Why late game builds?

[Sargentpsychooo]

Hi, I have been playing dnd for about 1 year now and have yet to get a character to level 20 most campaigns end by level 10. Because of that fact I can almost never use the builds I get help for from the forum as most of them only get good at 10 and above.

I guess what I am asking is:"is it abnormal for my games to never get into high levels?" According to the builds people give me it seems that their campaigns almost always go to 16 at least.

[DeTess]

It's not abnormal at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of games end at around the mid-levels. However, the assumption of the forums is that they don't, and builds are made with that in mind. Therefore, if you want help with a build, maybe first check till what level the game will likely run, so that you can specify that in your request.

[UrielAwakened]

No this is pretty typical.

Which is why if you're looking to build a character, always favor short-term benefits over ones that don't come into play until end game. Not only are you less likely to reach it, you also spend less time reaping the rewards overall.

It's why I'm baffled when people mention capstones as a hindrance to multiclasses. Even if they're really great capstones you spend maybe one level using them.

[mgshamster]

Levels 3-12 are the most common across all games, according to WotC research. That's why the xo chart slows down for those levels, and speeds up from levels 1-3 and 12+.

High level builds are for theory crafting, starting games at high level, or introducing a PC at high level to replace one that died.

Some people do start at high level. But it's not as common as starting a low level and working your way up. Especially if your table mostly plays published campaigns.

Either way, don't worry about "builds." Just play the pc that sounds fun and you'll be good. And the more you invest in the story of your PC, the more you'll get drawn in to the story of the game, and the more fun you'll have in the long run.

[CantigThimble]

Personally, I just have no interest in builds that come online after level 7-8. Beyond that, you're probably too close to the end of the campaign to really enjoy the build.

[mephnick]

That's why you need to take things on here with a grain of salt. It's mostly just for fun to see what you can make, not to actually play at the table.

Everyone's always talking about taking 2-3 level dips in certain classes. Well I did that once and the first 6 or 7 levels were agonizing. I wish I'd never done it. Thankfully we leveled up fast in that game. It's not so simple when you actually have to play through the dip.

[Unoriginal]

People talk about late game builds because it's more epic than talking about the levels where you can get killed stealing chickens from a farmer.

[sithlordnergal]

Well, I generally focus on late game builds because I do expect my characters to reach level 20 in the end. That said, I play Adventure League games, so I can bring my characters to any table as long as it is within the right tier. As such my characters continue to see use long after their main campaign has ended, and most of my characters have never been in an adventure from a Campaign book.

That said, most campaigns do end around level 12, so it is perfectly normal for your party.

[QuintonBeck]

Most games don't make it to 20. Few make it close to 15. I'd wager part of the reason you see late-stage builds on the forum is the only way to create a new combination with the classes/races/backgrounds is to add more of certain things. Most effective 1-7 build advices have been extensively covered at this point. You have to start adding more levels to create new/different combo potentials between features.

[Galactkaktus]

This makes me abit curious what are the worthwhile dips/builds before level 10?
I'm guessing 5 levels fighter and then just rogue levels would be pretty competitive at all levels?
One level of barbarian at level 3 or 7 for a moon circel druid maybe?
And if you find a decent medium armor one level of cleric for a wizard might be good.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I'm thinking about taking a level of Warlock or Sorcerer for my level 6 Lore Bard to get the damaging cantrips and some back story advancement. Probably just one level though.

[Contrast]

This makes me abit curious what are the worthwhile dips/builds before level 10?

I think this is part of the reason you don't see a lot of discussion of low level builds. Most of the time you want a certain level of base competency before you mutitclass for fanciness or the build requires a couple level dip at the start and given a lot of campaigns end at low levels at that point you're often better off just sticking straight class or you'll spend 2/3rds of the campaign waiting for the multiclass to actually pay off.

[Spacehamster]

This makes me abit curious what are the worthwhile dips/builds before level 10?
I'm guessing 5 levels fighter and then just rogue levels would be pretty competitive at all levels?
One level of barbarian at level 3 or 7 for a moon circel druid maybe?
And if you find a decent medium armor one level of cleric for a wizard might be good.

If using fighter to get 2nd attack I would stop at 6 for an additional quick ASI and not at 5 like you would with Ranger or Barb. :)

[Galactkaktus]

If using fighter to get 2nd attack I would stop at 6 for an additional quick ASI and not at 5 like you would with Ranger or Barb. :)

Yeah i thought about that to but that asi have alot of though competition.
At level 6 sneak attack and expertise vs asi
At level 7 cunning action vs asi
At level 8 rougish archetype and one more sneak attack dice vs asi
At level 9 Asi that brings you closer to more sneak attack vs Asi
At level 10 Uncanny dodge + one more sneak attack dice vs Asi

I just don't know when i think the asi beats the class feature that rogue gives.

[opaopajr]

Theory crafting is its own solitaire game. Don't put too much stock into it. You're playstyle is fine just the way it is, and undoubtedly the norm. :smallcool:

Remember, not everyone who play games spends time on fora chatting about games. This mini-game is to bide the time for those who don't get all the gaming time they want. And, surprisingly, some hardly play at all; this theory crafting mini-game (& text reading) suffices their needs.

Actual play is better, but it's a fun mental distraction nonetheless. :smallsmile:

[CantigThimble]

Theory crafting is its own solitaire game. Don't put too much stock into it. You're playstyle is fine just the way it is, and undoubtedly the norm. :smallcool:

Remember, not everyone who play games spends time on fora chatting about games. This mini-game is to bide the time for those who don't get all the gaming time they want. And, surprisingly, some hardly play at all; this theory crafting mini-game (& text reading) suffices their needs.

Actual play is better, but it's a fun mental distraction nonetheless. :smallsmile:

It's like sudoku, if the 6s were replaced with 2 levels of paladin.

[opaopajr]

It's like sudoku, if the 6s were replaced with 2 levels of paladin.

And you always gotta keep checking your columns, rows, and squares. :smalltongue:

[PeteNutButter]

Rule #6 from my Optimization Rules:

"6. Ignore High level abilities

I almost titled this rule "Get the build online early," but I really wanted to drive the point home that high level abilities, we'll say tier 4 abilities, are not something most people should be building their characters around. Too often games never make it that far and if they do, there is a lot more play time on the way that would possibly justify getting something else much sooner, even if you are the kind of person that saves the marshmallows in your lucky charms for last. (The obvious exception is if the game starts at higher level.)

I generally try and have my characters fully online by about level 7-8 at the latest, with everything coming afterwards to be just bonuses."

The rules are in my signature if you care to read them.

I take it a step further, and don't even like to theorycraft for level 20. It's just misleading. It's like planning on what you're going to do with a billion dollars: A waste of time because you'll never get it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I started thinking about a monk recently in order to have a level 10 character around for filler sessions when the whole group can't attend. The best fit to what I wanted thematically seemed to be Open Hand, unarmed only. However, the last level especially seemed to cry out, "I'm a trap! Dip me away!"

So based on that late-game consideration I started looking at what bard 3, fighter 2-3, rogue 3, ranger 3 and so on could offer. Realized on close inspection that a lot of what they offered was entirely wasted on an unarmed character, and dipping for utility spells to reflavour as monk shenanigans... turns out monks already get always-on monk shenanigans, who'd have thought.

So, no. Monk 10 it is. I don't know if the character will ever rise to monk 11 and step up the damage die. I'm pretty sure it's never going to get to 20 and force me to decide whether to graciously accept that monk capstone with clenched teeth and twitching eye.

Well, that's my story. What's your opinion on smoked cheese.

[Corsair14]

As said, not abnormal at all. My advice for a new player like yourself(yes 1 year, you are still a newb) make characters because they are fun with a cool concept, not because the internet says the most optimal build is X. Never understood the sudden change in mindset between 3.5 and 5 with making the most optimal character possible. The game is not a competition. Its a role playing game.

[Spacehamster]

Yeah i thought about that to but that asi have alot of though competition.
At level 6 sneak attack and expertise vs asi
At level 7 cunning action vs asi
At level 8 rougish archetype and one more sneak attack dice vs asi
At level 9 Asi that brings you closer to more sneak attack vs Asi
At level 10 Uncanny dodge + one more sneak attack dice vs Asi

I just don't know when i think the asi beats the class feature that rogue gives.

Another feat gives you what you need quicker tho especially if you are going for a feat heavy build, just sayin. :)

[Potato_Priest]

When I'm asking for help here I make a point to add the following disclaimers:

A)Whether I can or want to use multiclassing/feats
B)What level the build should be "online" by (usually between 4 and 6)
C)any fluff stuff I want to make sure to keep

[Galactkaktus]

Another feat gives you what you need quicker tho especially if you are going for a feat heavy build, just sayin. :)

If i was going feat heavy it would be a no brainer. But i generally despise feat heavy builds. And a rogue/fighter really only need two attributes to function well in combat so i don't value asi as highly as i normaly whould.

[Randomthom]

And you always gotta keep checking your columns, rows, and squares. :smalltongue:

Does anyone else ever see a 3x3 Sudoku or noughts and crosses grid and just see LG NG CG etc. along the rows?

[Spore]

P&P is a group activity where your character has a certain ingame reputation. This reputation gets built in the first 5-8 sessions. If the character is useless there, the character has a bad rep. Even if the player tells the others: "Yeah, but this build comes online on level 10." The character is forever useless. A friend of mine never has exactly the heavily optimized and tinkered-with forum build. But he also never optimizes in a vacuum. Conversely he also never optimizes with a party in mind. His character is good at the things his character should be good in to be self sufficient. Synergy with the party is nice but not needed. This results in builds that are almost always good. They tend to leave the game balance in place, they tend to not use some possibilities for optimization but they are above average.

Take the (infamous) Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard 19 for example. You'll shoot yourself in the foot until level 6 (or 8) to have a few better knowledge rolls. And even if you win 1st level cleric spells you are often just a level short.

[X3r4ph]

I have been playing in the same group for over 2 years now. We are level 18. Only two of the original 5 characters are still alive though.

Side note. 5e can handle high level gameplay much better than previous editions. I would say. Bounded accuracy rocks.

No paper character sheet can handle it though. You should see the barbarians sheet. My god. At this point i think you could contract Slimy Doom from it.

[Arkhios]

I've seen (and played) a D&D equivalent game from 1st level up to 17th level and beyond before, but that's just a bonus.

The reason why I make late game builds is mostly because a certain level of "obsessive completionism". Seeing that every class has built-in levels up to 20th level, it would feel strange not to.