 20th level wizard can easily evade hundreds of snakes by Teleporting away or casting a Fly spell or Etherealness or whatever. A 20th level wizard who doesn't have some form of combat mobility on tap deserves what he gets and probably won't reach 20th level in the first place.

(2) You can't kill a whole city with Animal Messenger + "that many snakes" unless you have "that many snakes" in the first place. And you can't just handwave acquiring them, since that is actually the hard part.

(3) The commoners can fight back against "That many tiny servants" by killing the wizard after all of his Tiny Servants expire, four hours after he wakes up in the morning. At that time of morning he is already down his most important spell slot (9th level) and is vulnerable. One good dose of drow sleep poison, for instance, and then if he fails his save and falls asleep you can drown him. (Yes, yes, he could/should have a Clone, but the point is that the Tiny Servants don't make the commoner's job of fighting the Evil Overlord much harder.)

[Unoriginal]

Even against a city of commoners, 83 Tiny Servants aren't going to do much. Maybe kill a few before the guards or thre time their numbers in a mob shows up.

Even if they're turned into flying animals by Animal Shape, it's still 83 versus a city.

[MaxWilson]

Even against a city of commoners, 83 Tiny Servants aren't going to do much. Maybe kill a few before the guards or thre time their numbers in a mob shows up.

Even if they're turned into flying animals by Animal Shape, it's still 83 versus a city.

It's hard to tell what you mean by "a few" but I think you may be underestimating the value of surprise and how many people they would kill before the city concentrated its forces against them. I agree that they're not going to wipe out tens or hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, but if a platoon of murderous murdering anythings show up out of nowhere and start killing people, they're going to inflict a lot of damage, especially if they're fast. A flock of 80+ Quetzalcoatluses could easily murder half of the people in a big city park (call it 400 out of 800 people) in a matter of minutes, and most of that time would be spent Dashing around looking for a new victim. And it would take at least several minutes for enough guards to concentrate to kill them all, and then the guards would take casualties too.

Admittedly D&D does tend to have a more dangerous ecology, so guards might be more common in fantasy than in New York, but even if there are two dozen guards at the city park--which is at the high end of what I'd expect fantasy cities to deploy on a standing basis--each guard dies to a single hit, and there's four times as many dinosaurs as guards, so they're not going to make a dent in the dinosaur flock before they die, and then all the civilians still die anyway. It wouldn't surprise me if it took an hour or more after that to concentrate the 200-300 guards you'd want before counterattacking. (Yes, you could do it with less than that by proper use of tactics--but will you have those tactics ready in less than an hour? In the middle of suburbia? Maybe, maybe not.)

It could easily be the worst thing to happen to the city all year, as bad as 9/11 was for New York City.

[Unoriginal]

It's hard to tell what you mean by "a few" but I think you may be underestimating the value of surprise and how many people they would kill before the city concentrated its forces against them. I agree that they're not going to wipe out tens or hundreds of thousands of people in a major city, but if a platoon of murderous murdering anythings show up out of nowhere and start killing people, they're going to inflict a lot of damage, especially if they're fast. A flock of 80+ Quetzalcoatluses could easily murder half of the people in a big city park (call it 400 out of 800 people) in a matter of minutes, and most of that time would be spent Dashing around looking for a new victim. And it would take at least several minutes for enough guards to concentrate to kill them all, and then the guards would take casualties too.

Admittedly D&D does tend to have a more dangerous ecology, so guards might be more common in fantasy than in New York, but even if there are two dozen guards at the city park--which is at the high end of what I'd expect fantasy cities to deploy on a standing basis--each guard dies to a single hit, and there's four times as many dinosaurs as guards, so they're not going to make a dent in the dinosaur flock before they die, and then all the civilians still die anyway. It wouldn't surprise me if it took an hour or more after that to concentrate the 200-300 guards you'd want before counterattacking. (Yes, you could do it with less than that by proper use of tactics--but will you have those tactics ready in less than an hour? In the middle of suburbia? Maybe, maybe not.)

It could easily be the worst thing to happen to the city all year, as bad as 9/11 was for New York City.

I said the Tiny Servants, as in without the Animal Shape, weren't going to kill more than a few before getting handled (though it's true if they pick their moment and place right they could do considerable damage)


If they're transformed into flying dinos, sure, I agree with you, they'll be much formidable. And kill much more people before getting handled.

Still never going to destroy a city by themselves, on the other hand.

[Derpaligtr]

I see two problems with these claims:

(1) A 20th level wizard can easily evade hundreds of snakes by Teleporting away or casting a Fly spell or Etherealness or whatever. A 20th level wizard who doesn't have some form of combat mobility on tap deserves what he gets and probably won't reach 20th level in the first place.

(2) You can't kill a whole city with Animal Messenger + "that many snakes" unless you have "that many snakes" in the first place. And you can't just handwave acquiring them, since that is actually the hard part.

(3) The commoners can fight back against "That many tiny servants" by killing the wizard after all of his Tiny Servants expire, four hours after he wakes up in the morning. At that time of morning he is already down his most important spell slot (9th level) and is vulnerable. One good dose of drow sleep poison, for instance, and then if he fails his save and falls asleep you can drown him. (Yes, yes, he could/should have a Clone, but the point is that the Tiny Servants don't make the commoner's job of fighting the Evil Overlord much harder.)

It doesn't have to make sense to work. Just because a hypothetical perfect wizard would do X, doesn't mean the arrogant and lazy wizard (got fat and happy) didn't do Y.

You can explain anything in the background, grow a sense of narrative.

Characters within a world aren't perfect.

=====


How these two spells are city killers mostly revolves around the fact that you can strategically target specific individuals. Send some at the commoners, sure, but also target key figures and make the guards stretch thin. Once the guard is stretched thin, you can target the command posts specifically in a second wave.

These spells work better in a group of multiple people who can do the same thing.

[MaxWilson]

I said the Tiny Servants, as in without the Animal Shape, weren't going to kill more than a few before getting handled (though it's true if they pick their moment and place right they could do considerable damage)

If they're transformed into flying dinos, sure, I agree with you, they'll be much formidable. And kill much more people before getting handled.

Still never going to destroy a city by themselves, on the other hand.

Okay, I understand now and I agree. The big difference is mobility. 83 Tiny Servants will kill a few people at first, and then after that they will only kill anyone too old and feeble to flee.

Definitely not going to destroy a city.