Necropolitan, worth it?

[Westhart]

So, as the title suggests I was wondering if it was a decent template, and if so for what? Casters may benefit, and it probably hurts melee, but what do you all think?

[Necroticplague]

Not worth it. Opening yourself up to all the vulnerabilities of undead, and the massive loss in toughness that comes from both losing your CON score and the 10-HP buffer past 0 means your post-mortem life is likely to be unpleasantly short. And all you really get in return is a handful of immunities you could get other ways, and a situational lack of necessities (that can usually be easily dealt with, or that don't benefit unless the whole party has them).

[tyckspoon]

It's quite strong if you can convince your DM that there's a way to apply all the various 'undead you create are stronger' effects to yourself (Being created in a Desecrated area, Corpsecrafter feats, etc) and it opens up some potentially cheesy Undead options like getting yourself Spellstitched (because you get the spell like abilities, and the sucker who did the Spellstitching actually pays for them.) Or starting as a Venerable character and claiming that because Undead don't age you can keep the mental stats and discard the physical penalties. Also if you're doing pointbuy you can dump the crud out of your CON score/play something with a CON penalty and let it get wiped out to 'nonability' when you get converted.

Absent those, it's mostly a way to be Undead without having to pay ridiculous amounts of LA for it or trying to work out with your DM what the LA for being an Awakened Skeleton ought to be. Which is awesome if that's just the character concept you want to play, but it's not the most mechanically impressive thing.

[Celestia]

Well, if you're playing an elf wizard with 6 constitution, then going undead will significantly improve your hit point total. Not worth it for anyone who already has a high HD and/or constitution, though.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Unless you can cheese corpsecrafter bonuses onto yourself (or you really want an undead-only option), Tomb-tainted Soul is almost always better in my experience.

[Zaq]

The immunities are nice. The lack of CON is significantly less nice. The weaknesses that don't stem directly from lack of CON are mostly not a big deal unless your GM is specifically gunning for you. It's kind of a case-by-case thing whether the immunities are worth the lack of CON.

[Zanos]

At lower levels when immunities are more difficult to access, it's quite strong. There's no loss of HP really for casters, a d12 is the same average HP as a d4 and 18 con. Possible with 14 base and a +4 belt, but not likely on most casters until higher levels. At higher levels undead immunities are relatively easily acquired through gear or spells, so it isn't as good, and con bonus HP can get very high.

[JoshuaZ]

Also depends heavily on what class you are. Works better with a low level dread necromancer than many other classes because of the self-healing.

[Inevitability]

It's a mistake to think of necropolitian as something that doesn't do anything except give you undead immunities. Not only does it supply low-HD classes with considerably more hit points, it also allows you to just dump constitution at character creation, and therefore put more points in other scores.

Putting an 8 rather than a 14 in constitution, for example, allows you to increase one of your 16s to an 18. As specialization is generally a good thing in D&D, this will probably end up being more optimal than assigning a 14, benefitting from it for a few levels, then losing it to the template.

[thethird]

It combines strongly with human heritage

[Celestia]

It's a mistake to think of necropolitian as something that doesn't do anything except give you undead immunities. Not only does it supply low-HD classes with considerably more hit points, it also allows you to just dump constitution at character creation, and therefore put more points in other scores.

Putting an 8 rather than a 14 in constitution, for example, allows you to increase one of your 16s to an 18. As specialization is generally a good thing in D&D, this will probably end up being more optimal than assigning a 14, benefitting from it for a few levels, then losing it to the template.
You can also double up on that low Con by adding elf and unseelie fey. Then aging to venerable. Start with a 1 in Con and immediately drop it for undead. Sounds great to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Endarire]

Use the feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate to get your INT mod instead of your CON mod to HP. Be an INT-based character like a Psion or Wizard. Profit!

[Celestia]

Use the feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate to get your INT mod instead of your CON mod to HP. Be an INT-based character like a Psion or Wizard. Profit!
18 base intelligence + grey elf + venerable + necropolitan + faerie mysteries initiate = level 1 wizard with 18 HP

[Ashtagon]

I used to think undead politicians would turn away voters, but I suspect people's tolerance for weird politicians may be greater than mine.

Or did you mean necropolitan?

[weckar]

I used to think undead politicians would turn away voters, but I suspect people's tolerance for weird politicians may be greater than mine.

Or did you mean necropolitan?

Both. Certainly both.

Why DOESN'T 3.5 have a politician class??

[tadkins]

I used to think undead politicians would turn away voters, but I suspect people's tolerance for weird politicians may be greater than mine.

Or did you mean necropolitan?

I dunno, some of these politicians we have already look pretty undead to me. xD

[tiercel]

Why DOESN'T 3.5 have a politician class??

What, you mean bards?

Perform (Oratory)
Fascinate and Suggestion
Knowledge (Local) [laws, customs, traditions]
Bardic Knack (plus improvisation) lets them fake it in a wide variety of skills they actually know nothing about
Diplomancy to gain Fanatic followers
Bluff (and notably glibness)
...oh and Illusion and Enchantment magic

[tadkins]

What, you mean bards?

Perform (Oratory)
Fascinate and Suggestion
Knowledge (Local) [laws, customs, traditions]
Bardic Knack (plus improvisation) lets them fake it in a wide variety of skills they actually know nothing about
Diplomancy to gain Fanatic followers
Bluff (and notably glibness)
...oh and Illusion and Enchantment magic

But bards can't be lawful evil.

[weckar]

What, you mean bards?

Perform (Oratory)
Fascinate and Suggestion
Knowledge (Local) [laws, customs, traditions]
Bardic Knack (plus improvisation) lets them fake it in a wide variety of skills they actually know nothing about
Diplomancy to gain Fanatic followers
Bluff (and notably glibness)
...oh and Illusion and Enchantment magic

Touché...

... or should I say Parlé?

[ben-zayb]

Are necropoliticians those who practice necropolitics? That sounds more like an LE thing to do than an undead one. I could see the Drow practicing something like that

[Mordaedil]

Nobles from Dragonlance Campaign Setting book could service as politicians and is 3.5

[Westhart]

So it seems good if you can use X to Y to get something else for your HP, have a really bad Con score, or at lower levels where the immunities are great?

That's what I thought upon thinking about it. Any cases you could advocate anything not fitting the above still taking the template?

[weckar]

Bit of an edge case, but it's synergizes well if you wanted to be a poison expert without the Poison Use ability. Being practically immune to anything requiring a fortitude save and all that.

[heavyfuel]

Well, if you're playing an elf wizard with 6 constitution, then going undead will significantly improve your hit point total. Not worth it for anyone who already has a high HD and/or constitution, though.

Take the Pathetic flaw to get Con to 4! You get a feat!

[Zanos]

18 base intelligence + grey elf + venerable + necropolitan + faerie mysteries initiate = level 1 wizard with 18 HP
This will still tank your str and dex scores. I don't usually worry about carry capacity, but I would have to with 2 str. Not to mention the dex.

FMI is great, but in my experience is also a great way to get Dragon banned.

[Celestia]

This will still tank your str and dex scores. I don't usually worry about carry capacity, but I would have to with 2 str. Not to mention the dex.

FMI is great, but in my experience is also a great way to get Dragon banned.
Yeah, strength will be getting a total -10 on it, which sucks. Buy a donkey, I guess. Dex, though, will only be at -2. Remember: both elf and unseelie fey boost it. So, that's not too bad. And you could always stop at old instead of venerable to have a net +1 dex.

[Westhart]

Yeah, strength will be getting a total -10 on it, which sucks. Buy a donkey, I guess. Dex, though, will only be at -2. Remember: both elf and unseelie fey boost it. So, that's not too bad. And you could always stop at old instead of venerable to have a net +1 dex.

Wouldn't it be better to get the template then age you character? Wait, you can't even get the template on a level 1 can you? The game would have to start at least 2nd, in which case you'd technically be ECL 1... Since you lost a level you know?

[Elkad]

It's worth it as the DM. Optimize a turn check a bit and blast the wizard out of existence :)

[Celestia]

Wouldn't it be better to get the template then age you character? Wait, you can't even get the template on a level 1 can you? The game would have to start at least 2nd, in which case you'd technically be ECL 1... Since you lost a level you know?
Undead don't age and collect neither the associated penalties nor bonuses. Otherwise, that would be better.

[Westhart]

Undead don't age and collect neither the associated penalties nor bonuses.

Ah, my bad. Been reading too many threads were they were cheesing with it... Y'know, since they still acquire mental experience. Belay that then!

[Inevitability]

But bards can't be lawful evil.

They can be, they just can't take any more bard levels after becoming Lawful. Enter a good Prc and don't look back.

[Celestia]

Ah, my bad. Been reading too many threads were they were cheesing with it... Y'know, since they still acquire mental experience. Belay that then!
I could be misremembering, but I believe they address that in Libris Mortis by declaring that the minds of the undead are largely static and unchanging. They can still learn, but they can't grow. A thousand year old vampire will have the same personality as he did when he first turned centuries ago.

[Westhart]

I could be misremembering, but I believe they address that in Libris Mortis by declaring that the minds of the undead are largely static and unchanging. They can still learn, but they can't grow. A thousand year old vampire will have the same personality as he did when he first turned centuries ago.

Huh, I'll take your word for ti as I am letting my brother borrow that one. Makes sense though.... I guess.

[lbuttitta]

Yeah, strength will be getting a total -10 on it, which sucks. Buy a donkey, I guess. Dex, though, will only be at -2. Remember: both elf and unseelie fey boost it. So, that's not too bad. And you could always stop at old instead of venerable to have a net +1 dex.
It would be a funny character concept, though, to be an undead wizard who was unable to move. All sorts of great character-building opportunities!

[Soranar]

Basically, if your class has d6 or d4 hipoints with CHA synergy, it's not a bad choice.

d8 hitpoints and up would be better off with a dragonborn of bahamut warforged.

access to certain spells (animate dead gives you access to an undead that heals undead for 100gp, necrotic carnex I think)

an elan psion/erudite/ardent makes for an especially durable undead (due to their ability to trade damage for power points)

[Zanos]

Undead don't age and collect neither the associated penalties nor bonuses. Otherwise, that would be better.
Undead don't have any special rules about aging modifiers that I've seen.

[Thurbane]

Undead don't age and collect neither the associated penalties nor bonuses. Otherwise, that would be better.


Undead don't have any special rules about aging modifiers that I've seen.

There's apparently quite a bit of room for debate on that front: [3.5] Immortality and Undeath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527570)

[Zaq]

Don’t forget that CON affects Fort in addition to HP. Yes, you’re immune to Fort saves that don’t affect objects, but there are still Fort saves that do affect objects, and it tends to really suck to fail them. (Much like HP, though, this is definitely an early game / late game issue.)

[Endarire]

Remember, as an Undead creature, your CON becomes - for a modifier of +0. That's just how the game works.

[Segev]

But bards can't be lawful evil.

Are you implying politicians actually follow the law?

[ShurikVch]

I wonder: couldn't Necropolitan to become a decent grappler?
Undead is immune to nonlethal damage, very rarely enemy have IUS, and single natural attack still less dangerous than full attack of monster with claws and bite
Ravenous template (Undead-specific, Dragon #319) will give Improved Grab without extra LA or spending a feat slot

[Domar]

Don’t forget that CON affects Fort in addition to HP. Yes, you’re immune to Fort saves that don’t affect objects, but there are still Fort saves that do affect objects, and it tends to really suck to fail them. (Much like HP, though, this is definitely an early game / late game issue.)

Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind of Mind over Body (ToB). 3000 GP. 1/encounter (more often if you have a recovery method) spend an immediate action to make a Concetration check instead of a Fortitude save.

[tadkins]

Are you implying politicians actually follow the law?

Generally they use and manipulate it for their own gains.

[Segev]

Generally they use and manipulate it for their own gains.
So do Neutral Evil people. Even some Chaotic people do that; both just don’t mind being hypocrites about it.

[JNAProductions]

I wonder: couldn't Necropolitan to become a decent grappler?
Undead is immune to nonlethal damage, very rarely enemy have IUS, and single natural attack still less dangerous than full attack of monster with claws and bite
Ravenous template (Undead-specific, Dragon #319) will give Improved Grab without extra LA or spending a feat slot

Aren't natural attacks considered Light, and therefore can be used in a grapple?

[Snowbluff]

It combines strongly with human heritage

First of all, this. You basically lose all of the penalties because you count as humanoid instead, but you get all of the immunities as traits. XD

Necropolitan is good. Immunities are good. As said, it's a d4 + 18 con worth of HP. Furthermore you can buff your HP with other methods (Minor Shapeshift, Improved Toughness, Vigor power, etc).

[Caelestion]

How is a necropolitan human a "half-human or human-descended race"? They're simply undead humans, not half-orcs, half-elves etc.

[Celestia]

Also, you won't get undead immunities because the feat only gives you racial traits, not creature type traits. So you'll get some turn resistance and not much else.

Also also, the feat can only be taken at level one while necropolitan is an acquired template that cannot be taken until level 2, minimum.

[Necroticplague]

How is a necropolitan human a "half-human or human-descended race"? They're simply undead humans, not half-orcs, half-elves etc.
How is human not descended from other humans?

Also, you won't get undead immunities because the feat only gives you racial traits, not creature type traits. So you'll get some turn resistance and not much else.Are you sure about that?

You are treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision). You gain 4 additional skill points.In this case, you're type is undead.

Also also, the feat can only be taken at level one while necropolitan is an acquired template that cannot be taken until level 2, minimum.
Obviously. That's why you take Human heritage while you're still alive.

[Caelestion]

How is human not descended from other humans?
... Obviously. That's why you take Human heritage while you're still alive.

Even if you set aside the flagrant misreading of RAI (I don't have the book on-hand to read the sidebar on p150 as to which races are eligible for the feat), why exactly would a human take a feat to become more human?

[Celestia]

How is human not descended from other humans?
Are you sure about that?
In this case, you're type is undead.

Obviously. That's why you take Human heritage while you're still alive.
I submit that you are indeed correct. I did not recall the exact wording of the feat. This seems sound except for one problem: order. You necessarily take the feat before the template. Thus, the feat applies before the template. The feat turns you from a human into a more humanly human. Then the template applies and makes you undead. The feat does not apply forward and change you back into a human.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even if you set aside the flagrant misreading of RAI (I don't have the book on-hand to read the sidebar on p150 as to which races are eligible for the feat), why exactly would a human take a feat to become more human?Because he's undead; duh. :smallamused:

As far as the thread topic goes, it works out really well if you expend some build resources to capitalize on it. Human Heritage (or Human Blood) feat to negate most of the penalties for being undead, dumping your Con, maximizing your other stats using those points (especially Int), selecting an optimal age category to ensure you get the most out of your stats, using Int for HP, dumping small HD for d12s, being created using all of the undead-strengthening options you can, using tactics that make optimal use of your type(s), immunities (such as using poisons), and your ability to use negative energy as a source of healing, and you can be rather impressively powerful, even at low levels. High levels won't make you any less impressive if you play right, but the differences, despite still being just as extreme overall, tend to be dampened by the fact that higher levels tend to improve the leverage you can gain with optimization, so it's not necessarily as noticeable.

[edit]


I submit that you are indeed correct. I did not recall the exact wording of the feat. This seems sound except for one problem: order. You necessarily take the feat before the template. Thus, the feat applies before the template. The feat turns you from a human into a more humanly human. Then the template applies and makes you undead. The feat does not apply forward and change you back into a human.But you still have the feat, so its benefits still apply.

I prefer Human Blood; at least that way you gain additional skill points for taking it as a full-blooded human. Also, you can fluff it as something similar to the racial paragon classes. You are the best humanly human you can be.

[Caelestion]

I forgot that "it doesn't say you can't!" frequently comes highly recommended around here.

Besides, using d12s for HD is a feature of the undead type, not a trait.

[Necroticplague]

I submit that you are indeed correct. I did not recall the exact wording of the feat. This seems sound except for one problem: order. You necessarily take the feat before the template. Thus, the feat applies before the template. The feat turns you from a human into a more humanly human. Then the template applies and makes you undead. The feat does not apply forward and change you back into a human.As long as you still qualify for a feat (in this case, as long as you're still Human), you get the benefits. The benefit of this being that you're Humanoid(Human).


I forgot that "it doesn't say you can't!" frequently comes highly recommended around here.
Actually, that logic comes highly disrecommended, because why it's nonsense is very simple to show (It doesn't say humans can't shoot insta-deaths lazers out of there fingers at-will).


Besides, using d12s for HD is a feature of the undead type, not a trait.
Completely separate from the conversion to undeath, Necropolitan makes all your HD d12s (even your class HD, which simply having Undead Features wouldn't do).

[ShurikVch]

The main problem with both Human Heritage and Human Blood: they're both 1st-level-only feats; you can't undergone the Ritual of Crucimigration before you take the feat, and if you will use it later, it will negate the benefits of the feat...



Aren't natural attacks considered Light, and therefore can be used in a grapple?If You’re Grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling):
Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

[Caelestion]

As long as you still qualify for a feat (in this case, as long as you're still Human), you get the benefits. The benefit of this being that you're Humanoid(Human).

Well, even if you can manage to say with a straight face that the 1st-level-only feat is retroactive and explicitly changes your type back to Humanoid (Human) after becoming Necropolitan at 3rd-level or higher, then it also interferes with any undead-strengthening options, because you are treated as humanoid for adjudicating all effects, not just the ones that you wish to ignore.

[Boggartbae]

Savage Species has an order of operations for applying creature types through templates, and undead trumps everything, although Necropolitan is different than most undead templates in that it lets you retain subtypes that indicate kind, like human. I'm not sure if the human heritage feat would trump the template rules, but RAW I think it does, because it's more specific. Either way, I'm not seeing any benefit to be counted as human, since AFAIK it just gives you immunity to things that specifically target undead, like turn checks and the command undead spell, but still leaves you vulnerable to things like disintegrate.

As for the necropilitan template, It's pretty good if you can get specific undead options with it, such as the death master and eviscerator feats, for automatic frighten on a critical hit with no save. Maybe lion totem barbarian who dual wields kukri's? Idk.

[Necroticplague]

Well, even if you can manage to say with a straight face that the 1st-level-only feat is retroactive and explicitly changes your type back to Humanoid (Human) after becoming Necropolitan at 3rd-level or higher, It's not retroactive, it's continuous. Long as you have the feat and its prerequisites, you get the benefits. Which, in this case, is being Humanoid(Human).


then it also interferes with any undead-strengthening options, because you are treated as humanoid for adjudicating all effects, not just the ones that you wish to ignore.Indeed, you'll be immune to anything that strengthens undead, since you're Humanoid, and not Undead. However, since Human Heritage lets you keep Traits, you'll get the undead immunities (100% of why you'd want to be undead), while not being as vulnerable to anti-undead affects (which are more commong than anti-Humanoid. And anti-Humanoid is normally mind-affecting, which you're immune to).


Savage Species has an order of operations for applying creature types through templates, and undead trumps everything, although Necropolitan is different than most undead templates in that it lets you retain subtypes that indicate kind, like human. I'm not sure if the human heritage feat would trump the template rules, but RAW I think it does, because it's more specific.
1. The pyramid is descriptive, not prescriptive. Otherwise, templates that came out in that same book could not function (Incarnate Construct). Essentially, it's noting that there are a lot more templates that take you towards Undead than away from it, not making a rule that you can only go that way.
2. it's also defunct 3.0, and no longer present in 3.5.

[Caelestion]

It's not retroactive, it's continuous. Long as you have the feat and its prerequisites, you get the benefits. Which, in this case, is being Humanoid(Human).

And even if you could take that feat as a human (which I'm sure is an obvious abuse of RAI), as soon as you become a Necropolitan, you are no longer Humanoid (Human), but Undead (Augmented Humanoid). So, it still doesn't apply.

[Necroticplague]

And even if you could take that feat as a human (which I'm sure is an obvious abuse of RAI), as soon as you become a Necropolitan, you are no longer Humanoid (Human), but Undead (Augmented Humanoid).
And that's relevant......how? Human Heritage doesn't require you to be Humanoid for it to work. So you from being a Humanoid (Human) with Humanoid traits, to being a Humanoid (Human) with Undead traits.

[Caelestion]

Well, constantly telling me how you think it's supposed to work is not very helpful, especially if no one is going to quote from the sidebar on p150 of Races of Destiny, which apparently lists the eligible races for the Human Heritage feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A fun thing to do to confuse RAW all to hell is to go kobold in a game with flaws and take Human Blood/Human Heritage and Dragonwrought, then go necropolitan at level 2.

[edit]

Well, constantly telling me how you think it's supposed to work is not very helpful, especially if no one is going to quote from the sidebar on p150 of Races of Destiny, which apparently lists the eligible races for the Human Heritage feat.That is most definitely not an exhaustive list; it just can't be, given all of the permutations of character races out there. How about an anthropomorphic animal whose father was human? A tauric human? Planetouched? How about all the races that came out after RoD, or 3rd party races, or races from Dragon Magazine? How about the fact that there are lots of characters who are part-human even though their stats are otherwise no different from others of their race? An elf whose great-great grandfather was human (and whose great grandfather was a half-elf, and all the rest of his ancestors were elves) could take the Human Heritage or Human Blood feats just as easily as a half-elf could. After all, he's part-human, right? And I know there are half-dwarf/half-humans and half-giants in Athas (the latter of which is also in the XPH), and so on.

Humans can interbreed with just about anything, so if you can justify it fluff-wise, almost anything could be part-human enough to take the feats.

[Necroticplague]

Well, constantly telling me how you think it's supposed to work is not very helpful, especially if no one is going to quote from the sidebar on p150 of Races of Destiny, which apparently lists the eligible races for the Human Heritage feat.
1.Not seeing how that sidebar is of any relevance. That sidebar is talking about a variant (i.e, not default) rule where a half-dragon human is a humanoid(human), instead of a Dragon.
2.Even if we assume that list of things affected by that variant is somehow relevant, that list is in no way stated to be exhaustive.


A fun thing to do to confuse RAW all to hell is to go kobold in a game with flaws and take Human Blood/Human Heritage and Dragonwrought, then go necropolitan at level 2.
Kobolds aren't human-descended, last I checked.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Kobolds aren't human-descended, last I checked.There are half-kobolds in Dragon Magazine, I believe. See the above edit.

[Necroticplague]

There are half-kobolds in Dragon Magazine, I believe. See the above edit.
Human heritage's requirement is that you're of a human-descended Race, not that you're human-descended. If there's not enough for you to mechanically be of a relevant Race, (i.e, the 'elf with half-elf parentage in there'), there isn't enough for the feat to work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Human heritage's requirement is that you're of a human-descended Race, not that you're human-descended. If there's not enough for you to mechanically be of a relevant Race, (i.e, the 'elf with half-elf parentage in there'), there isn't enough for the feat to work.Human Blood is better anyway.

[Necroticplague]

Human Blood is better anyway.Easier to qualify for, but it doesn't have the useful type-changing benefit of Human Heritage.

[ADRB]

You could try and use the bonus feats acquired from taint in Heroes of Horror, I believe you'd get about three bonus feats from taint as an undead without suffering any major drawbacks to it. If that doesn't get you hit with a book, try also pledging yourself to an Elder Evil for another feat since you're probably evil anyway. That's potentially four delicious free bonus feats if your DM is insane enough to let it pass.

[Caelestion]

1.Not seeing how that sidebar is of any relevance.

I wouldn't know, as no one else has bothered to quote it, so using a RAW interpretation is rather mendacious.

[flare'90]

The darned feat, since quoting is hard:

HUMAN HERITAGE [RACIAL]
Your human heritage is more prominent than in others of
your kind.
Prerequisite: Half-human race or human-descended
race.
Benefit: You are treated as a humanoid with the human
subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you
are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid
and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a
humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case,
you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc
or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common
to all creatures of your original type (such as
darkvision).
You gain 4 additional skill points.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st
level.
See the Variant: Half-Humans and Human-
like Races sidebar, page 150, for more about
races eligible to select this feat.

And of course the sidebar at the end redirects you to the feat.

[Caelestion]

So the sidebar is useless, despite being explicitly referenced?

If humans were intended to be able to take the feat, why didn't the writer simply insert "human" into the requirements? It would have taken one word, yet it always surprises me just how stupid/careless people seem to think the writers/editors were when they think they see a free lunch.

[nolongerchaos]

Since Human Heritage requires 1st Level, personally, when I read "you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type," I have always assumed that to mean the type of creature used to apply for the feat, and therefore have never understood how or why one would gain the benefits of being undead, since Undead was never the character's original type (I suppose for the sake of argument one could acquire Dark Shuffle services after picking up the Necropolitan template at a low enough level to become level 1 afterwards, but I feel that is far too specific a circumstance to be assumed in standard play...).

As I see it, a living [human] half-elf gets to keep Low-light Vision while being treated as human. A necropolitan [human] half-elf... well it was originally a just half-elf, so it gets Low-light Vision from its original type, not the Darkvision from the non-orignal Undead type. In fact... you would seem to simply pop back to non-undead status having lost a level and gained... nothing, really.
Would anyone care to explain (respectfully) why this would not be the case? Is there something I'm missing that says you get to pick which type you treat as your original type, rather than the type for the race used to qualify for the feat?

Edit: example - the sidebar mentions a half-dragon, so I'll use that. So a 5th level half-dragon with Human Heritage becomes a 3rd level necropolitan. Its original Type seems to be Dragon, not Undead. How and/or why would it gain the benefits of undeath, particularly if Human Heritage promptly turns it's type back to Human, since it's original Type was Dragon? Is it not a now just a (somehow) living 3rd level necropolitan [Human] with the benefits of the Dragon type?

[ayvango]

The main problem with both Human Heritage and Human Blood: they're both 1st-level-only feats; you can't undergone the Ritual of Crucimigration before you take the feat, and if you will use it later, it will negate the benefits of the feat...


Take necropolitan. Drop to 1st level. DCFS the required feat. I personally prefer the Otherworldly over the Human Heritage. But it is a strong cheese. And requires tons of money for a low level character to pay for service.

[ayvango]

The immunities are nice.
But they are immunities only in name really. For each immunity there is a way to strip undead of it. Undead are unaffected by mind control, but could be tricked with hide from undead. Undead fears nothing. Except for a cleric rebuking it with no save. For every practical case there is a spell that works specifically against undead and overcomes it. Undead are immune to critical hits but some weapon properties and weapon crystals allows to deliver sneak attack with them. So getting true immunities in late game is worth its money. On low level you may experience problems with CON and necropolitan template tempts with easy solution. But in late game you have access to PAO which could easily grant you high enough CON which can be further enhanced with magic items or spells.

[thethird]

Would anyone care to explain (respectfully) why this would not be the case? Is there something I'm missing that says you get to pick which type you treat as your original type, rather than the type for the race used to qualify for the feat?

As I understand the rules feats provide a permanent benefit for the character. For example power attack provides you with the ability to use power attack. Feats don't usually give a one time only benefit. The description of human heritage is as follows.


You are treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).

Unless you lose the feat you still have the feat. And as long as you have the feat you benefit from the feat.

Now there might be some contention on Human Heritage continuously changing your type to human which is ancillary for this argument. The most important sentences on Human Heritage are the first. "You are treated as humanoid for the purpose of adjudicating all effects". While there might be ground to argue that you are not humanoid but undead after necropolitan (which I would contend) it is a moot point because those effects that would affect you as undead need to be able to affect you as humanoid.

Now as to type picking (i.e. "original" being humanoid, undead, or dragon (for half dragon)) I would maintain that since you don't lose the feat you don't lose the benefits. And your "original" type would be what your type would be if you didn't have the feat.

---

On Otherworldly, note that the wording for this feat is rather different.


You are a native outsider, not a humanoid.

Since you are attempting to not be an undead I would say there is more wiggle room for Otherworldly not working.

[nolongerchaos]

Now as to type picking (i.e. "original" being humanoid, undead, or dragon (for half dragon)) I would maintain that since you don't lose the feat you don't lose the benefits. And your "original" type would be what your type would be if you didn't have the feat.

I'm not contending that you'd lose the benefits of the feat, I simply don't think it logically follows that, in the case of the example above, for the purposes of Human Heritage the creature's original Type was Dragon, it gained the Necropolitan Template, so now it's original Type for the purposes of Human Heritage is Undead?

Undead is certainly the character's most recent (non-Humanoid) Type, and is probably the most beneficial, but to claim it is now the "original type" doesn't seem to flow with how the feat's actual benefits work. It seems like convenient cherry-picking picking to me to claim that a type gained from an acquired template suddenly counts as the creature's original type, especially in the case of a feat that needs to be selected at 1st level, and was therefore granting the benefits of a different type prior to acquiring said template.

[Zanos]

But they are immunities only in name really. For each immunity there is a way to strip undead of it. Undead are unaffected by mind control, but could be tricked with hide from undead. Undead fears nothing. Except for a cleric rebuking it with no save. For every practical case there is a spell that works specifically against undead and overcomes it. Undead are immune to critical hits but some weapon properties and weapon crystals allows to deliver sneak attack with them. So getting true immunities in late game is worth its money. On low level you may experience problems with CON and necropolitan template tempts with easy solution. But in late game you have access to PAO which could easily grant you high enough CON which can be further enhanced with magic items or spells.
Yes, but the things that undead are specifically vulnerable to are generally rare or difficult to acquire. If every enemy at level 3 has crystals of truedeath to bypass your crit immunity, you're just going to have the entire party rolling in cash.

And people have to actually know that you're undead in order to use undead specific things on you.

[ayvango]

I may be biassed since undead are the favourite mobs of my master, so I always prepared to meet one.

[Zaq]

But they are immunities only in name really. For each immunity there is a way to strip undead of it. Undead are unaffected by mind control, but could be tricked with hide from undead. Undead fears nothing. Except for a cleric rebuking it with no save. For every practical case there is a spell that works specifically against undead and overcomes it. Undead are immune to critical hits but some weapon properties and weapon crystals allows to deliver sneak attack with them. So getting true immunities in late game is worth its money. On low level you may experience problems with CON and necropolitan template tempts with easy solution. But in late game you have access to PAO which could easily grant you high enough CON which can be further enhanced with magic items or spells.

The big one is immune to Fort saves that don't affect objects. I know that I said above that it does really suck to fail against Fort saves that do affect objects, but you still get immunity to a lot with that one.

[TotallyNotEvil]

But they are immunities only in name really. For each immunity there is a way to strip undead of it. Undead are unaffected by mind control, but could be tricked with hide from undead. Undead fears nothing. Except for a cleric rebuking it with no save. For every practical case there is a spell that works specifically against undead and overcomes it. Undead are immune to critical hits but some weapon properties and weapon crystals allows to deliver sneak attack with them. So getting true immunities in late game is worth its money. On low level you may experience problems with CON and necropolitan template tempts with easy solution. But in late game you have access to PAO which could easily grant you high enough CON which can be further enhanced with magic items or spells.
You've... Sort of rebutted yourself? Yeah, there are some very specific things to bypass undead immunities, because undead are just that common a foe.

Doesn't make them easy to acquire, or ubiquotous.

Even at higher levels, it's pretty damn hard to boast all the immunities undeath gives you. People like to talk like high level characters are always under permanent Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Mindblank, Stonebody and who knows what the hell else, when that simply doesn't really happen.

You are going to shrug off so many nasty things it's not even funny. It's like every subsequent Immunity is there to block the most readily apparent strategy to deal with the previous one.

[Zanos]

The big one is immune to Fort saves that don't affect objects. I know that I said above that it does really suck to fail against Fort saves that do affect objects, but you still get immunity to a lot with that one.
Off the top of my head, disintegrate, glass strike, and being checked by high wind are the only things I can think of. The first two are pretty high level.

If you actually get glass strike cast on you it does suck something awful, but I've never seen that spell actually used. YMMV if your DM goes out of the way to target your high-ish level undead character.


Even at higher levels, it's pretty damn hard to boast all the immunities undeath gives you. People like to talk like high level characters are always under permanent Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Mindblank, Stonebody and who knows what the hell else, when that simply doesn't really happen.
Veil of Undeath is Wiz 8 and lasts 10min/level, and literally just gives you all the undead immunities. Mind blank is 24 hours. Death ward and FoM are a bit harder with just spells, but you can buy soulfire armor and a ring of freedom of movement, respectively. Or just PAO yourself into something with silly immunities permanently.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah, and all of the above options take significant resource investment, while are a necropolitan, you just are.

[ayvango]

Yeah, and all of the above options take significant resource investment, while are a necropolitan, you just are.
And every cleric could either turn or rebuke you. With little investment he could have about +7 HD turning improvement.

[tyckspoon]

And every cleric could either turn or rebuke you. With little investment he could have about +7 HD turning improvement.

Necropolitan comes with +2 Turn Resistance, and more is pretty cheap and largely available in higher quantities than turn-buffing items; you can buy a cloak for +4 and spend a feat for another +4, and that puts you at +10 effective HD for resisting turning. That should cover all but the most extreme Turning focused builds, considering the Turning chart only goes up to +4 - if you're losing to that, you're either against a hugely overleveled fight or your DM built something specifically to destroy you.

(One or the other of item or feat will probably suffice most times, as an at-level enemy cannot roll high enough to Turn you without special buffing at only +6 Turn Resistance.)

[Zanos]

Yeah, and all of the above options take significant resource investment, while are a necropolitan, you just are.
Yes, but those resources have more and more room to work as you level up. Hence my earlier comment that the undead immunities loss value at higher levels.

[Mordaedil]

But as an undead you get to live forever, which is meaningless in game terms, but probably invaluable from the character's point of view.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But as an undead you get to live forever, which is meaningless in game terms, but probably invaluable from the character's point of view.For a given value of "live."

In this case, |live| = -live.

Yes, that was a math pun.