Am I understanding necromancy?

[NecroDancer]

So I've noticed that necromancy class options in 3.5 usually are the following:

Necromancer Wizard = debuff spells

Necromancer Cleric = undead minions

Necromancer bard = dirgesinger PrC

Dread Nercomancer = all necromancy

Barbarian = making people dead

Is this a correct observation of how necromancy is used among the class? Did I miss any options? Is it possible for a wizard to make an undead army on par with a cleric?

Thanks for any clarification!

[Calthropstu]

Wizard necromancers have all the same minion creating spells as clerics, plus spells like finger of death and wail of the banshee. They also have the ability to swap out summon monster for summon undead just as clerics do.

[Psyren]

In the "other options" category you can also find:

1) Death Master

2) Necrocarnate

3) Anyone with access to the wizard or cleric list (e.g. Sha'ir and Favored Soul)



Barbarian = making people dead


That's just half the job, no? :smallbiggrin:

[weckar]

Back in older editions, Necromancy included healing. Considering the OP-ness of conjuration over necromancy I've seen tables houserule it back in there.
In general it really is just magic that changes or impedes the flow of life.

[Silva Stormrage]

The classes aren't necessarily a good way of breaking down necromancy into categories. For example a baseline wizard is actually far BETTER at animate dead than a cleric. Despite clerics getting access to things like descrate Wizards get access to the command undead spell. A single 2nd level spell cast per day can give you an absurd amount of extra undead under your control. Getting chain spell on it means you effectively have more than several clerics combined.

I would break down the important abilities for necromancy as such.
1: Rebuke/Command Undead: High Intelligence valuable minions
2: Command Undead (Spell): Useful for Animate Dead and High HD Mindless Minions
3: Debuffing: Have access to wizard spell list

Dirgesinger is also fairly bad as a PRC. If you want to go undead bard pick up the requiem feat and your standard inspire boosters.

Dread Necromancer is also probably worse at straight up necromancy spells compared to a wizard due to not having all the important spells on their list at first and only getting 5 from advanced knowledge. They do have most of the important ones though and they have all the important minionmancy abilities in their base kit. (Except for Desecrate for some reason)

Note #3 is not "Play a wizard" Clerics can get access via the Divine Magician ACF which grants them access to several important debuffs such as enervation and can also grant clerics the command undead spell. They have enough good necromancy debuffs on their own to qualify as debuffers with a few wizard necromancy spells

Really necromancy is interesting in the sense that a lot of it is based on items or out of combat combos. Rebuke/Command Undead is near useless without a Lyre of Restful Soul/Rod of Defiance and other boosters, Command Undead is a lot less effective if you don't have corpse crafter and similar boosts like Fell Energy Desecrate to make your fodder minions strong. For necromancy focus less on which "Class" is strong and focus on making sure your build has all the tools it needs to get the job done (This applies to most things in D&D but necromancy in particular I believe)

[Psyren]

The classes aren't necessarily a good way of breaking down necromancy into categories. For example a baseline wizard is actually far BETTER at animate dead than a cleric. Despite clerics getting access to things like descrate Wizards get access to the command undead spell. A single 2nd level spell cast per day can give you an absurd amount of extra undead under your control. Getting chain spell on it means you effectively have more than several clerics combined.

It's worth noting however that the spell can be dispelled, allowing a savvy enemy to rob you of your army (or a sizeable portion of it) in a single round. Rebuking, being supernatural, does not share this weakness.

[Silva Stormrage]

It's worth noting however that the spell can be dispelled, allowing a savvy enemy to rob you of your army (or a sizeable portion of it) in a single round. Rebuking, being supernatural, does not share this weakness.

Yes but boosting CL to prevent dispel is fairly easy. Ring of Enduring Arcana and Prayer Beads of Karma alone should be enough versus anything but purely dedicated dispellers.

Also being mindless dispelling your command undead doesn't actually accomplish much if you have already given them an order. I believe they just would follow the last order given correct?

[Psyren]

Yes but boosting CL to prevent dispel is fairly easy. Ring of Enduring Arcana and Prayer Beads of Karma alone should be enough versus anything but purely dedicated dispellers.

Sure, but it's never dispel-proof like Rebuke is. Natural 20s exist, as does Disjunction. Another disadvantage is that CU requires verbal commands, while Rebuke is mental - allowing opponents to react to your strategies or even interfere with them (by stopping your minions from hearing you.)

Basically I'm Just pointing out that the spell has weaknesses the Su ability does not.



Also being mindless dispelling your command undead doesn't actually accomplish much if you have already given them an order. I believe they just would follow the last order given correct?

That depends. Animate Dead:


If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.)

Presumably (and as you yourself suggested) you're casting CU on them to exceed your natural AD limit - so without the spell, they won't be able to follow your orders since you're already capped on minions elsewhere. You giving them orders would be like any other random person giving them orders.

[Silva Stormrage]

Sure, but it's never dispel-proof like Rebuke is. Natural 20s exist, as does Disjunction. Another disadvantage is that CU requires verbal commands, while Rebuke is mental - allowing opponents to react to your strategies or even interfere with them (by stopping your minions from hearing you.)

Basically I'm Just pointing out that the spell has weaknesses the Su ability does not.



That depends. Animate Dead:



Presumably (and as you yourself suggested) you're casting CU on them to exceed your natural AD limit - so without the spell, they won't be able to follow your orders since you're already capped on minions elsewhere. You giving them orders would be like any other random person giving them orders.


Ah sorry I see the confusion. I thought you were saying command undead was not worth using due to being vulnerable to dispel. Not that it had a weakness. Yes rebuke/command undead is much more reliably due to that. Still probably not worth using your limited rebuke undead pool to control zombies and skeletons rather than bone creatures and other high CR intelligent undead.

And for the following orders section what I meant is if this chain of event happens.
Pre battle: You cast chain command undead on your minions to control them
1: You tell your undead skeletons to attack foe X
2: Foe X casts dispel removing your command undead spell on several of your undead
3: You can no longer issue new orders to those undead as you have no control over them, however since they are mindless they don't just suddenly stop in place they will continue following their last order "Attack foe X" and will do so until they can't do so anymore. Frankly I could see them just attacking the corpse until you reestablish control.

If they get dispelled before you give them a solid command then I would probably just rule that they stand still. I admit I think this is a vague area in the rules but I think it's how it's supposed to work.

[lbuttitta]

Sure, but it's never dispel-proof like Rebuke is. Natural 20s exist, as does Disjunction. Another disadvantage is that CU requires verbal commands, while Rebuke is mental - allowing opponents to react to your strategies or even interfere with them (by stopping your minions from hearing you.)
Technically, dispel checks aren't subject to the natural-20s rule. Also, is Rebuke Undead really mental? I always thought it was verbal. Oh well, you learn something new every day.

[Segev]

Command undead is great for controlling large, high-HD mindless undead. It's okay for controlling smaller-HD undead above your animate dead cap. Where arcane necromancers fall short of clerics is in the intelligent minions department, and in controlling swarms.

The undead swarms - even mindless ones - are immune to command undead because of its single-target nature. You can technically animate them with animate dead, but that's a precious resource of HD to shepherd. Control undead affects HD rather than individuals, so can be used, but at 1 min./level, it's not very good. It's also equally not very good with intelligent undead, because even if they fail the save, they're mad as heck after something less than 20 minutes. For a 7th level spell slot. Rebuke/Command, the cleric power, brings swarms and intelligent undead into your permanent thrall. (It's one of the nice things about the PF Wizard-Necromancer specialization. Though PF loses access to Chain Spell for your command undead unless your DM is permitting 3.5 material.)

In 3.5, there's also Undead Leadership, and normal Leadership. Both technically can get undead followers and even cohorts, though Undead Leadership gives a boost to the Leadership Score for those. I think you technically can even have both. Any magically-inclined Undead Leadership-bearer can justify his minions as other rituals/magics at his disposal, though you can get it without a lick of magical ability.


Rebuke/Command Undead is near useless without a Lyre of Restful Soul/Rod of Defiance and other boosters

What are those from, and what do they do?

[Silva Stormrage]

Command undead is great for controlling large, high-HD mindless undead. It's okay for controlling smaller-HD undead above your animate dead cap. Where arcane necromancers fall short of clerics is in the intelligent minions department, and in controlling swarms.

The undead swarms - even mindless ones - are immune to command undead because of its single-target nature. You can technically animate them with animate dead, but that's a precious resource of HD to shepherd. Control undead affects HD rather than individuals, so can be used, but at 1 min./level, it's not very good. It's also equally not very good with intelligent undead, because even if they fail the save, they're mad as heck after something less than 20 minutes. For a 7th level spell slot. Rebuke/Command, the cleric power, brings swarms and intelligent undead into your permanent thrall. (It's one of the nice things about the PF Wizard-Necromancer specialization. Though PF loses access to Chain Spell for your command undead unless your DM is permitting 3.5 material.)

In 3.5, there's also Undead Leadership, and normal Leadership. Both technically can get undead followers and even cohorts, though Undead Leadership gives a boost to the Leadership Score for those. I think you technically can even have both. Any magically-inclined Undead Leadership-bearer can justify his minions as other rituals/magics at his disposal, though you can get it without a lick of magical ability.



What are those from, and what do they do?

Libris Mortis and MiC I believe. They both reduce turn resistance by 4 for nearby undead which can reduce them to negative turn resistance. The Lyre requires a perform check to work and the rod is a mace that does so passively. This is HUGE for rebuke undead because rebuke undead only checks an undead's turn resistance when the ability is first used. If an undead creature has 10 HD and 0 turn resistance these two items let you treat it as a 2 HD undead for the purposes of rebuke/command undead. Even after it's turn resistance goes back to normal you still have control over it and it still only counts as 2 HD for your undead pool. It has to work this way or else bolster undead which just boosts undead's turn resistance would constantly free undead from your own control when used on your own rebuked minions. Obviously this is not how that ability is supposed to work.

Frankly combined they make rebuke undead absurdly good and as a DM I often ban one of them. They are absurdly cheap as well (~3.6k for the Lyre and ~9.6 for the Rod).

[RoboEmperor]

Clerics have access to command undead via the necromancer domain. Get the spontaneous domain alternative class feature and you can cast command undead spontaneously and as much as you want.

Clerics are superior to wizards concerning undead. Planar Binding line of spells grant you access to free at-will animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead, and the only way of maintaining absolute control over the greater undead without passing endless charisma checks is rebuke undead. Through planar binding wizards also have access to desecrate.

So to summarize:
1. Both have access to desecrate
2. Both have access to command undead.
3. Clerics get Animate Dead 2 levels earlier than wizards. Therefore Clerics are superior here.
4. Only clerics have rebuke undead, therefore Clerics are superior here.
5. Outsiders obtained with cleric levels are always good (except Lilitus, but they don't have rebuke) which means no rebuke undead for wizards.
6. Clerics have access to inflict spells from level 1. I don't know if there are outsiders with at-will inflict spells, all other negative energy abilities give temp hp instead of actually healing the undead.

Conclusion: Clerics are better than wizards in all aspects for undead minionmancy, both with and without use of outsiders via planar binding.

[Segev]

Libris Mortis and MiC I believe. They both reduce turn resistance by 4 for nearby undead which can reduce them to negative turn resistance. The Lyre requires a perform check to work and the rod is a mace that does so passively. This is HUGE for rebuke undead because rebuke undead only checks an undead's turn resistance when the ability is first used. If an undead creature has 10 HD and 0 turn resistance these two items let you treat it as a 2 HD undead for the purposes of rebuke/command undead. Even after it's turn resistance goes back to normal you still have control over it and it still only counts as 2 HD for your undead pool. It has to work this way or else bolster undead which just boosts undead's turn resistance would constantly free undead from your own control when used on your own rebuked minions. Obviously this is not how that ability is supposed to work.

Frankly combined they make rebuke undead absurdly good and as a DM I often ban one of them. They are absurdly cheap as well (~3.6k for the Lyre and ~9.6 for the Rod).

Huh. I’ll need to examine the rebuke rules to see if negative turn resistance really reduces effective HD for purposes of command cap. I didn’t think turn resistance made undead take more of your control cap, just changed the target numbers you had to deal with when trying to turn or rebuke them.


Clerics have access to command undead via the necromancer domain. Get the spontaneous domain alternative class feature and you can cast command undead spontaneously and as much as you want.

Clerics are superior to wizards concerning undead. Planar Binding line of spells grant you access to free at-will animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead, and the only way of maintaining absolute control over the greater undead without passing endless charisma checks is rebuke undead. Through planar binding wizards also have access to desecrate.

So to summarize:
1. Both have access to desecrate
2. Both have access to command undead.
3. Clerics get Animate Dead 2 levels earlier than wizards. Therefore Clerics are superior here.
4. Only clerics have rebuke undead, therefore Clerics are superior here.
5. Outsiders obtained with cleric levels are always good (except Lilitus, but they don't have rebuke) which means no rebuke undead for wizards.
6. Clerics have access to inflict spells from level 1. I don't know if there are outsiders with at-will inflict spells, all other negative energy abilities give temp hp instead of actually healing the undead.

Conclusion: Clerics are better than wizards in all aspects for undead minionmancy, both with and without use of outsiders via planar binding.
Sadly true. I like my minionmancers to be arcane, so this fact always bugs me.

[Silva Stormrage]

Huh. I’ll need to examine the rebuke rules to see if negative turn resistance really reduces effective HD for purposes of command cap. I didn’t think turn resistance made undead take more of your control cap, just changed the target numbers you had to deal with when trying to turn or rebuke them.


Sadly true. I like my minionmancers to be arcane, so this fact always bugs me.

From the D20srd on Special Abilities

"Turn Resistance
Some creatures (usually undead) are less easily affected by the turning ability of clerics or paladins.

Turn resistance is an extraordinary ability.

When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, added the appropriate bonus to the creature’s Hit Dice total."

It just says it's added to the creature's HD total. One thing thats actually interesting is that it does NOT say value it says bonus which in D&D explicitly means positive. However, Lyre specifically says it can reduce TR below 0 reducing undead's HD total so I think this is a case of specific overrides general.

So it does mention command undead when discussing the increased HD and Command Undead simply states you can have no more HD of undead than your rebuking level under your control. It seems pretty straightforward to me that if you command a creature with turn resistance the turn resistance value is added to the HD for the command pool.

Still if a DM ruled otherwise I think there is enough leeway in the RAW to rule that.

[ShurikVch]

Necromancer bard = dirgesinger PrCDirgesinger is a meh - Song of Awakening works only as long as you're performing, and limited by 1 creature
Honestly, Icesinger from Dragon #314 may work better - it's blatantly elemental-oriented PrC, but Cold-Death relation is fairly traditional; take the Lord of the Uttercold, Requiem, and Song of the Dead feats



Barbarian = making people deadEspecially if this Barbarian takes Undead Leadership and Death Devotion



Did I miss any options?Invocations: The Dead Walk and Utterdark Blast
Psionics: Stygian power line, Death mantle, Stygian Archon feat, Grim Psion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b), and Subverted Psion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a)



Is it possible for a wizard to make an undead army on par with a cleric?Yes; Pale Master is arcane-oriented PrC, and Deathless Master's Touch allow you to have NI HD of Zombies - in addition to your "normal" limit

[Segev]

From the D20srd on Special Abilities

"Turn Resistance
Some creatures (usually undead) are less easily affected by the turning ability of clerics or paladins.

Turn resistance is an extraordinary ability.

When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, added the appropriate bonus to the creature’s Hit Dice total."

It just says it's added to the creature's HD total. One thing thats actually interesting is that it does NOT say value it says bonus which in D&D explicitly means positive. However, Lyre specifically says it can reduce TR below 0 reducing undead's HD total so I think this is a case of specific overrides general.

So it does mention command undead when discussing the increased HD and Command Undead simply states you can have no more HD of undead than your rebuking level under your control. It seems pretty straightforward to me that if you command a creature with turn resistance the turn resistance value is added to the HD for the command pool.

Still if a DM ruled otherwise I think there is enough leeway in the RAW to rule that.
It says "when resolving." It doesn't say "when calculating how many HD of undead you control." While you can force a reading of the RAW to say what you want, I feel it's a stretch. More of a stretch than the reading that seems like the RAI, where the Turn Resistance only makes it harder to actually affect them, not harder (or easier, in the case of negative turn resistance) to keep them under control.

Arguably, "when resolving" does mean it matters for whether or not they get turned rather than destroyed, or rebuked rather than commanded, but, even still, that wouldn't change how many HD of undead you're controlling with the command function.

[Silva Stormrage]

It says "when resolving." It doesn't say "when calculating how many HD of undead you control." While you can force a reading of the RAW to say what you want, I feel it's a stretch. More of a stretch than the reading that seems like the RAI, where the Turn Resistance only makes it harder to actually affect them, not harder (or easier, in the case of negative turn resistance) to keep them under control.

Arguably, "when resolving" does mean it matters for whether or not they get turned rather than destroyed, or rebuked rather than commanded, but, even still, that wouldn't change how many HD of undead you're controlling with the command function.

Huh I really wasn't trying to stretch the reading there. It seemed pretty clear cut that "Resolving" the command undead attempt automatically included calculating how many HD the undead took up in the command undead pool. Just like if you tried to command an undead the action isn't over until he is actually in your pool.

Still I think thats up to the individual DM to rule.