All saving throws automatically fail. How does this change gameplay and the world?

[Thealtruistorc]

Saving Throws have always struck me as a feature which exists only in games, reflecting a level of unpredictable resilience rarely seen in literature or film. They create an important distinction, enabling people to throw off instadeath spells and ignore poisons and diseases because they are just that tough. Countless examples exist of how they throw a wrench in conventions of fantasy, ranging from the anticlimax of Haleo and Julelan to the warped power dynamic of Harry Potter and the Natural 20.

This leads me to wonder what would happen if all saving throws in 3.5 Automatically failed. What tactics would become much more or much less useful? What kinds of spells and abilities would players be carrying around much more frequently? This isn't really for a game so much as it is for a thought experiment.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Two words: Mind Control.

[ryu]

Two words: Mind Control.

Three words Protection from Evil. But no seriously immunities, initiative optimization, action generation, and effect range become even more important than they already were. Low tier classes are even more trash because they have no save effects for the most part while everyone else gets even more terrifying.

[Crake]

Assassins become much more deadly. Non-death-effect save or die? Uncanny dodge would help while you're conscious, but while asleep, the only method of survival would be total critical hit immunity, which is either type based and can be overcome, or magic based and can be dispelled, but then, the same could be said about immunity to death effects through other means.

Many spells would need to either be relegated to epic magic, or significantly increased in level, as the spells are balanced around offering a save. The irresistible metamagic that removes the save in kingdoms of kalamar is +6 spell level, so consider that.

[AvatarVecna]

You've just made it easier for casters to dominate the game. Sure, okay, spells that didn't offer a save to begin with now probably aren't worth casting, but who cares because every spell in existence is now just soooooo much better. There's very few non-caster abilities that have saves - very few class abilities, and a decent number of feats - but all of them have extreme per-day usage limits. The few examples I'm aware of that are vaguely decent are Monk Stunning Fist (vaguely decent only because they get a lot more uses than most anybody else), Coup De Grace (which involves an auto-crit and then a save vs instant death based on the damage, so now you can slice throats with a dagger and no other damage and still kill a demigod or whatever), and massive damage (which also involves a save to avoid instant death). I guess that means that ubercharge builds are now less necessary, since one attack dealing at least 50 damage is all you need to one-round-kill most things? I guess you'd want more than one attack, to kill more than one thing per round though.

Also, you've made basic evasion worthless, so there's that. Also also, any class that's "balanced" against they others by getting more than one good save (or even *gasp* all three is now even underperforming by the designer's basement-floor standards. But hey, it's not like monk was already one of the worst classes, and now they have guaranteed stuns with their fists, assuming they don't miss and are attacking a creature type that isn't immune to stunning, so what are they complaining about? Oh what's that, monks missing their attacks is already a memetic joke in the community, well how about that.

With this change, you have - at bare minimum - made most every single Save-Or-Suck, Save-Or-Die, and Save-Or-Hurt spell in the game (otherwise known as the vast majority of combat spells) 5% better than it already was. And that's assuming they had basically no chance to make the save in the first place. More than likely, you've made all those spells ~30% better on average, or more.


Many spells would need to either be relegated to epic magic, or significantly increased in level, as the spells are balanced around offering a save. The irresistible metamagic that removes the save in kingdoms of kalamar is +6 spell level, so consider that.

I could've sworn it was only +4. :smallconfused:

[Luccan]

Well, Elves are a lot more powerful now. Sleep is a first level spell and elves are immune to it. Just send in a strike team with a low level Wizard, put a castle to sleep and kill everyone. Dwarves are worse off: Con is no longer for anything but concentration and hit points. They lose out on two racial bonuses to saves. Elves do to, actually, for saves vs. charms. Gnomes also lose out, but then lose out again because their racial bonus to illusion DCs no longer matters. Halflings suck, most of their useful racial abilities are save bonuses. Also, almost every adventuring party dies in their first encounter with any type of magic-using enemy with a SoD or SoS spell. Unless they're prepared, which I guess in such a world any adventuring party would be. Tons more changes, some mentioned above, but basically it makes staying alive not necessarily harder, just more of a time and resource investment.

But I'm going to disagree with the assertion that fiction doesn't have saving throws. Maybe not the same saving throws for similar effects, but what about throwing off mind control? Happens all the time in fiction, is that not a will save? Jumping away from an explosion and thus not dying or getting behind something fast enough isn't a reflex save? Just toughing something out despite the fact that it should kill you can never be a fortitude save?

[Seto]

Poison becomes worth using!

[Endarire]

Unit death becomes a lot more common. Slay living, phantasmal killer, etc. just outright kill people.

Immunities aside, lower-level effects just work. Go first, cast your spell/manifest your power to disable your opposition, and you win. They just can't resist grease, glitterdust, slow, etc.

[skunk3]

While I understand where the OP is going, I'd never want to play a game like that. It would be way too cutthroat and short-lived. Getting a character up to a respectable level would be a matter of luck, and kinda like how the top 1% controls the majority of the wealth (in the U.S. at least), it would be kinda like that in game. The strong or lucky would continue to get stronger and have an overwhelming advantage over everyone else. I especially wouldn't like this because I tend to spend lots of money making sure my characters DON'T fail saving throws. I make sure my resistance is as high as possible from items, ioun stones, luck stone, empyreal armor / shield enhancement, etc. In my eyes, saving throws are arguably even more important than armor class.

[Fizban]

My immediate reaction is straight for the snark, "Well we all know that save-or-lose is already the only thing that matters and any amount of optimization means it never fails so nothing changes right?" But even the people who think that's how it works will agree that removing saves is basically the hugest deal.

The game already expects you to fail a lot more saves than people give it credit for, but there are also tons of things it absolutely expects you to save against almost every time. Dragonfear and dragonbreath eventually reach ridiculous save DCs and you're expected to just eat the shaken penalty and be immune to the energy damage. Meanwhile if you take a look at the DCs on the 'ol petrifying or insta-death gaze attacks, they're not all that threatening to many characters even if you don't avert your eyes.

So bottom line is that just because saving throws are a widely used mechanic, doesn't mean they're all the same thing.

How would it affect play? First I'd expect a massive drop-off in people actually considering playing in that game, because it's such a staggeringly obviously bad idea. Either the players are allowed to build PCs immune to everything, or the game requires a monumental amount of trust in the DM to never actually use any auto-lose abilities without straight up telling the party "This area will auto-kill you, go around." If the DM isn't telling people that, it sounds like a game of Gygaxian screw-overs, where you have a ridiculously convoluted door-opening procedure in an attempt to avoid insta-death and inevitably get killed by poison on an unassuming patch of wall or something.

[Peat]

Nobody ever dips Paladin ever again.

Going first becomes even more important.

That and it becomes trendy for everyone in the party to be able to heal in some way, shape or form.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Three words Protection from Evil.How many creatures have access to that or a related spell? The percentage is very, very small. And all it takes is a single arcane caster of almost any level with a desire to use the right compulsion spell to take over entire countries with no resistance at all.

So basically the same as now, only it's even easier.

Immunities become overwhelmingly important for survival in comparison to now, and the ability to negate being targeted vastly increases in necessity. Full concealment and cover are now total must-haves. Say hello, tinfoil hat!

[Jack_Simth]

1) The game is much more rocket tag... but the rockets are much faster (can't get out of the way nearly as easily)
2) Casters win more (they're already top-line characters, now there's much less defense that does NOT involve magic)
3) Initiative is even more important.
4) Immediate action abilities are even more useful (relatively speaking).
5) Everybody dies to the first sniffle.
6) Critters with area effect gaze attacks are much nastier (see the Medusa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/medusa.htm) for an example - Fort DC 15 at 7th isn't so bad for that front-line fighter with a +5 class-based save, probably a +3 resistance item, and likely +3 or more from Con... he needs a 4, so there's good odds he'll slice the medusa in half before the gaze matters... until you make this change)

Also... yeah, throwing off magic and stuff shows up a lot in fiction. Cracking mind control, realizing something's an illusion, recovering from illnesses, getting out of the way of explosions....

[Eldan]

So, sleep and a set of brass knuckles and a dagger kills most low level things automatically. For higher levels, you need hold person or hold monster. Yay.

Things are either immune or they are dead. Initiative is now pretty much the only stat that's important. That and spellcasting.

[Fizban]

Also... yeah, throwing off magic and stuff shows up a lot in fiction. Cracking mind control,
In fact that's one of the things that annoys me most about DnD mind control: I don't think I've ever seen a story where you couldn't throw off mind control with a strong enough will/motivation/etc. That's not the initial grab either- people get mind controlled, then throw it off later, basically as a rule. Not so in DnD: you fail the initial save (or two saves with Slippery Mind), and you're caught.

Dominate Person actually does have this out, except I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually read it that way. The extra save when ordered to do something against their nature always seems to be run as "resist this particular action," thanks to the next line that says self-destructive orders are not carried out, which people take to imply that the previous sentence only refers to carrying out a particular action, when it actually just says you get a new save with a +2 bonus. And the save entry is negate, not partial. And of course Charms actually have a whole bevy of caveats and checks to force people to do things which are ignored all the time.

But even if Dominate and Charm are being run properly, Suggestion has no excuse. One failed save and you're stuck following one "reasonably worded" command for the next bajillion hours. So annoying.

[CharonsHelper]

The fantasy stories which are the equivalent of "always failing saving throws" have other defences against such magical attacks.

Many of them have magic be much slower.

Harry Potter has defensive magic which is faster than the most potent attacks. An RPG based out it would likely have a dueling system like a magical Riddle of Steel.

I don't see it as any different from "first time you're stabbed in the neck is deadly" as an excuse to drop everyone to 5 HP.

[Hyperversum]

The first I have thought is simply that wins who acts first. Which is already true, but it would become literal.

Hella, some things are balanced around Saving Throws being a thing. That's why in-universe mages of Harry Potter could probably defeat in a bunch of them a whole army of commoners (how the hell are they called in english? I am italian, never read HP in english) because they have no defense against magic.

[Mr Adventurer]

People fall into pits a lot more often.

Spell Resistance becomes actually useful?

[Luccan]

The first I have thought is simply that wins who acts first. Which is already true, but it would become literal.

Hella, some things are balanced around Saving Throws being a thing. That's why in-universe mages of Harry Potter could probably defeat in a bunch of them a whole army of commoners (how the hell are they called in english? I am italian, never read HP in english) because they have no defense against magic.

If you mean non-magical people in Harry Potter, they're called muggles. As far as I'm aware, it's a made up word.

[Telonius]

Any mountains over 15,000 feet in height are uninhabited. ("After each 6-hour period a character spends at an altitude of over 15,000 feet, he must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1 point of damage to all ability scores.")

Forest fires knock out everything. ("Forest fires naturally produce a great deal of smoke. A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.")

Fire in general is deadly; short of jumping in a lake, there is no way to put it out. ("A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.")

Flying creatures crash more often. ("If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet.")

Anything that deals 50 points of damage or more kills the target, thanks to Massive Damage. Constitution becomes a much less useful stat, deities have to look over their shoulder a lot more often, Rocket Tag intensifies.

[Segev]

While this would still not be good for balance, and makes casters still more powerful than they already are, a better way to simulate what you tend to see in fiction would be to allow casters, upon a successful save by one or more of their targets (at least, for save/lose effects), to continue concentrating on the spell as their standard action next round to force a new save.

This way, you can have the sleep effect that takes longer to affect some, as long as the caster keeps trying to push it. Or a charm person spell that might take a few rounds to really worm its way into a strong-willed target's mind. Probably shouldn't have that for most reflex saves, though, as they tend to really represent one-and-done effects (e.g. half damage from fireball). Having those damage effects persist would be wonky.