OOTS #1106 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ruck

2017-11-28, 03:58 PM

Heh. I was excited when the calendar post went up, and my prayers were answered a few minutes later!

As I suspected, Hilgya is here for some sort of revenge on Durkon, not to save the world-- and, as I correctly surmised, Loki nudged her in that direction because of her own vengeance trip, not to stop the Godsmoot, which might be a violation of the rules.

Though it remains an open question as to why she wanted to know Durkon's location -- possible she asked for it and Loki told her where to find him with the instructions "go kill him".

I think it's pretty clear why she wanted Durkon's location, or have you not noticed the baby she's been carrying?

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 04:02 PM

I just love V's comment.

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ?

Felius

2017-11-28, 04:02 PM

Now, I was very sure that the Baby was Durkon's, but, now, after this in-universe lampshading of how sure it was that it was so, I'm actually starting to consider that it might turn out to not be so...

Ted The Bug

2017-11-28, 04:05 PM

She seems awfully calm about running into the Order again. I guess someone's in for a surprise.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 04:05 PM

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ?

It feels like an euphemism for sex, given that it is Belkar. In any case, I've never heard of it before, if it is indeed slang.

this in-universe lampshading

All lampshades are in-universe. That's what makes them lampshades.

GW

Xanyo

2017-11-28, 04:07 PM

AstralFire

2017-11-28, 04:07 PM

I think it's pretty clear why she wanted Durkon's location, or have you not noticed the baby she's been carrying?

'Why' meaning 'what did she want from him that made her pray to Loki every night to know his location'?

She could be the one who wants to kill him, or she could have simply been instructed to do so. I suspect the former, but we'll see.

Synesthesy

2017-11-28, 04:07 PM

OK, so she's still a cleric of Loki, but no explanation as to how she Turned rather than Rebuked Undead.

GW

Are we now sure that Loki is evil? Maybe he is the one neutral...

Hardcore

2017-11-28, 04:09 PM

Yeah, belkar said durkon got laid, which was a bit unlikely. Short, bearded, smelly men are not so hot.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 04:11 PM

Are we now sure that Loki is evil? Maybe he is the one neutral...

Again: SoD talks about Evil gods defending the Dark One, and shows Loki defending the Dark One. At this point, I would say it is more likely that Loki is an Evil god who hates undead and therefore grants turning rather than rebuking. Lots of gods, even Evil ones, are known to have issues with undead and thus do not allow their clergy to command them - and I can easily imagine that Hel might have had a bit of a hand in ensuring she was the only undead deity of the northern pantheon.

Grey Wolf

Peelee

2017-11-28, 04:11 PM

Huh. So I guess we can write out "dramatic alignment shift."

Though it remains an open question as to why she wanted to know Durkon's location, whether for reconciliation or for revenge -- possible she asked for it and Loki told her how to find him with the instructions "go kill him".

Count me in the "kill him" as a turn of phrase camp.

Also, I think I may have just started my own camp,

nrwillick

2017-11-28, 04:11 PM

"Slipped one past the guardian"

This made me laugh for 45 seconds straight.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-11-28, 04:13 PM

I just love V's comment.

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ?

It's not slang, surprisingly, but a reference to any number of old tales where the knight has to get past the guardian to get the girl. Most famous example currently would be the subversion in the first Shrek movie, which ends up going straight (so, a double subversion, I guess).

And yes, V knows how reality works rather well.

AstralFire

2017-11-28, 04:13 PM

Count me in the "kill him" as a turn of phrase camp.

Also, I think I may have just started my own camp,

What kind of turn of phrase would that be?

...Not including the French one.

2.5 cats

2017-11-28, 04:13 PM

RblDiver

2017-11-28, 04:14 PM

OG LG indeed!

Ruck

2017-11-28, 04:14 PM

I just love V's comment.

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ?

It feels like an euphemism for sex, given that it is Belkar. In any case, I've never heard of it before, if it is indeed slang.
"Slipping one past the goalie" is a euphemism for impregnating a woman. (I think it maybe originated from Seinfeld?) I'm assuming hockey doesn't exist in OOTS-world, so "guardian" is the universe-appropriate substitute.

'Why' meaning 'what did she want from him that made her pray to Loki every night to know his location'?

She could be the one who wants to kill him, or she could have simply been instructed to do so. I suspect the former, but we'll see.

Well, if he's her baby-daddy, as all evidence seems to suggest, she could want a lot of things from him-- although killing him for knocking her up and then sending her away certainly seems more than plausible to me.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 04:15 PM

I always thought of Hilgya as chaotic neutral--committed to personal freedom. Not sure if Loki would be Chaotic Neutral of Chaotic Evil in this world, but clerics are allowed to be one "step" apart in alignment from their god so either way a non-evil cleric of Loki is perfectly legit.

Sure, but an Evil god doesn't grant turning by default, not even to its non-Evil clerics. Only Neutral gods allow their clerics to pick.

GW

Ornithologist

2017-11-28, 04:15 PM

I'm sure she's here for revenge at this point.

Which is funny, because I'm sure if she were to ask Durkon to help raise the baby he would, Cause duty.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-11-28, 04:15 PM

I always thought of Hilgya as chaotic neutral--committed to personal freedom. Not sure if Loki would be Chaotic Neutral of Chaotic Evil in this world, but clerics are allowed to be one "step" apart in alignment from their god so either way a non-evil cleric of Loki is perfectly legit.

D&D metaphysics says Loki has to be Neutral or Good for one of his clerics to Turn Undead. As yet, we don't know if the Giant is using that rule or decided to do something different.

Peelee

2017-11-28, 04:16 PM

What kind of turn of phrase would that be?

...Not including the French one.

I take it you've never been married.:smalltongue:

Maybe "hyperbole" would have been better?

littlebum2002

2017-11-28, 04:17 PM

I love how many punchlines are basically direct jabs at forum users.

Giggling Ghast

2017-11-28, 04:17 PM

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ?

It's a reference to "slipped one past the goalie," which is slang for "impregnated your girl despite using protection." Well, in Canada, anyway.

FlawedParadigm

2017-11-28, 04:17 PM

Something something...probability...drama...alley...copper-piece harlot...something something. Ah, poor V. Logic so rarely triumphs in the world of storytelling.

SavageWombat

2017-11-28, 04:18 PM

I still think Hilgya is CN, but that doesn't preclude revenge.

I think what this strip does tell us is that Rich doesn't intend to clear up the mystery of Hilgya's motivations at this time - it's a deliberate ambiguity.

Rjaye

2017-11-28, 04:18 PM

I am loving this vampire arc!

Tom Lehmann

2017-11-28, 04:19 PM

Well, if he's her baby-daddy, as all evidence seems to suggest, she could want a lot of things from him-- although killing him for knocking her up and then sending her away certainly seems more than plausible to me.
Or, for the hypocrisy of lecturing her on duty, while not doing his duty to either A) avoid impregnating her or B) check to see if he has and then do his duty to his child...

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 04:19 PM

It's not slang, surprisingly, but a reference to any number of old tales where the knight has to get past the guardian to get the girl. Most famous example currently would be the subversion in the first Shrek movie, which ends up going straight (so, a double subversion, I guess).

"Slipping one past the goalie" is a euphemism for impregnating a woman. (I think it maybe originated from Seinfeld?) I'm assuming hockey doesn't exist in OOTS-world, so "guardian" is the universe-appropriate substitute.
Thanks

What kind of turn of phrase would that be?

...Not including the French one.

The Undead kind of course.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 04:20 PM

I think what this strip does tell us is that Rich doesn't intend to clear up the mystery of Hilgya's motivations at this time - it's a deliberate ambiguity.

I'm baffled by this assertion. Her motivation seems quite clear: to kill the father of her baby for having gotten her pregnant and then abandoning her.

The interesting thing will be to how she reacts to Durkon already being dead and his former body now being taken over by Greg.

GW

2D8HP

2017-11-28, 04:21 PM

"Not now, Mommy's making a dramatic entrance"

Priceless!

:biggrin:

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 04:23 PM

Or, for the hypocrisy of lecturing her on duty, while not doing his duty to either A) avoid impregnating her or B) check to see if he has and then do his duty to his child...

If it's B it's a double serving of hypocrisy since she could have Sent to him anytime.
Aaaaaaah break-ups are always such messy things.

AutomatedTeller

2017-11-28, 04:25 PM

Awesome, as always!

This was probably answered in the 50+ pages of the 1105 thread, but why is it that Roy took no damage from that Flame Strike the vamp used? Is it because of his sword?

Liwen

2017-11-28, 04:26 PM

I was just about to comment about Haley saying : '"Ok, guys, here's the the thing:", but then the Giant ninja edited the comic before I logged in to post.

In other news, we need to name this baby. I propose Lokor Fireshield, after Loki and Thor and Durkon and Hilgya's last names.

I never said I was good at naming things.

Lheticus

2017-11-28, 04:30 PM

FlawedParadigm

2017-11-28, 04:30 PM

Awesome, as always!

This was probably answered in the 50+ pages of the 1105 thread, but why is it that Roy took no damage from that Flame Strike the vamp used? Is it because of his sword?

While we're pointing out things someone else has already gotten to; has it been noted that Minrah anagrams to "in harm?" That may bode poorly for her.

2.5 cats

2017-11-28, 04:34 PM

This was probably answered in the 50+ pages of the 1105 thread, but why is it that Roy took no damage from that Flame Strike the vamp used? Is it because of his sword?

I always assumed that OotS characters had to take a certain % of their hit points as damage before we start seeing visible wounds. Assuming the cleric was level 9, rolled below-average on damage, and Roy made his save, he took around 10 hit points damage, which could be a tiny enough fraction of his total not to be visible.

WindStruck

2017-11-28, 04:35 PM

The_Weirdo

2017-11-28, 04:38 PM

Huh. So I guess we can write out "dramatic alignment shift."

I still don't think she's CE at current - neither do I think she was then.

Though it remains an open question as to why she wanted to know Durkon's location, whether for reconciliation or for revenge -- possible she asked for it and Loki told her how to find him with the instructions "go kill him".

Now, now. Let's be honest. She wants to kill Durkon.

Ruck

2017-11-28, 04:38 PM

In other news, we need to name this baby. I propose Lokor Fireshield, after Loki and Thor and Durkon and Hilgya's last names.

I never said I was good at naming things.
I'm going with "Durkson" until I get an actual name or the child is revealed not to be Durkon's.

schmunzel

2017-11-28, 04:38 PM

It feels like an euphemism for sex, given that it is Belkar. In any case, I've never heard of it before, if it is indeed slang.

All lampshades are in-universe. That's what makes them lampshades.

GW

I would assume the guardian was the contraception spell Hylgia *supposedly* was assumed to have used
Thus Freyas involvement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) perhaps the strip marked durkonsens birth (cave: wild theory)??

sch

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 04:38 PM

Coolio Wolfus

2017-11-28, 04:43 PM

Is that even possible ?

It's OotS, nuff said.

Vendanna

2017-11-28, 04:43 PM

I would assume the guardian was the contraception spell Hylgia *supposedly* was assumed to have used
Thus Freyas involvement

sch

I thought guardian was that spell from d1 with the hydra head shooting flaming bolts :P

Well, even thou freya makes more sense, I still will vouch for "fertility goddess" taking a revenge on thor for passing her saving throw.

Love how the lil' baby is moving his tiny hands towards the family heirloom, and as everyone knows with lil babies, if you leave them alone they will take 1 round to get themselves a choking hazard on their lil mouths. >.< You cannot leave them alone.

Morquard

2017-11-28, 04:45 PM

Well, whoever called it that Roy has no clue who she is, just won :)

Kardwill

2017-11-28, 04:46 PM

Is that even possible ?

If things were as simple as "She could have SENT to him", she would have used it to lure him to a trap, or at sent a scathing message about his child, long ago. So we should assume it's not as simple as a phone call.

Kantaki

2017-11-28, 04:48 PM

All I can say is Elan is awesome.
Not only does he remember who Hilgya is and how they met her, no he greets her like an old friend.:smallbiggrin:

I guess having a inn-keeper mom helps with stuff like that.:smallamused:

Kardwill

2017-11-28, 04:48 PM

Well, even thou freya makes more sense, I still will vouch for "fertility goddess" taking a revenge on thor for passing her saving throw.

By having a Thor follower impregnate and abandon a Loki follower, thus repeating what happened to her? Don't sound very logical, even for a petty revenge.

Skull the Troll

2017-11-28, 04:49 PM

New comic is up.

56 pages of intense argument made moot in 2 panels. :)

I still think Hilgya is CN, but that doesn't preclude revenge.

I think what this strip does tell us is that Rich doesn't intend to clear up the mystery of Hilgya's motivations at this time - it's a deliberate ambiguity.

What part of "Help murder Durkon" is ambiguous? Honestly I think the bigger issue will come when she realizes its probably possible to reconcile with the new Durkon and live with him ever after. (which would be short, but she doesnt know that)

schmunzel

2017-11-28, 04:51 PM

I thought guardian was that spell from d1 with the hydra head shooting flaming bolts :P

Well, even thou freya makes more sense, I still will vouch for "fertility goddess" taking a revenge on thor for passing her saving throw.

Love how the lil' baby is moving his tiny hands towards the family heirloom, and as everyone knows with lil babies, if you leave them alone they will take 1 round to get themselves a choking hazard on their lil mouths. >.< You cannot leave them alone.

well the guardian is whoever is tasked with guarding the entrance.

sch

Keltest

2017-11-28, 04:52 PM

If things were as simple as "She could have SENT to him", she would have used it to lure him to a trap, or at sent a scathing message about his child, long ago. So we should assume it's not as simple as a phone call.

Its on the cleric spell list and Durkon wasn't under the Cloister spell at any point. So far as we know theres nothing stopping her from sending to him if she wanted to. That suggests that her goals at such that he wouldn't appreciate them.

hroþila

2017-11-28, 04:54 PM

Ionbound

2017-11-28, 04:55 PM

Again: SoD talks about Evil gods defending the Dark One, and shows Loki defending the Dark One. At this point, I would say it is more likely that Loki is an Evil god who hates undead and therefore grants turning rather than rebuking. Lots of gods, even Evil ones, are known to have issues with undead and thus do not allow their clergy to command them - and I can easily imagine that Hel might have had a bit of a hand in ensuring she was the only undead deity of the northern pantheon.

Grey Wolf

I mean honestly Loki being CN and defending the Dark One just 'cus still kinda fits his personality. Or yeah CE and hates undead. Either or works.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 04:58 PM

Well, whoever called it that Roy has no clue who she is, just won :)

Exactly, this is the oots world, you gotta do your entries properly.

Roy and Belkar probably forgot about her the moment she was not in their line of sight.
V and Haley could go either way.
Elan has probably been watching for this chekov's gun the whole time.
Yay, I won! Nobody cares.
Also, I'am glad that Hilgya agrees with meabout entrances.

If things were as simple as "She could have SENT to him", she would have used it to lure him to a trap, or at sent a scathing message about his child, long ago. So we should assume it's not as simple as a phone call.
Good point. I trust this will be adressed either in a couple comic or during Durkon and Hilgya's reunion.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-28, 04:59 PM

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ? A colorful allusion, Belkar style, to Durkon having sex with Hilgya and the result thereof.

Yeah, belkar said durkon got laid, which was a bit unlikely. Short, bearded, smelly men are not so hot. Hmm, seems uncharitable.

It's not slang, surprisingly, but a reference to any number of old tales where the knight has to get past the guardian to get the girl. Most famous example currently would be the subversion in the first Shrek movie, which ends up going straight (so, a double subversion, I guess). I'd forgotten about Shrek, good point.

I'm sure she's here for revenge at this point. Which is funny, because I'm sure if she were to ask Durkon to help raise the baby he would, Cause duty. That's what I'd guess.

I love how many punchlines are basically direct jabs at forum users. Forum users had 56 pages worth of potential estimation and guessing. I am not sure Rich needs to do that ....

"Not now, Mommy's making a dramatic entrance"

Priceless! Great opening line.

I also love how I was right about Elan and Haley remembering Hilgya, and how some of the forum posters were right that Roy would not remember ...

Thank you Giant!

Psyren

2017-11-28, 05:04 PM

If it's B it's a double serving of hypocrisy since she could have Sent to him anytime.

And reveal that she's looking for him?

This is the same chick who kept feeding her loving husband poison. She may not be all there.

Tundar

2017-11-28, 05:07 PM

OG LG indeed!

Someone explain the OG part to me please

ThePhantasm

2017-11-28, 05:07 PM

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-28, 05:08 PM

This was probably answered in the 50+ pages of the 1105 thread, but why is it that Roy took no damage from that Flame Strike the vamp used? Is it because of his sword? Yeah, somewhere late in the thread, it was discussed that it wasn't enough to register, not due to the sword as far as we could tell from evidence drawn form the battle with Durkula during Godsmoot.

GrayDeath

2017-11-28, 05:09 PM

Well, given how we`ve seen him act in the comic, I`d peg Loki as CN myself.

Also: Maybe she only wants to make him regret it (a LOT)? I mean that might be more cruel and hence vengeance-completing than simply kill him (also she can still do a repeat-performance if necessary)...only to realize hes a Vampire now, and that killing him might actually help him...but Durkula cant be punished otherwise, as he does not react like Durkon?

Complex possibilities...

Dark_T_Zeratul

2017-11-28, 05:09 PM

I'm baffled by this assertion. Her motivation seems quite clear: to kill the father of her baby for having gotten her pregnant and then abandoning her.Nah, her motivations are still quite murky; we can only speculate about WHY she wants to kill Durkon. Her intentions are quite clear, though; "I was told someone here needed help murdering Durkon Thundershield" doesn't leave much room for argument.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 05:11 PM

Someone explain the OG part to me please

It stands for Original Gangster*, ie she was doing it (being a member of the LG) before it was cool and all that.

"I was told someone here needed help murdering Durkon Thundershield" doesn't leave much room for argument.
I've got a 56-page long thread that says otherwise.

*Old Guard actually.

gamingfreak10

2017-11-28, 05:19 PM

I think the fact that she knows someone needs help murdering durkon, the order are durkon's friends, and they're fighting vampires pretty clearly implies she know's durkon is a vampire right now.

It's not guaranteed, but that's what I got out of the last couple strips.

Nomen

2017-11-28, 05:21 PM

I mean honestly Loki being CN and defending the Dark One just 'cus still kinda fits his personality. Or yeah CE and hates undead. Either or works.

I'm agree I'm actually leaning more towards CN myself, but I don't want to be one of those guys if there is that comic where we see that he's definitely evil. Right now I think the only thing we have seen him do which has much weight is the dwarf deal.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-28, 05:21 PM

I've got a 56-page long thread that says otherwise.
I was in that 56-page long thread that says ... a bunch of us had lots of time on our hands, and Rich took a (well deserved) break and the strip lingered for about two weeks before we got some answers.

dps

2017-11-28, 05:23 PM

It stands for Original Gangster, ie she was doing it (being a member of the LG) before it was cool and all that.

Nah, it means Old Guard.

Ruck

2017-11-28, 05:24 PM

I'm not particularly happy with the idea of Hilgya obsessing over Durkon, or anyone else really, simply for revenge over being spurned. Therefore, I choose to stick to my personal and increasingly unlikely theory: she knows Durkon is a vampire and wants to help destroy him (Loki told her), and the reason she had been praying to Loki hoping to learn of Durkon's whereabouts is that she wanted to tell him about Hilgyuson and she figured it'd be only proper to do it in person.

I will probably only be able to stick to this theory until the next strip comes along, so humour me.

She had his child. As someone who long argued that Hilgya wouldn't come back because being obsessed over a one-night stand would be bad characterization, the equation completely changes when Durkon isn't just a fling, but the father of her child.

Nah, it means Old Guard.

Can you find an example of "OG" being used in this manner? Every example from pop culture I've seen says Fyraltari's explanation is correct.

Morquard

2017-11-28, 05:28 PM

This strip strikes me as a bit odd. Hilgya is peculiarly nonchalant about meeting the order again. Shouldn't she assume that they are still allied with Durkon and would attempt to prevent her from killing him? How does she know their "strategy concerns" discussion doesn't involve subduing her? Why isn't one of her first questions "so where is Durkon, anyways?"

She obviously doesn't know about the Godsmoot but the fact that she doesn't ask these questions makes me think she does know that Durkon is vamped.

She came here knowing that someone is here looking to kill Durkon. She finds the Order, and Durkon isn't with them. So maybe she assumes Durkon betrayed them just like he betrayed her. Or Loki actually told her "Go there, you'll find the Order of the Stick, trying to kill Durkon"

Kantaki

2017-11-28, 05:28 PM

Someone explain the OG part to me please

It stands for Original Gangster, ie she was doing it (being a member of the LG) before it was cool and all that.

Nah, it means Old Guard.

Overzealous Gourmets.:smalltongue:
Or maybe Original Generation?:smallconfused:
Nah, that sounds silly.:smallbiggrin:

HalfTangible

2017-11-28, 05:29 PM

OK, so she's still a cleric of Loki, but no explanation as to how she Turned rather than Rebuked Undead.

Edit: also, not outright stated, but I think this page bolsters the case that she's unaware of Durkon's vampirization.

I love the baby just grabbing for the helmet.

GW

It's not impossible by any means. Being a cleric for a particular deity requires that your alignment be either your diety's alignment or one step away from it, and neutral clerics get to pick whether they turn or rebuke/bolster.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-28, 05:30 PM

Haley: leave it to Loki to find a loophole in the rules.

Possible double meaning pointing to Hilgya turning undead ... depending upon Loki's finally revealed (at some point) alignment.

IntelectPaladin

2017-11-28, 05:30 PM

Well. I'm still terrified at what happens next,
and still doubting any sort of happy ending here. There's too much pressure.
Still, at least they were perceptive.
Here's to hoping my doubts are entirely misplaced.
Thank you for reading this.

Kish

2017-11-28, 05:31 PM

Overzealous Gourmets.:smalltongue
Or maybe Original Generation?:smallconfused:
Nah, that sounds silly.:smallbiggrin:
Obsolete Goons. Not a nice thing to say about Hilgya, but...sometimes Elan's like that.

wingedcatgirl

2017-11-28, 05:33 PM

It's not impossible by any means. Being a cleric for a particular deity requires that your alignment be either your diety's alignment or one step away from it, and neutral clerics get to pick whether they turn or rebuke/bolster.

Neutral clerics only get to pick if the god is also Neutral.

Either Loki isn't evil, or something unusual is going on.

Kereminde

2017-11-28, 05:38 PM

Neutral clerics only get to pick if the god is also Neutral.

Either Loki isn't evil, or something unusual is going on.

It's Loki, something unusual going on is usual.

The MunchKING

2017-11-28, 05:42 PM

It feels like an euphemism for sex, given that it is Belkar. In any case, I've never heard of it before, if it is indeed slang.

I was thinking he meant contraception of some kind.

137beth

2017-11-28, 05:44 PM

So Haley, Elan, and Belkar on board with the forumite speculation.

Vendanna

2017-11-28, 05:50 PM

Neutral clerics only get to pick if the god is also Neutral.

Either Loki isn't evil, or something unusual is going on.

Maybe he ain't Chaotic Evil, but he is Neutral Evil, and he is using as loophole the "neutral" from the first alignement bar as if it where "neutral" on the good/evil axis, saying that should count as neutral for the picking part, since the rules doesn't pin point which "neutral" it refers to.

(ofc, that's my opinion since I don't have a hold of the rules) :P

The MunchKING

2017-11-28, 05:53 PM

If it's B it's a double serving of hypocrisy since she could have Sent to him anytime.
Aaaaaaah break-ups are always such messy things.

Only if Loki gave her Sending. Downside of being a Cleric is you rely on your God to give you spells. If Loki didn't want her getting in touch just to build this moment, she's not getting Sending.

Someone explain the OG part to me please

Original Group. :p :p

Although from what I understand the origin of the phase was Original Gangster, meaning a rapper who was a gangster before starting a rap career, but now it's being used to refer to anything that was in the group before it got famous.

Lethologica

2017-11-28, 05:59 PM

I always assumed that OotS characters had to take a certain % of their hit points as damage before we start seeing visible wounds. Assuming the cleric was level 9, rolled below-average on damage, and Roy made his save, he took around 10 hit points damage, which could be a tiny enough fraction of his total not to be visible.
In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Lien takes damage from Thor's Lightning, but no new visible wounds appear. So something like the mechanism you suggest is operational.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 06:01 PM

I was in that 56-page long thread that says ... a bunch of us had lots of time on our hands, and Rich took a (well deserved) break and the strip lingered for about two weeks before we got some answers.
Man, that hit close to home.

Nah, it means Old Guard.
That's actually way better. I don't care if it's true or not, I'm going to say that.

It's Loki, something unusual going on is usual.
Then, he should do something unusual by doing something usual. Now, let's see what would be usual for Loki to do... Gasp! He told Hylgia to betray the Order!

Now excuse me I am going to check for survivors among my neighbours.

Morquard

2017-11-28, 06:02 PM

Only if Loki gave her Sending. Downside of being a Cleric is you rely on your God to give you spells. If Loki didn't want her getting in touch just to build this moment, she's not getting Sending.

Well we know that Loki at least can give Sending, the Cleric of Loki in Greysky was the one who cast Sending for Haley.

It's also possible that Hilgya was harrassing Durkon via Sending for a while after their breakup, so he put her on the no-call list, so when she had something important to say, she couldn#t send anymore? Ok I kinda doubt that one myself

Shining Wrath

2017-11-28, 06:09 PM

Vaarsuvius wins the comic.
Loki didn't send his cleric to interfere with the Godsmoot - he sent one to kill Durkon Thundershield. Trickster God, is Tricksy.
Although, come to think of it, if the all-out assault by Thrym's frost giants didn't break the rules, there isn't anything Hilgya could possibly do that would break them.

Anyway, there's about to be some dramatic tension, because will Hilgya agree to murder Durkula but then resurrect Durkon? And can she be trusted to do so if she does agree?

JumboWheat01

2017-11-28, 06:14 PM

Aww... baby wants the helmet. Smart baby, always wear a helmet in combat situations.

atemu1234

2017-11-28, 06:20 PM

I am loving this vampire arc!

The forum four weeks ago: IDK about this arc, it seems to be getting a bit long, maybe we should end it quickly...
The forum now: I WILL PUT UP WITH ANYTHING SO LONG AS WE GET TO THE FANTASY MAURY-MOMENT.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 06:21 PM

Loki didn't send his cleric to interfere with the Godsmoot - he sent one to kill Durkon Thundershield. Trickster God, is Tricksy.
Although, come to think of it, if the all-out assault by Thrym's frost giants didn't break the rules, there isn't anything Hilgya could possibly do that would break them.

Why would the Order or crew of the Mechane be protected by the gods' rules ? The only Cleric aboard worships the Western Pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html), Roy and Belkar do not work for the Church of Hel anymore and the only member of the Order that's anything close to religious prays to a puppet that's unaffiliated with the Godsmoot.

Really they are just a band of adventurers working on nobody's behalf that would make good plunder and Thrym told his worshippers about them as a reward for their faith, that's all there is to see here.

Who says a girl can't take after her father, heh ?
(Or maybe trickery is a giant thing, Loki must have got it somewhere right ? That's pretty unlikely.)

Lethologica

2017-11-28, 06:24 PM

One way Sending wouldn't have gotten through is if Hilgya didn't start trying to find Durkon before he was vamped.

One reason Hilgya might not have tried Sending is if she always wanted to kill Durkon and specifically wanted to get the jump on him, in which case contacting him would be counterproductive.

Shining Wrath

2017-11-28, 06:25 PM

Hilgya has explicitly stated she wants to murder Durkon.
She is unaware of saving the world, so knows nothing of the Godsmoot.
I'm going to guess she doesn't know Durkon is a vampire.

Rich is simply ignoring 3.5 rules regarding alignment and turning undead for purposes of telling a good story, is my guess. He's modified the rules before to tell his story his way. Most DM's do, in my experience.

Possibility: Hilgya feels honor-bound to kill Durkon; it's not really personal, it's just dwarven custom that she is choosing to follow (since she's obviously willing to break others).

Remember, nothing - NOTHING - required her to return to dwarven lands after exiting Durukon's dungeon. Just because she's no longer in the Linear Guild and is no longer with Durkon doesn't mean she has to go home. I'd bet that she could have gotten a job as the healbot for the Greysky thieves' guild, for example.

Well, nothing except dramatic entrances.

But anyway, she may not be as willing to violate societal norms as she once was; and, perhaps having lost her husband due to carrying another man's child, is now expected to kill her former lover.

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-11-28, 06:25 PM

I’m very eager to learn more about what Hilgya has been up to these past couple of years. I also wonder if she knows about Durkon’s vampirization, but not Hel’s plan, she’s not surprised he’s not with the Order.

ETA: Also, I wouldn’t mind seeing confirmation for why Hilgya was able to Turn Undead. Hopefully we’ll see why further down the line.

Velaryon

2017-11-28, 06:28 PM

Great strip, though V's punchline at the end, while true, is a bit weak for a strip-ender. This seems like the kind of strip where the next one usually follows quickly, so here's hoping 1107 is not too far off.

Ron Miel

2017-11-28, 06:34 PM

OG LG indeed!

I can't work out what OG means.

Original .... something?

Edit - Never mind. I see it's already been answered. Original group.

RabidEel

2017-11-28, 06:35 PM

In other news, we need to name this baby. I propose Lokor Fireshield, after Loki and Thor and Durkon and Hilgya's last names.

I never said I was good at naming things.

I've been mentally calling it the Tykon.

nocoolnamejim

2017-11-28, 06:36 PM

I think she already has tried sending to Durkon many times previously. Only for him to ignore them. Thus the title, Answering the Call might also be referring to the fact that someone (Loki) finally answered.

I would consider this to be somewhat unlikely given Durkon's personality and alignment.

(More the former than the latter.)

Perhaps it'll be revealed in future strips that she did try and get in touch with Durkon to let him know about things and in which case, additional evidence would change my viewpoint, but as it stands now I don't think Durkon's got any real fault or that Hilgya has any real rational motivation to want Durkon dead for alleged child abandonment.

It's not exactly customary for the guy to make several calls a couple of weeks after after a breakup to see if she's pregnant. If for no other reason than that would be very awkward for both sides and probably an unpleasant reminder in this particular case where the guy broke up with the girl.

Ex-Boyfriend who dumped you calling you up for the third time in the last six weeks: "Hey, it's been another week since I last called. Have you checked again to make absolutely sure you're not preggo and I'm free and clear?"

I know I'm being a touch glib here. But this is probably especially true in-universe for a race (dwarves) who aren't exactly known to be exceptionally fertile.

Essentially. if an unforeseen complication of this sort occurs it's basically the woman's job in this situation to reach out and let the guy know that there are some issues that the two need to work though and agree on.

RicB76

2017-11-28, 06:37 PM

^^ Gangster but in this case, guild.

Feel like the baby is going to be instrumental in Durkons fight Vs Durkulas mental chains.

Dragolord

2017-11-28, 06:37 PM

I can't work out what OG means.

Original .... something?

Gangster. American slang is strange, sometimes.

Ornithologist

2017-11-28, 06:38 PM

OG = Old Guard or something similar in different groups, its come up before in thread.

I like Tykon, its convienent for now.

I am super excited for this next chunk of plot!

nocoolnamejim

2017-11-28, 06:39 PM

And reveal that she's looking for him?

This is the same chick who kept feeding her loving husband poison. She may not be all there.

I'm a bit hazy since this was very early on in the comics. If this actually happened it definitely changes things a bit.

Stiletto

2017-11-28, 06:40 PM

My prediction:

Hilgya gave birth to Durkon's baby and it took a while for her husband and his clan to figure out the baby wasn't Hilgya's husband. They kicked her out. Hilgya wants to make Durkon pay for doing this to her, so she has been trying to find Durkon using what spells she had at her disposal, but Durkon has been a vampire since she began trying to find him; she is not aware of Durkon becoming Greg.

Loki is not happy with the Godsmoot situation and now wants to help the Order but is not allowed by the rules of the Godsmoot. Fortunately, he has Hilgya wanting to know where the father of her child is (Durkon) which, in his mind, is totally different than going around the rules of the Godsmoot! He knows that the Order could use some powerful Cleric help, so Loki has answered Hilgya's prayers to tell her where Durkon is just in time for her to meet up with the Order.

Or, it could be total coincidence.

ManuelSacha

2017-11-28, 06:42 PM

I've always heard OG used as Original Generation.
I guess it might have meant Original Gangster when this term was created, but Original Generation is what everybody means when they use it, nowadays, usually. :smallconfused:

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 06:44 PM

My prediction:

Hilgya gave birth to Durkon's baby and it took a while for her husband and his clan to figure out the baby wasn't Hilgya's husband. They kicked her out. Hilgya wants to make Durkon pay for doing this to her, so she has been trying to find Durkon using what spells she had at her disposal, but Durkon has been a vampire since she began trying to find him; she is not aware of Durkon becoming Greg.
Why would she be back in Dwarven Lands whose customs she hates to a husband she despises though ? She probably just came back here during the night with a teleport scroll or something.

Loki is not happy with the Godsmoot situation and now wants to help the Order but is not allowed by the rules of the Godsmoot. Fortunately, he has Hilgya wanting to know where the father of her child is (Durkon) which, in his mind, is totally different than going around the rules of the Godsmoot! He knows that the Order could use some powerful Cleric help, so Loki has answered Hilgya's prayers to tell her where Durkon is just in time for her to meet up with the Order.

Or, it could be total coincidence.
So, basically what Roy and Haley just said ?

nocoolnamejim

2017-11-28, 06:45 PM

Re: OG

Most common translation I've seen in the real world is "Original Gangster".

But that doesn't necessarily mean that's the case in OotSville.

But the precise translation isn't particularly important since the general meaning is clear.

The MunchKING

2017-11-28, 06:46 PM

Well we know that Loki at least can give Sending, the Cleric of Loki in Greysky was the one who cast Sending for Haley.

Well I wasn't saying he COULDN'T give sending, it's on the Cleric list after all. I'm saying if he wanted to keep her wound up about this, so didn't want her to cast Sending to Durkon, everytime she prayed for Sending He's like "Nope You're getting an extra Cure Critical Wounds instead. Trust me!"

Aww... baby wants the helmet. Smart baby, always wear a helmet in combat situations.

Bah, Helmets aren't even part of the armor in D&D so you can get that all important headslot item in. :D

Anarion

2017-11-28, 06:49 PM

OG LG is pretty amazing as a line from Elan. As is the discussion about the child. One wonders if Hilgya even knows that Durkon is a vampire at this point.

nocoolnamejim

2017-11-28, 06:55 PM

How long is the typical Dwarven pregnancy in world?

We've kind of been assuming that it's the same nine months as a human pregnancy.

But if you assume that it's somewhat longer, it's entirely possible that Hilgya realized she was pregnant and/or gave birth after Durkon had already kicked the bucket.

So it IS possible that she has tried sending to Durkon, only Durkon's no longer receiving calls due to being...well...dead and having his body being worn like a cheap suit by the vampire soul.

I don't think it's likely that Durkon the LG cleric would not pick up the phone if an ex was calling him after a reasonable amount of time. But Greg sure wouldn't bother answering.

The MunchKING

2017-11-28, 06:58 PM

But if you assume that it's somewhat longer, it's entirely possible that Hilgya realized she was pregnant and/or gave birth after Durkon had already kicked the bucket.

That baby is pretty big for being 2 weeks old...

Dorath

2017-11-28, 07:00 PM

I was thinking he meant contraception of some kind.

Neither of them had Protection memorized that day.

nocoolnamejim

2017-11-28, 07:01 PM

That baby is pretty big for being 2 weeks old...

You could well be right.

But how big is a typical dwarven baby? And does it just look big because the mother is pretty small herself?

Edit: Meaning no offense to Giant, but the proportions of this comic haven't always necessarily been realistic (by design probably). Look at those huge heads.

Yendor

2017-11-28, 07:10 PM

You know, I'm not 100% convinced that it's Hilgya's baby.

Keltest

2017-11-28, 07:17 PM

You know, I'm not 100% convinced that it's Hilgya's baby.

How on earth would Hilgya end up saddled with a baby that she didn't give birth to?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 07:19 PM

How on earth would Hilgya end up saddled with a baby that she didn't give birth to?

Who she calls sweetie and refers to herself as mommy.

GW

hroþila

2017-11-28, 07:33 PM

She had his child. As someone who long argued that Hilgya wouldn't come back because being obsessed over a one-night stand would be bad characterization, the equation completely changes when Durkon isn't just a fling, but the father of her child.
It depends on how exactly it goes down and what exactly her reasons are, of course, but I dunno. What would she be seeking revenge for? Ruining her life? Granted, we barely know Hilgya, but I don't think that's how she'd see the whole situation, or at least I hope that's not how she sees it.

How on earth would Hilgya end up saddled with a baby that she didn't give birth to?

Who she calls sweetie and refers to herself as mommy.

GW
You guys never got the talk about the birds, the bees and the kidnappers?

Themrys

2017-11-28, 07:37 PM

I'm sure she's here for revenge at this point.

Which is funny, because I'm sure if she were to ask Durkon to help raise the baby he would, Cause duty.

That depends on what laws the dwarven patriarchy operates on.

Germany, for example, to my knowledge still has the law that a child born to a married woman is considered her husband's child by default. Nowadays, the genetic father might be able to claim rights by doing a gene test, but in case of Hilgyasson, I rather doubt that paternity tests are a thing, so Durkon might be able, completely in accord with his culture, tell her that it is her husband's duty to raise the kid.

Who knows, perhaps they have customs according to which her husband would have been legally entitled to kill the child, and by letting it live he saddled himself with the responsibility to care for it.

Just speculation.

Keltest

2017-11-28, 07:39 PM

You guys never got the talk about the birds, the bees and the kidnappers?

Mentally replace the word "how" in my post with "why" then. I refuse to believe that Hilgya would deliberately inflict a small child upon herself unless she actually gave birth to it.

Themrys

2017-11-28, 07:43 PM

How on earth would Hilgya end up saddled with a baby that she didn't give birth to?

Easily. She has a large clan, it is totally possible her nephew was orphaned and she was, for some reason, the only person who could take him.

Inkyrius also calls their adopted children "sweetie" if memory serves, and the only reason s/he doesn't call her/himself "mommy" or "daddy" would be because of the ambigious sex thing. "Parenty" just hasn't the same ring to it.

Yes, Hilgya seems to be a free spirit who doesn't want to be burdened with responsibilities, but she was attracted to Durkon. He is never described as particularly handsome, so we can assume she was drawn to his personality in some way. Clearly, there's a part of her that sees a certain appeal in all the things that Durkon embodies. Though probably not his hypocrisy.

Since the characters in OotS are three-dimensional and not just stereotypes that have only one personality trait, it is totally plausible that Hilgya would have decided to take care of a helpless infant and grown fond enough of it to call herself "mommy".

However, this is a webcomic. It is much more likely this is the result of Durkon's extramarital indiscretion than just some random baby she ended up adopting.

Rule of drama.

hroþila

2017-11-28, 07:47 PM

Mentally replace the word "how" in my post with "why" then. I refuse to believe that Hilgya would deliberately inflict a small child upon herself unless she actually gave birth to it.
Nah, 'twas only a joke - the idea that Hilgya kidnapped someone's baby, who just happens to look exactly like Durkon, is too out there.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 07:50 PM

That depends on what laws the dwarven patriarchy operates on.

Your assumption that it is a patriarchy at all is unwarranted.

GW

Themrys

2017-11-28, 07:51 PM

Your assumption that it is a patriarchy at all is unwarranted.

GW

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

At least part of dwarven society is a patriarchy.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 07:55 PM

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

At least part of dwarven society is a patriarchy.
Do you know any society that considers trees their hereditary ennemy ?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 07:57 PM

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

Yes, I do: the dwarven OotS society, which displays no inequality between the sexes and nevertheless has arranged marriages. "Arranged marriage" is not a necessary part of, nor exclusively of, a patriarchy

As to RL, the Hopi culture was (is) strongly matriarchal, and powerful families engaged in arranged marriages (http://www.everyculture.com/North-America/Hopi-Marriage-and-Family.html), therefore neatly demolishing your entire argument that one is a requirement for the other.

Arranged marriages are a common thread across all cultures and times as a way to control inter-family politics. Yes, patriarchies have arranged marriages, but so do all other historical societies that you care to look into.

GW

Mandor

2017-11-28, 08:00 PM

Ah yes, V. Good to see that you remembered the lesson about Probability sneaking off to a back alley to service Drama as a copper piece harlot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

schmunzel

2017-11-28, 08:01 PM

I'm a bit hazy since this was very early on in the comics. If this actually happened it definitely changes things a bit.

There was a 56 page thread that came to the conclusion that we are not particular sure about that :P

sch

Ruck

2017-11-28, 08:14 PM

Obsolete Goons. Not a nice thing to say about Hilgya, but...sometimes Elan's like that.

Is that what Hired Goons become after they've been Fired Goons?

zimmerwald1915

2017-11-28, 08:16 PM

Again: SoD talks about Evil gods defending the Dark One, and shows Loki defending the Dark One. At this point, I would say it is more likely that Loki is an Evil god who hates undead and therefore grants turning rather than rebuking. Lots of gods, even Evil ones, are known to have issues with undead and thus do not allow their clergy to command them - and I can easily imagine that Hel might have had a bit of a hand in ensuring she was the only undead deity of the northern pantheon.

Grey Wolf
The only deity of undeath in the pantheon? Perhaps. But not the only one that grants rebuking; the high priest of Fenrir, God of Monsters, bolsters undead here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html). This page is also useful for showing what rebuking looks like in this book 's art style.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 08:21 PM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 08:29 PM

The only deity of undeath in the pantheon? Perhaps. But not the only one that grants rebuking; the high priest of Fenrir, God of Monsters, bolsters undead here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html). This page is also useful for showing what rebuking looks like in this book 's art style.

Fair enough. So that leaves "Loki dislikes undead enough his priests Turn", which is admittedly not terribly plausible. Is there actual examples of such kind of behavior in the RAW gods?

GW

zimmerwald1915

2017-11-28, 08:29 PM

Well they are siblings after all.
Isn't everybody? Or related, at least?

grandpheonix

2017-11-28, 08:30 PM

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha OH varsuvious you fool! XD!

Wysper

2017-11-28, 08:30 PM

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?

Also, she clearly says in the last panel of the previous strip she is here to help Murder Durkon.
Though I'm curious why Loki wouldn't have answered the prayer previously.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 08:31 PM

Isn't everybody? Or related, at least?

Not in OotS: many different lineages were created ex nihilo at world creation a few millennia back. That's why only a fifth of all black dragons died, instead of all of them.

Though I'm curious why Loki wouldn't have answered the prayer previously.
Before he didn't have a vote to protect. Without Greg's actions, Loki likely wins the vote.

GW

The MunchKING

2017-11-28, 08:32 PM

How on earth would Hilgya end up saddled with a baby that she didn't give birth to?

"Ack I'm dying, Hilgya my best friend in the whole world, please do me one favor; look after my baby for me!" *Dies*

Who she calls sweetie and refers to herself as mommy.

GW

To be fair, adopted mom do that too...

Fair enough. So that leaves "Loki dislikes undead enough his priests Turn", which is admittedly not terribly plausible. Is there actual examples of such kind of behavior in the RAW gods?

GW

Esp. considering he liked the undead enough to have a half-undead baby girl. :D

But I think in RAW there was one Neutral God who was like "All my priests turn Undead", but I can't remember who. I'd have to look it up.

zimmerwald1915

2017-11-28, 08:32 PM

Not in OotS: many different lineages were created ex nihilo at world creation a few millennia back. That's why only a fifth of all black dragons died, instead of all of them.

GW
I was debating putting "in the pantheon" in. Went with snappy over clear, and it bit me, just like it always does.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 08:37 PM

Isn't everybody? Or related, at least?
Well in the original mythology, Loki and the children he had with his mistress : Hel, Fenrir the Wolf and Jörmugandr are giants not Ases like the rest of the gods.
I am pretty sure Freyr and Freya are elfs too.
I don't know Norse mythology as well as greek but I think there is considerably less incest going on in the former than in the latter.

Of course the Giant said he did not follow the actual mythology but if Hel is still Loki's daughter there isno reason to assume Fenrir is not his son.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 08:52 PM

To be fair, adopted mom do that too...
If Hilgya adopted the baby, the baby is hers. I don't make a distinction between biological and adoptive mothers.

Esp. considering he liked the undead enough to have a half-undead baby girl. :D
Possibly, whatever undead monstrosity got Loki pregnant (and yes, I'm assuming Loki's the person that gestated Hel, because Loki will be Loki) left some psychological scars that justifies his "from now on, we say no to undead"?

(Yeah, yeah, straws are being grasped. I'm aware)

Grey Wolf

The MunchKING

2017-11-28, 08:56 PM

If Hilgya adopted the baby, the baby is hers. I don't make a distinction between biological and adoptive mothers.

Well, fair enough, but you replied to a quote about how she could have had one she didn't give birth to, so I was going on with that.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-28, 09:01 PM

Well, fair enough, but you replied to a quote about how she could have had one she didn't give birth to, so I was going on with that.

Fair enough; I was actually responding to the original statement (that made no such specification), and quoted Keltest only as an indication I was aware he had posted on the topic as well, but in hindsight there is no way anyone else could have known that.

GW

Knick

2017-11-28, 09:26 PM

You can tell she's a true dwarf: she wears a baby as armour.

SavageWombat

2017-11-28, 09:30 PM

You know, if you're determined to come up with a way for a CE cleric to turn undead, there's always the amulet vs. undead. But I'm not 100% that it ever showed up in 3e.

Gnoman

2017-11-28, 09:31 PM

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?

That's not really a parallel. Roy has been getting in Xykon's way regularly, and smashed Xykon pretty decisively the first time they met. Hilgya was a minor member of the B-villain team in their first apperance, and she's played no role whatsoever since. He has no more reason to remember her than he would to remember that dwarf assassin he ran into.

Goblin_Priest

2017-11-28, 09:52 PM

D&D metaphysics says Loki has to be Neutral or Good for one of his clerics to Turn Undead. As yet, we don't know if the Giant is using that rule or decided to do something different.

Either

1) Loki and Hylgia are both neutral or good, but in-lore suggests that Loki is evil and that she probably is as well.
2) Rich is disregarding that restriction for the Stickverse.
3) Some evil gods have specific rules opposite to the standard, offering turn instead of rebuke.
4) Loki grants some kind of domain that allows the switch.
5) There's some shady (homebrew?) feat that allows the switch

8BitNinja

2017-11-28, 09:53 PM

To be honest, I didn't realize that the baby is Durkon's kid until this panel. It should have been obvious, as he has the same hair and skin tone as Durkon.

Goblin_Priest

2017-11-28, 09:56 PM

GreatWyrmGold

2017-11-28, 10:05 PM

"Not now, Mommy's making a dramatic entrance"
Priceless!
:biggrin:
And here I thought only Elan's family would care about that.

Maybe he ain't Chaotic Evil, but he is Neutral Evil...
I'm pretty sure Loki would be insulted by someone saying he's more evil than he is chaotic.

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?
To be fair, Hilgya never fought Roy or declared that she was there to avenge her father or said anything to him. I just counted--before 1105, there were six strips where they were both onpanel, and only a couple more where they were in the same room. Elan was in the same room as Hilgya for much longer, and...commented on her actions.
How, Hilgya didn't do much when she was in the LG.

I was just about to comment about Haley saying : '"Ok, guys, here's the the thing:", but then the Giant ninja edited the comic before I logged in to post.

In other news, we need to name this baby. I propose Lokor Fireshield, after Loki and Thor and Durkon and Hilgya's last names.

I never said I was good at naming things.
Clearly. "Thoki" sounds (slightly) less silly.
But, um, Hilgya probably already named the kid...

I've been mentally calling it the Tykon.
I don't know who that name makes me think of (this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychon) is too obscure and non-threatening to be it), but that name seems ominous to me.

What part of "Help murder Durkon" is ambiguous?
The tone.

This strip strikes me as a bit odd. Hilgya is peculiarly nonchalant about meeting the order again. Shouldn't she assume that they are still allied with Durkon and would attempt to prevent her from killing him?
Yeah, because the group she was with held together so well.

How does she know their "strategy concerns" discussion doesn't involve subduing her?
Elan said "That's great," not "Um...great." I'm pretty sure she interacted enough with Elan to know that he wasn't the type to eagerly offer to join someone going off to kill his friend, or the kind to try and trick someone into thinking he was. (Certainly not the kind to succeed.)

Why isn't one of her first questions "so where is Durkon, anyways?"
When you see a party of adventurers struggling together against a bunch of vampires and they aren't cursing their cleric's absence, they're probably down one healbot for whatever reason.

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry?Do you know any society that considers trees their hereditary ennemy ?
Sworn enemy, not hereditary enemy. Dwarves don't force people to fight trees.
But more to the point, patriarchies forcing women into marriage exist IRL. Societies which hate trees do not.

Chris Wiz

2017-11-28, 10:13 PM

It feels like an euphemism for sex, given that it is Belkar. In any case, I've never heard of it before, if it is indeed slang.

"Slipping one past the goalie" is a hockey metaphor for getting a woman pregnant.

Shining Wrath

2017-11-28, 10:17 PM

That depends on what laws the dwarven patriarchy operates on.

Germany, for example, to my knowledge still has the law that a child born to a married woman is considered her husband's child by default. Nowadays, the genetic father might be able to claim rights by doing a gene test, but in case of Hilgyasson, I rather doubt that paternity tests are a thing, so Durkon might be able, completely in accord with his culture, tell her that it is her husband's duty to raise the kid.

Who knows, perhaps they have customs according to which her husband would have been legally entitled to kill the child, and by letting it live he saddled himself with the responsibility to care for it.

Just speculation.

Look - there's no requirement for a society to be patriarchal in order to have arranged marriages, and we see many instances in-strip of women having authority over men (starting with Durkon's own parents).

I name the baby Durkspawn.

Toper

2017-11-28, 10:23 PM

Such a great comic! I love how polite Elan is - remembering Hilgya's name but not stepping on her upcoming dramatic reveal. And every exchange is a nice illustration of the Order's dynamics, and the last panel is just the best.

Fyraltari

2017-11-28, 10:31 PM

Not sure I'd equate them, but I remember somebody called it, that Roy would be the one not to remember her.
Yeah because early on he really did not care about NPC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html). At all. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)

And here I thought only Elan's family would care about that.
Everybody cares about that. Elan & Co are just extremes.

I'm pretty sure Loki would be insulted by someone saying he's more evil than he is chaotic.
Seconded.

Sworn enemy, not hereditary enemy. Dwarves don't force people to fight trees.

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

At least part of dwarven society is a patriarchy.
Do you know any society that considers trees their hereditary ennemy ?
But more to the point, patriarchies forcing women into marriage exist IRL. Societies which hate trees do not.
[/spoiler]
A sworn ennemy that is passed down from generation to generation is hereditary, this is not thehip new trend of Dwarven culture.
Themrys used a rethorical question to state that they is no example of a non-patriarcal society using arranged marriage, implying that the exiqtence of this custom meant the Dwarves lived under a patriarchy.
I used a rethorical question to state that there is no example of a society hating trees either, implying that their attempt to slap a real-life correlation to a fictionnalsociety of non-humans living in a comedy world was nonsensical.

Anyway according to Grey Wolf (haven't checked yet but I 'm going to trust him for now) the correlation doesn't even exist in real life making Themrys' absurd conviction of the Dwarven Land operating under state-supported misogyny look even more shaky :

As to RL, the Hopi culture was (is) strongly matriarchal, and powerful families engaged in arranged marriages (http://www.everyculture.com/North-America/Hopi-Marriage-and-Family.html), therefore neatly demolishing your entire argument that one is a requirement for the other.

Arranged marriages are a common thread across all cultures and times as a way to control inter-family politics. Yes, patriarchies have arranged marriages, but so do all other historical societies that you care to look into.

I might add that arranged marriages are still a fringe phenomenon in societies that frown upon them.

Draconi Redfir

2017-11-28, 10:39 PM

i don't understand everyone's confusion about turning / bolstering undead.

consider for a moment: All clerics can do both. one is maybe just more effective then the other.

other possibility: obscure feat allows it.

i mean it's not like the comic has been 100% consistent with RAW anyways right? They break or bend the rules all the time, because it's not a game, it's a world that just has game-rules.

Emanick

2017-11-28, 11:10 PM

I don't know who that name makes me think of (this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychon) is too obscure and non-threatening to be it), but that name seems ominous to me.

Typhon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon), maybe? "The most deadly creature in Greek mythology" (emphasis mine) is not a pretty title to have.

Lethologica

2017-11-28, 11:14 PM

I don't know who that name makes me think of (this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychon) is too obscure and non-threatening to be it), but that name seems ominous to me.
Try swapping the T with a consonant later in the alphabet.

r2d2go

2017-11-29, 12:27 AM

It looks like people are still discussing how Hilgya could Turn despite having an evil deity, so I'll mention: There is at least one prestige class that grants Turning that Hilgya could mechanically qualify for (though perhaps uncharacteristically), Master of Radiance (requires nonevil, some skills, Daylight as a divine spell). Though the Turning from that would be weak, there are several prestige classes that advance Turning once you have it without requiring you to be Evil, so it's not unreasonable to have Turned those relatively weak vampires. This also helps explain why they weren't outright destroyed, if Hilgya is relatively close to the OotS's level.

I'd still say it's more likely that this is just a case of not following the exact rules of 3.5, but I'd also argue that Hilgya doesn't have to be evil even if that is the case (after all, I'm sure many of you have seen the chaotic neutral murder-hobo adventurer who does whatever they want, and ends up just shy of the deep end by being a decent person most of the time and eventually saving the world)

Forikroder

2017-11-29, 12:37 AM

Rogar Demonblud

2017-11-29, 12:42 AM

a1chemi

2017-11-29, 12:47 AM

durkon is LG and thor is CG

also couldnt she be neutral and choose to turn instead of rebuke?

Durkon being lawful while his deity is chaotic is funny and ironic (if Thor isn't neutral or lawful and just played dumb for laughs).

I don't expect a similar situation with Loki and Hilgya. If anything Loki is chaotic neutral because plot demands it, due to his role in the vote.

Clerics can only choose to turn if their deity is also neutral.

Jasdoif

2017-11-29, 12:56 AM

Not if Loki's Evil. Evil gods only have Rebuke, as do evil clerics. Good gods only have Turning, as do good clerics. Neutrals allow a choice if the cleric is also Neutral. It's been posted on repeatedly, usually with the caveat that Rich might not be following the letter of the rules for drama.The question I'd ask on the not following the previously stated turn/rebuke tendencies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) scenario, is what would be the purpose of writing it to be turning? Using a non-aligned cleric spell (such as undeath to death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm)) wouldn't need any sort of exception at all to avoid implying that Hilgya and Loki are non-evil....But making such an implication could easily be why turning was used.

The_Weirdo

2017-11-29, 01:02 AM

Yes, Hilgya seems to be a free spirit who doesn't want to be burdened with responsibilities, but she was attracted to Durkon. He is never described as particularly handsome, so we can assume she was drawn to his personality in some way. Clearly, there's a part of her that sees a certain appeal in all the things that Durkon embodies. Though probably not his hypocrisy.

There aren't many dwarves in human lands. It might be a case of "any port in a storm"?

georgie_leech

2017-11-29, 01:14 AM

The question I'd ask on the not following the previously stated turn/rebuke tendencies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) scenario, is what would be the purpose of writing it to be turning? Using a non-aligned cleric spell (such as undeath to death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm)) wouldn't need any sort of exception at all to avoid implying that Hilgya and Loki are non-evil....But making such an implication could easily be why turning was used.

Turn Undead has been associated by clerics before in a way that Undeath to Death hasn't. So it's a way of communicating helpful Cleric in a way that a spell wouldn't. Sure, we as forumers might know that that spell exists, but a casual reader would have no reason to expect such a spell.

Come to think of it, has it actually been established that the Gods Turn or Rebuke based on Alignment? Or that Clerics must be within one step of their city's alignment? I can only remember it being established that Evil Clerics channel Negative Energy while Good ones channel Positive.

Jasdoif

2017-11-29, 01:21 AM

Turn Undead has been associated by clerics before in a way that Undeath to Death hasn't. So it's a way of communicating helpful Cleric in a way that a spell wouldn't. Sure, we as forumers might know that that spell exists, but a casual reader would have no reason to expect such a spell.I imagine Hilgya having been a cleric, communicated "Cleric" pretty well on its own.

The MunchKING

2017-11-29, 01:29 AM

Try swapping the T with a consonant later in the alphabet.

X "Z"s are for Pussays. :P

Snails

2017-11-29, 01:43 AM

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

At least part of dwarven society is a patriarchy.

"Part" actually means nothing, because it is not uncommon for patriarchal and matriarchal political structures to exist side-by-side, and that has probably been the case for the last few million years of hominid history on this planet. So this sounds a bit too much like a ready made excuse to move the goalposts.

The sample size of matriarchal societies on this planet at this moment in history is rather small. Michael Palin in his travel documentaries found two. One is a small village in the Himalyas near China. The other is the Wahdahbi/Tuareg of sub-Saharan Africa.

The Wadahbi do force girls of appropriate age to pick a man. But she picks the man. And she ultimately decides whether to make it permanent. Clearly there are some social pressures to conform and marry, but the details are hard to discern without being an anthropologist with direct research experience.

BTW, the Wahdahbi/Tuareg of ancient times were definitely matriarchal and explicitly named women as the most wise members of the tribe. Furthermore, women were not required to cover themselves, but the men were. The nominal reason was that women, as holders of the sacred power to create life, inherently possessed the magical power to withstand evil spirits, while the "weaker" sex (men) could not.

The coming of Islam has shifted the culture, but many of the matriarchal traditions survive. Honestly, whether the society is effectively a patriarchy or effectively a matriarchy depends on the context of the matter on hand.

Jethro_Thrull

2017-11-29, 03:15 AM

I'm anticipating a "that son of a b****, I'll raise him and kill him myself" sort of scenario.

M.A.D

2017-11-29, 03:57 AM

Kardwill

2017-11-29, 04:13 AM

She came here knowing that someone is here looking to kill Durkon. She finds the Order, and Durkon isn't with them. So maybe she assumes Durkon betrayed them just like he betrayed her. Or Loki actually told her "Go there, you'll find the Order of the Stick, trying to kill Durkon"
Yeah, she wasn't surprised at all to find the order here without Durkon, and is not trying to hide her intentions from them, so she might have got some information that they were in conflict.

gmatht

2017-11-29, 04:27 AM

I bet the reason why Hilgya is able to cast Turn Undead is the same reason why the clerics of the Dark One can cast Turn Undead too [#459], which is to say, irrelevant to the story.

Sure, but that was explicitly called "Turn undead (sort of)", and was turning some kind of holy paladin spirit rather than unholy vampires.

Kardwill

2017-11-29, 04:27 AM

(if Thor isn't neutral or lawful and just played dumb for laughs).

We see him acting on a whim, losing interest fast, getting wasted on a regular basis, trying to break established rules, weaseling out of the consequences of an arrangement to save his followers' soul (the bet), and especially try to deny his responsibility in the consequences of his own actions (the fertility godess debacle). None of those scream "lawful" to me. At best, a case could be made for "neutral good, with chaotic tendencies" :/

hroþila

2017-11-29, 06:40 AM

Sure, but that was explicitly called "Turn undead (sort of)", and was turning some kind of holy paladin spirit rather than unholy vampires.
Yup. In fact, Redcloak and Jirix were explicitly discussing how they were going to use their Rebuke Undead ability to produce effects equivalent to those of a Turn Undead ability.

Kish

2017-11-29, 07:17 AM

cast Turn Undead
Turn Undead is not a spell.

factotum

2017-11-29, 07:19 AM

If anything Loki is chaotic neutral because plot demands it, due to his role in the vote.

How does that follow? Are you suggesting that only Evil gods would vote to destroy the world, so the fact Loki didn't vote that way means he's not Evil? Which perforce also means that Heimdall, Tyr and Sunna are all Evil, which doesn't seem likely in the slightest?

pendell

2017-11-29, 07:58 AM

I can't believe I'm doing this but. ..

Urban dictionary definitions for OG (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=OG&utm_source=search-action)

TOP DEFINITION
OG
OG stands for "Original"

Short for "Original username". Any cool name on social media is considered an OG.
Wow, that Instagram username is so OG.

@Mitchell is the king of OGs

And the next definition is like to it:

OGcollege
Original gangster
someone who has been around, old school gangster

Bonus points for definition #4:

og
Olive Garden waiters can be intimidating and judgemental. The gangster community just took it over and used it as "original gangster" retro-actively.
Here comes an OG! Hide the breadsticks!
#original#gangster#olive#garden#breadsticks
by ogwaiter October 20, 2010

Yeaahhh, I don't think so .

At any rate, the overall meaning is clear: Hilgya is from the first iteration of the Linear Guild back in Dorukan's dungeon.

I think Rich meant "original" when he used OG but "Original Gangster" would still fit the same rough idea. Not really important.

But I did love that first line: "Not now , sweetie. Mommy's making a dramatic entrance". That made me chuckle :smallbiggrin:.

We know that she's a cleric of Loki, and we believe Loki is chaotic evil.

So I'm going to once again change my stance with the following theory: Hilgya is CE. The reason she turns undead rather than rebuking them is because Hel is one of the few in the northern pantheon who gives command/rebuke undead. Most of the other gods, not having the domain of death in their portfolio, turn or destroy rather than rebuke/command undead. It's a specific exception for their pantheon and their setting, overriding the default SRD rules.

That's my theory, absent additional information.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2017-11-29, 08:04 AM

HarbingerIV

2017-11-29, 08:08 AM

It might have been mentioned in an earlier post or thread, but I just want to take a moment and appreciate one of the last things Durkon said to Hilgya, before they parted ways.

H: "But i think i love you"

D: "my mum thaut me tha' i should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again."

Way to do an 1000 panel ahead of time foreshadowing Rich. Well written.

Diashi

2017-11-29, 08:11 AM

It's almost like Rich left out the last panel of the comic where the whole Order turns and stares out through the fourth wall at us for making the same assumption.

pendell

2017-11-29, 08:21 AM

I don't think Rich feels particularly bound to follow the turn/rebuke rules, but I do want to point out that "there are one or two death gods and multiple evil gods whose portfolio has nothing to do with death, who nonetheless rebuke rather than turning" is every D&D campaign world I ever heard of; "evil god" not equalling "death god" is not something unusual about the OotS setting.

Fair enough. Nonetheless, at this point I'm willing to believe it's a house rule or setting-specific rule, as opposed to an alignment shift, as the reason for Hilgya using Turn rather than Rebuke.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

kaoskonfety

2017-11-29, 09:01 AM

And of course V is correct - as obvious as it is to us, this is a massive assumption only made reasonable because Durkon is A PROTAGONIST! And therefor this complication is almost certainly his concern. Good times.

Basement Cat

2017-11-29, 09:19 AM

I'm a bit confused about the "Loki finding a loophole." thing.

Maybe the OotS is mistaken or something because didn't Hel's ally what's-his-name blatantly intervene by sending his giants to attack the Order?

Why should Gods'-Team "Destroy World" be free to take steps to prevent the Order from interfering with Durkula's mission to rig the Dwarven vote but Gods'-Team "Save World" is obligated to sit on it's hands?

OG: Original Gang, Original Goons, Obligatory Grinders...

GreatWyrmGold

2017-11-29, 09:33 AM

Typhon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon), maybe? "The most deadly creature in Greek mythology" (emphasis mine) is not a pretty title to have.
That sounds about right.

Try swapping the T with a consonant later in the alphabet.
That sounds about vague.

Durkon being lawful while his deity is chaotic is funny and ironic (if Thor isn't neutral or lawful and just played dumb for laughs).
It wouldn't surprise me. He acts like a dwarf (or at least a dwarven caricature granted extreme power), and dwarves are generally LG.

It might have been mentioned in an earlier post or thread, but I just want to take a moment and appreciate one of the last things Durkon said to Hilgya, before they parted ways.
H: "But i think i love you"
D: "my mum thaut me tha' i should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again."
Way to do an 1000 panel ahead of time foreshadowing Rich. Well written.
That far back, it's hard to tell if it's foreshadowing or Rich taking inspiration from a throwaway line before the big arc was planned and building off of it. Or establishing a bit of Durkon's character that didn't get focus for almost a thousand strips.
It's impressive either way, just different kinds of impressive.

I'm a bit confused about the "Loki finding a loophole." thing.
Maybe the OotS is mistaken or something because didn't Hel's ally what's-his-name blatantly intervene by sending his giants to attack the Order?
Why should Gods'-Team "Destroy World" be free to take steps to prevent the Order from interfering with Durkula's mission to rig the Dwarven vote but Gods'-Team "Save World" is obligated to sit on it's hands?
Three possibilities.
1. The steps Team Destroy World took were also indirect enough to qualify as loopholes. E.g, Hel didn't order those giants to attack the Mechane--she just had Thrym let them know about an airship full of high-level magic items and other treasures.
2. The Order isn't protected the same way that gods' high priests are. Which makes sense, since the only priest among them (before they reached Thor's place)
3. Unlikely, but there is an established literary tradition of Good being the only ones who care about the Balance Between Good and Evil or whatever agreements are put in place. One example which springs to mind is Dragonlance, where Takhesis awoke her dragons without warning (against the rules) and had them steal good dragon eggs, forcing them to stay put while she did her thing.

hroþila

2017-11-29, 09:45 AM

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 10:22 AM

But Durkon is no longer the High Priest of Hel, officially. I honestly don't see how Loki would be breaching the rules by sending Hilgya explicitly to stop Durkon, unless Hel was also in the wrong by sending Durkon to rig the vote. There might be a way to reconcile all these things, but right now the only one I can think of that makes sense is that the Order is a bit confused about what the gods can and cannot do.

Since the gods can't see or hear what happened in the Godsmoot they may not know Darkon is not high priest anymore.
Or maybe the rules forbid any god to order an attack on the clergy of another during the moot (it is supposed to be neutral/peace talk after all).

Just find the most frustating way to rule-lawyer it you can think of.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-11-29, 10:29 AM

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 10:35 AM

Just during the moot? I'd expect there would be rules about directly screwing with other gods' priests as a general rule. That, or Loki would burn a couple of Thor's priests whenever he got too stubborn.

Maybe but they have to be laxer then, Malack and Durkon went at it and nobody thought twice about it. It is likely that these things equal each other out, Thor and Loki's guys avoid each other turf and the death toll does not raise too much. If two Clerics fight from time to time one god gains a more powerful servant and the other a soul so nobody is too pissed about it.

hroþila

2017-11-29, 10:35 AM

Since the gods can't see or hear what happened in the Godsmoot they may not know Darkon is not high priest anymore.
Or maybe the rules forbid any god to order an attack on the clergy of another during the moot (it is supposed to be neutral/peace talk after all).

Just find the most frustating way to rule-lawyer it you can think of.
I don't see it. With the first possibility, Durkon can't be the High Priest anymore because High Priests aren't allowed to leave the Godsmoot; therefore, sending someone after him to dwarven lands presupposes he's not the High Priest. As for the second possibility, there was already a brawl where plenty of Hel's clerics were killed in the middle of the Godsmoot.

I'm sure a solution can be found. I'm just struggling at the moment.

Just during the moot? I'd expect there would be rules about directly screwing with other gods' priests as a general rule. That, or Loki would burn a couple of Thor's priests whenever he got too stubborn.
There's direct interference, and then there's clerics duking it out. In theory, that's what clerics are for.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 10:41 AM

I don't see it. With the first possibility, Durkon can't be the High Priest anymore because High Priests aren't allowed to leave the Godsmoot; therefore, sending someone after him to dwarven lands presupposes he's not the High Priest. As for the second possibility, there was already a brawl where plenty of Hel's clerics were killed in the middle of the Godsmoot.

I'm sure a solution can be found. I'm just struggling at the moment.

There's direct interference, and then there's clerics duking it out. In theory, that's what clerics are for.

It could be as simple as "A god cannot give information on where to find priests of other gods". Hel did not target the giants towards a priest of other gods, just a random adventuring team. But Loki can't tell any of his followers where to find Hel's priests... but can tell a revengeful follower where to find the target of her revenge. That said target just happens to be co-inhabiting the body of a priest of Hel is just a random wacky coincidence.

Or, because I feel that is too broad a restriction, "a god cannot send hit squads of priests at other gods' priest for a godly reason". If their priests have a reason to request the information the god probably can help, but the gods can't simply volunteer the information and then sick 'em on the competition.

GW

GreatWyrmGold

2017-11-29, 10:46 AM

Maybe but they have to be laxer then, Malack and Durkon went at it and nobody thought twice about it.
There's interfering directly to kill another god's priest, and then there's two priests meeting of their own accord and killing each other. Malack and Durkon fall into the latter category, and Hilgya killing the Cleric Formerly Known as Durkon technically would, too.

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 10:48 AM

Kish

2017-11-29, 10:51 AM

hroþila

2017-11-29, 10:51 AM

It could be as simple as "A god cannot give information on where to find priests of other gods". Hel did not target the giants towards a priest of other gods, just a random adventuring team. But Loki can't tell any of his followers where to find Hel's priests... but can tell a revengeful follower where to find the target of her revenge. That said target just happens to be co-inhabiting the body of a priest of Hel is just a random wacky coincidence.

Or, because I feel that is too broad a restriction, "a god cannot send hit squads of priests at other gods' priest for a godly reason". If their priests have a reason to request the information the god probably can help, but the gods can't simply volunteer the information and then sick 'em on the competition.

GW
Yeah, I guess that would work. Good thinking.

I suspect it's much simpler than that. Loki wants to be credibly able to appear at the next Godsmoot and say "these allegations of my attempting behind-the-scenes vote manipulation are absurd, Sunna, all I did was respond to a prayer for information from someone who was a dedicated priest of mine years before the last Godsmoot." Hel's not thinking of that kind of credibility: she wins here or she's right back to not being able to appear at the next Godsmoot at all (and for Thrym's part, insofar as he was thinking with his head, if any of the gods even bothers to ask why a mere demigod would do anything, he'll only even get called to make a vote if the vote is deadlocked).
But there's no vote manipulation in destroying Durkon. Quite the contrary.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 10:56 AM

I suspect it's much simpler than that. Loki wants to be credibly able to appear at the next Godsmoot and say "these allegations of my attempting behind-the-scenes vote manipulation are absurd, Sunna, all I did was respond to a prayer for information from someone who was a dedicated priest of mine years before the last Godsmoot." Hel's not thinking of that kind of credibility: she wins here or she's right back to not being able to appear at the next Godsmoot at all (and for Thrym's part, insofar as he was thinking with his head, if any of the gods even bothers to ask why a mere demigod would do anything, he'll only even get called to make a vote if the vote is deadlocked).

This is the most likely explanation, but I still think there must be some kind of rule to protect clerics of one religion from being targeted by an opposing god. Otherwise, any itinerant cleric going around feeding the poor might as well have a massive target on their back.

Having clerics is a significant investment for every god: they are given soul power in the hope that they will retain/convert enough followers that the god will have a positive ROI. So any god wanting to weaken an opponent will want to target such clerics, by all allowed means - therefore, I posit those means are quite curtailed.

ETA:

Yeah, I guess that would work. Good thinking.
What does it say about the Internet, that I am always surprised when someone simply agrees with one of my points?

Grey Wolf

Basement Cat

2017-11-29, 11:08 AM

Here's a thought: The loophole they were referring to simply involved the Gods' agreement to keep the Snarl and all things related secret. I'll refer to it as the "Snarl Secrecy Clause".

Thus Thrym sending his giants to attack mortals wasn't anything more than "My god commanded me to kill you" which would be acceptable by the Snarl Secrecy Clause.

Meanwhile Loki wanted Hilgya to get involved but the Snarl Secrecy Clause proscribed him from spilling anything more than Durkon's 'location'. Instead he just told gave her the necessary info knowing/expecting she'd meet up with the OotS and figuring matters would proceed in his favor from there.

P.S. Clerics of different gods fight all the time. Strange that folks here would suggest that clerics of different gods fighting each other was taboo.

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 11:11 AM

This is the most likely explanation, but I still think there must be some kind of rule to protect clerics of one religion from being targeted by an opposing god. Otherwise, any itinerant cleric going around feeding the poor might as well have a massive target on their back.

Having clerics is a significant investment for every god: they are given soul power in the hope that they will retain/convert enough followers that the god will have a positive ROI. So any god wanting to weaken an opponent will want to target such clerics, by all allowed means - therefore, I posit those means are quite curtailed.

ETA:

What does it say about the Internet, that I am always surprised when someone simply agrees with one of my points?

Grey Wolf

It goes both way though : if a god starts systematically targeting another's Cleric the other will respond in kind and in the end they both starve. You don't need rules to see that MAD is a thing you want to avoid.

Thinking of it that maybe why Loki set Hel up like that : So he'd have a (sort of) living example of what happens to god without Clerics to show the others anytime they get angry at him because of his latest oh-so-clever scheme.

http://i.imgur.com/vlRmnBm.png Sure I get it Freyr you are pissed that I tricked you into giving up 1/10th of your soul-energy to me for two years and I guess that, theoritically, you could just have you guys kill off mine for a while to compensate, but think of how far that would take both of us, where we would end up. Is that really what you want ? By the way have you seen my lovely daughter recently ? I can't seem to find her for some reason.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 11:14 AM

P.S. Clerics of different gods fight all the time. Strange that folks here would suggest that clerics of different gods fighting each other was taboo.

Just in case "folks" includes me: I am not saying the rule forbids clerics from fighting each other. I'm saying there is a rule that stops the all-seeing gods from giving explicit information to their clerics on the general topic of "I just saw that a cleric from my rival is out alone and away from help. Quickly, send a squad of assassins to take him down right now. Here is the exact coordinates."

Gods in OotS don't much care what the mortals are up to. But they do care about the gods' actions, even when said actions are through their pawns.

ETA:
It goes both way though : if a god starts systematically targeting another's Cleric the other will respond in kind and in the end they both starve. You don't need rules to see that MAD is a thing you want to avoid.
This is a bunch of morons that managed to create the Snarl over petty disagreements. I think they most definitely need rules to prevent them from MAD.

GW

Shining Wrath

2017-11-29, 11:14 AM

I wonder what, exactly, Loki told Hilgya when he answered her prayer?

Her first words to the party "I was told [presumably by Loki] someone here needed help murdering Durkon Thundershield".
And then "Loki sent me, in answer to my prayers".
And then "I've been praying every night for the location of Thundershield, and last night, Loki finally answered".

Loki told her that if she went to the Temple of Thor that should would meet people who wanted to kill Durkon Thundershield. She was praying at night, which may mean she's evil (clerics typically prepare spells either at night or in the morning, alignment-dependent). And he sent her, rather than just letting her know where he was, although that may be a figure of speech.

It appears that Loki gave her instructions to go to the Temple of Thor and help the people she would meet there kill Durkon. I doubt Loki said "Murder"; that's too direct for him. But I think he told her to go, not just gave her the information that she wanted.

Keltest

2017-11-29, 11:17 AM

Just in case "folks" includes me: I am not saying the rule forbids clerics from fighting each other. I'm saying there is a rule that stops the all-seeing gods from giving explicit information to their clerics on the general topic of "I just saw that a cleric from my rival is out alone and away from help. Quickly, send a squad of assassins to take him down right now. Here is the exact coordinates."

Gods in OotS don't much care what the mortals are up to. But they do care about the gods' actions, even when said actions are through their pawns.

GW

But isn't that still exactly what clerics are for? Theyre supposed to be a medium for the gods to interact and, at times, fight through without actually involving their direct godly strength. If Sunna cant say "ok, Loki is trying to turn off the sun for a week, you guys need to go here and stop him please", whats even the point?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 11:22 AM

But isn't that still exactly what clerics are for? Theyre supposed to be a medium for the gods to interact and, at times, fight through without actually involving their direct godly strength. If Sunna cant say "ok, Loki is trying to turn off the sun for a week, you guys need to go here and stop him please", whats even the point?

No, the clerics are for converting people so they go to the god's domain. The gods explicitly created a bunch of races just to give clerics XP fodder. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember the comic ever stating or implying that the clerics exist mostly to duke it out with one another. If there is a bunch of evil clerics trying to turn off the sun, that's what adventuring teams are for in this world (remind me to tell you about the time a bunch of druids popped out from the potted plant and all that).

Grey Wolf

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 11:23 AM

This is a bunch of morons that managed to create the Snarl over petty disagreements. I think they most definitely need rules to prevent them from MAD.
When I fight with my friends I do not expect it to spawn a murderous abomination, you can't really fault them for not knowing the consequences of something that literally never happened before.

But isn't that still exactly what clerics are for? Theyre supposed to be a medium for the gods to interact and, at times, fight through without actually involving their direct godly strength. If Sunna cant say "ok, Loki is trying to turn off the sun for a week, you guys need to go here and stop him please", whats even the point?

The point is to convert the mortals so that when they die their soul will feed the God.

hroþila

2017-11-29, 11:28 AM

Are we ever told that the clerics are there to proselytize? In SoD, we're told that
the clerics are tools for the gods to intervene in case something that affected them happened outside of their third of the world.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 11:29 AM

When I fight with my friends I do not expect it to spawn a murderous abomination, you can't really fault them for not knowing the consequences of something that literally never happened before.

On the contrary, as exposited, the Snarl grew for some time as the fights continued. They could've noticed and done something about it before it became malevolent and murdered a fourth of all gods, but they chose to keep fighting, so I can and in fact do fault them (as much, that is, as I can fault fictional entities with no actual agency).

But at fault or not, their MO after the World 1.0 debacle was to set up rules for godly conduct, so I can perfectly imagine that they'd set rules on how much they can direct their pawns to attack other pawns.

ETA:

Are we ever told that the clerics are there to proselytize?
I'm not sure it is explicit, but Hel is the poster child of what happens when a god has no priest to proselytise.

Grey Wolf

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 11:30 AM

On the contrary, as exposited, the Snarl grew for some time as the fights continued. They could've noticed and done something about it before it became malevolent and murdered a fourth of all gods, but they chose to keep fighting, so I can and in fact do fault them (as much, that is, as I can fault fictional entities with no actual agency).

But at fault or not, their MO after the World 1.0 debacle was to set up rules for godly conduct, so I can perfectly imagine that they'd set rules on how much they can direct their pawns to attack other pawns.

GW

Valid points. I stand corrected.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 11:32 AM

Valid points. I stand corrected.

OK, that's now twice in one thread. This is just weird. Not sure what to do with myself.

GW

Snails

2017-11-29, 11:33 AM

There are some rules of engagement, which we do not understand. It is implied that Loki may be using as a figleaf: "I happened to answer a pre-existing personal request for information that had nothing to do with inter-religion politics, at this time. No, I did not send a priest on a holy mission to kill someone else's priest."

The details...there is a chance that Greg and Hilgya will chat about that one before they try to kill each other.

Calemyr

2017-11-29, 11:34 AM

I think Thor has to be NG for Durkon to be a cleric of his, as you can only be one step removed.

Hilgya is absolutely chaotic and either evil or neutral with evil tendencies, given her willingness to repeatedly attempt to poison her husband and only lament the racial saving throw bonus being hard to get around. Loki, I think, would be CN. Besides the whole turn/rebuke thing, his schtick is about defying expectations, not evil for evil's sake. If Giant claimed he was evil, but so chaotic that he decided the turn/rebuke rules just didn't apply to him, I wouldn't question it, but until we get straight confirmation, I think the logical answer is to say CN best fits the data we have on hand.

As for Hilgya and Durkon, I think I'm going with the Hilgya still loves Durkon side, largely because Hilgya is so at ease among the Order despite openly planning to kill one of their number. For that to work, she'd have to know that they're on the outs and any venue she could get that detail from would also have Durkon's undead status. She's relaxed around them because she knows they share a common goal: kill the vampire, save the dwarf. The saving the world bit is new, but even evil folk usually want to save the world - it's where they keep their stuff. They just tend to want to get something extra out of the bargain.

I think Hilgya may be angling to reconnect with Durkon as well. Durkon Jr likely was enough to get Hilgya out of her marriage, removing the one explicitly stated* obstacle she had with Durkon. Even more, Durkon Jr is leverage in favor of that relationship, as a responsibility Durkon's lawful nature would embrace. An "I may not follow the rules, but I know how to use them against those that do" style of thing.

* The unstated obstacle is alignment. It's not a deal breaker, I imagine, but most of the "healthy" romantic relationships shown are of similar alignments, while unhealthy ones tend to be of disparate ones.

SavageWombat

2017-11-29, 11:41 AM

I don't think we need to speculate about what rule, specifically, Loki is trying to skirt. But the idea that Loki is using Hilgya's quest to skirt SOME rule is pretty well supported.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 11:42 AM

I don't think we need to speculate about what rule, specifically, Loki is trying to skirt. But the idea that Loki is using Hilgya's quest to skirt SOME rule is pretty well supported.

Oh, I agree we don't need to speculate about anything. But that's never stopped us before. :smalltongue:

GW

Toper

2017-11-29, 12:16 PM

OK, that's now twice in one thread. This is just weird. Not sure what to do with myself.
They're just trolling you at this point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html)

wumpus

2017-11-29, 12:22 PM

If it's B it's a double serving of hypocrisy since she could have Sent to him anytime.
Aaaaaaah break-ups are always such messy things.

I think she already has tried sending to Durkon many times previously. Only for him to ignore them. Thus the title, Answering the Call might also be referring to the fact that someone (Loki) finally answered.

Only if Loki gave her Sending. Downside of being a Cleric is you rely on your God to give you spells. If Loki didn't want her getting in touch just to build this moment, she's not getting Sending.

I don't think gods are directly involved in handing out spells in 3.x, although Rich might like it enough to adopt it from AD&D (note that first and second level spells "just happen", 3rd,4th, and 5th go to an intermediary (angel or such) and 6th and 7th are handled directly by the god (note that AD&D only goes up to 7th for divine spells (but they are nearly as powerful as arcane 9th, it just works that way). Also you have to be a cleric of a greater god for 7th and at least lesser god for 6th.

Of course, between turning and "pray to Loki" it may be a sign that Rich is completely fed up with the rules (he has said before he won't let the interfere with the plot, but it seems odd that he wouldn't bother to change a single word to fit the rules). I suspect something weird is going on and Rich still has plenty up his sleeve.

As far as Durkon goes, sending isn't exactly a long phrase nor is it clear that blocking a sending is a good idea. Of course, at 10th level she could already spamming Durkon with 5 sendings a day (6 at 13th and probably a few bonus spells) so ignoring her is a likely option. Note that the SRD doesn't mention any way to block the sending (presumably he'd have to be aware of the kid).

If Durkon is ignoring the kid, expect a massive backstory infodump. It would have to be amazingly good to justify the need for the sudden (and presumably pre-planned) retcon (and not even retroactive continuity, but retroactive characterization which is a far greater story teller sin).

kaoskonfety

2017-11-29, 12:26 PM

They're just trolling you at this point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html)

Life imitates art moments. Best to just take it in, and maybe have tea and a cookie.

Cause cookies and tea.

Finagle

2017-11-29, 12:28 PM

I love how many punchlines are basically direct jabs at forum users.

The author has stated many times he no longer reads the forum. So, how could he even know what people are saying, to take a jab at them?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 12:31 PM

The author has stated many times he no longer reads the forum. So, how could he even know what people are saying, to take a jab at them?
We're just that predictable.

I don't think gods are directly involved in handing out spells in 3.x

They are in OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

GW

Rogar Demonblud

2017-11-29, 12:40 PM

OK, that's now twice in one thread. This is just weird. Not sure what to do with myself.

GW

Go by your local Red Cross and donate a unit? They often need extra during the holidays.

Darth Paul

2017-11-29, 12:43 PM

Neither of them had Protection memorized that day.

I award +10 Internets for this comment.

Ser Cumcision

2017-11-29, 12:55 PM

Sry of this was already answered, but what does "OG LG" mean?

GreatWyrmGold

2017-11-29, 12:56 PM

OK, that's now twice in one thread. This is just weird. Not sure what to do with myself.
GW
I know, right? It's weird. I mean, the point of logical discourse is supposed to be one person realizing they were wrong and correcting their views, but that happens so rarely that we don't know what to do about it.

* The unstated obstacle is alignment. It's not a deal breaker, I imagine, but most of the "healthy" romantic relationships shown are of similar alignments, while unhealthy ones tend to be of disparate ones.
Let's see now...what romantic relationships do we know about in any detail?
There's Haley and Elan, obviously. While Vaarsuvius describes them as "having nothing in common," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html) they are both Chaotic Good (just in different proportions of "lawful" and "good"). Unsurprisingly, Sabine and Nale fall into much the same category...but Nale is almost certainly LE, while Sabine (as a succubus) is CE. (Her actions and plans are also distinctly more chaotic than Nale's, so there's that.)
Elan and Nale's parents divorced because of irreconcilable alignment differences, so there's that.
Inkyrius and Vaarsuvius are both pretty neutral. Maybe one is NG but the other isn't, but they have pretty similar alignments. Yet, their relationship was having trouble even before the whole "black dragon" incident.
We also have Therkla and Elan. Therkla was probably CN, not having any particularly strong attachments to morality but also trying to avoid most immoral acts. This puts her at "similar alignment" level with Elan, but it's pretty clear that that relationship wouldn't have worked.
Let's throw in Roy and Miko, too. Their relationship got closer to being a thing than Therkla/Elan ever did, and their alignments are perfectly in sync, but (as V noted) they were still "utterly wrong for each other".
What conclusion can we draw from this? Alignment doesn't matter nearly as much as the parts of personality unrelated to alignment. Which is most of them.

Bob_McSurly

2017-11-29, 12:56 PM

I bet the reason why Hilgya is able to cast Turn Undead is the same reason why the clerics of the Dark One can cast Turn Undead too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), which is to say, irrelevant to the story.

Just to be clear, when it comes to Turning and Rebuking, Good clerics use positive energy, and Evil clerics use negative energy. When used on negative energy beings, like vampires, the effect of positive energy is Turning, and the effect of negative energy is Rebuking. When used on positive energy spirits (at least in OOTS), the effects are reversed, so that when an Evil cleric uses their Rebuke ability (that is, a bunch of negative energy) on a postive energy spirit, the result is the same as using the Turn ability (which uses positive energy) on a negative energy spirit. Redcloak was using Rebuke ability, but because the target was a positive energy spirit, the effect was equvilent to Turning. In no way does this imply that Rich doesn't care about Turning vs. Rebuking.

Jethro_Thrull

2017-11-29, 12:56 PM

Sry of this was already answered, but what does "OG LG" mean?

Original Linear Guild

Shining Wrath

2017-11-29, 12:58 PM

OK, that's now twice in one thread. This is just weird. Not sure what to do with myself.

GW

Go buy a lottery ticket. Pick the numbers yourself. You're on a roll!

I'm now wondering if we're going up against a Sicilian with death on the line regarding the identity of the baby. When Vaarsuvius breaks the 4th wall to tell us that there's no evidence for it, therefore it's almost certainly true - does that not reverse expectations and mean that the baby is not Durkon's? Or does it confirm that the baby must be Durkon's? Good thing I'm immune to iocaine powder.

Maybe the baby is Loki's. Extremely non-Immaculate Conceptions are common among pantheistic deities of that sort. That could explain Hilgya's anger, if Loki pretended to be Durkon trying to patch things up, knocked her up, and then left her without a word. And Loki, of course, is playing the long game, knowing that he might need Durkon dead because he had some sort of clue about what was coming, and so he screwed his cleric over in order to serve his agenda.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 01:03 PM

Go by your local Red Cross and donate a unit? They often need extra during the holidays.

I wish. I'm not allowed because I studied for a year in the UK during the mad cow disease panic.

I sincerely doubt that I'm a carrier for Creutzfeld-Jacob, but "the only way to test is to biopsy my dead brain" so not much I can do.

I've also been exposed to malaria recently enough that even if I got a waiver for the above*, I still am told better not.

All in all, I haven't been allowed to donate in years now.

GW

ETA:
*To be clear, I don't think it is something you can do. The last time I tried I was just told "it's not just the mad cow part, it's also having been to Africa in the last X years"

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 01:12 PM

Maybe the baby is Loki's. Extremely non-Immaculate Conceptions are common among pantheistic deities of that sort. That could explain Hilgya's anger, if Loki pretended to be Durkon trying to patch things up, knocked her up, and then left her without a word. And Loki, of course, is playing the long game, knowing that he might need Durkon dead because he had some sort of clue about what was coming, and so he screwed his cleric over in order to serve his agenda.

One : that's not what (non-)Immaculate mean (it's about the Original Sin, not sex, common mistake).

Two : You are really putting the "Wild" in "wild Man Guess".

maxon

2017-11-29, 01:12 PM

I know how you feel V.

... and the reason she had been praying to Loki hoping to learn of Durkon's whereabouts is that she wanted to tell him about Hilgyuson and she figured it'd be only proper to do it in person.
Hilgyudottir

Ruck

2017-11-29, 01:30 PM

How does that follow? Are you suggesting that only Evil gods would vote to destroy the world, so the fact Loki didn't vote that way means he's not Evil? Which perforce also means that Heimdall, Tyr and Sunna are all Evil, which doesn't seem likely in the slightest?

"If A, then B" does not imply "If not A, then not B."

Roderick_BR

2017-11-29, 01:38 PM

Hmm. Durkula isn't protected by the Godsmoot rules, but I assume the gods have their own sets of rules. These probably include restrictions on interference using clerics, but Loki can get away with this as a standard "answering a prayer for knowledge".
Curious though that the rules that made Loki act in a roundabout way such as this did not affect Hel's sending Durkula to invade the Dwarves' place and slaughter their cleric. Or perhaps they did, allowing Loki to send a cleric in response, and he chose her because he thought it would be funny.
I think the Godsmoot's rules doesnt apply outside the meeting place and during the event anyway. Roy may be talking about how she got no information from Loki on why he gave her the location, since the rule he's dancing around is the one about talking about the end of the world and the Snarl.
Likewise, Hel sending her own clerics to destroy a dwarven temple may look like a "local" conflict, not a large-scale holy war.

But Loki just doing something for the lulz is a good theory.

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 01:41 PM

But Loki just doing something for the lulz is a good theory.

That's not a theory that's his official position on the subject at hand. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)

Kish

2017-11-29, 01:47 PM

It's a rare D&D setting in which "clerics of X Good deity attack clerics of Y evil deity on sight if they're anywhere they don't expect legal problems from doing so" is nonstandard. Part of Hel's worship problem is that her undead priests kept getting killed as dungeon bosses--presumably by groups which included other gods' priests, with no more reason than "these are undead," which is synonymous with "these are Hel's creatures," being needed. The Twelve Gods never got in trouble for their paladins actively hunting down the Dark One's high priest, nor did the Dark One get in trouble for his high priest all but eradicating the Twelve Gods' paladin order; one could easily come up with some reason why existing rules that govern every other god's relationships don't apply to him, but I think it more likely that the only such rule that exists is the already-established rule that they'll clash through their priests and worshipers rather than directly with divine powers.

"If A, then B" does not imply "If not A, then not B."
I doubt very much that the Northern Pantheon is as much as 50% evil, much less the greater percentage that would be necessary for all the gods who voted Yes and some of the gods who voted No to be evil.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 02:01 PM

Hilgyudottir

The tyke has a beard. Balance of probability is that they're a boy.

GW

Angel Bob

2017-11-29, 02:31 PM

What I'm wondering is, why does Minrah look so similar to Hilgya? Blond hair, white skin, and similar armor make them downright difficult to tell apart in some panels. Considering the Giant has always prided himself on depicting a diversity of races and ethnicities, it seems strange and conspicuous to me that he'd make Minrah, the most prominent (and likely important) of the Firmament dwarves, another Aryan woman.

It makes me wonder if their visual similarity is in fact intentional, and possibly even a plot point, i.e. they might disguise themselves as one another, or be mistaken for each other, at some point. Because it's hard for me to believe this was a mistake...

elros

2017-11-29, 02:50 PM

I just love V's comment.

Also who is this guardian Belkar talks about, or is that slang ?
It's similar to "slip one past the goalie (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slip%20one%20past%20the%20goalie)".

I can't believe that Elan was able to remember Hilgya and Roy didn't. I guess he made a successful bardic knowledge check.

Doug Lampert

2017-11-29, 02:59 PM

Not if Loki's Evil. Evil gods only have Rebuke, as do evil clerics. Good gods only have Turning, as do good clerics. Neutrals allow a choice if the cleric is also Neutral. It's been posted on repeatedly, usually with the caveat that Rich might not be following the letter of the rules for drama.

It's cleric's alignment first, then god's, then choice.

And the one step rule has many exceptions, including at least one NG goddess with LE clerics (the 3.5 version of Mystra won't accept new LE clerics, but has existing ones).

That said, I disbelieve that Hilgya is Good, so she should Rebuke based on what we know and have been shown, and Rich is presumably up to something.

Ruck

2017-11-29, 03:07 PM

I know, right? It's weird. I mean, the point of logical discourse is supposed to be one person realizing they were wrong and correcting their views, but that happens so rarely that we don't know what to do about it.

Let's see now...what romantic relationships do we know about in any detail?
There's Haley and Elan, obviously. While Vaarsuvius describes them as "having nothing in common," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html) they are both Chaotic Good (just in different proportions of "lawful" and "good"). Unsurprisingly, Sabine and Nale fall into much the same category...but Nale is almost certainly LE, while Sabine (as a succubus) is CE. (Her actions and plans are also distinctly more chaotic than Nale's, so there's that.)
Elan and Nale's parents divorced because of irreconcilable alignment differences, so there's that.
Inkyrius and Vaarsuvius are both pretty neutral. Maybe one is NG but the other isn't, but they have pretty similar alignments. Yet, their relationship was having trouble even before the whole "black dragon" incident.
We also have Therkla and Elan. Therkla was probably CN, not having any particularly strong attachments to morality but also trying to avoid most immoral acts. This puts her at "similar alignment" level with Elan, but it's pretty clear that that relationship wouldn't have worked.
Let's throw in Roy and Miko, too. Their relationship got closer to being a thing than Therkla/Elan ever did, and their alignments are perfectly in sync, but (as V noted) they were still "utterly wrong for each other".
What conclusion can we draw from this? Alignment doesn't matter nearly as much as the parts of personality unrelated to alignment. Which is most of them.

Therkla is True Neutral, confirmed by the Giant (as were many other characters' alignments in a post). Similarly, I don't think it's nearly as certain as you seem to think that Nale is Lawful.

Corian

2017-11-29, 03:08 PM

I think Thor has to be NG for Durkon to be a cleric of his, as you can only be one step removed.

About that: here's my pet theory, fwiw. Dwarves are honour-bound thanks to the Hel bet, which means almost-always-lawful, especially religious types. (I know Hilgya is probably chaotic, but she's understood to be a black sheep, and exceptions do not infirm the principle.)
So the law-chaos axis alignment rules could have been relaxed for dwarves by the gods, because otherwise the plurality of chaotic northern gods would hardly receive any dwarven follower.
So Thor is CG, Durkon is LG, and nobody looks at the 2-alignment steps because Dwarf.

(Otherwise... I think Loki is CE, because the Thor-Loki feud is harder to justify otherwise. And I agree with the theory that Hilgya's CN (one step) and neutral clerics (on good-evil axis) have full turn/rebuke choice, independent of their god, in that setting. But I also like the idea that rebuke is more linked to death domain than evil alignment.)

Oh, I went and re-read some early Hilgya, I remembered episode 52 as giving some hints of evilness, but not only does it fail to do so, it explicitly says that Loki is a lord of Chaos without mentioning Evil. So the possibility that Hilgya, and maybe even Loki, is CN is very much open.

Edit: minor clarifications and added last paragraph.

NihhusHuotAliro

2017-11-29, 03:31 PM

My (incredibly unlikely, almost crackpot) theory, until proven otherwise, is that Hilgya returned to her husband, realizing that her one true love had been right in front of her all along, and they resolved their issues like functional adults from then on, and the baby's parents are Hilgya and her husband.

Because wouldn't it be hilarious if Hilgya got to find happiness, contentment, and family in Dwarven Lands, receiving all that fate has denied to Durkon?

I know Rich doesn't write that way, and that this is no more likely than Tarquin becoming good and re-marrying Elan's mom and adopting Roy, but I can hope, darn it!

Thaumic

2017-11-29, 03:48 PM

Therkla is True Neutral, confirmed by the Giant (as were many other characters' alignments in a post). Similarly, I don't think it's nearly as certain as you seem to think that Nale is Lawful.

Actually, Nale said himself in #57 that he is lawful. (Sorry, don't know how to provide links)

Kish

2017-11-29, 03:52 PM

You have too few posts to post links yet; as far as the forum software is concerned, you might be a spam bot.

Nale believed himself to be Lawful, but that doesn't mean he was right, and Rich has hinted that the Lawful/Chaotic axis of his alignment should be viewed as ambiguous.

drazen

2017-11-29, 03:55 PM

Actually, Nale said himself in #57 that he is lawful. (Sorry, don't know how to provide links)

I have vague memories of someone, possibly the Giant himself (don't quote me 100%, but I feel like it was?), saying something along the lines about Nale maybe not being as lawful as he thought he was. Sometime in the last book arc where he got killed, maybe.

No time to check the entire index of Giant comments to confirm this though!

SilverCacaobean

2017-11-29, 04:02 PM

But I also like the idea that rebuke is more linked to death domain than evil alignment

Well, redcloack has destruction and law domains, but can also rebuke...

factotum

2017-11-29, 04:26 PM

She was praying at night, which may mean she's evil (clerics typically prepare spells either at night or in the morning, alignment-dependent).

I don't think when a cleric prays for spells is alignment dependent? Durkon gets his spells refreshed at dusk, but that's because he's a vampire who is generally expected to be active during the night, not because he's Evil. Also, I don't think the sort of prayer where you ask your deity "Where do I find my ex-lover, so I can kill him?" is the same sort of prayer where they ask for spells, so isn't necessarily done at the same time.

Bob_McSurly

2017-11-29, 04:35 PM

I don't think when a cleric prays for spells is alignment dependent? Durkon gets his spells refreshed at dusk, but that's because he's a vampire who is generally expected to be active during the night, not because he's Evil. Also, I don't think the sort of prayer where you ask your deity "Where do I find my ex-lover, so I can kill him?" is the same sort of prayer where they ask for spells, so isn't necessarily done at the same time.
I pray at night, and I'm not a vampire. I suppose I'm less sure about my alignment though. Can I change my alignment by praying in the morning? :-)

Fyraltari

2017-11-29, 04:38 PM

I pray at night, and I'm not a vampire. I suppose I'm less sure about my alignment though. Can I change my alignment by praying in the morning? :-)

Well that depends, do you Turn or Rebuke Undead ?

littlebum2002

2017-11-29, 04:39 PM

That said, I disbelieve that Hilgya is Good, so she should Rebuke based on what we know and have been shown, and Rich is presumably up to something.

"Hilgya is not good" =/= "Hilgya has to use Rebuke"

Hilgya and Loki both being Neutral and Hilgya choosing to channel positive energy would fit with all of the evidence we have seen so far.

Lethologica

2017-11-29, 04:40 PM

That sounds about vague.
Okay, more specifically, try X.

Breccia

2017-11-29, 04:59 PM

Leave it to Loki to bypass the rules, indeed! Well played.

Cicciograna

2017-11-29, 05:19 PM

About the turn/rebuke thing, maybe this has already been proposed. Could it be that Loki is indeed Evil (and Hilgya as well), but since he has a VERY BAD relationship with the Goddess of Death, he chose to grant turning capabilities to his clerics? He still respects her, since they are relatives, but prefers a more proactive way for his followers to defend against hers.

snowblizz

2017-11-29, 05:32 PM

My (incredibly unlikely, almost crackpot) theory, until proven otherwise, is that Hilgya returned to her husband, realizing that her one true love had been right in front of her all along, and they resolved their issues like functional adults from then on, and the baby's parents are Hilgya and her husband.

Because wouldn't it be hilarious if Hilgya got to find happiness, contentment, and family in Dwarven Lands, receiving all that fate has denied to Durkon?

Falls to me to crush your hopes then. Any child of Hilgya and husband would nto be of that particular #RGB.

Look at #83, fair skinend both, husband almost a redhead actually. A very reddish brown.

The MunchKING

2017-11-29, 05:50 PM

OctoberRaven

2017-11-29, 06:55 PM

I think Hilgya coming back to kill Durkon is a longer callback then the way Chaos is defeated in 8 Bit Theatre...

JoeyTheNeko

2017-11-29, 07:45 PM

well we more or less have confirmation that is durkons kid.

arimareiji

2017-11-29, 08:38 PM

Am I the only one hoping for a flashback with Hilgya casting a spell that causes a pink + sign to hover in midair?

(I'm already pretty sure I'm the only one who's curious if she just forgot to pray for Protection from Sperm, 10' Radius".)

Jasdoif

2017-11-29, 08:46 PM

I have vague memories of someone, possibly the Giant himself (don't quote me 100%, but I feel like it was?), saying something along the lines about Nale maybe not being as lawful as he thought he was.You mean this?

Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.Interesting, that. Don't you think? :smallwink:

archon_huskie

2017-11-29, 08:56 PM

Has anyone else figured out yet that the guardian Belkar is referring to is the Fire Sigil Guardian from strip 52?
That's when Belkar is assuming the Dwarves did the nasty as it is the only time the Dwarves were semi-alone as far as he knows.

danielxcutter

2017-11-29, 08:56 PM

Not directly related to the current subject, but Hilgya's kid is really cute, isn't he? :smallredface:

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-29, 09:04 PM

Has anyone else figured out yet that the guardian Belkar is referring to is the Fire Sigil Guardian from strip 52?

Multiple people have. It's some kind of hockey reference. Start in page 1, and you'll come across an explanation fairly soon.

GW

GreatWyrmGold

2017-11-29, 09:45 PM

I can't believe that Elan was able to remember Hilgya and Roy didn't. I guess he made a successful bardic knowledge check.
Roy has been in the same room as Hilgya for roughly six strips before tonight, and didn't mention her specifically once. Elan went with her (and Durkon and Nale) in the fiery area, and did comment directly on her.

Therkla is True Neutral, confirmed by the Giant (as were many other characters' alignments in a post). Similarly, I don't think it's nearly as certain as you seem to think that Nale is Lawful.
I'm not convinced that Therkla being two steps (or 1.5, depending on how you count "diagonals") from Elan affects my point that much. As for Nale...Elan shares his mother's alignment and Nale's father is LE, Nale's modus operandi (particularly the precise plans) matches perfectly with certain defining breeds of LE and not at all with any major kind of CE, he said he was lawful, and the only particularly chaotic thing he did (aside from breaking the law, which...you know...evil) was not want to be under the influence of his father, which seemed more like a basic independence thing than a chaos thing. You have a shocking lack of evidence.
But let's leave out Nale for now. Out of the three "relationships" with identical alignments, one worked and two failed. Does this sound like stunning confirmation that alignments are vital to relationship success, or might other factors be more important? Factors like shared interests (which killed the TN/TN relationship) or similar priorities (which killed the LG/LG not-quite-one)?

Nale believed himself to be Lawful, but that doesn't mean he was right, and Rich has hinted that the Lawful/Chaotic axis of his alignment should be viewed as ambiguous.
This isn't exactly convincing. I can't think of any other time that someone has not had an accurate understanding of their own alignment, and more than they misunderstood their class or skill ranks.

You mean this?

I don't find Sunken Valley's points very convincing. I mean, that seems only slightly less lawful than rowdy, boisterous, stubborn folks...like dwarves, considered the epitome of law.
Not sure what to make of the Giant's comment, but I don't see Nale as being all that unLawful. He doesn't seem less Lawful than many devils, for instance. (Qarr's an imp, no?) This is going to sound wrong to anyone who isn't into Death of the Author, but...I don't find Rich Burlew's point about Nale's alignment very convincing. Which is probably the end of the argument, if the other guy believes WoG over textual interpretation.