Keeping some mental skills available for the War Hulk

[weckar]

I was thinking about the War Hulk PrC, and its unfortunate drawback of effectively losing all invested skill points into mental skills. I was wondering if there was a way to circumvent this loss for certain skills, for example by making them dependent on another ability score?

Specifically, I'd like a way to keep up UMD - but I'm interested in any skills I could keep!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well... there is the Hulk method. Enter as goliath barbarian, use Mountain Rage to qualify as Large. When not raging, you do not qualify for War Hulk, therefore you don't get its class features, including No Time to Think.

Unpleasant side effects include Dragon Disciple paradoxes and highly kinetic book-head intersectionary events.


The eternally useful X to Y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) has some ways to switch over skills, but only Disable Device, Intimidate, and Search go from a mental stat to a physical stat (Dex, Str, Dex, respectively).

[weckar]

X2Y is indeed a greatly useful resource.

Just to avoid this being an X/Y question though; the end-goal-aim here is to build an Artificer/War Hulk - possibly with a Favored Soul dip.
I think UMD is rather vital all the way through.

[ExLibrisMortis]

X2Y is indeed a greatly useful resource.

Just to avoid this being an X/Y question though; the end-goal-aim here is to build an Artificer/War Hulk - possibly with a Favored Soul dip.
I think UMD is rather vital all the way through.
Uh, well... since there is no simple X > Y solution, I think you'll have to use some fairly strong cheese, along the lines of trait removal, to get rid of No Time to Think (Ex). 5th-level wizard spell, one-hour casting time, hour/level duration, removes one (Ex) or (Su) ability. I'm not sure how an artificer would get the casting time down (Rapid Spell and Quicken Spell don't work), given that the likes of Uncanny Forethought don't work on magic items, but maybe you can craft a permanent item (headband of not losing your mind, CL 7 * 5 * 2000 * 70% self-only = 49 000 gp). You can make it nonmagically permanent with fusion + astral seed, but that's another level of effort.

Don't forget to advance War Hulk with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster; gets you some base attack along with the +STR.

[weckar]

Meh, the BAB is the least of my concern (final goal for this character is a permanent item of Divine Power).
Trait Removal is... interesting. Would putting it in an at-will (not continuous) magic item bring the casting time down appropriately? I forget exactly if it just becomes a standard action at that point.

[Andezzar]

Well... there is the Hulk method. Enter as goliath barbarian, use Mountain Rage to qualify as Large. When not raging, you do not qualify for War Hulk, therefore you don't get its class features, including No Time to Think.

Unpleasant side effects include Dragon Disciple paradoxes and highly kinetic book-head intersectionary events.It does not work that way. Except for PrCs in CW and CArc, prerequisites are only checked when taking the first level of the PrC. Additionally all other PrCs lack a mechanism for removing class features. So no matter the size the character retains all his class features.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Meh, the BAB is the least of my concern (final goal for this character is a permanent item of Divine Power).
Trait Removal is... interesting. Would putting it in an at-will (not continuous) magic item bring the casting time down appropriately? I forget exactly if it just becomes a standard action at that point.
Okay then, that'll do for base attack.

Command-activated items use the casting time of the spell they emulate, as per the Rules Compendium. You'd also be stuck with CL 7, so you'd have to use it two, three, or even four times a day. So, err, don't go for that one. It's only 10% cheaper than a continuous item anyway.


It does not work that way. Except for PrCs in CW and CArc, prerequisites are only checked when taking the first level of the PrC. Additionally all other PrCs lack a mechanism for removing class features. So no matter the size the character retains all his class features.
Well, that's a difference of interpretation, isn't it? The old "primary rules" argument. It's certainly not unreasonable to say the CW rules apply to all prestige classes, analogous to feat prerequisites. I'm pointing out a way to make use of such a ruling; if it doesn't work for weckar, then that's too bad, but there's no need to point it out to me.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Incarnate Construct template?
It removes all SAs and SQs, thus - No Time to Think too...

[weckar]

You mean that's not racially limited?

That's... rather genius...

Outside of Eberron though, are there any playable large constructs that would work for these purposes?

[ShurikVch]

Outside of Eberron though, are there any playable large constructs that would work for these purposes?Maug (Fiend Folio): 2 HD and LA: +3

or [whatever Medium-sized LA +0 race][Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre][Dustform]

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maug (Fiend Folio): 2 HD and LA: +3

or [whatever Medium-sized LA +0 race][Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre][Dustform]
Plus awaken construct after [Dustform]. He needs to get Incarnate Construct after taking War Hulk 1, and dustform creatures can't take class levels. Neatly takes care of the half-brute intelligence penalties, too.

[flappeercraft]

Well, that's a difference of interpretation, isn't it? The old "primary rules" argument. It's certainly not unreasonable to say the CW rules apply to all prestige classes, analogous to feat prerequisites. I'm pointing out a way to make use of such a ruling; if it doesn't work for weckar, then that's too bad, but there's no need to point it out to me.

Problem with taking that would be Dragon Disciple or similar PrCs. Dragon Disciple makes you a half dragon as capstone ability but the prerequisite is to not be a dragon or half dragon so it breaks its own prerequisite and lose that class feature and therefore lose the class feature but therefore qualify for it again and it just loops like that or just doesn't work by that interpretation.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Problem with taking that would be Dragon Disciple or similar PrCs. Dragon Disciple makes you a half dragon as capstone ability but the prerequisite is to not be a dragon or half dragon so it breaks its own prerequisite and lose that class feature and therefore lose the class feature but therefore qualify for it again and it just loops like that or just doesn't work by that interpretation.
... which was in my original post, and so falls under the header of "no need to inform me".

[flappeercraft]

... which was in my original post, and so falls under the header of "no need to inform me".

Crap, must have missed it. Then I have nothing to contribute

[Thurbane]

Can Artificers get a familiar? If so, then let the familiar use your ranks instead of you.

[flappeercraft]

Can Artificers get a familiar? If so, then let the familiar use your ranks instead of you.

Now this I can help with. The only prerequisites for the Obtain Familiar feat are 4 knowledge arcana ranks which should be easy enough to get, and an arcane caster level of 3. As for the latter that could probably be solved via racial SLAs or a one level dip in sorcerer and taking Loredrake DWK. But what I suggest is a psicrystal, they can be obtained with a manifester level of 1 and they have the exact same amount of skill ranks as you which actually solves this as they would not get limited by the War Hulk ability. A single level dip into a manifester class such as Psychic warrior could allow you to do this which I think would be perfect for a War Hulk, also there is just psionic races with SLAs.

[weckar]

Would a familiar/psicrystal be able to use UMD for the purposes of Artificer item crafting in my stead, though? :smallconfused:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would a familiar/psicrystal be able to use UMD for the purposes of Artificer item crafting in my stead, though? :smallconfused:
I would say "no". You can cooperate on magic item crafting, sure, and your psicrystal can provide access to any powers it knows, including any accessed through UMD, but your psicrystal does not have the ability to craft magic items as an artificer, so it cannot make the UMD checks that that class feature requires.

[ShurikVch]

How, exactly, No Time to Think will interact with the Jack of All Trades?

What's about the Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)? Invest Skill Ranks to the max...

[ExLibrisMortis]

How, exactly, No Time to Think will interact with the Jack of All Trades?

What's about the Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)? Invest Skill Ranks to the max...
Item Familiar won't work. The rules say: "she may not have more points of bonus in a skill than she has ranks". So that's going to be a +0, I'm afraid.

Jack of All Trades won't work either, unless you allow it to overrule No Time to Think. The feat says you get 1/2 rank in all skills, which qualifies you for trained-only checks, but since you're treated as having 0 ranks (NTTT), you'd have to conclude that the feat is nullified.

[weckar]

This is quite a pickle. As it stands, the best options still appear to be Trait Removal or Incarnate Construct - both of which come with considerable drawbacks. (The former's cost, the latter's cost and loss of feats)

Although, I suppose you could maximise/empower Awaken Construct to have NEAT mental stats :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Waitaminute, what exactly makes NTTT a Special Quality? It's an Ex ability, but so is the Artificer's Item Creation, so it would not help a darn bit that way.

[ShurikVch]

Jack of All Trades won't work either, unless you allow it to overrule No Time to Think. The feat says you get 1/2 rank in all skills, which qualifies you for trained-only checks, but since you're treated as having 0 ranks (NTTT), you'd have to conclude that the feat is nullified.Wouldn't it depend on order of application? Whatever comes latest - trumps previous...



EDIT: Waitaminute, what exactly makes NTTT a Special Quality? It's an Ex ability, but so is the Artificer's Item Creation, so it would not help a darn bit that way.And this is why you cast Incarnate Construct before the 1st level of Artificer, but after the 1st level of War Hulk

Also, Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) will give you +4 insight bonus on Decipher Script, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks, and allow to make these checks untrained.

[weckar]

Hmm, I was frankly hoping to use the Artificer BAB as entry into War Hulk. Having to splash several effectively featureless levels before it is hardly appetising.

I suppose I may just be asking for something impossible here, which is fine. Good call on the Mage's Spectacles, though. If I can get some essentia from elsewhere I may not even technically NEED to maintain the ranks.

[ShurikVch]

Maybe try to pull "2in1" trick, such as Aleam Valassar, Paladin Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060609a)?

Also, how about the temporary buffs?

Wieldskill (Initiate of Gond 1, Player's Guide to Faerûn): "This spell imbues the subject with a touch of divine guidance, granting it a +5 competence bonus on a skill check of your choice. A subject that has no ranks in the designated skill functions as if it had 1/2 rank in the skill and therefore is considered trained in it"
Leech Ghost Skill (Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Ghostwalk): the bearer may use the ghost's skill ranks instead of his own as desired, regardless of the nature of the skill
Channel Celestial (Sanctified 7, Book of Exalted Deeds): "The mortal can use its own skills and the celestial's skills. If the mortal and the celestial have the same skill, use the skill of whichever has more ranks in the skill. Use the mortal's effective ability scores to determine skill modifiers." Channel a Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)...
Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)...

[weckar]

I prefer the Magic of Faerun Wieldskill (which is technically not superseded as that one is available to ALL clerics :smallbiggrin:).
Frankly, getting that imbued onto an item and adding the Mage's Spectacles soulmeld probably outclasses any skill ranks I would have had anyway.

[Darrin]

If you can get a caster level of 3 and Knowledge: Arcana 4, you could take Obtain Familiar. Your familiar has the same skill ranks as you do, but doesn't have No Time to Think. If you can finagle the Urban Companion ACF, that's a little sturdier than the typical familiar.

[weckar]

Again, the Familiar would be able to use my skills but not the class feature I need to make the roll for, so that point is moot. Sorry.

[Mr Adventurer]

Could you use Compression to reduce your size below Large, thus no longer qualifying for War Hulk and losing all features (including No Time To Think)?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wouldn't it depend on order of application? Whatever comes latest - trumps previous...
Well, order of application is something that happens within a calculation. For example, you can order x*2, +2, and -2 in various ways, such as (for x = 4) 4 +2 *2 -2 = 10 and 4 -2 *2 +2 = 6. In such a case, you can pick the order that is most advantageous to you.

However, these class features both set your effective ranks at a certain number. One says you have no ranks, with all that entails (can't use trained-only skills, +0 bonus, mainly). The other says you have 1/2 ranks, with all that entails (can use trained-only skills, still +0 bonus). There's no calculation involved, just two contradictory rules, which means we have to look at the specific versus general rules.

Is Jack of All Trades more specific than No Time to Think? In my opinion, it is not. JoAT is a feat anyone can pick up, and applies to all skills. NTtT is War Hulk-specific, and applies only to a subset of skills. In the case of War Hulks, NTtT does not apply to Sleight of Hand and Tumble, whereas JoAT does, hence being (slightly) more general.

[Blue Jay]

...There's no calculation involved, just two contradictory rules, which means we have to look at the specific versus general rules.

Is Jack of All Trades more specific than No Time to Think? In my opinion, it is not. JoAT is a feat anyone can pick up, and applies to all skills. NTtT is War Hulk-specific, and applies only to a subset of skills. In the case of War Hulks, NTtT does not apply to Sleight of Hand and Tumble, whereas JoAT does, hence being (slightly) more general.

My gut feeling is that this isn't how you're supposed to assess "general vs specific." The number of different skills it applies to is a pretty arbitrary standard. You could also pick "the number of characters the feat/ability applies to" or "the number of actual skill checks it will affect in play."

But really, general-vs-specific isn't about how many scenarios the rule applies to, it's about which one has a more specific effect when both of them apply to the same scenario.

For example, say I'm a War Hulk with No Time to Think and Jack of All Trades, and I'm about to make a Knowledge (arcana) check. Let's say I have 2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana).

First, let's check the rules governing my abilities. Here are some important lines:

A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills...

You can use any skill as if you had 1/2 rank in that skill. This benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that normally don’t allow untrained skill checks...
So, here's what I see:
I have 2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) because of my skill-point investment
I count as having 0 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) because of No Time to Think
I can make a skill check with Knowledge (arcana) as if I had 1/2 rank because of Jack of All Trades
It's pretty easy to see, from this perspective, that Jack of All Trades is the more specific rule, because it applies specifically to this scenario, whereas No Time to Think applies to this scenario only in a general sense.

Incidentally, Jack of All Trades isn't entirely clear about whether you count as trained when you make a check. Arguably, counting as having 1/2 rank means you count as trained, but I'm not really sure of that. So, I may still only be able to get common knowledge (DC 10 or lower) from my hypothetical Knowledge (arcana) check.

[Thurbane]

Isn't there a rule somewhere about player's applying effects in the order that is most beneficial for them? Not sure if that would help here.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So, here's what I see:
I have 2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) because of my skill-point investment
I count as having 0 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) because of No Time to Think
I can make a skill check with Knowledge (arcana) as if I had 1/2 rank because of Jack of All Trades
It's pretty easy to see, from this perspective, that Jack of All Trades is the more specific rule, because it applies specifically to this scenario, whereas No Time to Think applies to this scenario only in a general sense.
Well, you can easily make the argument in reverse. That's the point of swinging to a more general view: in any specific case, the order you're supposed to use is unclear. Ex.:
In keeping with the most general mechanic of skills, I have assigned two ranks to Knowledge (arcana).
As a more specific property of all skills, I can choose to make a skill check as if I had 1/2 rank, because of Jack of All Trades. In the case of Knowledge (arcana), I will not make this choice, because I already have the two ranks, but okay.
As a more specific property of the No Time to Think class feature, I count as having 0 ranks in all INT/WIS/CHA-based skills.
In the most specific case, Knowledge (arcana) is INT-based, therefore I count as having 0 ranks.
Hence I can't hit more than a DC 10, as per the untrained Knowledge rules.

I think "all skills [based on ability scores XYZ]" is more specific than "all skills", because there's that extra modifier in brackets.

[Blue Jay]

Well, you can easily make the argument in reverse. That's the point of swinging to a more general view: in any specific case, the order you're supposed to use is unclear. Ex.:
In keeping with the most general mechanic of skills, I have assigned two ranks to Knowledge (arcana).
As a more specific property of all skills, I can choose to make a skill check as if I had 1/2 rank, because of Jack of All Trades. In the case of Knowledge (arcana), I will not make this choice, because I already have the two ranks, but okay.
As a more specific property of the No Time to Think class feature, I count as having 0 ranks in all INT/WIS/CHA-based skills.
In the most specific case, Knowledge (arcana) is INT-based, therefore I count as having 0 ranks.
Hence I can't hit more than a DC 10, as per the untrained Knowledge rules.

I think "all skills [based on ability scores XYZ]" is more specific than "all skills", because there's that extra modifier in brackets.

Hmm.... I don't seem to have communicated that properly. It wasn't an argument about order of application: it was an argument about relevance to the specific scenario.

You're judging the specificity of a rule based on how many different things it affects. I'm arguing that this is nonsensical, because there are many ways to count how many different things are affected by a rule. Another example: NTtT can affect your ability to qualify for feats or prestige classes, and it can affect any abilities you have that might scale with your ranks in the affected skills. JoAT doesn't affect those things, because its effects are more specific: they only affect one thing.

As a second point, all the other things the rule affects are not relevant to you when you consult the rule: the only thing that's relevant is what the rule does in the scenario that you're trying to address. I make a Knowledge check, and for some reason the I have to consider whether the rules also affect my Tumble check? That doesn't make sense.

So, I'm judging the rule's specificity based on how specifically it addresses what you're doing when you consult the rule, or how relevant it is to the specific scenario.

No Time the Think tells me that I am considered to have 0 ranks in certain skills.
Jack of All Trades tells me I can make skill checks with any skill as if I had 1/2 rank.

If you put them together, there's actually no conflict between them: in general, I count as having 0 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), but when I make a Knowledge (arcana) check, I can choose to roll as if I had 1/2 rank.

-----

Put another way:
No Time to Think is a rule about effective skill ranks.
Jack of All Trades is a rule about effective skill ranks when making a skill check.

NTtT does not have specific language about skill checks: it instead has language about the more general concept of skill ranks.
JoAT has specific language about skill checks, so it's the more specific rule when you're making a skill check.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Put another way:
No Time to Think is a rule about effective skill ranks.
Jack of All Trades is a rule about effective skill ranks when making a skill check.

NTtT does not have specific language about skill checks: it instead has language about the more general concept of skill ranks.
JoAT has specific language about skill checks, so it's the more specific rule when you're making a skill check.
Right, I see your point. Okay, I can see JoAT working with NTtT, sure.

In that case, all that's left for the artificer to do is craft a +15 competence item of UMD and go to town.

[Thurbane]

Isn't there a rule somewhere about player's applying effects in the order that is most beneficial for them? Not sure if that would help here.

I can't find the exact citation for this, but from my research, seems to only apply to order in which bonuses/modifiers are applied.