Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?

[rmnimoc]

Suppose that you wake up tomorrow with the ability to either cast all divine spells of third level or less or all arcane spells of third level or less. No one else on earth has these abilities.

Which would you pick and why?

[AvatarVecna]

Suppose that you wake up tomorrow with the ability to either cast all divine spells of third level or less or all arcane spells of third level or less. No one else on earth has these abilities.

Which would you pick and why?

First off, I'm assuming I have CL 5 for these spells. How many slots are we talking for each level? Or are we talking at-will?

I'm off to get an idea of what would end up counting for each of these.

[skunk3]

I would go with divine, easily. There's so many handy spells from 1-3 that it would make mundane life easy and help others around you. You'd kinda be like Jesus.

[heavyfuel]

You can get many Arcane spells from divine lists. Even if cleric domains aren't available, the Adept and the Shugenja both have them. This includes Invisibility, one of the two best ones (Invisibility and Fly) from the Adept list.

Also, how bummed would you be if you chose Arcane, but then got some incurable disease?

[zlefin]

at those low levels; probably divine.
assuming I don't have to worry about getting ganked/killed/dissected for having these powers.
(for spell lists i'm looking at the cleric list vs the sor/wiz list, rather than all arcane vs all divine which gets a bit muddier)
most of the low level wizard spells aren't anything that vital or otherwise unachievable in the modern world.
it's mostly at higher levels that the wiz gets crazy awesome stuff.
the low need of combat in the modern world also means the combat oriented stuff is unnecessary.

The most obvious awesome spells in divine are: remove disease, and remove blindness/deafness. those can easily be parlayed into a fortune and/or simply doing a bunch of good.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, so individual spells are never explicitly arcane or divine, but rather caster classes cast spells as arcane or divine. By perusing the list of All Caster Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8597.0) and checking on the less clear ones, we can see what does and doesn't count. Additionally, classes that get less than full-9ths casting often get spells a level or two earlier than other classes (since they end up getting the spell around the same character level and its relevant to their theme). Additionally, a lot of classes end up drawing their spells from another list (cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard usually).

Adept
Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Ranger
Savant
Shaman
Shugenja
Sorcerer/Wizard (via Generic Spellcaster)

Bard
Cleric (via Generic Spellcaster)
Death Master
Dread Necromancer
Druid (via Generic Spellcaster)
Duskblade
Hexblade
Jester
Magewright
Savant
Sorcerer
Wizard
Warmage
Wu Gen

From what I'm seeing, while there's about an equal number of base classes that cast as arcane and divine, there's a lot more divine classes who pull solely from the cleric or druid list than there are arcane classes that pull solely from the sorcerer or wizard list. That is to say, there's a lot more classes casting off their own list on the arcane side.

After some thought, I think I'd probably go with Divine; most of the 1st to 3rd lvl spells on the arcane list I'm interested in casting will be on the sorcerer/wizard list, which I can snipe via Generic Spellcaster, and then I get access to 3rd lvl Ranger/Paladin spells which are meant for much higher level adventurers (giving me a lot more room to work with).

[tadkins]

I'd go Arcane without a second thought. Mostly because the power would genuinely be mine. I wouldn't have to worry about appeasing some deity or wake up one day with my powers suddenly gone for whatever reason.

[heavyfuel]

I'd go Arcane without a second thought. Mostly because the power would genuinely be mine. I wouldn't have to worry about appeasing some deity or wake up one day with my powers suddenly gone for whatever reason.

Not all divine spell come from deities, nor are divine spellcasters usually required to keep any deity satisfied. You're not a Cleric or a Paladin, you're a Divine Caster. And even then, Clerics can follow ideals. No reason your ideal can't be "the market" if you want to make money, or "helping people" if you want to be good.

[tadkins]

Not all divine spell come from deities, nor are divine spellcasters usually required to keep any deity satisfied. You're not a Cleric or a Paladin, you're a Divine Caster. And even then, Clerics can follow ideals. No reason your ideal can't be "the market" if you want to make money, or "helping people" if you want to be good.

That's true. I suppose it's just the word "divine" that gets to me. It implies that the power comes from a form that's higher than yourself. I wouldn't want that. I'd want the power to come from myself.

[Palanan]

I’d go divine without a second thought.

With just two spells from the BoED—Ease Pain and Remove Addiction—I could make progress on some serious real-world issues.

[Dragovon]

I think it's really noble that people picked divine in a deluded attempt to fix the world. Sadly even with at will spells, you'd only be able to help a fairly limited number of people compared to the vast numbers of humanity. If I really thought I could seriously benefit the world by picking divine over picking arcane, I'd consider it. However, I'm pretty comfortable that I could do more good in the world with arcane. Sure I couldn't cure someone's disease, but I could use illusions and enchantments to effect change in the world by affecting what those in the halls of power wanted. Sure..they might change their mind later...but that wouldn't change the fact that I could affect laws that were passed, money allocated for research based upon altruism instead of based upon monetary benefits. Things of this nature. Sure...some of those spells can be gained by divine casters...assuming they get domain spells...which wasn't really a given. Plus...just because I woke up a 5th level caster, doesn't mean I wouldn't eventually do more...and the higher level I could do, the more power I could wield.

[Nifft]

Arcane.

Planar Binding -> "Hello honored Celestial, I'd like you to cast ease pain and remove disease on a lot of people. I think they're generally good people but you're free to use your own judgment. Just do as much good as you can, that's my overall request. How much will you charge me for this service, and how long can you perform it?"

With Arcane magic, I can do Divine magic tricks at scale.

[Arael666]

Arcane.

Planar Binding -> "Hello honored Celestial, I'd like you to cast ease pain and remove disease on a lot of people. I think they're generally good people but you're free to use your own judgment. Just do as much good as you can, that's my overall request. How much will you charge me for this service, and how long can you perform it?"

With Arcane magic, I can do Divine magic tricks at scale.

and how would you get planar biding, or even the lesser version, as a third level spell?

[zlefin]

dragovon ->
if it was at-will you could help a ridiculously huge number of people with the divine spells.
if it's just normal, it's still a very reasonable amount of good for the world (and/or a huge pile of money).
you're also simply wrong ot call it deluded.

the problem with your proposal is it's very prone to making enemies/making you a target.

[Nifft]

and how would you get planar biding, or even the lesser version, as a third level spell?

Demonologist from BoVD, has Lesser Planar Binding and Dimensional Anchor, both as level 3 spells.

Thanks for asking :biggrin:

[Arael666]

Demonologist from BoVD, has Lesser Planar Binding and Dimensional Anchor, both as level 3 spells.

Thanks for asking :biggrin:

When I didn't see any white text I thought I just had too :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

Demonologist from BoVD, has Lesser Planar Binding and Dimensional Anchor, both as level 3 spells.

Thanks for asking :biggrin:

... which 6 HD or less outsider has the spells you're after, though?

[Nifft]

... which 6 HD or less outsider has the spells you're after, though?

Aasimar Cleric 6 is the obvious and trivial solution.

There are probably others.

[Jay R]

I really don't care that much whether I get rich from healing spells or get rich from clairvoyance & clairaudience.

[heavyfuel]

Aasimar Cleric 6 is the obvious and trivial solution.

There are probably others.

Except the first time you miss your ranged touch attack with Dimensional Anchor you're about to feel quite a lot of regret by whichever outsider escapes and decides to whoop ya. (It's pretty easy for a 6th level Cleric to escape your magic circle)

[Nifft]

Except the first time you miss your ranged touch attack with Dimensional Anchor you're about to feel quite a lot of regret by whichever outsider escapes and decides to whoop ya. (It's pretty easy for a 6th level Cleric to escape your magic circle)

"Except..." what?

What ranged touch do you think is necessary for lesser planar binding?

You have read the spell, right? :annoyed:

[heavyfuel]

You have read the spell, right? :annoyed:

As a matter of fact, I did.

Seems you need a reminder though:

"The creature can escape from the trap [...] by dimensional travel"

So all they need is any form of teleport and you're toast

[Zanos]

Except the first time you miss your ranged touch attack with Dimensional Anchor you're about to feel quite a lot of regret by whichever outsider escapes and decides to whoop ya. (It's pretty easy for a 6th level Cleric to escape your magic circle)
Not agreeing that you can specify "Aasimar Cleric 6" with planar binding, but using a call diagram specifically allows you to cast dimensional anchor on the circle before you summon the creature. Since there's no reason to ever use planar binding without a summoning diagram, I don't think that will ever be a problem.

[Nifft]

As a matter of fact, I did.

Seems you need a reminder though:

"The creature can escape from the trap [...] by dimensional travel"

So all they need is any form of teleport and you're toast You're half-way there.

Now look at the second half of Magic Circle Against Evil, and specifically how that spell interacts with Dimensional Anchor.

Also, please dial back the snippy little nasty crap you're throwing at me in this thread. If you're polite when you think you're right, it's going to go a lot better for you when you ultimately realize you were wrong.


Not agreeing that you can specify "Aasimar Cleric 6" with planar binding, but using a call diagram specifically allows you to cast dimensional anchor on the circle before you summon the creature. Since there's no reason to ever use planar binding without a summoning diagram, I don't think that will ever be a problem. Yeah, there's nothing saying that "Aasimar Cleric 6" is guaranteed to be available, but one of them would be a valid target for the spell, and would solve the issue perfectly.

Holyphants (BoED) have 6 HD and heal 1/day.

Movanic Devas (FF) have 6 HD and remove disease 3/day.

[Luccan]

If we must pull from base class lists and cannot use "Well Generic Spellcaster exists..." I'd go divine. I still get flamethrower hands if I want and I like the idea of having the better healing spells. But if we do use Generic Spellcaster, still divine, because then if for some reason I need to, I can still where armor. Though in the first case I don't think I'd have a way to fly :smallfrown: Edit: Actually, that depends if we get domains. Actually, Fire Wings from Shugenja. Not as good, but I get wings made of fire.

If we can pull from prestige classes and feats, there's so many shenanigans I don't think it matters.

[theAui]

A bard has everthing our world needs.

[heavyfuel]

Not agreeing that you can specify "Aasimar Cleric 6" with planar binding, but using a call diagram specifically allows you to cast dimensional anchor on the circle before you summon the creature. Since there's no reason to ever use planar binding without a summoning diagram, I don't think that will ever be a problem.

Though this is assuming people actually know how to make this diagram. OP said we could cast spells, not that we had any other abilities. With spellcraft being non-existent in our world, can we know how to make the diagram? Preparing the diagram is not part of casting the spell, it's something you do before casting, and casting only takes a standard action. Since Spellcraft can't be used untrained, a creature that simply casts spells can't make use of the diagram.

Even if yes (the diagram is described in a spell after all), a Charisma check also break the creature free. Should be easy enough for a lv 6 Aasimar Cleric (a class that somewhat likes Charisma, can cast spells that increase Charisma, can cast spells to boost the check, on a race that has a Charisma bonus)



Also, please dial back the snippy little nasty crap you're throwing at me in this thread. If you're polite when you think you're right, it's going to go a lot better for you when you ultimately realize you were wrong.

Who's being snappy at whom again? :smallconfused:

[Lapak]

Many a time I would have dithered about this depending on uses-per-day, how to effect the greatest good, the relative value of never having to do minor chores again via Prestidigitation vs. the entertainment value of dropping a Zone of Truth on the floor of the US Congress, and so on...

But right now my father is fighting a terrible illness and if I was given this choice I would make it before the entity offering it even finished speaking and rush to his side with a Cure Disease.

[Ashtagon]

Arcane. I could effect real change in the world without exposing my powers and thereby making myself a target or resource for bigger players in realpolitik.

[angelpalm]

I take option 3.

Psionics

[Crichton]

Since the OP said 'all' arcane or divine spells, do we have a compiled list somewhere of every spell that exists from those categories, regardless of class?

[Nifft]

Since the OP said 'all' arcane or divine spells, do we have a compiled list somewhere of every spell that exists from those categories, regardless of class?

Yep, have a look at the Chameleon Handbook: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=135

[Jack_Simth]

Divine.

Putting the Generic Spellcaster aside, the System Reference Document and Unearthed Arcana alone will provide divine spells from the following classes: Adept, Blackguard, Cleric, Cloistered Cleric, Divine Bard, Druid, Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Honor, Paladin of Slaughter, Paladin of Tyranny, Ranger, and Urban Ranger. That's quite a large set, especially if I can cast the spells at-will.

Hmm... looking through d20srd.org, what are some nice cherry-picked Arcane spells that become divine that way?
Alarm, Wind Wall, Darkvision, Cause Fear, Darkness, Ghost Sound, Burning Hands, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Web, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, Blink, Charm Monster, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Deep Slumber, Displacement, Gaseous Form, Glibness, Phantom Steed, Secret Page, Sepia Snake Sigil, Tiny Hut, Alter Self, Suggestion, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Major Image, Detect Thoughts, Knock....

OK, Arcane gets you Lesser Planar Binding via PrC, and that's very strong... but also very dangerous to use. Divine gets a lot of the spells you'd want for social manipulation via less well known (prestige) classes as well.

So... I'd still go Divine.

[Hurnn]

Divine is pretty much no contest here. Even if you had to pick a class (i'd go druid).

[unseenmage]

Practically? The agruements and evidence presented in this thread have convinced me Divine wins no contest.
Though I too would have kneejerked to Arcane just so the power wasn't faith related.

Preferentially? It cones down to w hich one lets me make better Constructs. Beget Bogun and Create Crawling Claw are the only Construct making spells of low enough level to my knowledge.

Trouble is Beget Bogun requires a bunch of other disqualifying spells to finish the job IIRC and Create Crawling Claw either makes the 3.0 Crawling Claw it references or somehow instead makes the 3.5 swarm that creature was uodated to be. The spell itself never got an update so technucally exists as is and makes the 3.0 creature... I guess?

That said Psionics would simply allow for Astral Construct, yes? So option C it is.

[Vizzerdrix]

Whatever one allows me some form of planar travel. The plan should be finding a place where xp and leveling are real things and hoping that just by being in the right place we can then attain higher levels. If we cant gain xp by virtue of where we are from, then we should be looking to gather greater power via items and caster allies. Neither of those can be found here.

Seeing as the playground is a powerful thinktank, I suspect someone already has figured out how to pull this off. Even if we have to trust a planar ally to carry our severed toe someplace for a ressurection.

[Endarire]

I'm leaning toward Divine especially if we say that arcane and divine can do the same thing.

[Yahzi]

Sadly even with at will spells, you'd only be able to help a fairly limited number of people compared to the vast numbers of humanity.
Zone of Truth + TV Show = serious political change.

[Firest Kathon]

Besides all the other arguemtns already mentioned in this thread, divine has the advantage that you do not need to worry about material components. This is of course only a concern if you actually cast the spells, at-will spell-like abilities would not have that problem.

[Jack_Simth]

Besides all the other arguemtns already mentioned in this thread, divine has the advantage that you do not need to worry about material components. This is of course only a concern if you actually cast the spells, at-will spell-like abilities would not have that problem.

Yes & no.

A lot of spells that are on both Arcane and Divine lists have F/DF or M/DF (such as Summon Monster or Magic Circle Against Evil) - in which case, you need the Arcane Focus / Component, or a divine focus. Others, however, still have M and F components despite being divine - such as Augury. Yes, you'll cut back on your need for things like bat poop going divine, but you won't eliminate the need for some oddball stuff.

[heavyfuel]

Besides all the other arguemtns already mentioned in this thread, divine has the advantage that you do not need to worry about material components. This is of course only a concern if you actually cast the spells, at-will spell-like abilities would not have that problem.

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure divine spell also require material components :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

I'd say Cleric since that comes packaged with either a 40HD outsider or a universal constant that is looking out for me in some way.


Zone of Truth + TV Show = serious political change.

Tell that to the Aes Sedai :smalltongue:


Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure divine spell also require material components :smallconfused:

Some do, but the majority simply replace that with a holy symbol focus instead, which you can just carve out of wood and continually reuse. (Or if you're a druid, pick some holly.)

[Zanos]

I'd say Cleric since that comes packaged with either a 40HD outsider or a universal constant that is looking out for me in some way.
Eh, fluff wise that also ties you to some extremely powerful divine beings whim. I'd rather not have to do their bidding.

[JNAProductions]

Off-hand, I'd say Divine seems better. Arcane has blasting, sure, but Divine has HEALING. And just think of all the good you could do with all the healing spells you could cast.

[lbuttitta]

Divine, not just so I can help the people I care about (and others, through magic Tippyverse-esque traps) but also because of domain spells and anyspell shenanigans (if I ever get my hands on some arcane writings).

[Psyren]

Eh, fluff wise that also ties you to some extremely powerful divine beings whim. I'd rather not have to do their bidding.

There's several gods out there I'd have no problem hitching my wagon to. Heck, Cayden Cailean just wants me to rail against injustice, make lots of friends and routinely get hammered - all stuff I do in my spare time anyway.

[heavyfuel]

Divine, not just so I can help the people I care about (and others, through magic Tippyverse-esque traps) but also because of domain spells and anyspell shenanigans (if I ever get my hands on some arcane writings).

Can't create traps without Craft Wondrous Items though

Also, in the real world there is no such thing as arcane writings

[Psyren]

Can't create traps without Craft Wondrous Items though

Also, in the real world there is no such thing as arcane writings

I mean, there's no such thing as arcane spells or standard actions in our world either; some of the necessary trappings are probably expected to come along with this premise too.

[Lapak]

There's several gods out there I'd have no problem hitching my wagon to. Heck, Cayden Cailean just wants me to rail against injustice, make lots of friends and routinely get hammered - all stuff I do in my spare time anyway.
This suggests a new thread of its own that could be quite interesting; ‘if the published pantheons all showed up and started granting powers tomorrow, which deity would you sign up with?’

[heavyfuel]

I mean, there's no such thing as arcane spells or standard actions in our world either; some of the necessary trappings are probably expected to come along with this premise too.

Not sure I agree with this. The premise is "you get to cast spells". If course, most spells (like any spell with a numerical value) would be tweaked for our world.

But I don't think that feats and magic items come along with the premise

[Psyren]

But I don't think that feats and magic items come along with the premise

I agree on item creation and such, but banning arcane writings basically means banning wizardry.

[heavyfuel]

I agree on item creation and such, but banning arcane writings basically means banning wizardry.

Casting arcane spells isn't the same as wizardry. Even if wizardry is banned, you still cast arcane spells, you just don't need a spell book.

[Psyren]

Casting arcane spells isn't the same as wizardry. Even if wizardry is banned, you still cast arcane spells, you just don't need a spell book.

I know it's not, but I don't think banning wizards was intended to be part of the assumptions even if you can technically do so while still allowing arcane casting.

[Calthropstu]

I take option 3.

Psionics

Ha!
Though, unaugmented most psion powers kinda are meh.
Though at will astral construct lasting 5 rounds would be quite useful.

[Ashtagon]

Off-hand, I'd say Divine seems better. Arcane has blasting, sure, but Divine has HEALING. And just think of all the good you could do with all the healing spells you could cast.

Personally, even if I chose divine, I probably wouyldn't make a big deal of the healing thing. Simply put, it's really really obvious to anyone with a modern-day surveillance network that someone is doing something "special" if you try to effect major change with that kind of power, and a little intelligence and data-gathering would quickly pinpoint the source. At this point, you are no longer under your own control, but instead a puppet for people with lots of money and lots of power.

I'd favour enchantment school magic.

[Karmea]

If wyrm wizard/southern magician and such count, arcane all the way. Get my healing and support spells without all that nasty faith and worship business. If not... well, I do want the healing spells. I'll go for the divine spells if necessary. Yeah, you would probably have to be pretty subtle about it (but hey, there are spells to help with that), but you could make life less awful for a lot of people.

Personally I couldn't bring myself to do much enchantment magic and definitely nothing long-term or dominate-ish, too much of a violation imo.

[Goaty14]

Ooh! I choose Anys- oh.

I'd choose divine because of how you could work wonders and legends about yourself just by walking around 3rd world countries.

[unseenmage]

Ha!
Though, unaugmented most psion powers kinda are meh.
Though at will astral construct lasting 5 rounds would be quite useful.

Though I would likely cheese it up and wear the things armor style for our world. Something I wouldnt bother with for actual gameplay.

Hmm, now I think about it there're quite a few spells I would willfully cheese to change my real world circumstance that I wouldn't dare in a game.

Not that this part of me is particularly a surprise but I suppose I should count my blessings that I DON'T wield any real power on this universe because I'm definitely felling a lot of 'Damn the spirit of the rules.' in regards to making life better for my family, and extra especially my progeny.

Heck, just negating our puny water bill would help. If I can get that power bill to go away, or especially the fuel and maintenance costs on the car...
Just having some disposable income again would be nice. Using magic would just be the icing on that cake.
The one I would buy, Chocolate. Extra frosting.


Makes me wonder though, how many of us could resist the dirty trucks handbooks were we suddenly granted the spells we're all so very familiar with.

[Marlowe]

Demonologist from BoVD, has Lesser Planar Binding and Dimensional Anchor, both as level 3 spells.

Thanks for asking :biggrin:

You can't even get into Demonologist until you already have level 3 spells. You won't be able to get Lesser Planar Binding at least until level 8 this way.

[Nifft]

You can't even get into Demonologist until you already have level 3 spells. You won't be able to get Lesser Planar Binding at least until level 8 this way.

I am honored and humbled that you decided to respond to my post before reading any other posts in the whole thread.

However, I think we'll have a more productive conversation if you do in fact read all the other posts in the thread, especially the first post on page 1.

[Marlowe]

I am honored and humbled that you decided to respond to my post before reading any other posts in the whole thread.

However, I think we'll have a more productive conversation if you do in fact read all the other posts in the thread, especially the first post on page 1.


Thank you for confirming the impression I had formed of you several posts ago.

[Kesnit]

I think it's really noble that people picked divine in a deluded attempt to fix the world. Sadly even with at will spells, you'd only be able to help a fairly limited number of people compared to the vast numbers of humanity.

I work with people who have drug addictions. All too often, they are putting their lives back together, and then they relapse. I can't throw every starfish back into the ocean (https://eventsforchange.wordpress.com/2011/06/05/the-starfish-story-one-step-towards-changing-the-world/), but what I could do would make all the difference in the world to the ones I could cure. All I'd have to do is shake hands (which I do anyway) and the addiction is cured.

[Mordaedil]

I want to point out that Zone of Truth with regards to politics isn't actually extremely helpful, because most of the time it is really obvious when someone lies, while most of the argumentation stems from conflicting points of view and a desire to stand up for their specific representations, but I can understand why it'd be confusing if you're only exposed to the politics presented on TV as entertainment.

Beurocracy is a lot more boring and mundane than you are lead to believe, sadly. And Gerrymandering, which Zone of Truth doesn't help with. They don't need to lie to draw those borders up.

[Calthropstu]

... Arcane has invisibility, fly, levitate and fireball.
Divine has remove disease, cure spells, and... bulls strength?

I think I will go with dropping fireballs from the sky.

[Luccan]

... Arcane has invisibility, fly, levitate and fireball.
Divine has remove disease, cure spells, and... bulls strength?

I think I will go with dropping fireballs from the sky.

Again, this depends on what classes spell lists we have access too. Or even class abilities: Travel domain gives you fly. Trickery domain or Shugenja gives invisibility. I don't know if you can get levitate, but you already have fly. And Fireball you can mimic or do better with other spells.

[Nifft]

Again, this depends on what classes spell lists we have access too. Or even class abilities: Travel domain gives you fly. Trickery domain or Shugenja gives invisibility. I don't know if you can get levitate, but you already have fly. And Fireball you can mimic or do better with other spells.

Yeah.

Conversely, with Generic Spellcaster, every Cleric & Druid spell is also Arcane... so the only criteria which could be used as a distinction between Divine / Arcane is the list of spells from PrCs.

Trapsmith spells (i.e. Dimension Door) aren't going to appear on the Divine side.

Demonologist spells (i.e. Lesser Planar Binding) are likewise exclusive to Arcane.

[unseenmage]

Are psionics called out as qualifying as Arcane or Divine anywhere? I seem to remember something about powers counting as their spell equivalents? I could certainly be misremembering. Has been a long while since I last toyed with psionics.


Also, Custom Spells could be considered as well. IIRC the rule of thumb is that a custom version of an arcane spell as divine occupies a spell level hifher and vice versa.
With that in mind its only the highest level spells that limit us.

[Luccan]

Are psionics called out as qualifying as Arcane or Divine anywhere? I seem to remember something about powers counting as their spell equivalents? I could certainly be misremembering. Has been a long while since I last toyed with psionics.

I doubt it. Even if you use psionics-magic transparency, psionic manifestation is not spellcasting.

[tyckspoon]

Are psionics called out as qualifying as Arcane or Divine anywhere? I seem to remember something about powers counting as their spell equivalents? I could certainly be misremembering. Has been a long while since I last toyed with psionics.


The only thing I can think of close to this is the Magic Item Compendium statement that psionic powers can be used to craft magic items that have similar spell requirements, such as using Energy Bolt to create an item that calls for Lightning Bolt (presumably works the other way around as well.) The net effect is that you don't seem to be intended to be restricted to only 'psionic' or 'magical' items as a crafter; you can make anything that is suitable for your spells/powers known.

[Calthropstu]

Plot twist: The one you don't pick goes to a ressurrected Adolf Hitler.

[Kyberwulf]

Just because you can fly and shoot fireballs doesn't mean you can't get shot.

I would choose divine, because it would mean there is some semblance of an afterlife.

[unseenmage]

...

I would choose divine, because it would mean there is some semblance of an afterlife.

Precicely why I wouldn't want to go divine...



Alternatively, which of the options nets us better control of time? Seeing the future would be nice. Controlling it'd be better.

[Mr Adventurer]

Protection From Arrows seems pretty helpful against firearms.

It's DR/magic; there's always a bigger gun.

[Mr Adventurer]

Gaseous Form offers the exact same defense as Protection from Arrows would, IIRC.

[Zanos]

I'd be more likely to leverage charm person than magic missile. Shouldn't really be chucking fireballs at SWAT teams.

[Telonius]

Real-world? Unless I can also get Eschew Materials, Divine. Whipping up a divine focus isn't too much of a hassle, but storing all of that bat guano is going to be a pain.

[Vizzerdrix]

Druid list has animate wood, fish shpe, and wolf shape. Thise alone would be fun as all heck.

But if we are allowed any 3rd party stuff, I do know of an arcane cantrip that will perminately ani at a tiny skeleton of 1/4 a hd. You can only have 1 at a time, but with a gopro you could get up to all sorts of hyjinks.

[atemu1234]

I'm a sucker, I'd go divine because I want to help people. Start up a simple church, start healing people.

[Bakkan]

I'd go with Divine, absolutely. Healing/curing/etc. is just too good a thing to pass up. There's also the fact that I'd trust the Source of it a whole lot more than I trust myself.

[Calthropstu]

I'd go with Divine, absolutely. Healing/curing/etc. is just too good a thing to pass up. There's also the fact that I'd trust the Source of it a whole lot more than I trust myself.

Well, there ARE arcane sorces of healing, iincluding the cure line of spells. You could also use infernal healing.

[atemu1234]

Well, there ARE arcane sorces of healing, iincluding the cure line of spells.

Really? Where? Sha'ir?

[Psyren]

Really? Where? Sha'ir?

Bard, for one.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, there ARE arcane sorces of healing, iincluding the cure line of spells. You could also use infernal healing.

For HP, sure. However... cure disease is harder to come by, and diseases are one of the biggest killers in the world.

[Snowbluff]

I’d say material components wouldn’t be that bad with Amazon, but personally I agree with the guys going divine just avoid carrying bat poop around.

I wonder if a tattoo would work.

... Arcane has invisibility, fly, levitate and fireball.
Divine has remove disease, cure spells, and... bulls strength?

I think I will go with dropping fireballs from the sky.

You can fly with a sanctified spell.

[Nifft]

For HP, sure. However... cure disease is harder to come by, and diseases are one of the biggest killers in the world.

Lesser Planar Bind an army of celestial servitors who can heal and cure disease.

Arcane magic scales.


https://i.imgur.com/t5socL9.png

[tiercel]

Well personally one of the things I’d need to know would be my RL stats vis-a-vis casting stats, since I’m not convinced I necessarily have the Wis or Cha for 3rd level spells. If I get to use my Int for any casting, fine, but otherwise yeah I’ll stick to whatever I can cast with Int as my casting stat.

Also the method by which the magic shows up: if for divine magic, it’s even an option that it’s coming from a deity, the realization that deities are verifiably real in a demonstrable, reproducible way would be sort of hard to ignore. (If the magic “just happens” without any particular source, then skip.)

On that line, spell access: if I cast like a wizard, paranoia about, and expense of, a spellbook is a thing. As others have pointed out, Eschew Materials is practically a necessity for a spell packing an M component. And there’s question of “do I just know/have access to every spell ever printed that is available in arcane form/divine form?” What about Ranger spells or Paladin spells (or, notably, Trapsmith spells)?

[Calthropstu]

Let's not forget illusions. I cast minor image at a political campaign speech and make a hated politician look like a literal ass...
Or lets cast ventriliquism. Yeah that speech you were giving? I'm giving it now.
Or ghost sound. Your speech is now interrupted by the sound of a hundred camels farting in unison.
Or any myriad of other things you could do with illusions to virtually guarantee a defeat for any number of politicians, guaranteeing they can't be taken seriously.

[Nifft]

And there’s question of “do I just know/have access to every spell ever printed that is available in arcane form/divine form?” What about Ranger spells or Paladin spells (or, notably, Trapsmith spells)?

There are a number of different assumptions which could be made.

Core-Only:
- Arcane = Sorc/Wiz + Bard + Assassin
- Divine = Cleric + Druid + Paladin + Ranger + Blackguard + Adept

Core + Splats:
- Arcane = Arcane Core + Wu Jen + Spellthief + Warmage + Beguiler + Duskblade + Trapsmith + Demonologist + (...)
- Divine = Divine Core + Shugenja + Healer + Hunter of the Dead + Knight of the Weave + Urban Druid + (...)

(...) + UA:
- Generic spellcaster = Sorc/Wiz + Cleric + Druid
- Arcane = Generic + Core Arcane + Arcane PrCs
- Divine = Generic + Core Divine + Divine Bard + Divine PrCs


So if you're including UA, then the whole Cleric and Druid lists become available to Arcane, plus Arcane gets all the Arcane PrCs (most notably Demonologist and Trapsmith). Divine gets the Sorc/Wiz list, and that's great -- but Divine PrCs don't include such nuggets of gold.

Thus, if you're not including UA, then Arcane is roughly 15.7x better.

If you are including UA, then Arcane is only 4.3x better.

[Quertus]

Well, this is fun.

First off, I'm assuming Arcane Spellcaster / Divine Spellcaster cover all the basics no matter which I pick.

But which to pick? If you get all the spells, there's no good way to explain exactly how you got them / how you cast them. Most reasonable answer I can come up with is "for each spell, you choose at the time of casting to cast it as whichever class has access to the spell"; ie, if Arcane, cast as Wizard or Sorcerer or Bard or any number of prestige classes if it is on their list. Doubtless there are shenanigans to make casting easier. I'm personally looking at Tainted Sorcerer to make dealing with components not an issue, but I admit that requires a questionable interpretation of how casting works. And carries the drawback of potentially accumulating taint when using that trick to avoid components (which greatly reduces the whole "at will" nature of the scenario).

The second most reasonable answer to how this works in practice is, they're all spell-like abilities, so components don't matter. This would be quite handy but doesn't help us pick between Arcane and Divine.

Tainted Sorcerer may give Arcane quite the (double-)edge here. But let's keep looking.

If I can find a way to cast them, either side will let me spam Sending, Cure Disease, Create Food and Water, Make Whole, Fight, Invisibility, Prestidigitation, etc. Plus, for those who have complained about our lack of appropriate skills, spells like Wield Skill.

But this doesn't give me immortality, or feats to craft items, or to otherwise affect lasting change. And I don't see this giving me the ability to survive some idiot shooting me if I start using my powers obviously, let alone things like a random car crash. So let's keep going.

Others have already posted that Arcane has some nice tricks like Planar Binding. Does this score another point for Arcane? Well... maybe.

Some are concerned about being linked to a Divine power source. But, if Toril tells us anything, it's that being linked to an Arcane power source can be just as fickle. So I call that a draw (for now).

Some posters are really happy about being linked to a Divine power source. Myself, I can't remember having seen a published deity worth anything but XP for killing it, so that sounds like a big score for Arcane.

However, I did say "published" deity. See, if I remember the OP correctly, it said we get all spells. To me, that means not just the published ones. To me, that includes every single possible, reseachable spell.

Oh, but I'm not done. Because that's also every possible spell from every possible base class & prestige class. Just following existing patterns, I could likely get every single imaginable Sorcerer/Wizard, Cleric, and Druid spell of level 6 or lower as a 3rd level spell in some homebrew prestige class.

What on the Divine side would possibly grant me such abilities? Well, probably a god of Munchkining and Rules Lawyering. Like... me. Would I love having myself as a deity as a power source? Um, honestly, I imagine I'd meddle too much in my life, so I don't know that it would be a strictly positive thing.

However, remember what I said about Toril? Well, back in 2e, Time Travel was accomplished via a spell within the stated range. So, if I can find a way to get, not just 3e spells, but 2e spells as well, Arcane is looking good.

Otherwise, I just hope that some combination of divination spells, binding / ally spells, and Sending lets me go somewhere where I can gain the abilities I'd want before returning to this world.

But, if I'm just thinking small? Eh, Divine, I guess, for minor comforts + me as a deity.

[KillingAScarab]

I work with people who have drug addictions. All too often, they are putting their lives back together, and then they relapse. I can't throw every starfish back into the ocean (https://eventsforchange.wordpress.com/2011/06/05/the-starfish-story-one-step-towards-changing-the-world/), but what I could do would make all the difference in the world to the ones I could cure. All I'd have to do is shake hands (which I do anyway) and the addiction is cured.Here's my pick for the best post of the topic.


I want to point out that Zone of Truth with regards to politics isn't actually extremely helpful...This part is correct; we need a version which creates an emanation centered on a target and follows them. There's also this bit.

Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth.So, business as usual.


Plot twist: The one you don't pick goes to a ressurrected Adolf Hitler.Whichever choice wins, we all lose.

[Jack_Simth]

Lesser Planar Bind an army of celestial servitors who can heal and cure disease.

Arcane magic scales.


https://i.imgur.com/t5socL9.png

No, it'll get you killed. Consider:

A) A natural 1 fails regardless, so there's pretty much always a 5% chance of failure that sets the intended target loose.
B) You don't necessarily know what your charisma score is (or any of your other stats, for that matter, such as level, AC, HP, et cetera).
C) You snatched the creature off of it's home plane (kidnapping)
D) You put it into a trap designed to force it to obey (slavery)
E) The spell explicitly includes the line "The creature might later seek revenge."
F) You apparently plan to do this a lot.
G) You only live once.

A + B mean you can't be certain of trapping a given creature, C + D means even the good aligned ones may want to kill you when they break free. E means even if you can bypass A and B, they may come back and kill you anyway (possibly bringing friends). F means you'll be risking this over & over & over again, while G means you only need to fail at it once to get yourself killed.

If it's good you're after, you'll do more good in the dozens of years you act on your own than you will in the couple of weeks where you survive temporarily putting a few outsiders to work.

[Zanos]

If you succeed the first couple times, you can just use those outsiders to beat up any of the ones that break the circle.

[Nifft]

No, it'll get you killed.

A) A natural 1 fails regardless, so there's pretty much always a 5% chance of failure that sets the intended target loose. Wrong on all counts.

If you're scared of rolling a 1, just use a spell which gives a re-roll, such as alter fortune -- that reduces the chance of a natural 1 to 5% of 5%.

But really, that's the smallest problem with your paranoid reliance on game-effects, and your systemic inability to deal with the vagaries of other people.

My plan would not be to summon Outsiders who want to kill everyone. That would be against my stated goal, and also incredibly stupid.


If it's good you're after, you'll do more good in the dozens of years you act on your own than you will in the couple of weeks where you survive temporarily putting a few outsiders to work. Wrong, it'll keep me free, while you are dead -- or worse.

You have no allies. You'll either be forced to keep a few powerful people alive for eternity -- or until you die -- or you'll be murdered by some nutcase who thinks you're the anti-christ.

The best way to stay alive is to not become personally famous in the first place.

Arcane magic lets me help the world covertly, without becoming the focus of attention for the miracles that occur.


If you succeed the first couple times, you can just use those outsiders to beat up any of the ones that break the circle. Indeed.

Another way to survive would be to use lesser planar binding to summon [Good] creatures and ask them to do things they'd want to do anyway. You're not risking death if an escaped angel doesn't want to kill you in the first place.



Today I optimized Arcane spellcasting by being honest and having good intentions.

[heavyfuel]

If you succeed the first couple times, you can just use those outsiders to beat up any of the ones that break the circle.



D) You put it into a trap designed to force it to obey (slavery)


There's no first time since he doesn't have ranks in Spellcraft and therefore can't ever make the circle since it's a trained only skill

[Scots Dragon]

If it gets me 'remove disease' I'm going with that. I have a grandmother and great uncle both suffering from cancer and I'll be damned if I'm not going to take the option that allows me to fix that with a wave of my hand.

[Psyren]

If we're assuming that a bunch of bindable outsiders come with you to the real world so conjuration can work, why wouldn't the gods come along too, or entities like archdevils? It's probably simpler to just assume that summoning and calling creatures doesn't actually work in this premise than to deal with all that mess.

[heavyfuel]

If we're assuming that a bunch of bindable outsiders come with you to the real world so conjuration can work, why wouldn't the gods come along too, or entities like archdevils? It's probably simpler to just assume that summoning and calling creatures doesn't actually work in this premise than to deal with all that mess.

Could a demon native to a different plane planar bind someone from earth (presumably what would be considered the Material Plane)?

If so, I'm sure a lot of them would be interested in having a pet that can cast any arcane spell up to 3rd level, from any spell list, at will, without preparation :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Could a demon native to a different plane planar bind someone from earth (presumably what would be considered the Material Plane)?

If so, I'm sure a lot of them would be interested in having a pet that can cast any arcane spell up to 3rd level, from any spell list, at will, without preparation :smallbiggrin:

Not with Planar Binding:


Target: One elemental or outsider with 6 HD or less

[KillingAScarab]

If it gets me 'remove disease' I'm going with that. I have a grandmother and great uncle both suffering from cancer and I'll be damned if I'm not going to take the option that allows me to fix that with a wave of my hand.Even if it takes a regimen of the spell, rather than just a single casting, we're talking about a huge difference in affordability of treatment and quality of life that makes it worth it. I might go so far as to accept some form of the the druid prohibition on metal equipment, but I might also start requesting people call me Doctor Druid because that character is ridiculous (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Anthony_Druid_(Earth-616)).

[Quertus]

There's no first time since he doesn't have ranks in Spellcraft and therefore can't ever make the circle since it's a trained only skill

Wield Skill. I have ranks in Spellcraft. Although, since I can (sometimes) recognize spells by components, I arguably already did.


My plan would not be to summon Outsiders who want to kill everyone. That would be against my stated goal, and also incredibly stupid.

Wrong, it'll keep me free, while you are dead -- or worse.

You have no allies. You'll either be forced to keep a few powerful people alive for eternity -- or until you die -- or you'll be murdered by some nutcase who thinks you're the anti-christ.

The best way to stay alive is to not become personally famous in the first place.

Arcane magic lets me help the world covertly, without becoming the focus of attention for the miracles that occur.

Indeed.

Another way to survive would be to use lesser planar binding to summon [Good] creatures and ask them to do things they'd want to do anyway. You're not risking death if an escaped angel doesn't want to kill you in the first place.

Today I optimized Arcane spellcasting by being honest and having good intentions.

This. We'd be giving Angelic beings the option to do good in a world that needs them. If they respond by killing us? Um... Ok... :smallconfused:

EDIT: personally, I like my chances better with literal angels than with crazy human beings knowing who I am.

That having been said, I don't put it past the crazy human beings to capture, drug, and torture the angels in order to find me.

[heavyfuel]

Wield Skill. I have ranks in Spellcraft.

A cleric only spell, proving once more that Divine is the way to go.

[InvisibleBison]

There's no first time since he doesn't have ranks in Spellcraft and therefore can't ever make the circle since it's a trained only skill

You don't need to make a Spellcraft check to cast an inward-focused magic circle. You only need to make a Spellcraft check to make the diagram that lets you cast dimensional anchor on the circle, which is not a useful thing to do in this scenario because dimensional anchor is a 4th level spell and thus unavailable.

[Quertus]

A cleric only spell, proving once more that Divine is the way to go.

Arcane Spellcaster, from UA.

Like I said, all the basics are covered either way - it's only the edge cases, and peripherals (like being tied to a Divine being or ideal or some such) that matter.

[Jack_Simth]

But really, that's the smallest problem with your paranoid reliance on game-effects, and your systemic inability to deal with the vagaries of other people.
You are directly calling me "paranoid" and systemically unable to deal with people. Because you have fallen to personal insults, I am not going to bother pointing out the various flaws in your arguments. Have a nice day.

Wield Skill. I have ranks in Spellcraft. Although, since I can (sometimes) recognize spells by components, I arguably already did.



This. We'd be giving Angelic beings the option to do good in a world that needs them. If they respond by killing us? Um... Ok... :smallconfused:

EDIT: personally, I like my chances better with literal angels than with crazy human beings knowing who I am.

That having been said, I don't put it past the crazy human beings to capture, drug, and torture the angels in order to find me.

You're making a number of assumptions here.
1) That the angels don't value their freedom. You are, after all, magically compelling them to do your choice of work. Whatever pretty face you put on it, this is slavery. Especially when you get into things various people have suggested to get around that, like:

If you succeed the first couple times, you can just use those outsiders to beat up any of the ones that break the circle.
2) That they don't have other things to do. You are, after all, snatching them forcefully off of whatever plane they're on, making it so that they can no longer do that good work.
3) That if I go divine, I'm going to be obvious about it. Invisibility, Flight, and Dimension Hop/Dimension Step are all available to divine by various means (Invisibility is on the Trickery domain, Flight is on the Travel domain, and while Dimension Hop and Dimension Step aren't directly, they're accessible via UA's Generic Spellcaster), which really means you'd just be getting hospitals that randomly empty for no obvious cause. Fingerprints and hairs don't even help when you're talking about an area a bazillion people go through every day.

[heavyfuel]

Arcane Spellcaster, from UA.

Yeah, a variant rule. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

You are directly calling me "paranoid" and systemically unable to deal with people. Because you have fallen to personal insults, I am not going to bother pointing out the various flaws in your arguments. Have a nice day.

Yeah, I just don't see the need for anyone to use such a toxic and repulsive debate style. You're not the first person to react to it this way and you likely won't be the last.



You're making a number of assumptions here.
1) That the angels don't value their freedom. You are, after all, magically compelling them to do your choice of work. Whatever pretty face you put on it, this is slavery. Especially when you get into things various people have suggested to get around that, like:

2) That they don't have other things to do. You are, after all, snatching them forcefully off of whatever plane they're on, making it so that they can no longer do that good work.
3) That if I go divine, I'm going to be obvious about it. Invisibility, Flight, and Dimension Hop/Dimension Step are all available to divine by various means (Invisibility is on the Trickery domain, Flight is on the Travel domain, and while Dimension Hop and Dimension Step aren't directly, they're accessible via UA's Generic Spellcaster), which really means you'd just be getting hospitals that randomly empty for no obvious cause. Fingerprints and hairs don't even help when you're talking about an area a bazillion people go through every day.

Indeed, I can never understand the "it's okay to compel them, we're compelling them to do good things!" argument. It's much easier for me to assume that there's a very good explanation for why they're not here voluntarily already. It's probably related to the reason that fiends aren't running rampant - certainly they would want to be.

[Nifft]

You are directly calling me "paranoid" and systemically unable to deal with people. Because you have fallen to personal insults, I am not going to bother pointing out the various flaws in your arguments. Have a nice day.

Your argument was an appeal to fear.

When you make those, you should expect people to call you out on paranoia and fear-mongering -- because when you make those arguments, fear and paranoia are your rhetorical crutches.

This is not personal, nor is it any sort of insult. This is strictly a criticism of your argument.

You decided that fear-mongering was your best rhetorical tactic, and now that you're being called out on it, you're running away in a huff about how you feel attacked. That's all on you. You're allowed to flame out of a discussion if you want, but don't try to pin that on me.



Also, just an aside, please don't become so bitter over this rhetorical loss that you're compelled to follow me around making snide little comments like my personal Gollum over here:

such a toxic and repulsive

See this?

This guy follows me around, soft padding footsteps in dark threads, and posts these nasty little turds.

This poster is now unable to enjoy potatoes.

Don't be like that guy; I don't need a second Gollum. (Honestly I don't need the first one, either.)

[Mr Adventurer]

Gaseous Form provides DR 10/magic and immunity to critical hits for 2 min./level, and Protection From Arrows only provides DR 10/magic against ranged weapons for up to 10 points of damage per caster level for 1 hour/level or until discharged. Sure, it's the same amount of DR, but not exactly the same kind of defense.

Aha, yes, I knew I was right, thank you.

[Psyren]

This guy follows me around

I didn't even address you when I joined this thread actually. But if you want me to provide more examples of the attitude you display towards other posters (myself included), I certainly can. I doubt it would change anything though, or make you resort to namecalling and flaming any less.

[heavyfuel]

This guy follows me around, soft padding footsteps in dark threads, and posts these nasty little turds.

This poster is now unable to enjoy potatoes.

Don't be like that guy; I don't need a second Gollum. (Honestly I don't need the first one, either.)

By "follow you around" do you really mean "frequents the same forum as you have and ends up responding to the same threads on this same forum"?

Also, calling people names like Gollum just because they disagree with you? Really?

[Jack_Simth]

Your argument was an appeal to fear.

When you make those, you should expect people to call you out on paranoia and fear-mongering -- because when you make those arguments, fear and paranoia are your rhetorical crutches.

This is not personal, nor is it any sort of insult. This is strictly a criticism of your argument.

You decided that fear-mongering was your best rhetorical tactic, and now that you're being called out on it, you're running away in a huff about how you feel attacked. That's all on you. You're allowed to flame out of a discussion if you want, but don't try to pin that on me.



Also, just an aside, please don't become so bitter over this rhetorical loss that you're compelled to follow me around making snide little comments like my personal Gollum over here:


See this?

This guy follows me around, soft padding footsteps in dark threads, and posts these nasty little turds.

This poster is now unable to enjoy potatoes.

Don't be like that guy; I don't need a second Gollum. (Honestly I don't need the first one, either.)And... now you're calling someone Gollum. Hmm. Yeah, not going to bother responding to your attempts at arguments.

[Coidzor]

It's DR/magic; there's always a bigger gun.

Indeed. Far better for no one to be able to tell you apart from a broader civilian population by the time any coherent response could be made to your actions.

Either hypothetical powerset is far better wielded as a scalpel than as a hammer if one wished to get one's murderbucket on.

I'm sure with a little bit of ingenuity, someone could get around the pesky no suicide or certain death clause in Lesser Geas, too.


Makes me wonder though, how many of us could resist the dirty trucks handbooks were we suddenly granted the spells we're all so very familiar with.

Why would we, aside from the ones where the risk outweighs the reward?


Indeed, I can never understand the "it's okay to compel them, we're compelling them to do good things!" argument. It's much easier for me to assume that there's a very good explanation for why they're not here voluntarily already. It's probably related to the reason that fiends aren't running rampant - certainly they would want to be.

Whatever that reason is, it'd certainly be interesting to learn, especially if any particulars of it would now apply to one's self due to one's powers.

[Xuldarinar]

I would lean arcane, but it depends on how divine is handled.

In the case of Divine one has to ask:

1. Objective morality or does our world remain subjective?

2. Alignment/Ethos of the being(s) offering access to divine magic?

3. How likely are you to abruptly gain/lose access to divine spellcasting?




While arcane magic, with rare exception, is not granted by an outside force.. divine is always granted by someone or something, unless you are an ur-priest. Sure, ASF is of no issue with divine and there are some wonderful things that can be done with the spells generally available from such, but the rules under which you gain and can lose access to said divine magic are critical when considering the impact. Would followers of X religion gain access while followers of Y religion not? That provides evidence to group X for legitimacy of their faith, while Y group will likely demonize them. Would it be anyone with faith or only those of specific standing? Is it how close they follow the tenants of their religion or is it how close they follow their specific interpretation? How do heresies and heterodoxies impact casting? How do druids feel about pleather?


Divine magic rapidly becomes pandora's box. Conversely, arcane magic can be treated as a scientific field. Yes, religion would be effected to some extent, but not to the same extent.


And yes, I know this was a matter of just you, but divine holds many implications that arcane simply does not have.

[KillingAScarab]

I would lean arcane, but it depends on how divine is handled.

In the case of Divine one has to ask:
...
How do druids feel about pleather?Sticky, if its hot enough.

[Quertus]

You're making a number of assumptions here.
1) That the angels don't value their freedom. You are, after all, magically compelling them to do your choice of work. Whatever pretty face you put on it, this is slavery. Especially when you get into things various people have suggested to get around that, like:

Lawful celestial beings should place a value on freedom, yes: that value being a negative number.

Chaotic celestial beings... Have you read Books of Magic? Forcing someone to be themselves is kinda a thing.

Point is, Planar Binding is a "cheap" way to bring problems to their attention, and let them do their thing.

Personally, the only thing I'd "bind" them to is to is to prevent them spilling the beans on just who I am.


2) That they don't have other things to do. You are, after all, snatching them forcefully off of whatever plane they're on, making it so that they can no longer do that good work.

In 2e, at least, the outer planes were infinite, and there were an infinite supply of chaotic beings (lawful outsiders, otoh, were in strict, finite supply).



3) That if I go divine, I'm going to be obvious about it. Invisibility, Flight, and Dimension Hop/Dimension Step are all available to divine by various means (Invisibility is on the Trickery domain, Flight is on the Travel domain, and while Dimension Hop and Dimension Step aren't directly, they're accessible via UA's Generic Spellcaster), which really means you'd just be getting hospitals that randomly empty for no obvious cause. Fingerprints and hairs don't even help when you're talking about an area a bazillion people go through every day.

Well, you'd probably be the first person I've seen talking about directly "using their powers for good" on these forums that didn't seem suicidal to my paranoid brain. Kudos.

That having been said, there's still several problems your listed plan doesn't address, so all you've done is buy yourself a little time before a more thorough investigator with sufficient resources finds you.


Indeed, I can never understand the "it's okay to compel them, we're compelling them to do good things!" argument. It's much easier for me to assume that there's a very good explanation for why they're not here voluntarily already. It's probably related to the reason that fiends aren't running rampant - certainly they would want to be.

As I said above, personally, I'd not be compelling them to take actions, just using the spell to bring matters to their attention, and asking them what they'd like to do about it.

Not saying my alignment would let me summon them in the first place, mind. :smalltongue: But, if it did, well, my actions would, IMO, be less objectionable than most any other possible use of the spell. So, if anyone can bind celestials, I can.

Now, as to why they're not here already... well, maybe one I summon will answer that question.

[Psyren]

Whatever that reason is, it'd certainly be interesting to learn, especially if any particulars of it would now apply to one's self due to one's powers.



As I said above, personally, I'd not be compelling them to take actions, just using the spell to bring matters to their attention, and asking them what they'd like to do about it.

Not saying my alignment would let me summon them in the first place, mind. :smalltongue: But, if it did, well, my actions would, IMO, be less objectionable than most any other possible use of the spell. So, if anyone can bind celestials, I can.

Now, as to why they're not here already... well, maybe one I summon will answer that question.

Well again, the basic premise is that you get to bring spellcasting into our world. Bringing an entire cosmology in along with that is not part of that deal, nor is cherry-picking the parts of that cosmology that best suit you (i.e. getting angels that can be called/bound but not fiends, or getting both but not gods, etc.) I would suspect that most forms of summoning would simply not work if all you're getting is personal spellcasting ability itself; the alternative involves a metric ton of baggage even if we stick with the neutral setting.

If you assume the best case scenario, i.e. every monster comes along solely as batteries for your own summoning with no goals, desires or agency of their own, then of course summoning is pretty effective. Though it's worth pointing out that the premise in the OP is 3rd-level spells and lower, so most forms of calling will either not exist or be sharply limited.

[Quertus]

Well again, the basic premise is that you get to bring spellcasting into our world. Bringing an entire cosmology in along with that is not part of that deal, nor is cherry-picking the parts of that cosmology that best suit you (i.e. getting angels that can be called/bound but not fiends, or getting both but not gods, etc.) I would suspect that most forms of summoning would simply not work if all you're getting is personal spellcasting ability itself; the alternative involves a metric ton of baggage even if we stick with the neutral setting.

If you assume the best case scenario, i.e. every monster comes along solely as batteries for your own summoning with no goals, desires or agency of their own, then of course summoning is pretty effective. Though it's worth pointing out that the premise in the OP is 3rd-level spells and lower, so most forms of calling will either not exist or be sharply limited.

Several things: one, I find the notion of "divine casting, but no gods" rather antithetical to D&D's origins. What does the word "divine" even mean in that context?

Two, you're conflating several different ideas here. Personally, I'm going with the idea of pulling celestial beings from a D&D world, same as the D&D Wizard would. This implies nothing about the cosmology or planar layout of this world - and certainly doesn't remove the desires or agency from the called beings.

Three, if you read a little more carefully, you may note that lesser planar binding has already been established as a 3rd level arcane spell.

Four, the OP explicitly called out that no-one else got these abilities. Now, this is the biggest thing that potentially works for and/or against your position.

Personally, I took it to mean, "nothing in universe has or can learn such power", to prevent Arcane from obviously being superior through teaching new Wizards. Or Divine from obviously being superior due to "everyone worships my deity of choice, or suffers 'caster > mundane' on an epic scale".

Further, I took the OP to mean that spells actually have the effect you'd expect. So fireballs create fire that deals damage, and summon spells summon things.

But, if nothing in this universe has such power, then the summon spells must pull them from, well, a different universe.

Five, most people seem to assume that magic doesn't exist in this world, so, if you go too far down their rabbit hole, getting the ability to cast spells does nothing. That seems clearly not what was intended by the OP. I apply that same logic on summons.

[Psyren]

Several things: one, I find the notion of "divine casting, but no gods" rather antithetical to D&D's origins. What does the word "divine" even mean in that context?

That's my point exactly - either this premise brings everything in the cosmology with it, or none of it. But if you're bringing gods along, you bring all the Celestial Bureaucracy baggage that comes with them, and binding nearly anything becomes more potentially perilous.



Two, you're conflating several different ideas here. Personally, I'm going with the idea of pulling celestial beings from a D&D world, same as the D&D Wizard would. This implies nothing about the cosmology or planar layout of this world - and certainly doesn't remove the desires or agency from the called beings.

But if they have agency of their own, then your binding willy-nilly is at a minimum interrupting that, however justified you think your cause to be.


Three, if you read a little more carefully, you may note that lesser planar binding has already been established as a 3rd level arcane spell.

Whereas if you read a little more carefully, you will note the part where I said "sharply limited." Meaning, you're not getting any higher in your calling desires than LPB.



Four, the OP explicitly called out that no-one else got these abilities. Now, this is the biggest thing that potentially works for and/or against your position.

Personally, I took it to mean, "nothing in universe has or can learn such power", to prevent Arcane from obviously being superior through teaching new Wizards. Or Divine from obviously being superior due to "everyone worships my deity of choice, or suffers 'caster > mundane' on an epic scale".

Further, I took the OP to mean that spells actually have the effect you'd expect. So fireballs create fire that deals damage, and summon spells summon things.

But, if nothing in this universe has such power, then the summon spells must pull them from, well, a different universe.

Where the summons are coming from isn't relevant though. What matters is what they think of being bound repeatedly, and what might be stopping them from showing up on their own without you needing to bind them in the first place, not their origin.



Five, most people seem to assume that magic doesn't exist in this world, so, if you go too far down their rabbit hole, getting the ability to cast spells does nothing. That seems clearly not what was intended by the OP. I apply that same logic on summons.

This does not follow at all. Only conjuration, and maybe some forms of transmutation, rely on the trappings of a cosmology; the other schools don't, so you can certainly be a "spellcaster" (divine or arcane, as you choose) whether or not gods and other planes are accessible.

[Jack_Simth]

Lawful celestial beings should place a value on freedom, yes: that value being a negative number.

Whether it's "You're preventing me from following the orders of my liege" or "You're forcing me to serve your will" the effect is the same.

Chaotic celestial beings... Have you read Books of Magic? Forcing someone to be themselves is kinda a thing.
No. But it doesn't matter. You're forcing them to do certain types of work *here* rather than *there* - assuming, of course, that the type of work you actually want them doing is the type of work they were doing (not a given - a lot of divine critters are pretty martial, including the ones with the fix-its you'd want to bring in).



Point is, Planar Binding is a "cheap" way to bring problems to their attention, and let them do their thing.

Lots of assumptions there.
1) That the ones you grab will be the "heal the sick" kind rather than the "Kill the sinners" kind. Outsiders tend to be personifications of things, which generally makes them rather extreme. Are you willing to risk something you called killing the homeless folks who shoplift food?
2) That they don't have Better Things To Do.
3) That they don't care about the kidnapping and forced servitude.


Personally, the only thing I'd "bind" them to is to is to prevent them spilling the beans on just who I am.

This is pretty much the definition of an open-ended task. Just five days. If you do the math, it's mostly more time-effective to do it yourself anyway. Remove Disease has a standard action casting time. Lesser Planar Binding has a ten minute casting time. You could cast Remove Disease a hundred times for less effort than it takes to cast Lesser Planar Binding once. Meanwhile, an elite array Cleric-6 Aasimar (maxing Wisdom) with the healing domain can cast four Cure Disease spells a day. An "Open-ended task" lasts CL days. At CL 5, that's just 20 castings. Your time is better spent healing directly.


In 2e, at least, the outer planes were infinite, and there were an infinite supply of chaotic beings (lawful outsiders, otoh, were in strict, finite supply).
Both are unlimited in supply in 3.5. However: In thinking that they're fine with getting called away from whatever they happen to be doing, you're making the assumption that they're not currently doing anything more useful than what you're calling them away for. This may not be a safe assumption.


Well, you'd probably be the first person I've seen talking about directly "using their powers for good" on these forums that didn't seem suicidal to my paranoid brain. Kudos.

That having been said, there's still several problems your listed plan doesn't address, so all you've done is buy yourself a little time before a more thorough investigator with sufficient resources finds you.
... when I'm actually making plans to be secretive and/or deceptive, my plans tend to run 3-4 layers deep. Wieldskill + Divine Insight + mundane disguise + Wieldskill + a five mile walk while invisible + a bus ride to the hub + ...

What makes you think I'm going to tell you the entire path on just a quick forum post?


As I said above, personally, I'd not be compelling them to take actions, just using the spell to bring matters to their attention, and asking them what they'd like to do about it.

Not saying my alignment would let me summon them in the first place, mind. :smalltongue: But, if it did, well, my actions would, IMO, be less objectionable than most any other possible use of the spell. So, if anyone can bind celestials, I can.

Now, as to why they're not here already... well, maybe one I summon will answer that question.
This can still get you killed. Right up in the spell description for Lesser Planar Binding it calls itself a dangerous act. It's dangerous regardless of how you use it.

[Quertus]

Note that I, personally, wouldn't be interested in forcing anyone to do anything. Call them, try to convince them to stay long enough hear me out, let them do as they will (including go home). Hopefully, that clears up a lot of replies.



1) That the ones you grab will be the "heal the sick" kind rather than the "Kill the sinners" kind. Outsiders tend to be personifications of things, which generally makes them rather extreme. Are you willing to risk something you called killing the homeless folks who shoplift food?

... Yes. I'd say that makes me evil, but, in D&D terms, if the embodiment of good does it, that just makes my alignment even more good.

Perhaps "D&D good" isn't what this world needs.


This is pretty much the definition of an open-ended task. Just five days. If you do the math, it's mostly more time-effective to do it yourself anyway. Remove Disease has a standard action casting time. Lesser Planar Binding has a ten minute casting time. You could cast Remove Disease a hundred times for less effort than it takes to cast Lesser Planar Binding once. Meanwhile, an elite array Cleric-6 Aasimar (maxing Wisdom) with the healing domain can cast four Cure Disease spells a day. An "Open-ended task" lasts CL days. At CL 5, that's just 20 castings. Your time is better spent healing directly.

True. But only true until I get caught.


... when I'm actually making plans to be secretive and/or deceptive, my plans tend to run 3-4 layers deep. Wieldskill + Divine Insight + mundane disguise + Wieldskill + a five mile walk while invisible + a bus ride to the hub + ...

What makes you think I'm going to tell you the entire path on just a quick forum post?

Fair enough. I, personally, do not trust my plans to be foolproof; as such, it would be unwise of me to trust the fate of the world to me not messing up.


This can still get you killed. Right up in the spell description for Lesser Planar Binding it calls itself a dangerous act. It's dangerous regardless of how you use it.

Perhaps. Again, I trust my odds better with the incarnation of Good than with my own fallibility and the morality of humanity.