Sorcadin Question

[the_brazenburn]

I'm considering rolling up a Sorcadin and I had a few significant questions about the build.

1. First, I've heard a lot of people saying that the build is OP. Is this really that broken, or is it passable?

2. Second, what sort of race/subclass/ability arrangement would work best? I'm hoping for a blastery-type guy who can also step into melee in a pinch.

3. Finally, does Divine Smite work on melee spell attacks (such as Blight)? This would seem to be kind of OP, but I can't find anything explicitly wrong with it...

Thanks for any advice you can lend me!

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm considering rolling up a Sorcadin and I had a few significant questions about the build.

1. First, I've heard a lot of people saying that the build is OP. Is this really that broken, or is it passable?

2. Second, what sort of race/subclass/ability arrangement would work best? I'm hoping for a blastery-type guy who can also step into melee in a pinch.

3. Finally, does Divine Smite work on melee spell attacks (such as Blight)? This would seem to be kind of OP, but I can't find anything explicitly wrong with it...

Thanks for any advice you can lend me!

1. Depends on the power level of the rest of the party, and of the game as a whole. IN a general sense, it isn't OP. In certain games it might be.

2. Race plays no role in any build in 5e. There are no optimized races. There are only certain races that get max stats a few levels earlier. Bounded Accuracy makes this a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. as for subclass, there are lots that work depending on the flavor you want. As for being a blaster who can step into melee in a pinch, Paladin isn't even needed if you play Stone or Dragon.

3. Divine Smite works only on melee weapon attacks. It works with certain spells (such as Greenflame Blade) that allow a melee weapon attack, but with strictly melee spell attacks it's a No-Go.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm considering rolling up a Sorcadin and I had a few significant questions about the build.

1. First, I've heard a lot of people saying that the build is OP. Is this really that broken, or is it passable?

2. Second, what sort of race/subclass/ability arrangement would work best? I'm hoping for a blastery-type guy who can also step into melee in a pinch.

3. Finally, does Divine Smite work on melee spell attacks (such as Blight)? This would seem to be kind of OP, but I can't find anything explicitly wrong with it...

Thanks for any advice you can lend me!

1) Let me put it this way: On Sunday I was playing my tier 3 Soradin. He was level 13 with 9 levels of Paladin, 4 levels of Sorcerer. His Oath of the Ancients aura trivialized the encounter with the mindflayers because their spells did nothing.

And before we had run into the mindflayers we had fought something that was supposed to be a big nasty fight. The Portent wizard managed to paralyze one enemy, and my Paladin crit smited three times in a row. In a single turn my Paladin did a total of 220 damage. Over half of that was Smite Damage alone. Now, that is a Paladin being a Paladin, but Quicken Green Flame Blade certainly helped out to give .e the three attacks. Now I can cast Haste on myself, so I could technically Smite four times in a round, and I have three 4th slots and one 5th slot to smite with. So if I end up in a situation where an enemy is Paralyzed again, that will be 40d8 smite damage alone.

2) This really depends on a few things. Varient Human is always an excellent choice. The free feat can net you a lot. If you are playing outside of AL, and your DM lets you use the PHB+2 or more, Yuan-Ti and Asamair are excellent Soradins. Half Elves also make excellent Soradins since you gain +2 Charisma and a +1 to two abilities. And finally, plain old human is fun too.

3) You sadly need a weapon attack to smite, so you can't really smite on most melee spells. That said, Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade allows you to smite.

EDIT: Even without the Wizard having paralized my target, my Soradin tends to shine extremly well. Generally I am able to act as a one man Tank, Controller, Nova expert, Healer, Party Face, and Party Buffer. So I can fit most roles in a party.

[Byke]

Best guide around for Sorcadins....lots of good info and all of the options explained.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

[Alatar]

I've started looking at sorcadin for my next character. Gastronomie's build guide, referenced above, is unusually good.

Is the sorcadin overpowered? I don't know. I haven't played it. But it doesn't look overpowered. Why would it be overpowered? Well, you've got a paladin with extra smites, abjuration spells, haste, greater invisibility and improved action economy. So there is a case to be made. But let's try to undermine it.

Because it has two primary stats and a secondary stat that is common and fairly important to both classes, you're in a min/max situation. And Wisdom and Dexterity are going to be two of your three dump stats. Those are the saves that come up most often. So your sorcadin, for all his might and glory, is going to take it in the teeth with some frequency. Yes, there are build features that mitigate these glaring flaws. Otherwise the question of being overpowered would not be at issue. But the flaws are there.

You are going to go last in every encounter. I don't know how you feel about that. To me, it really hurts. Big tactical hole. You don't get to seize the moment and shape the encounter. You'er always starting on your back foot. But not everyone agrees about the importance of Initiative.

If you are using point buy and you want to start with three 16s, you are playing a half-elf or a variant human with Resilient-Con as your feat. If you can deal with odd numbers in primary stats starting out, there are other options. Half orc starts you at 17 STR, 16 CON, 15 CHA. That 17 looks kinda sexy, but after one ASI, the half-orc and half-elf/v-human are dead even in stats and the human is proficient in CON.

Except you might pump 2 in CHA rather than STR with the half-elf/v-human, because a caster's spell DC is more critical to his success than a melee guys STR mod. The 18 STR at 4th is tempting, though. You're starting with Paladin. At 4th level, you are probably still all paladin. And according to the plan, you'll always be fighting like a paladin. Pumping CHA at that moment would be long term planning over immediate reward, which doesn't sound fun. But it's a MAD build with a critical path and you are probably losing an ASI/Feat choice along the way because the natural splits between classes do not line up with the ASI levels.

Besides needing to maintain two primary stats with your one-less-than-normal ASIs, you really need Warcaster. At least you do if you're going sword and board, which is my preference. Taking sorcerer hit points into melee makes that +2 to AC look awfully good.

I've gone on long enough. It's a narrow build path with built-in flaws and compromises at every turn, but you do appear to end up with a paladin with extra smites, abjuration spells, haste, greater invisibility and improved action economy. And the paladin is one of the strongest classes to begin with. Maybe it is fair to say it's overpowered. I certainly wouldn't say it's broken. And it comes at a price.

[Rysto]

Sorcadin is OP in a campaign where the DM doesn't follow the DMG recommended encounter guidelines. If it's unconstrained by resources like spell slots and sorcery points it can really bring the hurt. If a Sorcadin is forced to pick their spots over the course of a long adventuring day, then it's fine.

[Gtdead]

I believe that Sorcadin is the most powerful build in the game. It can solo any level appropriate deadly encounter at all levels, it combines high defense and high nova damage with spell support and naturally high charisma, meaning that he can plug almost any hole in the party.

If I had to play a solo campaign, Paladin 2/Sorcerer X would be my first choice. Probably GFB based, Vhuman, Dragonic Sorcerer (Fire).

Smite only works whenever you use your weapon to deal damage, either through attack action, or a weapon based cantrip.

[Chugger]

That link that Byke gave you is amazing - very thorough - but not sure if it covers XgtE yet (I'll go look when I can).

Your basic questions have been answered.

Mainly a sorcadin is very flexible. It can do amazing single target damage via multiple Divine Smites. You can Quicken or Twin the SCAG cantrips (bb and gfb) to great effect, but in AL the +1 rule forces you to make a choice: phb + scag or phb + xgte.

You have some basic choices: sword and board (some 1d8 one hander and shield) or 2 hander - or dex and rapier and shield.

The other basic choice is go for aura (pal 6 at least) or go for ultra strong caster (only pal 2). If you go strong caster you will get wish if you play enough and get very high lvl, and you will be a strong caster - as well as a very strong meleer and tank - but - you will miss that lvl 6 pal aura - this is a very hard call to make, though for some there is no question - the aura is amazing (in fact some highly recommend going oath of ancients 7 to get the aura and spell resistance - which is not amazing if you're fighting things that don't cast - but truly amazing if you fight things that do cast).

But how do I melee attack more than once a turn if I'm only Pal 2? By using quicken and/or twin on green flame blade and booming blade, the scag cantrips.

If you are optimizing the only real choice for race sadly is half elf with var human running a very close second. Almost all races "work" with this but some will be noticeably weaker than others. You won't be "awful" if you pick a non optimal race - you'll just occasionally miss more often or have fewer hp or something. Oh you need 13 str and 13 cha to make this work, to qualify for multiclassing in these two (pal and sorc).

On MADness - meaning you're many ability dependent (or multiple) - you need str to hit (or dex if you go dex) - but you need cha to cast. A one-dip into hexblade solves this but commits you to XgtE - which is okay. You'd probably go pal 6/ hexblade 1/ and then sorc for the rest. This is a build that doesn't really shine (as a ful sorc) until about overall lvl 10 or a bit more, when you got the sorc part going. Oh, in case you don't know - you dip into hexblade mostly to get the feature that lets you use cha to add to your attack and damage rolls - and use a 1 hand weapon - you have to go to lvl 3 at least to use a 2 hander with this feature, if I read it correctly.

For full cheese go half elf, get the new x feat Elven Accuracy, go shadow sorc or dip 3 into hexblade - probably shadow sorc - and you can see and fight in darkness giving you adv on all hits most of the time. And you will be amazing - very very cheesy but amazing.

[Lombra]

If you want to stay blaster with melee as a side option, going paladin 2/sorcerer x will give you what you want. Lots of good smites early, and good sorcerer progression to reach high level spells relatively quickly.

Edit: half-elf is the nost useful race for the build.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'm currently building a Paladin (Devotion) for a Curse of Strahd based adventure. Since it's just me and 1 other player, I've been looking into what I can do. We're starting at 3rd level.

I've pondered a Warlock dip, a Divine Soul dip, or just grabbing Magic Initiate at 4th for an attack cantrip.

So far, since I'm not sure how long the game will last and what level we will reach, the MI feat is winning out. But I'm keeping the Sorc or Lock option open in case the game goes that way and I can RP the dip well.