Tempest Cleric Melee/Lightning Caster Build

[Bjornulfr]

I'm looking for advice on the best way to go about building a Tempest Domain Cleric that can hold his own in melee as well as utilizing the great thunder/lightning spells that are available. I just started a new campaign and I'm level 2. He's a human Illuskan non variant (I wanted to grab the attribute pts). I know a feat in the beginning is great, but later I can buy a feat for the relative cost of 2 ability pts vs. the additional 4 in the beginning. My attributes are as follows:
Str:16 Dex:10 Con:15 Int:9 Wis:16 Cha:10. We did 15,14,13,12,10,8 +6 for human and I moved the numbers around. What I want to know is how should I plan now to keep him smiting into mid-late game? The package seems strong in the beginning but I don't think it will sustain without dipping something else. I want to make sure that I can hit the Cleric capstone tho, flying lightning caster with a hammer? Yes. What should I be looking for going forward? I would like to figure out the best way to get an additional attack per round but that doesn't come til Fighter 5. I appreciate any ideas!

[Specter]

For melee with one attack, Booming Blade is quintessential. Grab it through Magic Initiate.
- It deals thunder damage, which can be maximized on a crit along with Divine Strike, and used to push people around with the level 6 ability.
- It deals more damage if the enemy moves, meaning they won't be going after more fragile allies.
- It scales at levels 5, 11 and 17, so at level 17 you'll be dealing 1d8+2d8+3d8+str in one attack. Solid.

[Joe the Rat]

If you absolutely, positively must attack twice, go two-weapon fighting. You will need the Dual Wielder feat so you can use non-light weapons - and only lose 1AC compared to having a shield.
But as Specter points out, Booming Blade works quite well. It's a normal melee attack, and nothing that keys off of casting stats, so no -1 / +0 casting stat issues.

Magic Initiate gets you two cantrips and a 1/day 1st. I'd take light or dancing lights for a bit of St. Elmo's Fire. Shocking grasp is also thematic, but will be a poor option given your relative inability to hit anything with it.

A Fighter Dip can help any melee build. You're probably going to want something to fit your weapon choice Dueling (sword & board), Great Weapon (greatsword/maul), or Two Weapon (if you go for the two-warhammer approach). Two levels gets you an Action Surge, so you can get that extra attack (or spell!) once / short rest.
If you had 13 Charisma available, you could switch this for Paladin2, which gets you a fighting style (not two-weapon) and Divine Smite. Radiant isn't that far from Lightning.

[SirGraystone]

For melee with one attack, Booming Blade is quintessential. Grab it through Magic Initiate.
- It deals thunder damage, which can be maximized on a crit along with Divine Strike, and used to push people around with the level 6 ability.
- It deals more damage if the enemy moves, meaning they won't be going after more fragile allies.
- It scales at levels 5, 11 and 17, so at level 17 you'll be dealing 1d8+2d8+3d8+str in one attack. Solid.

Before taking Magic Initiate, ask your DM you can take Booming Blade as one of your cleric cantrip. Since its thunder damage and you are a tempest cleric, it's not unreasonable and some DM will let you have it.

[Master O'Laughs]

For melee with one attack, Booming Blade is quintessential. Grab it through Magic Initiate.
- It deals thunder damage, which can be maximized on a crit along with Divine Strike, and used to push people around with the level 6 ability.
- It deals more damage if the enemy moves, meaning they won't be going after more fragile allies.
- It scales at levels 5, 11 and 17, so at level 17 you'll be dealing 1d8+2d8+3d8+str in one attack. Solid.

I am AFB right now but I thought the push affect was only with lightning damage? If so, booming blade would not push them.

I had a similar idea but choosing spell sniper instead so as to get a 10 ft reach with booming blade and use a whip. Sadly, that would be the only use of spell sniper on a cleric most likely.

[Specter]

I am AFB right now but I thought the push affect was only with lightning damage? If so, booming blade would not push them.

You're right.

[Gtdead]

I'd personally go for PAM+Spell Sniper along with Warcaster.

No matter how hard you try, your damage will never be good enough to charge in the front lines and smack people in the head. However with Booming Blade at 10 yards reach, any melee will think twice before attacking you and you will be great at duels.

Basically, any melee that charges you and doesn't kill you, will be forced to take up to 2d10+10+14d8 damage. The reason this scales so well is because it allows you to use your reaction more efficiently (cleric doesn't have good uses for it), allows 2 divine strikes per round, and since you can use BB from 10 yards, the enemy will have to move in order to attack you, triggering the second effect.

You can always have a shield just in case you encounter lots of archers.

However, I consider this a higher level build and it would be better to keep STR low and try and get Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Wisdom is more important than STR. The progression would be something along the lines of

VHuman - Warcaster, WIS>CON>STR
ASI WIS
ASI WIS
PAM
Spell Sniper
Resilient CON or ASI CON.

Basic playstyle in melee would be SG+Dodge action. Otherwise stay at range, toll the dead, maximized shatters and call lightning.

Rant time:

Really though, Cleric melee options are crap and developers do nothing to improve it. I mean, seriously, just look at Tempest Cleric. He is clearly geared for a full caster build, especially at the time that it was published, with no BB. Why would they give him divine strike instead of Potent Spellcasting? They gave him Thunderbolt, but the only ability that can consistently make good use of it is Call Lightning. Pretty much nothing else, forcing the class into a very specific playstyle.

They gave SW and SG to support the Melee playstyle. These 2 key of WIS, he gets access to save based cantrips that can be used in melee without problem, while the main attack keys of STR. Come on! This forces him into investing in STR ASI to keep the melee attack on the curve, and it's super weak anyway.

[Master O'Laughs]

Basically, any melee that charges you and doesn't kill you, will be forced to take up to 2d10+10+14d8 damage. The reason this scales so well is because it allows you to use your reaction more efficiently (cleric doesn't have good uses for it), allows 2 divine strikes per round, and since you can use BB from 10 yards, the enemy will have to move in order to attack you, triggering the second effect.

I am confused, where is the 2d10 coming from? Is that supposed to be an attack on your turn as well as the PAM attack from then closing with you?

I am then thinking all the d8s are coming from Divine Strike and 2 booming blades. The order for all the damage would be as follows then I am guessing:

Enemy enters your reach: 1d10+5 (slashing) +3d8 (Thunder)
Enemy closes with you to attack: 4d8 (Thunder)
Your turn: 1d10+5 (slashing)+3d8 (Thunder, booming blade)+2d8 (Thunder, divine strike)

From the reading of Divine Strike, it seems it applies only on your turn: "Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause that attack to deal extra damage"

Is your reaction considered an additional turn within the round? I guess initiative would potentially play a role, if you started your turn before the creature then on your following turn it would be a new round allowing another application of Divine strike.

[Gtdead]

2d10 is the 2 polearm attacks. I just added the 2 1d10+5 together.

As far as divine strike is concerned, I think you are correct. I assumed it worked like Sneak Attack, but the wording specifies that it has to be the cleric's turn.

Sneak attack says "once per turn", it doesn't specify anything, so people are happy to use it on another's turn, just not more than once each turn.

It seems that Divine Strike doesn't work that way, my bad. Still it's a total of 2d10+12d8+10

[Master O'Laughs]

2d10 is the 2 polearm attacks. I just added the 2 1d10+5 together.

As far as divine strike is concerned, I think you are correct. I assumed it worked like Sneak Attack, but the wording specifies that it has to be the cleric's turn.

Sneak attack says "once per turn", it doesn't specify anything, so people are happy to use it on another's turn, just not more than once each turn.

It seems that Divine Strike doesn't work that way, my bad. Still it's a total of 2d10+12d8+10

Yeah, still pretty awesome, combine it with a spiritual weapon for even more damage.

Also, if you get your hands on an adamantine weapon, go ahead and double all those dice! It makes for a great use of your channel divinity to maximize 10d8 damage!

[Saggo]

I'm looking for advice on the best way to go about building a Tempest Domain Cleric that can hold his own in melee as well as utilizing the great thunder/lightning spells that are available. I just started a new campaign and I'm level 2. He's a human Illuskan non variant (I wanted to grab the attribute pts). I know a feat in the beginning is great, but later I can buy a feat for the relative cost of 2 ability pts vs. the additional 4 in the beginning. My attributes are as follows:
Str:16 Dex:10 Con:15 Int:9 Wis:16 Cha:10. We did 15,14,13,12,10,8 +6 for human and I moved the numbers around. What I want to know is how should I plan now to keep him smiting into mid-late game? The package seems strong in the beginning but I don't think it will sustain without dipping something else. I want to make sure that I can hit the Cleric capstone tho, flying lightning caster with a hammer? Yes. What should I be looking for going forward? I would like to figure out the best way to get an additional attack per round but that doesn't come til Fighter 5. I appreciate any ideas!

The best way would have been to start Variant Human, High Elf, or Sorcerer. 3 of the +4 points from Standard Human don't help your goal of meleeing into mid-late game whereas the feat would have. Booming Blade+Divine Strike, as pointed out, is a solid attack (comparable to 2 Extra Attacks in damage), it combines well with Spirit Guardians, and it works well enough that you don't have to multiclass to stay relevant.

Given that you've started your character already, I'd suggest:
Level 4: Mage Initiate or Spell Sniper for Booming Blade
Level 8: Resilient Con
Levels 12, 16, 19: Bounce between Str and Wis for a final 20/16/18 spread.

You still have options, such as going 18/16/18 for an additional feat like Warcaster.

Basic combat:
Turn 1: Spirit Guardians
Turn 2: Booming Blade + Spiritual Weapon if useful
Turn 3+: Booming Blade + Healing Word as needed


No matter how hard you try, your damage will never be good enough to charge in the front lines and smack people in the head.

I contend it is good enough. Numbers work out that a Cleric (with just Booming Blade, Divine Strike, and Spiritual Weapon and/or Spirit Guardians) has comparable damage to any number of sword & board classes/builds, and that's including the action cost of casting 2 leveled spells. You could potentially have 16 in Str or Dex, Con (with Resilient), and Wis by level 4 with a final 20/16/20 spread, and 18-20 AC and d10 equivalent HP with Aid. You're getting hard control from BB+SG synergy. And you still have the framework and versatility of full casting as options.

A well built melee Cleric (without and with PAM), can appreciably replace a sword & board party slot at no detriment to the party. In that regard, a melee Cleric is a perfectly valid build.

[pagolin]

I've been about a build like this myself for a while. The biggest problem I can see is the MAD issue. As a straight tempest cleric your melee will be fine up until level 5, especially if you're using spiritual weapon. But with that point set up and a non-variant human, your wisdom saves are going to fall behind. And having enemies save on your Destructive wrath upcast shatter is going to suck. One way to deal with this is shillelagh, but that really isn't going to work much past level 5 either unless you pair it with the SCAG cantrips. So you could dip one level in druid for shillelagh while maintaining spell slot progression, then at cleric level 4 take magic initiate for booming blade then start bumping wisdom. But imo this is a lot of sacrifice to make your mid game melee decent, especially since, as noted above, booming blade will not proc the knockback.

Some interesting Magic initiate options that will proc the knockback are Shocking Grasp and Chromatic Orb. Upcast Chromatic Orb is a reasonable use for destructive wrath if there is only one target or enemies are too spread out to catch in shatter or thunderwave. Lightning lure will also proc the knockback, but that seems very silly. It might be kind of funny with a ground effect spell like spike growth.

The way I plan on doing it when I get the chance is just enjoy the 5 levels of strong melee, take magic initiate for shocking grasp and chromatic orb at 4 then shift to a more caster focus. The consistent, easy knockbacks from those two spells combined with sleet storm can lock down a really large group of enemies, both melee since they can't get anywhere, and casters since their concentration will be breaking constantly.

[Galadhrim]

Some interesting Magic initiate options that will proc the knockback are Shocking Grasp and Chromatic Orb. Upcast Chromatic Orb is a reasonable use for destructive wrath if there is only one target or enemies are too spread out to catch in shatter or thunderwave. Lightning lure will also proc the knockback, but that seems very silly. It might be kind of funny with a ground effect spell like spike growth.

The way I plan on doing it when I get the chance is just enjoy the 5 levels of strong melee, take magic initiate for shocking grasp and chromatic orb at 4 then shift to a more caster focus. The consistent, easy knockbacks from those two spells combined with sleet storm can lock down a really large group of enemies, both melee since they can't get anywhere, and casters since their concentration will be breaking constantly.

He has 10 cha so shocking grasp and chromatic orb are problematic.

I get what you are saying about Human giving you more attribute points but in reality there is no difference in an 8 and a 9, a 10 and an 11, etc so much of that is wasted. If your DM lets you remake as a variant human, you should think about it (you are only level 2). that would allow you to use the theme of your character with booming blade from the beginning of play.

If you are allowed, then magic initiate for booming blade, a utility cantrip you can't get on cleric such as mold earth or minor illusion, and find familiar is quite nice. A Tempest Cleric with an owl familiar or a crow familiar is quite thematic I think and it will help you with your melee (familiar help action). If you are not allowed to rebuild, then just do this at level 4 to get the concept off the ground. I don't think you should waste time getting shillelagh. 16 in a melee stat is fine through level 10 and after that you will be using your spells much more often anyway (plus you should have advantage a lot from your familiar). If you are allowed to go v. human then +2 wis at level 4 and res con at level 8, you should be good to go. You will do plenty respectable damage with booming blade (option to maximize), spiritual weapon, and spirit guardians + your reaction damage when enemies hit you.

That is just a base. You still bring all the utility and buffing power of the Cleric, plus you can blast when you need to with shatter (also option to maximize) or thunderwave early game and destructive wave once you reach level 9. Having played this build, I can confirm it is fun in combat and the character was great in roleplay as well.

[khachaturian]

I played a tempest cleric that was a front-liner, but didn't necessarily hit things with a pointy stick. the gist was

vuman1 heavy armor master s 14 (15 with ham) d 10 c 16 i 8 w 16 c 8
4 wis +2
8 wis +2
12 warcaster

spells with a lot of mileage
- spiritual weapon
- spirit guardians
- thunderwave
- sacred flame

it is advantageous to be in the thick of things for a number of reasons
- heavy armor master
- wrath of the storm
- thunderwave

with the main downside of possible problems with concentration checks until you get warcaster

[Gtdead]

I contend it is good enough. Numbers work out that a Cleric (with just Booming Blade, Divine Strike, and Spiritual Weapon and/or Spirit Guardians) has comparable damage to any number of sword & board classes/builds, and that's including the action cost of casting 2 leveled spells. You could potentially have 16 in Str or Dex, Con (with Resilient), and Wis by level 4 with a final 20/16/20 spread, and 18-20 AC and d10 equivalent HP with Aid. You're getting hard control from BB+SG synergy. And you still have the framework and versatility of full casting as options.

A well built melee Cleric (without and with PAM), can appreciably replace a sword & board party slot at no detriment to the party. In that regard, a melee Cleric is a perfectly valid build.

Is it really though? I mean, this is a fully optimized cleric build that assumes SW in every encounter. What happens when the other classes optimize too?
Let's try an Quarterstaff AoHate Oathbreaker Pam Dueling Paladin, Quarterstaff PAM Dueling Fighter and a Tempest Cleric with SW. I'm not even going to calculate Hit chance.

Cleric
Lvl 5: BB + SW = 3d8 + 6 / 19.5
Lvl 8: BB + SW = 4d8 + 6 / 24
Lvl 11: BB + SW = 5d8 + 6 / 28.5
Lvl 14: BB + SW = 6d8 + 7 / 34
Lvl 17: BB + SW = 7d8 + 8 / 39.5
Lvl 20: BB + SW = 7d8 + 9 / 40.5

Paladin
Lvl 5: 2d6 + 1d4 + 18 / 27.5
Lvl 8: 2d6 + 1d4 + 30 / 39.5
Lvl 11: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 30 / 53
Lvl 14: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 33 / 56
Lvl 17: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 36 / 59
Lvl 20: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 36 / 59

Fighter
Lvl 5: 2d6 + 1d4 + 18 / 27.5
Lvl 8: 2d6 + 1d4 + 21 / 30.5
Lvl 11: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 14: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 17: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 20: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 51.5

Truth is, he barely competes with completely unoptimized 1h+shield builds. Factoring in hit chance, he falls behind even more, and he doesn't actually have any way to trigger BB unless he wants to risk Opportunity Attacks. DM can probably get away with never triggering the rider, without suffering any actual drawback.

Yes, there is more to cleric than just melee damage, but it's clearly his weak point, and he sacrifices spell DC in order to boost it to.
Personally I'd just ask the DM to switch Divine Strike for Potent Spell casting, and go into melee with SF. I'd probably do the same even if he refused.

[Captain Bob]

I'd follow the suggestion above and just ask your DM to let you take booming blade. Explain you want your at-will damage to be from melee rather than cantrips - as noted here, it really doesn't make you OP or whatever and it really does fit with class features much more. If anything, you needing two stats makes it waaaay less optimized. Your primary role is still a full caster, and even with booming blade you won't outshine dedicated DPR attack-centric classes. Other kind of goofy way to do this if your DM shuts you down would be magic initiate booming blade, and MC a druid level for shillelagh. Excessive? Absolutely. Fun? Maybe...if you can handle delaying cleric stuff and don't mind hitting people with a wooden pimp-cane instead of a warhammer.

[Master O'Laughs]

Is it really though? I mean, this is a fully optimized cleric build that assumes SW in every encounter. What happens when the other classes optimize too?
Let's try an Quarterstaff AoHate Oathbreaker Pam Dueling Paladin, Quarterstaff PAM Dueling Fighter and a Tempest Cleric with SW. I'm not even going to calculate Hit chance.

Cleric
Lvl 5: BB + SW = 3d8 + 6 / 19.5
Lvl 8: BB + SW = 4d8 + 6 / 24
Lvl 11: BB + SW = 5d8 + 6 / 28.5
Lvl 14: BB + SW = 6d8 + 7 / 34
Lvl 17: BB + SW = 7d8 + 8 / 39.5
Lvl 20: BB + SW = 7d8 + 9 / 40.5

Paladin
Lvl 5: 2d6 + 1d4 + 18 / 27.5
Lvl 8: 2d6 + 1d4 + 30 / 39.5
Lvl 11: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 30 / 53
Lvl 14: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 33 / 56
Lvl 17: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 36 / 59
Lvl 20: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 36 / 59

Fighter
Lvl 5: 2d6 + 1d4 + 18 / 27.5
Lvl 8: 2d6 + 1d4 + 21 / 30.5
Lvl 11: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 14: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 17: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 20: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 51.5

Truth is, he barely competes with completely unoptimized 1h+shield builds. Factoring in hit chance, he falls behind even more, and he doesn't actually have any way to trigger BB unless he wants to risk Opportunity Attacks. DM can probably get away with never triggering the rider, without suffering any actual drawback.

Yes, there is more to cleric than just melee damage, but it's clearly his weak point, and he sacrifices spell DC in order to boost it to.
Personally I'd just ask the DM to switch Divine Strike for Potent Spell casting, and go into melee with SF. I'd probably do the same even if he refused.

The only thing to add is the cleric could up-cast SW for more damage and they could have SG up as well (and probably would). The still may not be the same but it does help them stay closer in damage. Of course the paladin can smite as well which I do not believe was calculated and the fighter could action surge.

A comprehensive breakdown with all this being would be interesting to see but at the end of the day, yes the cleric is not "supposed" to be the main damage dealer, they are fun to try and maximize their damage though.

[Galadhrim]

Is it really though? I mean, this is a fully optimized cleric build that assumes SW in every encounter. What happens when the other classes optimize too?
Let's try an Quarterstaff AoHate Oathbreaker Pam Dueling Paladin, Quarterstaff PAM Dueling Fighter and a Tempest Cleric with SW. I'm not even going to calculate Hit chance.

Truth is, he barely competes with completely unoptimized 1h+shield builds. Factoring in hit chance, he falls behind even more, and he doesn't actually have any way to trigger BB unless he wants to risk Opportunity Attacks. DM can probably get away with never triggering the rider, without suffering any actual drawback.

Yes, there is more to cleric than just melee damage, but it's clearly his weak point, and he sacrifices spell DC in order to boost it to.
Personally I'd just ask the DM to switch Divine Strike for Potent Spell casting, and go into melee with SF. I'd probably do the same even if he refused.

Right, your cleric is not a fighter. If you want to be a fighter, be a fighter. However, you don't have to compete with a fighter or a Paladin in dpr round to round bc that is not what you'll be doing on a round to round basis. When I played my str based tempest cleric with MI for booming blade I would take an action for a booming blade attack on avg once per fight. The point is, when you use your bonus action to cast spiritual weapon, it is nice to be able to use you action for booming blade rather than simple melee. If the creature is almost dead it is nice to have the option maximize the damage. These type of things help you stretch your spell slots so that you don't run short after one fight. If you can take a meaningful action, bonus action, and reaction in every round, you are playing at a much higher level. As far as the dm never triggering your BB damage with movement, even better, you have accomplished your desired task of keeping creators on you and off of your backline. Note you are more likely to proc your wrath of the storm and add damage that way.

[Saggo]

Is it really though? I mean, this is a fully optimized cleric build that assumes SW in every encounter. What happens when the other classes optimize too?
Let's try an Quarterstaff AoHate Oathbreaker Pam Dueling Paladin, Quarterstaff PAM Dueling Fighter and a Tempest Cleric with SW. I'm not even going to calculate Hit chance.

Cleric
Lvl 5: BB + SW = 3d8 + 6 / 19.5
Lvl 8: BB + SW = 4d8 + 6 / 24
Lvl 11: BB + SW = 5d8 + 6 / 28.5
Lvl 14: BB + SW = 6d8 + 7 / 34
Lvl 17: BB + SW = 7d8 + 8 / 39.5
Lvl 20: BB + SW = 7d8 + 9 / 40.5

Paladin
Lvl 5: 2d6 + 1d4 + 18 / 27.5
Lvl 8: 2d6 + 1d4 + 30 / 39.5
Lvl 11: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 30 / 53
Lvl 14: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 33 / 56
Lvl 17: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 36 / 59
Lvl 20: 2d6 + 1d4 + 3d8 + 36 / 59

Fighter
Lvl 5: 2d6 + 1d4 + 18 / 27.5
Lvl 8: 2d6 + 1d4 + 21 / 30.5
Lvl 11: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 14: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 17: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 41
Lvl 20: 3d6 + 1d4 + 28 / 51.5

Truth is, he barely competes with completely unoptimized 1h+shield builds. Factoring in hit chance, he falls behind even more, and he doesn't actually have any way to trigger BB unless he wants to risk Opportunity Attacks. DM can probably get away with never triggering the rider, without suffering any actual drawback.

Yes, there is more to cleric than just melee damage, but it's clearly his weak point, and he sacrifices spell DC in order to boost it to.
Personally I'd just ask the DM to switch Divine Strike for Potent Spell casting, and go into melee with SF. I'd probably do the same even if he refused.

Your assumptions grant a negative bias to Cleric. Forgo Paladin, it's a disingenuous comparison since an optimized, offensive Paladin outclasses every other sword & board build, not just Cleric. Nor was upcasting and Spirit Guardians included, which by level 11 can both be active for 6 encounters at varying levels and are a key component of the build. It's also an AoE, so if it hits 2 targets in one turn it will outperformed a Smite. Nor is it required to damage with BB's rider, as you've aptly shown before it's control (especially when combined with SG).

Cleric
Lvl 5: BB + SW(2) = 3d8 + 6 / 19.5 or BB + SG(3) = 5d8 + 3 / 25.5
Lvl 8: BB + SW(4) = 5d8 + 6 / 28.5 or BB + SG(3) = 6d8 + 3 / 30
Lvl 11: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 8d8 + 6 / 42 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 12d8 + 6 / 60
Lvl 14: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 9d8 + 7 / 47.5 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 13d8 + 7 / 64.5
Lvl 17: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 10d8 + 8 / 53 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 14d8 + 8 / 71
Lvl 20: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 10d8 + 9 / 54 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 14d8 + 9 / 72


Those are comparable, competitive numbers. Not always better (obviously), but it's not always worse (demonstrably), like I said it's good enough.

[Master O'Laughs]

So as the sticky tank, are you better going for a 1H weapon and shield (better AC) with the sentinel feat (enemies cannot disengage from you) or the reach of a polearm and triggering an AoO (and therefore a Booming Blade with Warcaster) upon the enemy entering your reach?

Is it simply a tradeoff of damage for tankiness? Which feat serves you better to be sticky to the enemy, with the idea of keeping them in your SG sphere of influence?

EDIT: I just realized that sentinel has negative synergy with booming blade if used and an AoO because movement would be reduced to 0.

[Biggstick]

One of the biggest bits not being talked about here from what I can tell is that you need Warcaster to be able to use BB on your opportunity attack. This has to be a feat you take if you're considering BB for opportunity attacks.

So my favorite class is Cleric. I've played a Cleric in at least one game a week for the past 3 years. I've played Knowledge, Light, Life, Nature, Tempest, and Arcana Clerics, and I can tell you with confidence that they are not going to be able to keep up with the primary melee martials once you get to level 5. You can try to, but your weapon strikes will become less and less viable as a use of your Action the higher and higher you climb in level. What you'll come to find is that your turn is better spent getting a solid concentration spell up (Bless, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians, Banishment, etc), and providing presence and support to your martial allies (if you have heavy armor) or providing presence and support to your caster/ranged allies (if you have medium armor).

Yeah, it's potentially boring if you're not really into the class (or playing a blaster like Light/Tempest), but it's what the Cleric class is best at. You're a Cleric, and your baseline abilities make you one of the best combat support characters in the game. Your domain is what gives you a little bit more flavor, and is usually a pretty good determinate on how you can compliment that combat support base Cleric provides you.

A Tempest Cleric does fantastic in the first few levels as acting as a "front liner," due to their heavy armor and ability to rebuke damage on attackers. This feels great in the early game, and might trick you into believing you can continue to act as a "front liner" in the mid and late game. Without heavy DM assistance (specifically dropping things like +3 Plate armor, a Ring of Protection, Luck Stone, etc) to increase your ability to reduce incoming damage, you'll starting taking too much damage and have too small of a hit point pool to be that "front line." The closest a Tempest Cleric wants to be to the front line is about where you see your striker classes (like the Monk, melee Rogue, and PAM martials). This allows them to step up for a moment to the front line, and provide a bit of relief in regards to incoming attacks from enemies, and to drop back again to continue supporting the primary "front line." This isn't to say a Tempest Cleric can't stand in the back with the Wizards/Sharpshooters, but they have the option to act as a "second line" for the primary martial characters.

With the amount of Cleric I've played, I would go as far to say that you only need an 18 in your Wisdom if your contributions to combat are based on your saving throw DC's being high. If you're only running concentration spells like Bless and Spirit Guardians, you really don't need to worry about even having higher then a 16 Wisdom. What's most important, in my experience, in playing a Cleric is being able to maintain your concentration spells. This makes feats like Warcaster and Resilient Constitution much higher in value to me versus getting a 20 Wisdom. The combination of those two feats makes it difficult for you to be forced to drop your concentration. After getting those two feats, then I'd worry about pushing my 18 Wisdom to 20.

In regards to your actual post, you should go Spell Sniper at 4 for Booming Blade. Go Warcaster at 8. Have a 16 Strength, use a Whip and Shield, and never get within 5' of an enemy. Use opportunity attacks on BB with your Whip (at 10'), and attack enemies over and around your allies with your 10' of reach. Play with this for a few levels, only to realize that you spend a majority of your combats utilizing Bless/Spirit Guardians/Banishment/Call Lightning (when outside) as your concentration spell. Realize that you're better off spending actions casting spells, and making sure you are able to maintain concentration on said spells (Dodge action). Put next ASI into Wisdom or Resilient Con. Put next ASI into whatever you didn't at 12. And then the same thing again at 16.

[Gtdead]

When you leave your WIS at 18 and spend 2 ASIs and 1 Feat just to increase your melee damage, you damn sure care about competing with others. The other two classes are like that by default. They don't sacrifice anything.

Yes, having efficient action economy is an important part of optimization, but so is having high Spell DC in order to make use of your more offensive spells. You trade that ability by going STR for a really small increase in damage output.

You also have very strong spells to use maximize on, you don't need Booming Blade. You have Call Lightning and Destructive Wrath, spells that can literally trivialize encounters. That Channel Divinity pretty much makes you the hottest nuker in the game.

I disagree about BB forcing enemies to stay near you being a strong point. You are a prime target. The enemies should want to kill you and you should want to keep them at distance. Not rushing headlong into the frontlines, swinging the game's smallest weapon. We are talking about a class that is based on concentration effects that deal above average damage. Why would anyone want to attack anything else than you? And if for some reason, the other casters in your party are exposed, you can just put a sanctuary on them. This is the logic behind the build I posted that is based on Gauntlets of Ogre Power. You leave an open window for the Melee enemies to attack you, but it's going to cost them dearly if they decide to do it. However, the build first makes you an accomplished caster.

But even if that was the case, it's not like you actually need it, Toll the Dead deals comparable damage. I just wish that Tempest had access to potent spellcasting instead of divine strike.


Your assumptions grant a negative bias to Cleric. Forgo Paladin, it's a disingenuous comparison since an optimized, offensive Paladin outclasses every other sword & board build, not just Cleric. Nor was upcasting and Spirit Guardians included, which by level 11 can both be active for 6 encounters at varying levels and are a key component of the build. It's also an AoE, so if it hits 2 targets in one turn it will outperformed a Smite. Nor is it required to damage with BB's rider, as you've aptly shown before it's control (especially when combined with SG).

Cleric
Lvl 5: BB + SW(2) = 3d8 + 6 / 19.5 or BB + SG(3) = 5d8 + 3 / 25.5
Lvl 8: BB + SW(4) = 5d8 + 6 / 28.5 or BB + SG(3) = 6d8 + 3 / 30
Lvl 11: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 8d8 + 6 / 42 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 12d8 + 6 / 60
Lvl 14: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 9d8 + 7 / 47.5 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 13d8 + 7 / 64.5
Lvl 17: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 10d8 + 8 / 53 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 14d8 + 8 / 71
Lvl 20: BB + SW(2) + SG(3) = 10d8 + 9 / 54 up to BB + SW(6) + SG(5) = 14d8 + 9 / 72


Those are comparable, competitive numbers. Not always better (obviously), but it's not always worse (demonstrably), like I said it's good enough.

Someone claimed that the melee damage was comparable to any Shield+1h build. I compared it against the 2 classes that most likely use such a build and proved it wrong. But the whole point is that Cleric DOESN'T NEED melee optimization to go into melee There is absolutely NO DOWNSIDE in using his ranged cantrips. He can just use SF or TtD and lose minimal Dpr compared to STR BB while spending his ASIs into stuff that is actually useful, like maxing WIS and CON and feats that help his Concentration.

Just switch all BB with TtD and see what I mean. At lvl 11, with TtD+SW+SG he deals 42.5, At lvl 17 49, and he is more likely to maintain concentration throughout the encounter, while being generally more tanky. Also if we consider hit chances, STR BB has lower hit chance with SW and SG throughout the whole progression, while the TtD cleric gains WIS boosts normally.

[Saggo]

So my favorite class is Cleric. I've played a Cleric in at least one game a week for the past 3 years. I've played Knowledge, Light, Life, Nature, Tempest, and Arcana Clerics, and I can tell you with confidence that they are not going to be able to keep up with the primary melee martials once you get to level 5. You can try to, but your weapon strikes will become less and less viable as a use of your Action the higher and higher you climb in level. What you'll come to find is that your turn is better spent getting a solid concentration spell up (Bless, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians, Banishment, etc), and providing presence and support to your martial allies (if you have heavy armor) or providing presence and support to your caster/ranged allies (if you have medium armor).

[...]

A Tempest Cleric does fantastic in the first few levels as acting as a "front liner," due to their heavy armor and ability to rebuke damage on attackers. This feels great in the early game, and might trick you into believing you can continue to act as a "front liner" in the mid and late game. Without heavy DM assistance (specifically dropping things like +3 Plate armor, a Ring of Protection, Luck Stone, etc) to increase your ability to reduce incoming damage, you'll starting taking too much damage and have too small of a hit point pool to be that "front line." The closest a Tempest Cleric wants to be to the front line is about where you see your striker classes (like the Monk, melee Rogue, and PAM martials). This allows them to step up for a moment to the front line, and provide a bit of relief in regards to incoming attacks from enemies, and to drop back again to continue supporting the primary "front line." This isn't to say a Tempest Cleric can't stand in the back with the Wizards/Sharpshooters, but they have the option to act as a "second line" for the primary martial characters.

The best action is wildly dependent on encounter (how many targets are there, you get one Concentration, casting a leveled spell every turn isn't efficient) and party composition (is there already a controller, already support, how many ranged vs melee are there, is there already sword & board). Attack doesn't have to be the best option or even better, it just has to be a good option and if built well it mechanically is. It's 2-6d8 at-will, with no resource cost, and control synergy with Spirit Guardians or light 1-4d8 AoE. Even, if there was a better spell to cast, that's not a poor choice or unviable.

As far as frontlining, with Aid you have the same or higher effective hit dice as a Fighter, the same potential 20+ AC, and still have the capability for War Caster or Shield Master (both, if you settle for 18/16/18). You can offset additional damage with self heals. True, you're behind in opportunity cost, but you parallel a Fighter more than but a handful of full casters.

And, as you've aptly pointed out, you can still fall back and provide support, control, and blasting. You're doing similar damage as other sword & board builds and you can still switch roles, mid-encounter if need be. A Fighter certainly doesn't have that flexibility.

If it matters, I've been playing Clerics a long time as well, and my melee Tempest for well over a year.

[Galadhrim]

When you leave your WIS at 18 and spend 2 ASIs and 1 Feat just to increase your melee damage, you damn sure care about competing with others. The other two classes are like that by default. They don't sacrifice anything.

Yes, having efficient action economy is an important part of optimization, but so is having high Spell DC in order to make use of your more offensive spells. You trade that ability by going STR for a really small increase in damage output.

You also have very strong spells to use maximize on, you don't need Booming Blade. You have Call Lightning and Destructive Wrath, spells that can literally trivialize encounters. That Channel Divinity pretty much makes you the hottest nuker in the game.

I disagree about BB forcing enemies to stay near you being a strong point. You are a prime target. The enemies should want to kill you and you should want to keep them at distance. Not rushing headlong into the frontlines, swinging the game's smallest weapon. We are talking about a class that is based on concentration effects that deal above average damage. Why would anyone want to attack anything else than you? And if for some reason, the other casters in your party are exposed, you can just put a sanctuary on them. This is the logic behind the build I posted that is based on Gauntlets of Ogre Power. You leave an open window for the Melee enemies to attack you, but it's going to cost them dearly if they decide to do it. However, the build first makes you an accomplished caster.

But even if that was the case, it's not like you actually need it, Toll the Dead deals comparable damage. I just wish that Tempest had access to potent spellcasting instead of divine strike.

I understand what your saying and I agree that your most important role is spellcasting, not melee. I don't see where you are spending 2 ASI and a feat (3 ASI?) to make booming blade happen, at least I would not advise that. OP specifically asked for a tempest cleric that can hold his own in melee, utilizing thunder and lightning spells. To me, that is best accomplished using booming blade. Certainly, it depends on what level you are playing to (my campaigns tend to end around level 12), but up to that point, starting with a 16 in str and leaving it there and spending one ASI on Magic Initiate to get booming blade does not seem too expensive, especially given the synergy with divine strike and the fact that you can also get find familiar (strong and thematic for a tempest cleric)

You are correct, dropping a maximized destructive wave or call lightning is devastating in combat. But...there will be many combats where you don't have a spare 5th level spell slot and you are concentrating on spirit guardians rather than call lightning. Clerics do not get any short rest spell slot recharge (unlike most other spell casters), but the channel divinity is a short rest recharge. I often found I had a spare channel divinity when I did not want to use a spell slot, and that made booming blade an ideal candidate.

Added to all that, booming blade just feels right, at least it did on my character.

[Gtdead]

I don't see where you are spending 2 ASI and a feat (3 ASI?)

It's 2 STR ASI and Magic Initiate. Assuming we optimize for melee. Otherwise well, I already posted the Gauntlets of Ogre Power alternative ;p

[Saggo]

Someone claimed that the melee damage was comparable to any Shield+1h build. I compared it against the 2 classes that most likely use such a build and proved it wrong. But the whole point is that Cleric DOESN'T NEED melee optimization to go into melee There is absolutely NO DOWNSIDE in using his ranged cantrips. He can just use SF or TtD and lose minimal Dpr compared to STR BB while spending his ASIs into stuff that is actually useful, like maxing WIS and CON and feats that help his Concentration.

Just switch all BB with TtD and see what I mean. At lvl 11, with TtD+SW+SG he deals 42.5, At lvl 17 49, and he is more likely to maintain concentration throughout the encounter, while being generally more tanky. Also if we consider hit chances, STR BB has lower hit chance with SW and SG throughout the whole progression, while the TtD cleric gains WIS boosts normally.

I said any number of builds, not any build, the implication is different. And melee Cleric compares favorably with a number of builds.

If someone wants to melee, it doesn't have to be the best option. You just want it to be good enough. Good enough is subjective, but having competitive DPR with (again) any number of similar builds is measurable. If someone doesn't feel like sinking in the opportunity cost and risk, by all means just be a caster, but regardless melee Cleric measures well. Or to put it another way, if you try hard enough, you're good enough to charge in the front lines and smack people in the head.

And you might be a prime target. Or they might just run around your aura instead of through it and let ranged try to break your Concentration. The purpose of control is to force a situation a certain direction, not hope the bad guys comply.

[Galadhrim]

It's 2 STR ASI and Magic Initiate. Assuming we optimize for melee. Otherwise well, I already posted the Gauntlets of Ogre Power alternative ;p

I was not and would not advocate for maxing str, even on a melee cleric, so I'm with you on that point. If you can find Gauntlets of Ogre Power, even better.

I think some of this has to do with what levels this game will be played, or maybe with the fact that I'm not usually interested in ultimate optimization but rather optimization within a concept. I tend to give advice based on game play from level 6-12 because those are the levels my games seem to always be in. The tempest cleric lends itself in theme and concept to a frontliner with a warhammer, busting heads. That picture can't be accomplished with sacred flame. I played this build in melee and a 16 str was just fine, but most important, I felt like the cleric of a thunder god when the opportunity came up.

[Gtdead]

I said any number of builds, not any build, the implication is different. And melee Cleric compares favorably with a number of builds.

If someone wants to melee, it doesn't have to be the best option. You just want it to be good enough. Good enough is subjective, but having competitive DPR with (again) any number of similar builds is measurable. If someone doesn't feel like sinking in the opportunity cost and risk, by all means just be a caster, but regardless melee Cleric measures well. Or to put it another way, if you try hard enough, you're good enough to charge in the front lines and smack people in the head.

Yes, he is comparable to classes that are in the same predicament as himself, trying to do something that the features don't really highlight.

Also the comparison with both SW and SG is heavily biased in favor of the Cleric. If you always have to use those spells, then you lock the character out of doing other stuff. If you are going to spend all your slots into SW and SG, when are you going to heal? Are you going to literally use heals only as a revive mechanism?

You have access to spells like Contagion, Banishment, Dispel, Death Ward, Sending, Prayer of Healing. Are you never going to use them just so you can be comparable in dmg output?

There is also the matter of preparation vs no preparation. You may have wasted a round casting SG while another has already attacked. Even if you do comparable damage, he will outdamage you. Provided that you have a pretty low Initiative, you may lose up to 2 turns in a fight.


And you might be a prime target. Or they might just run around your aura instead of through it and let ranged try to break your Concentration. The purpose of control is to force a situation a certain direction, not hope the bad guys comply.

Be that as it may, it doesn't help your argument at all. What edge does BB provide in the situation where melee enemies actively avoid you? You have to dive in and attack in melee. SG slows their speed. Which means that they will have trouble leaving the area anyway. Once you reach and attack, then BB has the advantage of the rider effect. However if the point is to not let them harm your wizard, then the result is achieved with or without BB.

Going ranged has certain advantages as well, you can hold down an area with SG, not having to chase the enemies around. It will result in less overall dpr, but it gets the job done.

[Biggstick]

The best action is wildly dependent on encounter (how many targets are there, you get one Concentration, casting a leveled spell every turn isn't efficient) and party composition (is there already a controller, already support, how many ranged vs melee are there, is there already sword & board). Attack doesn't have to be the best option or even better, it just has to be a good option and if built well it mechanically is. It's 2-6d8 at-will, with no resource cost, and control synergy with Spirit Guardians or light 1-4d8 AoE. Even, if there was a better spell to cast, that's not a poor choice or unviable.

As far as frontlining, with Aid you have the same or higher effective hit dice as a Fighter, the same potential 20+ AC, and still have the capability for War Caster or Shield Master (both, if you settle for 18/16/18). You can offset additional damage with self heals. True, you're behind in opportunity cost, but you parallel a Fighter more than but a handful of full casters.

And, as you've aptly pointed out, you can still fall back and provide support, control, and blasting. You're doing similar damage as other sword & board builds and you can still switch roles, mid-encounter if need be. A Fighter certainly doesn't have that flexibility.

If it matters, I've been playing Clerics a long time as well, and my melee Tempest for well over a year.

Agreed that the best action per turn per encounter is going to change based on the situation presented. And obviously you're not going to be casting a level-ed spell every turn, Sacred Flame is there for turns in which you'd like to easily contribute damage without much opportunity cost.

Regarding BB, I rarely actually see the move portion of the damage trigger. Honestly, I rarely see that go off, and I'm playing in games in which practically every Rogue has it. So for the at-will damage of BB, I'd only ever count the initial bit of damage on it, and consider the rider effect as a potential bonus. So that puts us at a 1d8 bonus at level 5, a 2d8 bonus at 8, 3d8 at 11, 4d8 at 14, and 5d8 at 17. The cost to gain BB is going to be either a multiclass that grants it, or a feat that does so. So yes, while using it doesn't cost any resources, it does cost you either Cleric progression or an ASI. What truly doesn't cost anything for the Cleric is Sacred Flame (or Toll the Dead if your DM allows the spell), and while it presents less of a damage progression, it still allows for you to do some ok at will damage both at range and at melee.

I will give you the AC bit, as both the Fighter and the Cleric can have 20 base AC with Plate and a Shield. For a Cleric to attempt to become more like a Fighter though, it costs spell slots (Aid for an HP boost, or Shield of Faith for an AC boost). So it is with a bit of opportunity cost (spells cast per day), they can be more like a Fighter. What I don't agree with is Shield Master. A Fighter spends a majority of it's turns making the Attack action. The Tempest Cleric that we're talking about here will spend most of it's turns taking the Cast a Spell action. This does include BB, as even though it requires an attack roll, it isn't the Attack action. You can't use the bonus action shove from Shield Master unless you're taking the Attack action. So a Cleric taking Shield Master is much worse then a Fighter taking Shield Master. Either way, I rarely see anyone taking the Shield Master feat. I'd actually love to play a primary martial-based around this now, even though Shove action on a medium sized creature starts to fall off in the later game.

One of the best parts of any Cleric is that they all have the ability to fall back and act as ranged support. In particular Tempest Clerics are especially good at it with spells like Shatter/Call Lightning and their Channel Divinity.

That's great to hear from another long-time Cleric Player! I'm curious, how hard does your DM press your group and their resources during the day? Do you find yourself running short on spell slots?

[Saggo]

Also the comparison with both SW and SG is heavily biased in favor of the Cleric. If you always have to use those spells, then you lock the character out of doing other stuff. If you are going to spend all your slots into SW and SG, when are you going to heal? Are you going to literally use heals only as a revive mechanism?

You have access to spells like Contagion, Banishment, Dispel, Death Ward, Sending, Prayer of Healing. Are you never going to use them just so you can be comparable in dmg output?

There is also the matter of preparation vs no preparation. You may have wasted a round casting SG while another has already attacked. Even if you do comparable damage, he will outdamage you. Provided that you have a pretty low Initiative, you may lose up to 2 turns in a fight.

These aren't concerns unique to melee Clerics.

You don't lose 2 turns. You lose half of 1. Without a significant resource use on the target's side, a creature that is in the aura the round you cast it will haven been affected by it by your next turn. It 1) is a minor loss when DPR is adjusted for the full encounter and your primary comparison is to PAM, 2) has potential for hitting and controlling multiple targets, correcting for minor DPR loss, and 3) still has the capacity of surpassing other builds.

Resource management problems don't preclude the fact that a Cleric can hold his own in melee, nor does a melee build preclude the capability to switch to support, control, or casting. Nor do the goal posts need to keep moving, I'm refuting the idea that it is never good enough or not a viable option, which isn't dependent on who is the most optimal.


Be that as it may, it doesn't help your argument at all. What edge does BB provide in the situation where melee enemies actively avoid you? You have to dive in and attack in melee. SG slows their speed. Which means that they will have trouble leaving the area anyway. Once you reach and attack, then BB has the advantage of the rider effect. However if the point is to not let them harm your wizard, then the result is achieved with or without BB.

Going ranged has certain advantages as well, you can hold down an area with SG, not having to chase the enemies around. It will result in less overall dpr, but it gets the job done.
Forcing a situation where a target has to spend resources if it's even able to avoid additional damage is always an edge, more so if you have 2 targets in the aura (now smart hostiles can't split up easily). But it's just extra synergy other builds can't do.

You're right though, Spell Sniper and Reach weapons are good variations of melee Clerics.


Regarding BB, I rarely actually see the move portion of the damage trigger. Honestly, I rarely see that go off, and I'm playing in games in which practically every Rogue has it. So for the at-will damage of BB, I'd only ever count the initial bit of damage on it, and consider the rider effect as a potential bonus. So that puts us at a 1d8 bonus at level 5, a 2d8 bonus at 8, 3d8 at 11, 4d8 at 14, and 5d8 at 17. The cost to gain BB is going to be either a multiclass that grants it, or a feat that does so. So yes, while using it doesn't cost any resources, it does cost you either Cleric progression or an ASI. What truly doesn't cost anything for the Cleric is Sacred Flame (or Toll the Dead if your DM allows the spell), and while it presents less of a damage progression, it still allows for you to do some ok at will damage both at range and at melee.
I'll make the distinction that I say resource cost for per turn or day resources (actions, spells, etc), and opportunity cost for build requirements (feats, ASIs, etc). In that way, BB has an opportunity cost, but in the adventuring day it has no resource cost. As for the cost you can also start High-Elf or Variant Half-elf, but there's a lot to be said for starting Sorcerer. Con Proficiency, both BB and GFB, and Shield spell, level 1 subclass feature, good stuff.

I don't include riders in most of my examples, it's easier to leave them as a little extra. 2d8-6d8 (level 5+, since that's what matters) is 1d8 for weapon, 1-3d8 for initial BB, and 0-2d8 for Divine Strike. BB is often the example (obvious pairing with Tempest), though GFB's rider is easier to use. But like I said, it just needs to be a good enough use of your action, which it is.


I will give you the AC bit, as both the Fighter and the Cleric can have 20 base AC with Plate and a Shield. For a Cleric to attempt to become more like a Fighter though, it costs spell slots (Aid for an HP boost, or Shield of Faith for an AC boost). So it is with a bit of opportunity cost (spells cast per day), they can be more like a Fighter. What I don't agree with is Shield Master. A Fighter spends a majority of it's turns making the Attack action. The Tempest Cleric that we're talking about here will spend most of it's turns taking the Cast a Spell action. This does include BB, as even though it requires an attack roll, it isn't the Attack action. You can't use the bonus action shove from Shield Master unless you're taking the Attack action. So a Cleric taking Shield Master is much worse then a Fighter taking Shield Master. Either way, I rarely see anyone taking the Shield Master feat. I'd actually love to play a primary martial-based around this now, even though Shove action on a medium sized creature starts to fall off in the later game.
Yeah, you need slots to match Fighter, but that's appropriate given what Cleric is. I generally prefer Aid for it's duration and no Concentration. I should be clear that Shield Master is for the defensive features. Shove is great and I've seen it put to good use, but the rest of the features shore up a weakness that Heavy Armor has: attacks that don't target AC.


One of the best parts of any Cleric is that they all have the ability to fall back and act as ranged support. In particular Tempest Clerics are especially good at it with spells like Shatter/Call Lightning and their Channel Divinity.
I agree, and it's one reason I'm a fan of Clerics. Regardless of melee, the flexiblity is always there


That's great to hear from another long-time Cleric Player! I'm curious, how hard does your DM press your group and their resources during the day? Do you find yourself running short on spell slots?
We have two clerics in our party and the second one is a more traditional support Cleric. I usually go in guns free with Aid, SW, and SG, Destructive Wrath when able, but will jump between roles as needed. We get a decent mix of the recommended 6 encounters but the DM tends to favor slightly fewer, slightly harder fights. Shorter days favor SW and SG, but harder fights eat into HP and other resources more and by extensions spells. My experience is that my previous caster Clerics are just as strapped for spells as my Tempest. Though I do push into combat aggressively, in large part due to the character personality, so I'm usually accepting more of the risk for the party. But as a Half-Orc, several times the DM tried to drop me and I came back to finish off the target.

I've had an enjoyable experience, even with the extra risk. Cleric has a lot of flexibility and the melee is mechanically sound.

[Gtdead]

Resource management problems don't preclude the fact that a Cleric can hold his own in melee, nor does a melee build preclude the capability to switch to support, control, or casting. Nor do the goal posts need to keep moving, I'm refuting the idea that it is never good enough or not a viable option, which isn't dependent on who is the most optimal.

No they don't preclude, but they diminish it. Anyway, perhaps I'm overestimating the opportunity cost of getting BB, probably because I consider it mainly redundant. I am however curious, what other builds you have in mind that the Cleric can compete against. Also just to avoid misunderstandings, I hardly consider SnB Fighter good enough to go and smack people in the head. I've played SnB characters and I generally favor a more annoying playstyle rather than trying to utilize my attack move.

[saucerhead]

In regards to your actual post, you should go Spell Sniper at 4 for Booming Blade. Go Warcaster at 8. Have a 16 Strength, use a Whip and Shield, and never get within 5' of an enemy. Use opportunity attacks on BB with your Whip (at 10'), and attack enemies over and around your allies with your 10' of reach. Play with this for a few levels, only to realize that you spend a majority of your combats utilizing Bless/Spirit Guardians/Banishment/Call Lightning (when outside) as your concentration spell. Realize that you're better off spending actions casting spells, and making sure you are able to maintain concentration on said spells (Dodge action). Put next ASI into Wisdom or Resilient Con. Put next ASI into whatever you didn't at 12. And then the same thing again at 16.

As a low level tempest cleric in a party of four, I am on the front line a lot. I've got the AC and hit points at this level, and while I might not be knocking the bad guys down, I can keep them busy till the barbarian or ranger does. I don't think I'll be up front after everyone gains some hit points on the next level and need to switch gears to range attacks.

I was thinking about spell sniper at 4th level with lightning lure, but it doesn't work because it doesn't require an attack roll, so what ranged attack cantrip would work? Ray of Frost?

[Master O'Laughs]

As a low level tempest cleric in a party of four, I am on the front line a lot. I've got the AC and hit points at this level, and while I might not be knocking the bad guys down, I can keep them busy till the barbarian or ranger does. I don't think I'll be up front after everyone gains some hit points on the next level and need to switch gears to range attacks.

I was thinking about spell sniper at 4th level with lightning lure, but it doesn't work because it doesn't require an attack roll, so what ranged attack cantrip would work? Ray of Frost?

Unless the ranged attack cantrip appears on the druid spell list, it is going to not as effective due to not using WIS as its attack roll. The spell you get from Spell Sniper is treated as a spell from the class you chose it from (Wiz=INT, Sor, Bard, War= CHA. CLER, DRU = WIS). The reason booming blade and green flame blade are typically mentioned it because they require an attack roll using your STR or DEX, not your casting stat.

You can feel free to pick whatever spell you want but from a mechanics standpoint, it would be unlikely to hit unless the casting stat for the class you pulled it from was high as well.

[saucerhead]

Unless the ranged attack cantrip appears on the druid spell list, it is going to not as effective due to not using WIS as its attack roll.

Good point. I overlooked that, but what does that leave for a ranged attack cantrip? Magic stone? Yikes that's bad.

[Master O'Laughs]

Good point. I overlooked that, but what does that leave for a ranged attack cantrip? Magic stone? Yikes that's bad.

Thorn whip. It isn't bad depending on what you are doing, i.e. If you are trying to keep baddies in your spirit guardians you can get your Scorpion, "Get Over Here" on. since it is a melee spell attack it doesn't (at 30'???) it ignores cover anyway I would believe.

[saucerhead]

Thorn whip. It isn't bad depending on what you are doing, i.e. If you are trying to keep baddies in your spirit guardians you can get your Scorpion, "Get Over Here" on. since it is a melee spell attack it doesn't (at 30'???) it ignores cover anyway I would believe.

I don't have spirit guardians yet, but look forward to it.
Thorn whip is kinda similar to lightning lure, but doesn't have the STR save. Nice. If I dragged the bad guy away from one of the fighters in our group, would it create an attack of opportunity? I wonder if that works with lightning knock back at 6th level?
Sorta off topic, sorry about that.
I'll have to decide which feat I want for my tempest cleric before too long.