The problems Sor/Locks bring...

[Dudewithknives]

I brought this up in another thread but thought it deserves its own topic.

SOR/LOCKS, at least where I play are VERY common, as a matter of fact I have only ever seen 1 sorcerer that did not have at least 1 level of warlock, especially now that Hexblades are around.

Here are the issues, I think are going to come up.

1. Because SORLOCKS are so powerful, and so prevalent, it will hurt the Sorcerer in the long run. There will never be a Sorcerer subclass that gets a second attack as long as Sorlocks are common.

Can you imagine how broken it would be if someone could take 1- 3 levels of warlock and still get their second attack from sorcerer, instead of going all the way to 5 in their own class and spending an invocation for it. It is not as bad on a Bard/Lock, because bards are more support than offensive most of the time and they can not abuse the warlock levels like a sorcerer can.

2. This also hurts the Warlock, but not as much. As long as SOR/LOCKS are so overpowered compared to a normal Warlock, that just means there will be fewer and fewer pure warlocks. A few of the new invocations have helped some in keeping people in the Warlock class. I actually saw someone get a warlock above level 5 before they left recently.

3. The main reason behind the power structure of the SORLOCK is not the coffee lock build that floats around, any DM has ways around that, or just doesn't allow it in the first place. The quickest way I saw to deal with that is DM's that just say that your spell slots list is the maximum you can have at a time and that you can only use Sorcerery points to refill, not to go above it. The actual problem is that Warlocks get everything amazing about the class at levels 1 and 2, and due to how spell scaling works, a Warlock 2/ Sorcerer X can throw just as many and just as hard Eldritch Blasts as a base warlock, but has the option to quicken and what have you, and the base warlock doesn't.

For a simple 2 level dip into warlock, now that hex blade is out, a sorcerer, or really any CHA class, but mainly sorcerer gets:

a. Proficiency in Light armor
b. Proficiency in Medium armor
c. Proficiency with shields (A huge help in most games I have seen)
d. The best damaging cantrip in the game
e. 2 invocations of their choice, almost always Agonizing Blast and something else, many times Devil's Sight.
f. 2 refilling level 1 spell slots that can be burned for more SP if needed.
g. More spells known, including most of the warlock only spells such as Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Armor of Agathys, and Arms of Hadar (admittedly I have only ever seen someone cast AoH once.)
h. Ability to use their main casting stat for their martial attacks as well as spells.
i. Warlock Curse which is even better on a class that can quicken.

Meanwhile they get to actually know and use higher than level 5 spell slots and further upcast warlock spells, than the warlock can himself, and does not have to blow higher level spell slots on warlock spells that do not scale.

Anyone else seeing the issues with Sorlocks kind of harming the flow of the game.

I say this as a player who tried to play a warlock 1 - 16 in a game that also had a warlock 2/ Sorcerer X who really rubbed it in at how much better his character was than mine.

I know the people at Wizards are not highly concerned because they just always fall back on the "Multiclassing is optional" rule they threw in just so they did not have to care about balance as much.

[mephnick]

I know the people at Wizards are not highly concerned because they just always fall back on the "Multiclassing is optional" rule they threw in just so they did not have to care about balance as much.

I feel as the game goes on, more and more DMs are going to choose not to exercise this optional rule. The DM will blame it on Hexblade or something else in the future, then everyone will argue about how Sorlocks and Sorcadins were CORE so stop being a tyrant DM and then we'll get a ton of threads about it from both sides.

I think the game has enough fun options that I'm pretty much done with allowing multiclassing. I can only take so many Warlock and Fighter dips.

[Easy_Lee]

I say this as a player who tried to play a warlock 1 - 16 in a game that also had a warlock 2/ Sorcerer X who really rubbed it in at how much better his character was than mine.

I suspect that the rest of your post flowed from this incident.

[Dudewithknives]

I suspect that the rest of your post flowed from this incident.

It definately did not help, but I have spent years helping design and play test table top games, and it is just a glaring flaw in game balance and mechanics

[adolann]

I think a fundamental problem is the fact that the designers, for whatever reason, chose to take what had been a base class feature that scaled with class levels, and change it to a cantrip that scales with character levels.

Every complaint that I see around multiclassing Warlock fundamentally comes down to Eldritch Blast. Hexblade (a.k.a., Revised Pact of the Blade) isn't really that much of an issue, even if it is pretty crazily frontloaded.

[Percy_Ikana]

I feel as the game goes on, more and more DMs are going to choose not to exercise this optional rule. The DM will blame it on Hexblade or something else in the future, then everyone will argue about how Sorlocks and Sorcadins were CORE so stop being a tyrant DM and then we'll get a ton of threads about it from both sides.

I think the game has enough fun options that I'm pretty much done with allowing multiclassing. I can only take so many Warlock and Fighter dips.

At this point, I only allow multi-classing with an actual in game story event, such as dedicating time to learn fighter skills, or forging a pact with a patron, etc. either way, its a decision that will cost something.

I once had a player decide not to go Bard-Warlock because they would actually be expected to do their patrons will. This is not exactly relevant, but i despise that the default fluff for some warlocks insinuates that they get power, and their patron might not even notice.

Edit - Fixing typos.

[UrielAwakened]

Eldritch Blast is sort of necessary for a caster to keep up with all of the other high-damage martial characters. Paladins can nova, Fighters and Rangers have sustained damage all day, Rogues do truckloads of sneak attack damage.

If Sorcerers had a way to actually get their damage numbers up without burning spell slots there'd be less incentive to multiclass.

Honestly it comes down more to a pure Sorc being bad than it does a Warlock MC being too good. If the 5e Sorc was more like a 4e Sorc and reliably got Cha damage to all of its spells, and the bonus damage scaled with Sorc levels, the multiclass would be frivolous.

[mephnick]

Eldritch Blast is sort of necessary for a caster to keep up with all of the other high-damage martial characters.

They get spells. They aren't supposed to keep up with the martial characters.

[UrielAwakened]

They get spells. They aren't supposed to keep up with the martial characters.

Not good enough. Especially when all of the other casters get more spells.

Sorcs needed a niche beyond "I can cast an extra cantrip once a battle" and that niche should have been tons of damage.

Again, 4e did it right, repurposing the Sorcerer as a striker and damage dealer with Wizards being more control-oriented casters.

[Percy_Ikana]

Eldritch Blast is sort of necessary for a caster to keep up with all of the other high-damage martial characters.

If Sorcerers had a way to actually get their damage numbers up without burning spell slots there'd be less incentive to multiclass.

Honestly it comes down more to a pure Sorc being bad than it does a Warlock MC being too good.

I agree that Sorcerer is a bit disappointing to play, they have disappointing spell list, almost no spells known (fewer than a wizard can prepare!), and at least, by core, lackluster sub classes. At this point, I've house-ruled that (only) sorcerers use the spell point variant, and share a spell list with the wizard (this might be my 3.5 roots, more than anything). But, i realize that does not really help the base problem.

I don't think casters should keep up with martials in base damage, i would prefer it if they traded sustained damage for burst damage (leveled spells), and versatility (because casters, even the little known sorcerer, have more options than a martial.).

Edit - Ninja'd.

[UrielAwakened]

I agree that Sorcerer is a bit disappointing to play, they have disappointing spell list, almost no spells known (fewer than a wizard can prepare!), and at least, by core, lackluster sub classes. At this point, I've house-ruled that (only) sorcerers use the spell point variant, and share a spell list with the wizard (this might be my 3.5 roots, more than anything). But, i realize that does not really help the base problem.

I'm not sure if casters should keep up with marital in base damage, i would prefer it if they traded sustained damage for burst damage (leveled spells), and versatility (because casters, even the little known sorcerer, have more options than a martial.).

I think that would be a good balance. But Paladins exist.

[samcifer]

I suspect that the rest of your post flowed from this incident.

Sounds like really poor sportsmanship from the sorlock player.

[mer.c]

In your opinion, how much of the problem comes from Sorlocs generally, vs. how much comes specifically from Hexblade being so frontloaded? I agree that the value of the dip is problematic, but I'd like to tease apart how much belongs to each feature set. (Leaving aside coffeelocks for now.)

FWIW, without Hexblade as a dip option (DM has express permission not to use any feature/features from XGTE), I don't see it as being a problem as long as you houserule Eldritch Blast to key off of Warlock levels. It leaves pure Warlocks (who seem fine to me, generally) alone, and only nerfs the heavily cheesed Warlock dip builds. Given how powerful EB + Invocations is and the readily available option to use less powerful cantrips, it seems fair to me that if you stunt your Warlock progression, you lose out on some of EB's power (just like if you stunt your Warrior progression, you get fewer attacks).

As for Sorcerers, I think their problem is more that they have such a bad trap-to-not-trap ratio, and those not-trap builds are too narrow. I don't see poorly balanced dip options as the solution to that problem.

[Lombra]

I don't get it. What is so broken about sorlocks? The fact that they can quicken AEB very often? Really? Because that's basically what a sorcerer gains from a 2 warlock level dip. A good ranged attack at the cost of two levels worth of spell progression? How is the trade even worth it!?

Plus, warlocks, really need to get more DM attention, at least as much as paladins, because dealing with otherworldly beings should not be a walk in the park.

[Percy_Ikana]

I think that would be a good balance. But Paladins exist.

You are correct, paladins kinda break it a bit. they should be balanced a bit by having few spells, and limited usage on them (almost all healing, buff, and damage, with a few exceptions), and not the huge range other casters have. They nova like almost nothing else, but to do so, they trade versatility for damage.

[Mikal]

Not good enough. Especially when all of the other casters get more spells.

Sorcs needed a niche beyond "I can cast an extra cantrip once a battle" and that niche should have been tons of damage.

Again, 4e did it right, repurposing the Sorcerer as a striker and damage dealer with Wizards being more control-oriented casters.

Their niche is doing more damage, doing weird effects, being tougher to kill, being able to heal. In other words, their niche is that they're flexible based on their subclass. And their metamagic which lets them cast more higher level spells or lower level depending on how they spend their SP.

[Legendairy]

Not good enough. Especially when all of the other casters get more spells.

Sorcs needed a niche beyond "I can cast an extra cantrip once a battle" and that niche should have been tons of damage.

Again, 4e did it right, repurposing the Sorcerer as a striker and damage dealer with Wizards being more control-oriented casters.

Also 3.5 had super damage sorcerers, spontaneous magic. I never played 4e, I think the thought process was the meta Magic’s being so great, they don’t make up for lack of damage.

While the “you have spells” argument is all good and well it just makes them a wizard knock off that can’t have the he right spells for all situations, yes it can change those spells but in some games I’ve seen sorcerers feel underwhelming without the dip.

[Percy_Ikana]

Plus, warlocks, really need to get more DM attention, at least as much as paladins, because dealing with otherworldly beings should not be a walk in the park.

This, this is absolutely it. A multi class into warlock (or any class, really) should not be "free", they, at least by default fluff, turn themselves over to another entity for power, that should have consequences, and they shouldn't be able to easily get away from it.

[Percy_Ikana]

Also 3.5 had super damage sorcerers, spontaneous magic. I never played 4e, I think the thought process was the meta Magic’s being so great, they don’t make up for lack of damage.

While the “you have spells” argument is all good and well it just makes them a wizard knock off that can’t have the he right spells for all situations, yes it can change those spells but in some games I’ve seen sorcerers feel underwhelming without the dip.

The lack of ability to prepare was always a downside to a sorcerer, but they made up for it (in theory) with more spells per day than a wizard, and the ability to cast whatever spells they know how they wanted, instead of having to decide in advance what slots would be what spell.

[UrielAwakened]

I don't get it. What is so broken about sorlocks? The fact that they can quicken AEB very often? Really? Because that's basically what a sorcerer gains from a 2 warlock level dip. A good ranged attack at the cost of two levels worth of spell progression? How is the trade even worth it!?

Plus, warlocks, really need to get more DM attention, at least as much as paladins, because dealing with otherworldly beings should not be a walk in the park.

Yeah I mean people are overlooking this pretty heavily.

If you're a Warlock 2/Sorc X you're casting a full level of spells lower than any other pure caster in your party. If you go for Warlock 3 to double-up on how many Sorcery Points you get back per short rest, you're a level and a half behind.

Doubling your DPR vs. two extra Fireballs and a Polymorph by 10th level is a pretty balanced trade I think. I like having the sustained damage and added sorcery points but I've been that caster while someone else was casting Polymorph and Fireball earlier than I was and he definitely shined as well.


Their niche is doing more damage, doing weird effects, being tougher to kill, being able to heal. In other words, their niche is that they're flexible based on their subclass. And their metamagic which lets them cast more higher level spells or lower level depending on how they spend their SP.

That's not a niche. Every class changes slightly based on their subclass. The sorc's subclasses by-and-large aren't even very good. Hell their best ones either do some form of what I suggested (More damage) or else expand their available spell list.

[Easy_Lee]

This, this is absolutely it. A multi class into warlock (or any class, really) should not be "free", they, at least by default fluff, turn themselves over to another entity for power, that should have consequences, and they shouldn't be able to easily get away from it.

I'm curious to hear how you would penalize a fighter who dipped rogue: scout due to acting as one in the same army where he picked up his fighter levels.

[Legendairy]

The lack of ability to prepare was always a downside to a sorcerer, but they made up for it (in theory) with more spells per day than a wizard, and the ability to cast whatever spells they know how they wanted, instead of having to decide in advance what slots would be what spell.

Oh absolutely, but they could put out massive amounts of damage with those limited spells. They couldn’t GOD wizard and do everything but they had all the damages! At 14th level I think it was like 1200 damage or 600 to immune to energy types. That also did damage in an AoE for slightly less. Granted it’s been many years since I played my sorcerer and my brain replaces old rules with new ones (thanks brain). So I may be a bit fuzzy.
5e is pretty balanced in that if you do dip you have some decent consistent DPR and an entity that may or may not play a part (they usually do in my games), but you are a few levels behind the pure sorc in terms of fight ending possibilities.

[JellyPooga]

I don't, personally, have experience playing as or alongside a Sorlock of any flavour, but honestly? I don't see the problem. If there is one, it's not with the characters and the way they're built, but with GM's designing or running adventures that feature too much of the one thing that the Sorlock has been designed solely to excel in i.e. combat. You might as well complain about Rogues or Bards getting Expertise in social skills in a campaign that features more than its fair share of the Social pillar of gameplay, or Rangers in Exploration heavy games. The game has been designed with all three pillars of the game in roughly equal balance; that certain Classes and Class Features focus on individual elements is why the game is also designed with party dynamics in mind; a party of all Fighters is clearly not going to be as good as a party with a Fighter, a Rogue, a Cleric and a Wizard...unless the particular game being run is solely about fighting like a Fighter does.

A Sorlock is always going to be behind the curve in every aspect other than consistent DPR, which it is and should be good at, because they've sacrificed their ability in other areas to be good in that. Whether they're a Warlock that's dipped Sorcerer or vice versa, they're going to be at least one, if not two, spell levels behind a "pure" Sorcerer or Warlock. That's a big deal in versatility and, arguably, power. That is, in essence, the trade off of multiclassing. If Sorlocks are a problem for you, you don't need to look at the material on the surface (i.e. multiclassing rules or the Class Features involved), but the source of the problem (i.e. heavily combat focused games) and fix that instead.

[Lombra]

I'm curious to hear how you would penalize a fighter who dipped rogue: scout due to acting as one in the same army where he picked up his fighter levels.

He's not talking about penalizing every multiclass option, but about making multiclass meaningful. A rogue/fighter is easy to explain and play, a warlock/sorcerer inherently has more depth to it.

[Legendairy]

Sorlocks imho, are one trick ponies, it’s a neat trick, but it’s all they are good at. I ran an OotA campaign and our sorlock asked for a remake because while he did more consistent damage he didn’t like not being behind the spellcssting curb so muh. Also the tactics didn’t cater to the one trick that often, when they did he shined he just didn’t like the feel of it.

[Legendairy]

He's not talking about penalizing every multiclass option, but about making multiclass meaningful. A rogue/fighter is easy to explain and play, a warlock/sorcerer inherently has more depth to it.

That’s very dm dependent and not necessarily true. I start as a warlock who wanted magic so I made a pact with x, come to find out the power was always within me (hence sorc). You still have a pact and now you are a sorc. So not much more in depth than I was in the dale land ranger brigade but didn’t take to magic but excelled at fighting, they taught me or I learned to sneak better (rogue).

I get that I’m somewhat trivializing important character details but hopefully it kind of gets my point across :smallbiggrin:
“In depth” is campaign and DM depending, it can also scare players off of cool characters because they worry that they will be sub par in an area they want to excel and that hinders them somewhat while Joe the fighter/rogue just gets the hand wave and ok.

[Percy_Ikana]

I'm curious to hear how you would penalize a fighter who dipped rogue: scout due to acting as one in the same army where he picked up his fighter levels.

I wouldn't. In that example, they would be multi classing for a actual, in game character reason, they had been acting as a scout, they got training, or experience, he didn't take the scout level, and THEN act as a scout. That's a perfectly valid may to multi-class.


He's not talking about penalizing every multiclass option, but about making multiclass meaningful. A rogue/fighter is easy to explain and play, a warlock/sorcerer inherently has more depth to it.

Exactly. Warlocks bargain to get power, a sorcerer already has it, whats the reason they are willing to trade their service away for more? there are plenty of valid reasons, but, there should be a reason.

[Legendairy]

Another thing, is it so much different than a paladorc or sorcadin? You are beholden to a god or ideal and then find out the power is within?

[Percy_Ikana]

That’s very dm dependent and not necessarily true. I start as a warlock who wanted magic so I made a pact with x, come to find out the power was always within me (hence sorc). You still have a pact and now you are a sorc. So not much more in depth than I was in the dale land ranger brigade but didn’t take to magic but excelled at fighting, they taught me or I learned to sneak better (rogue).

I get that I’m somewhat trivializing important character details but hopefully it kind of gets my point across :smallbiggrin:
“In depth” is campaign and DM depending, it can also scare players off of cool characters because they worry that they will be sub par in an area they want to excel and that hinders them somewhat while Joe the fighter/rogue just gets the hand wave and ok.

that's also a valid reason to MC (Although, i would want an actual event to be what made you realize your own internal power, but that could be arranged by talking to the DM about wishing to multi class, I've done so in my games to give an in character reason for such a thing) But, warlocks, By default, and at least in my games, pledge themselves to something, a promise they must keep, or face consequences, same as if a cleric denies the god who grants them power.

I wouldn't allow martials to multi class for no reason either, see easy lees post above for an example of when it would be allowed.

[Dudewithknives]

Yeah I mean people are overlooking this pretty heavily.

If you're a Warlock 2/Sorc X you're casting a full level of spells lower than any other pure caster in your party. If you go for Warlock 3 to double-up on how many Sorcery Points you get back per short rest, you're a level and a half behind.

Doubling your DPR vs. two extra Fireballs and a Polymorph by 10th level is a pretty balanced trade I think. I like having the sustained damage and added sorcery points but I've been that caster while someone else was casting Polymorph and Fireball earlier than I was and he definitely shined as well.



That's not a niche. Every class changes slightly based on their subclass. The sorc's subclasses by-and-large aren't even very good. Hell their best ones either do some form of what I suggested (More damage) or else expand their available spell list.

My main issues is actually in the opposite direction.

It is not so much that the SORLOCK is superior to the Sorcerer so much, that could be debated depending on how badly you need 1 higher spell level vs so many front loaded abilities, it is more that it is just so much better than a base Warlock.

The base warlock can only break even with other casters if your DM actually gives you short rests twice per long rest, or even more at certain levels.

It is also an issue because a Sorcerer itself can out play the Warlock's main gimmick at most levels.

Ex.

@ level 9, a Warlock and a Sorcerer if pure classed both just got their 5th level slot, which is a big level for most casters.

A warlock has 2 5th level spell slots, but a Sorcerer only has 1.
The big difference being that the Warlock does not have any other ones, the Sorcerer still has 4 first level spell slots, and 3 of each level 2 - 4.

A warlock can get their level 5 spell slots back at the short rest.
So assuming that they actually get their 2 short rests per long rest, the Warlock can cast 6 spells of 5th level, regardless whether or not those spell slots scale or not. Need to burn a spell slot for Shield to keep from taking a hit, oh well, everyone else can spend a level 1 slot, you have to burn a level 5.

Here is the bigger problem:

The Sorcerer can buy spell slots with sorcerery points.
At the beginning the sorcerer would have 9 SP, he could just spend 7 of them to get a second 5th level slot too. Now he has 2 5th level slots just like the warlock, but he still has all the other spell levels.
Later if they cast their 5th level slots, if they really need to they can just spend those spell levels into SP to buy more.
If they just blow the spell levels that the Warlock never has in the first place, they could spend 28 SP to buy 4 more spell slots of 5th level, and would still have 5 SP left remaining.

So through the adventuring day he can have just as many spell slots of 5th level as the Warlock can, only if the need to, or can just keep their massively more spell slots they get normally, and they can do all this without taking a short rest at all, they just need some bonus actions.

So just to break even with a base sorcerer a warlock of 9th level would have to have 3 short rests, per long rest just to be ahead by 2 spell slots.

Take 2 levels of Warlock for their great front loaded abilities, especially with Hexblade now, and you get the best of both worlds.

Also, the Cha to hit with weapons from the Hexblade is not really the big bonus, the proficiency in light and medium armor, shields and warlock curse are the big bonuses, along with more spells known which is always huge.

[Potato_Priest]

I also have come around to not allowing multiclassing without a very good story in-world justification.

While it may hurt some character concepts, you can still do a lot of different things single-classed (and if you ask me I’d be happy to do some minor homebrew or reflavoring to help you out), but a ton of multiclass builds are just cheese, and I’d rather get rid of them all in one broad stroke.

[Percy_Ikana]

Another thing, is it so much different than a paladorc or sorcadin? You are beholden to a god or ideal and then find out the power is within?

It's no different, you should still have to follow the gods ideals if you wish to keep the power they have granted you, and I would still want an event to awaken your inner magic.

[Dudewithknives]

I also have come around to not allowing multiclassing without a very good story justification.

While it may hurt some character concepts, you can still do a lot of different things single-classed (and if you ask me I’d be happy to do some minor homebrew or reflavoring to help you out), but a ton of multiclass builds are just cheese, and I’d rather get rid of them all in one broad stroke.

The way I fixed the rampant SORLOCK issues in my games was that I made Warlocks an INT based class instead of a CHA one.

Wizards are so good in the first place, and their subclass ablitties are so fundamental most of the time, they would not waste the levels to take warlock, than a CHA based full caster or a paladin.

[Lombra]

That’s very dm dependent and not necessarily true. I start as a warlock who wanted magic so I made a pact with x, come to find out the power was always within me (hence sorc). You still have a pact and now you are a sorc. So not much more in depth than I was in the dale land ranger brigade but didn’t take to magic but excelled at fighting, they taught me or I learned to sneak better (rogue).

I get that I’m somewhat trivializing important character details but hopefully it kind of gets my point across :smallbiggrin:
“In depth” is campaign and DM depending, it can also scare players off of cool characters because they worry that they will be sub par in an area they want to excel and that hinders them somewhat while Joe the fighter/rogue just gets the hand wave and ok.

Well, you have an X to expand on in the sorlock, while the figher/rogue doesn't. You can make any backstory more complicated than another, a fighter/rogue may have reasons for multiclassing that are very much more deep and complex than an average sorlock, but when rounded down to the fundamentals, warlocks generally -and you are right in saying the buzzword "DM and campaign dependant"- have more depth to them, because they are linked to an external entity, and their relationship with such entity is generally more complex than the one between a cleric and a gid for example.

Not to mention that if you don't start warlock (and most start sorcerer for CON dave proficiency) you will have to rely on DM collaboration, because otherworldly patrons generally don't fall from the skies.

Obviously all of this is pointless in a dungeon delving low-RP campaign, where everything gets handwaved and questions about it are not being asked.

[Legendairy]

The way I fixed the rampant SORLOCK issues in my games was that I made Warlocks an INT based class instead of a CHA one.

Wizards are so good in the first place, and their subclass ablitties are so fundamental most of the time, they would not waste the levels to take warlock, than a CHA based full caster or a paladin.

How good would a hexblade/bladesinger be? More spells huge ac and decent melee ability, would they actually be any weaker than a sorlock?

[Dudewithknives]

It's no different, you should still have to follow the gods ideals if you wish to keep the power they have granted you, and I would still want an event to awaken your inner magic.

Paladins in 5e do not get their power from the gods directly, they get it from dedication to an ideal.

Also, a Few Warlock / Ancients Paladin would make perfect sense, I can also see a Hexblade/Paladin making good sense if they are warlockly empowered by a sentient weapon of their dedication, now something like a Fiend Patron warlock and Paladin of the Devotion would not make much sense.

[Legendairy]

Well, you have an X to expand on in the sorlock, while the figher/rogue doesn't. You can make any backstory more complicated than another, a fighter/rogue may have reasons for multiclassing that are very much more deep and complex than an average sorlock, but when rounded down to the fundamentals, warlocks generally -and you are right in saying the buzzword "DM and campaign dependant"- have more depth to them, because they are linked to an external entity, and their relationship with such entity is generally more complex than the one between a cleric and a gid for example.

Not to mention that if you don't start warlock (and most start sorcerer for CON dave proficiency) you will have to rely on DM collaboration, because otherworldly patrons generally don't fall from the skies.

Obviously all of this is pointless in a dungeon delving low-RP campaign, where everything gets handwaved and questions about it are not being asked.

Within story reason it’s easy to start sorc and have some innate power but want more so....bargain time! I agree with you by the way. Then after the bargain your innate power grows.

As for being inherently more to do with them than gods I don’t by that especially since the GoO locks (I think) specifically say they may never notice the lock or interfere, something to that effect.

[Dudewithknives]

How good would a hexblade/bladesinger be? More spells huge ac and decent melee ability, would they actually be any weaker than a sorlock?

A Warlock 2 / Bladesinger X does not really gain as much from the warlock levels as a Sorlock would.

They already get proficiency in light armor, and can not wear the medium armor anyway.
I do not think they can blade sing and use a shield, if I remember correctly.
Wizards get plenty of great offensive spells that EB is not as huge of a boost.

The only real benefit is that they could use INT to hit and damage, instead of their DEX like every other blade singer.
it is good but not great.
Also most blade singers I have seen went Dex primary and Int as secondary and used spells more for buffs and non-save spells.

I could see some people taking warlock/bladesinger but most would just skip the warlock levels.

[Legendairy]

It can also shy people away from dnd to limit their options as a dm, I have some players who are starting out and shy role players but they love their sorlock types and if I were to make it difficult it could turn them off the character and maybe the game completely.

If it’s an experienced group of role players and very few to no roll players, heck yeah have it feed the DM’s narrative. But for newer people who just want options and to “feel” powerful, I don’t always want them to do the extra work cause it could force some back under their shells.

[Toadkiller]

In my current campaign I’ve made it clear will be plot elements, dip or full class. So are the gods of divine casters, etc. But the patron may be less benign, depending. So trying to play it to type - they get more power. At a cost.

[Percy_Ikana]

Paladins in 5e do not get their power from the gods directly, they get it from dedication to an ideal.

Also, a Few Warlock / Ancients Paladin would make perfect sense, I can also see a Hexblade/Paladin making good sense if they are warlockly empowered by a sentient weapon of their dedication, now something like a Fiend Patron warlock and Paladin of the Devotion would not make much sense.

Huh. You are correct. Even though I've been paying 5e since it came out, a lot of 3.5 default stuff is still stuck in my head.

And that was my point, the multi class is fine if you continue to hold up your ideals, to both sides, in a paladin/warlocks case. My problem with multi classing has very little to do with power gain, it almost wholly just related to ignoring story FOR power.

[Legendairy]

Personally for me of the “let the players have their fun” mentality. I would like it to be story based why they make a bargain but if it’s a more behind the things I’m cool with it. I work on the campaign and over arching stories, if I can incorporate your multi class options great! If it’s not something you care about, cool. It’s easy to tool encounters to suit your group and doesn’t take much more effort at my tables. So sure bring your sorlocks and paladorcs, your coffeelocks! But beware if you like that type of power then you will be faced occasionally with foes that are equally powerful.

[alchahest]

dipping fighter for almost every class is "for power" either for the armor and con save if you start as fighter, or for action surge. dipping rogue is always "For power" though it's more situational and much more in terms of skill use. literally any dip adds power and versatility. And a dip can either represent a shift in practice or, simply an expansion of the tools available.

Is it any more game breaking for a 13 int/13 cha fighter to multi warlock (by bargaining with a powerful being) than it is for a fighter to suddenly learn spells from the wizard list via becoming an eldritch knight?

[Dudewithknives]

dipping fighter for almost every class is "for power" either for the armor and con save if you start as fighter, or for action surge. dipping rogue is always "For power" though it's more situational and much more in terms of skill use. literally any dip adds power and versatility. And a dip can either represent a shift in practice or, simply an expansion of the tools available.

Is it any more game breaking for a 13 int/13 cha fighter to multi warlock (by bargaining with a powerful being) than it is for a fighter to suddenly learn spells from the wizard list via becoming an eldritch knight?

Well, considering that the Fighter would gain almost nothing by dipping warlock, and would have to boost a stat that is a complete dump stat to do it, yes much less game breaking.

If you wanted to be a fighter who could cast some spells why would you ever bother to dip warlock for it when eldritch knight is already there for you, I can see someone doing it for RP reasons, and very good for them, I am always behind building a character based on RP, but nobody would dip warlock for power if they are playing a fighter.

[alchahest]

Well, considering that the Fighter would gain almost nothing by dipping warlock, and would have to boost a stat that is a complete dump stat to do it, yes much less game breaking.

If you wanted to be a fighter who could cast some spells why would you ever bother to dip warlock for it when eldritch knight is already there for you, I can see someone doing it for RP reasons, and very good for them, I am always behind building a character based on RP, but nobody would dip warlock for power if they are playing a fighter.

it's not my character, but a fighter might 2 level dip to, for example, see in the dark better than drow, have on-tap mage armor for emergencies, have an always-available scaling ranged attack, or curse opponents they want to grapple.

there's all kinds of reasons they might want to dip for power. I'm not saying it's a choice I would make, though that depends entirely on the character I'm playing.

[Easy_Lee]

I wouldn't. In that example, they would be multi classing for a actual, in game character reason, they had been acting as a scout, they got training, or experience, he didn't take the scout level, and THEN act as a scout. That's a perfectly valid may to multi-class.

Is that right? Because I can give you a good, in-game character reason for any combination of classes. My right to multiclass at your table would be dependent on my ability to spin stories and BS the DM. You really don't want to go there.

[UrielAwakened]

Is that right? Because I can give you a good, in-game character reason for any combination of classes. My right to multiclass at your table would be dependent on my ability to spin stories and BS the DM. You really don't want to go there.

"I didn't know I was a Sorcerer so I made a pact and then I found out I was actually a Sorcerer."

"I was a Sorcerer but I didn't feel like I was as good as the other Sorcerers so I made a pact to be better."

There. Sorc -> Warlock or Warlock -> Sorc done.

[Percy_Ikana]

Is that right? Because I can give you a good, in-game character reason for any combination of classes. My right to multiclass at your table would be dependent on my ability to spin stories and BS the DM. You really don't want to go there.

As above, I don't limit multi classing for power reasons. If you want to do it for power, fine, but you are coming up with some a reason, or an event to work into the game, something more than "well, i just want to take agonizing blast to deal more DPR". I don't care if that's your end goal, but we are playing a story, you can give story reasons. Spinning stories is part of the goal, after all. If i was running a game without a story, I wouldn't care what you multi classed or why.

There is no reason to be antagonistic.

[Easy_Lee]

"I didn't know I was a Sorcerer so I made a pact and then I found out I was actually a Sorcerer."

"I was a Sorcerer but I didn't feel like I was as good as the other Sorcerers so I made a pact to be better."

There. Sorc -> Warlock or Warlock -> Sorc done.

Exactly. Sorlock is particularly easy because it's a typical Mary Sue kind of backstory.

"I made a pact so I would have the power to leave my horrible terrible bigoted slave-owning puppy-kicking home country, but then I hit sorceress-puberty and found out the power inside of me is greater than what my pact gave me."

Easy.

[Percy_Ikana]

Exactly. Sorlock is particularly easy because it's a typical Mary Sue kind of backstory.

"I made a pact so I would have the power to leave my horrible terrible bigoted slave-owning puppy-kicking home country, but then I hit sorceress-puberty and found out the power inside of me is greater than what my pact gave me."

Easy.

I never said it was hard. Just that a reason was wanted (because it can be used for a story arc! wow, content for everyone from a background). Although, you still made the pact, and you are stuck dealing with the consequences of it. You will never really be your own again, if you patron asks you to do something, you can follow, or risk retribution from something that you swore a pact with. Maybe your strong enough to deal with that, maybe not, its your choice to find out. My request is that as a player, you work with me/the DM to make multi classing a decision with actual importance to the game. All characters should contribute to the overall story, and multi classing can be a way to do so. As a result, i don't tend to allow multi-classing until the game has already started (not that that's a problem, most of my games start at lv 1- 3).

[Byke]

The root cause of the problem in 5e, is that all of casters are spontaneous. This was a niche that belonged only to Sorcerers in previous additions.

Aside from "The One Trick Pony" that meta magic provides (buffing and nova dam), Sorcerer for all of the fluff printed in the PHB and Xander's are inferior to every other caster in 5e.

The 20th level capstone is a joke, which is easily replicated by taking 2 level of Warlock.

Hexblade being so front loaded make up for these deficiencies, by giving them additional survivability, excellent sustained damage and short reset spell regeneration. Also the addition of Shield to the HB expanded spell list frees up another precious Sorcerer slot.

There is no reason whatsoever to go a full 20 levels in Sorcerer as there is nothing beneficial past 18th level.

This is poor class design and it is on WoTC. It is not the fault of the players who want to make the class as competitive as possible, compared to other "pure" casters.

There have been multiple threads on this board to improve the Sorcerer class, spanning months / years and they have been ignored. (But I will say that Shadow Sorcerer was a step in the right direction)

Instead WotC continues to improve Charisma synergy and front loading new classes which make it way to easy for Sorcerers to choose multi-classing.

[Percy_Ikana]

The root cause of the problem is that in 5e, is that all of casters are spontaneous. This was a niche that belonged only to Sorcerers in previous additions.

Aside from "The One Trick Pony" that meta magic provides (buffing and nova dam), Sorcerer for all of the fluff printed in the PHB and Xander's are inferior to every other caster in 5e.

The 20th level capstone is a joke, which is easily replicated by taking 2 level of Warlock.

Hexblade being so front loaded make up for these deficiencies, by giving them additional survivability, excellent sustained damage and short reset spell regeneration. Also the addition of Shield to the HB expanded spell list frees up another precious Sorcerer slot.

There is no reason whatsoever to go a full 20 levels in Sorcerer as there is nothing beneficial past 18th level.

This is poor class design and it is on WoTC. It is not the fault of the players who want to make the class as competitive as possible, compared to other "pure" casters.

There have been multiple threads on this board to improve the Sorcerer class, spanning months / years and they have been ignored. (But I will say that Shadow Sorcerer was a step in the right direction)

Instead WotC continues to improve Charisma synergy and front loading new classes which make it way to easy for Sorcerers to choose multi-classing.

I agree. Sorcerer lost its casting niche from older editions, and has no real way of getting back. Their capstone (like a lot of them) are... almost worthless, so whats the point in going all the way, from a mechanics standpoint?

[alchahest]

I never said it was hard. Just that a reason was wanted (because it can be used for a story arc! wow, content for everyone from a background). Although, you still made the pact, and you are stuck dealing with the consequences of it. You will never really be your own again, if you patron asks you to do something, you can follow, or risk retribution from something that you swore a pact with. Maybe your strong enough to deal with that, maybe not, its your choice to find out. My request is that as a player, you work with me/the DM to make multi classing a decision with actual importance to the game. All characters should contribute to the overall story, and multi classing can be a way to do so. As a result, i don't tend to allow multi-classing until the game has already started (not that that's a problem, most of my games start at lv 1- 3).

whoa - where does it say that warlocks have to do the bidding of their patrons? and why can't multiclassing have actual importance without making people regret choices? can't the importance be giving the players a more engaging experience without punishing them for class/multiclass selection? Surely you're able to create story hooks without just making patrons into a "well you took warlock that means they own you" class? (which is not implied by the class, at all.)

[Dudewithknives]

The root cause of the problem is that in 5e, is that all of casters are spontaneous. This was a niche that belonged only to Sorcerers in previous additions.

Aside from "The One Trick Pony" that meta magic provides (buffing and nova dam), Sorcerer for all of the fluff printed in the PHB and Xander's are inferior to every other caster in 5e.

The 20th level capstone is a joke, which is easily replicated by taking 2 level of Warlock.

Hexblade being so front loaded make up for these deficiencies, by giving them additional survivability, excellent sustained damage and short reset spell regeneration. Also the addition of Shield to the HB expanded spell list frees up another precious Sorcerer slot.

There is no reason whatsoever to go a full 20 levels in Sorcerer as there is nothing beneficial past 18th level.

This is poor class design and it is on WoTC. It is not the fault of the players who want to make the class as competitive as possible, compared to other "pure" casters.

There have been multiple threads on this board to improve the Sorcerer class, spanning months / years and they have been ignored. (But I will say that Shadow Sorcerer was a step in the right direction)

Instead WotC continues to improve Charisma synergy and front loading new classes which make it way to easy for Sorcerers to choose multi-classing.

I would not say they are inferior to all other casters, inferior to Wizards definitely, Bards, depends on what you want to do, Clerics, maybe, Warlocks, no, Warlocks are by far inferior.

Sorcerer's main benefit in my opinion is actually Subtle Metamagic, it is cheap, and makes you the king of underhanded shenanigans. Also it makes you impossible to counter spell, which might not be huge in some games but it can be groundbreaking in a more magic centered game.

[Dudewithknives]

It all comes back to what I said in the OP.

Sorcerer is a lackluster but somewhat serviceable caster, and Warlock is a early level powerhouse that loses almost all its oomph after 3 to 5 levels.

However, if you multi class them together as a sorcerer who dips warlock you get something that is far superior to either individually.

Especially now with hex blade being official.

[Talamare]

It was a Design Error not making Agonizing Blast require lv5

[Dudewithknives]

It was a Design Error not making Agonizing Blast require lv5

No, it was a design error making Eldritch Blast a cantrip in the first place. It should have been a class ability, that scaled with warlock levels.

[Percy_Ikana]

whoa - where does it say that warlocks have to do the bidding of their patrons? and why can't multiclassing have actual importance without making people regret choices? can't the importance be giving the players a more engaging experience without punishing them for class/multiclass selection? Surely you're able to create story hooks without just making patrons into a "well you took warlock that means they own you" class? (which is not implied by the class, at all.)

you took cleric so a god owns you, or paladin so your ideals own you, or a druid so you are sworn to nature. Several classes have things like that built in, at least by (my reading of) core "fluff". they are all classes where something else has chosen to grant you strength. There are ways it comes up other than "Ha, your a warlock, so screw you". There are other ways for it to appear. It can become a mission to disavow your patron while keeping your power, should you dislike them. Maybe you swore to something you like, so you could spend effort to raise their status in the world, in whatever way is appropriate (i once had a warlock spread her patron as a new religion, to try bring power to them).

The intro paragraph to warlocks is literally called "Sworn and Beholden" reread that introduction, the patron is clearly meant to hold sway over the warlock, but its not absolute, the warlock (or patron) can end it whenever, but there might be consequences (which, are not always bad).

besides, I am not an end-all be-all, I was explaining how it works in my games, as i felt it was relevant to the conversation, not trying to force others to follow suit.

Edit- added last point.

[krugaan]

It was a Design Error not making Agonizing Blast require lv5

This. Although I can understand why they would want some kind of early game for warlocks. Don't understand why they tied it to cantrips, though.

[UrielAwakened]

Even without Agonizing Blast it's still far and away the best damage cantrip.

It can crit, which Toll the Dead can't, and it has four chances to do so at the highest levels. Plus anything you can get that improves its damage improves it four times as much as any other cantrip. It also triggers hex up to four times (the other thing that arguably should have just been a Warlock class feature).

[Percy_Ikana]

This. Although I can understand why they would want some kind of early game for warlocks. Don't understand why they tied it to cantrips, though.

I don't think WOTC considered multi classing when creating classes, as evident by Multi classing being a variant rule.
I personally like the fix of "Agonizing blast scales with warlock level", so that it applies to one blast a 1st, two at 5th, etc, although it does lose some simplicity.

[Byke]

I would not say they are inferior to all other casters, inferior to Wizards definitely, Bards, depends on what you want to do, Clerics, maybe, Warlocks, no, Warlocks are by far inferior.

Sorcerer's main benefit in my opinion is actually Subtle Metamagic, it is cheap, and makes you the king of underhanded shenanigans. Also it makes you impossible to counter spell, which might not be huge in some games but it can be groundbreaking in a more magic centered game.


I have argued this point already (with Citan many many may times :) I wish I could find the thread to save time.

Warlocks are not pure casters...they have their own spell progression and should not be considered in the argument. As they have invocations and pact abilities/magic to make up for the deficiencies.

The rest of the pure caster are hands down better. They have a larger list of spells to select from, more spells known and class abilities which scales with class level that are on par with any meta-magic.

Subtle while an excellent MM for pushing forward role-playing scenarios, is only really used as an argument for beating counterspell. There are other ways of avoiding being counterspelled that don't require spending sorcery points.

Since most game don't go past 10th-15th level, the best meta magics are Twin and Empower prior to 10th and Quicken at 10th. The limited amount of sorcery points early on make quicken to expensive a burst tool prior to 10th. *EDIT finished my sentence***

Now if you are in a game where Subtle can provide you with some plot advancement or open up RP, go for it. But Subtle at best shouldn't be taken before 10th when counterspelling could be more prevalent.

Back to my previous post, why Shadow Sorcerer is one of the better sub-class designed. It seems that WoTC finally realized that 3 MM in 10 level isn't enough and gave Sorcerer a persistent Heighten.

[Dudewithknives]

This. Although I can understand why they would want some kind of early game for warlocks. Don't understand why they tied it to cantrips, though.

Simple, they do not care about multi classing, balancing a game around the ability to multi class is magnitudes harder than balancing it around one that doesn't have it. So they just made multi classing optional so they did not have to bother with muliclass balance, they can always just use the excuse of, "Multiclassing is optional, just don't use it."

Also as I said, EB should have never been a cantrip in the first place, just make it a Warlock class ability that scales to their levels, like other classes have multiple attacks.
Problem solved.

I actually rewrote the entire Warlock class as being a non-caster like they were back in 3.5, so far it has worked great for the people who have played it. Took 32 pages to finish though.

[UrielAwakened]

The designers really shouldn't be cut slack for making the most commonly-used rule variants "optional."

You don't get to fall back on that for not doing your job better.

[Talamare]

Sorcerer feels like that class that the designers spent a little extra time to 'bring them down', because they are the only class with meta magic.
Meta Magic dominated 3.5, and they didn't want for that to happen again.

So now Sorcerer is essentially the 2nd worst caster. Right after Warlock.

In the mean time, they worked extra hard on making Wizards cool again.
Since one of the biggest complaints of 4e was that Wizards weren't really Wizards anymore.
Not to mention they probably felt they needed to make Wizards good despite not having meta magic.

So now Wizards are essentially the best caster.

Hurray for Designers attempting to fix the mistakes of the past...
Only to make the SAME MISTAKES OF THE PAST

[Dudewithknives]

I have argued this point already (with Citan many many may times :) I wish I could find the thread to save time.

Warlocks are not pure casters...they have their own spell progression and should not be considered in the argument. As they have invocations and pact abilities/magic to make up for the deficiencies.

The rest of the pure caster are hands down better. They have a larger list of spells to select from, more spells known and class abilities which scales with class level that are on par with any meta-magic.

Subtle while an excellent MM for pushing forward role-playing scenarios, is only really used as an argument for beating counterspell. There are other ways of avoiding being counterspelled that don't require spending sorcery points.

Since most game don't go past 10th-15th level, the best meta magics are Twin and Empower prior to 10th and Quicken at 10th. The limited amount of sorcery points make quicken a burst tool.

Now if you are in a game where Subtle can provide you with some plot advancement or open up RP, go for it. But Subtle at best shouldn't be taken before 10th when counterspelling could be more prevalent.

Back to my previous post, why Shadow Sorcerer is one of the better sub-class designed. It seems that WoTC finally realized that 3 MM in 10 level isn't enough and gave Sorcerer a persistent Heighten.

Oh, you are preaching to the quire on the idea that Warlocks are not full casters. I was one of the first people to try to convince people of that. If you do not have actual spell slot above 5th level you are not a full caster to me, but every time I brought that up people just kept arguing about it.

In the games I have seen Subtle Spell has been amazing when starting fights or in social situations much more than counter spell.
Subtle blindness/deafness, hold person, charm person, or pretty much any spell that does not have an obvious magical effect are great.

Also as far as horrible mistakes in warlock game design. Hunger Of Hadar. Why the hell does probably the best warlock only spell not scale with level? If it was any other class sure, don't scale, you can just cast it at level 3 all the time, but why would you make a level 3 spell for a class that MUST upcast their lower level spells gain nothing from being forced to use their own spell.

[krugaan]

Simple, they do not care about multi classing, balancing a game around the ability to multi class is magnitudes harder than balancing it around one that doesn't have it. So they just made multi classing optional so they did not have to bother with muliclass balance, they can always just use the excuse of, "Multiclassing is optional, just don't use it."

Also as I said, EB should have never been a cantrip in the first place, just make it a Warlock class ability that scales to their levels, like other classes have multiple attacks.
Problem solved.

I actually rewrote the entire Warlock class as being a non-caster like they were back in 3.5, so far it has worked great for the people who have played it. Took 32 pages to finish though.

Shrug, I don't think it would have taken much.

Agonizing blast to level 3, make it baseline.

Actually, that might be enough. Forcing a 3 level dip is pretty crippling for casters. Not sure about paladins.

[Easy_Lee]

EB bothers me for a different reason: warlocks get their fourth attack before fighters. All other things being equal, this makes EB overall superior to extra attack in tier four (even though fighters will actually do more damage due to better feat support, fighting styles, magic items, and so on).

If it were me, I'd give fighters extra attack 4 at level 17 (making fighter the standard for saying which tier of play you were currently in) and change EB scaling to a warlock feature. But that's just my two cents.

[Byke]

Shrug, I don't think it would have taken much.

Agonizing blast to level 3, make it baseline.

Actually, that might be enough. Forcing a 3 level dip is pretty crippling for casters. Not sure about paladins.

If they did move EB, Hex Warrior and Hex Curse to 3rd level, you would have Sorcerer shift to 2 level of Paladin or Fighter. There are multiple 2 level dips that have synergy. Hex is just the best.

[Talamare]

EB bothers me for a different reason: warlocks get their fourth attack before fighters. All other things being equal, this makes EB overall superior to extra attack in tier four (even though fighters will actually do more damage due to better feat support, fighting styles, magic items, and so on).

If it were me, I'd give fighters extra attack 4 at level 17 (making fighter the standard for saying which tier of play you were currently in) and change EB scaling to a warlock feature. But that's just my two cents.

Probably because Fighters were going to get it at 17, but they couldn't think of a cool capstone

[Easy_Lee]

Probably because Fighters were going to get it at 17, but they couldn't think of a cool capstone

That'd be lame. They could have easily done, "if you don't have any uses of action surge at the start of combat you regain one use," or something equally lazy.

[krugaan]

If they did move EB, Hex Warrior and Hex Curse to 3rd level, you would have Sorcerer shift to 2 level of Paladin or Fighter. There are multiple 2 level dips that have synergy. Hex is just the best.

A two level dip in those classes gets you a bit more survivability (and action surge), but I don't see many sorcerors taking it. Sorcadin can smite, but the MADness is a bit much, and having to spend time in melee to smite isn't going to be great with the small health pool sorcs have.

Currently, lock dips have all the benefits with few downsides, especially at high levels.


That'd be lame. They could have easily done, "if you don't have any uses of action surge at the start of combat you regain one use," or something equally lazy.

Why not, "if you don't have any uses of action surge at the start of your turn, you regain one use," or something really fun!

[Byke]

A two level dip in those classes gets you a bit more survivability (and action surge), but I don't see many sorcerors taking it. Sorcadin can smite, but the MADness is a bit much, and having to spend time in melee to smite isn't going to be great with the small health pool sorcs have.

Currently, lock dips have all the benefits with few downsides, especially at high levels.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

Aside from being an excellent Sorcadin guide, there are many posts within the thread itself which attest to players taking 2 levels of Paladin.

While Hex does make a character SAD, A minimal amount of MADness is easily achieved and melee effectiveness done via the melee cantrips and MM , that more than keep up with 2 attacks per round. .

[alchahest]

fighter capstone should have been something like "When you attack with advantage and hit, add your proficiency bonus to the damage. If you score a critical hit, add double your proficiency damage. this damage cannot be resisted in any way. "

also 4th attack moved to 17.

[krugaan]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

Aside from being an excellent Sorcadin guide, there are many posts within the thread itself which attest to players taking 2 levels of Paladin.

While Hex does make a character SAD, A minimal amount of MADness is easily achieved and melee effectiveness done via the melee cantrips and MM , that more than keep up with 2 attacks per round. .

Shrug, on the one hand, it's AC, higher burst, melee requirement, and MADness. On the other, its more spell slots, invocations, higher sustained, and SADness.

Lack of free extra attack is a killer for me, at least for a gish build. If you have fewer encounters a day, then sure, sorcadin shines more, but warceror is most consistent and the name sounds better.

[Dudewithknives]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

Aside from being an excellent Sorcadin guide, there are many posts within the thread itself which attest to players taking 2 levels of Paladin.

While Hex does make a character SAD, A minimal amount of MADness is easily achieved and melee effectiveness done via the melee cantrips and MM , that more than keep up with 2 attacks per round. .

I encountered a different problem with most warlocks I have seen and the 2 I have played, I almost never cast Hex.

By the time I got to where the multiple attacks paid off, i had better uses for my concentration.

The only times I would cast Hex was if I needed to mess with a person's ability check, like cursing their CHA in social situations, messing with their STR in grapple situations against team mates, or the like, very rarely did the extra d6 on attacks ever really matter.

I did play a pure warlock though, if I was a fighter with action surge and a bonus action attack, yeah I can see it being much better, but in that case just take magic initiate instead of warlock.

[krugaan]

I encountered a different problem with most warlocks I have seen and the 2 I have played, I almost never cast Hex.

By the time I got to where the multiple attacks paid off, i had better uses for my concentration.

The only times I would cast Hex was if I needed to mess with a person's ability check, like cursing their CHA in social situations, messing with their STR in grapple situations against team mates, or the like, very rarely did the extra d6 on attacks ever really matter.

I did play a pure warlock though, if I was a fighter with action surge and a bonus action attack, yeah I can see it being much better, but in that case just take magic initiate instead of warlock.

Hex being concentration is sorta crippling for a caster. Maybe if tomelocks or chainlocks got hex concentration free it might be worth it. Is it just me, or do chainlocks need love?

The new "max heal" invocation is interesting, but not particularly useful for the most part.

[Dudewithknives]

fighter capstone should have been something like "When you attack with advantage and hit, add your proficiency bonus to the damage. If you score a critical hit, add double your proficiency damage. this damage cannot be resisted in any way. "

also 4th attack moved to 17.

I would say "Whenever you critically hit, you also double static bonuses to your damage instead of only the dice. Additionally, when you activate Action Surge, you have resistance to all damage until the start of your next turn."
Then move 4th attack to 17th level.

But i digress and am derailing my own thread.

[Dudewithknives]

Hex being concentration is sorta crippling for a caster. Maybe tomelocks or chainlocks got hex concentration free it might be worth it. Is it just me, or do chainlocks need love?

When I rewrote the Warlock as a non-caster, I gave Tome Warlocks a free floating invocation that they could change on a short rest by spending 25G in rare inks and inscribing the new one in their tome. Also, only they could read something written in their tome, not even magic can decipher what is in it.

[krugaan]

When I rewrote the Warlock as a non-caster, I gave Tome Warlocks a free floating invocation that they could change on a short rest by spending 25G in rare inks and inscribing the new one in their tome. Also, only they could read something written in their tome, not even magic can decipher what is in it.

Tomelocks are mostly fine as is. Free rituals are tons of fun.

Chainlocks should get some way to abuse demons, particularly since they added those demon summoning spells in the Xanathars. Instead of free hold monster on planars, they should get charm monster, or dominate monster for the same.

[Dudewithknives]

Tomelocks are mostly fine as is. Free rituals are tons of fun.

Chainlocks should get some way to abuse demons, particularly since they added those demon summoning spells in the Xanathars. Instead of free hold monster on planars, they should get charm monster, or dominate monster for the same.

With all the goodies that a chain lock can already do with their improved familiar they are fine, especially with the new invocation for chain locks.

I can agree on the charm/dominate as options for their higher level invocations though. Not all chain warlocks have to play like a dominating jerk, what if you are friendly and work well with the servants of your patron or other planar beings. Why only hold, they should get the option to charm.

[Easy_Lee]

Something to consider: a level 5 sorcerer can throw two Empowered fireballs per day. A level 5 fiend warlock can throw two per short rest. But a level 5 sorlock can't use third level spells at all.

The multiclass is powerful, and I do think three levels of warlock is ideal on a primary sorcerer. But it isn't free at all.

[krugaan]

Something to consider: a level 5 sorcerer can throw two Empowered fireballs per day. A level 5 fiend warlock can throw two per short rest. But a level 5 sorlock can't use third level spells at all.

The multiclass is powerful, and I do think three levels of warlock is ideal on a primary sorcerer. But it isn't free at all.

The only answer is better capstones. I think, actually, that the final three levels should all have good capstones, not that many people even get that high.

[mer.c]

The only answer is better capstones. I think, actually, that the final three levels should all have good capstones, not that many people even get that high.

Yeah, the design decision (I hope it was a decision and not a ****up...) to give diminishing returns for higher levels of many classes was an enormous mistake IMO. Sweeping the glaring balance issues under the rug with "Well you don't have to allow Multiclassing" (and feats, to a lesser extent) was a huge mistake.

[Dudewithknives]

So far this thread has been much more helpful than I expected. Good job people.

[krugaan]

So far this thread has been much more helpful than I expected. Good job people.

Well shoot, we can't have that, now, can we!

*ahem*

So, I challenge you to defet my cofeelok in a dool.

What, you do [insert anything]? Counterspel / wish / handwave!

See, I win.

[SharkForce]

My main issues is actually in the opposite direction.

It is not so much that the SORLOCK is superior to the Sorcerer so much, that could be debated depending on how badly you need 1 higher spell level vs so many front loaded abilities, it is more that it is just so much better than a base Warlock.

The base warlock can only break even with other casters if your DM actually gives you short rests twice per long rest, or even more at certain levels.

It is also an issue because a Sorcerer itself can out play the Warlock's main gimmick at most levels.

Ex.

@ level 9, a Warlock and a Sorcerer if pure classed both just got their 5th level slot, which is a big level for most casters.

A warlock has 2 5th level spell slots, but a Sorcerer only has 1.
The big difference being that the Warlock does not have any other ones, the Sorcerer still has 4 first level spell slots, and 3 of each level 2 - 4.

A warlock can get their level 5 spell slots back at the short rest.
So assuming that they actually get their 2 short rests per long rest, the Warlock can cast 6 spells of 5th level, regardless whether or not those spell slots scale or not. Need to burn a spell slot for Shield to keep from taking a hit, oh well, everyone else can spend a level 1 slot, you have to burn a level 5.

Here is the bigger problem:

The Sorcerer can buy spell slots with sorcerery points.
At the beginning the sorcerer would have 9 SP, he could just spend 7 of them to get a second 5th level slot too. Now he has 2 5th level slots just like the warlock, but he still has all the other spell levels.
Later if they cast their 5th level slots, if they really need to they can just spend those spell levels into SP to buy more.
If they just blow the spell levels that the Warlock never has in the first place, they could spend 28 SP to buy 4 more spell slots of 5th level, and would still have 5 SP left remaining.

So through the adventuring day he can have just as many spell slots of 5th level as the Warlock can, only if the need to, or can just keep their massively more spell slots they get normally, and they can do all this without taking a short rest at all, they just need some bonus actions.

So just to break even with a base sorcerer a warlock of 9th level would have to have 3 short rests, per long rest just to be ahead by 2 spell slots.

Take 2 levels of Warlock for their great front loaded abilities, especially with Hexblade now, and you get the best of both worlds.

Also, the Cha to hit with weapons from the Hexblade is not really the big bonus, the proficiency in light and medium armor, shields and warlock curse are the big bonuses, along with more spells known which is always huge.

the sorcerer *could* exchange all their spells to level 5 slots to compete with the warlock.

but then they would be kinda like the warlock, only without any invocations, without armour proficiency, and without other meaningful class features (most sorcerer subclass features cost sorcerer points, and the only class feature worth anything at all outside of subclasses is metamagic, and guess what... that costs SP).

so basically, if the sorcerer really desperately wants, they could be a worse version of a warlock... or they could have just gone warlock in the first place and not be a worse version of a warlock.

and frankly, it really says something about how lousy it is to be a worse version of a warlock when it's already hard to get anyone to stay in warlock for more than a handful of levels, i can't imagine anyone being eager to be a worse version of that.

[Talamare]

What they need to do is remove Spell Slots from Sorcerer
and have them only have Spell Points (Yes, like the DMG)

Then Sorcerers will truly be living their unique niche of "I CAST WHAT I WANT"

[Dudewithknives]

the sorcerer *could* exchange all their spells to level 5 slots to compete with the warlock.

but then they would be kinda like the warlock, only without any invocations, without armour proficiency, and without other meaningful class features (most sorcerer subclass features cost sorcerer points, and the only class feature worth anything at all outside of subclasses is metamagic, and guess what... that costs SP).

so basically, if the sorcerer really desperately wants, they could be a worse version of a warlock... or they could have just gone warlock in the first place and not be a worse version of a warlock.

and frankly, it really says something about how lousy it is to be a worse version of a warlock when it's already hard to get anyone to stay in warlock for more than a handful of levels, i can't imagine anyone being eager to be a worse version of that.

It is not like they SHOULD do that, but the main gimmick the warlock has is getting spells back on a short rest.
If they really wanted to, a sorcerer can do the same thing without even having to get a short rest at all.
Also the Warlock is proficient in light armor only, and draconic sorcerers start with better ac than you could ever get with light armor unless it is magic. If a warlock wants a similar effect they have to spend an invocation.

Essentially a sorcerer has the option if they really wanted to, to play the warlock's game if they really wanted to, or they could just play the normal sorcerer game, it is not like it takes a special build, or feats either, it is just built into the class starting at level 2.

[Dalebert]

Hexblade made it worse but I think they're a little bit over-rated. It's still a price you will feel every time you level up and could have been 2 levels further along with access to higher level spells and more and better spell slots. Even the coffee lock thing is a bit over-rated. It is nice but it's a bit busy and high maintenance. Yes, you have the ability to make extra slots but once you reach a certain level sorc, you don't really need them so badly. My sorc 17 / lock 3 loves it for the imp more than anything. He always has tons of slots left at the end of the day anyway so it's just gravy.

If anything, I feel like the problem here isn't that sorlocks are too good and make warlocks look bad. Warlocks aren't great to begin with. They're front-loaded but they need better treatment later on in their career. It seems like a horrible mistake to put them on this unique and bizarre short rest mechanic for renewing a tiny number of spell slots. It just feels like they jumped the shark trying to figure out how to balance their spell ability with their invocations to end up there.

[Soleil]

Don't y'all think the hexblade makes the straight warlock a bit more attractive? At least a hexblade-blade would be willing to go to at least level 12 for lifedrinker. Lvl 14 is decent and at lvl 17 there's foresight...

Might not compare to the sorcerer's casting capabilities, but it makes for a good melee striker on its own.

[Easy_Lee]

Don't y'all think the hexblade makes the straight warlock a bit more attractive? At least a hexblade-blade would be willing to go to at least level 12 for lifedrinker. Lvl 14 is decent and at lvl 17 there's foresight...

Might not compare to the sorcerer's casting capabilities, but it makes for a good melee striker on its own.

To add to this, a tenth level hexblade who casts Mirror Image requires multiple rolls for the target of his curse to even have a chance to hit him with an attack.

[Kobard]

What they need to do is remove Spell Slots from Sorcerer
and have them only have Spell Points (Yes, like the DMG)

Then Sorcerers will truly be living their unique niche of "I CAST WHAT I WANT"I have also seen "sorcery points" proposed for warlocks, since max slot Shield (in the case of Hexblades) or other non-scaling spell is a waste. So sorcery points or mana points would at least give warlocks more freedom of power in each cast.

[Easy_Lee]

I have also seen "sorcery points" proposed for warlocks, since max slot Shield (in the case of Hexblades) or other non-scaling spell is a waste. So sorcery points or mana points would at least give warlocks more freedom of power in each cast.

This is the single biggest problem with warlocks. Sorcerers would benefit from spell points, but it would open up entire other playstyles for warlocks.

Having warlocks cast from some sort of warlock point system would also prevent coffeelock from working so, to any coffeelock haters, there you go. Two birds, one stone.

[Talamare]

I have also seen "sorcery points" proposed for warlocks, since max slot Shield (in the case of Hexblades) or other non-scaling spell is a waste. So sorcery points or mana points would at least give warlocks more freedom of power in each cast.

At that point we basically just get a Monk

[Easy_Lee]

At that point we basically just get a Monk

Except that warlocks don't fill the same role.

[Soleil]

To add to this, a tenth level hexblade who casts Mirror Image requires multiple rolls for the target of his curse to even have a chance to hit him with an attack.

Does the images also use armor of hexes?

[Dudewithknives]

Does the images also use armor of hexes?

No, it is specifically on you.

[mer.c]

I have also seen "sorcery points" proposed for warlocks, since max slot Shield (in the case of Hexblades) or other non-scaling spell is a waste. So sorcery points or mana points would at least give warlocks more freedom of power in each cast.

That's... wow that's a great idea. The idea of spending half your spell slots (SR dependent, yada yada) to cast a level-3 Shield always felt terrible to me. This seems like it would be a good fix, and also addresses several of my MC pet peeves.

[Dudewithknives]

To add to this, a tenth level hexblade who casts Mirror Image requires multiple rolls for the target of his curse to even have a chance to hit him with an attack.

Other than Hex Blade Warlocks do not know mirror image.

So the only way you are going to get it is with the feat magical initiate and picking it as the one 1st level spell you get to choose, or multi classing to a different caster after 10 levels of warlock already.

[Easy_Lee]

Other than Hex Blade Warlocks do not know mirror image.

So the only way you are going to get it is with the feat magical initiate and picking it as the one 1st level spell you get to choose, or multi classing to a different caster after 10 levels of warlock already.

Or by taking sorcerer levels. But you can pull a similar trick with darkness or that new obscurement spell.

[Dudewithknives]

Or by taking sorcerer levels. But you can pull a similar trick with darkness or that new obscurement spell.

Shadow of Moil, or as i call it, darkness that does not piss off your own team and has bonuses.
It is concentration and has a retaliation attack that only works in 10 feet but still very nice when you would have been throwing out darkness with a level 4 spell slot anyway.

[SharkForce]

It is not like they SHOULD do that, but the main gimmick the warlock has is getting spells back on a short rest.
If they really wanted to, a sorcerer can do the same thing without even having to get a short rest at all.
Also the Warlock is proficient in light armor only, and draconic sorcerers start with better ac than you could ever get with light armor unless it is magic. If a warlock wants a similar effect they have to spend an invocation.

Essentially a sorcerer has the option if they really wanted to, to play the warlock's game if they really wanted to, or they could just play the normal sorcerer game, it is not like it takes a special build, or feats either, it is just built into the class starting at level 2.

no, you can play the warlock's game except massively worse. it's the difference between a level 10 fighter making an attack action and a level 10 wizard making an attack action. the wizard can do "the same thing" as the fighter, sort of, but the wizard won't be nearly as good at it. likewise, a sorcerer can do "the same thing" as a warlock, but only if they're going to be much much worse at it. the sorcerer will have no other meaningful class features (and no, 1 point of AC over a warlock who isn't even trying, and even that only if you don't have magical armour at level 10, is *not* a meaningful class feature, *if* you even choose to be a draconic sorcerer). the warlock will have several, including having one heck of a cantrip (or a much stronger melee attack) to back them up in the many many rounds where they aren't spending a level 5 spell slot, since that only happens in 6 rounds out of the entire adventuring day.

furthermore, one level later the warlock hits their next power spike with 3 spells per short rest, and now the sorcerer can't do remotely the same thing any more.

this is not a problem. both classes have their flaws. this is not one of them.

[Dalebert]

At that point we basically just get a Monk

I have no problem with them sharing the same basic mechanic. They're still doing radically different things. Consistent mechanics for resource mgmt is a good thing. It makes the game simpler but the flavor remains.

[Dudewithknives]

I wonder if because of the new invocations that more Sorlock will take 3 of warlock instead of the 2 I see all the time.

[MrBig]

I wonder if because of the new invocations that more Sorlock will take 3 of warlock instead of the 2 I see all the time.

?
Warlocks don’t get invocations at lvl 3.
Level 3 is when you get your pact (Chain/blade/tome).

[Dudewithknives]

?
Warlocks don’t get invocations at lvl 3.
Level 3 is when you get your pact (Chain/blade/tome).

When you hit 3 you can chase out one you know for a new one, like one that requires a certain pact.

[Gtdead]

The true reason that Sorlock is such a desirable build, is because most high lvl spells suck hard for combat. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it, no matter those guides claiming Disintegrate is skyblue. Who gives a crap about Disintegrate. 10d6 + 40 (75 dmg) for a lvl 6 spell that can miss, especially with that thing called Legendary Resistance in the game? I mean, what the hell, I'm pretty sure that even monk, if he tries hard enough, can nova for that much. He can instead go for Animate Objects, a really AWESOME spell, that deals 10d4+40 (65) per round. But DM can counter easily at those levels. It's a risk. So why do it?

He can just quicken a Firebolt and deal 6d10+10 (43) for the cost of a lvl 1 spell. Or he can go Sorc 9/Lock 2 and deal 6d10 + 30 (63), for the same cost. The only thing he will ever sacrifice is getting Wish later, which is usually an ok tradeoff, since most campaigns won't reach that lvl.