Looking for help designing a Fighter Archetype 5e

[KiyHatarimaru]

So I’m trying to create a balanced archetype for a fighter. First and foremost, the main idea I’m trying to achieve is a one-handed finesse user that ends the game have 6 or more attacks a round without action surge. So primary gain is more Extra Attacks.

Some limiting factors I’ve started to come up with...
Must be wearing medium or lighter armor
Must be using ONLY a One-handed finesse weapon. So no duel wielding, no sword and board. So all archytpe features are only available while following this rule.
(Personal choice) Must be a non-human race. Something along the lines that the memorization, practice, and constant training needed for this class requires a life span longer then humans to master the footwork, blade work, and techniques needed to be this archetype. (I just hate human race. Too much 3.5 and 5e vHuman where the extra feat makes the race stronger then others for almost everything.)

The rest I’m not sure what to do for additional archetype features...

[GalacticAxekick]

Here's my take. The archetype has no clauses against Heavy armour, if only because it already disallows the best Strength weapons and because Strength is already underpowered. The archetype also has no clauses against humans, since the DM could themselves prohibit variant humans to solve that issue.

Nonetheless, it's an agile one-handed fighter who can make a grand total of six attacks by 20th level. That immense damage output is balanced by offering no combat features on top of the extra attacks: only combat features that compete with them, and utility features.

THE DUELIST

REMISE:
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you've developed a deft and relentless offense. When you take the Attack action and attack with a one-handed melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, and when you have neither a weapon nor a shield in your offhand, you can use a Bonus Action to attack with the same weapon as if you were two-weapon fighting.

(When you acquire this feature, it's only slightly stronger than normal two-weapon fighting. You're using a 1d8 rapier, longsword, or similar weapon rather than a 1d6 shortsword, scimitar or handaxe. In the longrun, the greatsword may still be stronger. I allow non-finesse weapons because I want Strength builds to be an option, even if Dex builds are optimal)

ATHLETIC CHARGE:
Starting at 7th level, you are develop an acrobatic style of combat involving incredible leaps and strides. Your high and long jump distances are doubled up to a maximum of your speed.

(To help Strength compete with Dex's Acrobatics, Sleight, Stealth, Dex Saves, Initiative, I've added a feature that amplifies Strength's contribution to jump distance. Again, I think Strength builds should be an option, even if Dex is optimal.)

PARRY AND LUNGE:
At 10th level, you learn to adopt a defensive stance when appropriate. When you have a one-handed melee weapon in one hand and neither a weapon nor a shield in your offhand, you can use a Bonus Action to grant yourself +2 AC until the start of your next turn. Alternatively, under these circumstances, you can use a Bonus Action to increase your weapon's reach by 5 feet until the start of your next turn.

(It would be dangerous to give the Duelist combat features on top of their many attacks, so instead I've made their combat features compete for their attacks. The +2 AC makes it as though they had a one-handed weapon and a shield, but preserves the benefits of a free hand. The +5 feet of reach makes the rapier the best Dex reach weapon in the game, or lets longswords and such function as emergency reach weapons. Interestingly, it gives the whip 15 feet of reach!)

ACROBATIC CHARGE
Starting at 15th level, you master an acrobatic style that takes full advantage of your free hand and deft weapon. You gain climbing and swimming speeds equal to your walking speed when you have at least one empty hand.

(Most fighters get a weak combat feature at 10th level. This Fighter is going to become very strong, so it doesn't need it. It does need options besides "ata)

IMPROVED REMISE
At 18th level, when you use the Remise Bonus Action, you can make two attacks rather than one.

(That 6th attack you wanted.)

[KiyHatarimaru]

Here's my take. The archetype has no clauses against Heavy armour, if only because it already disallows the best Strength weapons and because Strength is already underpowered. The archetype also has no clauses against humans, since the DM could themselves prohibit variant humans to solve that issue.

Nonetheless, it's an agile one-handed fighter who can make a grand total of six attacks by 20th level. That immense damage output is balanced by offering no combat features on top of the extra attacks: only combat features that compete with them, and utility features.

THE DUELIST

REMISE:
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you've developed a deft and relentless offense. When you take the Attack action and attack with a one-handed melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, and when you have neither a weapon nor a shield in your offhand, you can use a Bonus Action to attack with the same weapon as if you were two-weapon fighting.

(When you acquire this feature, it's only slightly stronger than normal two-weapon fighting. You're using a 1d8 rapier, longsword, or similar weapon rather than a 1d6 shortsword, scimitar or handaxe. In the longrun, the greatsword may still be stronger. I allow non-finesse weapons because I want Strength builds to be an option, even if Dex builds are optimal)

ATHLETIC CHARGE:
Starting at 7th level, you are develop an acrobatic style of combat involving incredible leaps and strides. Your high and long jump distances are doubled up to a maximum of your speed.

(To help Strength compete with Dex's Acrobatics, Sleight, Stealth, Dex Saves, Initiative, I've added a feature that amplifies Strength's contribution to jump distance. Again, I think Strength builds should be an option, even if Dex is optimal.)

PARRY AND LUNGE:
At 10th level, you learn to adopt a defensive stance when appropriate. When you have a one-handed melee weapon in one hand and neither a weapon nor a shield in your offhand, you can use a Bonus Action to grant yourself +2 AC until the start of your next turn. Alternatively, under these circumstances, you can use a Bonus Action to increase your weapon's reach by 5 feet until the start of your next turn.

(It would be dangerous to give the Duelist combat features on top of their many attacks, so instead I've made their combat features compete for their attacks. The +2 AC makes it as though they had a one-handed weapon and a shield, but preserves the benefits of a free hand. The +5 feet of reach makes the rapier the best Dex reach weapon in the game, or lets longswords and such function as emergency reach weapons. Interestingly, it gives the whip 15 feet of reach!)

ACROBATIC CHARGE
Starting at 15th level, you master an acrobatic style that takes full advantage of your free hand and deft weapon. You gain climbing and swimming speeds equal to your walking speed when you have at least one empty hand.

(Most fighters get a weak combat feature at 10th level. This Fighter is going to become very strong, so it doesn't need it. It does need options besides "ata)

IMPROVED REMISE
At 18th level, when you use the Remise Bonus Action, you can make two attacks rather than one.

(That 6th attack you wanted.)



In a way I see what you’re saying but also it’s hard to see it when a strength fighter can go Heavy Weapon, great sword, and great weapon master or the old sentinel pole arm build. 4 Attacks at 20 base making a total of 8D6+40+20 with the ability to rerolls a 1 on the dice for damage. That’s all without a single archetype. Add in champion for 18-20 crits, and a second fighting style you get more DPR and possibly even AC then any Dex build.

The attacks per round are to help give a dex fighter barely a chance against a strength fighter also for a fun flavorful option to be a good melee dex DPR fighter. So the 6 Attacks would net a 6D8+12+30... Definitely nothing to scoff at, but still an average below the base damage of the DPR build strength fighter. Actually it’s max damage if all attacks hit only barely beats the base minimum of the strength fighters 76 base damage by 4. That’s accounting for great weapon almost guaranteeing you have one damage die at 3 or higher every attack.

[GalacticAxekick]

So if I understand, the comparison of my archetype (built for Dex) vs a great weapon fighting Champion or Battle Master would go as such before feats:
Equal damage, roughly speaking
Con: Lower AC (17 instead of 18) hurts defense
Con: Poorer Athletics limits exploration
Pro: Better Dex saves help defense
Pro: Better Acrobatics, Sleight and Stealth help exploration
Trades social/exploration features like Remarkable Athlete and Know Your Enemy for the two Charge features. About equal?

I think that's fair.

Building my archetype for Strength, you get that 18 AC and lose the Dex save improvement. You get better Athletics and much longer jumps but lose Acrobatics, Sleight and Stealth. Still fair, I think.

It's just the Great Weapon Fighting, Sentinel and Polearm Master feats that throws things in favour of Strength. In which case, why not write some feats for a finesse-based melee combatant? The only feat exclusive to that niche is Defensive Duelist.

[Submortimer]

Speaking to 20th level, assuming no magic items, full plate, and maxed strength:

Greatsword w/ GWM: 8d6+20+40 (88 avg), +6 to hit. 18 AC
Polearm w/ PAM: 4d10+1d4+25 (49.5), +11 to hit. 18 AC
Duelist w/ Dueling: 6d8+30+12 (69 avg), +11 to hit. 18 AC

The problem I see is that there isn't really any benefit to going Dex with this subclass; it's best utilized by a Full plate strength fighter. Yes, a Dex fighter can get defensive duelist, but he will constantly have a lower AC.

[GalacticAxekick]

A better save, a wider range of skills and higher initiative aren't benefits?

[Submortimer]

A better save, a wider range of skills and higher initiative aren't benefits?

Only slightly, and stuff that can be picked up by feats after you max out strength (since there aren't really feats aside from Defensive Duelist that support this build).

What I mean is that there aren't any synergistic effects with this build that would suggest dexterity as a good option:



Remise: Doesn't require a finesse weapon (and, mechanically, there is no benefit to one-handing a longsword over using a rapier, in either a strength or dex build)
Athletic Charge: Multiplies your jump distance, but that keys off strength. This ability actually encourages you to increase your strength as much as possible.
Parry and Lunge: Doesn't key off an ability
Acrobatic Charge: Doesn't key off an ability, and swim and climb checks are handled under Athletics. Remember, having a Swim or Climb speed does not mean you don't have to make Swim or Climb checks, it simply means you can move in that fashion faster.
Improved Remise: Again, doesn't require a finesse weapon.

[GalacticAxekick]

After Remise closes the damage gap between Dex and Strength, the difference is Dex saves, three skills and initiative vs Strength’s +1 AC and one skill. That favours Dex, not by synergizing with it, but by neutering the competition.

To compensate, Athletic Charge synergizes with Strength. The end result is meant to be an archetype that keeps options open to player.

Yeah, a Strength character could improve Dex saves, skills and initiative with feats. That would give them edge. But at the same time, the Dex character could take feats of their own or improve a score like Con. Feats don’t throw the balance either way in my opinion.

[Submortimer]

Just wanted to get back to OP here, so he can understand a few things.


So I’m trying to create a balanced archetype for a fighter. First and foremost, the main idea I’m trying to achieve is a one-handed finesse user that ends the game have 6 or more attacks a round without action surge. So primary gain is more Extra Attacks.


6 or more attacks using only the attack action will not happen, and should not happen, no way no how. The static damage boosts alone would make this vastly OP, not to mention extra damage dice and any other effects you might potentially gain (Flame Tongue sword, hex or hunter's Mark, etc).

Extra attacks via a bonus action is alright, but just allowing that from the get go with no restrictions is far too strong. It is essentially handing the fighter a scimitars of speed at level 3.



Some limiting factors I’ve started to come up with...
Must be wearing medium or lighter armor
Must be using ONLY a One-handed finesse weapon. So no duel wielding, no sword and board. So all archytpe features are only available while following this rule.


That's not really how 5e design works, but we can fit part of that in there. Some features will function all the time, but others will function only under these circumstances.



(Personal choice) Must be a non-human race. Something along the lines that the memorization, practice, and constant training needed for this class requires a life span longer then humans to master the footwork, blade work, and techniques needed to be this archetype. (I just hate human race. Too much 3.5 and 5e vHuman where the extra feat makes the race stronger then others for almost everything.)


Personal choice is fine, but, as a rule, 5e doesn't offer many restrictions to who can take what class. Even Bladesinger and Battlerager have sidebars suggesting that DMs are more than able to drop the race restrictions.



The rest I’m not sure what to do for additional archetype features...

Well, that's why we're here!


so, here's my take on this idea:

Fencer

Fencing
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you've developed a deft and relentless fighting style. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a single Finesse weapon and you aren't wearing heavy armor or wielding a shield.



Remise. When you take the attack action with a finesse weapon on your turn, you can make one attack with that weapon as a bonus action. You do not add your strength or dexterity modifier to the damage of this attack.
Parry. You can adopt a defensive stance as a bonus action, granting yourself +2 AC until the start of your next turn.
Lunge. You can increase the reach of your weapon by 5 feet until the start of your next turn.


This is an ability similar to Martial Arts.

At 5th level Remise + Dueling style (avg 29.5 damage) is slightly better damage wise than TWF + TWF Style and Dual wielder (28.5 damage) while still using the bonus action, which seems alright to me. TWF will have an inherent AC bonus over the competition.
Parry is the equivalent of using your bonus action to pick up a shield, but lets you have additional options.
Lunge is mechanically weaker than just using a polearm, but again, options.


Fencer’s Footwork
Starting at 7th level, you learn to move your feet as quickly and as easily as you move your blade. Your movement speed increases by 10 feet, and moving through difficult terrain doesn’t cost you extra movement.

This is about half of the mobility feat, except that the Rough terrain movement doesn't require the Dash action, which makes it a little better. There is still benefit to taking the Mobile feat even with this, though.

Feint
At 10th level, you learn to use your bladework to mask your true tactics. When a creature attacks you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to grant them advantage on the attack roll. If you do, you gain advantage on all melee attacks against that creature until the end of your next turn.

Big risk for an even bigger payoff. Feinting is an inherent part of fencing as a sport and a combat style, and should be in here.

Riposte
Starting at 15th level, when a creature attacks you with a melee attack and misses, you can use your reaction to make a single melee weapon attack against that creature.


Clean, simple, good benefit for a reaction.

Master’s Remise
At 18th level, when you use the Remise ability, you can make two melee attacks instead of one.

And there's your 6th attack. Note, you still don't add your Dex or Strength modifier to this attack either.


All told you have a pretty good spread across the levels:

Remise + Dueling



3rd:
2d8+7
Avg: 16


5th:
3d8+16
Avg: 29.5


11th:
4d8+23
Avg: 41


20th:
6d8+32
Avg: 59



TWF + TWF Style + Dueling



3rd:
2d8+10
Avg: 19


5th:
3d8+15
Avg: 28.5


11th:
4d8+20
Avg: 38


20th:
5d8+25
Avg: 47.5



Polearm + PAM + GWF


3rd:
1d10+1d4+10
Avg: 18


5th:
2d10+1d4+15
Avg: 28.5


11th:
3d10+1d4+20
Avg: 39


20th:
4d10+1d4+25
Avg: 49.5



Mind you, TWF has kinda always been mechanically inferior to some of the other options available, and PAM can be boosted by GWM for another potential 50 damage a round.