Wood elf rogue + elven accuracy + champion for 27% crits

[Dalebert]

Here's the basic plan. Thoughts?

Wood elf rogue (arcane trickster) with starting dex 17 for 4 lvls, take elven accuracy.
Champion for 5 lvls, take skulker.
At 13 take sharpshooter.
At 15 +2 dex to 20.
The rest seems like gravy. Maybe alert, lucky.

The idea is to have multiple ways to get advantage. Trickster works best for this--hiding (wood elf helps, eventually skulker), owl familiar for assistance, eventually mage hand assist. Use a longbow. It's AL so it's easy to get an Ild Rune for +1d6 fire dmg. You want to pile up as many dmg from dice as possible to exploit crits. We considered ranger but the additional dip doesn't seem worth it.

The build basically comes online by 7th when you get crits on 19s (27% chance with elven accuracy). Apply sharpshooter on the 2nd attack by 8th for a burst of dmg. Once you have skulker, you can stay hidden for the 2nd shot. Otherwise you get advantage from familiar.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Well, you know you don't have to supply the advantage yourself, not if you're in a party. If you have a build that can do more damage if it gets advantage without being as able to reliably provide advantage to itself but is teamed up with a bard or a wizard with some debuffs, you effectively do better.

[prototype00]

Well, you know you don't have to supply the advantage yourself, not if you're in a party. If you have a build that can do more damage if it gets advantage without being as able to reliably provide advantage to itself but is teamed up with a bard or a wizard with some debuffs, you effectively do better.

Well, I’m always a fan of “The more you can set up your own combo, the more the rest of the party can do their awesome thing” school of thought.

[Legendairy]

Ranger 3 for gloom stalker would give you advantage and an extra attack in the first round, more rogue less fighter gives you the +dice damage and still the crits on 19-20.
Something like rogue 12 / ranger 5/ champ fighter 3....still comes online at 7 then go to ranger and delay extra attack or go fighter 5, I prefers ranger for the small spell list.

[Finlam]

Like all Elven Accuracy builds, it's really feat heavy. I would consider going mostly champion to pick up ASI and feats quicker. In this case you're looking at EE, SS, and Skulker. You can have them by level 8 or 9 if you prioritize Champion.

Otherwise: I'd give a second look to Gloom Stalker 3, Champion X. As another poster pointed out, you can Action Surge in the first round of combat to get 2 Attack actions, netting you 2 extra attacks in the first round of combat, thanks to the lvl 3 Gloom Stalker ability. Not to mention free advantage in the first round of combat as you'll be winning initiative all the time as you add wis+dex+half prof to your initiative roll.

Or...
You could also consider Champion 3/College of Swords X which will get you strong spell casting so you can Shadow of Moil for heavy obscurement or any other number of tricks, complete with extra attack and flourish goodness. You can still get a familiar if you want it, too. Oor even a badass Pegasus, cause WTF not? Magical secrets can guarantee you have what you need, regardless of character concept.

[Legendairy]

I’m actually playing this build right now rogue6/ gloom stalker ranger5/ champ fighter 3. We rolled stats tho and mine are higher than point buy. So may grab more rogue levels first to get the feats then going into ranger after champ.

[Legendairy]

The build is all about exploiting elven accuracy to crit a lot with sneak attack dice. What would you suggest that's worth giving up such a crucial foundation of the build? I assume you mean another rogue archetype?

Anyway, this is AL. I can't count on what other characters will be.

I mean, you bonus action hide so you should be attacking from stealth as much as possible, I think AT would give advantage in more situations, scout has some nice goodies too but nothing that greatly helps I don’t think. I would grab gloom stalker ranger in there somewhere, wisdom to init, if relevant is good and the invisible to dark vision is nice, also it boosts your dark vision and you get that ever glorious first round. With champ fighter that’s when you action surge and kill things DED.

[Dalebert]

Well, you know you don't have to supply the advantage yourself, not if you're in a party. If you have a build that can do more damage if it gets advantage without being as able to reliably provide advantage to itself but is teamed up with a bard or a wizard with some debuffs, you effectively do better.

The build is all about exploiting elven accuracy to crit a lot with sneak attack dice. What would you suggest that's worth giving up such a crucial foundation of the build? I assume you mean another rogue archetype? It's hard to do more damage with elven accuracy than with rogue and arcane trickster is an all-around excellent rogue archetype.

Anyway, this is AL. I can't count on what other characters will be.


Like all Elven Accuracy builds, it's really feat heavy. I would consider going mostly champion to pick up ASI and feats quicker. In this case you're looking at EE, SS, and Skulker. You can have them by level 8 or 9 if you prioritize Champion.

And then I give up a lot of sneak attack dice, defeating the point of getting the feats faster. It's really not that feat heavy. SS is icing, really; nice boost when it happens but the build is solid before I think. Skulker helps a lot which comes online right before I get my 2nd attack at 9th, which is what is helped most by it. That plus it expands my hide options--any light oscurement vs. just natural light obscurement.


Otherwise: I'd give a second look to Gloom Stalker 3, Champion X.

Where's the damage dice coming from to compete with eventually 7d6 sneak attack?


Not to mention free advantage in the first round of combat as you'll be winning initiative all the time as you add wis+dex+half prof to your initiative roll.

Free advantage from what? How does winning initiative give free advantage unless your an assassin? (My absolute least favorite rogue archetype, btw. Would not play one.)


You could also consider Champion 3/College of Swords X which will get you strong spell casting so you can Shadow of Moil for heavy obscurement or any other number of tricks, complete with extra attack and flourish goodness. You can still get a familiar if you want it, too. Oor even a badass Pegasus, cause WTF not? Magical secrets can guarantee you have what you need, regardless of character concept.

Again, sneak attack dice are a pretty big part of the concept. What's replacing them?

[Legendairy]

Gloom stalker gets advantage in first round. I think that’s what he meant. Also stealth will give you advantage first shot.

[Dalebert]

Gloom stalker gets advantage in first round.

I just looked over GS a couple of times and I'm not seeing that.


Also stealth will give you advantage first shot.

Right, that would be the plan, with familiar or mage hand assist as a backup, but that doesn't need Ranger. I'm starting to feel like a lot of folks have a Gloomstalker fetish. It is a cool archetype (for a ranger, if you really must play one. I try not to) but I don't see it as being especially helpful to this build, especially not for the hit to sneak attack dice and feat progression price I would pay for it.

[Rhaegar14]

Any particular reason you're favoring ranged over melee? (Because ranged is more fun is a perfectly adequate answer.) If you take Two-Weapon Fighting Style for your Fighter levels, then take Athletics expertise, you have the option of using your first of your three attacks to shove your target prone for advantage if you aren't getting it from any other source.

[Finlam]

Free advantage from what? How does winning initiative give free advantage unless your an assassin? (My absolute least favorite rogue archetype, btw. Would not play one.)

My bad, forgot you're AL so Revised Ranger is not allowed. Aside from that, sneak attack is 1/turn, Sharpshooter is not. The ability to launch 6 attacks in the first round of combat by level 8 is a pretty solid replacement (not even counting extra damage from gloom stalker), not to mention getting the build online faster.

But it seems to me that you're mostly after a "dice explosion" kind of build, in which case: yea, Champion, Elven Accuracy, and Rogue is exactly what you want.

Or ... College of Swords can get you greater Invis, netting you advantage the whole fight, on all your attacks without requiring skulker. You could even pick up swift quiver if you wete so inclined.

In the end, whichever way you go, you're trading attacks and versatility for sneak attack dice. But it sounds like you already know what you want, so go for the sneak attack and rattle those dice!

[Legendairy]

You are right, maybe it was the darkstalker ranger that got that. Assassin rogue gets it but well it’s a bit boring. You could also do hexblade rogue and pick up the invocations for ranged leaving out fighter but you have to take some more hexblade levels, not a bad idea and of course darkness+devilsight.

[Dalebert]

Any particular reason you're favoring ranged over melee?

Yes. Because elves get +2 dex; not str. Elven Accuracy is practically a free feat when you start with 17 dex. Hiding almost never works for melee attacks unless your enemy comes right up to your hiding spot and then you get it just the one time. I'm taking advantage of the synergy that works--wood elves are great at hiding, rogues can hide as a bonus action and get lots of sneak attack dice making obscene dmg when you crit, which will be a lot. Your suggestion gets really MAD and won't come online until 9th level. I'd like to be decent before then. At 4th level, when I would probably start at with DM rewards, I will already have elven advantage and 2 extra sneak attack dice. The build will be decent immediately and get better quickly.

[Legendairy]

My bad, forgot you're AL so Revised Ranger is not allowed. Aside from that, sneak attack is 1/turn, Sharpshooter is not. The ability to launch 6 attacks in the first round of combat by level 8 is a pretty solid replacement (not even counting extra damage from gloom stalker), not to mention getting the build online faster.

But it seems to me that you're mostly after a "dice explosion" kind of build, in which case: yea, Champion, Elven Accuracy, and Rogue is exactly what you want.

Or ... College of Swords can get you greater Invis, netting you advantage the whole fight, on all your attacks without requiring skulker. You could even pick up swift quiver if you wete so inclined.

In the end, whichever way you go, you're trading attacks and versatility for sneak attack dice. But it sounds like you already know what you want, so go for the sneak attack and rattle those dice!

This, I knew it was something in UA I was confusin also. You have to figure do you want more sustained damage to go with your exploding dice or just a metric ton of dice on crit. Remember 27% still isn’t guaranteed, having the extra damage on those attacks that don’t crit is more useful imho.

[Rhaegar14]

Yes. Because elves get +2 dex; not str. Elven Accuracy is practically a free feat when you start with 17 dex. Hiding almost never works for melee attacks unless your enemy comes right up to your hiding spot and then you get it just the one time. I'm taking advantage of the synergy that works--wood elves are great at hiding, rogues can hide as a bonus action and get lots of sneak attack dice making obscene dmg when you crit, which will be a lot.

Finesse weapons are a thing, and the only good reason to pick Strength weapons over finesse weapons is two-handed fighting styles. "Elves get +2 Dex" is not really a valid point in this instance.

I get that the idea is to critfish with sneak attack. My point is that with a decent Athletics bonus (which even with +0 Strength, if you have Athletics expertise your bonus will be decent) you can create advantage on your melee attacks at will, by yourself, against most opponents. With Extra Attack and a bonus action swing, you attack three times. On your first attack you shove prone, giving you advantage on the next two with two chances to crit and a very small chance you miss either (this is of course assuming your shove is successful, which in some instances is not at all a guarantee).

Frankly, there's no reason not to carry both a bow and a pair of blades and use whichever works for a given situation. Got accessible ways of creating advantage? Great, pull your bow. Can't get advantage on the bow attacks? That's what the swords are for. The only change you'd need to make is making sure one of your skill expertises is Athletics and then you have the same build but with the melee shove as an option.

[Dalebert]

My bad, forgot you're AL so Revised Ranger is not allowed. Aside from that, sneak attack is 1/turn, Sharpshooter is not. The ability to launch 6 attacks in the first round of combat by level 8 is a pretty solid replacement (not even counting extra damage from gloom stalker), not to mention getting the build online faster.

But it seems to me that you're mostly after a "dice explosion" kind of build, in which case: yea, Champion, Elven Accuracy, and Rogue is exactly what you want.

Exactly! I'm not poopoo-ing that build direction. I've seen it several times, probably because it's so good. A friend made a str8 fighter kobold with crossbow expert and SS. Dmg is insane. But I'm going for something different.


Or ... College of Swords can get you greater Invis, netting you advantage the whole fight, on all your attacks without requiring skulker.

Yes, for a dramatically different build than what I'm going for--more of a caster. I have lots of those. And at a significant cost in sneak attack dice and rogue features.


In the end, whichever way you go, you're trading attacks and versatility for sneak attack dice.

I don't know about that. Rogue features are really nice. The sneak attack is crucial but it's odd to say I'm giving up versatility by opting for high level rogue features over a 2nd dip for low level cross-class features.


You have to figure do you want more sustained damage to go with your exploding dice or just a metric ton of dice on crit. Remember 27% still isn’t guaranteed...

No, but even the 73% that aren't crits are still high hit rate and usually sneak attack dmg which is nothing to sneeze at. It's just a different way of doing dmg vs. more hits at lower dmg or multiple hits with sharpshooters -5/+10 which comes with the price of hitting a little less often. Again, not poopoo-ing those builds. They're just a completely different direction.

[Finlam]

In that case, have you thought about going with 2 or 3 levels of warlock to pick up Devils sight, darkness, and Eldritch Smite as a replacement for Sneak Attack dice and a consistent source of advantage? Maybe switch wood elf to drow for extra darkness.

[mailer_daemon]

The build is all about exploiting elven accuracy to crit a lot with sneak attack dice.


Again, sneak attack dice are a pretty big part of the concept. What's replacing them?

I think a lot of the responses are addressing the first full sentence in your original post:


The idea is to have multiple ways to get advantage.

Since your original post never mentions the words Sneak Attack, it seemed like it was all about gaining advantage through different means. Gloom Stalker Ranger is a great way to gain advantage with no expenditure of resources or bonus actions so that's why it's showing up a lot in the mentions. But your build is all about maximizing Sneak Attack dice through crits, yes?

[Dalebert]

Was just talking to my roommate who is also working on the same build. We were thinking of making twins actually though we'd rarely get ot play them together. He strongly believes I should hold off on the 4th and 5th levels of Champion until full progression in rogue and I thought he made a good argument. That said, the TWF idea to shove with first of two attacks is not bad to have in my back pocket (exp athletics + reliable talent) but it would not come online until later. It's not even dependent on the TWF feat for this build.


Since your original post never mentions the words Sneak Attack, it seemed like it was all about gaining advantage through different means. Gloom Stalker Ranger is a great way to gain advantage with no expenditure of resources or bonus actions so that's why it's showing up a lot in the mentions. But your build is all about maximizing Sneak Attack dice through crits, yes?

I didn't say "sneak attack" because it's primarily a rogue but I mentioned this which you seem to be overlooking.


You want to pile up as many dmg from dice as possible to exploit crits.

The high crit rate benefits more from dmg by dice and the best way I know to get that is a lot of rogue. I think if someone really likes the new Gloomstalkers, that's a great reason to dip it, but I just can't see swapping high level rogue features for the early gloomstalker stuff, along with 1.5 sneak attack dice and slowing feat progression. Yes, it would grant me another way to get advantage when it's completely dark and there's no blindsight and such, but I don't think it justifies that price on a build that has a lot of ways to get advantage. In fact, possibly the most reliable way (my mage hand) gets significantly delayed by that dip. Familiars can get killed. Hiding spaces can be scarce. The invisible mage hand will rarely get tripped up.

[Biggstick]

Was just talking to my roommate who is also working on the same build. We were thinking of making twins actually though we'd rarely get ot play them together. He strongly believes I should hold off on the 4th and 5th levels of Champion until full progression in rogue and I thought he made a good argument. That said, the TWF idea to shove with first of two attacks is not bad to have in my back pocket (exp athletics + reliable talent) but it would not come online until later. It's not even dependent on the TWF feat for this build.

Honestly, you should go for at least 7 levels of Rogue first imo. Deciding to leave Rogue at level 4 and not pick up Uncanny Dodge (and 3d6 Sneak attack) and Evasion (and 4d6 Sneak Attack) doesn't seem right.

However, you also are looking to add Skulker to your build. Personally, it seems like Skulker and Elven Accuracy are more important to your build then Sneak Attack dice. If they are, I'd only potentially start with 1 level of Rogue, go 6 levels Champion (for the necessary feats), and then go the 5-7 levels of Rogue, and then back to Champion. That's just me though.


The high crit rate benefits more from dmg by dice and the best way I know to get that is a lot of rogue. I think if someone really likes the new Gloomstalkers, that's a great reason to dip it, but I just can't see swapping high level rogue features for the early gloomstalker stuff, along with 1.5 sneak attack dice and slowing feat progression. Yes, it would grant me another way to get advantage when it's completely dark and there's no blindsight and such, but I don't think it justifies that price on a build that has a lot of ways to get advantage. In fact, possibly the most reliable way (my mage hand) gets significantly delayed by that dip. Familiars can get killed. Hiding spaces can be scarce. The invisible mage hand will rarely get tripped up.

The new Gloomstaulkers are solid because of how they're "invisible" in the darkness.

As far as your most reliable way to gain advantage, let's actually break that down. It requires you to have spent a possible pre-combat action (yes, it's still an action to cast the Mage Hand cantrip, even if you're an Arcane Trickster). So let's say you do manage to get the spell (yes, it's a spell you'll have to cast that has both a verbal and a somatic component to it, meaning an enemy is likely to know you're casting it) off pre-combat; you better already have the Mage Hand within 5' of the target! You can't move the Mage Hand (which requires your Bonus Action, and it can only move up to 30' on a turn) on the same turn you utilize it to grant yourself advantage. And here's the other thing with moving the Mage Hand, it must remain within 30' of you at all times, or it disappears. Now I don't know if you've ever actually played a higher level Rogue, but my experience has made me never want to be within melee range on high level Rogues. Most of the big bads at this point will absolutely crush a 17 AC Rogue with only Uncanny Dodge to protect them.

A TLDR. Mage Hand is nice in helping generate advantage late game for melee Rogues (and only if you can manage to cast it prior to combat). If you plan on being a Rogue that shoots arrows from beyond 30' it's a terrible way to generate advantage. Overall, it's a bad way to generate advantage for self, as if you can't cast it pre-combat, it will require you to be within 30' of the target, and to spend an action casting (meaning a full turn of doing 0 damage).

[Dalebert]

Yes, I'm aware of all those issues with Mage Hand. It's either a last resort due to the action cost or it's something that I hopefully had before hand if there was reason to. FOr instance, I have an AT right now and I try to mention that I'm casting it right before going around a corner or through a door while dungeon crawling. I'm not so obnoxious as to try "I'm casting MH every minute!" while traveling down a road all day. That's silly. I do think it's probably fine to say you're casting every minute for a short time frame like in a small dungeon that you're exploring relatively quickly.

Another thing I do is have the mage hand carrying a torch ahead of us just a foot or so above the ground. The torch has a triangle that holds it up off the ground if it drops (picture a wooden triangle with a hole in the middle. You stick the torch into the hole.) When it drops, I recast. Now I have a little signal. Again though, that kinda only seem reasonable for dungeon crawling; not general travel like in the Underdark. It would get too tedious.


Honestly, you should go for at least 7 levels of Rogue first imo. Deciding to leave Rogue at level 4 and not pick up Uncanny Dodge (and 3d6 Sneak attack) and Evasion (and 4d6 Sneak Attack) doesn't seem right.

I can see a compromise at 5th. That delays my crit-on-19 by one level but makes me a little more viable earlier and doesn't delay my next feat--Skulker. Skulker is important to the build but it doesn't feel crucial until I've got a 2nd attack (stay hidden and make both attacks with advantage). I have bonus action hide. Delaying my 4th and 5th levels of Champion makes it not feel as crucial.


However, you also are looking to add Skulker to your build. Personally, it seems like Skulker and Elven Accuracy are more important to your build then Sneak Attack dice.

Disagree hardily about Skulker, especially since I'm now leaning toward putting off 2nd attack a very long time.


If they are, I'd only potentially start with 1 level of Rogue, go 6 levels Champion (for the necessary feats), and then go the 5-7 levels of Rogue, and then back to Champion.

OUCH! That's a steep price to pay in terms of sneak attack and rogue features just to be impatient for feats.

I'm not seeing it. Starting this char at 4th level, he will already have 18 dex, expertise in stealth, elven accuracy, and a familiar to assist (yes, depending on the DM, it will die fast). He's already got 3 dice of dmg and fairly reliable sources of advantage. Any other approach makes him be mediocre for a while before it really pays off. One more level of rogue kind of makes sense to me (+1d6 and uncanny dodge). Skulker is nice but not crucial to the build until he has 2 attacks. In fact, if I delay his 2nd attack as my roommate suggested, I'll probably delay Skulker too and go for Sharpshooter first, maybe +2 Dex (to 20).

[Legendairy]

Just out of curiosity are you asking or arguing against? Multiple options have been presented.

Holding off on second attack means less chance to land a sneak attack, if you miss that round you do NO damage. Two attacks with advantage (shoot from hidden, hide, shoot again) if both hit great if He first isn’t a crit the second may be and if not just add the sneak to it. If the first is the crit then bam it’s the sneak attack. 1 shot a round all be it with triple advantage still CAN miss although with a small chance, depending on the dm and encounters of course.

[Legendairy]

Sorry, they may have come off a bit harsh. I mean are you wanting critiques of your build or full builds that take advantage or just dipping options? You seem to have what you want worked out?

[mgshamster]

Yay! It's my build I used against the coffeelock! :)

It totally works. At level 18, it's a 37% chance to crit. Add in a lucky die, and it's a 48% chance to crit.

From there, find as many dice as you can so you roll them. Purple worm poison adds 12d6 dice (doubled to 24d6). Sneak attack helps. Any bow that adds dice damage (Oathbow, variant of frost/flame swords, etc...).

It's a fun build, but it takes a long time to come online and it's feat heavy. Not sure how viable it would be in real play.

[Legendairy]

Yay! It's my build I used against the coffeelock! :)

It totally works. At level 18, it's a 37% chance to crit. Add in a lucky die, and it's a 48% chance to crit.

From there, find as many dice as you can so you roll them. Purple worm poison adds 12d6 dice (doubled to 24d6). Sneak attack helps. Any bow that adds dice damage (Oathbow, variant of frost/flame swords, etc...).

It's a fun build, but it takes a long time to come online and it's feat heavy. Not sure how viable it would be in real play.

With SS, it wouldn’t take much more time than usual to really start being effective, at worse you are a SS archer, at best you kill schroedinger CL.

[Dalebert]

I mean are you wanting critiques of your build or full builds that take advantage or just dipping options? You seem to have what you want worked out?

I had my plan and was curious what people thought of it and if they had suggestions to change things. I have largely disagreed with many of the suggestions thus far but I have actually been seriously pondering the feedback.

Here's where I am now. This build was really my roommate's idea and I just liked the idea so much I was going to run with it too. Now we've decided we're going to play twin wood elves and we've got some fun roleplaying ideas for them. I'm kinda the dumb jock and he's a little more charming. We're going in slightly different but very similar directions. I'm going in a melee with extra attacks direction, hopefully with weapons that have added dice of dmg while he's going single attack with lots of sneak. He's eventually taking 3 lvl of gloomstalker but prolly not until tier 4.

My plan, starting at 4th level:
str 12 dex 18 con 15 int 8 wis 14 cha 8
Gloomstalker 5 (TWF style, elven accuracy feat, Hunter's Mark) -- Considering Darkvision spell so no one in my party needs light, will try to get Goggles of Night to wear or loan out.
Arcane Trickster 4 (expertise in athletics, stealth, mobile feat) -- I can now shove to prone with first attack for advantage on next 2 (or 3). Getting a familiar to help with advantage. Getting Control Flames so I can extengish non-magical light sources from 60 ft away.
Champion 3 (defense style, obviously for crit on 19 by lvl 12)
Arcane Trickster 8 -- (resilient con, +2 dex, another feat?, eventually reliable talent will make my shoves obscenely good)

[Citan]

Was just talking to my roommate who is also working on the same build. We were thinking of making twins actually though we'd rarely get ot play them together. He strongly believes I should hold off on the 4th and 5th levels of Champion until full progression in rogue and I thought he made a good argument. That said, the TWF idea to shove with first of two attacks is not bad to have in my back pocket (exp athletics + reliable talent) but it would not come online until later. It's not even dependent on the TWF feat for this build.



I didn't say "sneak attack" because it's primarily a rogue but I mentioned this which you seem to be overlooking.



The high crit rate benefits more from dmg by dice and the best way I know to get that is a lot of rogue. I think if someone really likes the new Gloomstalkers, that's a great reason to dip it, but I just can't see swapping high level rogue features for the early gloomstalker stuff, along with 1.5 sneak attack dice and slowing feat progression. Yes, it would grant me another way to get advantage when it's completely dark and there's no blindsight and such, but I don't think it justifies that price on a build that has a lot of ways to get advantage. In fact, possibly the most reliable way (my mage hand) gets significantly delayed by that dip. Familiars can get killed. Hiding spaces can be scarce. The invisible mage hand will rarely get tripped up.
Honestly, if you want to play ranged AND go for crit fish, I'd say that you should drop Skulker and get Crossbow Expert instead, together with Darkness for when you want to hide and possibly Devil Sight if you want to use it constantly although it's honestly overkill imo.

Otherwise, just grab Expertise in Athletics and Perception, grab Sharpshooter, and go for Rogue 3 > Champion 6 > Rogue 7 > Champion 11 then finish however you want (i'd argue Rogue 9 for Magical Ambush).
Close in, use your free hand to shove prone as first attack, then attack with advantage for the remaining of your turn.
When you want to keep distance, just use crossbow normally, maybe using a familiar as you suggest, or a friend pal.

As a sidenote, you can have an easy melee build: grab a finesse weapon, Grappler, and increase mobility if you want just to be sure: grapple someone, drag him into a Darkness (with Devil Sight multiclass) or Fog Cloud (without, but many creatures have darkvision): now your target is cut off from its pals, so its only chance to survive is to hit you hard enough to make you break off the grapple willingly. Bad thing for it is you have Shield or Uncanny Dodge to help mitigate damage.
Warlock 2-3 / Champion 5+ / Arcane Trickster 3+ works very well for that. ;)

[Klorox]

I like the idea of a champion 5/rogue 15 getting crazy crits.

IDC if these crits are with a rapier or longbow. Either is fun.

I don’t think you need arcane trickster for the familiar, but I don’t think any other rogue archetype really works better, so it’s up to the player.

Nice job!

[Dalebert]

Honestly, if you want to play ranged AND go for crit fish, I'd say that you should drop Skulker and get Crossbow Expert instead, together with Darkness for when you want to hide and possibly Devil Sight if you want to use it constantly although it's honestly overkill imo.

My twin is going the range route. I suggested xbow expert and he wasn't interested. I'm not sure why. Maybe because when you're relying on hiding, you only get one shot with advantage anyway so he just opted for the greater range and dmg of a long bow. Also, maybe he just likes the flavor of a wood elf with a longbow. I kind of like that flavor as well.


Otherwise, just grab Expertise in Athletics and Perception, grab Sharpshooter, and go for Rogue 3 > Champion 6 > Rogue 7 > Champion 11 then finish however you want (i'd argue Rogue 9 for Magical Ambush).
Close in, use your free hand to shove prone as first attack, then attack with advantage for the remaining of your turn.
When you want to keep distance, just use crossbow normally, maybe using a familiar as you suggest, or a friend pal.


I like the idea of a champion 5/rogue 15 getting crazy crits.

My twin is doing rogue to 4th, champion 3 to 7th, rogue up to 17th, and then gloomstalker to 20. He's not interested in extra attack. His focus is lots of dice on one attack with super advantage.


I don’t think you need arcane trickster for the familiar, but I don’t think any other rogue archetype really works better, so it’s up to the player.

Yeah, so here was my thinking. I wanted Control Flames so I could extenguish non-magical light sources from 60 feet away. I also wanted a familiar as an extra source of advantage. I was leaning swashbuckler so I contemplated Magic Initiate at 9th (gloomstalker 5th with elven accuracy, then swashbuckler to 9th). It occured to me that I get way more bang for the buck to go arcane trickster and get the cantrips and familiar as class features then just take mobile feat. Now I have the familiar, an invisible mage hand that can interact as bonus action, two cantrips including Control Flame, and the mobility of a swashbuckler PLUS 10 ft extra move. I'm also less MAD which is nice. I'm just mostly sticking to utility spells since my spell attack and DC will suck. I'm dumping int. If I get a Headband of Intellect, I can go nuts but I'm not worried about it. A Ring of Spell Storing would also be nice. Then when I hit 9th, a powerful caster can put something in it for me to cast at something while hidden to impose disadvantage. Also means I could get a paladin mount. :D

Here's a question that's emerged for me though. Am I too hung up on that Champion crit at 19 feature? It obviously goes nicely with elven advantage. I've done the math and it means 13% more dmg on any dice when I have advantage, which should be quite a lot since I'm building for it. Is that worth the opportunity cost of giving up more sneak attack and the 13 to 15 level rogue features (2d6 sneak, blindsense, wis save prof, using mage hand to get adv as bonus action)? As a champion, I would also get 2nd wind (meh), a 2nd fighting style (prolly defense), and action surge.

[Klorox]

My twin is doing rogue to 4th, champion 3 to 7th, rogue up to 17th, and then gloomstalker to 20. He's not interested in extra attack. His focus is lots of dice on one attack with super advantage.

That's cool and all, and y'all can play whatever you like, I'm sure it'll work fine and be awesome.

Personally, I'll take the chance at an extra hit. If the first one misses, you still have a chance at all those juicy sneak attack dice, even if is a few less dice overall.

[Galactkaktus]

Why not just play a dex based half elf oath of vengence paladin? Use wow of enmity to get elven accuracy online and critt fish a smite on your two attacks instead of your one sneak attack which should give you 1-(19^3/20^3)^2=0.265=26.5% on subsequent turns you could even draw a second weapon to attack with to increase the chance of getting atleast one critical smite on a turn to 1-(19^3/20^3)^3=0.37=37%.

[Citan]

My twin is going the range route. I suggested xbow expert and he wasn't interested. I'm not sure why. Maybe because when you're relying on hiding, you only get one shot with advantage anyway so he just opted for the greater range and dmg of a long bow. Also, maybe he just likes the flavor of a wood elf with a longbow. I kind of like that flavor as well.





My twin is doing rogue to 4th, champion 3 to 7th, rogue up to 17th, and then gloomstalker to 20. He's not interested in extra attack. His focus is lots of dice on one attack with super advantage.


In that case, I would strongly suggest him to opt for one of the following (note: I'm totally unaware of Gloom Stalker benefits, I don't have the latest book so I'm writing "without it").
- Switch Champion archetype for Battlemaster: unless he really goes for crit fishing, this would help much, especially when paired with Ensnaring Strike.
- Keep Champion, take 2 levels of War Cleric: +10 once per short rest would usually feel "too little not often", but on someone with triple advantage, it should be just enough to offset the usual strokes of bad luck for DAT moment when you just needed to hit and you failed all three rolls miserably. Since he wants to go ranger he should have the stats already. Plus you can Bless yourself for additional insurance.

[Dalebert]

My twin is going the range route. I suggested xbow expert and he wasn't interested. I'm not sure why.

Oh, duh! His build is based on hide as a primary source of crits. His bonus action is generally accounted for.


... unless he really goes for crit fishing...

That's literally in the title of the thread. It was his idea and he seems very married to the idea of elven accuracy + champion + lots of sneak attack.

Back to my question though...


Am I too hung up on that Champion crit at 19 feature?

It's driven purely by +dmg. It represents 13% more dmg to the dice of my attacks with advantage. Let's look at those dice. I'll prolly have two weapons that do 2d6 so dmg per turn. I have to assume that I might need to knock something prone so I'll only count two of my three attacks...

2d6 (x2 = 4d6) weapon
1d6 (x2 = 2d6) Hunter's Mark
6d6 sneak
Avg dmg = 12*3.5 = 42
So 13% of 42 = 5.46
Two more dice of sneak attack is 7.

Yikes. Not looking so amazing in that perspective, especially considering that, despite all kinds of machinations to ensure advantage, I obviously won't always have it.

[Klorox]

Why not just play a dex based half elf oath of vengence paladin? Use wow of enmity to get elven accuracy online and critt fish a smite on your two attacks instead of your one sneak attack which should give you 1-(19^3/20^3)^2=0.265=26.5% on subsequent turns you could even draw a second weapon to attack with to increase the chance of getting atleast one critical smite on a turn to 1-(19^3/20^3)^3=0.37=37%.

This isn’t half bad. I like it a lot.

You could (not sure if you should yet) add 3 levels of champion into the classic paladin/sorcerer build this way. Or, heck, a level of hexblade warlock.

[Dalebert]

Why not just play a dex based half elf oath of vengence paladin? Use wow of enmity to get elven accuracy online and critt fish a smite on your two attacks instead of your one sneak attack which should give you 1-(19^3/20^3)^2=0.265=26.5% on subsequent turns you could even draw a second weapon to attack with to increase the chance of getting atleast one critical smite on a turn to 1-(19^3/20^3)^3=0.37=37%.

That's a cool build. It's a more burst dmg build vs. consistent and more resource mgmt involved. Not necessarily a bad thing; just different.

If I were going that route, I'd go shield master and get expertise in athletics somehow, rogue 1 or bard 3 maybe. Wouldn't want to be limited to adv 1/short rest.

[Galactkaktus]

This isn’t half bad. I like it a lot.

You could (not sure if you should yet) add 3 levels of champion into the classic paladin/sorcerer build this way. Or, heck, a level of hexblade warlock.

It would force you to get atleast 13 str which makes it harder to achieve.

[Galactkaktus]

That's a cool build. It's a more burst dmg build vs. consistent and more resource mgmt involved. Not necessarily a bad thing; just different.

If I were going that route, I'd go shield master and get expertise in athletics somehow, rogue 1 or bard 3 maybe. Wouldn't want to be limited to adv 1/short rest.

I would just play it as a dex paladin with a you're going to die mode. And in worst case scenario just take the hit of one less asi in the fights were i don't want or am able to use that mode. The reason for this is that you already have 3 important attributes(Dex,Cha,Con) adding a requirement of 13 str in order to be able to multiclass will probably make it very costly. That being said the bard dip seems interesting for the increased amount of spell slots though.

[Chugger]

I'm glad you posted this - it's always exciting to be challenged. So well done.

What I'm having trouble getting around is this: is the cost we pay to get 27% chances for crits worth it?

If I'm a range rogue I'm doing 4d6 sneak attack damage at lvl 7 pure rogue. But if I'm this hybrid and I've gone champ for 6 lvls and I'm rogue 1 at lvl 7, I'm doing 1d6 sneak attack. If that's doubled in a crit, I'm doing 2d6, but I only get that a bit less than 1/3 of my rolls. I do 4d6 if I hit and if sneak attack conditions are met. Yes, I might hit more often as a champ/elf/rogue because 3 rolls if adv and +2 to ranged FS. All good. And I'll admit I'm not quite sure how to calc that - to compare it.

Sure, an elf champ fighter at lvl 6 has just had 3 ASIs - which I'll admit is nice. But my va Hu rogue has a feat and one ASI at lvl 6, only one behind. Your champ can take two shots - so can my va hu rogue with xbow mastery feat (though I give up a b.a. - but if I'm AT I can have an owl to help give me adv on one shot a round, so overall it's okay if I don't have to hide - and the owl does help where you simply can't hide - and there are fights where this happens).

All that talk about going gloom or other classes ... don't you want your sneak attack as high as possible? You're sacrificing everything to get EA, lots of adv strikes, and the chance to crit those sneak attack dice. The other add-ons help but at a price - sneak attack it seems needs to be given some priority. Or am I just not seeing something please?

Okay Champ 3 then rogue. At seven overall (champ 3/rog 4) the sneak attack dice are ... only 2d6. Pure rogue is 4d6. At lvl 8 the hybrid goes up to 3d6 and the pure rog stays at 4d6. At lvl 9 the hybrid is still 3d6 and the pure rogue goes up to 5d6. But the hybrid is now way behind on EA and the other ASIs/feats needed to make the build.

A pure rogue will miss a bit more often - can have a round where even if xbow master can miss both shots - this will be very rare for the hybrid I'd think. But a pure rogue goes through 3 "fast" asi's at 8 10 12 - and can go Luck to reroll bad misses when he strikes out. And a pure rogue can also get SS and so on.

And it is nice to get some of the rogue skills as early as possible - 1/2 dam on one hit - 1/2 or no damage on AoE - expertise and more expertise - the hybrid eventually gets these - and I will admit gets some advantages from the fighter stuff. Surge once per short rest really is worth considering (does action surge allow the chance for 2 sneak attacks?).

The main rogue cheese is to get off a reaction shot (say be being hasted) and thus get two sneak attacks. I just wonder where lower sneak attack dice but more crits = truly better. Again I don't know how to calc these. If anyone has some ideas on this, I'd sure appreciate it. Am still tempted by this hybrid build.

[Dalebert]

What I'm having trouble getting around is this: is the cost we pay to get 27% chances for crits worth it?

Yeah, I'm having that same question and I've asked it twice. You're the first to respond but it seems like you didn't see me ask it. Anyway, I have concluded it's not worth it and have decided to go gloomstalker 5 / rogue 15 as you will see if you scroll up a couple messages of mine. I'm quite okay with just a 14% crit chance when I have adv.


If I'm a range rogue I'm doing 4d6 sneak attack damage at lvl 7 pure rogue. But if I'm this hybrid and I've gone champ for 6 lvls and I'm rogue 1 at lvl 7, I'm doing 1d6 sneak attack.

Okay, someone suggested Champion 6 but my roommate playing my twin never planned to go past Champion 3 for the crit on 19s. I've explained the math to him but he doesn't care. I think he knows it's not more dmg but just wants that glorious feeling of critting a lot with all those sneak dice. I can't begrudge him that. The game's about fun first.


All that talk about going gloom or other classes ... don't you want your sneak attack as high as possible? You're sacrificing everything to get EA, lots of adv strikes, and the chance to crit those sneak attack dice. The other add-ons help but at a price - sneak attack it seems needs to be given some priority. Or am I just not seeing something please?

Yeah, you are. As GS 5 I get 3 attacks a round with TWF. Hunter's Mark adds a d6 to each of those. The melee weapons I'm using will eventually be 2d6 each (Dragontooth Dagger and Ild Rune shortsword). So that extra attack amounts to an extra 3d6 and TWF style means another +5 dmg. It more than makes up for the 2d6 of sneak I'm losing. So dmg is better and it comes down to whether I am okay with switching out high level rogue features for GS. I am. Alternatively, it creates yet another source of advantage for me and others by knocking prone with athletics expertise without having to take Shield Master. I don't expect to need that often so I can just attack more but it's nice to have in my back pocket for when needed.


And it is nice to get some of the rogue skills as early as possible...

My twin is going rogue 4 first, then champion 3, then rogue the rest of the way until the last three levels for gloomstalker. Rogue to 4 has always been his plan to grab EE ASAP.


The main rogue cheese is to get off a reaction shot (say be being hasted) and thus get two sneak attacks.

Yes, my twin is very big on that Hasted extra sneak. It's probably his main reason not to pursues 2nd attack. I like it too but I have to think about playing this character a LONG time before I"ll get that, if ever.

[Galactkaktus]

Hmm i wonder how a gwm fighter with three levels of hexblade would fare. The pay of for a critt is the bonus action attack that great weapon master gives you.

[Dalebert]

Hmm i wonder how a gwm fighter with three levels of hexblade would fare. The pay of for a critt is the bonus action attack that great weapon master gives you.

Downside would be you could never upgrade your weapon but probably worth it. I assume your primary means of adv would come from darkness/DS combo? Later you could just get Greater Invisibility.