Advice for a Cleric

[Haiiro_okami]

About to start a new campaign with some friends of mine, experience with the previous campaign and knowing we will 1. Be fighting undead on a fairly consistent basis, and 2. This group needs heals, last campaign I did with them we had a bunch of front-line fighters including a few glass cannons and just my poor alchemist to pick up the healing slack...So I decided to play a cleric! To be honest, I've usually run clerics as necromancers in the past and I'm mostly winging it with an amusing idea. Decided to run a Changeling Cleric of Cayden Cailean since the stats lined up quite nicely (except for the con penalty, which I rolled well enough to offset I think), and because IMO; Cayden Cailean is the best deity in PF (not necessarily mechanically-speaking, but in terms of the sheer amount of FUN and how tailor-made he is for the average adventuring party I've known...). Easy to fit into the start of the campaign (all just folks in a village, try to keep the meta to a minimum, playing them as the local barkeep). Anyways; I ended up running the Divine Paragon Archetype and choosing the charm domain as the focused domain and choosing the Strength domain as the one I don't gain powers off of, but do gain spells from (not missing much there, and I add some options that aren't on the cleric spell list), and chose "Hulking Changeling" as the hag trait. I figured I wasn't missing out on too much in terms of domain powers on the archetype and the potential fun of using the Deific Obedience boons.

Now on to the more challenging part for me...I've never been much of an optimizer (at least compared to friends of mine) but I've largely elected to use the 2 claw attack natural weapons (1d4) occasionally buffing those with Enlarge Self, and picking up a Morningstar or something to deal with the inevitable skeletons coming my way along with the standard Crossbow. We're allowed 4 traits (iirc, they have to be from different categories, and Golarion-specific regional traits are OUT since we're not on Golarion)...so far the only one I can really find that'd be useful would be Reactionary and something that hands out bluff or intimidate as a class skill (probably intimidate, would make more sense given her intended role as local barkeep), although any skill-granting ones will tax her very limited skill ranks per level...

Current stats and Feats

Name; Maeve Ravenwood (since I tend to like building references and/or inserting "meaningful" names into my characters...Maeve coming from an Old Irish name meaning "the cause of great joy" or "she who intoxicates" and Ravenwood being a reference to Marion Ravenwood from Raiders of the Lost Ark...)

Class: Cleric (Divine Paragon) 2

Race: Changeling

Stats:
Str 15
Dex 16 (I might flip Str and Dex since I am angling for a more...front-line build)
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 19
Cha 18

Current Feats
Deific Obedience (comes with the archetype)
Selective Channeling (considering swapping out for Channel Smite, Divine Protection, Improved Initiative, or Power Attack

Starting GP; 1,000 (none currently spent since I didn't do gear yet)

Would greatly appreciate any critique and/or advice on this character...I'm almost certainly sticking with the concept if not the class or exact details.

[CharonsHelper]

1. Pathfinder doesn't really do in-combat healing very well. So long as someone can use a wand of cure light, you're generally okay. Though - a cleric is still a great class & useful for removals (disease/poison/restoration etc.), undead, and buffing.

So - clerics are great - but dedicated healers are not. If you DO want a combat healer, I'd recommend playing an Oradin. (it's a build with several Life Oracle levels combined with Paladin - I can explain the combo in detail if you want) It's about the only way to do in-combat healing efficiently aside from the Heal spell.

2. If you're going front-line rather than casting focused, I would switch the 19 to STR. If you're not casting spells with DCs, your WIS doesn't matter that much. If you're going to mostly be casting healing (including status fixes) and buffs, getting a high DC is pretty worthless.

3. You should consider grabbing Heavy Armor Proficiency if you're going front-line. Eventually grab mithril full-plate for max AC.

[Haiiro_okami]

1. Pathfinder doesn't really do in-combat healing very well. So long as someone can use a wand of cure light, you're generally okay. Though - a cleric is still a great class & useful for removals (disease/poison/restoration etc.), undead, and buffing.

So - clerics are great - but dedicated healers are not. If you DO want a combat healer, I'd recommend playing an Oradin. (it's a build with several Life Oracle levels combined with Paladin - I can explain the combo in detail if you want) It's about the only way to do in-combat healing efficiently aside from the Heal spell.

2. If you're going front-line rather than casting focused, I would switch the 19 to STR. If you're not casting spells with DCs, your WIS doesn't matter that much. If you're going to mostly be casting healing (including status fixes) and buffs, getting a high DC is pretty worthless.

3. You should consider grabbing Heavy Armor Proficiency if you're going front-line. Eventually grab mithril full-plate for max AC.

Well, it's less dedicated healer, more "consistently available healer". Spent far too long with my Alchemist's Extracts of Cure Light Wounds and potions of cure moderate wounds made via this weird-ass corpse-liquefying machine we found in the dungeon as the only heals available. I'm fairly certain most of my spells cast are going to end up being heals/status fixes and buffs, but I'm fairly certain the highest I can actually get that STR score up to is 17 since that's the highest I rolled with the 19 coming from Changeling stat adjustments (+2 Charisma and Wisdom, -2 Constitution). That being said, a 17 is still +3 and I can always bump that up, not to mention taking my 15 or 16 from my existing Str or Dex scores and slapping it on my WIS score hardly hurts me after stat adjustments, bringing it up to a 17 or 18 respectively.

[Geddy2112]

Caydean is best boy deity for clerics due to the 0 level create alcohol spell. I mean, free booze out the gate is bonkers good.
As soon as you get 2nd level spells, start casting tears to wine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tears-to-wine/) and load a bag of holding full of magical smart wine. The volume of alcohol this spell can make is outright staggering, and it serves as a pretty zesty party buff. Plus you get to keep your deity happy when the party is constantly walking around legally intoxicated...

Right away, those stats are uber zesty. I know you want to focus on healing, but you honestly will have healing magic and positive energy coming out of your ears-it won't be much of an issue at higher levels. I would consider putting charisma as your lowest stat, as you want to go for a melee build and not a channel build. That still gives you a 15 with your uberstats, which is plenty strong. You won't be nuking undead or channel spamming, but you can still pick up channel feats(selective channel namely) and use it enough times a day to keep the party topped off. At higher levels, you want to get your deity's channel feat liberation channel, as it can be an emergency freedom of movement spell. You can always dump a spell into a cure spell, so don't worry about running out of healing or channel juice-you seriously have plenty. I second making strength your priority stat, followed by dex/con. Wis only needs to be 19 to cast every cleric spell, and if you are not concerned with DC's then 19 is fine, which you can get with a decent headband. If you get heavy armor prof mithral full plate allows for +3 dex, so 16 dex is perfect. If you just go breastplate for now, that is your max dex as is. Mithral breastplate and you might want to bump dex to 18-20 over the campaign.
So TLDR, I would use this stat Array
Str17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 15


You don't really have too many skill points to throw into more class skills-stick to sense motive, diplomacy, and a knowledge or two. For traits, consider your deity's trait fortified drinker-every time you drink you get a +2 to mind affecting saves for an hour. If you are drinking all the time, this is basically a constant bonus. If you are going to wear a breastplate and not heavy armor, armor expert on mithral breastplate is 0 ACP, less required for you since you are proficient with medium armor but still handy. Pick up power attack at level 3(can't get it at level 1), and improved initiative is never bad. Unless your campaign is undead heavy, you will never use channel smite. Mother's gift is okay for a feat since you plan on using your claws, but not great. The spell resistance, however weak, is still spell resistance so worth considering as well.

I agree that the spells from strength and scrubbing the domain powers is fine, but charm is simply not as good as travel as a domain. It is not bad if you are set on it, but travel, particularly for a melee build, is so much better. The charm person at 8th level from charm is too short a duration to usually matter, and the dazing touch is nice but only works on things equal or weaker than you, and only for 1 round-being a melee cleric, you want more oomph. Charm has some decent buff spells but travel has incredible spells and very useful domain powers.

[Kurald Galain]

1. Pathfinder doesn't really do in-combat healing very well.
Except with Channel Energy, which clerics excel at.

[Haiiro_okami]

Caydean is best boy deity for clerics due to the 0 level create alcohol spell. I mean, free booze out the gate is bonkers good.
As soon as you get 2nd level spells, start casting tears to wine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tears-to-wine/) and load a bag of holding full of magical smart wine. The volume of alcohol this spell can make is outright staggering, and it serves as a pretty zesty party buff. Plus you get to keep your deity happy when the party is constantly walking around legally intoxicated...

Right away, those stats are uber zesty. I know you want to focus on healing, but you honestly will have healing magic and positive energy coming out of your ears-it won't be much of an issue at higher levels. I would consider putting charisma as your lowest stat, as you want to go for a melee build and not a channel build. That still gives you a 15 with your uberstats, which is plenty strong. You won't be nuking undead or channel spamming, but you can still pick up channel feats(selective channel namely) and use it enough times a day to keep the party topped off. At higher levels, you want to get your deity's channel feat liberation channel, as it can be an emergency freedom of movement spell. You can always dump a spell into a cure spell, so don't worry about running out of healing or channel juice-you seriously have plenty. I second making strength your priority stat, followed by dex/con. Wis only needs to be 19 to cast every cleric spell, and if you are not concerned with DC's then 19 is fine, which you can get with a decent headband. If you get heavy armor prof mithral full plate allows for +3 dex, so 16 dex is perfect. If you just go breastplate for now, that is your max dex as is. Mithral breastplate and you might want to bump dex to 18-20 over the campaign.
So TLDR, I would use this stat Array
Str17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 15


You don't really have too many skill points to throw into more class skills-stick to sense motive, diplomacy, and a knowledge or two. For traits, consider your deity's trait fortified drinker-every time you drink you get a +2 to mind affecting saves for an hour. If you are drinking all the time, this is basically a constant bonus. If you are going to wear a breastplate and not heavy armor, armor expert on mithral breastplate is 0 ACP, less required for you since you are proficient with medium armor but still handy. Pick up power attack at level 3(can't get it at level 1), and improved initiative is never bad. Unless your campaign is undead heavy, you will never use channel smite. Mother's gift is okay for a feat since you plan on using your claws, but not great. The spell resistance, however weak, is still spell resistance so worth considering as well.

I agree that the spells from strength and scrubbing the domain powers is fine, but charm is simply not as good as travel as a domain. It is not bad if you are set on it, but travel, particularly for a melee build, is so much better. The charm person at 8th level from charm is too short a duration to usually matter, and the dazing touch is nice but only works on things equal or weaker than you, and only for 1 round-being a melee cleric, you want more oomph. Charm has some decent buff spells but travel has incredible spells and very useful domain powers.

Well, the good news is I'm not set on Charm as a domain (have honestly been looking through the others as well as subdomains for alternative options since on a meta-level I know the campaign is going to feature a lot of undead, but the DM doesn't want us metagaming too hard) I was tempted by Mother's Gift as well (and may still do that considering Selective Channeling in an undead-heavy campaign doesn't particularly seem worth taking).

Current stat readjustments after taking advice:
Str 17
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 17
Cha 18

Figure I'll take a breastplate for now, swap Charm to Travel (provides a nice amount of mobility) and take the Mother's Gift feat for the extra bit of damage for the claws...level 3 will see me taking Power Attack I think, but atm I'm not super willing to move the 16 in charisma elsewhere (Int doesn't matter quite as much) and having more channels available will likely matter very much in this campaign, what with all the undead and all.

...just one thing of note though, I do not have access to all books (although I can likely swipe a copy or obtain a PDF from someone else in the party) so I have no idea where you've got the Create Alcohol bit from (d20 PFSRD shows me exactly where Tears to Wine comes from and you'd better believe I'm abusing that mercilessly) as having that available as a 0-level spell would immediately liberate me from any concern for having a Craft (brewing) skill for game starting purposes and initial role justification on my part.

Edit-Archives of Nethys answered that question for me.

[Florian]

Would greatly appreciate any critique and/or advice on this character...I'm almost certainly sticking with the concept if not the class or exact details.

Support clerics come down to managing your resources more carefully than, say, a necromancer or bad touch build would.

That mostly means going for Summon Good Monster/Expanded Summon Monster for outsiders with a good range of SLAs and have the summons to the in-combat/heavy lifting when possible.

Take a look at the Angelfire Apostle and Herald Caller archetypes, two very simple way to work with Channel Energy to avoid prepping restorative spells and Summons, then weight this against picking Medium Armor Proficiency as your starting feat.

[Geddy2112]

Again, charm is not a bad domain, travel is just bonkers good. Strength is good for the buff spells considering you are going melee, but travel has incredible spells to boot, so it will be a balancing act there. Since you are in an undead heavy game, or lets say, not metagaming and just making a more channel focused cleric, improved channel is a strong feat choice. You are not making an undead nuker Sarenrae/Iomidae cleric that has glory and sun domains, and channel is not all that powerful against single undead enemies.

Selective channel is mainly for negative energy clerics, as they don't want to hit allies in the nuke. With spontaneous cure spell potential, you can heal in combat that way and save channeling for out of combat topping off. In general, it is better to kill the enemy vs heal an ally, the only exception being stopping an ally from dying and getting them back in the fight. Unless a lot of allies get downed in a single AoE, you generally only need to use a single cure spell to bring an ally to positive HP and consciousness, bringing their actions back into the fight.

Tears to wine makes gallons of alcohol per casting, and in a bag of holding it won't spoil. You turn the campaign into a game of slap the bag, and that scaling bonus to checks just gets ridiculous. A point of note is that you should use craft(alchemy) to make alcohol if you are going to have a rank in a craft, as alchemy can be used to make alcohol. Alchemy is used to make poisons, and alcohol is a poison...although profession brewer can also be used and is WIS based, but a rank in either is good enough for flavor. As a bartender, intimidate is not really something you do(that is the bouncer's job) instead you want to provide a kind ear to rambling drunks and charm the copper out of their wallets. Likewise, it is generally easier to talk down an angry drunk rather than threaten them. Sense motive and diplomacy are not only useful skills, they are class skills linked to key ability scores, and they are your bread and butter bartender tricks of the trade.

It won't increase your channel or your domain powers, but the brewkeeper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/brewkeeper/) prestiege class is thematic and worth looking into.

[Haiiro_okami]

Again, charm is not a bad domain, travel is just bonkers good. Strength is good for the buff spells considering you are going melee, but travel has incredible spells to boot, so it will be a balancing act there. Since you are in an undead heavy game, or lets say, not metagaming and just making a more channel focused cleric, improved channel is a strong feat choice. You are not making an undead nuker Sarenrae/Iomidae cleric that has glory and sun domains, and channel is not all that powerful against single undead enemies.

Selective channel is mainly for negative energy clerics, as they don't want to hit allies in the nuke. With spontaneous cure spell potential, you can heal in combat that way and save channeling for out of combat topping off. In general, it is better to kill the enemy vs heal an ally, the only exception being stopping an ally from dying and getting them back in the fight. Unless a lot of allies get downed in a single AoE, you generally only need to use a single cure spell to bring an ally to positive HP and consciousness, bringing their actions back into the fight.

Tears to wine makes gallons of alcohol per casting, and in a bag of holding it won't spoil. You turn the campaign into a game of slap the bag, and that scaling bonus to checks just gets ridiculous. A point of note is that you should use craft(alchemy) to make alcohol if you are going to have a rank in a craft, as alchemy can be used to make alcohol. Alchemy is used to make poisons, and alcohol is a poison...although profession brewer can also be used and is WIS based, but a rank in either is good enough for flavor. As a bartender, intimidate is not really something you do(that is the bouncer's job) instead you want to provide a kind ear to rambling drunks and charm the copper out of their wallets. Likewise, it is generally easier to talk down an angry drunk rather than threaten them. Sense motive and diplomacy are not only useful skills, they are class skills linked to key ability scores, and they are your bread and butter bartender tricks of the trade.

It won't increase your channel or your domain powers, but the brewkeeper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/brewkeeper/) prestiege class is thematic and worth looking into.

Well, you're dead-on right with pretty much all listed....
As far as I'm concerned, the ability to make alcohol for free (even if it isn't exactly Top Shelf stuff) is fantastic for both flavor and in-game purposes (why bother crafting when you can instantly make it with a simple spell?) kills any need for any sort of crafting...
As for skills, went with Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge Religion, Knowledge Planes, and Perception (made a class skill courtesy of a trait, and took the extra skill point favored class bonus...probably not the wisest choice, but then again I did take a few points off my wisdom...)

For traits;
Reactionary +2 Initiative
Fortified Drinker (flavorful, handy, and liable to come up during play)
Adopted (Dwarf; Militant Merchant, grants +1 to Perception and it becomes a class skill)
idk if I actually get another but will probably be looking to shore up a save or bump up an existing skill a bit more.

[Psyren]

Except with Channel Energy, which clerics excel at.

This - when optimized, Channel is a perfectly serviceable means of in-combat healing. Oradin is definitely better, but the cleric is far more powerful overall, so it's worth losing some healing ability to stay pure (especially if a cleric is what you want to play.)

As far as unlimited booze, there is also Tankard of the Drunken Hero and Flask of Endless Sake.

[Geddy2112]

Reactionary +2 Initiative
Fortified Drinker (flavorful, handy, and liable to come up during play)
Adopted (Dwarf; Militant Merchant, grants +1 to Perception and it becomes a class skill)
idk if I actually get another but will probably be looking to shore up a save or bump up an existing skill a bit more.

Iron liver is not mechanically the best trait, but it is incredibly fitting for your character. Stacking on your deific obedience you are basically immune to poison. Sacred conduit is a faith trait and increases your channel DC by 1. Two-world magic can nab prestidigitation, which is the bartender spell extrodinaire. Turns your average ale into any fancy craft beer you can imagine. Make it whatever temperature, color, texture, flavor, note, etc. Add fancy visual effects-replicate the fruit, mint, and other spices found in a fancy cocktail bar all in one spell. Plus all the other awesome uses of prestidigitation.

[Haiiro_okami]

Iron liver is not mechanically the best trait, but it is incredibly fitting for your character. Stacking on your deific obedience you are basically immune to poison. Sacred conduit is a faith trait and increases your channel DC by 1. Two-world magic can nab prestidigitation, which is the bartender spell extrodinaire. Turns your average ale into any fancy craft beer you can imagine. Make it whatever temperature, color, texture, flavor, note, etc. Add fancy visual effects-replicate the fruit, mint, and other spices found in a fancy cocktail bar all in one spell. Plus all the other awesome uses of prestidigitation.

Funny you mention that;
I was legitimately considering that for precisely the same reasons. (Mojitos without any reasonable access to the actual ingredients anyone?)
That and chilling/warming drinks.

[Eldariel]

This - when optimized, Channel is a perfectly serviceable means of in-combat healing. Oradin is definitely better, but the cleric is far more powerful overall, so it's worth losing some healing ability to stay pure (especially if a cleric is what you want to play.)

As far as unlimited booze, there is also Tankard of the Drunken Hero and Flask of Endless Sake.

You can also outsource healing to summons who can burn their actions doing it while you cast other stuff. Summon Good Monster combined with Sacred Summons can produce very reasonable healbots on most levels and eventually you can start Superior Summonings for multiples. SNAVII has a totally busted option with Ring of Natural Attunement: Kami (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic-items/rings/ring-of-natural-attunement-kami) in Zuishin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-zuishin), being a level 7 summon that not only casts Heal but also Breath of Life 3/day at range but that's of course a tad trickier to acquire as a Cleric (Mystic Past Life Samsaran works - domains are a bit annoying in that they limit the types of things the spells can bring, though whether Ring of Natural Attunement can add stuff to those is not answered by RAW anywhere).