Point buy modification.

[Sivarias]

So I'm looking to start a new group soon. That being said I swore of rolling stats on my last campaign when yet AGAIN I had one dude with no less than 4 stats above fifteen before racial and one player with one sixteen after.

Point buy is fair. That being said I also don't like it's limits. From my time on the other side of the board I know how much fun it is to have an eighteen at level one and I want my players to have that option. Are there any good modifiers out there? I'm thinking a sixteen costs 12 and I give them a 30 point buy.

Is that fair? Too little/much? Are there better systems out there?

[JellyPooga]

I've always liked the following;

All stats start at 8
1pt per point up to 13
2pts per point 14-15
3pts 16-17
4pts 18

Giving you;
8 0pts
9 1pt
10 2pts
11 3pts
12 4pts
13 5pts
14 7pts
15 9pts
16 12pts
17 15pts
18 19pts

30pt buy using this system gives a good "heroic" baseline. I actually prefer 25-27pts, but I like a relatively low powered game. 35pts is enough to make characters feel powerful without skewing things too much, but anything over that just...I dunno, feels like cheating? I suppose.

[Biggstick]

I have a document that I hand (or send digitally) to my Players before our Session 0. It has this in regards to Point Buy and Stats.

-----------------------
Ability Score Generation. Players will use Improved Standard Array (8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16), or 34 point buy. Minimum score is an 8, maximum bought score is a 16. No rolling for ability scores.

8 - 0
9 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 7
15 - 9
16 - 12

Standard Racial Ability Score bonuses. Races other than Mountain Dwarf, Human Variant, and Half Elf have three +1's instead of their natural ability score bonuses that can be placed into any ability score. Any racial negative scores such as Orc's minus to Intelligence is ignored/removed from the race. They can be spread out to three different ability scores, or stacked to a maximum of +2 in one ability score and +1 in another ability score. This is to exemplify that not every Gnome is intelligent just as not every Dragonborn is strong. Any race can be just as good as the next race at something they want to excel at. If you’d like to play a Mountain Dwarf or Half Elf with the bonuses granted here, you can use the three +1’s instead of what’s given in the book. Humans will use stat bonuses provided by the PHB either through Standard Human or Human Variant.
-----------------------

Personally, I'm a huge fan of running things this way. There are plenty of ways you can build it, but typically, I see Players end up with something along the lines of an 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 8. I'm a big fan, as it encourages Players to play races in a class that might not typically be done, like a Gnome Barbarian, or a Dwarven Wizard, or an Elven Paladin. It also opens up Players to being able to grab a feat they might not normally choose, as they can start with an 18 in their primary stat, removing the "requirement" to put your first ASI in your primary stat.

[Talamare]

Check out my Variant Races

The basic idea is that every race starts with a Racial +1 to a single stat
Then they get an Ability Score Increase OR Feat at level 1

This gives you a tremendous amount of versatility for creating characters

You could go 15 on a stat, pick a race that has +Stat, then spend your ASI on the same stat. Which would give you 18 starting stat.


The best part about this is that since the Racial is only a +1, you could have class/race combinations that are subpar without it feeling punishing
Since currently if a Race does not suit a Class, you might be losing upto 3 stats for the class. However with this simple change, at worst you're losing a single stat.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

We roll three stats.

We then take those rolled stats and subtract them from 27, 25, and 23 to give balanced stats.

So if you roll an 18, you can subtract it from any of the above numbers.

IE 23-18 = 5
or you could do 27-18=9

[Talamare]

We roll three stats.

We then take those rolled stats and subtract them from 27, 25, and 23 to give balanced stats.

So if you roll an 18, you can subtract it from any of the above numbers.

IE 23-18 = 5
or you could do 27-18=9

I roll a 3, I now have 24 Strength Con Dexterity Charisma at level 1

Balanced!

Edit - Oh wait, Racial Bonus... 26

[Sigreid]

As long as whatever you do is the same for all players it should be fine.

Nitpick because it's a bit of a pet peeve. Everyone rolling the same number of dice is far, it's just unlikely to be equal. Everyone has the same exact chance for each potential array, so it's fair. Equal and fair are not necessarily the same thing. Though everyone using the same point buy or array is both fair and equal.

[Talamare]

As long as whatever you do is the same for all players it should be fine.

Nitpick because it's a bit of a pet peeve. Everyone rolling the same number of dice is far, it's just unlikely to be equal. Everyone has the same exact chance for each potential array, so it's fair. Equal and fair are not necessarily the same thing. Though everyone using the same point buy or array is both fair and equal.

Everyone has a 'fair' chance, and I guess that is your nitpick

but it doesn't mean it will result in fair gameplay afterwards
which is what people mean when they say it isn't fair

[Sigreid]

Everyone has a 'fair' chance, and I guess that is your nitpick

but it doesn't mean it will result in fair gameplay afterwards
which is what people mean when they say it isn't fair

I understand that the desire is for equal. It's really a semantics nitpick about words actually meaning what they mean.

[hymer]

I'll add the suggestion of making a series of arrays which the players can choose between. Here (http://nanmehtar.wikispaces.com/Stat+Arrays)'s the one I'm using in my current campaign. It made it a lot easier to a few of my players, who don't like fiddling with numbers. And 5e point buy is generally pretty locked anyway, so you're not missing out on much.

[Anonymouswizard]

I roll a 3, I now have 24 Strength Con Dexterity Charisma at level 1

Balanced!

Edit - Oh wait, Racial Bonus... 26

Depending on the method, congragulations you're one of two hundred and sixteen characters (3d6) or one thousand two hundred and ninety six characters (4d6b3). Unlikely enough for 4d6b3 that I'd probably allow it if I saw the rolls.

To OP, if you have 3.X's point buy system that should work fine. It's essentially 5e's point buy extended up to 18s, but in 5e going that high at level one isn't exactly the best move if you're taking two or more ASIs.

[Sivarias]

Do people take ASI's? My old group were all over feats. Like that one Ranger who did 30 damage at level 3/4 without a crit.

[JPicasso]

Just change it to include an 18.

instead of (8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16)

Make it (8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 18). No bonuses to carry over 18.

done and done. don't make it complicated. This keeps stats very playable and every character can shine in a single space with their totally cool 18.

[Pex]

We roll three stats.

We then take those rolled stats and subtract them from 27, 25, and 23 to give balanced stats.

So if you roll an 18, you can subtract it from any of the above numbers.

IE 23-18 = 5
or you could do 27-18=9


I roll a 3, I now have 24 Strength Con Dexterity Charisma at level 1

Balanced!

Edit - Oh wait, Racial Bonus... 26

That's the 27-25-23 method I've talked about before. What your missing is built in the system that the minimum roll is 7, so if you roll a 3 it becomes a 7. Also, the max score before racial bonuses is 18. If you have a 7 you can't do 27 - 7 = 20. You would do 25 - 7 = 18 instead. There's also a free additional +2 to tag onto any score, again max 18.

With racial bonuses you can have a 20, but that's allowed by 5E. Dice rolling is the official method, get lucky in rolling an 18, and put it in a stat where the racial bonus is +2 such as ST for dragonborn and mountain dwarves.

If you roll 7, 12, 15

27 - 12 = 15

25 - 7 = 18

23 - 15 = 8

8 + 2 = 10

Array before arranging and racials is 18, 15, 15, 12, 10, 7

[Talamare]

That's the 27-25-23 method I've talked about before. What your missing is built in the system that the minimum roll is 7, so if you roll a 3 it becomes a 7. Also, the max score before racial bonuses is 18. If you have a 7 you can't do 27 - 7 = 20. You would do 25 - 7 = 18 instead. There's also a free additional +2 to tag onto any score, again max 18.

With racial bonuses you can have a 20, but that's allowed by 5E. Dice rolling is the official method, get lucky in rolling an 18, and put it in a stat where the racial bonus is +2 such as ST for dragonborn and mountain dwarves.

If you roll 7, 12, 15

27 - 12 = 15

25 - 7 = 18

23 - 15 = 8

8 + 2 = 10

Array before arranging and racials is 18, 15, 15, 12, 10, 7
That's a whole lot of rules, but at least it covers the obvious exploit that would happen fairly regularly

@other guy 216 chance... hah
Don't you know, when 'some' people are allowed to roll for stat, they always win the lottery and end up with characters with 4-5 stats at 17 or over

[Percy_Ikana]

I would like to use the array method more, the once i used it went pretty well. I have each player roll a set of stats (r3d6 six times, in order), and fill them into a 6x6 matrix. I roll any extra (i refuse to run games for more than six players, so overfilling isn't a problem for me, I'm not sure what a solution would be. perhaps just take 36/players, and have them roll that many?) The players may them choose from any row, column, or diagonal, read in either direction.
It can produce a clearly superior set of stats, or it can have stats good for different things, but, everyone is drawing from the same pool, and everyone gets to roll (since many players like to).

[Brawnspear]

I use a variant of something I stole from a previous DM, it can lead to quirky or op character depending on base rolls, but everything ends up playable. It also is better for people who want to be encouraged by their dice rolls as to what to play, instead of creating a character beforehand.


Roll 3d6 down the line

Apply to your Str, then Dex, then Con etc.
If your net bonuses are -1 or lower, you may throw them out and roll again.
You now have 17 points to place as you will

Max of 16
Your rolls can be up to 18, but you can only buy up to 16
Point Values

4-13: 1 pt each
14-15: 2pts each
16: 3 pts
You may swap pairs of scores

Each swap costs you 1 pt
Mental Stats Require a minimum of 5
No minimums for Physical Stats

[mer.c]

This isn't really related to point-buy modification, but since we're off the OP I'll just share the next method I'm trying out.

Everyone rolls X stat arrays (probably between 4, give or take). I put them into a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet uses a simple VLOOKUP to select the median 33% of the rolled arrays by their Point Buy value. Anyone can use any array from that 33%, with free rearrangement of numbers. No limit on how many players can pick one array.

Not sure what method we'll use to roll the numbers, but 4d6 drop lowest is probably the safest.

I'm hoping this gives a good range of distributions with their own quirks like straight-up rolling, while keeping power level between PCs much more even like point buy or standard array. My guess is that weighting it by the point buy value will give some middle-of-the-road arrays with others that have a swingier distribution, while cutting out all the outliers. It's of course more work-intensive, but most of it is fun (we all like rolling stats), and while I'm doing my spreadsheet everyone else can watch YouTube on our TV or something. Or talk, God forbid. :smallwink:

[Sivarias]

I'm glad I was able to spark a discussion. There are a lot of cool rules here, but ultimately this is a new group for me and I'm trying to KISS it. So far I'm looking at a thirty point buy with sixteen

[Sigreid]

I'm glad I was able to spark a discussion. There are a lot of cool rules here, but ultimately this is a new group for me and I'm trying to KISS it. So far I'm looking at a thirty point buy with sixteen

That should work fine. I would think you could even skipp point buy and give an attribute total to be divided up, max 16.

[Theodoxus]

1) For my groups, when rolling, each player rolls a set, then the group decides which set they'll all use as their array. Keeps the "lottery winners" from hogging the spotlight from the "my dice want to see me dead" types.

2) I'm currently playing in a group where the DM gave us 2 options for arrays:

16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10; no racial bonuses, except standard humans get 3 +1's, Mountain Dwarves can add +1 to either strength or con, and half-elves get +1 to Cha.

The second option is either an array of: 15, 13, 12, 12, 11, 10 or 14, 13, 13, 12, 11, 11, and you can take normal race bonuses.

His reasoning is, the first array allows any race to have a 16 in their "primary" stat. So you could have a half-orc wizard, a halfling barbarian or a dwarf bard without being +1 behind everyone else. The second set of arrays are for more 'traditional' favored classes for races.

Due to their nature of not having a native 'dump' stat of 8, they make any character slightly less MAD capable, while also not creating any potentially large issues of unoptimized stat allocation.

[The Shadowdove]

Nah just leave it as is. There is no "underpowered", just players with stat envy when they power game with fat beginning stats.

If your players get upset because they want to Max multiple or above average a handful of stats, but dump one or two, it's their decision.

The most I've seen changed without giving players too much pampering is making 10 the lowest stat or doing 30 point buy.

IMO, it's more impressive to take the existing rules and make your character awesome by totally owning any high or low stats by including them in their background / personality/roleplay.

A character built to only be good at one thing, a one trick pony, is always going to feel like they aren't as universally capable than a character who is naturally more diverse. Or even when compared to one who makes up for their lack of ability in one area by including it within their roleplay.

[Sivarias]

I'm on mobile so forgive the lack of quotes. As a DM and as a player I feel like everyone should have the option of one eighteen at level one. To represent that ONE thing that they do REALLY well

[The Shadowdove]

I'm on mobile so forgive the lack of quotes. As a DM and as a player I feel like everyone should have the option of one eighteen at level one. To represent that ONE thing that they do REALLY well

I've done that before. But really that's what a 16 is. Considering a commoner is 10's across the board and a 12-13 would represent something they did REALLY well. It isn't surprising that someone who later becomes an archmage started as a 16, something that an average person could only dream of having.

Using standard pointbuy tends to make characters feel more legitimate, and as a result as if higher stats are more easily earned. Knowing that you've overcome monsters without any sort of favoritism or edge to aid you from the beginning.

All in all, if the point is for players to feel more powerful and special from the start there isn't really any harm. If they whomp monsters too hard, give them an extra bit of health or damage as per usual. Create higher than normal difficulty classes so players don't walk all over a standard adventure because they were given the option of having a stat that would normally take 4 levels to obtain.

My players and as a player I felt standard rules and pointbuy were excessively limiting in comparison to rolled stats. We feared the lack of an 18 at character creation as if it would gimp us. Then we started attending other tables as well as Adventure's League and realized just how little we were Limited by stats that are more well rounded.

It came as a big surprise actually, and now they feel more accomplished when they kill a dragon or demonprince despite having had less than munchkin characters as they used to prefer. We go from a home game to Adventure's League format a few times a week sometimes and feel no despair at not having our nonlegal characters with their homebrew items.

[Pex]

Liking to have an 18 at first level is not "munchkin". It is a powerful thing to have, but it's not an inherently bad thing to have. You are not a better player for not having an 18 at first level. It is not a necessary requirement to have an 18 at first level. It is not an atrocious crime against gaming to have an 18 at first level.

[The Shadowdove]

Liking to have an 18 at first level is not "munchkin". It is a powerful thing to have, but it's not an inherently bad thing to have. You are not a better player for not having an 18 at first level. It is not a necessary requirement to have an 18 at first level. It is not an atrocious crime against gaming to have an 18 at first level.

And I'm in complete agreement.

[Talamare]

Liking to have an 18 at first level is not "munchkin". It is a powerful thing to have, but it's not an inherently bad thing to have. You are not a better player for not having an 18 at first level. It is not a necessary requirement to have an 18 at first level. It is not an atrocious crime against gaming to have an 18 at first level.

Feel there was quite a bit of hyperbole in this statement.

You're not a better player for having 18 either.
Since it's not like the 18 is some form of reward for being a better player, it was just arbitrary luck

[Jgosse]

Why not turn this(8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16).
Into this (10, 12, 14, 15,16, 18).

[Pex]

Why not turn this(8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16).
Into this (10, 12, 14, 15,16, 18).

Personal bias, more odd scores are needed or else Humans get screwed. Variant Human at least gets the feat and extra skill, but starting with 10 12 14 15 16 18 to get 11 13 15 16 17 19 is game math meaningless of difference while non-humans can start with a 20 if they put their +2 with the 18 or two 18s if they put their +2 to the 16 in addition to their racial goodies. The normal Human catches up at level 4 in the array, but the non-human can seriously consider a feat remaining ahead of the game. If you don't want to give odd scores and keep the array then Variant Human should be the only Human.

[Jama7301]

Someone smarter than me, can you help me out? How would an 18/20 at level 1 throw off advancement and low level CRs, if at all?

[Talamare]

Someone smarter than me, can you help me out? How would an 18/20 at level 1 throw off advancement and low level CRs, if at all?

A lot more feats for players
A lot more raw power for players (roughly 20-30% stronger)

Which might mean that either the players won't be challenged... which can get boring
Or the DM needs to find a way to challenge the players... which will just escalate encounters, which makes things a lot more precarious... and defeats the purpose of you being stronger


Not to mention there might feel like there is less development, if you feel your character is already the strongest/smartest/fastest of the land when he was basically born

[Pex]

A lot more feats for players
A lot more raw power for players (roughly 20-30% stronger)

Which might mean that either the players won't be challenged... which can get boring
Or the DM needs to find a way to challenge the players... which will just escalate encounters, which makes things a lot more precarious... and defeats the purpose of you being stronger


Not to mention there might feel like there is less development, if you feel your character is already the strongest/smartest/fastest of the land when he was basically born

More power doesn't mean that's a bad thing. Players are more inclined to take feats. That is not something to be discouraged.

The game is already designed with having an 18 or 20 at first level as a possibility since dice rolling is the default method. You can be lucky to roll an 18 and if you so choose play a race with a +2 modifier to add on to make it 20. Bounded accuracy keeps things in check.

Gaining levels is a means of character development for game mechanics. Achieving campaign goals is the means of character development for roleplaying mechanics.

[Sivarias]

The funny thing is that some of you guys have missed the point a little. My complaint wasn't that the point buy doesn't go to eighteen. My complaint was that it didn't go to sixteen so even w/ racial you can't get an eighteen at first level.

[Anonymouswizard]

Liking to have an 18 at first level is not "munchkin". It is a powerful thing to have, but it's not an inherently bad thing to have. You are not a better player for not having an 18 at first level. It is not a necessary requirement to have an 18 at first level. It is not an atrocious crime against gaming to have an 18 at first level.

Honestly? With how D&D point buy works I'm not certain getting at 18 at 1st level is worth it even for casters. It certainly was in 3.X, where SoDs and SoLs ruled, but not only are those rarer in 5e there's more inventive to have all around high stats then there was before. In 3.X and 4e there were only three stats that mattered for defence, while now all six in theory matter (although we know that Intelligence and Charisma are the least important).

Seriously, with a bit of work 5e could have made decent all around stats important for everybody. Here's hoping 6e will manage that (yes, I'm expecting a 6e at some point, although maybe not for another 5-10 years).


The funny thing is that some of you guys have missed the point a little. My complaint wasn't that the point buy doesn't go to eighteen. My complaint was that it didn't go to sixteen so even w/ racial you can't get an eighteen at first level.

Eh, I think it would honestly be better to give the ability to buy to 18 but cap 1st level stats there after racial bonuses. But your complaint is easy to fix, mainly because 'point buy to 18' has existed since about two days after 5e was released.

I would like to note that ever since 3.X archetyping in D&D has been on the rise, it was slightly stronger in 4e because of the maths but even the rules in 5e don't expect you to play a class without a bonus to the primary stat. Below I've tallied the primary stats for each PhB class and the number of (sub)races that get a bonus to that stat.

Classes
Strength: 3
Dexterity: 4
Constitution: 0
Intelligence: 1
Wisdom: 4
Charisma: 4

Races
Strength: 3
Dexterity: 5
Constitution: 5
Intelligence: 3
Wisdom: 2
Charisma: 5
Any: 2

Notice: two stats with the highest number of classes have the greatest number of races for stat boosts, the only stats that break this rule are Constitution (wanted by everybody) and Wisdom (linked to classes often though of as support).

Therefore, 90% of the time players won't create Tiefling Fighters or Dwarven Wizards. Although I see no reason not to even in point buy, a +1 bonus isn't big enough to scare me off of a concept, and I think the idea of a dwarven wizard is cool (I'd put my stats as STR 8, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 15, WIS 10, CHA 8, and likely go Mountain Dwarf for the medium armour. Take Keen Mind or Observant at level 4, next two ASIs go into INT, nab Medium Armour Master, and finally +2 Dexterity. It's not optimal, but it's fun enough that I'll suffer the slightly lower INT).

There's no need to be optimal if you can be fun, so says Urist Lorekeeper XVIII.

[Pex]

Honestly? With how D&D point buy works I'm not certain getting at 18 at 1st level is worth it even for casters. It certainly was in 3.X, where SoDs and SoLs ruled, but not only are those rarer in 5e there's more inventive to have all around high stats then there was before. In 3.X and 4e there were only three stats that mattered for defence, while now all six in theory matter (although we know that Intelligence and Charisma are the least important).

Seriously, with a bit of work 5e could have made decent all around stats important for everybody. Here's hoping 6e will manage that (yes, I'm expecting a 6e at some point, although maybe not for another 5-10 years).


Buying an 18 with Point Buy has never been worth it for any edition. They always charge too much. To get the 18 you buy a 16 and let your racial modifier make it 18. In 3E/Pathfinder depending on what you want to do it can be worth it only ending up with a 17 to spend points elsewhere and let level 4 make it 18. Still, no harm in having three 16s or some such. Admittedly in Pathfinder it tends to be easier to get ability score boosting items. Never a guarantee of course, depending on DM, but likely.

I don't need an 18 at first level, but I vehemently object to being forbidden of having one which 5E Point Buy does.

[Talamare]

Can't Compare it to 3 or pathfinder

Those systems are designed with the intention of having characters capable of easily reaching around 30 on the attribute
18 out of 30 still leaves 12 stats to grow

5e it's intended that a character will only ever reach 20
18 out of 20, or even 20 out of 20
leaves little to no room for growth

[DanyBallon]

When I DM, I offer my players to roll (4d6b3) or use point buy. They always have the option to scratch a set of rolls, for a new one, or use standard array after re-rolling twice. Some of my player like to roll for character creation, and other always choose point buy from the go. Usually they are the same when it comes to roll for HP or take HD/2+1 when you level up :smallbiggrin:

As for allowing a 16 in point buy, making 16 cost 12 and giving them 30 points equals modifying stadard array to 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 which seems fine to me :smallsmile: