Thoughts on Paragon boss monsters?

[Sivarias]

So I've run into a design issue in 5e, namely boss monster action economy.

Furthermore there don't seem to be any kind of design guidelines for lair or legendary actions.

In solution I found Angry DM's paragon monsters. I'd link but I'm on mobile at the doc. Essentially you make to monsters and jam them into the same body so that they have multiple turns. Once an hp threshold is reached they lose a turn.

On paper it seems clean. In practice one of my old players hated it because WotC never play tested it.

Furthermore I expected them to walk into the fight with a cleric who can buff, two rogues, a fighter, an OP as heck ranger. I was expecting them to have a damage output of 60+ a round.

Sadly they were down a rogue and out of spell slots. So it was damn near a tpk. The fighter ended up striking the finishing blow at 4hp. (Thank god for DR).

I did most of the DM things. Fudged rolls in their favor (monster kept critting). Portioned mon HP due to lack of party members.

Was this an anomaly? Or is the Paragon system more broken than immediately apparent?

How does the playground make actual difficult boss fights.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So I've run into a design issue in 5e, namely boss monster action economy.

Furthermore there don't seem to be any kind of design guidelines for lair or legendary actions.

In solution I found Angry DM's paragon monsters. I'd link but I'm on mobile at the doc. Essentially you make to monsters and jam them into the same body so that they have multiple turns. Once an hp threshold is reached they lose a turn.

On paper it seems clean. In practice one of my old players hated it because WotC never play tested it.

Furthermore I expected them to walk into the fight with a cleric who can buff, two rogues, a fighter, an OP as heck ranger. I was expecting them to have a damage output of 60+ a round.

Sadly they were down a rogue and out of spell slots. So it was damn near a tpk. The fighter ended up striking the finishing blow at 4hp. (Thank god for DR).

I did most of the DM things. Fudged rolls in their favor (monster kept critting). Portioned mon HP due to lack of party members.

Was this an anomaly? Or is the Paragon system more broken than immediately apparent?

How does the playground make actual difficult boss fights.

Sadly, solo monster encounters don't work. They never have worked, not in any edition. Action economy is that strong--legendary and lair actions help but aren't enough. So I just don't use them. I like 4e's minions--low HP creatures that get popped by any hit/failed save but still can do damage. That allows a controllable mob of creatures for the AoE types to go nuts on but that aren't a significant threat by themselves.

[LeonBH]

I once threw a L20 Shadow Sorc/Oathbreaker Paladin boss at a L13 party. He had no legendary resistances and legendary actions, but he used Spell Points.

The party killed him eventually, but not before dropping almost everyone in the party at least once with his Quickened Fireballs. By the time the Sorcadin dropped to ~10 HP, one of the players started calling to retreat. I forgot to use Lay on Hands.

Another time, I threw a L14 Illusionist Wizard who had precast Mirage Arcane at them, also using Spell Points. I scared the party really good with the Mirage Arcane plus Malleable Illusions combination.

In summary, I find that using "monsters" with class levels works wonders in counteracting action economy.

[Sivarias]

What do you mean by spell points. Like the classic spell slit change or is it different for 5e?

[Unoriginal]

So I've run into a design issue in 5e, namely boss monster action economy.

Furthermore there don't seem to be any kind of design guidelines for lair or legendary actions.

In solution I found Angry DM's paragon monsters. I'd link but I'm on mobile at the doc. Essentially you make to monsters and jam them into the same body so that they have multiple turns. Once an hp threshold is reached they lose a turn.

On paper it seems clean. In practice one of my old players hated it because WotC never play tested it.

Furthermore I expected them to walk into the fight with a cleric who can buff, two rogues, a fighter, an OP as heck ranger. I was expecting them to have a damage output of 60+ a round.

Sadly they were down a rogue and out of spell slots. So it was damn near a tpk. The fighter ended up striking the finishing blow at 4hp. (Thank god for DR).

I did most of the DM things. Fudged rolls in their favor (monster kept critting). Portioned mon HP due to lack of party members.

Was this an anomaly? Or is the Paragon system more broken than immediately apparent?


Cramming two monsters in one body results in a HP bag who's doing the equivalent of constant Action Surge each turn for free and who get 2 Reaction. Sure, the adventurers got only one target, but if the monster can concentrate its firepower on one guy, said guy won't last long. And for each adventurer dealt with, the fight get harder.

That being said, even if I'm not the biggest fan of the Angry DM's advices, I think your situation in particular was more due to one PC being downed already and the remaining ones being out of spell slots.




How does the playground make actual difficult boss fights.

Having the PCs not having access to a lot of their ressources due to fighting the boss's mooks before can goes a long way toward limiting the advantage from superior numbers, IMO.

What often makes the PCs a threat to bosses is that they can nova a lot.

[LeonBH]

The spell point variant rule in DMG 288. Instead of having a pool of spell slots, you have a pool of spell points. You spend those points to buy slots, which you then cast spells from. Kind of like a mana pool, and casting spells costs mana.

For example, a 4th level caster has 17 spell points. So they can cast eight 1st level spells (which cost 2 spell points each), or five 2nd level spells (which cost 3 spell points each).

[Unoriginal]

Sadly, solo monster encounters don't work. They never have worked, not in any edition. Action economy is that strong

I would disagree with that. Tiamat at full power is considered a pretty great boss, even alone against a lvl 20 group.




In summary, I find that using "monsters" with class levels works wonders in counteracting action economy.

Err, how do you avoid the group killing the class-level monsters quickly? A lvl 20 Sorcerer will have the HPs of maybe a CR 10-12 monster.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I once threw a L20 Shadow Sorc/Oathbreaker Paladin boss at a L13 party. He had no legendary resistances and legendary actions, but he used Spell Points.

The party killed him eventually, but not before dropping almost everyone in the party at least once with his Quickened Fireballs. By the time the Sorcadin dropped to ~10 HP, one of the players started calling to retreat. I forgot to use Lay on Hands.

Another time, I threw a L14 Illusionist Wizard who had precast Mirage Arcane at them, also using Spell Points. I scared the party really good with the Mirage Arcane plus Malleable Illusions combination.

In summary, I find that using "monsters" with class levels works wonders in counteracting action economy.

PCs (and monsters built that way) are glass cannons by design--they pack a punch but can take a lot less of a beating. This makes fights with them very swingy with a high chance of killing a party member outright in round 1 (which is less than fun--then that player is sitting there doing nothing the rest of the fight). For most cases, I recommend not doing this.



Having the PCs not having access to a lot of their ressources due to fighting the boss's mooks before can goes a long way toward limiting the advantage from superior numbers, IMO.

What often makes the PCs a threat to bosses is that they can nova a lot.

Exactly. This edition (and all editions, really) rely on attrition and adventuring day management. The 5-minute working day is the biggest failure point. Having multi-creature fights is also critical to success--they can absorb resources without needing to be a single big bag of HP. Waves of minions are also a good idea.

[LeonBH]

Err, how do you avoid the group killing the class-level monsters quickly? A lvl 20 Sorcerer will have the HPs of maybe a CR 10-12 monster.

I max out their hit die and give them the Shield spell.

[Legendairy]

So I've run into a design issue in 5e, namely boss monster action economy.

Furthermore there don't seem to be any kind of design guidelines for lair or legendary actions.

In solution I found Angry DM's paragon monsters. I'd link but I'm on mobile at the doc. Essentially you make to monsters and jam them into the same body so that they have multiple turns. Once an hp threshold is reached they lose a turn.

On paper it seems clean. In practice one of my old players hated it because WotC never play tested it.

Furthermore I expected them to walk into the fight with a cleric who can buff, two rogues, a fighter, an OP as heck ranger. I was expecting them to have a damage output of 60+ a round.

Sadly they were down a rogue and out of spell slots. So it was damn near a tpk. The fighter ended up striking the finishing blow at 4hp. (Thank god for DR).

I did most of the DM things. Fudged rolls in their favor (monster kept critting). Portioned mon HP due to lack of party members.

Was this an anomaly? Or is the Paragon system more broken than immediately apparent?

How does the playground make actual difficult boss fights.

I have used this as well, it needs to be modified a bit imho. What I did was combine elementals into like a chaos type elemental that “shedded” it’s layers. At first it had 1 attack a round as an earth elemental that hit really hard with that attack. Once that was broken (I added vulnerabilities to certain damage types) they fought the fire portion with its two attacks and aoe damage shield (again kept with water vulnerability) and the third stage was an air elemental with its vortex ability going. All in all it was a fun encounter and not too powerful it was basically a tank and spank fight but “seemed” more. So it can be done just have to pay attention and change on the fly until you get used to it.

Mooks mooks mooks and more mooks. Seriously, I have updated multiple modules and the big bag of hp doesn’t work anymore you have to add environment and mook challenges during the fight if they have all he resources or before to wear them down.

[Sivarias]

I like mooks. Their useful. But they aren't the POINT of a good story. The POINT is the bad guy, and I'm desperately liking for a way to make him interesting

[LeonBH]

PCs (and monsters built that way) are glass cannons by design--they pack a punch but can take a lot less of a beating. This makes fights with them very swingy with a high chance of killing a party member outright in round 1 (which is less than fun--then that player is sitting there doing nothing the rest of the fight). For most cases, I recommend not doing this.

My experience with having done this a lot says otherwise, and I would actually recommend you to try it. It can produce some tense fights. Be sure to hit the tank first if you throw a Sorcadin at them.

[LeonBH]

I like mooks. Their useful. But they aren't the POINT of a good story. The POINT is the bad guy, and I'm desperately liking for a way to make him interesting

Give the big bad class levels. Sorlock, or Swashbuckler/Bladesinger, or Sorcadin, or something like that. It's mechanically interesting because each of those builds have their own strategies. They are not big bags of HP who will stand there and try to deal damage. They have a style of combat they prefer, and you get to play with those resources. Is that not interesting? Even without giving them mooks, they're fun and effective.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I like mooks. Their useful. But they aren't the POINT of a good story. The POINT is the bad guy, and I'm desperately liking for a way to make him interesting

There don't have to be too many mooks in a fight to counter action economy advantages. Even 1 or two decent mooks make for a much better fight.


My experience with having done this a lot says otherwise, and I would actually recommend you to try it. It can produce some tense fights. Be sure to hit the tank first if you throw a Sorcadin at them.

This may be play-style, but that presumes there's a classic tank + support + damage group. None of my groups have that, so super bursty monsters are both a) harder to run for me (more things to manage) and b) randomly swingy. A good crit (or a critical miss) from a glass-cannon type (especially alone) can swing the encounter entirely and result in the death of a party member. And dying (due to random dice), especially right out the gate is in my opinion boring, not tense. I'd rather have 3-4 rounds of good combat where everyone gets to use their cool toys than one "bad-roll == death" experience.

[LeonBH]

There don't have to be too many mooks in a fight to counter action economy advantages. Even 1 or two decent mooks make for a much better fight.



This may be play-style, but that presumes there's a classic tank + support + damage group. None of my groups have that, so super bursty monsters are both a) harder to run for me (more things to manage) and b) randomly swingy. A good crit (or a critical miss) from a glass-cannon type (especially alone) can swing the encounter entirely and result in the death of a party member. And dying (due to random dice), especially right out the gate is in my opinion boring, not tense. I'd rather have 3-4 rounds of good combat where everyone gets to use their cool toys than one "bad-roll == death" experience.

Then don't throw a glass cannon at them. Use a Swashbuckler, who can kite effectively but not deal as much damage.

You seem to be telling me that something I've already effectively tried many times, is ineffective. I'm sharing with you some actual experience that shows your opinion is not quite right. Have you actually given it a try for your boss monsters to present as counter-evidence?

You also seem to be assuming that a monster who has PC levels means a player dies in the first round. This is far from the truth unless you force that outcome, as the DM.

[UrielAwakened]

I've been using boss monsters and they work fine.

I just make sure to throw 4 or 5 encounters at my party first.

Double whatever their HP should be for their CR (but leave their CR the same), give them Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistances, with +1 extra legendary action point for each PC in your group above 5, as well as two to three spell like abilities each that hit and disable multiple opponents.

A Cone of Cold or a Mass Hold Person on a CR 7 or 8 monster goes a long way.

His Paragon monster system is too complex IMO. Also the action falls in the opposite way. You want the battle to get harder or more dramatic as it goes on, not easier.

[JNAProductions]

I've been using boss monsters and they work fine.

I just make sure to throw 4 or 5 encounters at my party first.

Double whatever their HP should be for their CR (but leave their CR the same), give them Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistances, with +1 extra legendary action point for each PC in your group above 5, as well as two to three spell like abilities each that hit and disable multiple opponents.

A Cone of Cold or a Mass Hold Person on a CR 7 or 8 monster goes a long way.

His Paragon monster system is too complex IMO. Also the action falls in the opposite way. You want the battle to get harder or more dramatic as it goes on, not easier.

I did the reverse with some of my monsters. As they go through phases, they get more actions, not less.

[UrielAwakened]

I did the reverse with some of my monsters. As they go through phases, they get more actions, not less.

Yeah that's my point. Giving them more actions, not taking them away, or at least keeping them consistent through a fight, makes the fight harder and less of a foregone conclusion.

Angry GM's advice runs counter intuitive to that and follows the dramatic pacing of a regular fight with multiple monsters, which is no good.

[Legendairy]

Again, I have done the Angry GM boss monsters and they do work, you just have to make sure they don’t completely counter your group. Do not over use them or it will get blasé, they are fun and can feel epic occasionally. I also use them as a prior to big boss encounter (when the boss is weaker).

They do not have constant action surge, they just have the hp and abilities, give them an extra attack or something. They also don’t get two reactions that I recall.

[UrielAwakened]

Again, I have done the Angry GM boss monsters and they do work, you just have to make sure they don’t completely counter your group. Do not over use them or it will get blasé, they are fun and can feel epic occasionally. I also use them as a prior to big boss encounter (when the boss is weaker).

They do not have constant action surge, they just have the hp and abilities, give them an extra attack or something. They also don’t get two reactions that I recall.

By his rules they do since they get two turns and their reaction refreshes each time.

I don't know man I throw a regular boss at my party at the end of every single dungeon. I don't feel like I could ever overuse it. It just works.

[Legendairy]

By his rules they do since they get two turns and their reaction refreshes each time.

I don't know man I throw a regular boss at my party at the end of every single dungeon. I don't feel like I could ever overuse it. It just works.

I do both, the paragon let’s the players feel like they are fighting a wow boss with the tactics changing based on phase, they dig it. I didn’t recall the multiple actions and reactions so I change that bit at my table.

I also do the boss encounters at the end of the dungeon, it’s just a nice change to throw the paragon in there for someone who has been playing 20+ years without much deviation from that end boss style. Definitely not for every group or every encounter but it does add a bit of spice.

[PhoenixPhyre]

One option I thought of (but haven't actually run) is making a "combining mecha" boss. In this case, it's a single boss composed of several distinct parts with separate HP, turns, defenses, attacks, etc. Each part might influence the others--all must be defeated. In the particular case I was building, it really was a mechanical monstrosity (appropriately named VOLTRON-D). It had a core (gave regen to the rest + a big eyebeam-like cannon where facing mattered), a base (mobility + a point-blank aoe), one arm with low defenses and a BFG long-range cannon and a second with a close-in attack and higher defenses. Killing the core would be hard--it resisted all damage except in the round after it fired its cannon. This way it's conceptually one monster, but they can chew pieces off for various effects.

[UrielAwakened]

One option I thought of (but haven't actually run) is making a "combining mecha" boss. In this case, it's a single boss composed of several distinct parts with separate HP, turns, defenses, attacks, etc. Each part might influence the others--all must be defeated. In the particular case I was building, it really was a mechanical monstrosity (appropriately named VOLTRON-D). It had a core (gave regen to the rest + a big eyebeam-like cannon where facing mattered), a base (mobility + a point-blank aoe), one arm with low defenses and a BFG long-range cannon and a second with a close-in attack and higher defenses. Killing the core would be hard--it resisted all damage except in the round after it fired its cannon. This way it's conceptually one monster, but they can chew pieces off for various effects.

Tried it.

It's too specific to use as a general boss rule but it's a neat one-off boss approach.

Really only works for things that are way bigger than Gargantuan too.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Tried it.

It's too specific to use as a general boss rule but it's a neat one-off boss approach.

Really only works for things that are way bigger than Gargantuan too.

Yeah. But useful where it works, with appropriate variations. Not so good for living things, but for constructs it can work well. Another boss was a demi-lich but he had statues that would cast (necrotic) wall of fire in one of a few directions in his lair. Things like this that prevent static "stand there and nova" tactics.

[UrielAwakened]

Yeah. But useful where it works, with appropriate variations. Not so good for living things, but for constructs it can work well. Another boss was a demi-lich but he had statues that would cast (necrotic) wall of fire in one of a few directions in his lair. Things like this that prevent static "stand there and nova" tactics.

I've got an idea coming up for a boss designed to be a challenge for a full party with a full day's resources.

My current plan is make the boss really big, give it loads of hp (I'm wavering between 5 and 10 times as much as would be normal for its CR), and incorporate something on the battlefield that encourages movement and tactics. In some capacity this will come from its actual attacks having a pattern in regards to which squares are affected, and in others it will come from allowing a "second wind" ability to be used when the character is standing at a certain location on the battlefield to replicate the healing they would get from a short rest.

It's either going to be amazing or a complete disaster. I can't wait to see which.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've got an idea coming up for a boss designed to be a challenge for a full party with a full day's resources.

My current plan is make the boss really big, give it loads of hp (I'm wavering between 5 and 10 times as much as would be normal for its CR), and incorporate something on the battlefield that encourages movement and tactics. In some capacity this will come from its actual attacks having a pattern in regards to which squares are affected, and in others it will come from allowing a "second wind" ability to be used when the character is standing at a certain location on the battlefield to replicate the healing they would get from a short rest.

It's either going to be amazing or a complete disaster. I can't wait to see which.

Heh. Sounds like fun. Way too much work for me to remember (I struggle remembering to use all of normal creatures' abilities), but could be fun. I'd telegraph the big strikes though. The mecha boss is designed so it can only rotate its core (with the mega beam cannon) once per turn, and I was planning to actually draw an arrow on the base to show which way it's facing at any time.

[Legendairy]

I've got an idea coming up for a boss designed to be a challenge for a full party with a full day's resources.

My current plan is make the boss really big, give it loads of hp (I'm wavering between 5 and 10 times as much as would be normal for its CR), and incorporate something on the battlefield that encourages movement and tactics. In some capacity this will come from its actual attacks having a pattern in regards to which squares are affected, and in others it will come from allowing a "second wind" ability to be used when the character is standing at a certain location on the battlefield to replicate the healing they would get from a short rest.

It's either going to be amazing or a complete disaster. I can't wait to see which.

Sounds amazing! Amazingly good or amazingly awful you will have to let me know.

Sounds again like an MMO raid type, where you look for triggers or red indicators to stay out of bad juju or you wipe the raid.

[Legendairy]

One option I thought of (but haven't actually run) is making a "combining mecha" boss. In this case, it's a single boss composed of several distinct parts with separate HP, turns, defenses, attacks, etc. Each part might influence the others--all must be defeated. In the particular case I was building, it really was a mechanical monstrosity (appropriately named VOLTRON-D). It had a core (gave regen to the rest + a big eyebeam-like cannon where facing mattered), a base (mobility + a point-blank aoe), one arm with low defenses and a BFG long-range cannon and a second with a close-in attack and higher defenses. Killing the core would be hard--it resisted all damage except in the round after it fired its cannon. This way it's conceptually one monster, but they can chew pieces off for various effects.

I....just....have to! I’m running an Eberron campaign so maybe the lord of blades will finally finish whatever he is making in the mournlands and it’s on the march.
Airships assaulting this massive construct that can shoot them down while the players coordinate the tactics with other captains to take out specific body parts all while being torn apart by its “big guns”. Could be amazing!

[PhoenixPhyre]

I....just....have to! I’m running an Eberron campaign so maybe the lord of blades will finally finish whatever he is making in the mournlands and it’s on the march.
Airships assaulting this massive construct that can shoot them down while the players coordinate the tactics with other captains to take out specific body parts all while being torn apart by its “big guns”. Could be amazing!

Mine was a bit smaller in scale (gargantuan), and the idea was to have the PCs climbing all over it, bashing parts to smithereens while others kept it from rampaging and destroying civilians. I can post what I worked up as inspiration if you want. I started with an iron golem and then...well...changed a few things :smallbiggrin:

[Legendairy]

Mine was a bit smaller in scale (gargantuan), and the idea was to have the PCs climbing all over it, bashing parts to smithereens while others kept it from rampaging and destroying civilians. I can post what I worked up as inspiration if you want. I started with an iron golem and then...well...changed a few things :smallbiggrin:

Yes! Please do, no promises that it will even be a similar facsimile. Nice to have something crunchy to see.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes! Please do, no promises that it will even be a similar facsimile. Nice to have something crunchy to see.

No worries. It's an untested critter designed for a very particular place in a strange part of my setting. I haven't calculated a CR for the whole thing because I realized I wouldn't need it (the players went somewhere else), but it's designed for a party of level 16-ish players. Numbers need tweaking though.

VOLTRON-D stands for Verily Oversized Long and Terminal Range Optimized Neutralizing Defender.


Size: Gargantuan
AC: 20
HP: 146
Speed: 25 ft
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Resistances: B/S, Fire, Necrotic, Radiant, Cold
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Tremorsense 10, blind beyond that
-------
Traits:
Linked Core. As long as the VOLTRON-D core has more than 0 HP and the VOLTRON-D Base is not at 0 HP, the Base regains 10 HP at the start of its turn.

Tracked Vehicle. VOLTRON-D Base ignores difficult terrain.

Actions:
Close-range Anti-Personnel Blast. All creatures in a 10-foot cone must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 28 (8d6) lightning damage and is stunned until the end of its next turn. On a successful save the target takes half damage.



Size: Huge
AC: 20
HP: 331
Speed: * ft (moves with base)
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Resistances: All (see Wave Motion Cannon)
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Darkvision 120 ft.
-------
Traits:
Recharge: After after firing the Wave Motion Cannon, VOLTRON-D Core loses all damage resistances until the beginning of its next turn.
Slow Rotation: At the beginning of each turn the Core can choose what direction it faces.

Actions:
Wave Motion Cannon (recharge 5-6). All creatures in a 10-foot-wide, 120-ft long line in whatever direction the Core is facing must make a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw, taking 65 (10d12) radiant damage on a failed save. On a successful save targets take half damage. Objects and structures in the area automatically fail their saves and take maximum damage.

Reactions:
Deploy Negation Drone. Triggered on the second turn after the negation drone is destroyed. The drone is restored to full health.


//Note--the arms can rotate independently from the core.

Size: Large
AC: 15
HP: 58 //this one's partially finished so it's weaker
Speed: * (fixed to core)
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Blindsight 1200 ft
-------
Traits:
Linked Core. As long as the VOLTRON-D core has more than 0 HP and the VOLTRON-D arm is not at 0 HP, the arm regains 10 HP at the start of its turn.

Actions:
Burst Cannon Choose a point at least 30 feet away but at most 1200 feet away. All creatures in a 20 foot radius around that point must make a DC 19 Constitution save. On a failed save they take 65 (10d6) force damage and are pushed 10 feet away from the center of the effect. On a successful one they take half damage.



Size: Large
AC: 18
HP: 79
Speed: * (fixed to core)
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Blindsight 1200 ft
-------
Traits:
Linked Core. As long as the VOLTRON-D core has more than 0 HP and the VOLTRON-D arm is not at 0 HP, the arm regains 10 HP at the start of its turn.

Siege Weapon. Buildings and objects take double damage.

Actions:
Sword Smash. Melee weapon attack. Minimum range 10 feet, reach 30 ft. One target. +15 to hit, 37 (6d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage (counts as magical).



Size: tiny
AC: 23
HP: 10
Speed: fly 60 (hover)
STR 2 / DEX 20 / CON 12 / INT 20 / WIS 10 / CHA 10
Immunities: Poison, (construct)
Senses: Truesight 120 ft.
--
Traits:
Innate Spellcasting:
The negation drone can cast the following spells 5x each per long rest. It's casting ability is INT:
* Shield Other (like shield, but range 60 ft)
* Counterspell (modded to 120 ft range)

Actions:
Force Needles. Ranged Spell Attack, +8 to hit, 120 ft range. 10 (4d4) force damage.

[Legendairy]

No worries. It's an untested critter designed for a very particular place in a strange part of my setting. I haven't calculated a CR for the whole thing because I realized I wouldn't need it (the players went somewhere else), but it's designed for a party of level 16-ish players. Numbers need tweaking though.

VOLTRON-D stands for Verily Oversized Long and Terminal Range Optimized Neutralizing Defender.


Size: Gargantuan
AC: 20
HP: 146
Speed: 25 ft
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Resistances: B/S, Fire, Necrotic, Radiant, Cold
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Tremorsense 10, blind beyond that
-------
Traits:
Linked Core. As long as the VOLTRON-D core has more than 0 HP and the VOLTRON-D Base is not at 0 HP, the Base regains 10 HP at the start of its turn.

Tracked Vehicle. VOLTRON-D Base ignores difficult terrain.

Actions:
Close-range Anti-Personnel Blast. All creatures in a 10-foot cone must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 28 (8d6) lightning damage and is stunned until the end of its next turn. On a successful save the target takes half damage.



Size: Huge
AC: 20
HP: 331
Speed: * ft (moves with base)
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Resistances: All (see Wave Motion Cannon)
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Darkvision 120 ft.
-------
Traits:
Recharge: After after firing the Wave Motion Cannon, VOLTRON-D Core loses all damage resistances until the beginning of its next turn.
Slow Rotation: At the beginning of each turn the Core can choose what direction it faces.

Actions:
Wave Motion Cannon (recharge 5-6). All creatures in a 10-foot-wide, 120-ft long line in whatever direction the Core is facing must make a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw, taking 65 (10d12) radiant damage on a failed save. On a successful save targets take half damage. Objects and structures in the area automatically fail their saves and take maximum damage.

Reactions:
Deploy Negation Drone. Triggered on the second turn after the negation drone is destroyed. The drone is restored to full health.


//Note--the arms can rotate independently from the core.

Size: Large
AC: 15
HP: 58 //this one's partially finished so it's weaker
Speed: * (fixed to core)
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Blindsight 1200 ft
-------
Traits:
Linked Core. As long as the VOLTRON-D core has more than 0 HP and the VOLTRON-D arm is not at 0 HP, the arm regains 10 HP at the start of its turn.

Actions:
Burst Cannon Choose a point at least 30 feet away but at most 1200 feet away. All creatures in a 20 foot radius around that point must make a DC 19 Constitution save. On a failed save they take 65 (10d6) force damage and are pushed 10 feet away from the center of the effect. On a successful one they take half damage.



Size: Large
AC: 18
HP: 79
Speed: * (fixed to core)
STR 30/ DEX 4/ CON 30/ INT 10 /WIS 10/CHA 10 (only the physical stats got changed)
Saves: Dex +0
Immunities: Poison
Condition Immunities: (construct ones)
Senses: Blindsight 1200 ft
-------
Traits:
Linked Core. As long as the VOLTRON-D core has more than 0 HP and the VOLTRON-D arm is not at 0 HP, the arm regains 10 HP at the start of its turn.

Siege Weapon. Buildings and objects take double damage.

Actions:
Sword Smash. Melee weapon attack. Minimum range 10 feet, reach 30 ft. One target. +15 to hit, 37 (6d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage (counts as magical).



Size: tiny
AC: 23
HP: 10
Speed: fly 60 (hover)
STR 2 / DEX 20 / CON 12 / INT 20 / WIS 10 / CHA 10
Immunities: Poison, (construct)
Senses: Truesight 120 ft.
--
Traits:
Innate Spellcasting:
The negation drone can cast the following spells 5x each per long rest. It's casting ability is INT:
* Shield Other (like shield, but range 60 ft)
* Counterspell (modded to 120 ft range)

Actions:
Force Needles. Ranged Spell Attack, +8 to hit, 120 ft range. 10 (4d4) force damage.




Niiiice! I can have fun with this, thank you!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Niiiice! I can have fun with this, thank you!

Glad to see it will benefit someone. My players probably won't see it--they went charging straight for the secondary BBEG (that one is the tertiary BBEG). Who knew that telling them about (loose) deadlines would motivate them so much.

[Legendairy]

Glad to see it will benefit someone. My players probably won't see it--they went charging straight for the secondary BBEG (that one is the tertiary BBEG). Who knew that telling them about (loose) deadlines would motivate them so much.

I may kind of railroad them into before too long, so if I remember I will let you know what I do to fit it into Eberron and how it goes.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I may kind of railroad them into before too long, so if I remember I will let you know what I do to fit it into Eberron and how it goes.

That works. Hope it works out well for you.

[mephnick]

Then don't throw a glass cannon at them. Use a Swashbuckler, who can kite effectively but not deal as much damage.

You seem to be telling me that something I've already effectively tried many times, is ineffective. I'm sharing with you some actual experience that shows your opinion is not quite right. Have you actually given it a try for your boss monsters to present as counter-evidence?

You also seem to be assuming that a monster who has PC levels means a player dies in the first round. This is far from the truth unless you force that outcome, as the DM.

Man I'd like to watch these boss fights you're doing, because in 20 years of DMing I've never seen a solo boss NPC, built the old way, survive more than like 2 rounds no matter what PC levels I give him. A glass cannon? One nova away from death. A swashbucker? He gets knocked prone in round one and the fight is over. A single failed save kills any solo boss monster. Do you fudge a lot of dice?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Man I'd like to watch these boss fights you're doing, because in 20 years of DMing I've never seen a solo boss NPC, built the old way, survive more than like 2 rounds no matter what PC levels I give him. A glass cannon? One nova away from death. A swashbucker? He gets knocked prone in round one and the fight is over. A single failed save kills any solo boss monster. Do you fudge a lot of dice?

Building NPCs like PCs is possible to do right, just hard. The failure states are also a lot worse--TPKs due to random rolls are not generally considered a good thing (unlike TPKs due to horrible tactics or over-extending yourself badly).

Even the tankiest, most evasion-y PC builds are glass cannons (much higher offense than defense) compared to MM monsters. And that's on purpose, and for a good reason. The two are not symmetrical in roles or expectations. We (or at least 5e's developers) expect lots more monsters to die per PC death. Combine this with the fact that rolling big numbers is fun to a lot of people (myself included) and that the players are the ones whose fun is important (NPCs are foils to the PCs, not main characters themselves), and the answer is obvious.

More theoretically, the options are (all of these are relative to the AC/saves/etc, not health):

* If the NPCs output is high and the PCs output is high, everyone will die easily. This is rocket tag--randomness wins, because the first to hit is the winner. This is the end result of building NPCs like PCs.
* If the NPCs output is low and the PC's output is low, then fights drag on forever. This is padded sumo.
* If the NPCs output is high and the PCs output is low, then you have a meat grinder. PCs die like flies. And since there are many more NPCs than PCs... While not inherently bad, this is not this edition's style.
* If the NPCs output is low and the PCs output is high, then you have fast, survivable combat (I don't have a good name for this). To make this style not a cake-walk, the NPCs need just enough health to survive for a few rounds but not be OHKO threats, or there need to be more than one of them. This is the standard assumption of the NPC build system.

A mixed way is to give NPCs class features that are reminiscent of a PC class, but not the full build. This allows you to have a "rogue" NPC with sneak attack while still having the proper asymmetry of builds for a good, nova-resistant experience.

[mephnick]

A mixed way is to give NPCs class features that are reminiscent of a PC class, but not the full build. This allows you to have a "rogue" NPC with sneak attack while still having the proper asymmetry of builds for a good, nova-resistant experience.

This is how I build all my NPCs. I take the HP etc for the CR I want and add class features like Cunning Action until they resemble the class I want. Super fast and easy.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is how I build all my NPCs. I take the HP etc for the CR I want and add class features like Cunning Action until they resemble the class I want. Super fast and easy.

Agreed. I tend to modify existing stat blocks instead, but it's a similar process. I'm super glad they ditched PC/NPC transparency for this edition. Makes for a much cleaner, simpler, better process in my opinion.