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View Full Version : 5e-- Low Magic Overhaul (Two new classes and one new subclasses included!)



Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-26, 08:23 PM
Somewhat inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542985-A-rennisance-campaign-has-anyone-done-it), and quite a few others I've seen since the edition came out... there's a frequent desire to play lower magic games with the familiar D&D base, I think. Not no magic, necessarily, but more of a slow, swords-and-sorcery sort of feel than the current "free magic!" paradigm. 5e is... less bad at that than previous editions, since magic isn't quite as baked into the baseline assumptions, but it's still not great. Mostly because, well... there are only three classes without spellcasting, and even then some of the subclasses add it back in. And a couple of the races have magic. So... I started off collecting nonmagic options, then found myself trying to extend things with houserules. Then realized I was writing a brand new Bard/Cleric/Paladin mashup class, and one or two other new subclasses, so... yeah. Things got a little out of hand, perhaps, but here's hoping this is a good resource!

A note on colors: Red text is used to mark things that have been removed altogether. Blue for houserules. Purple text is used to note things with slow, ritualistic sorts of magic, with an emphasis on preparation and creepiness-- what fits in my minds for a swords-and-sorcery type setting.

Races


Dwarf: Unchanged
Elves: High Elves replace their Wizard cantrip with the ability to cast a single level 1 Wizard ritual from memory. Drow can keep their racial magic, if you want, since that's pretty baked in the flavor; alternately, you could probably drop both it and Sunlight Sensitivity and give them the ability to hide when only lightly obscured by low light.
Halflings: Unchanged
Humans: Unchanged
Dragonborn: Three options, depending: you could get rid of them as being too linked to magic-y stuff, you could keep them--breath weapon and all-- since their power is racial, or you could swap their breath weapon for the (non-ASI) bonuses of Dragon Fear or Dragon Hide in Xanathar's. (The former turns your breath weapon into a 30ft-radius-selective-save-or-become-Frightened effect, the latter gives you 13+Dex unarmored AC and retractable claws dealing 1d4+Str).
Gnomes: Gnome Cunning might as well extend to all mental saves, since non-magic ones aren't that common; Forest Gnomes should swap Natural Illusionist for Proficiency in either Nature or Deception.
Half-Elves: Unchanged
Half-Orcs: Unchanged
Tieflings: Remove for being too overtly magical
Aarakocra (EEPC): Unchanged (though not recommended, since flight will probably be even harder to get)
Genasi (EEPC): Remove for being too overtly magical.
Goliath (EEPC, VGtM): Unchanged
Aasimar (VGtM): Removed for being too overtly magical
Firbolg (VGtM): Replace Firbolg Magic with Proficiency with Disguise kits, and the ability to disguise themselves without needing a kit on hand. Hidden Step changes to gaining Advantage on one Stealth check per short rest.
Kenku (VGtM): Unchanged
Lizardfolk (VGtM): Unchanged
Tabaxi (VGtM): Unchanged
Triton (VGtM): Replace Control Air and Water with Proficiency in tridents and Athletics, and the ability to add their Strength modifier to the number of feet they cover when jumping (as their bodies are adapted to the weight of water).
Bugbear (VGtM): Unchanged
Goblin (VGtM): Unchanged
Hobgoblin (VGtM): Unchanged
Kobold (VGtM): Unchanged
Orc (VGtM): Unchanged
Yuan-Ti (VGtM): Like the Drow, this is I think one of the few times the racial magic can be kept--drop the components from the spells and just have them be weird snake-person biology. (Plus, low-magic means Magic Resistance won't be so overpowered)



Classes

Barbarian

Path of the Berserker: Unchanged
Path of the Totem Warrior: Unchanged. (No magic: The 6th level and 14th level Eagle Aspect abilities are removed, Spirit Seeker is replaced by Proficiency and Expertise in Handle Animal, and Spirit Walker by the ability to talk to beasts.)
Path of the Battlerager (SCAG): Unchanged
Path of the Ancestral Guardian (XGtE): There are no supernatural manifestations of the spirits. Spirit Shield only works with adjacent targets, but uses d10s instead of d8s, and Consult the Spirits must be cast as a ritual.
Path of the Storm Herald (XGtE): Removed for being too overtly magical.


Bard
The Bard is removed, and gets subsumed by the new Warlord and (to a lesser extent) the Rogue, particularly the Mastermind or Swashbuckler.

Cleric
The Cleric is removed, replaced by the new Warlord, Scholar, and anyone with Ritual Caster (Cleric).

Druid
The Druid is replaced by the Ranger, particularly the new Skinwalker archetype. Or anyone with Ritual Caster (Druid).

Fighter

Champion: Should perhaps be changed, but doesn’t need to be for these purposes.
Battle Master: Unchanged
Eldritch Knight: Removed for being too overtly magical.
Purple Dragon Knight (SCAG): Unchanged
Arcane Archer (XGtE): All effects refluffed as alchemical, rather than magical. Arcane Archer Lore grants proficiency and expertise in in Alchemist’s Supplies and Poisoner’s Kits. You must declare you are firing an Arcane Shot before making your attack roll, but you may use Int mod (minimum 1) arrows/short rest. (You are assumed to have made the appropriate arrows during your previous rest; if you want more detail, you can have the player prepare their Int mod arrows individually, like a 3.5 caster preparing spells).
Cavalier (XGtE): Unchanged
Samurai (XGtE): Unchanged


Monk

Way of the Open Hand: Unchanged
Way of Shadow: Removed for being too overtly magical
Way of the Four Elements: Removed for being too overtly magical.
Way of the Long Death (SCAG): Unchanged
Way of the Sun Soul (SCAG, XGtE): Removed for being too overtly magical.
Way of the Drunken Master (XGtE): Unchanged
Way of the Kensei (XGtE): Unchanged


Paladin
The Paladin is removed, and gets subsumed by the new Warlord and the Fighter.
I'd have loved to keep this, like I did the Ranger, but... while both are hybrid classes, the Ranger still has a lot of skill-type stuff left over, and manages to fall between the Fighter and the Rogue with its own distinct identity. The Paladin...when you pull out the flashy divine power, all you've got left are "heavy armor warrior" and "inspiring leader," the former of which is the Fighter and the latter of which I'd kind of decided to give to the Priest. I guess I could maybe make them into a different sort of inspire

Ranger
The base Ranger is replaced with the Spell-Less Ranger (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes), but with the following maneuvers to go with their Superiority dice:

Animal Instincts: when making an Athletics, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival check, you may expend a die to boost the check. Add half the number rolled (round up) to your check, after making the check but before learning if it was successful.
Master Predator: When making a weapon attack against a creature, you may expend a die and add it to your attack, before or after the attack is rolled but before learning if it was successful.
Evasive Prey: If you are hit by an attack while wearing light or medium armor, you can expend one die as a reaction and add it to your AC. If the attack still hits, you take half damage.
Hunter’s Mark: If you strike a target with a weapon attack, you may expend a die and add the result to all damage you make against that target for the remainder of the encounter.

They also gain a new Wild Shape-y subclass, the Skinshifter. Otherwise...

Hunter: Unchanged
Beast Master: Should perhaps be changed, but doesn’t need to be for these purposes.
Gloom Stalker (XGtE): No bonus spells for obvious reasons, but is strong enough to survive elsewise.
Horizon Walker (XGtE): Removed for being too overtly magical and too tied to magical ideas.
Monster Slayer (XGtE): No bonus spells for obvious reasons. Magic-User’s Nemesis works with any of a monster’s special (ie, non-weapon) attacks.
Skinwalker: New, see below


Rogue
Rogues work normally

Thief: Use Magic Device is replaced by Master Athlete: While taking the Dash action, you may ignore difficult terrain, run up walls, balance on thin ropes, swing from chandeliers, and so on, and automatically succeed on Athletics and Acrobatics checks related to your movement with a DC of 20 or less
Assassin: Unchanged
Arcane Trickster: Removed for being too overtly magical.
Inquisitive (XGtE): Unchanged
Mastermind (SCAG, XGtE): Unchanged
Swashbuckler (SCAG, XGtE): Unchanged
Scout (XGtE): Unchanged
Surgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564606-Rogue-Subclass-the-Surgeon): A homebrew mundane healer.


Sorcerer
The Sorcerer is removed.

Warlock
The Warlock is removed, and gets subsumed by the new Scholar, or anyone with Ritual Caster (Warlock).

Wizard
The Wizard is removed, and gets subsumed by the new Scholar, or anyone with Ritual Caster (Wizard). Or the Artificer (UA) (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/artificer) if you can stand it.

-----------------------------------

New Base Class: The Warlord

HIT POINTS:
Hit Dice: 1d8 per Warlord level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per Warlord level

PROFICIENCIES:
Armor: Light and medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons.
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Wisdom, Charisma
Skills: Choose two from Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, Performance, and Religion

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons
• (a) five javelins or (b) any simple melee weapon
• (a) a priest’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack
• Chain mail



Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features


1st
+2
Inspiration (d6)


2nd
+2
Rallying Cry


3rd
+2
Leadership Style


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement


5th
+3
Inspiration (d8), Font of Inspiration


6th
+3
Style Feature


7th
+3
Countercharm


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement


9th
+4
Aura of Protection


10th
+4
Inspiration (d10)


11th
+4
Style Feature


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement


13th
+5
Greater Rallying Cry


14th
+5
Tactical Rush


15th
+5
Inspiration (d12)


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement


17th
+6
Tactical Strike


18th
+6
Style Feature


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement


20th
+6
Superior Inspiration



Inspiration: As Bardic Inspiration, except that your number of dice is equal to your class level and refreshes on a short rest from level one.

Rallying Cry: Beginning at 2nd level, you may exhort your allies to greater efforts. As a bonus action, you may expend an Inspiration die to grant an ally within 60ft temporary hit points equal to your Warlord level plus your Charisma modifier.

Font of Inspiration: Once/day as a bonus action, recover a number of expended Inspiration dice equal to your Charisma modifier.

Countercharm: As the Bard

Aura of Protection: As the Paladin

Greater Rallying Cry: Beginning at 13th level, your Rallying Cry affects any number of allies within 60ft.

Tactical Rush: Beginning at 14th level, allies affected by your Rallying Cry may also move up to their speed as a reaction, without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Tactical Strike: Beginning at 17th level, allies affected by your Rallying Cry may make make a single weapon attack, or cast a cantrip, as a reaction.

Superior Inspiration: As the Bard

----------------------------

Cleric Style

Priestly Training: You gain Proficiency in Religion, if you did not already have it, and may add twice your Proficiency bonus to Religion checks. You also gain proficiency in all martial weapons.

Combat Inspiration: As the Valor Bard feature

Blessed Rebuke: As a bonus action, you may expend an Inspiration die to use Turn Undead, as the Cleric's Channel Divinity feature. In addition, good-aligned Warlords also affect Fiends, and Evil-aligned Warlords also affect Celestials. Neutral-aligned Warlords must choose when they first get this feature.

Extra Attack: Beginning at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Destroy Undead: As the Cleric feature, but affecting all targets currently being Rebuked.

Aspect of Gods: Beginning at 11th level, you may use a bonus action to channel the majesty of your god. For one minute, you attacks deal bonus damage equal to your Charisma modifier, and you may use your Blessed Rebuke on all hostile targets.

Divine Wrath: Beginning at 18th level, you may use your Blessed Rebuke against a single target without expending one of your normal uses. If a foe fails their save against your Blessed Rebuke, they take psychic damage equal to your Priest level.

Paladin Style

Combat Training: You gain Proficiency in all martial weapons and heavy armor and +1 hit point per Priest level.

Fighting Style: As the Fighter class feature.

Combat Flourish: As the Bard's College of Swords feature, but without the speed boost, and with the following addition:
Shielding Flourish: Roll your Inspiration die and add the value to the weapon damage you just dealt the target, and one-half that value to the AC and Dexterity saves of all adjacent allies until the start of your next turn. (Or until they move away from you).
(For those without Xanathar's, when you hit with an attack, you can add an inspiration die to the damage and to your AC for a turn, deal that much damage to adjacent targets, or push the target a short distance)

Extra Attack: Beginning at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Master’s Flourish: Beginning at 11th level, whenever you use a Flourish option you may roll a d6 and use it instead of expending an Inspiration die.

Avatar of Battle: Beginning at 18th level, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons.

Bard Style

Musical Training: At 3rd level, you gain Proficiency in Performance and two musical instruments, if you did not already have it, and may add twice your Proficiency bonus to those checks. You also gain proficiency with rapiers, whips, and hand crossbows.

Cutting Words: As the Lore Bard feature.

Words of Fear and Glory: Beginning at 3rd level, you have learned how to use your words and music to plant insidious ideas in the heads of listeners. If you speak or perform for at least 1 minute, you may choose a number of humanoids within 60ft who were there for the full duration, up to a number equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one).

Each target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or be either charmed or frighted of you (your choice) for one hour. If you or your allies attack the target or one of its visibile allies, the effect ends and the target cannot be affected again for one day. If they are still affected at the end of the hour, they must make a second Charisma save; if they fail again, the duration of the effect increases to one day. Once you have used this ability, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.


Piercing Command: At 6th level, you may cast Command, as the spell, at will. If you expend an Inspiration dice as part of the process, you may roll it and affect one-half its value in additional targets. The DC for this ability is equal to 8+Proficiency+Cha modifier.

Insidious Command: At 11th level, you may expend an Inspiration die to cast Suggestion or Charm Monster, as the spells, affecting up to three targets. You do not need to concentrate on these spells, and only need to provide the verbal component. The DC for this ability is equal to 8+Proficiency+Cha modifier.

Unshakable Command: At 18th level, once per day you may cast Geas or Dominate Monster on a target. You do not need to concentrate on these spells, and only need to provide the verbal component. The DC for this ability is equal to 8+Proficiency+Cha modifier.


New base class: The Scholar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543633-New-base-Clase-The-Scholar)

New Ranger Subclass: The Skinwalker

Skinhunter: Beginning at 3rd level, you learn the secrets of tapping into the powers and abilities of animals. After killing a Beast, you may specially preserve part of their body, a process which takes 10 minutes. Preserved parts may also be purchased for 1-10 gold, depending on the rarity of the animal. Once preserved, you can consume that body part as an action in order to assume some of that creature's powers. You may gain any one ability on the following list which is also possessed by the animal you consumed:

Natural Attacks (Requirements: none): Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 damage and have the finesse quality. Even if you do not have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, you can make an attack with a natural weapon as a bonus action and add your ability modifier to the damage.
Special Senses (Requirements: Any animal with special senses): You gain any of the following senses which the consumed animal also possessed: Darkvision, any Keen ____ ability.
Alternate Movement (Requirements: Any animal with a special movement): You gain one special movement mode normally possessed by the animal: a climb speed equal to your move speed, a swim speed equal to your move speed, a 10ft burrow speed, or a 10ft bonus to your base land speed (if the animal has a base speed of 40ft or higher).
Pounce (Requirements: The Pounce, Charge, Trampling Charge ability): If you move at least 20ft straight towards a target and hit with a melee attack, that creature takes an additional 1d8 damage and must make a Strength save (DC 8+Proficiency+Wis) or be knocked prone.
Animalistic Leaping (Requirement: any beast with the Standing Leap or Running Leap ability): You may jump up to 30ft as a long jump or 15ft as a high jump, with or without a running start.
Natural Armor (Requirements: Any animal whose AC entry specifies natural armor): When you aren't wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. When wearing armor, you may either use that value, or your normal armor bonus +1.
Constrict (Requirement: any snake or octopus: If you hit with an unarmed strike, you may attempt to start a grapple as a bonus action. Once you have grappled a target, they are restrained, and you may use your reaction to deal 1d8+Str damage to them.
Rampage (Requirement: Hyena): If you reduce a creature to zero hit points, you may take a bonus action to move up to half your speed and make a melee attack.
Poison ((Requirements: Any animal with the Sting ability, or a natural weapon capable of dealing poison damage): Your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 damage, and any target struck must make a Constitution save (DC 8+Prof+Wis) or take an additional 2d6 poison damage or gain the Poisoned condition for 1 minute.
Webs (Requirement: any spider): Once per minute, you may make a ranged weapon attack against a creature within 30ft. If you hit, they are restrained by the webbing until they succeed on a Strength save as an action to escape.
Powerful Build (Requirement: any animal larger than you, or with the Beast of Burden ability): You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. You have Advantage on Strength checks.
Mimicry (Requirements: Raven or parrot): You can mimic sounds you have heard, including voices. A creature that hears the sounds you make can tell they are imitations with a successful Wisdom (Insight) check, with a DC of 8+Prof+Wis.

Powers last for one hour once acquired, and you may use this ability a number of times per Short Rest equal to your Wisdom modifier. You may use it again before the first power has worn off; additional uses can grant new powers, but not the same one twice. For example, if you were to eat a bit of wolf one round to gain Natural Attacks, you could eat a bit of snake next round to gain Poison-- or even another bit of wolf to get Pounce.

Skinwalker: Beginning at 7th level, you gain the ability to assume the forms of animals. This ability works as a Moon Druid’s Wild Shape, including the improved CR limits, but with the following changes: Assuming an alternate form requires a fresh or preserved pelt of the new form and takes one hour, but may be done any number of times per day. Your new form shares hit points and hit dice with your base form, and remains in place until you choose to shuck it as an action. You may talk while in your new form, though your words are garbled enough to impose Disadvantage on any checks requiring precise or persuasive speech.

Greater Skinhunter: Beginning at 11th level, you can gain greater benefits from your Skinhunter ability.

Multiattack (Requirement: Multiattack): Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 damage and have the finesse quality. As an action, you may make three unarmed strikes. This counts as an attack action for the purposes of two-weapon fighting and similar abilities, but does not stack with Extra Attack.
Blindsight (Requirement: Blindsight): You gain blindsight out to 30ft.
Pack Tactics ((Requirement: Pack Tactics): You have advantages on attack rolls against a creature if one of your allies is adjacent to it.
Fly Speed (Requirement: Fly speed): You grow wings and gain a fly speed equal to your walk speed.
Blood Frenzy (Requirement: Any shark or quipper): You have advantage on unarmed strikes against a target that doesn't have all its hit points.


Greater Skinshift: Beginning at 14th level, you may skinshift into Humanoids and Giants, though you must obey the normal limits on your new form’s Challenge Rating. If a Humanoid or Giant form is the same size as your original one, you may keep your equipment.



Feats

The magic feats (Elemental Adept, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, War Caster, Svirfneblin Magic (EEPC), Drow high Magic (XGtE), Fade Away (XGtE), Fey Teleportation (XGtE), Flames of Phlegethos (XGtE), and Wood Elf Magic (XGtE) need to go. Everything else is fine with no adaptation.

For a no-magic campaign, Ritual Caster needs to go too.

(Healer, Inspiring Leader, Ritual Caster, and possibly even Durable become much more appealing, I note).


Rituals

New Rituals: The following spells gain the Ritual tag

1st
Create or Destroy Water

2nd
Darkvision
Locate Object
Nystrul’s Magic Aura
Rope Trick
Lesser Restoration

3rd
Clairvoyance
Create Food and Water
Nondetection
Plant Growth (8-hour version only)
Remove Curse
Sending
Speak With Dead
Speak With Plants
Tongues

4th
Arcane Eye
Leomund’s Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum

5th
Awaken
Dream
Greater Restoration
Hallow
Raise Dead
Scrying
Legend Lore

6th
Create Homunculus
Find the Path
Guards and Wards
Move Earth
Programmed Illusion

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-26, 08:25 PM
(Reserving this one just in case, but post away!)

Nifft
2017-11-26, 09:08 PM
This might be a good setting for the Warlord to make a comeback -- with short-rest uses of Not Healing Word ("Invigorating Command"), and some other stolen Bard features like Not Bardic Inspiration ("Inspiring Command"), and some Not Cutting Words ("Defensive Command"), and a chunk of Not Song of Rest ("Veteran's Advice"). Since Paladin is gone, too, you could throw in Not Aura of Protection ("Bold Leadership") and Not Aura of Courage ("Fearless Leadership").

Herbalism Kit proficiency (to make healing potions) might be about as important as the Healer feat.


High Elf keeping its one Cantrip -- and being basically the only at-will combat magic users in the game -- seems okay to me. Without innate magic, they've lost a major reason for existing. I'd rather see High Elf removed entirely than become just a pointy-eared human. Even with that one Cantrip, though, they've still got reason to care about weapons & skills.

Same deal with Forest Gnome. I'd rather drop the race than remove its one cool thing. A low-magic world nerfs the racial saving throw advantages; having one cantrip would compensate for that.

Morphic tide
2017-11-26, 10:09 PM
Hmm... Rather than outright overhauling (almost) everything, you could have focused on low magic tolerant additional base classes and subclasses, introducing a decent alchemy system and a proper ritual magic subsystem to substitute for the apparent needs for magic among 5e parties.

This is mostly because I view setting-specific mechnical changes/replacements as too much of a change. Adding new things to fit a setting is less of an upset, because people who are used to existing Rangers suddenly seeing the class completely warped to cut out overt magic can be driven out of the setting because they play a Ranger for what it is normally.

Both the alchemy and ritual magic subsystems would probably work best when referring to spells, essentially acting as alternative forms of spellcasting like Warlock Pact Magic, but could focus on different mechanical niches that are kinda absent.

In a high-magic world, the Ritual user's niche is that they never actually run out of magic and can have different Concentration rules. Any direct combat use would require runes of some description, possibly being an automatic part of the subsystem to give a degree of in-combat magic use to make it partially encounter-based with logical reasons, but that gives some room for differentiating the classes with how they use magic.

The Gish/hybrid could have it on their weapon(s) or armor, getting some passive bonuses for having rituals ready and perhaps a cooldown refresh to rituals(WoW Death Knight modeling, probably as a subclass to keep low-magic compatibility), while the offensive/wizardly caster would be able to play contingency chess by having runes go off by surrounding events. For low-magic compatibility, I'd have it increase the casting time to enable the behavior in low-magic circumstances and restrict how one can have it go off by giving a specific list of conditions you can set. And limit the number of such things able to be ready at once.

In particular, you could have each spell level be given a listed amount of time to perform the ritual for, possibly with 1-3 being minutes, 4-6 being tens of minutes or and 7-9 being hours or large chunks of/multiple days. Sure, being able to replace sleep with casting a 9th level spell can be awesome, but that 9th level spell has to be worth an eight or nine hour cast time and do something when cast at night. You could leave out 7th-9th level spells to keep the low-magic focus of the subsystem, with high-magic subclasses giving a method of using them like Warlocks can, possibly with Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster spell slots to push the limit of Ritual level higher and use low-level spells instantly/expand your number of pre-cast rituals.

...I'll not bring up an alchemical subsystem, as I believe the Ritual subsystem I've given a bit of description for fits the thread better as a thing to do for overhauling the Priest into a more interesting class with decent use in a more typical game, as well as possibly giving a thing to do for Paladin replacement. The Rituals can be extended prayer sessions, after all.

Arkhios
2017-11-26, 11:37 PM
This might be a good setting for the Warlord to make a comeback -- with short-rest uses of Not Healing Word ("Invigorating Command"), and some other stolen Bard features like Not Bardic Inspiration ("Inspiring Command"), and some Not Cutting Words ("Defensive Command"), and a chunk of Not Song of Rest ("Veteran's Advice"). Since Paladin is gone, too, you could throw in Not Aura of Protection ("Bold Leadership") and Not Aura of Courage ("Fearless Leadership").

You mean like this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkFKKZGNe), perhaps? ;)

2D8HP
2017-11-27, 06:05 AM
I'm in awe.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-27, 11:11 AM
This might be a good setting for the Warlord to make a comeback
You mean like a Gods or War Priest?


Herbalism Kit proficiency (to make healing potions) might be about as important as the Healer feat.
Very true.


High Elf keeping its one Cantrip -- and being basically the only at-will combat magic users in the game -- seems okay to me. Without innate magic, they've lost a major reason for existing. I'd rather see High Elf removed entirely than become just a pointy-eared human. Even with that one Cantrip, though, they've still got reason to care about weapons & skills.
They weren't meant to be combat magic users, at least in my mind-- cantrips generally aren't very strong in combat anyway; with a good Dex you'd be better off using a bow until level 11ish. My impression was that they were meant represent the elves dabbling in magic, which is what the ritual represents. There are still plenty of things that make them elf-y.


Same deal with Forest Gnome. I'd rather drop the race than remove its one cool thing. A low-magic world nerfs the racial saving throw advantages; having one cantrip would compensate for that.
Good thing I changed the resistances to work on all mental saves, rather than just ones against magic, huh?


Hmm... Rather than outright overhauling (almost) everything, you could have focused on low magic tolerant additional base classes and subclasses, introducing a decent alchemy system and a proper ritual magic subsystem to substitute for the apparent needs for magic among 5e parties.

This is mostly because I view setting-specific mechnical changes/replacements as too much of a change. Adding new things to fit a setting is less of an upset, because people who are used to existing Rangers suddenly seeing the class completely warped to cut out overt magic can be driven out of the setting because they play a Ranger for what it is normally.
That's... sort of what I did, though? Or will do, once I extend the list of Ritual spells.

So I guess you and Nfft would sort of like splitting the Priest into a Bard/Paladin leader-type and a Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Warlock ritualist type? With a revised Artificer thrown in for good measure, perhaps?


I'm in awe.
Thanks!

EDIT: Thinking a bit more, splitting the more mystical stuff off from the rest of the Priest seems reasonably doable... For a Ritualist class, I can see subclasses for alchemy (I'm thinking making a few magic-item potions per day, combined with an updated form of the Artificer's alchemical bomb things), summoning (based on the Revised Ranger Beastmaster, probably, only with outsiders), and medicine (taking the battlefield medicine stuff and Int-combat stuff back from the Priest). The Druid's altered Wild Shape can be moved over to a Ranger subclass.

Arkhios
2017-11-27, 05:15 PM
Grod... About feats, what would you say about expanding the Crossbow Expert to affect firearms (as seen in DMG) as if they were crossbows?
I'm asking because these ideas align pretty well with a futuristic low magic campaign I've been running for a while, and personally I feel that firearms are in many ways "evolution" from crossbows.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-27, 05:27 PM
Grod... About feats, what would you say about expanding the Crossbow Expert to affect firearms (as seen in DMG) as if they were crossbows?
I'm asking because these ideas align pretty well with a futuristic low magic campaign I've been running for a while, and personally I feel that firearms are in many ways "evolution" from crossbows.
Makes sense to me. My typical suggestion for guns in D&D is usually "refluff crossbows" anyway, so...

(Actually, now that I think about it, a 5e version of class-based defense bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) isn't a bad idea)

Avigor
2017-11-27, 09:16 PM
Paladin: Don't forget that the Purple Dragon Knight fills both "heavy armor warrior" and "inspiring leader" at the same time; it might be worth mentioning.

Rogue and Priest: It just doesn't make sense to me for a scholar who didn't study Medicine to know how to Sneak Attack; part of me really wants to suggest there be the Rogue as normal, then a Surgeon class with Sneak Attack and the Battlefield/ Campground Medicine features from your current Priest build but no base class Inspiration (I might give it Rogue-style skill boosting abilities but only for Medicine and the Alchemy/ Herbalism kits, maybe an end-cap of "Steady Hands" that treats Sneak Attack dice rolls of less than 3 as 3 or something similar), and then a Scholar/ Priest combo class that focuses on Intelligence skills + Insight including getting Expertise in them, Ritual Magic, and Inspiration (can fluff as tactical advice or religious fervor as desired).
I'm thinking the Surgeon should have 3 archetypes, one who should focus on scalpel - I mean dagger - use and gain Blade Flourish abilities, one that becomes a Mad Alchemist with special bonuses to using alchemical items (in fact, one option here is to adapt 3.5's tanglefoot bags and thunderstones + the 3.5 tactical feat of the same name and go to town), and one who focuses on their bedside manner to develop Inspiration abilities. The Scholar/ Priest class could have a base name like "Bookworm" (or something more respectful if you don't want it to be a street name; just remember to indicate a learned individual that could be religious or secular), then have Scholars gain Investigation and Wizard rituals vs Priests gain Insight and Cleric rituals.

Granted, that's just my two cents...

Oh and you might want to peruse Unearthed Arcana and Pathfinder's Occult Adventures when creating your ritual magic setup if you haven't already.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-27, 09:47 PM
Big update! The Priest has been trimmed down to just Cleric-y, Paladin-y, and Bard-y subclasses, and renamed the Warlord; the Ranger eats the Wild Shape stuff, augmented with the ability to eat animals and gain their powers, and a ritualist/alchemist type is forthcoming! Also, some color coding.


Paladin: Don't forget that the Purple Dragon Knight fills both "heavy armor warrior" and "inspiring leader" at the same time; it might be worth mentioning.
<shrug>


Rogue and Priest: It just doesn't make sense to me for a scholar who didn't study Medicine to know how to Sneak Attack; part of me really wants to suggest there be the Rogue as normal, then a Surgeon class with Sneak Attack and the Battlefield/ Campground Medicine features from your current Priest build but no base class Inspiration (I might give it Rogue-style skill boosting abilities but only for Medicine and the Alchemy/ Herbalism kits, maybe an end-cap of "Steady Hands" that treats Sneak Attack dice rolls of less than 3 as 3 or something similar), and then a Scholar/ Priest combo class that focuses on Intelligence skills + Insight including getting Expertise in them, Ritual Magic, and Inspiration (can fluff as tactical advice or religious fervor as desired).
I'm thinking the Surgeon should have 3 archetypes, one who should focus on scalpel - I mean dagger - use and gain Blade Flourish abilities, one that becomes a Mad Alchemist with special bonuses to using alchemical items (in fact, one option here is to adapt 3.5's tanglefoot bags and thunderstones + the 3.5 tactical feat of the same name and go to town), and one who focuses on their bedside manner to develop Inspiration abilities. The Scholar/ Priest class could have a base name like "Bookworm" (or something more respectful if you don't want it to be a street name; just remember to indicate a learned individual that could be religious or secular), then have Scholars gain Investigation and Wizard rituals vs Priests gain Insight and Cleric rituals.
Well, as it so happens, one of the archetypes for the Ritualist I'm considering will be the Surgeon, and another an alchemist, so... great minds think alike?

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-28, 08:56 PM
Update two! The Scholar (no just a ritualist anymore!) is now up! Mostly, at least-- I'm still working on the beastmaster-summoner archetype. Mostly as I was thinking before, but with a new twist: like the Warlock, you get double-archetypes--one gives you rituals, and the other some more standard skillmonkey-type stuff. I would really love some feedback on this one; the Warlord was based pretty heavily on the Bard, but the Scholar is pretty much from scratch.

AslanC
2018-03-26, 07:11 AM
Sorry to Raise Thread, but this is amazing!

Is it complete as is? Is there more to it?

Can I get a PDF of it? ;)

I need to know more!

Cheers!

Argothair
2018-03-26, 06:07 PM
Very interesting ideas, and most of it looks like it was very thoughtfully balanced. I like your approach of eliminating some classes while adding others to fill in some of the vacated niches, and I like the idea that scholars could be either humanists or supernaturalists. I would like to see a little more analysis of how Humanist Scholars, Bard Warlords, and Thieving Rogues can gain abilities beyond just the generic "be a skill monkey." Many of the D&D 5e skills are very DM-dependent, e.g., having a high Arcana score or Nature score or History score or Persuasion score is unlikely to change the flow of the campaign, because with many DMs, if the DM wants (needs?) you to know something, she'll find a way to tell you even if you flub your lore roll, and if the DM doesn't want the local NPC chieftain to be your friend, then she'll find a way to make the chieftain oppose you even if you ace your persuasion or deception roll. So if the only advantages a class gets is proficiency and expertise in a bunch of skills, then that's not super-interesting.

Arguing out of the other side of my mouth, using "Aid Another" as a bonus action might be *too* powerful. Depending on what else you need a bonus action for, that could amount to just giving the entire party a permanent +1d4 boost to every ability check all through the game...which sounds cool, but you have to figure the GM will eventually adjust the DC levels to match.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-03-28, 05:42 PM
Sorry to Raise Thread, but this is amazing!

Is it complete as is? Is there more to it?

Can I get a PDF of it? ;)

I need to know more!

Cheers!
Thank you :smallredface: Umm... it's complete-ish? I wasn't really planning on adding any new stuff, but I'm not comfortable about the balance (especially Binder Scholars)-- I've neither playtested nor received that much balancing-oriented feedback on the new classes. No PDF, I'm afraid-- if I started doing something like that I'd wind up spending way too much time on presentation. And, possibly, writing class fluff (which I hate).


Very interesting ideas, and most of it looks like it was very thoughtfully balanced. I like your approach of eliminating some classes while adding others to fill in some of the vacated niches, and I like the idea that scholars could be either humanists or supernaturalists.
Thanks!


I woould like to see a little more analysis of how Humanist Scholars, Bard Warlords, and Thieving Rogues can gain abilities beyond just the generic "be a skill monkey." Many of the D&D 5e skills are very DM-dependent,
That's pretty true... however, 5e generally just doesn't have options beyond spells and the generic "be a skill monkey." A few ribbon-y bits like Natural Explorer, some of the Mastermind Rogue and new Whispers Bard features, but mostly it's just "lol ability checks lol." (I've got an idea for such a project, but it would be a fairly massive undertaking and a huge complexity spike.) That said...

Bard Warlords could certainly get something other than Jack of All Trades. Maybe a port or variant on the Whisper Bard's Words of Terror?
Thief Rogues could certainly get a better ability. Maybe something balance related, to go with the jumping and climbing they already get?
Scholars... to be honest, Humanist Scholars had me kind of stumped for features. I'd scrap them and turn Supernatural into just another Thesis, but I couldn't (and still can't) come up with a decent combat ability for them that isn't already covered by the Alchemist and Binder. Though... actually, it might be interesting to just turn all three abilities into ASIs. Can you say "maximum (in)human potential?"



Arguing out of the other side of my mouth, using "Aid Another" as a bonus action might be *too* powerful. Depending on what else you need a bonus action for, that could amount to just giving the entire party a permanent +1d4 boost to every ability check all through the game...which sounds cool, but you have to figure the GM will eventually adjust the DC levels to match.
The Mastermind Rogue can already do that, and I don't see complaints. Honestly, out of combat, you can Help pretty much at will anyway, and reducing the action cost doesn't really alter that math. I think the +1d4 boost is from an old draft, though?

Davout1806
2018-05-13, 12:12 AM
Awesome stuff! Thanks for posting Grod.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-18, 11:02 AM
Awesome stuff! Thanks for posting Grod.
Thanks! :smallredface:

I also went back and made the changes I mused about in the last post-- In place of vanilla skill boosts, Bard Warlocks get a slightly-more-effective form of both the College of Glamor and College of Whispers abilities, Thief Rogues get badass acrobatic skills, and Humanist Scholars get more ASI than anyone else.