How does a wizard fight an army?

[AmmunRa]

Level 20 wizards are some of the most potent characters in the world of 5e, and in a duel, they'll almost certainly be the victor. My question is what is the greatest number of people that a max level wizard could kill, with minimal preparation, and ignoring wish shenanigans? Assume that the wizard is facing an army of normal, cr 1/4-1/2 enemies. Historically, armies contain thousands of soldiers. Due to the nature of 5e's bounded accuracy and action economy, a large enough number of any type of enemy can overwhelm any foe. There are a plethora of magic items which have potent effects, but for this assume that the wizard is stuck to only their spell slots, and a few contingencies they'd reasonable have placed on them. It seems like the spells which would deal with the highest number of people are meteor swarm, tsunami, wish for earthquake, and control weather, given enough time to set it up. Even then, it seems like that will only result with a few hundred, not near enough to stop an army. What are your thoughts on this?

[Unoriginal]

Level 20 wizards are some of the most potent characters in the world of 5e, and in a duel, they'll almost certainly be the victor. My question is what is the greatest number of people that a max level wizard could kill, with minimal preparation, and ignoring wish shenanigans? Assume that the wizard is facing an army of normal, cr 1/4-1/2 enemies. Historically, armies contain thousands of soldiers. Due to the nature of 5e's bounded accuracy and action economy, a large enough number of any type of enemy can overwhelm any foe. There are a plethora of magic items which have potent effects, but for this assume that the wizard is stuck to only their spell slots, and a few contingencies they'd reasonable have placed on them. It seems like the spells which would deal with the highest number of people are meteor swarm, tsunami, wish for earthquake, and control weather, given enough time to set it up. Even then, it seems like that will only result with a few hundred, not near enough to stop an army. What are your thoughts on this?

Meteor Swarm is the wizard's best bet, but yes, if they're within the range of the army they will lose. Or flee.

They might also escape if they have a setup to prevent dying for good here.


Also, no, a lvl 20 wizard isn't likely to win in a duel. If you're talking about PvP, the winner is almost always the one who wins the initiative. If you're talking about vs 1 monster, well, many monsters can match a lvl 20 caster.

[UrielAwakened]

Can't a level 20 wizard have at-will Fireball or something.

If so they probably do that.

[JackPhoenix]

By using his own army.

What, you think you can get to level 20 without amasing enough wealth and influence to fund your own? Why would you be trying to fight army solo? There must be a reason why are you facing an army instead of commando team of medium- to high-level adventurers.

[nickl_2000]

Can't a level 20 wizard have at-will Fireball or something.

If so they probably do that.

Not third level, they get to choose a first level and a second level spell to do that with.

[JohnDaBarr]

I would say it depends on how much time does the wizard have to prepare. More time basically means more kills for the wizard.

If he can make enough traps, illusions and shock I guess he could rout the whole army without killing many.

[AmmunRa]

Sorry, clarification. I was brewing a new campaign focused on high level spell casters who used to rule the world, and the thought came up in my head of how would one of these enterprising wizard-warlords fight an army opposing his rule. I agree that the wizard isn't really at risk of dying (they'd almost certainly have a contingency planeshift or something of that nature), but I was wondering what they could do raw/rai against a huge number of low level enemies. Given enough time to prepare, they could glyph of warding ad nauseam, but what if they were called out of their keep on short notice, and had to just bring whatever raw fire power (excuse my pun), they could muster at a moments notice.

[LeonBH]

They could first of all cast Mighty Fortress, to keep the army stayed at the door.

They can cast Tiny Servant with all their level 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 slots and have a Simulacrum do the same. Send an army vs the army.

And of course, Meteor Swarm to wipe the soldiers away before the armies even engage, Danaerys style.

[Citan]

Level 20 wizards are some of the most potent characters in the world of 5e, and in a duel, they'll almost certainly be the victor. My question is what is the greatest number of people that a max level wizard could kill, with minimal preparation, and ignoring wish shenanigans? Assume that the wizard is facing an army of normal, cr 1/4-1/2 enemies. Historically, armies contain thousands of soldiers. Due to the nature of 5e's bounded accuracy and action economy, a large enough number of any type of enemy can overwhelm any foe. There are a plethora of magic items which have potent effects, but for this assume that the wizard is stuck to only their spell slots, and a few contingencies they'd reasonable have placed on them. It seems like the spells which would deal with the highest number of people are meteor swarm, tsunami, wish for earthquake, and control weather, given enough time to set it up. Even then, it seems like that will only result with a few hundred, not near enough to stop an army. What are your thoughts on this?
Well... If Wizard had some time, easy, army of undead.

Otherwise, even more simple : cast Sympathy on an object (if you have several days, cast several in case of) targeting humans, then conjure Air Elementals or use any other kind of servant to fly and drop those in the middle of the battlefield. Once people start to agglutinate around, use Fireball or Meteor Swarm as you prefer. Honestly even 1st level spells like Earth Tremor or Shatter
(which you can cast freely per 18th level feature) would work if you put aside the range problem.

Of course, if you are attacked in your own fortress or lair, you would have probably prepared everything in advance by erecting, one way or another, several Large/Huge objects around that can wisthand strong magic damage. You may also have a strong servant that can fly you away so you can go cast it and come back to safety. ;)

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

The same way any mid to high level adventure does.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDO_4aWq6K0

[Galactkaktus]

Alot of scrying and combining it with your mobility spells to attack strategical targets like supply lines. And just let them starve.

[Telonius]

Kill the general stealthily and assume his form; or just Dominate him. Now it's your army.

[nickl_2000]

Well, lets assume that he has fireball prepared (he is a wizard afterall...)


So, 20 foot radius circle for each casting and he can cast 15 third level spells and higher.

Each Fireball can potentially hit: around 53 clustered cannon fodder. Lets say 30 since they never cluster that well.

So 15*30 = 450 cannon fodder level enemies, no question, without any planning and being super inefficient.

That's assuming that all he does it fireball with all his spell slots.


If he spends one 7th level spell on Simulacrum and the they both start hurling fireballs you've got
14*30*2 = 840 people dropped.




Given that Fireballs also start fire, that's going to drop others on the battlefield during the chaos. So, casting simulacrum and fireballs only, it seems that a fair estimate of 1000 people dropped without any real effort isn't unreasonable. And again, this is really poor resource management of spells.

[JohnDaBarr]

Sorry, clarification. I was brewing a new campaign focused on high level spell casters who used to rule the world, and the thought came up in my head of how would one of these enterprising wizard-warlords fight an army opposing his rule. I agree that the wizard isn't really at risk of dying (they'd almost certainly have a contingency planeshift or something of that nature), but I was wondering what they could do raw/rai against a huge number of low level enemies. Given enough time to prepare, they could glyph of warding ad nauseam, but what if they were called out of their keep on short notice, and had to just bring whatever raw fire power (excuse my pun), they could muster at a moments notice.

If the army cannot detect the wizard they are basically defeated. The wizard can simply destroy them from within.

Step 1. Use Invisibility and poison their food and water supply. Simply causing diarrhea would do the trick.

Step 2. Assassinate the command structure by poison or daggers.

Step 4. Use Greater Invisibility harass the army with illusions and flashy spells. After a couple of sleepless nights without water, food, and officers the army will simply fall apart.

[Talamare]

Make a Castle
Use a TON of Faithful Hounds

Oh, and long duration spells are better here than Meteor Storm
So Incendiary Cloud will probably kill more

[SirGraystone]

Create a few iron golem immune to non-magical weapons and watch them crush the army.

Wait for them to enter a canyon or something narrow, and fills it with cloudkill or another area of effect spells.

Uses greater invisibility and throws some fireball at their camp at night.

Send an invisible stalker to kill the officers.

So many possibility

[ShikomeKidoMi]

The best army murdering spell in the game is Storm of Vengeance. Sadly, it's not for wizards.

Still, Control Weather's ability to eventually create Artic cold, torrential hail, and Storm level winds over a 5 mile area would screw up an army badly, especially one not equipped for it (and if they are equipped, make it hot instead).

Barring those two spells, you'd want to force the army into chokepoints somehow and rain other area of effect spells like Fireball, Cloudkill, or Meteor Shower on them.

[The_Jette]

Shapechange into a Couatl for immunity to non-magical weapons, then summon as many large, destructive forces as you can. Conjuring Elementals and other monsters makes killing twice as easy, especially if what you summon has AoE damage. And, even with a million archers, as long as you're a Couatl, the army can't hurt you. It's a question of attrition at that point. Kill off five or six hundred, retreat to a safe place to rest, then come back and kill a bunch more. They'll give up eventually. And, you'll never have to worry about being attacked like that again.

[Dudewithknives]

Minimum level of prep, how about 1 min and 1 spell.

Cast Leomunds tiny Hut, or one of the new upgrades.

Kill the army at your leisure, there is absolutely nothing they can do about it but leave.

Assuming they are in a tight formation any of your big aoe spells should work wonders.

It is only a matter of time.

[iTreeby]

Shapechange into a Couatl for immunity to non-magical weapons, then summon as many large, destructive forces as you can. Conjuring Elementals and other monsters makes killing twice as easy, especially if what you summon has AoE damage. And, even with a million archers, as long as you're a Couatl, the army can't hurt you. It's a question of attrition at that point. Kill off five or six hundred, retreat to a safe place to rest, then come back and kill a bunch more. They'll give up eventually. And, you'll never have to worry about being attacked like that again.

I feel like you'd get grappled into a sack and drowned trying this.

[Unoriginal]

Minimum level of prep, how about 1 min and 1 spell.

Cast Leomunds tiny Hut, or one of the new upgrades.

Kill the army at your leisure, there is absolutely nothing they can do about it but leave.

Assuming they are in a tight formation any of your big aoe spells should work wonders.

It is only a matter of time.

Prettty sure you cann't cast spells that go outside the Tiny Hut, from the inside

[SharkForce]

symbol would be pretty effective. drop a few antipathy objects from high in the air (note that an object with antipathy or sympathy on it can be moved no problem) to herd people into an area you've trapped with symbol spells. you can even have some minions transport the antipathy bombs if necessary. a handful of summoned minions is all you need to keep any stragglers from getting to the antipathy objects (and if you're in the business of ruling the world, you should have access to a few minions).

though i'm not entirely clear on why there should be no preparation. i mean, it doesn't take a genious to realize that if your goal is to conquer the world, you should have an answer for "what if they don't immediately surrender?".

[The_Jette]

I feel like you'd get grappled into a sack and drowned trying this.

Misty Step out of the grapple. Or, Thunderwave. Or, just make sure that you don't get close enough to the army that they can just run up to you and grab you.

[Vaz]

Nested simulacrum...

[Jack Bitters]

If you have time, get your simulacrum out. You probably don't, though.

Definitely use summoned creatures–gate in a Balor, (9th level slot) Planar Bind a couple invisible stalkers (two fifth level slots, two sixth level slots, and a level 5 magic circle). Mirage Arcane (level 7 slot) a huge illusory wall around the enemy (1 square mile).

"I'm not stuck in here with you! You're stuck in here with me!"
While your few minions buy you time, start up and animating the dead. You've still got a handful of third and fourth level slots to burn, so if you were a necromancer, you could get up to 22 zombies, fresh with armor and weapons still in hand. Finally if you're reduced to autocasting second level slots, blast away your enemies with Snilloc's Snowball Swarm or Ice Knife, for 3d6 AoE damage. Consider casting Investiture of Wind (if you didn't create a simulacrum) so you can fly while ranged weapon attacks have disadvantage against you.

You may still have a level 8 slot to use. Upcasting fog cloud is always an option (160ft radius). Or Animate Objects–eight medium objects pack enough of a punch to disable a few normal soldiers. Or perhaps summon another demon/devil–a glabrezu or bone demon.
If you're desperate, just plane shift to a plane with a faster time stream, replenish, and come back with vengeance.

[UrielAwakened]

Minimum level of prep, how about 1 min and 1 spell.

Cast Leomunds tiny Hut, or one of the new upgrades.

Kill the army at your leisure, there is absolutely nothing they can do about it but leave.

Assuming they are in a tight formation any of your big aoe spells should work wonders.

It is only a matter of time.

Can't the entire army just ready actions to shoot you as soon as you come out if you try that.

[Dudewithknives]

Prettty sure you cann't cast spells that go outside the Tiny Hut, from the inside

Oh yeah, guess you will need a longbow and a crap ton of arrows.

[Gtdead]

Wish: Forbiddance can completely annihilate an Undead or Extraplanar army.
Shapechanging into a Pit Fiend. 20 yard Fear Aura, set a couple Walls of Fire and Fireball at will. It must be really satisfying.
Add a Mirage Arcana and transform the place into hell for the duration, for effect.

[Dudewithknives]

How about this:

Cast invulnerability.


Force cage yourself with the barred style, now nothing but arrows can get to you and you ignore their damage.

Nuke, aoe, and summon as you want.


Just before it is over, force cage yourself with the smaller solid cage.

Ritual cast LTH or whatever, take a long rest to refill.


Repeat.

[CantigThimble]

I think a good question to ask here is: how many arrows can a wizard take once the enemy knows where he is?

I'll assume 16 dex and con to overshoot.

HP: (6+3) + (4+3)*19 = 142
AC: Mage armor 13 + 3 dex + 5 infinite shield = 21

I'll assume he's always giving them disadvantage somehow. (Long range, foresight, any number of buffs or vision blockers)

I'll assume soldiers have just +2 to hit with their ranged weapons.

10% chance of 19-20, 1% with disadvantage
Assuming 4 damage per hit, he can take 35.5 hits, so 3550 arrows will take him down, highest reasonable estimate This drops significantly if you assume lower stats or better attack rolls for the troops.

320 foot maximum range for shortbows/light crossbows, so if the wizard is casting something like a fireball from 150 feet away then 170 feet worth of troops are in range and can hit him. If they're spaced out 1 per 10 feet (to counter AOE slightly) and my circle-area napkin math is right then that's about 450 arrows per turn. So that's 8 turns, probably less, of survivability. And getting away requires at least a dimension door. Also, god help you if you lose concentration on whatever is giving them disadvantage.

[Unoriginal]

The only way to answer this question is to define how big the army is, what is its composition, and what's the Wizard's build.

Years ago, I calculated if it was possible for a lvl 20 Champion Fighter to take on several hundreds of Veteran NPCs (CR 3) and win. Turns out it was. But you can't be sure until you've determined all the important parts of the opponents.

[greenstone]

Cast Leomunds tiny Hut

That one is a bit of a trap.

A canny opponent (if you are taking n army to get a wizard, I'd hope you are canny) will first throw a tin of paint over the hut to blind the wizard. Then just start piling rocks or oil-soaked timber or buckets of acid or something else nasty on top of it. When the hut ends, the nasty stuff drops on the people inside.

With an army and 8 hours, you could pretty much pile an entire hill or rocks on top of the hut.

On the other hand, the wizard could teleport from the hut and spend the next 8 hours preparing something nasty for the army while they waste their time piling rocks. :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

I'll assume soldiers have just +2 to hit with their ranged weapons.

Your typical Guard has +3, the Archer has +6.


That one is a bit of a trap.

A canny opponent (if you are taking n army to get a wizard, I'd hope you are canny) will first throw a tin of paint over the hut to blind the wizard. Then just start piling rocks or oil-soaked timber or buckets of acid or something else nasty on top of it. When the hut ends, the nasty stuff drops on the people inside.

With an army and 8 hours, you could pretty much pile an entire hill or rocks on top of the hut.

On the other hand, the wizard could teleport from the hut and spend the next 8 hours preparing something nasty for the army while they waste their time piling rocks. :smallsmile:

It's true it can be used to trap the Wizard. Though, can you actually teleport out of the Tiny Hut?

[Dudewithknives]

That one is a bit of a trap.

A canny opponent (if you are taking n army to get a wizard, I'd hope you are canny) will first throw a tin of paint over the hut to blind the wizard. Then just start piling rocks or oil-soaked timber or buckets of acid or something else nasty on top of it. When the hut ends, the nasty stuff drops on the people inside.

With an army and 8 hours, you could pretty much pile an entire hill or rocks on top of the hut.

On the other hand, the wizard could teleport from the hut and spend the next 8 hours preparing something nasty for the army while they waste their time piling rocks. :smallsmile:

I revised the plan, found a nice way to defend

Now I need a LTH backup plan

[ImproperJustice]

The Wizard bypasses the army entirely by using a mixture of enchantments and illusion to divide the army’s command structure and get it’s commanders to turn on each other.
Maybe go straight for whover is funding and commanding said army.

Hallucinatory Terrain, Control Weather as mentioned. Most major military forces collapse when their support fails.

[CantigThimble]

Your typical Guard has +3, the Archer has +6.

With +3 that estimate drops by more than half. 3 turns is as much time as you can possibly plan to be within 150 feet of the army. Whatever plan you come up with, it cannot involve the army being able to attack you.

Though this depends alot on how your DM rules stealth. If they rule that they can attack you without needing to see you as long as you aren't 'hidden' then this estimate is accurate, if they rule they they can't attack something without being able to see it then a lot of things change.

(Oh god, please don't start another stealth debate here)

[Dudewithknives]

Depending on how huge the army is, the wizard might be able to wipe them all out without having to rest before he is done.

100 troops, easy.

500, sure if they are in formation.

1000, getting debatable, but if they are bunched up probably, if they are just random troops spread over half a mile, maybe not.

5000, you better have a great plan.

[Gtdead]

I think a good question to ask here is: how many arrows can a wizard take once the enemy knows where he is?

I'll assume 16 dex and con to overshoot.

HP: (6+3) + (4+3)*19 = 142
AC: Mage armor 13 + 3 dex + 5 infinite shield = 21

I'll assume he's always giving them disadvantage somehow. (Long range, foresight, any number of buffs or vision blockers)

I'll assume soldiers have just +2 to hit with their ranged weapons.

10% chance of 19-20, 1% with disadvantage
Assuming 4 damage per hit, he can take 35.5 hits, so 3550 arrows will take him down, highest reasonable estimate This drops significantly if you assume lower stats or better attack rolls for the troops.

320 foot maximum range for shortbows/light crossbows, so if the wizard is casting something like a fireball from 150 feet away then 170 feet worth of troops are in range and can hit him. If they're spaced out 1 per 10 feet (to counter AOE slightly) and my circle-area napkin math is right then that's about 450 arrows per turn. So that's 8 turns, probably less, of survivability. And getting away requires at least a dimension door. Also, god help you if you lose concentration on whatever is giving them disadvantage.

They can only hit on 20 if you calculate half - 3/4 cover. Assuing a 1d6+2 damage per attack.

According to my math, with a 1d6+2, and disadvantage, hitting only on a natural 20 they deal 0.0137499999999998 dpr each, against 142 HP means they need 10327 attacks.

Against my Pit Fiend, 300 health, hitting only on 20, resistance to piercing, 43636.

Fun times. Assuming that you are in dead center, surrounded by all of these idiots, you will last 2 rounds.
Assuming max range 320, 2 x π x 320^2 divided by 25 (5 feets squared), makes gives us about 27540 enemies. Think however that they are going to kill themselves first if they try it.


I also found another way to do it.
Shapechange into an Androsphinx. Roar 3 times. Kill everyone. You are immune to physical damage anyway so you can't die.
Damn that was easy.

Hell, I'm going to roar only 2 times and hold the army hostage, ask 1 gold piece for each one of them and let them go. Hopefully they will come back just in time to make some more money.

[Lombra]

It also depends if magic is common and if the army knows the wizard, if magic is common in that world, I assume that armies would be very much more different then the ones we imagine. Fireball alone is a game changer, just look at how the modern armies are versus medieval ones, guns and technology completely changed the way you approach a large conflict, and I believe that magic would do the same.

All around tho, if the army is a typical medieval one because the powers of the wizard are an anomaly, I would suppose that the whole ranks would shatter and run away after the first meteor swarm.

[SharkForce]

With +3 that estimate drops by more than half. 3 turns is as much time as you can possibly plan to be within 150 feet of the army. Whatever plan you come up with, it cannot involve the army being able to attack you.



that's what you said.


here's what i'm hearing: if your plan lets them actually attack you with even the tiniest amount of effectiveness, you need a different plan.

[RazorChain]

The 20th level wizard just teleports away, casts a wish for a quick buck of 25.000 gp and hires his own army and then just lounges around his living room watching tv in his own impregnable demiplane. If his army loses then he just hires another one and another one until he has ground the opposition to dust through attrition.

So a 20th level wizard can beat an army without leaving the house....I mean impregnable demiplane.

[Chaosmancer]

I think the real trick is that wizards have a lot of potential answers to the problem "I'm caught unprepared" that can allow them the chance to prepare.

Also, lets say the wizard casts Invulnerablity, wades into the army with big aoes like cone of cold or lightning bolt, then before the time is up plane shifts away. Now the army has a problem. They suffered huge casualties from a single opponent, and that opponent is likely coming back. And what's your plan for that? Try to hunker down in his castle? He can set up shop and keep a relatively steady stream of powerful summoned or polymorphed creatures, you can't really lock him down, kill him, or anything else. So how long before the army breaks?

And this is only if you can displace them from their seat of power in the first place.

All this said. The true terror of an army might just be the Archdruid or the bard, those guys get some cool toys

[Rixitichil]

The only issue with the shapechange into something immune to nonmagical slashing/bludgeoning/piercing is that fire attacks are fairly easy for a very large army to improvise, (flaming arrows or torches both seem doable.) Thankfully the Iron Golem gets round this. Its recharging poison breath seems quite effective too.

Also, Shapechanging into something with Earth Glide, (Dao?, probably something more powerful exists.) seems a really easy way to escape, and then cause havoc from underground after building an underground burrow/command centre.

The Invulnerability plan seems pretty sweet.
Etherealness gets you to another plane of existence from which you could still spy on the battlefield and possibly effect it if you have suitable spells.

I think the key problem is once you use your resources to become immune to the army, can you cause enough damage and disruption to the army in the window you have to stop it doing whatever it was going to do which means our wizard has to face it now rather than run away and prepare.

[MrBig]

There’s a significant time difference between typical D&D combat - a few rounds - and fighting an army.

Armies take _weeks_ and _months_ to just get where they need to go.

So, you can skirmish/terrorize/demoralize an army for weeks on end.

How would any (non/magical) army feel about daily attacks from an enemy that they can’t see or defend against or fight back against? Eventually, they will lose, no matter how many people they have.

[Dalebert]

The Wizard bypasses the army entirely by using a mixture of enchantments and illusion to divide the army’s command structure and get it’s commanders to turn on each other.
Maybe go straight for whover is funding and commanding said army.

Hallucinatory Terrain, Control Weather as mentioned. Most major military forces collapse when their support fails.

Yes, this. You don't go out and start fireballing them. You sow discontent, suspicion. You capture a high ranking person, simulacrum him with Wish, and start working from the inside out. You get miles ahead of them and disrupt the terrain so their horses and wagons can't get by. You sneak in magically and poison their food supply. You never give them the luxury of a face-to-face open confrontation.


The 20th level wizard just teleports away, casts a wish for a quick buck of 25.000 gp and hires his own army and then just lounges around his living room watching tv in his own impregnable demiplane. If his army loses then he just hires another one and another one until he has ground the opposition to dust through attrition.

Each time you do that, 33% chance of losing ability to cast Wish forever. No, thank you.

[PopeLinus1]

All the best War campaigns shouldn't be 1 v 1000, no matter what level. 900 of the enemy's troops should be fought by another army, or if no other army is available, they should use stealth, and guerilla warfare. In a war campaign it's best for adventures to lead small battalions, take down enemy leaders, taking control of Strategic locations (for instance, if the party is laying siege, they should be assigned to opening the gates, or taking down a general.). If all of that wont work for your campaign, offer workarounds, like ways to flee, or a opponent challenging a character to 1v1.


How does a wizard fight an army alone? Teleport.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

A spell I didn't see mentioned on this thread:

If you ever have to stop an army in it's tracks for a little bit (Maybe to pin them in place for another spell): Illusory Dragon.

It creates a big illusion of a dragon that frightens all enemies who have line of sight and can see it for 1 minute. No range limit, no limit on number of enemies. And in the open you can see a dragon the size of a house farther than an archer can shoot. So just stand behind your dragon and you can halt an an entire army too far away for any of them to do anything to you. This is a basic frightened effect, they can't advance but they don't flee in terror (or at least the spell doesn't force them to).

Of course, that's only the first part of a plan, but it will buy you time.

[Beelzebubba]

The best army murdering spell in the game is Storm of Vengeance. Sadly, it's not for wizards.

Yeah, I was gonna say 'cast Suggest on an Archdruid'. :smallbiggrin:

[Beechgnome]

The Wizard bypasses the army entirely by using a mixture of enchantments and illusion to divide the army’s command structure and get it’s commanders to turn on each other.
Maybe go straight for whover is funding and commanding said army.

Hallucinatory Terrain, Control Weather as mentioned. Most major military forces collapse when their support fails.

Seeming is great for this. An army of gnolls? Sneak around making groups of them elves. Army of Kobolds? Gnomes. Everyone has an enemy. Between Seeming and Confusion or Enemies Abound on their generals, you should be able to cause chaos and panic in any army. Then you introduce the Balor.

[JMS]

Yeah, I was gonna say 'cast Suggest on an Archdruid'. :smallbiggrin:
Have fun when they make the DC 19 wisdom save, with their save of +11

[jojo]

In a fantasy realm where magic is relatively common it follows that the powers-that-be have developed solutions to counter even immensely powerful archdruids, wizards, clerics and bards who have attained 20th level, otherwise why wouldn't such people be the ones running the show?

So that brings us back to the question of opposing army composition. What is their composition? How do they typically handle low to mid level enemy spell-casters? Do they employ spell-casters as part of their logistical or security apparatus?

Are armies even particularly common given the existence of high level player characters or is warfare generally undertaken through mercenaries by-proxy?

I don't see much of a theoretical upper limit on what a halfway competent 20th level Wizard could accomplish, if someone scraped together a large enough group of people foolish enough to try to take a 20th level wizard without their own spell-casting support. People are bringing up all sorts of outstanding ideas though.

I personally like the synergy between Web and Fireball for taking on large groups. That way they continue to take additional burning damage with no DEX save, in addition to the damage they are liable to from fireball. Grease/Firebolt offers a nice alternative against bigger opponents while also dropping from a 2nd/3rd level spell combo to a cantrip/1st level.

An added benefit of the Web spell is that it expands in a sphere, so if the enemy brought flyers they're likely on their way down to suffer some falling damage in addition to everything else.

Those are pretty basic though. If the army has even two or three 1st level clerics/acolytes in the mix concentrating on guidance then a lot more of the grunts make DEX Saves successfully...

[KorvinStarmast]

How does a wizard fight an army?

1. Cast "contact other planes."
Make radio contact with a plane like a B-52, on airborne alert, loaded with 2000 lb bombs.

2. Cast Gate to gate the B-52 from where it is to your battlefield

3. Cast Sending to clearly mark out for the crew who is to be bombed.

4. Sit back and watch the devastation.

5. Cast Gate again, perhaps Banish, to return the B-52 to its original location.

6. Watch The Final Countdown (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/)as your minions (A bunch of unseen servants, perhaps) clean up the battlefield.

[Unoriginal]

In a fantasy realm where magic is relatively common it follows that the powers-that-be have developed solutions to counter even immensely powerful archdruids, wizards, clerics and bards who have attained 20th level, otherwise why wouldn't such people be the ones running the show?

Such people *are* running the show, usually. If not directly, at least with a strong influence.



So that brings us back to the question of opposing army composition. What is their composition? How do they typically handle low to mid level enemy spell-casters? Do they employ spell-casters as part of their logistical or security apparatus?

Good questions. Sadly, answering it might make people realize that high-level casters aren't that powerful.



Are armies even particularly common given the existence of high level player characters or is warfare generally undertaken through mercenaries by-proxy?


Of course armies are common. An high-level character is a 1-out-of-several-dozens-of-millions individual, even 1 out of several hundreds of millions for the level 18-20, while there are a lot of people who can form an army.

Furthermore, an army can do things like guard a whole territory in a long term fashion, and while an handful of high-level characters are good for punctual interventions, they can hardly cover that kind of territory efficiently.

[Temperjoke]

It depends on how much time you have to set up and rest before the actual battle begins. Assuming you have as much time to prepare as you want, and all official spells, I would:

1. Cast Mighty Fortress. This provides a target for the army to focus itself on, as opposed to everyone looking for and dog-piling you.
2. Use Glyph of Warding to create a minefield of explosive runes and Hypnotic Pattern runes
3. Use Wall of Stone to create barriers and barricades to force the army into choke points as it approaches
4. Use Infernal Calling to summon a devil to negotiate an army of devils. Once an agreement is made, use Gate to bring the army in.
5. Make sure I rest completely, then create multiple simulacra of myself, using the variant spell from Storm King's Thunder, Sansuri's Simulacrum (hey, nothing said this had to be AL legal, and the spell is in a published work)

That's the prepwork, then for the actual battle, we unleash the devil army, Fly above the army, with some simulacra casting Maddening Darkness, some casting Illusory Dragon, and using Negative Energy Flood to finish off enemies, which turns them into zombies that attack their allies (since their allies are the nearest humanoids).

[The_Jette]

It depends on how much time you have to set up and rest before the actual battle begins. Assuming you have as much time to prepare as you want, and all official spells, I would:

1. Cast Mighty Fortress. This provides a target for the army to focus itself on, as opposed to everyone looking for and dog-piling you.
2. Use Glyph of Warding to create a minefield of explosive runes and Hypnotic Pattern runes
3. Use Wall of Stone to create barriers and barricades to force the army into choke points as it approaches
4. Use Infernal Calling to summon a devil to negotiate an army of devils. Once an agreement is made, use Gate to bring the army in.
5. Make sure I rest completely, then create multiple simulacra of myself, using the variant spell from Storm King's Thunder, Sansuri's Simulacrum (hey, nothing said this had to be AL legal, and the spell is in a published work)

That's the prepwork, then for the actual battle, we unleash the devil army, Fly above the army, with some simulacra casting Maddening Darkness, some casting Illusory Dragon, and using Negative Energy Flood to finish off enemies, which turns them into zombies that attack their allies (since their allies are the nearest humanoids).

The OP said you don't have very much time, then suggested about a minute. So, you don't get all the time in the world. And, should probably limit yourself to how many spells a 20th level Wizard should reasonably have. All the spells from the PHB? Eh, it's possible. Any spell ever printed in any book? Probably not.
Honestly, the major questions here are: what units does the army consist of? does the army have spell casters of their own. is the wizard in his home turf, or attacking the army's home? and, what constitutes victory for the wizard, and for the army? i.e. does the army just have to force the wizard to retreat? or, does the army gain a victory only by actually killing the wizard for good?

[Temperjoke]

The OP said you don't have very much time, then suggested about a minute. So, you don't get all the time in the world. And, should probably limit yourself to how many spells a 20th level Wizard should reasonably have. All the spells from the PHB? Eh, it's possible. Any spell ever printed in any book? Probably not.
Honestly, the major questions here are: what units does the army consist of? does the army have spell casters of their own. is the wizard in his home turf, or attacking the army's home? and, what constitutes victory for the wizard, and for the army? i.e. does the army just have to force the wizard to retreat? or, does the army gain a victory only by actually killing the wizard for good?

A good wizard is prepared for everything. :P

[Unoriginal]

A good wizard is prepared for everything. :P

Ah, I see your Wizard went to the Lucius Threvor school of always-has-what-he-needs-to-win

[The_Jette]

A good wizard is prepared for everything. :P


Ah, I see your Wizard went to the Lucius Threvor school of always-has-what-he-needs-to-win

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/f8/f8cdc380c6bbee30483e839a7b59958ba0331fc0aaf9626111 ceb6647b82d4f5.jpg

[Tespri]

Just create infinite dragon army and destroy whole plane of existence. Yes... by raw you can do that. However I would like to argue that if wish spell didn't exists then druid would be better. This is why I hate theory-crafting with wizards since wish spell alone allows them to break the whole world.

Without wish spell druid would be far more powerful against armies than wizard ever could be. They could simply destroy every farm needed to provide provision to the armies, by simply walking around as a cat while subtle (yes their level 20 capstone gives subtlecasting, keep reading to the next page in phb) casting spells. Villagers and city dwellers would just think them as natural disaster. Heck you might even get free food from a solider who finds you as cute. In a way... level 20 moon druid could be made into very scary villain. World's greatest assassin and a terrorists. Really only way to catch him in action would be someone having truesight, and that is generally rare thing to have. And even then druid can still try to hide.

[Tespri]

They can only hit on 20 if you calculate half - 3/4 cover. Assuing a 1d6+2 damage per attack.

According to my math, with a 1d6+2, and disadvantage, hitting only on a natural 20 they deal 0.0137499999999998 dpr each, against 142 HP means they need 10327 attacks.

Against my Pit Fiend, 300 health, hitting only on 20, resistance to piercing, 43636.

Fun times. Assuming that you are in dead center, surrounded by all of these idiots, you will last 2 rounds.
Assuming max range 320, 2 x π x 320^2 divided by 25 (5 feets squared), makes gives us about 27540 enemies. Think however that they are going to kill themselves first if they try it.


I also found another way to do it.
Shapechange into an Androsphinx. Roar 3 times. Kill everyone. You are immune to physical damage anyway so you can't die.
Damn that was easy.

Hell, I'm going to roar only 2 times and hold the army hostage, ask 1 gold piece for each one of them and let them go. Hopefully they will come back just in time to make some more money.
Shapechange is concentration spell. Meaning if multiple people attack you, you will be forced to throw concentration checks constantly. Not to mention that it can be dispelled. Also I highly doubt that army would stack together while fighting against monsters known to have AOE attacks. Also army can be given non-magical attacks or provide buffs that give them that sort of attacks. Not to mention that your shapechange lasts only for a hour. The moment you shapechange away, you might very well have group of assassins jumping on you.

[Temperjoke]

Ah, I see your Wizard went to the Lucius Threvor school of always-has-what-he-needs-to-win


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/f8/f8cdc380c6bbee30483e839a7b59958ba0331fc0aaf9626111 ceb6647b82d4f5.jpg

I'd probably enjoy the burn more if I knew who that was. :P

More seriously though, all the prepwork of my strategy was to just make the actual fight easier and more demoralizing to the enemy. Just sending an Illusory Dragon would do a massive job against the army on it's own.

[The_Jette]

I'd probably enjoy the burn more if I knew who that was. :P

More seriously though, all the prepwork of my strategy was to just make the actual fight easier and more demoralizing to the enemy. Just sending an Illusory Dragon would do a massive job against the army on it's own.

He's the Nameless King, the ultimate villain! No wizard can stand against him!!!

[Unoriginal]

I'd probably enjoy the burn more if I knew who that was. :P

It's the name of a character a troll has been spamming several forums with, pretending it's the ultimate, unbeatable villain, and pretending that any method you use against him doesn't work because of X thing he always had even if it wasn't mentioned before.

It wasn't a burn, though, just a joke.

[Asmotherion]

Let's talk about how frightening the ability to cast a fireball is;

-You cast a globe of fire that explodes into a 20 foot radious sphere. That's a 40 foot diameter sphere.
-It explodes within 150 feet of you. All that within less than 6 seconds time, represented by "an action" (you can still take a bonus action and a move action).
-44 Medium targets can fit in a Fireball's radius. Assuming an Army with people who march within 5 feet from each other, that's quite realistic. I'm not going to argue about this comming up in an actual game, just that this is an usual marching formation.
-CR 1/4 and even some 1/2 usually don't have enough HP to survive the average damage of a fireball even on a successful save. A 3rd level fireball's average damage is 28, or 14 on a succesful save.


An arcane caster has access to this by level 5. This means, he can thin the line of an enemy army by 44 people by level 5. That's augmented by each fireball you're able to cast.

I won't talk about going Nuclear, and getting Meteor Swarm, I just wanted to give a smaller scale calculation.

PS: There are other Arcane Casters out there btw who can BBQ people just as nicelly. Wizards are not the only Arcane Casters, I find that slightly offencive :P

[Tespri]

Let's talk about how frightening the ability to cast a fireball is;

-You cast a globe of fire that explodes into a 20 foot radious sphere. That's a 40 foot diameter sphere.
-It explodes within 150 feet of you. All that within less than 6 seconds time, represented by "an action" (you can still take a bonus action and a move action).
-44 Medium targets can fit in a Fireball's radius. Assuming an Army with people who march within 5 feet from each other, that's quite realistic. I'm not going to argue about this comming up in an actual game, just that this is an usual marching formation.
-CR 1/4 and even some 1/2 usually don't have enough HP to survive the average damage of a fireball even on a successful save. A 3rd level fireball's average damage is 28, or 14 on a succesful save.


An arcane caster has access to this by level 5. This means, he can thin the line of an enemy army by 44 people by level 5. That's augmented by each fireball you're able to cast.

I won't talk about going Nuclear, and getting Meteor Swarm, I just wanted to give a smaller scale calculation.

PS: There are other Arcane Casters out there btw who can BBQ people just as nicelly. Wizards are not the only Arcane Casters, I find that slightly offencive :P
Realistically speaking. Ancient formations used by humans in the past wouldn't be used in the world filled with magic, in fact they would have some form of a modern warfare style of approach. Especially since you can send messages through casters. Like group of 5-10 having one high level wizard there acting as a radio.
This fireball also assumes that enemy armies won't have any casters to counter it. Making things worse, it's casting range already makes you vulnerable to attacks, while revealing your position since you cannot subtle cast.

Fireball would be simply treated as modern day grenade.

Edit: I think better question would be... How would an army deal with level 20 wizard.

[the_brazenburn]

Step 1. Cast Tiny Hut, Instant Fortress, Magnificent Mansion, or some similar spell.
Step 2. Use Wishulacrum to spam Fireballs. When the Simulacrum runs out of slots, use Polymorph to turn it into an Ancient White Dragon.
Step 3. Cast Antipathy on your Hut, Fortress, or Mansion.
Step 4. Burn the rest of your spell slots on AoE evocations.
Step 5. Take a long rest. Your Simulacrum does not.
Repeat.

You'll end up with a fortress that the opponents don't want to touch, and a copy of yourself every day spamming fireballs, which turns into a massive, deadly dragon when it runs out of spells.

That should be sufficient.

[Tespri]

Step 1. Cast Tiny Hut, Instant Fortress, Magnificent Mansion, or some similar spell.
Step 2. Use Wishulacrum to spam Fireballs. When the Simulacrum runs out of slots, use Polymorph to turn it into an Ancient White Dragon.
Step 3. Cast Antipathy on your Hut, Fortress, or Mansion.
Step 4. Burn the rest of your spell slots on AoE evocations.
Step 5. Take a long rest. Your Simulacrum does not.
Repeat.

You'll end up with a fortress that the opponents don't want to touch, and a copy of yourself every day spamming fireballs, which turns into a massive, deadly dragon when it runs out of spells.

That should be sufficient.

1. Takes minute to cast Leomund's tiny hut, in fact all fortress like spells take minute or more to be casted. Only way to cast it instantly would be wasting wish spell to it. Which means you cannot turn your Simulacrum into dragon. Hut can also be dispelled by enemy casters, or even disintegrated. Also simulacrum can be considered as magical effect. Therefore he can't walk through barrier.
3. Casting time is one hour long. Also same problem as Hut... Aka can be dispelled.
4. Simulacrum also has half of your HP and no equipment. This means he is extremely vulnerable to any sort of attack.

[the_brazenburn]

1. Takes minute to cast Leomund's tiny hut, in fact all fortress like spells take minute or more to be casted. Only way to cast it instantly would be wasting wish spell to it. Which means you cannot turn your Simulacrum into dragon. Hut can also be dispelled by enemy casters, or even disintegrated. Also simulacrum can be considered as magical effect. Therefore he can't walk through barrier.
3. Casting time is one hour long. Also same problem as Hut... Aka can be dispelled.
4. Simulacrum also has half of your HP and no equipment. This means he is extremely vulnerable to any sort of attack.

I can re-order it. Cast Simulacrum first, then have him guard you while you cast the Tiny Hut.

Or heck, just use a pre-existing mundane hut.

[Tespri]

I can re-order it. Cast Simulacrum first, then have him guard you while you cast the Tiny Hut.

Or heck, just use a pre-existing mundane hut.

But your problem here is that you expect them to come at you, and that you have even time to cast such spell. While ignoring the fact that simple dispel magic spell is enough to get rid of it.
Tiny hut's purpose is not to be fortress, but simply give adventurers fairly safe sleeping place. Which allows them to ward of most beasts monsters and bandits.

Also reminder, you cannot cast anything outside of the hut as they cannot cast inside of it. But they can target the hut itself with spells.

[The_Jette]

Realistically speaking. Ancient formations used by humans in the past wouldn't be used in the world filled with magic, in fact they would have some form of a modern warfare style of approach. Especially since you can send messages through casters. Like group of 5-10 having one high level wizard there acting as a radio.
This fireball also assumes that enemy armies won't have any casters to counter it. Making things worse, it's casting range already makes you vulnerable to attacks, while revealing your position since you cannot subtle cast.

Fireball would be simply treated as modern day grenade.

Edit: I think better question would be... How would an army deal with level 20 wizard.


But your problem here is that you expect them to come at you, and that you have even time to cast such spell. While ignoring the fact that simple dispel magic spell is enough to get rid of it.
Tiny hut's purpose is not to be fortress, but simply give adventurers fairly safe sleeping place. Which allows them to ward of most beasts monsters and bandits.

Also reminder, you cannot cast anything outside of the hut as they cannot cast inside of it. But they can target the hut itself with spells.

Okay, so, I have to ask: what challenge rating 1/4 or 1/2 creature would have access to Dispel Magic? Assuming a level 1 Wizard/Cleric/etc is a challenge rating 1/4, and 2nd level is CR 1/2, that still doesn't leave Dispel Magic as an option, since it's a 3rd level spell. So, it's not available until level 5 for a caster, which I would rule is higher than a CR 1/2.

[Crgaston]

I won't talk about going Nuclear, and getting Meteor Swarm, I just wanted to give a smaller scale calculation. :P

Oh, but it’s such fun!

Given a 20th level wizard with a Cloak of Invisibility, wings (non-dispellable fly speed), waiting until it’s nighttime and the army has made camp...

Meteor Swarm and the Circle of Death spell could wreak some major havoc. ~800 5x5 squares from the Meteor Swarm, then another ~2260 from the 5 remaining slots of 6+level spent on Circle of Death.


Which leaves 8 slots for Fireball (~50 each) and one for Sickening Radiance(~113).

The downside to Fireball is that if all these remaining theoretical archers haven’t been able to find your invisible flying wizard in the night sky yet, the bright streaks of light coming out of your finger will give your position away for sure.

Fortunately Protection From Normal Missles isn’t a thing in 5e, and Counterspell and Dispel Magic are.

[Tespri]

Okay, so, I have to ask: what challenge rating 1/4 or 1/2 creature would have access to Dispel Magic? Assuming a level 1 Wizard/Cleric/etc is a challenge rating 1/4, and 2nd level is CR 1/2, that still doesn't leave Dispel Magic as an option, since it's a 3rd level spell. So, it's not available until level 5 for a caster, which I would rule is higher than a CR 1/2.

According to DM's manual p17. One city has PROFESSIONAL army. This means that every solider in the army is veteran. CR rate for veteran is 3 p350. This doesn't take into account what would be sergeants (gladiator might fit for that and their CR is 5), knights (cr 3), lieutenants and generals be made out of. In fact it wouldn't be surprise that if general of an army would be archmage CR 12 p342. One mage alone has CR rating of 6 p347. In real life comparison when looking at ancient city states in battle. The amount of troops have been 5000-10 000 on single side during one battle, refering ancient Greece city states. Let's not forget priests which CR is 2 (Edit: they have dispel magic). Who most likely act as battle-field medics and supports.

You really think that in world filled with magic and monsters... a professional and veteran army would consists of low CR troops who have no idea what magic can do?
I have no idea where you pull this challenge rating of 1/4 1/2. That would be something like militia. Edit: scout's cr is 1/2. That is suppose to be light troop simply trying to find enemy. 1/2 for professional solider in battle would be laughable.

If you had your own city state/kingdom in fantasy world. Would you seriously build your professional army out of militia and have no magic users supporting it?

[Tespri]

Oh, but it’s such fun!

Given a 20th level wizard with a Cloak of Invisibility, wings (non-dispellable fly speed), waiting until it’s nighttime and the army has made camp...

Meteor Swarm and the Circle of Death spell could wreak some major havoc. ~800 5x5 squares from the Meteor Swarm, then another ~2260 from the 5 remaining slots of 6+level spent on Circle of Death.


Which leaves 8 slots for Fireball (~50 each) and one for Sickening Radiance(~113).

The downside to Fireball is that if all these remaining theoretical archers haven’t been able to find your invisible flying wizard in the night sky yet, the bright streaks of light coming out of your finger will give your position away for sure.

Fortunately Protection From Normal Missles isn’t a thing in 5e, and Counterspell and Dispel Magic are.

There are see invisible spells and items in this fantasy world. It would be pretty obvious that guards of the camp would have them on. Not only that, but instead of tents, mages would've most likely casted tiny huts or a fortress to keep troops in safe from any nightly attack.

Before making plans how you would destroy army that is after 20 mage. Think of how you would form army that would fit in fantasy world to battle against such foes.

[Sigreid]

Greater invisibility and cloud kill would do wonders for convincing troops they don't want to fight.

[The_Jette]

Level 20 wizards are some of the most potent characters in the world of 5e, and in a duel, they'll almost certainly be the victor. My question is what is the greatest number of people that a max level wizard could kill, with minimal preparation, and ignoring wish shenanigans? Assume that the wizard is facing an army of normal, cr 1/4-1/2 enemies. Historically, armies contain thousands of soldiers. Due to the nature of 5e's bounded accuracy and action economy, a large enough number of any type of enemy can overwhelm any foe. There are a plethora of magic items which have potent effects, but for this assume that the wizard is stuck to only their spell slots, and a few contingencies they'd reasonable have placed on them. It seems like the spells which would deal with the highest number of people are meteor swarm, tsunami, wish for earthquake, and control weather, given enough time to set it up. Even then, it seems like that will only result with a few hundred, not near enough to stop an army. What are your thoughts on this?


According to DM's manual p17. One city has PROFESSIONAL army. This means that every solider in the army is veteran. CR rate for veteran is 3 p350. This doesn't take into account what would be sergeants (gladiator might fit for that and their CR is 5), knights (cr 3), lieutenants and generals be made out of. In fact it wouldn't be surprise that if general of an army would be archmage CR 12 p342. One mage alone has CR rating of 6 p347. In real life comparison when looking at ancient city states in battle. The amount of troops have been 5000-10 000 on single side during one battle, refering ancient Greece city states. Let's not forget priests which CR is 2 (Edit: they have dispel magic). Who most likely act as battle-field medics and supports.

You really think that in world filled with magic and monsters... a professional and veteran army would consists of low CR troops who have no idea what magic can do?
I have no idea where you pull this challenge rating of 1/4 1/2. That would be something like militia. Edit: scout's cr is 1/2. That is suppose to be light troop simply trying to find enemy. 1/2 for professional solider in battle would be laughable.

If you had your own city state/kingdom in fantasy world. Would you seriously build your professional army out of militia and have no magic users supporting it?

I'm going to give you a few minutes to re-read the original post. After that, if you still feel the need to ask me the question of where I got the CR from, please feel free.

[Joe dirt]

Why destroy the army???.. take actor feat, get permanent disguise self... use planner ally to summon some invisible stalkers to aid u and take out the head guy... then replace head guy with urself

[The_Jette]

Why destroy the army???.. take actor feat, get permanent disguise self... use planner ally to summon some invisible stalkers to aid u and take out the head guy... then replace head guy with urself

Use Alter Self to turn yourself into the guy who is leading the army, and convince them that the real guy is you using Alter Self to impersonate the leader. Then, watch as the army kills its own leader and starts following you.

https://www.askideas.com/media/50/I-Like-It-A-Lot-Funny-Jim-Carrey-Meme-Image.jpg

[Tespri]

I'm going to give you a few minutes to re-read the original post. After that, if you still feel the need to ask me the question of where I got the CR from, please feel free.

Well his very own rules already destroy the logic of the world. Especially when looking at monster manual at what sort of troops would army have. After all monster manual clearly points out that veterans are professional fighters, hence assumption that professional army would be made out of professional fighters.However, feel free to actually address my previous arguments.

In fact you can create clear comparison to modern army. Where we have expensive tanks, helicopters, battleships etc... Fantasy warfare with magic included in the world would mean that army would most definitely have magic users. Just like in dragon age if you have ever played it. However he wants to make comparison to historical armies, non magical ones. Which makes no sense whatsoever in world filled with magic. Any state that would rely in such army would've been wiped from the map.

[Crgaston]

There are see invisible spells and items in this fantasy world. It would be pretty obvious that guards of the camp would have them on. Not only that, but instead of tents, mages would've most likely casted tiny huts or a fortress to keep troops in safe from any nightly attack.

Before making plans how you would destroy army that is after 20 mage. Think of how you would form army that would fit in fantasy world to battle against such foes.


Ah, I checked the range on True Seeing and didn’t realize that See Invisibility had no range limit. So, good point. But then there’s darkness to contend with... even the best darkvision is only 120’.

Good point also about the Tiny Huts. Although any army that has a 5th level wizard for every 18 troops is probably going to have more than a few 20th level casters of their own.



Mostly I was just expanding on Asmotherion’s Fireball post re: AOE spells. And that in the context of vs LotR or GoT armies, the kind we often imagine when we think of “fantasy setting” armies, those AOE spells combined with flight and Invisibility could be devastating. Specifically against waves and waves of goblins/orcs/undead.

And of course, answering the OP’s question about the efficacy of spell slots. The thread has since (d)evolved into a magical arms race, but my post was specifically not addressing all that.

Wizard hunting is the domain of a small party of high level adventurers, not an army.

[The_Jette]

Well his very own rules already destroy the logic of the world. Especially when looking at monster manual at what sort of troops would army have. After all monster manual clearly points out that veterans are professional fighters, hence assumption that professional army would be made out of professional fighters.However, feel free to actually address my previous arguments.

In fact you can create clear comparison to modern army. Where we have expensive tanks, helicopters, battleships etc... Fantasy warfare with magic included in the world would mean that army would most definitely have magic users. Just like in dragon age if you have ever played it. However he wants to make comparison to historical armies, non magical ones. Which makes no sense whatsoever in world filled with magic. Any state that would rely in such army would've been wiped from the map.

That's alright. Nobody else seems to be limiting the army to the constraints that the OP put on it. So, it doesn't seem especially important...

Edit: So, essentially, my bad.

[MaxWilson]

Level 20 wizards are some of the most potent characters in the world of 5e, and in a duel, they'll almost certainly be the victor. My question is what is the greatest number of people that a max level wizard could kill, with minimal preparation, and ignoring wish shenanigans? Assume that the wizard is facing an army of normal, cr 1/4-1/2 enemies. Historically, armies contain thousands of soldiers. Due to the nature of 5e's bounded accuracy and action economy, a large enough number of any type of enemy can overwhelm any foe. There are a plethora of magic items which have potent effects, but for this assume that the wizard is stuck to only their spell slots, and a few contingencies they'd reasonable have placed on them. It seems like the spells which would deal with the highest number of people are meteor swarm, tsunami, wish for earthquake, and control weather, given enough time to set it up. Even then, it seems like that will only result with a few hundred, not near enough to stop an army. What are your thoughts on this?

Necromancy and summoning aside, the obvious way to fight an army is to attack its C&C: Clairvoyance + Improved Invisibility + Teleport + Mass Suggestion. Done. Substitute Magic Jar for Mass Suggestion if you prefer.

[Tespri]

Ah, I checked the range on True Seeing and didn’t realize that See Invisibility had no range limit. So, good point. But then there’s darkness to contend with... even the best darkvision is only 120’.

Good point also about the Tiny Huts. Although any army that has a 5th level wizard for every 18 troops is probably going to have more than a few 20th level casters of their own.



Mostly I was just expanding on Asmotherion’s Fireball post re: AOE spells. And that in the context of vs LotR or GoT armies, the kind we often imagine when we think of “fantasy setting” armies, those AOE spells combined with flight and Invisibility could be devastating. Specifically against waves and waves of goblins/orcs/undead.

And of course, answering the OP’s question about the efficacy of spell slots. The thread has since (d)evolved into a magical arms race, but my post was specifically not addressing all that.

Wizard hunting is the domain of a small party of high level adventurers, not an army.
Correct, night sky with clouds would be good idea to get near camp. However once you cast spell. Then according to game rules, people will already know where you are. Unless you have a way to subtle cast it, or it doesn't demand you to make sound while casting it.

"Although any army that has a 5th level wizard for every 18 troops is probably going to have more than a few 20th level casters of their own."
I agree, most likely there would be several archmages or near archmage level of casters.

Well in GoT world is pretty low magic. Magic is extremely rare and was dying after the dragons were gone. Similar with LotR where actually powerful casters are rare. You probably don't remember gandalf spamming fireballs when he charged at orcs in helms deep.

However if we got with principle that OP stated. Aka ancient real life army... Well then they wouldn't have a chance at all. Since they wouldn't probably be even aware of that they are fighting against magic user.

[Unoriginal]

According to DM's manual p17. One city has PROFESSIONAL army. This means that every solider in the army is veteran. CR rate for veteran is 3 p350. This doesn't take into account what would be sergeants (gladiator might fit for that and their CR is 5), knights (cr 3), lieutenants and generals be made out of. In fact it wouldn't be surprise that if general of an army would be archmage CR 12 p342. One mage alone has CR rating of 6 p347. In real life comparison when looking at ancient city states in battle. The amount of troops have been 5000-10 000 on single side during one battle, refering ancient Greece city states. Let's not forget priests which CR is 2 (Edit: they have dispel magic). Who most likely act as battle-field medics and supports.

You really think that in world filled with magic and monsters... a professional and veteran army would consists of low CR troops who have no idea what magic can do?
I have no idea where you pull this challenge rating of 1/4 1/2. That would be something like militia. Edit: scout's cr is 1/2. That is suppose to be light troop simply trying to find enemy. 1/2 for professional solider in battle would be laughable.

If you had your own city state/kingdom in fantasy world. Would you seriously build your professional army out of militia and have no magic users supporting it?

I'm going to disagree with that.

Veterans aren't common troopers, they're very experienced pros who have survived a lot of battles. Maybe 20% of an army, and most of its officiers, will be composed of Veterans.

The common troopers will be Guards, Scouts and the like, who will form the bulk.

Of course, there will be casters in the army, and many other kind of CR 3 (like Knights) or higher individuals, but as a rule the typical humanoid soldier isn't experienced or powerful enough to count as a Veteran.

[RickAllison]

I would say that a level 20 wizard cannot solo a reasonable D&D army. I would also say that same wizard has no need to. Teleport is a 7th-leve spell. Meteor Swarm is a 9th. Control Weather is an 8th.

1: Army arrives to fight wizard with only a minute to prepare.
2: Grab a rock
3: Fly up
4: See the heaviest concentrations of their forces.
5: METEOR SWARM!!!
6: Teleport to a safe location using any object from that place.
7: Ritual cast Phantom Steed
8: Cast Control Weather
9: Teleport back at your leisure using the stone you took
10: Ride where you need to since your Steed outpaces anything an army would have
11: Mess with the weather.

Meteor Swarm is to cause intense fear in the army. You display your ability to crush them with a glance. Then you retreat to where you can safely cast Control Weather so you can cripple the army's ability to function. A little time and their horses, their wagons, everything an army needs to function is bogged down. You cut them off from food, from reinforcements. Morale is crushed, escape is easy, and the army is dispersed without further assault. You don't need to vanquish the army, you just need to remove the desire of the soldiers to stick around.

[Tespri]

I'm going to disagree with that.

Veterans aren't common troopers, they're very experienced pros who have survived a lot of battles. Maybe 30% of an army, and most of its officiers, will be composed of Veterans (or others of similar CR)

The common troopers will be Guards, Scouts and the like, who will form the bulk.

Of course, there will be casters in the army, and many other kind of CR 3 (like Knights) or higher individuals, but as a rule the typical humanoid soldier isn't experienced or powerful enough to count as a Veteran.

Professional solider is not common trooper. This is already stated that veteran is simply professional fighter. Professional aka, someone who does it for living.
Guards are more like cops, not experts trained to fight in wars, they are simply for catching petty thieves and keep commoners in line.

[Unoriginal]

Professional solider is not common trooper. This is already stated that veteran is simply professional fighter. Professional aka, someone who does it for living.
Guards are more like cops, not experts trained to fight in wars, they are simply for catching petty thieves and keep commoners in line.

Let's take a look at the Hobgoblins, for exemple:

-Their soldiers are CR 1/2

-Their casters are CR 4

-Their captains are CR 3

-Their Warlords are CR 6

Hobgoblins are war-like and disciplined, so they're going to have their soldiers as well-trained as possible. They're not going to be sloppy compared to other humanoids. Which means CR 1/2 is appropriate for a soldier.

Now let's look at the Orcs:

-Typical orc warrior: CR 1/2

-Orc War Chief: CR 4

If their warriors had a CR that's one sixth of the average human soldier, with their War Chief just one rank tougher than said soldier, Orcs wouldn't be a threat.

[Tespri]

I would say that a level 20 wizard cannot solo a reasonable D&D army. I would also say that same wizard has no need to. Teleport is a 7th-leve spell. Meteor Swarm is a 9th. Control Weather is an 8th.

1: Army arrives to fight wizard with only a minute to prepare.
2: Grab a rock
3: Fly up
4: See the heaviest concentrations of their forces.
5: METEOR SWARM!!!
6: Teleport to a safe location using any object from that place.
7: Ritual cast Phantom Steed
8: Cast Control Weather
9: Teleport back at your leisure using the stone you took
10: Ride where you need to since your Steed outpaces anything an army would have
11: Mess with the weather.

Meteor Swarm is to cause intense fear in the army. You display your ability to crush them with a glance. Then you retreat to where you can safely cast Control Weather so you can cripple the army's ability to function. A little time and their horses, their wagons, everything an army needs to function is bogged down. You cut them off from food, from reinforcements. Morale is crushed, escape is easy, and the army is dispersed without further assault. You don't need to vanquish the army, you just need to remove the desire of the soldiers to stick around.
If you were a general, and knew that these spells exists. What would you do to prepare to counter such attacks?

[Nifft]

How does a wizard fight an army?

1. Cast "contact other planes."
Make radio contact with a plane like a B-52, on airborne alert, loaded with 2000 lb bombs.

That's terrible.

You're terrible.

I wish I'd thought of that.

[Tespri]

Let's take a look at the Hobgoblins, for exemple:

-Their soldiers are CR 1/2

-Their casters are CR 4

-Their captains are CR 3

-Their Warlords are CR 6

Hobgoblins are war-like and disciplined, so they're going to have their soldiers as well-trained as possible. They're not going to be sloppy compared to other humanoids. Which means CR 1/ is appropriate for a soldier.

For a soldier but not for a professional soldier. Don't confuse professional soldier to mere footmen that were drafted, with low training. USA marines are good example of professional soldiers. Highly trained individuals. Compare them to soldier who served in allied army in ww2. You can see clear difference in quality.
Simply put... Professional soldier is already what you would consider a veteran solider.

[Unoriginal]

For a soldier but not for a professional soldier. Don't confuse professional soldier to mere footmen that were drafted, with low training. USA marines are good example of professional soldiers. Highly trained individuals. Compare them to soldier who served in allied army in ww2. You can see clear difference in quality.
Simply put... Professional soldier is already what you would consider a veteran solider.

...

Dude. They're HOBGOBLINS.

They *live* for war. They're not drafted footsmen.

Arguing that the average combatant in an human army is equal to an Hobgoblin Captain is just nonsensical.


A drafted foostman in 5e would be a Commoner with a spear, a shield and padded armor.

[Talionis]

Level 20 wizards are some of the most potent characters in the world of 5e, and in a duel, they'll almost certainly be the victor. My question is what is the greatest number of people that a max level wizard could kill, with minimal preparation, and ignoring wish shenanigans? Assume that the wizard is facing an army of normal, cr 1/4-1/2 enemies. Historically, armies contain thousands of soldiers. Due to the nature of 5e's bounded accuracy and action economy, a large enough number of any type of enemy can overwhelm any foe. There are a plethora of magic items which have potent effects, but for this assume that the wizard is stuck to only their spell slots, and a few contingencies they'd reasonable have placed on them. It seems like the spells which would deal with the highest number of people are meteor swarm, tsunami, wish for earthquake, and control weather, given enough time to set it up. Even then, it seems like that will only result with a few hundred, not near enough to stop an army. What are your thoughts on this?

I think you avoid any fight you aren't very comfortably ready for.

A Wizard is also one of the smartest creatures on the planet. You know your enemy (Scry, stealth). You pick the battlefield (teleport, phantom steed, etc). You've read Sun Tzu the Art of War.

Certainly stealth and attrition are potent weapons for a Wizard. So given enough time, there is little question they will not see you through being invisible or disguised and you can poison their food and water.

Certainly you can probably role play and manipulate the army.

You can threaten the King who sent the armies family. Killing individual targets is much easier than killing the whole army.

Contingency Spell can help you to set up some fairly nasty traps while they follow you.

But I think you make a fair point. You will burn a lot of resources trying to just attack an on coming army and you may not kill all of them before you run out of resources. They should never kill you, but you may have to rest before can kill all of them.

[Tespri]

...

Dude. They're HOBGOBLINS.

They *live* for war. They're not drafted footsmen.

Arguing that the average combatant in an human army is equal to an Hobgoblin Captain is just nonsensical.


A drafted foostman in 5e would be a Commoner with a spear, a shield and padded armor.

Yes they live for war, but they are still different race than other civilized humanoids. Do you even understand how much your whole idea is contradicted that veteran's CR is same as Hobgoblin captains? You know human veterans.

I never argued that average combatant... DO you understand difference of professional army and an army? Professional army is already made out of soldier's who are above average. Have you even served in army? Draft army? You do realize that it would be more than commoner with a spear at that point, since you will go through boot camp.

Edit: Hobgoblins are just like some tribal warriors basically.

[Unoriginal]

Yes they live for war, but they are still different race than other civilized humanoids.

Yes, they're better at war than the others.



Do you even understand how much your whole idea is contradicted that veteran's CR is same as Hobgoblin captains? You know human veterans.

Because human veterans are elites, not your typical soldiers.

Knights are CR 3, too, and knights are elite by definition.

Meanwhile, Guards are described as the sentries defending a citadel and fortified towns.


I never argued that average combatant...

You argued that the average professional soldier would be as strong as an Hobgoblin Captain, and you argued that human cities were defended by armies of professional soldiers. Meaning that it makes the professional soldier the average human combatant.


You do realize that it would be more than commoner with a spear at that point, since you will go through boot camp.

You do realize that's not how pseudo-medieval warfar works, right?



Edit: Hobgoblins are just like some tribal warriors basically.

Whoa.

No, they aren't. You haven't read the books.

[Tespri]

Yes, they're better at war than the others.



Because human veterans are elites, not your typical soldiers.

Knights are CR 3, too, and knights are elite by definition.

Meanwhile, Guards are described as the sentries defending a citadel and fortified towns.



You argued that the average professional soldier would be as strong as an Hobgoblin Captain, and you argued that human cities were defended by armies of professional soldiers. Meaning that it makes the professional soldier the average human combatant.



You do realize that's not how pseudo-medieval warfar works, right?



Ahahaha whoa.

No, they aren't. You haven't read the books.
"Yes, they're better at war than the others."
There have been tribes that do warfare constantly, yet they got beaten up by other warring factions. In fact history of rome and how they defeated barbarians is good example of this. Simply punching people head daily, doesn't turn you into good fighter.

"Because human veterans are elites, not your typical soldiers."
Yes, and professional army is made out of elites. Not your typical soldiers.

" Meanwhile, Guards are described as the sentries defending a citadel and fortified towns."
Do you think that real life guard can be compared to someone who is a soldier? Guard is basically what happens when you give commoner a spear and shield.

"You argued that the average professional soldier "
You clearly don't know English language that well if you don't understand what professional soldier means. Professional soldiers are soldiers who does it for their profession. Aka they be like hobgoblins. Fight whenever they are called to fights, and train when they are not fighting. They do it for their living.

"and you argued that human cities were defended by armies of professional soldiers. "
Actually no. Here is accurate description of human city defence from the GM:
"Defense: The city supports an army of professional soldiers, guards, and town watch. Each noble
in residence maintains a small force of personal bodyguards.

However the guards and town watch are more than likely to stay in city if PROFESSIONAL army goes to hunt a wizard.

"Ahahaha whoa.

No, they aren't. You haven't read the books. "
I just read the monster manual. They are tribal.

"You do realize that's not how pseudo-medieval warfar works, right?"
Clearly you don't. Since this is more comparable to modern warfare where technology is simply switched place with magic.

[SharkForce]

hobgoblins *are* a professional army. it's what they do. they're not a bunch of tribal warriors. the regular soldier is wearing mail and has a longsword and a longbow. tribal warriors have hide armour and a spear, with no ranged weapons (other than thrown spears). these two things are not remotely equivalent to each other.

veterans are professional soldiers, but that doesn't mean all professional soldiers are veterans.

as to marching formations being wildly different in D&D, i disagree. to be effective against an army with medieval weapons (a much more common threat than powerful wizards), you need dense formations. the typical soldier isn't carrying an assault rifle that can mow down tight formations, doesn't have grenades that can massacre tight formations, cannot generally radio in for artillery or air support that can destroy tight formations, etc.

AoE is much more rare, and apart from magic, much less effective (you might have a catapult boulder take out a couple of soldiers and then take a minute reloading, which is nothing compared to modern artillery). unless magic is by far the more common threat, armies will stay densely packed so that they can be effective as armies. otherwise they will get wrecked by armies that are densely packed.

as to the wizard being prepared for everything and always having the right tools at hand... they're geniuses who have gotten through enough crap to be 20th level while being typically the squishiest person in an adventuring party. you don't think they got where they are by not being prepared for attacks, do you?

[RickAllison]

If you were a general, and knew that these spells exists. What would you do to prepare to counter such attacks?

That's the thing, they are extremely difficult to account for. Meteor Swarm can be cast from a mile away with just sight. To block it, you have to block sight, which is exceedingly difficult for an army against a wizard that can scry and truesee. Control Weather can be countered by tracking down the wizard and breaking concentration, but it is difficult to do so when the wizard could be anywhere within 5 miles and they can't dimension door away when needed. Your best bet would be with something like an Aarakocra Corps, that can fly up and spot the wizard.

As for Teleport... good luck with that! I think the Monster Hunter archetype gets an anti-Teleport ability, but you would be hard-pressed to keep a wizard locked down without an Antimagic Field or similar.

[Tespri]

hobgoblins *are* a professional army. it's what they do. they're not a bunch of tribal warriors. the regular soldier is wearing mail and has a longsword and a longbow. tribal warriors have hide armour and a spear, with no ranged weapons (other than thrown spears). these two things are not remotely equivalent to each other.

veterans are professional soldiers, but that doesn't mean all professional soldiers are veterans.

as to marching formations being wildly different in D&D, i disagree. to be effective against an army with medieval weapons (a much more common threat than powerful wizards), you need dense formations. the typical soldier isn't carrying an assault rifle that can mow down tight formations, doesn't have grenades that can massacre tight formations, cannot generally radio in for artillery or air support that can destroy tight formations, etc.

AoE is much more rare, and apart from magic, much less effective (you might have a catapult boulder take out a couple of soldiers and then take a minute reloading, which is nothing compared to modern artillery). unless magic is by far the more common threat, armies will stay densely packed so that they can be effective as armies. otherwise they will get wrecked by armies that are densely packed.

as to the wizard being prepared for everything and always having the right tools at hand... they're geniuses who have gotten through enough crap to be 20th level while being typically the squishiest person in an adventuring party. you don't think they got where they are by not being prepared for attacks, do you?
"Hobgoblins train to fight with a variety of weapons, and have great skill at crafting arms, armor, siege engines, and other. military devices. Organized and disciplined, they take exceptional care of their weapons, armor, and personal possessions. They favor the bold colors associated with their tribes, and trim their often-elaborate uniforms with blood-red piping and leather dyed black. "
-Monster manual p.185

They are tribal. Just because they like warfare, doesn't make them any less tribal.

"veterans are professional soldiers, but that doesn't mean all professional soldiers are veterans."
Generally in professional armies, the moment you become "veteran" in said army. Is when you get higher rank. Like sergeant or captain. However make no doubt... professional soldiers are generally veterans, and new ones go through training hard enough to qualify them as veterans when compared to normal soldier.

"to be effective against an army with medieval weapons (a much more common threat than powerful wizards), you need dense formations. "
D&D world is generally high magic world. Wizards are not rare. Dense formations would be foolish thing to do, especially when you have to deal with monsters.

"cannot generally radio in for artillery or air support that can destroy tight formations,"
That's why they have wizards that does that.

"as to the wizard being prepared for everything and always having the right tools at hand... they're geniuses who have gotten through enough crap to be 20th level while being typically the squishiest person in an adventuring party. you don't think they got where they are by not being prepared for attacks, do you? "
They still have meager 20 intelligence. Lot of demons and monsters go higher than that. They aren't all mighty gods. You're trying to turn wizard into Batman who has infinite prep time for everything.

[Tespri]

That's the thing, they are extremely difficult to account for. Meteor Swarm can be cast from a mile away with just sight. To block it, you have to block sight, which is exceedingly difficult for an army against a wizard that can scry and truesee. Control Weather can be countered by tracking down the wizard and breaking concentration, but it is difficult to do so when the wizard could be anywhere within 5 miles and they can't dimension door away when needed. Your best bet would be with something like an Aarakocra Corps, that can fly up and spot the wizard.

As for Teleport... good luck with that! I think the Monster Hunter archetype gets an anti-Teleport ability, but you would be hard-pressed to keep a wizard locked down without an Antimagic Field or similar.

Squad of rogues/wizards scouting far ahead. They can feeblemind, counter spell, restrain etc... This is how it was done in real life as well. Usually there were scouts in securing the movement of the army.

[the_brazenburn]

Squad of rogues/wizards scouting far ahead. They can feeblemind, counter spell, restrain etc... This is how it was done in real life as well. Usually there were scouts in securing the movement of the army.

Feeblemind is an eight level spell. Anybody who can cast eighth level spells is not going to be a scout.

[Tespri]

Feeblemind is an eight level spell. Anybody who can cast eighth level spells is not going to be a scout.

One example out of many, there are tons of spells that allow you to control your opponent. However, why wouldn't you do such thing? Sounds like good strategy to catch insane wizard trying to fry people randomly.
Edit: In rome noble's became cavalry and usually scouts were made out of cavalry units.

[RickAllison]

One example out of many, there are tons of spells that allow you to control your opponent. However, why wouldn't you do such thing? Sounds like good strategy to catch insane wizard trying to fry people randomly.

Even Counterspell is a 3rd-level spell. Scouts? They are CR 1/2. Scouts that can do the things you are talking about are not military scouts, they are adventurers. And we know how adventurers handle archmages. Branching into that discussion defeats literally the point of the thread.

[the_brazenburn]

One example out of many, there are tons of spells that allow you to control your opponent. However, why wouldn't you do such thing? Sounds like good strategy to catch insane wizard trying to fry people randomly.

The only person who would have the authority to command a 15th level wizard is a higher level NPC, which would generally be an adventurer. Such a scenario is unlikely, and in that circumstance an army would not be required. More likely, said scouting wizard would be a general or high-ranking officer of the army as a whole, and human generals, as a rule, do not risk themselves in the direct line of battle.

[RickAllison]

The only person who would have the authority to command a 15th level wizard is a higher level NPC, which would generally be an adventurer. Such a scenario is unlikely, and in that circumstance an army would not be required. More likely, said scouting wizard would be a general or high-ranking officer of the army as a whole, and human generals, as a rule, do not risk themselves in the direct line of battle.

Not just the frontlines, but the scouting force. The people who are expected to go out with 0 support.

[Tespri]

Even Counterspell is a 3rd-level spell. Scouts? They are CR 1/2. Scouts that can do the things you are talking about are not military scouts, they are adventurers. And we know how adventurers handle archmages. Branching into that discussion defeats literally the point of the thread.

scouts in manual. However as military leader, would you use such scouts when you know that you're against high magic user? It's starting to look like this conversation is going toward wizard fanboyism. Where people are trying to make them appear as living gods who cannot be killed. Just like that "nameless king" thread.

[Tespri]

The only person who would have the authority to command a 15th level wizard is a higher level NPC, which would generally be an adventurer. Such a scenario is unlikely, and in that circumstance an army would not be required. More likely, said scouting wizard would be a general or high-ranking officer of the army as a whole, and human generals, as a rule, do not risk themselves in the direct line of battle.

There would be no armies in D&D if they didn't have competent magic users in their ranks. Because it would be pointless to have an army if one person could just destroy it by looking at it.

Here is a tactic for you. Group of stealthy units approach and try to locate target. Once target is found, you will send your highest level wizard squad to take out insane wizard. Surgical strike, just like in real life.

[The_Jette]

There's a lot of argument going on here that assumes the world is high magic. But, from what I can tell, 5th edition is specifically the opposite. There are far fewer magic items available. It even says in the book that it's possible to go from level 1 to level 20 without ever encountering, or needing, a magic item. And, magic users are much less prevalent due to the magic plague that killed off so many of the magic users. Those left from before are mostly insane. So, we should be faced with a world that doesn't really have magic as a fallback. Therefore, the armies should be trained to face other armies, instead of magic users. Or, have I missed something? I'm fairly certain the main setting of 5e isn't Eberron.

[Tespri]

There's a lot of argument going on here that assumes the world is high magic. But, from what I can tell, 5th edition is specifically the opposite. There are far fewer magic items available. It even says in the book that it's possible to go from level 1 to level 20 without ever encountering, or needing, a magic item. And, magic users are much less prevalent due to the magic plague that killed off so many of the magic users. Those left from before are mostly insane. So, we should be faced with a world that doesn't really have magic as a fallback. Therefore, the armies should be trained to face other armies, instead of magic users. Or, have I missed something? I'm fairly certain the main setting of 5e isn't Eberron.

If it's high enough to have level 20 wizard. Then it's high enough for other magic users as well. Also there are divine casters as well. Yes you are missing a lot. Especially since there are monsters that alone can wipe out your carefully stacked armies. Heck dragonborns would actually own the whole world in this set-up of yours. Due their racial ability to do AOE damage to stacked enemies.

Edit: Also last time I checked, the DnD world especially in it's games. Have lot of magic users, even guilds for them.

[Unoriginal]

There have been tribes that do warfare constantly, yet they got beaten up by other warring factions. In fact history of rome and how they defeated barbarians is good example of this. Simply punching people head daily, doesn't turn you into good fighter.

No, being disciplined troops with good training, equipment and command structure does.

Stop pretending that the hobgoblins are barbarians, everyone knows it's not true.



Guard is basically what happens when you give commoner a spear and shield.

No. Please look at the statblocks before trying to argue.



Professional soldiers are soldiers who does it for their profession. Aka they be like hobgoblins. Fight whenever they are called to fights, and train when they are not fighting. They do it for their living.

So let me get this straight. You're arguing that professional soldiers behave like Hobgoblins, but that hobgoblins aren't professional soldiers?


The city supports an army of professional soldiers, guards, and town watch.

AKA the army is composed of all those people.


However the guards and town watch are more than likely to stay in city if PROFESSIONAL army goes to hunt a wizard.

You mean the professional soldiers who compose a small part of the army?


I just read the monster manual. They are tribal.


"Hobgoblins train to fight with a variety of weapons, and have great skill at crafting arms, armor, siege engines, and other. military devices. Organized and disciplined, they take exceptional care of their weapons, armor, and personal possessions. They favor the bold colors associated with their tribes, and trim their often-elaborate uniforms with blood-red piping and leather dyed black. "
-Monster manual p.185

They are tribal. Just because they like warfare, doesn't make them any less tribal.


Yeah, I'm sure that "tribal" means "have great training, have great skills at crafting and taking care of armor, weapons and siege engines, are very disciplined and organized, and have an elaborate command structure."

That they live in tribes doesn't make them less competent soldiers.

[The_Jette]

If it's high enough to have level 20 wizard. Then it's high enough for other magic users as well. Also there are divine casters as well. Yes you are missing a lot. Especially since there are monsters that alone can wipe out your carefully stacked armies. Heck dragonborns would actually own the whole world in this set-up of yours. Due their racial ability to do AOE damage to stacked enemies.

Edit: Also last time I checked, the DnD world especially in it's games. Have lot of magic users, even guilds for them.

Having a high level wizard doesn't mean you have lots of high level wizards. And, extrapolating that data about the world from a single entry about a level 20 wizard against an army of... you know what, it doesn't matter. You go ahead and assume that there's as much magic in the world as you want. The post has been derailed since the word go.

[Unoriginal]

There's a lot of argument going on here that assumes the world is high magic. But, from what I can tell, 5th edition is specifically the opposite. There are far fewer magic items available. It even says in the book that it's possible to go from level 1 to level 20 without ever encountering, or needing, a magic item. And, magic users are much less prevalent due to the magic plague that killed off so many of the magic users. Those left from before are mostly insane. So, we should be faced with a world that doesn't really have magic as a fallback. Therefore, the armies should be trained to face other armies, instead of magic users. Or, have I missed something? I'm fairly certain the main setting of 5e isn't Eberron.


If it's high enough to have level 20 wizard. Then it's high enough for other magic users as well. Also there are divine casters as well. Yes you are missing a lot. Especially since there are monsters that alone can wipe out your carefully stacked armies. Heck dragonborns would actually own the whole world in this set-up of yours. Due their racial ability to do AOE damage to stacked enemies.

Edit: Also last time I checked, the DnD world especially in it's games. Have lot of magic users, even guilds for them.

In 5e, magic users are not common, but not extremely rare either. Most towns would probably have at least one or two, major cities can have a couple dozen or the like.

[Tespri]

No, being disciplined troops with good training, equipment and command structure does.

Stop pretending that the hobgoblins are barbarians, everyone knows it's not true.




No. Please look at the statblocks before trying to argue.




So let me get this straight. You're arguing that professional soldiers behave like Hobgoblins, but that hobgoblins aren't professional soldiers?



AKA the army is composed of all those people.



You mean the professional soldiers who compose a small part of the army?





Yeah, I'm sure that "tribal" means "have great training, have great skills at crafting and taking care of armor, weapons and siege engines, are very disciplined and organized, and have an elaborate command structure."

That they live in tribes doesn't make them less competent soldiers.

"Stop pretending that the hobgoblins are barbarians, everyone knows it's not true."
Nothing you said before means that they cannot be tribals. Monster manual states it clearly. They are tribal. You're arguing against wizards of the coast.

"No. Please look at the statblocks before trying to argue."
Says guy who insists that book written by wizard of the coast is wrong about creatures they designed. Also stat blocks clearly states that they include city watch. Guards are no where comparable to actual soldier.

"So let me get this straight. You're arguing that professional soldiers behave like Hobgoblins, but that hobgoblins aren't professional soldiers?"
I never said they aren't professional. I'm saying that professional soldiers are made out of elite units. Veterans and highly trained units.

"AKA the army is composed of all those people."
Guards and town watch is not army. Or are you going to tell me that that a guard in shop near by my house is professional soldier?

"Yeah, I'm sure that "tribal" means "have great training, have great skills at crafting and taking care of armor, weapons and siege engines, are very disciplined and organized, and have an elaborate command structure.""
Yeah you sure don't know what word tribal even means and you ignored the later parts which points out that they are tribal.

[Tespri]

Having a high level wizard doesn't mean you have lots of high level wizards. And, extrapolating that data about the world from a single entry about a level 20 wizard against an army of... you know what, it doesn't matter. You go ahead and assume that there's as much magic in the world as you want. The post has been derailed since the word go.

It would be weird to have a state that has no high level wizard serving in army. Or at least assisting it. One of the most strongest weapon state can have and for some reason they wouldn't use it. They wouldn't use a being who can turn your commoner into a dragon. If we would be talking about town or village, then you would have a point. But city state not having a high level wizard? Or divine caster?

[Cl0001]

Well at level 20 a wizard could have any spell they want. They’d also be able to cast 2 spells an infinite amount of times. But in either case, it’d probably be spamming mass effect spells or high level conjuration spells. Then teleporting away/casting shield when the other army gets too close.

[Unoriginal]

On the subject of Hobgoblins:


A hobgoblin lair resembles nothing so much as a military base. It is always well guarded, whether by lone sentries perched in trees or a stone tower with a full garrison of troops. As space permits, large areas are dedicated for use as training grounds, marshaling fields, target ranges, combat arenas, and similar facilities for the practice of warfare. Monuments, typically statues and pillars, are erected around these areas to remind the legion of past glories.

Every legion's headquarters includes a command center where the warlord meets with banner leaders and others of high rank. Inside the complex or somewhere near it is the Way to Glory-a road, river, tunnel, or valley on either side of which the honored dead are interred, each burial site complete with a description of the banner, rank, and glories of its occupant. The quarters for troops are austere but sufficient, as are the necessary stables and dens to hold the legion's animals and beasts. Legions that have need of such amenities also set aside space for a library, which can double as a school and training facility for spellcasters. If a hobgoblin lair has a prison, it's usually a small onemiscreants are incarcerated for only a short time before facing the hobgoblins' harsh justice

Because you know, not professional soldiers.



Guards and town watch is not army. Or are you going to tell me that that a guard in shop near by my house is professional soldier?

"Guards include members of a city watch, sentries in a citadel or fortified town, and the bodyguards of merchants and nobles."

"Sentry: A soldier stationed to keep guard or to control access to a place. "

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sentry

[the_brazenburn]

On the subject of Hobgoblins:



Because you know, not professional soldiers.

I agree with Unoriginal. Volo's Guide and the MM itself both state quite explicitly that hobgoblins are not just professional soldiers, but the professional soldiers.

[RazDelacroix]

Wow, so there are a load of comments here with a load of numbers, and a load of opinions going every-which-way. While yes, I did read all of it, I think we might be missing something here. We all love D&D, and wizards are awesome through actions with intelligence.

For those who require a setup/explanation of the army hell-bent on killing a wizard, I present the following scenario.

In the non-magical land of Mundalania, there is word of some witchcraft going on in the noble land of Anvilania. Specifically that said witchcrafty person is getting their filthy charlatan mitts on some fine noble person (lady or lord, either works) and thus Mundalania prepares to go to war! They wanted THEIR filthy mitts on the heir to the noble throne of Anvilania! Also these rumors of magic are probably the silly superstitious rumors of silly stupid peasants! Just take an army, kill one heretic, perform-unspeakable-acts, go home and wallow in riches!

Now, our wizard whom is 20th level, decided to go on vacation to the Prime World of Somewhereelse, and had to use some magic to help out a minor situation. Next thing they know, SURPRISE! YOU'RE MARRIED! And now you wake up, just had your coffee, just did some light spellbook reviewing, and you take in the view from the balcony at the beautiful countryside and, GASP! AN ARMY IS ALMOST AT THE GATES! For reasons!

How does a wizard fight a historically functional army that does not believe they are fighting a wizard? Traditionally of course!

Abjuration: Raise the defenses and send back the storms of arrows!
Conjuration: Bring forth the fuzzy-animal-apocolypse! May or may not be fiendish.
Divination: The general rolled a 20 on their check to inspire the troops? Turn it into a 1.
Enchantment: And that's how you convinced the entire army to take a nap, while the good general started to remember that they are sheep.
Evocation: A faithful re-enactment of the Death Star's party laser.
Illusion: Convince the general that they are back in college, AND THEY'RE LATE FOR THE TEST!
Transmutation: Stone to Magma.
Bladesinger: Challenge the leader to a duel/dance-off.
War Mage: Shed a tear of happiness as your day has finally come.

My point is, we can argue the minutiae of the situation till RagnarokN'Roll 2020 comes around, but I personally for this thread more interested in STYLE! Do we bring in our airship to bombard hapless hoplites with loogies? Do we animate boulders to roll over the competition? Can we convince the DM to let us perform a Badass Boast without interruption?

You are a 20th level wizard, and some army came at your door. Have fun!

[SharkForce]

"Hobgoblins train to fight with a variety of weapons, and have great skill at crafting arms, armor, siege engines, and other. military devices. Organized and disciplined, they take exceptional care of their weapons, armor, and personal possessions. They favor the bold colors associated with their tribes, and trim their often-elaborate uniforms with blood-red piping and leather dyed black. "
-Monster manual p.185

They are tribal. Just because they like warfare, doesn't make them any less tribal.

"veterans are professional soldiers, but that doesn't mean all professional soldiers are veterans."
Generally in professional armies, the moment you become "veteran" in said army. Is when you get higher rank. Like sergeant or captain. However make no doubt... professional soldiers are generally veterans, and new ones go through training hard enough to qualify them as veterans when compared to normal soldier.

"to be effective against an army with medieval weapons (a much more common threat than powerful wizards), you need dense formations. "
D&D world is generally high magic world. Wizards are not rare. Dense formations would be foolish thing to do, especially when you have to deal with monsters.

"cannot generally radio in for artillery or air support that can destroy tight formations,"
That's why they have wizards that does that.

"as to the wizard being prepared for everything and always having the right tools at hand... they're geniuses who have gotten through enough crap to be 20th level while being typically the squishiest person in an adventuring party. you don't think they got where they are by not being prepared for attacks, do you? "
They still have meager 20 intelligence. Lot of demons and monsters go higher than that. They aren't all mighty gods. You're trying to turn wizard into Batman who has infinite prep time for everything.

yes, they have tribes. no, they are not just a bunch of tribal warriors. they are organized and disciplined. they are professional soldiers. and no, veteran doesn't mean you've been promoted. veteran means you've got actual experience doing your job. generally speaking, veterans typically only form the majority of armies that have been actively fighting, and winning the great majority of the time (losing the fights tends to result in large portions of your army leaving, dying, or being wounded and unable to fight). some marines are veterans. probably a greater portion of their sergeants are veterans, because experience is a handy thing for a sergeant to have. but no, not all marines are veterans, and it has absolutely zilch to do with your rank. being a professional soldier does not make you a veteran, it just makes that your full-time job. just like a veteran in the field of marketing is someone who has a lot of experience with marketing, while someone just starting off, in spite of being a professional in the field, is not a veteran no matter how much it is their full time job.

wizards *are* rare, by default. furthermore, the danger of getting hit by a fireball is much smaller than the danger of the wizard being shot to bits by archers, which have a range FOUR TIMES as long as the range of fireball. some moron walking around casting fireball is not a threat to a typical army in 5e, they're just a pincushion waiting to happen. we've already discussed the strategy of getting close enough to cast fireball, and it is a spectacularly stupid idea. additionally, the great majority of monsters also do not have AoE, and even fewer have ranged AoE. meanwhile, if you want to be have an effective army with medieval weapons, you need to be densely packed. that's why at the start of the american civil war, for example, you see everyone using tight formations... it isn't just that everyone randomly decided to stand right next to each other. it's a requirement for your army to be effective when you're using the kinds of weapons that were available before the american civil war (of course, by the time of said war, it was no longer as required due to the greatly increased range of their weapons thanks to rifling, and it led to horrible casualty rates... which is why we now don't use those tight formations. our weapons don't require them, and those tight formations are extremely vulnerable to our weapons. this is not the case when swords and spears are the standard weapon).

and no, you can't radio in for artillery. radio doesn't exist, and a wizard is massively outranged by a bow, while artillery is the reverse, with ranges measured in MILES. put a group of soldiers 150 feet away from artillery, well within their range to shoot back, and you'll quickly find that the artillery isn't anywhere near as effective.

additionally... no, a lot of dragons and demons don't have higher than 20 intelligence. in fact, almost none of them do. a balor, which is an ancient demon general, probably one in a million, has int 20. and yes, if you play them like they're not geniuses prepared for all kinds of attacks, you're doing it wrong. that is the only demon that matches an int 20 wizard (there are 3 more that come close, but none that equal). the pit fiend actually is smarter, and again, immortal devil general. one other type of devil comes close, the rest, well... more of them have negative int modifiers than positive. actually, that might be true for demons as well. of all the dragons, only ancient green and copper have 20 int. everything else, including ancient dragons of every other colour, has lower intelligence.

so the only thing out of the list you mentioned, which includes ancient and in some cases immortal beings that have been around for millenia, that actually has higher int than a 20 int wizard, is a pit fiend. nothing else beats it. most of those ancient or immortal creatures don't even come close.

[Tanarii]

Such people *are* running the show, usually. If not directly, at least with a strong influence.Depends entirely on how the DM has structured the campaign.

It's entirely possible that level 18+ characters (or NPC equivalent, so around CR 12ish) are vanishingly rare, heroes of legend, and do not currently exist. That the PCs are the only ones in the current era. In fact, it's possible that Tier 3 (level 11+ NPC equivalent) are also very very rare as NPCs (like Eberron).

Or possibly top-level Tier 4-analogue NPCs inevitable that they will be drawn to the outer planes (as PCs generally are), only rarely to return to the Prime.

Also, if the many "what do I spend my gold on" threads are any indication, hyper-powerful PCs aren't really interested in running the show. Should NPCs be any different? Maybe heroically powerful characters all eventually trend to murderhobo?

[Kane0]

Well if I were to run a 'big conflict' sort of game I'd feature something like:

Low level Warmage: Burning Hands/Magic Missile, Scorcher/Flaming Sphere, Fireball/Erupting Earth
Mid level Warmage: Vitriolic Sphere/Sickening Radiance, Cloudkill/Cone of Cold, Circle of Death/Mass Suggestion
High level Warmage: Delayed Fireball/Prismatic Spray, Horrid Wilting/Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Swarm/Wierd

Should be pretty effective artillery, especially if paired up with other mages to provide communication, clouds/walls, priority target elimination, etc.

The trick is to specialize your forces. You wouldn't have the same kind of trooper acting as your scouts, snipers, cavalry, etc so you shouldn't expect a single kind of caster to cover healing, battlefield control, counter-casting and blasting all at once. It's nice to have A couple multirole units but having a force filled with generalists leaves you at a distinct disadvantage.

[Tespri]

On the subject of Hobgoblins:



Because you know, not professional soldiers.



"Guards include members of a city watch, sentries in a citadel or fortified town, and the bodyguards of merchants and nobles."

"Sentry: A soldier stationed to keep guard or to control access to a place. "

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sentry
"Because you know, not professional soldiers."
Clearly worse than non monster race professional ones.

Yes... Keep on ignoring city watch part.

[Tespri]

Wow, so there are a load of comments here with a load of numbers, and a load of opinions going every-which-way. While yes, I did read all of it, I think we might be missing something here. We all love D&D, and wizards are awesome through actions with intelligence.

For those who require a setup/explanation of the army hell-bent on killing a wizard, I present the following scenario.

In the non-magical land of Mundalania, there is word of some witchcraft going on in the noble land of Anvilania. Specifically that said witchcrafty person is getting their filthy charlatan mitts on some fine noble person (lady or lord, either works) and thus Mundalania prepares to go to war! They wanted THEIR filthy mitts on the heir to the noble throne of Anvilania! Also these rumors of magic are probably the silly superstitious rumors of silly stupid peasants! Just take an army, kill one heretic, perform-unspeakable-acts, go home and wallow in riches!

Now, our wizard whom is 20th level, decided to go on vacation to the Prime World of Somewhereelse, and had to use some magic to help out a minor situation. Next thing they know, SURPRISE! YOU'RE MARRIED! And now you wake up, just had your coffee, just did some light spellbook reviewing, and you take in the view from the balcony at the beautiful countryside and, GASP! AN ARMY IS ALMOST AT THE GATES! For reasons!

How does a wizard fight a historically functional army that does not believe they are fighting a wizard? Traditionally of course!

Abjuration: Raise the defenses and send back the storms of arrows!
Conjuration: Bring forth the fuzzy-animal-apocolypse! May or may not be fiendish.
Divination: The general rolled a 20 on their check to inspire the troops? Turn it into a 1.
Enchantment: And that's how you convinced the entire army to take a nap, while the good general started to remember that they are sheep.
Evocation: A faithful re-enactment of the Death Star's party laser.
Illusion: Convince the general that they are back in college, AND THEY'RE LATE FOR THE TEST!
Transmutation: Stone to Magma.
Bladesinger: Challenge the leader to a duel/dance-off.
War Mage: Shed a tear of happiness as your day has finally come.

My point is, we can argue the minutiae of the situation till RagnarokN'Roll 2020 comes around, but I personally for this thread more interested in STYLE! Do we bring in our airship to bombard hapless hoplites with loogies? Do we animate boulders to roll over the competition? Can we convince the DM to let us perform a Badass Boast without interruption?

You are a 20th level wizard, and some army came at your door. Have fun!
Well army is just out right ****ed in that case. If scenario is basically transferring DnD wizard into real life world situation in the past. Just create simulacrum or clone of yourself. Let them kill that or let them kill you and spawn again as your clone. They will walk away and no one really needs to die.

[Unoriginal]

Well if I were to run a 'big conflict' sort of game I'd feature something like:

Low level Warmage: Burning Hands/Magic Missile, Scorcher/Flaming Sphere, Fireball/Erupting Earth
Mid level Warmage: Vitriolic Sphere/Sickening Radiance, Cloudkill/Cone of Cold, Circle of Death/Mass Suggestion
High level Warmage: Delayed Fireball/Prismatic Spray, Horrid Wilting/Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Swarm/Wierd

Should be pretty effective artillery, especially if paired up with other mages to provide communication, clouds/walls, priority target elimination, etc.

The trick is to specialize your forces. You wouldn't have the same kind of trooper acting as your scouts, snipers, cavalry, etc so you shouldn't expect a single kind of caster to cover healing, battlefield control, counter-casting and blasting all at once. It's nice to have A couple multirole units but having a force filled with generalists leaves you at a distinct disadvantage.


The Hobgoblins casters who graduate from the Academy of Devastation apparently favor:

Cantrips: acid splash,.fire bolt, ray of frost, shocking grasp
1st level:fog cloud, magic missile, thunderwave
2nd level: gust of wind, Melfs acid arrow, scorching ray
3rd level :.fireball,fly, lightning bolt
4th level: ice storm

for a CR 4 caster.

Then again, they're noted to lack much knowledge about non-destructive spells and the imagination to use them.

[Tespri]

yes, they have tribes. no, they are not just a bunch of tribal warriors. they are organized and disciplined. they are professional soldiers. and no, veteran doesn't mean you've been promoted. veteran means you've got actual experience doing your job. generally speaking, veterans typically only form the majority of armies that have been actively fighting, and winning the great majority of the time (losing the fights tends to result in large portions of your army leaving, dying, or being wounded and unable to fight). some marines are veterans. probably a greater portion of their sergeants are veterans, because experience is a handy thing for a sergeant to have. but no, not all marines are veterans, and it has absolutely zilch to do with your rank. being a professional soldier does not make you a veteran, it just makes that your full-time job. just like a veteran in the field of marketing is someone who has a lot of experience with marketing, while someone just starting off, in spite of being a professional in the field, is not a veteran no matter how much it is their full time job.

wizards *are* rare, by default. furthermore, the danger of getting hit by a fireball is much smaller than the danger of the wizard being shot to bits by archers, which have a range FOUR TIMES as long as the range of fireball. some moron walking around casting fireball is not a threat to a typical army in 5e, they're just a pincushion waiting to happen. we've already discussed the strategy of getting close enough to cast fireball, and it is a spectacularly stupid idea. additionally, the great majority of monsters also do not have AoE, and even fewer have ranged AoE. meanwhile, if you want to be have an effective army with medieval weapons, you need to be densely packed. that's why at the start of the american civil war, for example, you see everyone using tight formations... it isn't just that everyone randomly decided to stand right next to each other. it's a requirement for your army to be effective when you're using the kinds of weapons that were available before the american civil war (of course, by the time of said war, it was no longer as required due to the greatly increased range of their weapons thanks to rifling, and it led to horrible casualty rates... which is why we now don't use those tight formations. our weapons don't require them, and those tight formations are extremely vulnerable to our weapons. this is not the case when swords and spears are the standard weapon).

and no, you can't radio in for artillery. radio doesn't exist, and a wizard is massively outranged by a bow, while artillery is the reverse, with ranges measured in MILES. put a group of soldiers 150 feet away from artillery, well within their range to shoot back, and you'll quickly find that the artillery isn't anywhere near as effective.

additionally... no, a lot of dragons and demons don't have higher than 20 intelligence. in fact, almost none of them do. a balor, which is an ancient demon general, probably one in a million, has int 20. and yes, if you play them like they're not geniuses prepared for all kinds of attacks, you're doing it wrong. that is the only demon that matches an int 20 wizard (there are 3 more that come close, but none that equal). the pit fiend actually is smarter, and again, immortal devil general. one other type of devil comes close, the rest, well... more of them have negative int modifiers than positive. actually, that might be true for demons as well. of all the dragons, only ancient green and copper have 20 int. everything else, including ancient dragons of every other colour, has lower intelligence.

so the only thing out of the list you mentioned, which includes ancient and in some cases immortal beings that have been around for millenia, that actually has higher int than a 20 int wizard, is a pit fiend. nothing else beats it. most of those ancient or immortal creatures don't even come close.
"and no, veteran doesn't mean you've been promoted."
Veterans generally get promoted. Clearly you haven't been in army.

"veteran means you've got actual experience doing your job."
And army of professional soldiers are not made out of people who are actually experienced in fighting? Common.. This is huge stretch. You guys are trying too hard in order to enforce this view that wizards are gods.

"wizards *are* rare, by default. "
Not as rare as you make them to be.

"the danger of getting hit by a fireball is much smaller than the danger of the wizard being shot to bits by archers,"
And way to combat both of those is not being stack into tight formation.

" some moron walking around casting fireball is not a threat to a typical army in 5e, they're just a pincushion waiting to happen. "
When facing level 20 wizard... Fireball is least of your problems.

"and no, you can't radio in for artillery. radio doesn't exist"
Spells allow you to communicate from distances. So yeas artillery exists. And what is this artillery? Wizards, divine caster and actual artilleries.

" and a wizard is massively outranged by a bow,"
Spellsnipe, also wizards have ways to deal with projectiles. Ever heard of wall of wind?

"a lot of dragons and demons don't have higher than 20 intelligence. in fact, almost none of them do. "
Doesn't matter since some of them have. Yet they aren't batmans who can predict and plan everything that would ever happen.

Sorry to break this to you... But wizards aren't really the immortal badasses you make them to be. It simply doesn't fit to the world nor even to the game. Not even in real life geniuses are capable of predicting everything.

[Tespri]

Also to point out. The description of veteran only states that they fight professionally. While it points out that some of them are ex-soldiers etc...

[Unoriginal]

Clearly worse than non monster race professional ones.

You can keep affirming that, it won't make it true.


Yes... Keep on ignoring city watch part.

I'm not ignoring it. If the book say that their stats are for soldiers, and that they work as soldiers for a living, they're professional soldiers. That their stats can also be used for city watch members is irrelevant.

Same way that a Veteran's stats can also be used for someone who never trained a day of their life but made a pact with Zariel to get power.


Well army is just out right ****ed in that case. If scenario is basically transferring DnD wizard into real life world situation in the past. Just create simulacrum or clone of yourself. Let them kill that or let them kill you and spawn again as your clone. They will walk away and no one really needs to die.

This is 100% true. It's like having Dr Doom fight an army that don't think he's a techno-genius wizard.



Sorry to break this to you... But wizards aren't really the immortal badasses you make them to be. It simply doesn't fit to the world nor even to the game. Not even in real life geniuses are capable of predicting everything.

The guy you're arguing with is saying that a Wizard will get rekt if they try to Fireball archers

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

Think about Roman legions vs. Germans. Romans had better logistics, equipment and tactics, which influence success in war, but "barbarians" were often better individual warriors. Their equipment was inferior and they lacked discipline. IIRC, one Roman (maybe Casear?) wrote something like "If our legion can hold the line against the barbarians for five minutes, they'll break and run. But it means the legion must hold out for five minutes" (going just from memory, so horribly misquoted).

Compared to a hobgoblin, orc is the better warrior with sub-par equipment and lack of discipline. They both have the same CR.

Back to Tespri's post:


"Hobgoblins train to fight with a variety of weapons, and have great skill at crafting arms, armor, siege engines, and other. military devices. Organized and disciplined, they take exceptional care of their weapons, armor, and personal possessions. They favor the bold colors associated with their tribes, and trim their often-elaborate uniforms with blood-red piping and leather dyed black. "
-Monster manual p.185

Hobgoblins train to fight with a variety of weapons
-they are proficient with longswords and longbows, i.e. martial weapons quite different from each other. That doesn't mean they are superior combatants individually

Hobgoblins have great skill at crafting arms, armor, siege engines, and other military devices
-crafting skill isn't the same as skill in actual use of all that stuff. But it means they have superior equipment, if not individual combat skill.

Organized and disciplined, they take exceptional care of their weapons, armor, and personal possessions.
-good organization and discipline, means they work together better. Once again, reference to good equipment, but not to actual superior combat skill.

Now, look at average hobgoblin. His stats are inferior to even normal guard. What he's got is superior equipment, and teamwork (represented by Martial Advantage).



But I disagree that professional armies are made mostly from veterans. Even professional armies have lot of people who never been in a real battle, much less enough of them to earn proper veteran status. (I, personally, and perhaps a bit ironically, considering the discussion, use hobgoblins stats for trained, rank-and-file soldiers with no combat experience, modified with their race in mind). I reserve Guards for the guys who may have trained with a spear for a bit, but their actual combat experience is taking potshots at goblins/bandits/whatever skulking around town wall, catching thieves and perhaps breaking up a tavern brawl.

[Tanarii]

But I disagree that professional armies are made mostly from veterans. Even professional armies have lot of people who never been in a real battle, much less enough of them to earn proper veteran status.
I'm just generally confused by all this talk about professional armies. Most campaigns/settings (across all editions) I've seen don't really have those. Most settings, it's typically a bunch of peasants, town militias, nobleman's personal levies, even conscripts. Maybe some "professional" mercs.

(In FR Cormyr is one of the few exceptions in FR insofar as I know.)

[Jack Bitters]

I feel the intense urge to jump in and say my piece in a meaningless debate on how strong a wizard truly is...

Hypothesis: A wizard can can brush up against godliness, although being a god oneself may not be possible. What is a 20th-level wizard capable of?

21+ Reasons why a Wizard is not a Fighter.

1) Creating his or her own people and civilization via permanent True Polymorph. Now, this does not automatically behold the created beings to the wizard. However, if you spawn them weak enough, say with 11 hitpoints or so, (*cough* hobgoblins were all created by wizards #conspiracy *cough*) and then cast a permanent Geas on them to treat the wizard as a revered friend, then you'll have no problems with peasant uprisings. Also, be sure to Geas babies at birth, altering their destiny to "grow up and become heroes." They'll thank you later. :smalleek:

2) Create a floating castle in the sky with Mirage Arcane. As it says you can create structures, I think floating castles count for that purpose. Even if just a tip touches the ground.

3) Create actual castles (non-floating) with Mighty Fortress, Wall of Stone, and Shape Stone. All of these spells have permanent capabilities.

4) Control the weather–something that modern technology struggles to do. Wizards can make it rain in the world's driest desert. :smallcool:

5) Raise the dead–literally control over life and death, as well as creating clones of themselves, granting effective immortality, which is generally a trait of higher beings.

6) Control the dead–eh. Anyone can do that. You don't even need a college degree. :smallannoyed:

7) Kill people in their dreams (although you max out at 18 psychic damage, unless the War Wizard can power surge this).

8) Enlist the service of devils and angels via Planar Binding.

9) Literally be invincible to physical harm via Invulnerability. A wizard is already immune to mental distress because the only thing a wizard truly cares about is his or her spellbook and familiar. :smallwink:

10) Be undetectable to divination spells like True Seeing or Scry via Mind Blank/Nondetection.

11) Traverse any distance or planar boundaries via Plane Shift and Teleport.

12) Revolutionize the shipping industry with permanent teleportation circles. :smallamused:

13) Can cause their own on-demand natural disasters via Tsunami, Earthquake, Whirlwind, and Meteor Swarm.

14) Speak and understand any language ever.

15) Keep someone's soul from passing on to the next life for up to 8 hours–further mastery of death.

16) Erase memories from any point in someone's life. :smallfrown:

17) Stop time (as useless as this may be, you can still do it).

18) Grant animals and trees the ability to speak and develop civilization e.g. Narnia (note: requires Awaken, which means using Wish to cast it).

19) Can walk on water (again, no college degree required, but this is like, iconic. Also it's not a wizard spell so burn a 9th level slot or take Ritual Caster).

20) Can defy gravity in a localized area. Or just walk up walls and ceilings with Spider Climb.

21) Can kill someone with a word. Sorcerers can do it better... Just a thought.

22) Honorable mentions: Polymorph, Fabricate, Contingency, Prestidigitation, Evard's Black Tentacles:smalltongue:, Wish, Antimagic Field, Globe of Invulnerability (lesser wizards need not apply).

Hopefully that clears up why a wizard should always be prepared to fight an army! Because honestly, if you're not abusing your magic to bring world peace and rewriting your spell notes in triplicate at level 20, you're doing something wrong. Like, what's your excuse? You couldn't afford the 18,250 gold startup cost for your teleportation circle shipping company? WEAK :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

Think about Roman legions vs. Germans. Romans had better logistics, equipment and tactics, which influence success in war, but "barbarians" were often better individual warriors. Their equipment was inferior and they lacked discipline. IIRC, one Roman (maybe Casear?) wrote something like "If our legion can hold the line against the barbarians for five minutes, they'll break and run. But it means the legion must hold out for five minutes" (going just from memory, so horribly misquoted).

Compared to a hobgoblin, orc is the better warrior with sub-par equipment and lack of discipline. They both have the same CR.

What does it have to do with the Hobgoblins being professional soldiers?



Now, look at average hobgoblin. His stats are inferior to even normal guard. What he's got is superior equipment, and teamwork (represented by Martial Advantage).


I'm sorry, but what?

HPs:

Guard: 11

Hobgoblin: 11

Bonus to hit with weapon (including their stat bonus):

Guard: + 3

Hobgoblin: +3

Stats:

Guard: STR 13 (+1) DEX 12 (+1) CON 12 (+1) the rest at 10

Hobgoblin: STR 13 (+1) DEX 12 (+1) CON 12 (+1) CHA 9 (-1) the rest at 10

Their stats are basically identical, without counting the Martial Advantage of the Hobgoblins, which do make them better soldiers, and the superior guard's charisma, which wouldn't impact much in a fight. Guards are also better in Perception, fair enough.



-they are proficient with longswords and longbows, i.e. martial weapons quite different from each other. That doesn't mean they are superior combatants individually

They deal more damages, have a better range and more versatility. It kind of does make them superior as combatant, if only slightly so.



-crafting skill isn't the same as skill in actual use of all that stuff. But it means they have superior equipment, if not individual combat skill.

Which makes them better at war.



-good organization and discipline, means they work together better. Once again, reference to good equipment, but not to actual superior combat skill.

Better strategy, better logistic.

Point is, trying to say that Hobgoblins soldiers aren't representative of what would constitute most of an humanoid army is just nonsensical.


(I, personally, and perhaps a bit ironically, considering the discussion, use hobgoblins stats for trained, rank-and-file soldiers with no combat experience, modified with their race in mind). I reserve Guards for the guys who may have trained with a spear for a bit, but their actual combat experience is taking potshots at goblins/bandits/whatever skulking around town wall, catching thieves and perhaps breaking up a tavern brawl.

So... your rank-and-file soldiers are pretty similar to guards?


I'm just generally confused by all this talk about professional armies. Most campaigns/settings (across all editions) I've seen don't really have those. Most settings, it's typically a bunch of peasants, town militias, nobleman's personal levies, even conscripts. Maybe some "professional" mercs.

(In FR Cormyr is one of the few exceptions in FR insofar as I know.)


5e mentions people who have for profession to be soldiers, or at least hired to fight, in several places.

[Tanarii]

12) Revolutionize the shipping industry with permanent teleportation circles. :smallamused:This takes a level 9+ Wizard, and a year to set up, and a 5th level slot each time it's used to provide 6 seconds of transportation.

That's not going to revolutionize anything. Except possibly small amounts of extremely high-end luxuries.


5e mentions people who have for profession to be soldiers, or at least hired to fight, in several places.Including the soldier background, now that I think about it.
#Facepalm

[smcmike]

Well army is just out right ****ed in that case. If scenario is basically transferring DnD wizard into real life world situation in the past. Just create simulacrum or clone of yourself. Let them kill that or let them kill you and spawn again as your clone. They will walk away and no one really needs to die.

The scenario, as presented, is the Wizard looks up from his coffee and sees a mundane army that must be defeated. Let’s assume that the wizard’s goal is to defend an otherwise defenseless town from attack.

Simulacrum won’t help, since this hypothetical wizard does not have one prepared. He just has a well-stocked spellbook.

[Jack Bitters]

This takes a level 9+ Wizard, and a year to set up, and a 5th level slot each time it's used to provide 6 seconds of transportation.

That's not going to revolutionize anything. Except possibly small amounts of extremely high-end luxuries.


Wow that's unfortunate. Forgive me for thinking that once a teleportation circle was linked, you could just step into it at any time and portal away. This makes more sense. You're better off just teleporting things with Teleport or Gate.

Welp, wizard nerfed, plz buff


The scenario, as presented, is the Wizard looks up from his coffee and sees a mundane army that must be defeated. Let’s assume that the wizard’s goal is to defend an otherwise defenseless town from attack.

Simulacrum won’t help, since this hypothetical wizard does not have one prepared. He just has a well-stocked spellbook.

Step 1: Get the town's attention by shooting fireballs into the sky. While they walk towards you, cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.
Step 2: Use Wish to cast Thaumaturgy to speak louder and get everyone's attention
Step 3: Direct all townsfolk to march into the mansion
Step 4: Cast Nondetection on the portal to the Mansion so people can't detect its invisible presence
Step 5: Hope there's a cleric who can cast Create Food and Water or you'll have a lot of hungry guests
Step 6: Sleep, prepare Gate, and teleport the village people out to a safe spot, like a neighboring village
Step 7: Now you have time; contact the wizard forums to figure out how to beat an army without walking into Fireball range.

[SharkForce]

"and no, veteran doesn't mean you've been promoted."
Veterans generally get promoted. Clearly you haven't been in army.

"veteran means you've got actual experience doing your job."
And army of professional soldiers are not made out of people who are actually experienced in fighting? Common.. This is huge stretch. You guys are trying too hard in order to enforce this view that wizards are gods.

"wizards *are* rare, by default. "
Not as rare as you make them to be.

"the danger of getting hit by a fireball is much smaller than the danger of the wizard being shot to bits by archers,"
And way to combat both of those is not being stack into tight formation.

" some moron walking around casting fireball is not a threat to a typical army in 5e, they're just a pincushion waiting to happen. "
When facing level 20 wizard... Fireball is least of your problems.

"and no, you can't radio in for artillery. radio doesn't exist"
Spells allow you to communicate from distances. So yeas artillery exists. And what is this artillery? Wizards, divine caster and actual artilleries.

" and a wizard is massively outranged by a bow,"
Spellsnipe, also wizards have ways to deal with projectiles. Ever heard of wall of wind?

"a lot of dragons and demons don't have higher than 20 intelligence. in fact, almost none of them do. "
Doesn't matter since some of them have. Yet they aren't batmans who can predict and plan everything that would ever happen.

Sorry to break this to you... But wizards aren't really the immortal badasses you make them to be. It simply doesn't fit to the world nor even to the game. Not even in real life geniuses are capable of predicting everything.

most people who get promoted will be veterans (again, experience is a very good thing to have for leaders). not all veterans will get promoted. certainly, nobody is walking around looking for unpromoted veterans to make sure they get the promotion they're due as a result of being a veteran.

you can be a professional soldier who is fresh out of training. you are a professional soldier. you have no real experience. veterans are the people who have experience. they've been in some sort of military campaign if not multiple campaigns and came out alive and sufficiently intact to still be fighting, and yes, there is a difference between them and green troops, even if the green troops are professional soldiers.

you're right, fireball is the least of your problems. that's why your formation doesn't need to be spread out. if the wizard wants to fireball you, you shoot the wizard, and the problem is solved. if the thing the wizard might do is something that lets you fight back, the wizard is doing something wrong. if you get in range to be fireballed, the wizard screwed up royally already.

you can protect against archers just fine in formation. armies did it for centuries. it wasn't until we started using rifled semiautomatic or fully automatic firearms that tight formations stopped being a thing, and even that took time for people to figure out.

spell snipe works on attack roll spells. it does bupkiss for fireball. you might get a better firebolt from your wizard, but frankly, i'm not convinced that's anything to be terrified of. also, they'll stil be in range for archers, and drawing a line straight back to their location, all to deal damage only marginally higher than a moderately competent archer.

those demons and dragons have lived for centuries or millenia with their 20 int before anyone stops them. the dragons have likely dealt with all manner of people trying to kill them, the demons and devils have most definitely dealt with that (mostly from their subordinates), and after thousands of years they screw up once and get killed by PCs (probably in large part due to the fact that the DM was neither able nor willing to play them as a supergenius with millenia of experience in fending off all manner of attacks) so we should presume that outwitting one of them is going to be laughably easy. right. because clearly the guy who defended every attack against them (probably mostly coming from the handful of other demons and devils that are "only" regular geniuses instead of super geniuses) for a period of time longer than all of human history while in an environment of constant attacks just got lucky for those thousands of years. somehow i have a hard time believing that. that's like saying that if you had a batter in baseball with a .999999999999999999999999 batting average, they are clearly not very good at hitting the ball, otherwise they wouldn't have missed that one time out of 10^24 pitches. man, what a total scrub. why would you even worry if you're the pitcher and this incompetent clown comes up to bat, he's been beaten once so he's obviously not even a challenge. [/sarcasm]

[JackPhoenix]

What does it have to do with the Hobgoblins being professional soldiers?

They deal more damages, have a better range and more versatility. It kind of does make them superior as combatant, if only slightly so.

Which makes them better at war.

Better strategy, better logistic.

Point is, trying to say that Hobgoblins soldiers aren't representative of what would constitute most of an humanoid army is just nonsensical.


That's the point. Hobgoblins are professional soldiers while being nowhere near as good as veterans in a fight.

[RickAllison]

I would point out that even with the limits on Teleporation Circle, it does offer an amazing service if they have an actual network. Remember that you normally have two types of traders: bulk traders that make up the costs and risks of long voyages by carrying huge amounts of cargo and short haulers carrying low-risk hauls that adjust to needs of the destinations. A network of Teleportation Circles is awesome because, when combined with scrying, you essentially have the adaptability of a short-hauler across the world. Most importantly, those circles don't require upkeep for an extended network, and can still haul 0.5 to 5 tons rather easily.

Teleport has two foolproof travel methods, Teleportation circles and an item from that location. The circles reinforce the usefulness of the lesser spell, but the items have the limitation of needing to be recent. Even if you have Teleport, you still need the circles if you don't want to spend time finding new items at every destination.

[smcmike]

Step 1: Get the town's attention by shooting fireballs into the sky. While they walk towards you, cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.
Step 2: Use Wish to cast Thaumaturgy to speak louder and get everyone's attention
Step 3: Direct all townsfolk to march into the mansion
Step 4: Cast Nondetection on the portal to the Mansion so people can't detect its invisible presence
Step 5: Hope there's a cleric who can cast Create Food and Water or you'll have a lot of hungry guests
Step 6: Sleep, prepare Gate, and teleport the village people out to a safe spot, like a neighboring village
Step 7: Now you have time; contact the wizard forums to figure out how to beat an army without walking into Fireball range.

Magnificent Mansion is a wonderful solution to many problems created by an army. Independent wizards without worldly connections really have nothing to worry about when it comes to mundane armies. On the other hand, this doesn’t actually solve the problem, which is to defeat the army.

[Jack Bitters]

I think it's important that the wizard be able to buy time in some way to prepare to defeat the army by getting a simulacrum, casting symbols and glyphs of warding, binding demons, etc. I think it's impossible to defeat an army of significant size, even if they're all CR 1/2, without time and preparation because if there existed a spell or even a combo of two or three spells to do such a thing, it would be the most powerful thing in the game and therefore the most popular combo. We would have heard about it by now.

No, the path to victory will take more effort than that. Can't win with just a few turns casting spells.

[smcmike]

I think it's important that the wizard be able to buy time in some way to prepare to defeat the army by getting a simulacrum, casting symbols and glyphs of warding, binding demons, etc. I think it's impossible to defeat an army of significant size, even if they're all CR 1/2, without time and preparation because if there existed a spell or even a combo of two or three spells to do such a thing, it would be the most powerful thing in the game and therefore the most popular combo. We would have heard about it by now.

No, the path to victory will take more effort than that. Can't win with just a few turns casting spells.

In short, you don’t think a wizard is up to the challenge.

I dunno. Honestly, Meteor Storm may be sufficient, against a mundane army that doesn’t know anything about high-level wizards. To defeat an army you don’t generally need to kill every soldier. If the wizard can identify the commanders and take them out from a mile away, that may be enough. Depends on the army, of course - that’s the problem with this challenge. There is no such thing as a generic encounter between a generic wizard and a generic army.

[Nifft]

That's the point. Hobgoblins are professional soldiers while being nowhere near as good as veterans in a fight.

Maybe they're underpaid foreign subcontractors, like some kind of demi-human Accenture Mercenary Advisor / Deloitte Death Division / Tata Terror Services or similar, and so they're technically "professionals" (in that they do a thing for money) but their training and proficiency are mostly just a tall tale.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe they're underpaid foreign subcontractors, like some kind of demi-human Accenture Mercenary Advisor / Deloitte Death Division / Tata Terror Services or similar, and so they're technically "professionals" (in that they do a thing for money) but their training and proficiency are mostly just a tall tale.

No.

The issue is not that Hobgoblins are bad. They aren't.

I really don't see why people are so bothered by the mooks of the fight-focused armies being CR 1/2.

[Tespri]

You can keep affirming that, it won't make it true.



I'm not ignoring it. If the book say that their stats are for soldiers, and that they work as soldiers for a living, they're professional soldiers. That their stats can also be used for city watch members is irrelevant.

Same way that a Veteran's stats can also be used for someone who never trained a day of their life but made a pact with Zariel to get power.



This is 100% true. It's like having Dr Doom fight an army that don't think he's a techno-genius wizard.



The guy you're arguing with is saying that a Wizard will get rekt if they try to Fireball archers

"You can keep affirming that, it won't make it true. "
According to stat block and which make the most powerful nations in the DnD world it sure makes it true.

"I'm not ignoring it. If the book say that their stats are for soldiers,"
IT doesn't. IT states that stats are for city watch. It clearly points out that these are simply common folk given a weapon. You do realize that everyone can be soldier without being professional one? This shouldn't be hard concept to grasp.

"!This is 100% true. It's like having Dr Doom fight an army that don't think he's a techno-genius wizard."
At least we agree on something.

"The guy you're arguing with is saying that a Wizard will get rekt if they try to Fireball archers "
He is also saying that wizard's are geniuses who predicts literally everything that can happen, and therefore are prepared to literally everything. He made wizard appear to be a batman from comics. Well batman with a magical powers.

[Tespri]

Think about Roman legions vs. Germans. Romans had better logistics, equipment and tactics, which influence success in war, but "barbarians" were often better individual warriors. Their equipment was inferior and they lacked discipline. IIRC, one Roman (maybe Casear?) wrote something like "If our legion can hold the line against the barbarians for five minutes, they'll break and run. But it means the legion must hold out for five minutes" (going just from memory, so horribly misquoted).

Compared to a hobgoblin, orc is the better warrior with sub-par equipment and lack of discipline. They both have the same CR.

Back to Tespri's post:



Hobgoblins train to fight with a variety of weapons
-they are proficient with longswords and longbows, i.e. martial weapons quite different from each other. That doesn't mean they are superior combatants individually

Hobgoblins have great skill at crafting arms, armor, siege engines, and other military devices
-crafting skill isn't the same as skill in actual use of all that stuff. But it means they have superior equipment, if not individual combat skill.

Organized and disciplined, they take exceptional care of their weapons, armor, and personal possessions.
-good organization and discipline, means they work together better. Once again, reference to good equipment, but not to actual superior combat skill.

Now, look at average hobgoblin. His stats are inferior to even normal guard. What he's got is superior equipment, and teamwork (represented by Martial Advantage).



But I disagree that professional armies are made mostly from veterans. Even professional armies have lot of people who never been in a real battle, much less enough of them to earn proper veteran status. (I, personally, and perhaps a bit ironically, considering the discussion, use hobgoblins stats for trained, rank-and-file soldiers with no combat experience, modified with their race in mind). I reserve Guards for the guys who may have trained with a spear for a bit, but their actual combat experience is taking potshots at goblins/bandits/whatever skulking around town wall, catching thieves and perhaps breaking up a tavern brawl.

According to monster manual. Veteran stats are used on a fighter who fights professional. It's irrelevant is he actually war veteran or not. It's suppose to reflect the fact that they are well trained/experienced in fighting.

[Tespri]

I feel the intense urge to jump in and say my piece in a meaningless debate on how strong a wizard truly is...

Hypothesis: A wizard can can brush up against godliness, although being a god oneself may not be possible. What is a 20th-level wizard capable of?

21+ Reasons why a Wizard is not a Fighter.

1) Creating his or her own people and civilization via permanent True Polymorph. Now, this does not automatically behold the created beings to the wizard. However, if you spawn them weak enough, say with 11 hitpoints or so, (*cough* hobgoblins were all created by wizards #conspiracy *cough*) and then cast a permanent Geas on them to treat the wizard as a revered friend, then you'll have no problems with peasant uprisings. Also, be sure to Geas babies at birth, altering their destiny to "grow up and become heroes." They'll thank you later. :smalleek:

2) Create a floating castle in the sky with Mirage Arcane. As it says you can create structures, I think floating castles count for that purpose. Even if just a tip touches the ground.

3) Create actual castles (non-floating) with Mighty Fortress, Wall of Stone, and Shape Stone. All of these spells have permanent capabilities.

4) Control the weather–something that modern technology struggles to do. Wizards can make it rain in the world's driest desert. :smallcool:

5) Raise the dead–literally control over life and death, as well as creating clones of themselves, granting effective immortality, which is generally a trait of higher beings.

6) Control the dead–eh. Anyone can do that. You don't even need a college degree. :smallannoyed:

7) Kill people in their dreams (although you max out at 18 psychic damage, unless the War Wizard can power surge this).

8) Enlist the service of devils and angels via Planar Binding.

9) Literally be invincible to physical harm via Invulnerability. A wizard is already immune to mental distress because the only thing a wizard truly cares about is his or her spellbook and familiar. :smallwink:

10) Be undetectable to divination spells like True Seeing or Scry via Mind Blank/Nondetection.

11) Traverse any distance or planar boundaries via Plane Shift and Teleport.

12) Revolutionize the shipping industry with permanent teleportation circles. :smallamused:

13) Can cause their own on-demand natural disasters via Tsunami, Earthquake, Whirlwind, and Meteor Swarm.

14) Speak and understand any language ever.

15) Keep someone's soul from passing on to the next life for up to 8 hours–further mastery of death.

16) Erase memories from any point in someone's life. :smallfrown:

17) Stop time (as useless as this may be, you can still do it).

18) Grant animals and trees the ability to speak and develop civilization e.g. Narnia (note: requires Awaken, which means using Wish to cast it).

19) Can walk on water (again, no college degree required, but this is like, iconic. Also it's not a wizard spell so burn a 9th level slot or take Ritual Caster).

20) Can defy gravity in a localized area. Or just walk up walls and ceilings with Spider Climb.

21) Can kill someone with a word. Sorcerers can do it better... Just a thought.

22) Honorable mentions: Polymorph, Fabricate, Contingency, Prestidigitation, Evard's Black Tentacles:smalltongue:, Wish, Antimagic Field, Globe of Invulnerability (lesser wizards need not apply).

Hopefully that clears up why a wizard should always be prepared to fight an army! Because honestly, if you're not abusing your magic to bring world peace and rewriting your spell notes in triplicate at level 20, you're doing something wrong. Like, what's your excuse? You couldn't afford the 18,250 gold startup cost for your teleportation circle shipping company? WEAK :smallbiggrin:
This is why I'm generally disappointing how fantasy worlds like this are made to look like. You would see illusionists creating "movies", you would see them having advertisement companies where they use illusions as advertisements. Logistic problems would disappear almost in no-time thanks to teleportation circles. In a way... The life should be more luxuries than it's in our world. Yet these worlds are still depicted like some dirty medieval towns. Heck they could even create cleaning companies to keep places clean with invisible servants. There have been lot of times I have considered writing a campaign which shows how magic would truly affect the society. Or simply write a book about it. Definitely would have some sort of cyberpunk vibes. Magicpunk?

[Tespri]

The scenario, as presented, is the Wizard looks up from his coffee and sees a mundane army that must be defeated. Let’s assume that the wizard’s goal is to defend an otherwise defenseless town from attack.

Simulacrum won’t help, since this hypothetical wizard does not have one prepared. He just has a well-stocked spellbook.
Still non-violent way is the best approach. Showing people off that you can do magic, will only bring trouble in future. Constantly be wary of assassins etc..
so let's look non-violent approach. Since now army appears to want to kill defenseless town.
You can just gather all towns people and hide them in mordenkainen's magnificent mansion. While creating illusionary wall to hide the entrance from enemy soldiers.
After army is gone, just go for their leaders and modify their memories accordingly.

But I know that people probably just want to see wizard killing people. So why not just mass polymorph all town's folks into T-rex and let them nom nom whole army.



most people who get promoted will be veterans (again, experience is a very good thing to have for leaders). not all veterans will get promoted. certainly, nobody is walking around looking for unpromoted veterans to make sure they get the promotion they're due as a result of being a veteran.

you can be a professional soldier who is fresh out of training. you are a professional soldier. you have no real experience. veterans are the people who have experience. they've been in some sort of military campaign if not multiple campaigns and came out alive and sufficiently intact to still be fighting, and yes, there is a difference between them and green troops, even if the green troops are professional soldiers.

you're right, fireball is the least of your problems. that's why your formation doesn't need to be spread out. if the wizard wants to fireball you, you shoot the wizard, and the problem is solved. if the thing the wizard might do is something that lets you fight back, the wizard is doing something wrong. if you get in range to be fireballed, the wizard screwed up royally already.

you can protect against archers just fine in formation. armies did it for centuries. it wasn't until we started using rifled semiautomatic or fully automatic firearms that tight formations stopped being a thing, and even that took time for people to figure out.

spell snipe works on attack roll spells. it does bupkiss for fireball. you might get a better firebolt from your wizard, but frankly, i'm not convinced that's anything to be terrified of. also, they'll stil be in range for archers, and drawing a line straight back to their location, all to deal damage only marginally higher than a moderately competent archer.

those demons and dragons have lived for centuries or millenia with their 20 int before anyone stops them. the dragons have likely dealt with all manner of people trying to kill them, the demons and devils have most definitely dealt with that (mostly from their subordinates), and after thousands of years they screw up once and get killed by PCs (probably in large part due to the fact that the DM was neither able nor willing to play them as a supergenius with millenia of experience in fending off all manner of attacks) so we should presume that outwitting one of them is going to be laughably easy. right. because clearly the guy who defended every attack against them (probably mostly coming from the handful of other demons and devils that are "only" regular geniuses instead of super geniuses) for a period of time longer than all of human history while in an environment of constant attacks just got lucky for those thousands of years. somehow i have a hard time believing that. that's like saying that if you had a batter in baseball with a .999999999999999999999999 batting average, they are clearly not very good at hitting the ball, otherwise they wouldn't have missed that one time out of 10^24 pitches. man, what a total scrub. why would you even worry if you're the pitcher and this incompetent clown comes up to bat, he's been beaten once so he's obviously not even a challenge. [/sarcasm]

" not all veterans will get promoted."
They actually do. At least in my country, you will become corporal. It's just one rank above private.

"you can be a professional soldier who is fresh out of training. you are a professional soldier. you have no real experience. "
The real experience only affects on your morale and decision making capabilities. However your weapon training can be on levels of a master. The reason why real life veterans are so to say good in combat, is because they have become numb to the things that affect morale. More likely to shoot to kill and less likely to paralyze from fear or run because of panic.
Well trained soldier can defeat experienced soldier who lacks training. In fact, this is why American soldiers have been doing so well in warfare, even when they lacked experience. Their training allowed them to act as efficient and well capable soldier.

"you're right, fireball is the least of your problems. that's why your formation doesn't need to be spread out."
Expect it does need to be spread out due the fact that all the spells they can do... As mentioned before. There is this thing called as meteor swarm. Which range is 1 mile.
And again... In world full of magic. There is literally no reason to use classical formations unless you can protect those formations through magic.

" if the wizard wants to fireball you, you shoot the wizard, and the problem is solved."
Assuming that your arrows get past his walls, shield spells etc...

"you can protect against archers just fine in formation. armies did it for centuries. "
Armies that didn't face dragons, wizards, clerics, etc..

" it wasn't until we started using rifled semiautomatic or fully automatic firearms that tight formations stopped being a thing, and even that took time for people to figure out."
Actually it was earlier. Line formation was much better again canons. When gunpowder became common in warfare, the formations were different from older times. You no longer wanted to make all tightly compact formations. Also do you understand why firearms changed tight formations away? Precisely because people in tight formations were sitting ducks. Which is exactly the case for spells as well. You will lose whole formation to one spell. More than one. This would be even worse if you actually had to face druid. Since they can literally wipe tightly formatted armies who have no magical protection. Enjoy your army when Tsunami will wipe it. Range? Sight. size? 300 feet long, 300 feet high.
Heck even battle-clerics moving with their squad will destroy any tight formation thanks to their guardian spirit spell.

May I also remind you that longbow will have disadvantage after 150feet?

"e dragons have likely dealt with all manner of people trying to kill them, the demons and devils have most definitely dealt with that"
Their power isn't determined by their intelligence.

"probably in large part due to the fact that the DM was neither able nor willing to play them as a supergenius with millenia of experience in fending off all manner of attacks"
I'm starting to think that you haven't actually ever met a genius in your life. They are not like in movies.
Edit: Intelligent people know that you can't predict everything nor can you plan for everything. Hence they know not to trust on plans. And the choices they make are based on how many options they have after they commit. Even in real life military geniuses have stated this pretty clearly. It's not about doing super complex plan, in fact plans like that are actually more prone to fail. It's about being versatile and having room to change your plan when something unexpected happens.

[Unoriginal]

IT doesn't. IT states that stats are for city watch. It clearly points out that these are simply common folk given a weapon.

So sentries aren't soldiers, and someone hired to fight for you isn't a professional. Ok.

It's stated nobles hire Guards as bodyguards, and the passage of the DMG you quoted say each noble has a regiment of them to help defend the city.

You think that nobles, who have money, power and the desire to stay alive, would hire people who are worse at fighting than the ones in the army?

[SharkForce]

Still non-violent way is the best approach. Showing people off that you can do magic, will only bring trouble in future. Constantly be wary of assassins etc..
so let's look non-violent approach. Since now army appears to want to kill defenseless town.
You can just gather all towns people and hide them in mordenkainen's magnificent mansion. While creating illusionary wall to hide the entrance from enemy soldiers.
After army is gone, just go for their leaders and modify their memories accordingly.

But I know that people probably just want to see wizard killing people. So why not just mass polymorph all town's folks into T-rex and let them nom nom whole army.




" not all veterans will get promoted."
They actually do. At least in my country, you will become corporal. It's just one rank above private.

"you can be a professional soldier who is fresh out of training. you are a professional soldier. you have no real experience. "
The real experience only affects on your morale and decision making capabilities. However your weapon training can be on levels of a master. The reason why real life veterans are so to say good in combat, is because they have become numb to the things that affect morale. More likely to shoot to kill and less likely to paralyze from fear or run because of panic.
Well trained soldier can defeat experienced soldier who lacks training. In fact, this is why American soldiers have been doing so well in warfare, even when they lacked experience. Their training allowed them to act as efficient and well capable soldier.

"you're right, fireball is the least of your problems. that's why your formation doesn't need to be spread out."
Expect it does need to be spread out due the fact that all the spells they can do... As mentioned before. There is this thing called as meteor swarm. Which range is 1 mile.
And again... In world full of magic. There is literally no reason to use classical formations unless you can protect those formations through magic.

" if the wizard wants to fireball you, you shoot the wizard, and the problem is solved."
Assuming that your arrows get past his walls, shield spells etc...

"you can protect against archers just fine in formation. armies did it for centuries. "
Armies that didn't face dragons, wizards, clerics, etc..

" it wasn't until we started using rifled semiautomatic or fully automatic firearms that tight formations stopped being a thing, and even that took time for people to figure out."
Actually it was earlier. Line formation was much better again canons. When gunpowder became common in warfare, the formations were different from older times. You no longer wanted to make all tightly compact formations. Also do you understand why firearms changed tight formations away? Precisely because people in tight formations were sitting ducks. Which is exactly the case for spells as well. You will lose whole formation to one spell. More than one. This would be even worse if you actually had to face druid. Since they can literally wipe tightly formatted armies who have no magical protection. Enjoy your army when Tsunami will wipe it. Range? Sight. size? 300 feet long, 300 feet high.
Heck even battle-clerics moving with their squad will destroy any tight formation thanks to their guardian spirit spell.

May I also remind you that longbow will have disadvantage after 150feet?

"e dragons have likely dealt with all manner of people trying to kill them, the demons and devils have most definitely dealt with that"
Their power isn't determined by their intelligence.

"probably in large part due to the fact that the DM was neither able nor willing to play them as a supergenius with millenia of experience in fending off all manner of attacks"
I'm starting to think that you haven't actually ever met a genius in your life. They are not like in movies.
Edit: Intelligent people know that you can't predict everything nor can you plan for everything. Hence they know not to trust on plans. And the choices they make are based on how many options they have after they commit. Even in real life military geniuses have stated this pretty clearly. It's not about doing super complex plan, in fact plans like that are actually more prone to fail. It's about being versatile and having room to change your plan when something unexpected happens.

apparently in your country, corporal is just a fancy name for a private.

those things factor into how well you fight. morale can give you temporary hit points, for example, with HP being one of the most visible differences in the stat line. not hesitating can make you act and react faster, allowing you to get more attacks in, which, again, is one of the more visible differences in the stat line of the veteran in the monster manual. and sure, a very well trained soldier with no experience can be better than a very poorly trained soldier with experience. that doesn't somehow mean that hobgoblins with the exact same experience and level of training should somehow be worse. every single hobgoblin trains religiously. they are all highly trained, proficient, disciplined warriors as their day job. there is nothing about humans that somehow transforms them into gods of war when they have the same kind of training.

meteor swarm is a level 9 spell, and frankly if you're facing someone that can cast meteor swarm, your whole army should just never even start moving. it is *certainly* not at all common, and should largely be a non-factor in war situations.

your arrow doesn't need to get past the wizard's defenses. so long as some of the hundreds of arrows that you and your buddies shoot (yes, even with disadvantage, some significant portion will hit) get through, the wizard is screwed. he can get pretty good defense. that will make the wizard get fewer times. it will not make the wizard not get hit.

armies still don't face dragons, broadly speaking. that's what heroes are for. as noted above, clerics and wizards are not going to be that hard to deal with until they're super high level, at which point it is once again a scenario where you don't send an army, but it still isn't fireball you're afraid of, it's that you are going to get completely and utterly wrecked by something else which won't even give you the opportunity to retaliate, because 20% chance to die is a sucker's bet when you have options that make you more likely to die from choking on your morning cereal than from the army accomplishing anything.

a moment ago you were insisting that there were tons of creatures smarter than a 20 int wizard. now you're just insisting that even though there aren't, that's just because those creatures which you were previously insisting were the super geniuses of the world don't actually need intelligence to survive. well then why did you even bring it up? i mean, if you *genuinely* think it isn't important, why did you whip it out when i suggested that 20 int means you *are* a super genius?

thse "typical" geniuses that you've met probably haven't devoted their life to "how not to get killed by people that really want to kill you". i expect they have plenty of plans to cover the things they want to do, and while it is true that they can be caught off guard... it is utter nonsense to suggest that it's going to be a trivial thing to catch them off guard, and that none of the plans they may have come up with will be remotely suitable. just because they have two dozen invisible stalkers via wish ==> planar binding at any given point in time primarily to pick off people that annoy them doesn't mean they're can't use those same invisible stalkers to capture or kill key figures in that army days in advance, or to kill off every supply wagon that tries to get food to the army, or to drop poison into the spring the army is going to camp next to tomorrow. just because they keep that poison around to prevent rats from shredding their spell books into nest materials doesn't mean they can't use it to poison the army.

these guys got to level 20 while being squishier than their colleagues by being smart enough to account for all the variables so far. that doesn't mean it's going to be impossible for you to introduce a variable they haven't considered, but it does mean that "the wizard has probably considered most common scenarios and prepared a variety of responses, many of which will be flexible, to deal with those scenarios" and thus has a counter for any given idea is pretty reasonable. they've been spending years dealing with people coming up with plans to kill them. you probably aren't the first person to try whatever it is you want to try, and you probably won't be the last.

just like those pit fiends and balors have managed to stay at the top of the heap in their respective hierarchies in spite of constant attempts to kill them (or discredit them and get them demoted into a lesser form of demon/devil, etc, etc, etc) by that same thing.

[Beelzebubba]

Have fun when they make the DC 19 wisdom save, with their save of +11

Wizard's problem, not mine :smallcool:

[Tespri]

apparently in your country, corporal is just a fancy name for a private.

those things factor into how well you fight. morale can give you temporary hit points, for example, with HP being one of the most visible differences in the stat line. not hesitating can make you act and react faster, allowing you to get more attacks in, which, again, is one of the more visible differences in the stat line of the veteran in the monster manual. and sure, a very well trained soldier with no experience can be better than a very poorly trained soldier with experience. that doesn't somehow mean that hobgoblins with the exact same experience and level of training should somehow be worse. every single hobgoblin trains religiously. they are all highly trained, proficient, disciplined warriors as their day job. there is nothing about humans that somehow transforms them into gods of war when they have the same kind of training.

meteor swarm is a level 9 spell, and frankly if you're facing someone that can cast meteor swarm, your whole army should just never even start moving. it is *certainly* not at all common, and should largely be a non-factor in war situations.

your arrow doesn't need to get past the wizard's defenses. so long as some of the hundreds of arrows that you and your buddies shoot (yes, even with disadvantage, some significant portion will hit) get through, the wizard is screwed. he can get pretty good defense. that will make the wizard get fewer times. it will not make the wizard not get hit.

armies still don't face dragons, broadly speaking. that's what heroes are for. as noted above, clerics and wizards are not going to be that hard to deal with until they're super high level, at which point it is once again a scenario where you don't send an army, but it still isn't fireball you're afraid of, it's that you are going to get completely and utterly wrecked by something else which won't even give you the opportunity to retaliate, because 20% chance to die is a sucker's bet when you have options that make you more likely to die from choking on your morning cereal than from the army accomplishing anything.

a moment ago you were insisting that there were tons of creatures smarter than a 20 int wizard. now you're just insisting that even though there aren't, that's just because those creatures which you were previously insisting were the super geniuses of the world don't actually need intelligence to survive. well then why did you even bring it up? i mean, if you *genuinely* think it isn't important, why did you whip it out when i suggested that 20 int means you *are* a super genius?

thse "typical" geniuses that you've met probably haven't devoted their life to "how not to get killed by people that really want to kill you". i expect they have plenty of plans to cover the things they want to do, and while it is true that they can be caught off guard... it is utter nonsense to suggest that it's going to be a trivial thing to catch them off guard, and that none of the plans they may have come up with will be remotely suitable. just because they have two dozen invisible stalkers via wish ==> planar binding at any given point in time primarily to pick off people that annoy them doesn't mean they're can't use those same invisible stalkers to capture or kill key figures in that army days in advance, or to kill off every supply wagon that tries to get food to the army, or to drop poison into the spring the army is going to camp next to tomorrow. just because they keep that poison around to prevent rats from shredding their spell books into nest materials doesn't mean they can't use it to poison the army.

these guys got to level 20 while being squishier than their colleagues by being smart enough to account for all the variables so far. that doesn't mean it's going to be impossible for you to introduce a variable they haven't considered, but it does mean that "the wizard has probably considered most common scenarios and prepared a variety of responses, many of which will be flexible, to deal with those scenarios" and thus has a counter for any given idea is pretty reasonable. they've been spending years dealing with people coming up with plans to kill them. you probably aren't the first person to try whatever it is you want to try, and you probably won't be the last.

just like those pit fiends and balors have managed to stay at the top of the heap in their respective hierarchies in spite of constant attempts to kill them (or discredit them and get them demoted into a lesser form of demon/devil, etc, etc, etc) by that same thing.
"apparently in your country, corporal is just a fancy name for a private."
It's not. Because it still holds authority over privates. However it's usually given for distinguished service. When you are part of regular army or earned it through action.

"those things factor into how well you fight. morale can give you temporary hit points, for example, with HP being one of the most visible differences in the stat line. "
There is no morale system in DnD. Therefore your argument over moral is pointless.

"not hesitating can make you act and react faster, allowing you to get more attacks in, which, again, is one of the more visible differences in the stat line of the veteran in the monster manual."
Sure, but here is the thing which you fail to understand. Even if you don't hesitate, without training you will still do poor job. And I repeat according to monster manual veteran is simply someone who fights professionally. It's stat block is meant for units that are professional fighters.

"nd sure, a very well trained soldier with no experience can be better than a very poorly trained soldier with experience. "
In the age of rifles, which should be easier to train and use than a bow. We still have large difference between someone who has actually trained to shoot than someone who just simply shoots in the hoods. The difference is even larger when it comes to swords and bows. Even if I would manage to survive one battle and be called as veteran after it. My swordplay would still be worse than a someone who has actually trained it. My accuracy with bow and pulling power of it would also be bad, when compared to someone who has trained to use it.

"ences in the stat line of the veteran in the monster manual. and sure, a very well trained soldier with no experience can be better than a very poorly trained soldier with experience. that doesn't somehow mean that hobgoblins with the exact same experience and level of training should somehow be worse. "
DnD is racists game. It believes in racial superiority. Hobgoblins are monster race and aren't as strong as non-monsters. You should know this by know, that different races have different stat bonuses.

"they are all highly trained, proficient, disciplined warriors as their day job. there is nothing about humans that somehow transforms them into gods of war when they have the same kind of training."
Basic guard has better stats than your cheapest hobgoblin. In fact basic bandit has as well. While I remind you, that these stats would increase even more when you pick race for them. Since these are basic templates, and racials are suppose to be added. In fact the fact that bandit captain has better CR than you "professional uber killer hobgoblin" points out that common hobgoblin warrior is a slightly less of a joke than a goblin warrior.

"
meteor swarm is a level 9 spell, and frankly if you're facing someone that can cast meteor swarm, your whole army should just never even start moving. it is *certainly* not at all common, and should largely be a non-factor in war situations."
Scenario is fighting against single 20 level wizard. In war situations there would be multiple wizards and divine casters in the field. Even in that bs claim that most magic users are dead. It still haven't removed divine casters. Which get their power directly from their deities. That should be very common thing to see.


"your arrow doesn't need to get past the wizard's defenses. so long as some of the hundreds of arrows that you and your buddies shoot (yes, even with disadvantage, some significant portion will hit) get through, the wizard is screwed."
Expect it's virtually impossible to hit him when you have disadvantage and he has AC over 20. Even if you hit, he would still have enough HP. And you're purposefully ignoring wall spells which render arrows useless.

"armies still don't face dragons, broadly speaking. "
When they face level 17-20 wizards, then they sure do face a dragon. Also you would still plan your armies to combat against dragons. Especially since they are known from their greed and some of them are evil. What dragon wouldn't attack your city just to steal your artifacts and money, if he knew that he could get away with it?

"that's what heroes are for. as noted above"
This assumption is pretty silly. Since you in weird state of mind that in DnD world, only adventurer can reach the highest peak of skills. Archmage creature already proves you wrong. It's basically 17-20 level wizard since it can cast level 9 spells. And his CR is 12. May I remind you... CR doesn't translate to level. Fun fact... ARchmage has also 20 int.

" clerics and wizards are not going to be that hard to deal with until they're super high level"
One cleric alone with low level spell can wipe out one squad of yours made out of guards stat block. 3d8 is a lot for someone with so low stat. He could wipe even squad of hobgoblins.

"a moment ago you were insisting that there were tons of creatures smarter than a 20 int wizard. now you're just insisting that even though there aren't, that's just because those creatures which you were previously insisting were the super geniuses of the world don't actually need intelligence to survive."
Were talking about mythical creatures with supernatural powers that common man could never even fight against. Even with intelligence of a panther they could wipe out adventurers who charge headlong at them.

"well then why did you even bring it up?"
Since you can't think on your own, let me explain. I brought it up to make a point that 20 intelligence isn't something special. If it were then world would be already owned by one of those beings.

"thse "typical" geniuses that you've met probably haven't devoted their life to "how not to get killed by people that really want to kill you"."
You just stated that geniuses prepare literally for everything. Then they should prepare for that as well. Also devoted their life? Life is pretty much about avoiding not getting killed and ensuring that your offsprings won't get killed either. And even in cases where genius has devoted their life on something, they still haven't prepared for everything. How old are you? There is no way that adult could say things that you have stated.

" it is utter nonsense to suggest that it's going to be a trivial thing to catch them off guard"
You would be surprised. You see in order not to be taken off guard, you would need to have omniscience. You would literally need to know every factor that exists.

" just because they have two dozen invisible stalkers via wish"
Using wish is not part of the rules of this discussion. In fact it was clearly stated that wish should be ignored since it allows you to break game. Heck two dozen invisible stalkers is nothing compared of creating infinite amount of dragons.

"planar binding at any given point in time "
Have you even read what planar binding does and how long it takes to cast it?

"hat annoy them doesn't mean they're can't use those same invisible stalkers to capture or kill key figures"
Yes... In the world filled with magic... Where kings have archmages as advisors to them... No one would ever expect that when fighting against high level wizard, they might face invisible stalkers. You're putting real world standards. They are not ancient human armies. They are people living in fantasy world filled with monsters and magic. You would need to be retard for not taking into account that enemy forces use magic. It would be fairly obvious that every army would have high level casters with them.

"these guys got to level 20 while being squishier than their colleagues by being smart enough to account for all the variables so far."
Nope, they got that far because of magic. It seems that you have weird delusion that player who plays as a wizard is a super genius if he reaches level 20. This would explain a lot over your fanboyism.



So sentries aren't soldiers, and someone hired to fight for you isn't a professional. Ok.

It's stated nobles hire Guards as bodyguards, and the passage of the DMG you quoted say each noble has a regiment of them to help defend the city.

You think that nobles, who have money, power and the desire to stay alive, would hire people who are worse at fighting than the ones in the army?
Again you keep ignoring city watch. Your whole argument about sentries is refuted with that when it comes to stat block. Also as people pointed out. city guards already have better stat block than your favorite race. Meaning they are superior to your monster race by their nature.

And how is nobles hiring guards relevant?

"would hire people who are worse at fighting than the ones in the army?"
Do you have any idea how much professional army costs? With your reasoning bill gates doesn't own a guard, but a genetically enchanted super soldier instead. When you are in city, you need guards to keep common rabble away. Big monsters and threats usually lurk outside of the city.

[KorvinStarmast]

Realistically speaking. Ancient formations used by humans in the past wouldn't be used in the world filled with magic, in fact they would have some form of a modern warfare style of approach. I was reading an old Dragon mag article last week wherein one of the original authors noted that, in Chainmail, wizards were modeled after artillery. Likewise with magic users in the original D&D game. So not just realistically speaking, also gameist speaking. :smallbiggrin: Then again, in WW I they were still attacking in formation, as had been shown to be a bad idea in the US Civil War ... so if you are in a high magic world, yeah, skirmisher formations. In a low magic world, where magic is hard to come by ... maybe not.

[Zonugal]

Hey Tespri, perhaps that line of discussion would be better suited for a private message?

But keeping in line with the thread, I think I'd probably field a huge army of Mountain Dwarves.

Every single member of the race is a competent warrior and through Mason's Tools you can have them deal double damage to structures (according ot Xanathar's Guide).

My primary tactic would be the siege the Wizard's castle and get my army out of the field and into his fortification.

[Tanarii]

I was reading an old Dragon mag article last week wherein one of the original authors noted that, in Chainmail, wizards were modeled after artillery. Likewise with magic users in the original D&D game.
Which answers the OP question:
Get your own army to hide behind and give supporting fire to.

[Tespri]

I was reading an old Dragon mag article last week wherein one of the original authors noted that, in Chainmail, wizards were modeled after artillery. Likewise with magic users in the original D&D game. So not just realistically speaking, also gameist speaking. :smallbiggrin: Then again, in WW I they were still attacking in formation, as had been shown to be a bad idea in the US Civil War ... so if you are in a high magic world, yeah, skirmisher formations. In a low magic world, where magic is hard to come by ... maybe not.

WW1 was trench warfare. Traditional formations were abandoned at the time. But yeah there would be pretty much nothing but skirmisher formations. Also to point out volo's guide in here. They make it actually pretty clear on roles of some npc characters. Like even archer has CR of 3.

Sure magic users are "rare" but not any rarer than engineers, medics etc... It just means that they aren't the average folk.


Hey Tespri, perhaps that line of discussion would be better suited for a private message?

But keeping in line with the thread, I think I'd probably field a huge army of Mountain Dwarves.

Every single member of the race is a competent warrior and through Mason's Tools you can have them deal double damage to structures (according ot Xanathar's Guide).

My primary tactic would be the siege the Wizard's castle and get my army out of the field and into his fortification.

No, fits perfectly here. Since what your wizard could actually do to DnD army, depends highly on what sort of armies would people have in DnD world.
You cannot state how you would attack an army if you don't know what sort of army you're attacking.
For some weird reason these people insists that DnD world's armies would be made out of useless garbage that could be wiped out from the map by single spellcaster. Which is a statement that would make no sense realistically. No one in their sane mind would create an army that could be wiped out by single monster or a crazed caster.
Adventurers are generally simply used as covert forces doing surgical strikes. Their role pretty much never is to face army in the field. Take them as highly expensive mercenaries.

[Unoriginal]

. I think it's impossible to defeat an army of significant size, even if they're all CR 1/2, without time and preparation

Interesting hypothesis.

Let's test it, shall we?

Side 1:

500 CR 1/2 hobgoblin soldiers.

Side 2:

Gartok, 1 level 20 hobgoblin Champion Fighter.

AC 23 (Plate Armor (magic +2) + Shield + Defense)

HP 224 (15+ (11*19))

STR 20 (15 +2 ASI + Heavy Armor Master)
DEX 8
CON 20 (14+2 + 2 ASI)
INT 11 (10+1)
WIS 13
CHA 12

Initiative: +4 (-1 + 5 (Alert))

Speed: 40ft (Mobile)

Action:

Longsword: +11, 11 damages (1d8+2+5), 15 damages (1d8+2+5) in case of crits.


Fighting Style: Dueling, Defense
Second Wind
Martial Archetype
Ability Score Improvement
Ability Score Improvement
Ability Score Improvement
Action Surge (two uses)
Indomitable (three uses)
Extra Attack (3)


Improved Critical
Remarkable Athlete
Additional Fighting Style
Superior Critical
Survivor

Feats:

Heavy Armor Master
Mobile
Alert


Environment: featureless plain, the sides starting with 150ft of empty terrain between them.
Positioning:

Side 1: 5 ranks of 100 hobgoblins, in a rectangle
Side 2: One guy alone

Magic items: Plate Armor +2 for Gartok

The hobgolin mooks, with their +3 to hit, need a 20 or more to hit Gartok. Which mean only 5% of their attacks will connect, and will deal 9 damages because of the crit, with 7 additional damages if they can use their Martial Advantage, and with -3 damage per hit due to Heavy Armor Master, so 6 normally and 13 wtih MA. Meanwhile, Gartok has +11, and compared to the hobgoblins' AC it means he will hit 70% of the time. His damages are enough to one-shot an hobgoblin on average, crit or not. Which means that for 4 attacks, ~3 will hit and kill.

Initiative: Side 2 wins on average.

Turn 1:

Side 2: Gartok takes the Dodge action, moves 40ft.

Side 1: Attack action with longbow. 500 times. Disadvantage due to Dodge. 1 crit, for a total of 6 damages

Distance remaining: 110ft
Gartok's HPs: 118


Turn 2

Side 2: Gartok takes the Dash action, moves 80 ft, then Action Surge and take the Dodge action.

Side 1: Half of the first rank discard their bow for their shields. The rest take the Attack action with Longbow. 450 time. Disadvantage due to Dodge. 1 crit, for a total of 6 damages.

Distance remaining: 30ft
Gartok's HPs: 172


Turn 3

Side 2: Gartok moves 30 ft. Attack action, 3 killed. Action Surge for Dodge.

Side 1: 3 hobgoblins advance to take the place of those killed, a total of 8 hobgoblins surround Gartok. 8 attacks with Martial Advantage. Disadvantage, no hit.

Due to their comrades being in the way, the hobgoblins past the 2nd rank cannot attack (total cover). First 2 rank: 150 Attack actions with Longbow. Disadvantage. ~0.4 hit, total 5 damages.

Distance remaining: 0ft
Gartok's HPs: 167
Hobgoblin killed: 3

Turn 4

Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed. Second Wind for +25 HPs

Side 1: Movement. Gartok is now surrounded by 48 hobgoblins, in 3 ranks. The archers can't attack him, but don't discard their bow yet. They will discard them progressively to provide backup in melee.

8 hobgoblins can attack. 0.4 hit, total 5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 187
Hobgoblin killed: 6


Turn 5


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 176.5
Hobgoblin killed: 9

Turn 6


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 166
Hobgoblin killed: 12

Turn 7


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 155.5
Hobgoblin killed: 15

Turn 8


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 145
Hobgoblin killed: 18

Turn 9


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 134.5
Hobgoblin killed: 21


Turn 10


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 134.5
Hobgoblin killed: 21

Turn 11


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 134.5
Hobgoblin killed: 21

Turn 12


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 124
Hobgoblin killed: 24

Turn 13


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 113.5
Hobgoblin killed: 27

Turn 14


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 103
Hobgoblin killed: 27

Turn 15 to 171


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed. Survivor kicks in for +10 HPs.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 102.5 -> 102 ->101.5 etc, take 78 damages until turn 171
Hobgoblin killed: 33 -> 36 ->39 etc, until turn 171 where the last enemy dies

Restults: Approximately 17 minutes after the start of the fight, a Champion emerges from the pile of 500 enemies he just killed.

With no preparation except wearing his equipment and being rested, without much optimisation, and with a single +2 magic item.

[Zonugal]

No, fits perfectly here. Since what your wizard could actually do to DnD army, depends highly on what sort of armies would people have in DnD world.
You cannot state how you would attack an army if you don't know what sort of army you're attacking.
For some weird reason these people insists that DnD world's armies would be made out of useless garbage that could be wiped out from the map by single spellcaster. Which is a statement that would make no sense realistically. No one in their sane mind would create an army that could be wiped out by single monster or a crazed caster.
Adventurers are generally simply used as covert forces doing surgical strikes. Their role pretty much never is to face army in the field. Take them as highly expensive mercenaries.

In your campaign, sure. In others? Maybe not!

So unless you're going to offer some mechanics here, you're just screaming that others need to follow your version of the game.

[Unoriginal]

"No one in their sane mind would create an army that could be wiped out by single monster or a crazed caster."

Yes, they would, because monsters or casters who can do that kind of things are world-shakers who show up maybe once a century. Most humanoids don't have the capacity to become a tenth as strong as that kind of person or creatures.

[Zonugal]

Here is my most basic infantry to send at a wizard.

These guys can be built as commoners (using a stat array of 12, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) and cost 77 gp to outfit. They also deal double damage to structures and having a working knowledge of fortifications.

Dwarven Soldier
Mountain Dwarf with the Soldier background
Medium humanoid (dwarf), Lawful Neutral
Armor class 15 (scale-mail)
Hit points 9 (1d8+1)
Speed 25 ft.
---
Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
---
Saving Throws --
Skills Artisan's Tools (Masons Tools) +2, Athletics +3, Gaming Set (Dragon Chess) +2, Intimidation +2, and Vehicles (Land) +2
Feats --
Senses passive Perception 8; Darkvision (60 ft.)
Languages Common and Dwarven
Challenge 1
---
Special Abilities
Racial Abilities: Darkvision (60 ft.), Dwarven Resilience, Dwarven Armor Training, Dwarven Combat Training, Stonecunning, and Tool Proficiency
Background Abilities: Military Rank
Class Abilities: --
---
Actions
Hand-Axe. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft/60 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d6+1) slashing damage; light, thrown (20/60)
Light Hammer. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft/60 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4+1) bludgeoning damage; light, thrown (20/60)
Battle-Axe. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d10+1) slashing damage; versatile (1d10)
---
Equipment: a battle-axe, a belt pouch (15 gp), a set of common clothes, a gaming set (Dragon Chess), hand-axe, an explorer's pack, an insignia of rank, light hammer, mason's tools, scale-mail armor, a trophy taken from a fallen enemy (a broken wand)

[the_brazenburn]

Here is my most basic infantry to send at a wizard.

These guys can be built as commoners (using a stat array of 12, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) and cost 77 gp to outfit. They also deal double damage to structures and having a working knowledge of fortifications.

Dwarven Soldier
Mountain Dwarf with the Soldier background
Medium humanoid (dwarf), Lawful Neutral
Armor class 15 (scale-mail)
Hit points 9 (1d8+1)
Speed 25 ft.
---
Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
---
Saving Throws --
Skills Artisan's Tools (Masons Tools) +2, Athletics +3, Gaming Set (Dragon Chess) +2, Intimidation +2, and Vehicles (Land) +2
Feats --
Senses passive Perception 8; Darkvision (60 ft.)
Languages Common and Dwarven
Challenge 1
---
Special Abilities
Racial Abilities: Darkvision (60 ft.), Dwarven Resilience, Dwarven Armor Training, Dwarven Combat Training, Stonecunning, and Tool Proficiency,
Background Abilities: Military Rank
Class Abilities: --
---
Actions
Hand-Axe. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft/60 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d6+1) slashing damage; light, thrown (20/60)
Light Hammer. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft/60 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4+1) bludgeoning damage; light, thrown (20/60)
Battle-Axe. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d10+1) slashing damage; versatile (1d10)
---
Equipment: a battle-axe, a belt pouch (15 gp), a set of common clothes, a gaming set (Dragon Chess), hand-axe, an explorer's pack, an insignia of rank, light hammer, mason's tools, scale-mail armor, a trophy taken from a fallen enemy (a broken wand)

Just wondering, what's the point of both the light hammers and handaxes?

[Zonugal]

Just wondering, what's the point of both the light hammers and handaxes?

Versatility? Also, I like the idea of Dwarven soldiers having weapons that could also serve as tools if needed.

[KorvinStarmast]

WW1 was trench warfare. Traditional formations were abandoned at the time. But yeah there would be pretty much nothing but skirmisher formations. Having studied WWI in some detail, I will suggest that you do likewise, as your one sentence summary does not embody all of the forms of war that WW I took, though the trench, artillery, and more lethal rifles and machine guns certainly made their mark. The Germans developed some very effective storm troop tactics (Read Rommel's Infanterie Greift An (Infantry Attacks!) ) for an excellent summary of the better way to deal with the problems that western front static warfare presented, and his success in the Italian / Tyrol campaign). In the first few months of the war the "trench warfare" mode had not yet set in: undispersed infantry attacks ran into the problem of industrial aged warfare again and again. Later on, Somme becomes a well worn example of that problem, but line abreast attacks by the French infantry being disrupted by rifle/artillery/machine gun fire were already well documented in 1914. Verdun is a superb example of the static warfare problem faced on both sides.

Also suggest you look up a bit on the Eastern Front and the campaigns versus the Turks.
Tannenberg, for example, was hardly trench warfare. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg) The more static fighting on the Eastern Front where my grandfather was gassed later in the war was in a more static sector.

[JackPhoenix]

Hey Tespri, perhaps that line of discussion would be better suited for a private message?

But keeping in line with the thread, I think I'd probably field a huge army of Mountain Dwarves.

Every single member of the race is a competent warrior and through Mason's Tools you can have them deal double damage to structures (according ot Xanathar's Guide).

My primary tactic would be the siege the Wizard's castle and get my army out of the field and into his fortification.

Army of half-orcs would be better. Relentless Endurance ensures they survive at least one hit.

Or combined warfare, dwarves for engineers, half-orcs for infantry, elves for ranged support (every elf knows how to use longbow). Stealthed halflings behind everyone else, just because. Too bad tiefling's Hellish Rebuke requires level 3 and has only 60' range, horde of tieflings would be funny against AoE users.

[Unoriginal]

I'd have thought me claiming a Champion can fight an army and win would be met with skepticism.

[Tespri]

In your campaign, sure. In others? Maybe not!

So unless you're going to offer some mechanics here, you're just screaming that others need to follow your version of the game.
In most official campaigns. This includes video game ones as well. In some custom campaigns you probably end up facing some armies, however you're not addressing my argument. There is no reason to assume that some random hobos are only ones who can reach pinnacle of skill and power.


"No one in their sane mind would create an army that could be wiped out by single monster or a crazed caster."

Yes, they would, because monsters or casters who can do that kind of things are world-shakers who show up maybe once a century. Most humanoids don't have the capacity to become a tenth as strong as that kind of person or creatures.
"Yes, they would, because monsters or casters who can do that kind of things are world-shakers who show up maybe once a century. "
You're mixing up legendary monsters here. Even dragonborn army alone would wipe out your imaginary army. In fact dragonborns would be most dominate race. Those "once a century" monsters are something like tarrasque. So again... monsters and magic users aren't as rare as you try to claim them. Official campaigns should already make this clear.



Having studied WWI in some detail, I will suggest that you do likewise, as your one sentence summary does not embody all of the forms of war that WW I took, though the trench, artillery, and more lethal rifles and machine guns certainly made their mark. The Germans developed some very effective storm troop tactics (Read Rommel's Infanterie Greift An (Infantry Attacks!) ) for an excellent summary of the better way to deal with the problems that western front static warfare presented, and his success in the Italian / Tyrol campaign). In the first few months of the war the "trench warfare" mode had not yet set in: undispersed infantry attacks ran into the problem of industrial aged warfare again and again. Later on, Somme becomes a well worn example of that problem, but line abreast attacks by the French infantry being disrupted by rifle/artillery/machine gun fire were already well documented in 1914. Verdun is a superb example of the static warfare problem faced on both sides.

Also suggest you look up a bit on the Eastern Front and the campaigns versus the Turks.
Tannenberg, for example, was hardly trench warfare. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg) The more static fighting on the Eastern Front where my grandfather was gassed later in the war was in a more static sector.
Of course some places were different. Since different technologies and some people were too slow to figure out modern warfare. But people figured out the new meta. Standing in formations and shooting enemies was suicidal given new technological changes.

But yeah... Warfare in DnD world would be drastically different from ancient warfare unless wizards and clerics could cast some protective spells against spellcraft.

[Tanarii]

I'd have thought me claiming a Champion can fight an army and win would be met with skepticism.

Champion capstone changes things a fair amount.

I notice you also assumed the enemy can't fire Longbows through multiple creatures with just the cover penalty.

[Tespri]

I'd have thought me claiming a Champion can fight an army and win would be met with skepticism.

500 troops barely even makes an army. As stated before armies of the ancient times even in one battle did had around 10k people in both sides. This was from city states. Bigger empires had far more than that.

[Unoriginal]

Champion capstone changes things a fair amount.

I notice you also assumed the enemy can't fire Longbows through multiple creatures with just the cover penalty.

You need to see the person to fire at them with your longbow. I dunno for you, but 2-3 ranks for people in front of you generally block my view when I'm at the same height.


500 troops barely even makes an army. As stated before armies of the ancient times even in one battle did had around 10k people in both sides. This was from city states. Bigger empires had far more than that.

Well a Wizard would be unable to defeat 10'000 people, too.

[StoicLeaf]

I'd have thought me claiming a Champion can fight an army and win would be met with skepticism.

OK!

I don't like your calculations! I don't like how you're handling cover.
Let's ignore the hailstorm of arrows and get to the stabby part.

8 hobgoblins can surround gartok with longswords.
another 16 can form a second rank and, with spears, stab gartok.

avg. damage per round for poor ol' gartok (d10s for weapons, plus martial advantage): 24*0.05*25 = 30!
gartok's +10 self heal won't be offsetting that.

[Unoriginal]

In most official campaigns. This includes video game ones as well.

Not true, and video games are irrelevant for 5e.


There is no reason to assume that some random hobos are only ones who can reach pinnacle of skill and power.

Adventurers are not the only ones, but they're among the only ones. The reason to assume that is called "reading the books".



You're mixing up legendary monsters here.

You're arguing the chances of an army vs a level 20 adventurer. Legendary monsters are in the same weight class, if not higher.



Even dragonborn army alone would wipe out your imaginary army. In fact dragonborns would be most dominate race.

No they wouldn't. Yes, Dragonborn got their breath weapons, but once it's used up their mooks are just as tough as any humanoid mooks, and they're far less numerous than humans or dwarves.




Those "once a century" monsters are something like tarrasque.

We were talking about a level 20 magic user, which is just one order of magnitude less rare than a Tarrasque.

So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat.


So again... monsters and magic users aren't as rare as you try to claim them.

I'm not claiming monsters and magic users are rare. I'm claiming *very powerful* monsters and magic users are rare.

As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber.


Official campaigns should already make this clear.

Let's see what the last official campaign says about it, then:



The fort contains a winch for raising and lowering an immense iron chain stretched between the fort and the lighthouse. When the chain is raised, no ship can sail into or out of the harbor. The chain hasn't been raised against attackers in decades, but it's used occasionally to prevent a ship from slipping out of the harbor with criminals or contraband on board. The fort also mounts two ballistas that can launch heavy bolts or canisters of alchemist's fire. Its garrison consists of a noble (the castellan), four veterans (officers), and forty guards loyal to the merchant princes.



Aside from Commander Breakbone, the standard garrison at the base consists of fifty-eight people, though the actual number of effective warriors at any given time is usually lower due to sickness. Breakbone has two captains under his command: Ord Firebeard (LG male gold dwarf veteran) and Perne Salhana (LG female Tethyrian human veteran). Reporting to them is a fighting force comprised of eight veterans and twenty-four guards. This is supplemented by a religious corps of six acolytes led by Sister Cyas (LG female Chondathan human priest of Helm). Technically, the religious templars are part of the fighting force, but in practice, they spend most of their time tending the sick and wounded. Finally, the fort is supported by a ragtag troop of Chultan hunters and scouts consisting of fifteen tribal warriors led by Lorsa Bilwatal (CN female Chultan human scout) and Niles Breakbone's longtime friend, WulfRygor (CG male half elf scout).

Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort.

As you can see, the number of veterans is between ~10% and ~30% of the number of guards (or tribal warriors, who have the same CR).

And again, later:



The garrison consists of a castellan named Gruta Halsdottir (LN female Illuskan human knight), three corporals (veterans), and fifty-four privates (guards).


In addition, those who buy a charter can hire up to six Flaming Fist mercenaries (guards) to accompany them for the very reasonable rate of 1 gp per ten day each

So here you go. Guards as the most common professional soldiers AND mercenaries.

[Jack Bitters]

Seems like from all this we should be able to come up with a good mix of NPCs that would make up an army.

I'd also propose that there are two armies: the first army, as suggested by the OP, is full of CR 1/4 and CR 1/2 mooks. Probably mostly non-spellcasters; just an every day low-key medieval army bent on destroying your helpless village. Standard pillage and burn kind of operation. I doubt they are aware of the wizard's existence and proximity to the village. Assume fairly close-packed formations.

The second army would be composed of mostly veterans, guards, priests, and acolytes. Throw in a unit of scouts, as well, and maybe a handful of knights and mages at the core, protecting the leader. They would be hunting the wizard as revenge for the death of the first army; they should be a little more prepared. Assume not-so-closely packed formations.

By the published stats for military garrisons Unoriginal laid out, in a sample of 161 troops, there are:
one knight, one noble, one priest, 2 scouts, 6 acolytes, 15 tribal warriors, 17 veterans, and 118 guards.

EDIT: I realize that this really doesn't help much at all–making the wizard fight two armies–but the differences between the proposed armies are too vast to be ignored.

[Unoriginal]

By the published stats for military garrisons Unoriginal laid out, in a sample of 161 troops, there are:
one knight, one noble, one priest, 2 scouts, 6 acolytes, 15 tribal warriors, 17 veterans, and 118 guards.

Err, just to be clear, you're putting two separate garrisons together, here.

The composition of a garrison is still context dependent, I mean.

[Jack Bitters]

Err, just to be clear, you're putting two separate garrisons together, here.

The composition of a garrison is still context dependent, I mean.

Yeah I just mashed all three of them together. I don't own the source book.:smallfrown: Probably not the best way to go about it, but your point more or less stands. At least 8 guards for every veteran/more capable soldier.

[jojo]

Champion capstone changes things a fair amount.

I notice you also assumed the enemy can't fire Longbows through multiple creatures with just the cover penalty.

As was mentioned by someone else, it's better that they form a second rank of 16 with spears.

If they committed to engaging with Longbows they could dash to retreat over the featureless plain provided in the example and attack every other round pretty much indefinitely instead of allowing themselves to become engaged in melee.


500 troops barely even makes an army. As stated before armies of the ancient times even in one battle did had around 10k people in both sides. This was from city states. Bigger empires had far more than that.

Switching to the other side of the argument for a minute... the number of individuals that constitutes an "army" is highly dependent on where, when and who you're fighting. Cortes conquered the Aztec Empire with 500 men, for instance. :smalltongue:

As a Wizard working on the "Oh S**T an Army!" Scenario currently defined though I think we'd have to define what winning actually means. Do I absolutely have to run out in my bathrobe, boxers and bunny slippers to murder everyone in sight in order to win?

Personally I think not.

5e allows Wizards a lot of spell-casting flexibility, so even if I didn't intend to cast a particular spell I'm a lot more likely to have it prepared then I would have been in 3.5, Pathfinder or other systems.

Going off of my own play-style for Wizards past... and the assumption that the Army is preparing to move in and establish a siege with the goal of either taking over my city and killing me, or convincing the citizens to hand me over peacefully so I can be killed... and finally that they expect me to prepare to withstand a conventional siege...

I'd probably pop off a simulacrum, using Wish if necessary to keep them occupied and organize my defenses to withstand a siege. At that point I'd probably teleport on over to whatever Kingdom is now bereft of it's army and exploit the situation.

Change my appearance with Alter Self, start bemoaning and lamenting the idiotic actions of the local monarch, casting imprecations of divine intervention against their injustice. Use Mass Suggestion to really make it stick, then gather a really big crowd and gate in a pit fiend, just in case anyone was uncertain of the fact that their king is making god cry sad tears.
Teleport back home in time for a quick luncheon of cold meats and the finest cheeses.
True Polymorph my Simulacrum into a celestial or some other divine messenger and then send him out to tell the Army to GTFO. If they resist have him Smite the leader, then use teleport to send a few high ranking remainders back home to see what kind of destruction a Pit Fiend or Balor managed to wreak over the past couple hours.

Once they're convinced their actions have offended their gods... the Celestial Messenger can make it clear that they just need to bow to you, the mighty magical manipulator, who has been given the power of the Gods to undo the Balor... blah, blah, blah.

You've been scrying this of course, while communicating through Rary's Telepathic Bond with your Simulacrum, so the minute they agree you swoop in to save the day. Although the "avatar" of their god makes a big show of summoning you forth.

Then you banish the Balor, of course with the Celestial you making a big show of channeling their power through you.

Not only have you won, you did it in a manner that convinced the Mundalandians or whatever they're called that you're a divine prophet who speaks with the authority of their god, not just some guy with a wand.

As an added bonus your Simulacrum can't cast a whole lot of spells... but they're still a freaking Celestial, and they can go right ahead and affirm your earthly divinity by writing a new gospel or something...

[Tanarii]

Switching to the other side of the argument for a minute... the number of individuals that constitutes an "army" is highly dependent on where, when and who you're fighting. Cortes conquered the Aztec Empire with 500 men, for instance. :smalltongue:
More like 1500.

But more to the point, he did it by making lots of allies among local tribes. Not sure what the numbers are, so to Wikipedia! Pulling numbers from Wikipedia: He started off with 2000 native warriors, for the final push it was 20,000 native warriors. Total belligerents is listed as 80-200 thousand, but it appear that includes all the natives involved in the revolt, not ones directly under his command. "It is well accepted that Cortés’ indigenous allies, which may have numbered as many as 200,000 over the three-year period of the conquest, were indispensable to his success."

Anyway, "army" to me, on a quasi-medieval fantasy setting, has always implied maybe five to twenty thousand standing troops, broken into units of 250 to 1000. For an entire nation. But then, my view of what constitutes an army is heavily influenced by the BECMI War Machine rules and the Gazzateer series for the Known World / Mystara.

[smcmike]

Anyway, "army" to me, on a quasi-medieval fantasy setting, has always implied maybe five to twenty thousand standing troops, broken into units of 250 to 1000. For an entire nation. But then, my view of what constitutes an army is heavily influenced by the BECMI War Machine rules and the Gazzateer series for the Known World / Mystara.

Historical army sizes are REALLY hard to know - even eyewitnesses may not have a good estimate, and may have reason to inflate or deflate the numbers, and many accounts are written by people who never saw an army in their life, and who may have their own biases.

That being said, five to twenty thousand seems like a reasonable range for a serious army. I would quibble with the “standing troops” part, since there is considerable variation in terms of the professionalism of armies in different times and places, and plenty of armies were not composed of “standing troops.”

[Citan]

Interesting hypothesis.

Let's test it, shall we?

Side 1:

500 CR 1/2 hobgoblin soldiers.

Side 2:

Gartok, 1 level 20 hobgoblin Champion Fighter.

AC 23 (Plate Armor (magic +2) + Shield + Defense)

HP 224 (15+ (11*19))

STR 20 (15 +2 ASI + Heavy Armor Master)
DEX 8
CON 20 (14+2 + 2 ASI)
INT 11 (10+1)
WIS 13
CHA 12

Initiative: +4 (-1 + 5 (Alert))

Speed: 40ft (Mobile)

Action:

Longsword: +11, 11 damages (1d8+2+5), 15 damages (1d8+2+5) in case of crits.


Fighting Style: Dueling, Defense
Second Wind
Martial Archetype
Ability Score Improvement
Ability Score Improvement
Ability Score Improvement
Action Surge (two uses)
Indomitable (three uses)
Extra Attack (3)


Improved Critical
Remarkable Athlete
Additional Fighting Style
Superior Critical
Survivor

Feats:

Heavy Armor Master
Mobile
Alert


Environment: featureless plain, the sides starting with 150ft of empty terrain between them.
Positioning:

Side 1: 5 ranks of 100 hobgoblins, in a rectangle
Side 2: One guy alone

Magic items: Plate Armor +2 for Gartok

The hobgolin mooks, with their +3 to hit, need a 20 or more to hit Gartok. Which mean only 5% of their attacks will connect, and will deal 9 damages because of the crit, with 7 additional damages if they can use their Martial Advantage, and with -3 damage per hit due to Heavy Armor Master, so 6 normally and 13 wtih MA. Meanwhile, Gartok has +11, and compared to the hobgoblins' AC it means he will hit 70% of the time. His damages are enough to one-shot an hobgoblin on average, crit or not. Which means that for 4 attacks, ~3 will hit and kill.

Initiative: Side 2 wins on average.

Turn 1:

Side 2: Gartok takes the Dodge action, moves 40ft.

Side 1: Attack action with longbow. 500 times. Disadvantage due to Dodge. 1 crit, for a total of 6 damages

Distance remaining: 110ft
Gartok's HPs: 118


Turn 2

Side 2: Gartok takes the Dash action, moves 80 ft, then Action Surge and take the Dodge action.

Side 1: Half of the first rank discard their bow for their shields. The rest take the Attack action with Longbow. 450 time. Disadvantage due to Dodge. 1 crit, for a total of 6 damages.

Distance remaining: 30ft
Gartok's HPs: 172


Turn 3

Side 2: Gartok moves 30 ft. Attack action, 3 killed. Action Surge for Dodge.

Side 1: 3 hobgoblins advance to take the place of those killed, a total of 8 hobgoblins surround Gartok. 8 attacks with Martial Advantage. Disadvantage, no hit.

Due to their comrades being in the way, the hobgoblins past the 2nd rank cannot attack (total cover). First 2 rank: 150 Attack actions with Longbow. Disadvantage. ~0.4 hit, total 5 damages.

Distance remaining: 0ft
Gartok's HPs: 167
Hobgoblin killed: 3

Turn 4

Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed. Second Wind for +25 HPs

Side 1: Movement. Gartok is now surrounded by 48 hobgoblins, in 3 ranks. The archers can't attack him, but don't discard their bow yet. They will discard them progressively to provide backup in melee.

8 hobgoblins can attack. 0.4 hit, total 5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 187
Hobgoblin killed: 6


Turn 5


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 176.5
Hobgoblin killed: 9

Turn 6


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 166
Hobgoblin killed: 12

Turn 7


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 155.5
Hobgoblin killed: 15

Turn 8


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 145
Hobgoblin killed: 18

Turn 9


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 134.5
Hobgoblin killed: 21


Turn 10


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 134.5
Hobgoblin killed: 21

Turn 11


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 134.5
Hobgoblin killed: 21

Turn 12


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 124
Hobgoblin killed: 24

Turn 13


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 113.5
Hobgoblin killed: 27

Turn 14


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 103
Hobgoblin killed: 27

Turn 15 to 171


Side 2: Attack action, 3 killed. Survivor kicks in for +10 HPs.

Side 1: 3 moves to replace them. 4 hobgoblins attack, the 4 others Help. 0.8 hit, total 10.5 damages

Gartok's HPs: 102.5 -> 102 ->101.5 etc, take 78 damages until turn 171
Hobgoblin killed: 33 -> 36 ->39 etc, until turn 171 where the last enemy dies

Restults: Approximately 17 minutes after the start of the fight, a Champion emerges from the pile of 500 enemies he just killed.

With no preparation except wearing his equipment and being rested, without much optimisation, and with a single +2 magic item.
Hey ;)

Interesting exercise, but unless I'm totally out of my mind there are several big flaws in how you resolve the fight from the context you set.
Specifically that part...


Positioning:
Side 1: 5 ranks of 100 hobgoblins, in a rectangle
Side 2: One guy alone

Magic items: Plate Armor +2 for Gartok

The hobgolin mooks, with their +3 to hit, need a 20 or more to hit Gartok. Which mean only 5% of their attacks will connect, and will deal 9 damages because of the crit, with 7 additional damages if they can use their Martial Advantage, and with -3 damage per hit due to Heavy Armor Master, so 6 normally and 13 wtih MA. Meanwhile, Gartok has +11, and compared to the hobgoblins' AC it means he will hit 70% of the time. His damages are enough to one-shot an hobgoblin on average, crit or not. Which means that for 4 attacks, ~3 will hit and kill.

Initiative: Side 2 wins on average.

Turn 1:

[SPOILER]Side 2: Gartok takes the Dodge action, moves 40ft.

Side 1: Attack action with longbow. 500 times. Disadvantage due to Dodge. 1 crit, for a total of 6 damages


Then (I won't copy past all) you suppose that in following turns Champion Dashes with Action Surge thus putting himself in range for attacks in next turn, and goblins react by setting up shields.

First, on any turn, the number of attacks that hit will still be 5%, with or without disadvantage: between 1 and 1, not big of a difference right? Second, there is absolutely no reason why ALL hobgoblins wouldn't shoot, as you said.
So there are 500 attacks. So number of hits will be 500*(5/100) = 5*100*5/100= 25 attacks hitting.
Meaning, on a single turn, Champion will suffer an average of 25*6 (no way to check what Martial Advantage for now so I'll put out aside) at the very least: 25*6=150.
So technically just three turns would be enough to shut him down, even with Second Wind and Champion's regen in play.

Second, there is no reason why Hogbolins wouldn't back off to keep ideal range as long as possible, especially since disadvantage sources don't stack.
So if Hobgoblin's speed is 30 feet, then without Dashing Champion won't get to them before more than 5 turns.

Third, there is no reason why once Champion gets into close range, the closest Hobgoblins would NOT use Dodge themselves to provide some meat shield while their friends shoot arrows (again, they don't care about providing cover because 1 is 1 so disadvantage changes nothing here). Significantly lessening Champion's chance to hit since their AC is 18.
Alternatively, they could also spend a handful of them to Shove the Champion, then another handful to Grapple him: now Champion is restrained and would need to spend an action to break free.

Conclusion: with that build and that strategy, your Champion will be toast in a very few turns, although he may get some personal satisfaction from killing a few ones before falling.

For a Fighter to win, you'd actually need a hefty multiclass in either Life Cleric 1 + Bard 6 for Aura of Vitality, healing yourself with a bonus action (note that I'm unaware of the Xanathar's spells, maybe better option) or into Fiend Warlock 7 to start fight with a Fireball, then Eldricht Blast (providing THP), then another Fireball, quickly reducing the number of enemies.
Or Divine Soul Sorcerer to further boost your hp with Extended upcast Aid and buff yourself with Heroism.
Or any caster that can provide Blink, which is in this kind of situation the best defense spell you could get EVER.
Or Greater Invisibility paired with Elven boots and Rogue 2 to Hide every turn.

Or, simpler, Eldricht Knight with Sharpshooter and either Mobile or Athlete: casts Haste and kite the poor army (although this would require quite a big plain XD), or run far, use Mold Earth / Minor Illusion to create a cover and prone yourself behind, then on your turns stand up, shoot and prone again or back away to create another cover further.

[Tanarii]

If you need a 20 to hit and you have disadvantage, you have a 1/400 chance of hitting. 0.25%, Not 5%.

[Unoriginal]

First, on any turn, the number of attacks that hit will still be 5%, with or without disadvantage: between 1 and 1, not big of a difference right? Second, there is absolutely no reason why ALL hobgoblins wouldn't shoot, as you said.
So there are 500 attacks. So number of hits will be 500*(5/100) = 5*100*5/100= 25 attacks hitting.
Meaning, on a single turn, Champion will suffer an average of 25*6 (no way to check what Martial Advantage for now so I'll put out aside) at the very least: 25*6=150.
So technically just three turns would be enough to shut him down, even with Second Wind and Champion's regen in play.

Disadvantage play a big role. You only have 0.25 chances to get a crit when you have Disadvantage, not 5%. So no, this part of my calculation is accurate.



Second, there is no reason why Hogbolins wouldn't back off to keep ideal range as long as possible, especially since disadvantage sources don't stack.
So if Hobgoblin's speed is 30 feet, then without Dashing Champion won't get to them before more than 5 turns.

In theory, yes, but you're talking about 500 troops having to manoeuvre at once, to fight one guy. Hobgoblins might be disciplined, but they're also arrogant and they don't meet someone who can survive a volley of 500 arrows every day.



Third, there is no reason why once Champion gets into close range, the closest Hobgoblins would NOT use Dodge themselves to provide some meat shield while their friends shoot arrows (again, they don't care about providing cover because 1 is 1 so disadvantage changes nothing here). Significantly lessening Champion's chance to hit since their AC is 18.

Not sure what you mean, here.



Alternatively, they could also spend a handful of them to Shove the Champion, then another handful to Grapple him: now Champion is restrained and would need to spend an action to break free.

A maximum of 8 of them can try that. I admit I haven't done the calculations, but I really don't think that attempting a STR (Athletic) challenge against a lvl 20 champion when you only have +1 is a better use of your time than the Help action.



Conclusion: with that build and that strategy, your Champion will be toast in a very few turns, although he may get some personal satisfaction from killing a few ones before falling.

I disagree. Though I admit he could have more troubles if the hobgoblins used different tactics (like other pointed out, if the hobgoblins had spears he'd die).

In any case, the hobgoblins are an interesting challenge. They actually hit like Ogres, when they have buddies nearby.

[Dudewithknives]

A druid could give an army nightmares.

At level 20 they effectively have subtle spell on all the time.
They can have shift every round as a bonus action to renew HP as needed, even if they do get through the shapeshifter HP you still have your normal HP. (I know that only really works for Moon Druid, but I have literally never seen a druid that wasn't Moon.)
Elemental shape that lasts long enough to essentially be all day. If I was level 20 moon druid I am never going to be in my normal form, I will be in earth elemental form.

Level 20, whatever race, does not really matter, Moon Druid.
Feats: Alert, Magic Initiate: Wizard for Mage armor, Rest to boost Stats.

Round 1, with alert even in Earth Elemental Form you have a +4 on initiative vs their +1. That means that on average you should beat about 60% of them on initiative.
You also have average of 126Hp in elemental form, and resistance to their attacks, and AC 17.
Vs an army of 500.
40% will get an initiative higher than you and attack, that is 200 of them
with an AC of 17 and their to hit bonus of +3, that means they need a 14+ to hit you. That is 60 of them
Each hit will average 5.5 damage. That is 330 damage
You take half damage due to resistance. That makes it 165.
They actually knocked you out of wild shape and did 40 damage or so.

Your initiative:
1. Your action: Cast storm of Vengeance, that thing is 720ft diameter of army killing.
Your Bonus action, Turn into another Earth Elemental
Movement Burrow 20 feet into the ground.
From there just concentrate, many of them will be dead by round 2 on average rolls, all of them will be dead by round 4 if they are still in the area.

Either way there is no way there will be enough to chew through your mountain of HP anymore so feel free to go earth elemental/cast spell/recast wild shape to renew Hp until they are dead, or just cast Tsunami after the Storm of Vengeance is over. they had to leave the area to live so they are at disadvantage to shoot from whatever range they made it to. Although more than likely there are not nearly enough left to matter.

[RickAllison]

Honestly, and it is a cheap shot, but True Polymorph/Shapechange works for the wizard gloriously. Turn into a Rakshasa and cherry-tap each enemy once. Their weapons do nothing and, when you have love-tapped as many as you wish, you Dimension Door away and run away while casting Phantom Steed. You don't Teleport away because you want them to follow you. You want them making forced march checks in pursuit and to be far away their home. Then, when they inevitably rest, so many of their forces simply don't feel any better in the morning. The army is exhausted, they have accomplished nothing, and the wizard is free to do it again. Oh, and you can't even Counterspell the dang Dimension Door or magically damage the Rakshasa in case they have casters.

Or just turn into a demilich. Fly into the army and reap the souls of the pathetic warriors with Howl. If you get low on health, drain some fools! Or an androsphinx; that third roar especially will wreck anyone close enough to shoot you.

[JackPhoenix]

Snippity snip

Or, because nobody can be bothered to actually roll 1000 attacks, you use mob rules from DMG. As they need 20 to hit, the rules say the champion gets hit once per every 20 attackers (yes, actual math doesn't work out that way, but whatever, it's much more advantageous to use mob rules than rolling it out, especially with disadvantage.). That means the 500 man (hobgoblin) army gets 25 hits (interestingly, the same number Citan reached by his mistaken calculations). The champion gets hit for 125 damage per round before he reaches melee. As there's no need to dodge, as disadvantage doesn't do anything in this case, it would take the champion 2 turns before he reaches melee range. Unfortunately, he'll be dead by then.

Well, more than anything, this demonstrates that the mob rules are... eh.

[Citan]

Disadvantage play a big role. You only have 0.25 chances to get a crit when you have Disadvantage, not 5%. So no, this part of my calculation is accurate.

Errr, right, not sure how my mind got twisted here, I mixed critical hit and critical fail. Ahem. XD
You are right, no miss in that part indeed. :)

On the rest...
1. About movement troops
You are speaking about an army that marched in an organized way. There is no reason why they wouldn't know how to actually engage while maintaining order. And there is no particular reason either to not roll Initiative as a group, because, again, this is an army, an organized group with scouts and predefined group movements.

2. About Dodging:
Hobgoblin has 18 AC. Paladin has +11. Meaning chance to hit is 70% without activating GWM, 45% chance with. If creatures Dodging, that drops to 49% and 20% chance respectively. Although I don't see why Champion would gamble on GWM when he's pretty sure to end a creature in 1-2 hits already. Still, with 4 attacks a round, its chance to kill Goblins would go from "probably 2, maybe 3 per round" to "probably 1".

3. About Shoving and Grappling: once in contact, best bet for Hobgoblins is rushing to Paladin and Shove + Grapple him. Let's say Fighter is proficient in Athletics to put all chances on his side: he has +11 to roll. Hobgoblins have 12 DEX, 13 STR, so +1 only. Obviously chances are on the side of Champion. But the other side has numbers: as a medium size creature, they can grapple Champion, in addition to shoving him. So who cares if the army loses 2, 5, 10 goblins in the process? Please display the probability calculation if you know how to do it, my maths are too far away in the past. What I'm pretty sure of though is that Paladin WILL get prone AND restrained.
By the way sorry but you are mistaken: there is no reason why only 8 would try: you know they can move AFTER trying their luck: so conservative number would be rather 16, maybe even 20.

And once he's prone, his attacks are made with disadvantage, and everyone else has advantage within 5 feet. Pushing chances of melee attackers to 10%: considering a medium size creature, and 30 feet speed, you can expect a few dozen Hobgoblins to get a better shot at Champion while everyone else is still using arrows or using Dash to create a live circular wall. Because confer previous point: there is no reason why they would stick around after trying their luck as long as they still have some speed. "Worst case", if this is REALLY a professional army, the firstcomers that don't have enough speed left could just put themselves prone and let other people walk on them: admiteddly that is pushing very far (I don't see such creatures being this dedicated honestly, but at the same time I know little around fluff). ^^ Anyways, back on tracks...
AND because there is (at least) one Hobgoblin grappling him, they can activate Martial thingy too, severely pushing their damage to your aforementioned 13 average.
So the amount of damage Champion will be dealt will be probably more about somewhere between 40 and 80 in that single turn, depending on how many Hobgoblins could reach him, try their luck and make way for others in the first (Shove+Grapple) and second phase (attacks). And that is only for melee: you could have 2/3 of the army firing while the Champion was still standing (5% chance to hit if Champion actually engaged in "making contact" turn instead of Dodgin) so 5% chance to hit, while the last third split between Grapples, Shoves, Attacks and tactical surround (1/3 of 500 is around 170 if I approximate well: take 100 of them just Dashing around to surround, you still have 70 of them for the melee part).

But there is worse: because Champion is prone, his only chances to break the condition are succeeding on a check (taking action) or killing the grappler(s). If there is only one grappler, and provided it's accepted that Champion can use his two-handed weapon normally (I mean, by RAW it perfectly can, just hinting that some DM may find it strange depending on how the Hobgoblin is supposed to be grappling, or if there are 3+ Hobgoblins grappling him), obviously his best chance is wacking away: with luck, one hit will be enough. With very bad luck (miss and poor damage roll), he may need 3 of his 4 attacks to kill it.

But there is worse: let's say there was only one grappler, and Champîon killed it: now he has to stand up, using half of his 40 feet speed. Now there is 20 left. Obviously the Hobgoblins will have created a circle around him, so he can't run away, and he can at best kill 1-2 creatures. OR, he could Dodge but this would serve no purpose. OR, he could Dash and try a high jump above one creature.

And then comes the Hobgoblins's turn again: rinse and repeat.
Any mundane martial, even this Champion, WILL go down eventually if he tries the melee way. There is just too much difference in numbers. You covered AC well, but there are many other factors. ;)

[Dudewithknives]

To break it down in simplest terms.

Classes that can win with ease.
Moon Druid
Because at level 20 they are not dieing unless you can cut through their WS HP and their normal class HP, and they will start in a wildshape form. If they are smart it will be an earth elemental.

Classes that can win with a little luck or strategy.
Any Bard, Warlock, Druid, Sorcerer (only if they took Wish as their 9th level spell), or Wizard that lives long enough to get off a spell.
Cleric but only the arcana domain ones.

This is because those classes can pick the best 9th level spells.

Classes that could not win:
All non-full casters and Clerics that are not Arcana Domain.

[JackPhoenix]

To break it down in simplest terms.

Classes that can win with ease.
Moon Druid
Because at level 20 they are not dieing unless you can cut through their WS HP and their normal class HP, and they will start in a wildshape form. If they are smart it will be an earth elemental.

Classes that can win with a little luck or strategy.
Any Bard, Warlock, Druid, Sorcerer (only if they took Wish as their 9th level spell), or Wizard that lives long enough to get off a spell.
Cleric but only the arcana domain ones.

This is because those classes can pick the best 9th level spells.

Classes that could not win:
All non-full casters and Clerics that are not Arcana Domain.

Any cleric has Divine Intervention with 100% success chance. "Remove enemy army" is well within the capabilities of most deities.

[Dudewithknives]

Any cleric has Divine Intervention with 100% success chance. "Remove enemy army" is well within the capabilities of most deities.

That ability is 100% up to DM interpretation and is not reliable.

One DM might have the diety themself come down from the heavens and fight with you, another one might just give you an automatic 20 on your next attack roll, all it says is that copying a cleric spell or domain spell is appropriate.

I have never seen a DM that would let you wipe out an army with it.

Most DMs just let you use any cleric spell for free, which won't help because clerics do not get the broken spells the arcane casters get or the one or two that druids get that are amazing.

[RickAllison]

A Rogue 20 actually stands a fairly glorious chance IF they do not directly engage. A high-level rogue can nickel-and-dime the army, and I don't think they can actually track down the darn guy. How do you take down someone who can A) outrun you, B) Hide so well that you can't spot them on a 20, and C) has a variety of other powerful features that further skew the game in their favor.

Assassin or Mastermind? Sow dissent within their ranks (funnily enough, the assassination tricks actually go to waste). Arcane Trickster? I don't think I need to explain why spells are good. Thief? He gets to take two turns while you are still reeling, and likely has powerful magic items! Scout can ambush all day long. Swashbuckler and Inquisitive get the short stick here, I think, as they are better against single opponents.

[Jack Bitters]

Hey, we can make a case for Cleric. All you have to do is cast Spirit Guardians and then Sanctuary and run around semi-invincible while your ancestors decimate their ranks. Next, be a life cleric and cast Regeneration on yourself. You'll heal for 10 hp/turn.

If we assume somehow that the enemy only hits on a 20 and their wisdom save is effectively +0 while your DC is 19, then their chance to damage you is 1/4000. Damage done is a crit, being 10 damage total.

Only thing wrong with this is that everyone can just kite the cleric around for days. Clerics are notoriously slow, both in walking speed and in religious reform. :smallwink:

[Tespri]

Not true, and video games are irrelevant for 5e.



Adventurers are not the only ones, but they're among the only ones. The reason to assume that is called "reading the books".



You're arguing the chances of an army vs a level 20 adventurer. Legendary monsters are in the same weight class, if not higher.



No they wouldn't. Yes, Dragonborn got their breath weapons, but once it's used up their mooks are just as tough as any humanoid mooks, and they're far less numerous than humans or dwarves.




We were talking about a level 20 magic user, which is just one order of magnitude less rare than a Tarrasque.

So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat.



I'm not claiming monsters and magic users are rare. I'm claiming *very powerful* monsters and magic users are rare.

As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber.



Let's see what the last official campaign says about it, then:






Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort.

As you can see, the number of veterans is between ~10% and ~30% of the number of guards (or tribal warriors, who have the same CR).

And again, later:





So here you go. Guards as the most common professional soldiers AND mercenaries.
"Not true, and video games are irrelevant for 5e."
You're ignoring 5e adventures as well. They have magic and monsters almost all the time. I don't know where you pull this off that DnD suddenly became low magic realm.

"Adventurers are not the only ones, but they're among the only ones. The reason to assume that is called "reading the books"."
In which book they state that only adventures are powerful?

"You're arguing the chances of an army vs a level 20 adventurer. Legendary monsters are in the same weight class, if not higher."
I weren't talking about legendary monsters. Normal monster alone is good enough to wipe your silly army.

"No they wouldn't. Yes, Dragonborn got their breath weapons, but once it's used up their mooks are just as tough as any humanoid mooks, and they're far less numerous than humans or dwarves."
They can single handedly wipe your whole army with breath weapon.

"So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat."
Moving the goal post. Previously you insisted that armies would have no magic users at all, therefore ancient formations would be still used. Now you're talking about level 20 wizards being rare. Which was never the case.

"I'm not claiming monsters and magic users are rare. I'm claiming *very powerful* monsters and magic users are rare."
my previous point. So again... Not single army would be based on ancient warfare formations when magic users are not rare. You don't need level 20 wizard to blow up army like that. Less than that is enough.

"As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber."
CR 6 caster is already same as PC level 9. They have fifth level spell slots. That is more than enough to handle your meteor swarm. Especially when you have a lot of these. And again, archmages aren't super rare. Basically every king has one as advisor and every school has one as master.

"Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort."
Fort is not same as army on march to war.




As was mentioned by someone else, it's better that they form a second rank of 16 with spears.

If they committed to engaging with Longbows they could dash to retreat over the featureless plain provided in the example and attack every other round pretty much indefinitely instead of allowing themselves to become engaged in melee.



Switching to the other side of the argument for a minute... the number of individuals that constitutes an "army" is highly dependent on where, when and who you're fighting. Cortes conquered the Aztec Empire with 500 men, for instance. :smalltongue:

As a Wizard working on the "Oh S**T an Army!" Scenario currently defined though I think we'd have to define what winning actually means. Do I absolutely have to run out in my bathrobe, boxers and bunny slippers to murder everyone in sight in order to win?

Personally I think not.

5e allows Wizards a lot of spell-casting flexibility, so even if I didn't intend to cast a particular spell I'm a lot more likely to have it prepared then I would have been in 3.5, Pathfinder or other systems.

Going off of my own play-style for Wizards past... and the assumption that the Army is preparing to move in and establish a siege with the goal of either taking over my city and killing me, or convincing the citizens to hand me over peacefully so I can be killed... and finally that they expect me to prepare to withstand a conventional siege...

I'd probably pop off a simulacrum, using Wish if necessary to keep them occupied and organize my defenses to withstand a siege. At that point I'd probably teleport on over to whatever Kingdom is now bereft of it's army and exploit the situation.

Change my appearance with Alter Self, start bemoaning and lamenting the idiotic actions of the local monarch, casting imprecations of divine intervention against their injustice. Use Mass Suggestion to really make it stick, then gather a really big crowd and gate in a pit fiend, just in case anyone was uncertain of the fact that their king is making god cry sad tears.
Teleport back home in time for a quick luncheon of cold meats and the finest cheeses.
True Polymorph my Simulacrum into a celestial or some other divine messenger and then send him out to tell the Army to GTFO. If they resist have him Smite the leader, then use teleport to send a few high ranking remainders back home to see what kind of destruction a Pit Fiend or Balor managed to wreak over the past couple hours.

Once they're convinced their actions have offended their gods... the Celestial Messenger can make it clear that they just need to bow to you, the mighty magical manipulator, who has been given the power of the Gods to undo the Balor... blah, blah, blah.

You've been scrying this of course, while communicating through Rary's Telepathic Bond with your Simulacrum, so the minute they agree you swoop in to save the day. Although the "avatar" of their god makes a big show of summoning you forth.

Then you banish the Balor, of course with the Celestial you making a big show of channeling their power through you.

Not only have you won, you did it in a manner that convinced the Mundalandians or whatever they're called that you're a divine prophet who speaks with the authority of their god, not just some guy with a wand.

As an added bonus your Simulacrum can't cast a whole lot of spells... but they're still a freaking Celestial, and they can go right ahead and affirm your earthly divinity by writing a new gospel or something...
500 men does still not constitute an actual army. In case of aztech they simply got defeated by superior technology and diseases.

[Tespri]

To break it down in simplest terms.

Classes that can win with ease.
Moon Druid
Because at level 20 they are not dieing unless you can cut through their WS HP and their normal class HP, and they will start in a wildshape form. If they are smart it will be an earth elemental.

Classes that can win with a little luck or strategy.
Any Bard, Warlock, Druid, Sorcerer (only if they took Wish as their 9th level spell), or Wizard that lives long enough to get off a spell.
Cleric but only the arcana domain ones.

This is because those classes can pick the best 9th level spells.

Classes that could not win:
All non-full casters and Clerics that are not Arcana Domain.
Why do you keep bringing druid to this? It's no brainer that druids are better than wizards if we take wish away. Also you wouldn't be smart if you wild shape to earth elemental. You will just get feebleminded out of existence. Or disintegrated.
Best form is to be harmless and stealthy animal that people don't pay attention to. Since druids can subtle cast as level 20, even in their forms.

I already mentioned before that druid is the best option. No idea why you brought it up again.

[Unoriginal]

They can single handedly wipe your whole army with breath weapon.

No they can't.

Show the calculations, if you can prove it.

Also, define what you mean by "single handedly", because it'd wager it takes more than one of them.



"So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat."
Moving the goal post. Previously you insisted that armies would have no magic users at all, therefore ancient formations would be still used.

No, not at all. I've said in several instances that armies will have magic users.




Now you're talking about level 20 wizards being rare. Which was never the case.


Yes it was. It has always been the case. In every single published campaign and in every editions.




"As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber."
CR 6 caster is already same as PC level 9. They have fifth level spell slots. That is more than enough to handle your meteor swarm. Especially when you have a lot of these.

Actually, no. Meteor Swarm can't be Counterspelled from so far away, and there is no spell lower than the 8th level that can protect large armies against that kind of thing.


And again, archmages aren't super rare. Basically every king has one as advisor and every school has one as master.

Aahaha whoa.

No, not at all. Neither in how the default 5e world is presented, nor in Eberron, nor in Grewhawk, nor in Forgotten Realms.

[QUOTE=Tespri;22669224]
"Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort."
Fort is not same as army on march to war.

Maybe try to not accuse people to move the goalposts when you blatantly do it yourself.

You have SEVERAL exemples from a published adventures (that you previously cited as reliable knowledge source) that show that the guard NPC statblock is used to represent the majority of professional soldiers, including ones you can hire as mercenaries.

[Tanarii]

Any cleric has Divine Intervention with 100% success chance. "Remove enemy army" is well within the capabilities of most deities.
But not within the power level the PHB recommends for the DM to use: "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate." (PHB p59)

[JackPhoenix]

But not within the power level the PHB recommends for the DM to use: "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate." (PHB p59)

That's great... so show me what cleric spell would help the cleric to deal with an army. None? Well, I guess the god will have to find a different way to help his favorite servant.... "would be appropriate" isn't the same as "is the only possibility"

Edit: Actually, you know what? One cleric spell is sufficient to deal with an army. The deity uses Gate to drop a horde of celestial superbeings (invisible or not) to deal with the enemy. Suck it, BMX Bandit!

[Dudewithknives]

Why do you keep bringing druid to this? It's no brainer that druids are better than wizards if we take wish away. Also you wouldn't be smart if you wild shape to earth elemental. You will just get feebleminded out of existence. Or disintegrated.
Best form is to be harmless and stealthy animal that people don't pay attention to. Since druids can subtle cast as level 20, even in their forms.

I already mentioned before that druid is the best option. No idea why you brought it up again.

I brought it up again because I was summarizing, that's why I use the first sentence of Lets break this down in simplest terms. also what does feeble-mind have to do with anything this is a fight against the 500 1/2 challenge rating hobgoblins. Even then I would still have the saves and mental stats of a druid, not that int will be a high one. Also I never said anything about taking away wish either I'm not sure where you're getting some of these ideas

[Renduaz]

Meteor Swarm is the wizard's best bet, but yes, if they're within the range of the army they will lose. Or flee.

They might also escape if they have a setup to prevent dying for good here.


Also, no, a lvl 20 wizard isn't likely to win in a duel. If you're talking about PvP, the winner is almost always the one who wins the initiative. If you're talking about vs 1 monster, well, many monsters can match a lvl 20 caster.

Highly depends on the distance between the contestants. Against any non-spellcasting class, if the Wizard is allowed to have so much as a single turn, he wins. Time Stop if necessary, do whatever he needs to do to get in range, and cast a save-or-suck, or even literally just "suck" with something like Forcecage which maritals will be powerless against and then the Wizard just leisurely prepares his summons and guaranteed victory for an hour.

In a spellcaster duel, that statement is correct. Against martials, it isn't. If they attack the Wizard but didn't kill him on the very first turn, they're gonna lose in the next.

[SociopathFriend]

Over time and by destroying moral- not walking onto a bare field with a couple thousand archers and screaming, "DO IT!" at them.

The Wizard makes a very fearsome illusion, perhaps with some special effects and some summoned beasts (Castlevania anime where Dracula comes back after a year for example) at the camp to deter the army and promise them that they will pay dearly if they want to fight you. As a Wizard you surely will be able to figure it out long before they arrive on your doorstep. Teleport into the King's bedchamber and threaten that his army will never catch you. Worst-case scenario is they mess up your Wizard's tower- then you'll be angry, hiding, and all-too-willing to mess up him and his family line for as long as you live. If you're feeling particularly mean, feel free to place a curse on his precious daughter to show you mean business.

If they keep coming, make with the blasting magic. Soldiers today break ranks sometimes when fighting an enemy that, for our intents and purposes, is entirely his equal; or close to it. Now imagine fighting an enemy that can waste you and 50 other guys with a click of his fingers and some muttered words when you're armed with a stick. Ask yourself- isn't your nice bed looking really good right about now? Ronald was alive 6 seconds ago- now he and everyone within 20 feet of him is ash in the wind (fireball). Illyoa was kinda attractive and you thought about courting her- now her and everyone within 60 feet of her is an ice statue (freezing sphere). Percival swore he'd be safe since he was with the archer contingent and he had his lucky arrow- now his trusty arrow, bow, and remains are in one of four massive craters that came from falling stars (meteor swarm).

You still haven't even seen the guy, you just hear some muttered words in the wind and devastation strikes (Greater Invisibility). Sir Not-Lethal actually tried hitting him in the head with his sword the one time he could be seen- it bounced off of him to barely leave a mark. (Shield or maybe Stoneskin, or just more illusions)

Last night you heard the general was murdered in his sleep- all anyone heard was a scream and they found him dead- not a mark on him (Dream). The sentries didn't see a thing. Big Bill went to take a leak and then ran back into camp with an iron crown and started cutting down everyone in sight. (Crown of Madness)


What sane man would challenge power like that on the words of his commander saying, "We can take him?" Soldiers don't know the Wizard has limited spell slots or the limitations we do.

-

The OP seemed to imply it was 1 vs thousands of men with no magic- totally doable depending on campaign. You don't have to kill thousands of men to defeat thousands of men.

[Unoriginal]

I would argue people would know about the limited number of spells cast per day. It's common knowledge casters can't use all their powers all day.


Now, they have no way of knowing how much *this particular caster* has.

[RickAllison]

I would argue people would know about the limited number of spells cast per day. It's common knowledge casters can't use all their powers all day.


Now, they have no way of knowing how much *this particular caster* has.

Of course, the reality might be even more depressing. "Yeah, he has limited spell slots. Well, no, we can't just take him on when they are gone, he could teleport anywhere in the world when he is running low. Or off the world. Heck, he could teleport into our city, disguise himself with the slots that are too weak to fight us, and have dinner with your wife, then be back here in the morning to harass us, good as new."

[Tanarii]

Of course, the reality might be even more depressing. "Yeah, he has limited spell slots. Well, no, we can't just take him on when they are gone, he could teleport anywhere in the world when he is running low. Or off the world. Heck, he could teleport into our city, disguise himself with the slots that are too weak to fight us, and have dinner with your wife, then be back here in the morning to harass us, good as new."
By which time we've razed his tower.

Remember, the wizard had effectively ran out of his tower in his chonies with whatever spells he had prepared that morning, when he glanced out the window and saw an army approaching, intent on razing it, the nearby town that supported him, salting their fields, etc.

Precise details don't matter, but the OP scenario proposed was "minimal prep time". The wizard doesn't have time to choose a specific load out of spells, it's whatever he has prepared for a "default day". If he runs away, the army achieve their objective. There is no time for a harassment campaign.

Edit: on the other hand, surviving the next few years with a lvl 20 wizard bent on revenge is going to be unlikely. All you can do is hope he'll take it out on whomever gave the orders, not you, a lowly peon. :smallamused:

[Temperjoke]

By which time we've razed his tower.

Remember, the wizard had effectively ran out of his tower in his chonies with whatever spells he had prepared that morning, when he glanced out the window and saw an army approaching, intent on razing it, the nearby town that supported him, salting their fields, etc.

Precise details don't matter, but the OP scenario proposed was "minimal prep time". The wizard doesn't have time to choose a specific load out of spells, it's whatever he has prepared for a "default day". If he runs away, the army achieve their objective. There is no time for a harassment campaign.

Edit: on the other hand, surviving the next few years with a lvl 20 wizard bent on revenge is going to be unlikely. All you can do is hope he'll take it out on whomever gave the orders, not you, a lowly peon. :smallamused:

In fairness, as a level 20 wizard, I would expect that my tower/castle/lair would be able to defend itself while I was away. That doesn't mean I necessarily want an army hammering my defenses, I'd rather not have to repeat my investment, but I should be able to spend a day on petty revenge against the kingdom supporting the army and expect it'd be there still.

[Tanarii]

In fairness, as a level 20 wizard, I would expect that my tower/castle/lair would be able to defend itself while I was away. That doesn't mean I necessarily want an army hammering my defenses, I'd rather not have to repeat my investment, but I should be able to spend a day on petty revenge against the kingdom supporting the army and expect it'd be there still.In even more fairness, expecting a level 20 Wizard to be blindsided to an approaching army to the point they're running out the tower in their chonies isn't very reasonable.

"Minimal prep time" for a level 20 wizard might quite possibly be before the army starts being mustered. :smallamused:

[PhoenixPhyre]

In even more fairness, expecting a level 20 Wizard to be blindsided to an approaching army to the point they're running out the tower in their chonies isn't very reasonable.

"Minimal prep time" for a level 20 wizard might quite possibly be before the army starts being mustered. :smallamused:

Why is high INT equated with paranoia and thus with omniscience? Especially in this edition, wizards don't get access to the best unfocused divination spells. They basically have to know about the existence of a problem before they can discover more information. The only "general info" spell they really get is contact other planes, which has serious side effects and is unreliable at best.


5th-level divination (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: 1 minute

You mentally contact a demigod, the spirit of a long-dead sage, or some other mysterious entity from another plane. Contacting this extraplanar intelligence can strain or even break your mind. When you cast this spell, make a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw. On a failure, you take 6d6 psychic damage and are insane until you finish a long rest. While insane, you can’t take actions, can’t understand what other creatures say, can’t read, and speak only in gibberish. A greater restoration spell cast on you ends this effect.

On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.

with a +11 to INT saves, you're looking at only a 15% chance of going insane for a day so there's that. You still only get 5 questions, answered with one-word answers (where "dunno" is a valid answer) over the course of one minute. You're not going to be able to get all that much information out of that, unless you cast it multiple times in sequence. You're playing 20 questions where the answerer may not even know the answer. Remember that gods (and this goes double for demigods, dead sages, or other mysterious entities) are not omniscient. Most have very narrow areas of focus. If you ask "are there any threats to me," the answer might be "yes" (there are always threats to everyone), "maybe", or "unclear."

All the other long-range divinations you get are things like scrying (which requires a specific, named place or creature) which aren't so good for open-ended threat detection. Clerics are much better at the generalized divination in this edition; wizards are better at focused divination.

[Tanarii]

Why is high INT equated with paranoia and thus with omniscience?Who,said anything about high Int?

High, God-like even, levels is why I equate any Tier 4 adventurer with paranoia. And access to effective divinations is why a Wizard in particular be particularly well informed.


Especially in this edition, wizards don't get access to the best unfocused divination spells. They basically have to know about the existence of a problem before they can discover more information. The only "general info" spell they really get is contact other planes, which has serious side effects and is unreliable at best.Also Scrying.

And yes, I'm assuming they know about the existence of the problem. That was my point. If you're a level 20 adventurer and you don't know about these kinds of problems, how did you get to that level? Some omniscient over-deity carefully holding your hands and making sure you only ever faced possible-to-beat opponents in a carefully scripted, even plot-like, series of adventuring arcs? Talk about paranoid fantasies.

[smcmike]

And yes, I'm assuming they know about the existence of the problem. That was my point. If you're a level 20 adventurer and you don't know about these kinds of problems, how did you get to that level? Some omniscient over-deity carefully holding your hands and making sure you only ever faced possible-to-beat opponents in a carefully scripted, even plot-like, series of adventuring arcs? Talk about paranoid fantasies.

In this case, the wizard popped into existence suddenly, with an army advancing, almost as if he were some sort of hypothetical case in an argument between bored fantasists. After defeating the army, perhaps he will look into it.

[Tanarii]

In this case, the wizard popped into existence suddenly, with an army advancing, almost as if he were some sort of hypothetical case in an argument between bored fantasists. After defeating the army, perhaps he will look into it.Indeed. But part of exploring a hypothetical is exploring the likelihood of it every occurring.

[smcmike]

Indeed. But part of exploring a hypothetical is exploring the likelihood of it every occurring.

In that case, let’s shut this board down. Wizards aren’t real.

[Tanarii]

In that case, let’s shut this board down. Wizards aren’t real.
/roll-eyes

[PhoenixPhyre]

Who,said anything about high Int?

High, God-like even, levels is why I equate any Tier 4 adventurer with paranoia. And access to effective divinations is why a Wizard in particular be particularly well informed.

Also Scrying.

And yes, I'm assuming they know about the existence of the problem. That was my point. If you're a level 20 adventurer and you don't know about these kinds of problems, how did you get to that level?

High INT is implied by being a level 20 wizard.

But my point was that they don't have access to effective divinations that can let them know about arbitrary threats. Scrying requires a particular creature as a target per casting. It's not something where you can simply run it across the country-side, watching for hitherto-unknown armies gathering. Even if you target the kings of all the local countries (that could gather armies), they get a save (at -2 if you can draw a picture of them). That doesn't protect against advisors that can cast see invisibility (and thus see the sensor). Or against lower-ranking threats (a duke can raise an army, and you don't have enough 5th level slots to scry every local noble even every few days). You can target a location instead, but then it doesn't move and you have to have seen the target location before.

It also only lasts 10 minutes per casting, and is a 5th level spell. This is great for spying on a known threat, but crap for discovering threats.

How did they survive until now? By being proactive and being the ones on the offensive (and on the move). Adventurers are seeking out nascent threats, not reacting to newly-brewing threats. And by pitting the big threats against each other. And by not letting enemies live to rebuild. Scorched earth tactics against enemies, munificence toward allies. Not by being paranoid and divining threats everywhere. That's highly prone to failure even if you're a cleric (who are much better at that sort of thing).

Coming from zero and growing fast (a typical D&D campaign) also makes a big difference in survival--the risky part is before you're a mover-and-shaker, before you've established a place in the local social structure. But there you're not a threat to the big guys, so even divinations wouldn't show you effectively. You're insignificant when you're easily crushable (and so crushed only by accident); by the time the sclerotic power structures can respond in overwhelming force once you're a visible threat, you're already quite powerful.

[RickAllison]

That whole idea of having to defend a tower, and a town? None of that is in the OP. None of those conditions exist for the hypothetical scenario, and honestly don't make sense. A high-level wizard doesn't need a town supporting him because he can teleport to any city to do so when needed. His tower can be on different Demiplanes only he knows the glyphs to. The OP scenario is that the wizard is marched upon by an army, cut off from any preparations. He literally CAN'T be in his tower, because that is reasonably heavily warded. And a town around it? He would have a lot more than a minute to prep.

Insisting arbitrary conditions that make no sense is just shifting the goalposts. The thread is to establish whether a wizard can defeat an army, not whether he can defend a town from invasion singlehandedly and without prep time.

[smcmike]

That whole idea of having to defend a tower, and a town? None of that is in the OP. None of those conditions exist for the hypothetical scenario, and honestly don't make sense. A high-level wizard doesn't need a town supporting him because he can teleport to any city to do so when needed. His tower can be on different Demiplanes only he knows the glyphs to. The OP scenario is that the wizard is marched upon by an army, cut off from any preparations. He literally CAN'T be in his tower, because that is reasonably heavily warded. And a town around it? He would have a lot more than a minute to prep.

Insisting arbitrary conditions that make no sense is just shifting the goalposts. The thread is to establish whether a wizard can defeat an army, not whether he can defend a town from invasion singlehandedly and without prep time.

The town was added in to give the Wizard some reason to fight, instead of just ignoring the army. It doesn’t have to be a town, but the point is that the army needs to be defeated, not evaded, and that the defeat must be done quickly - it doesn’t count if you teleport to the other side of the word, raise your own army, and teleport back.

[Sigreid]

I think what's missing from most of this thread is that to defeat an army you don't have to kill it. You have to make it too costly or impossible to continue. Just a few options are:

Slaughtering small groups one at a time my hititng their scouts and skirmishers.
Raiding their camps to destroy their supplies.
Poisoning their supplies.
Luring them into an area where they can't bring their full force to bare and murdering them that way.
Murdering their leadership.
Using the weather against them (control weather)
Booby traps
etc.



Any 20th level character that doesn't think they have to do it in one go, and isn't an idiot can do it with the tools they have. Admittedly, some have an easier time than others such as a wizard who from a safe distance summons fire elementals to go around the main body of the army and destroy their wagons, tents, food supplies, etc. Or a super stealth rogue who sneaks in and destroys/poisons the same things. Get rid of their supplies and support and any army is done.

[SociopathFriend]

But my point was that they don't have access to effective divinations that can let them know about arbitrary threats. Scrying requires a particular creature as a target per casting. It's not something where you can simply run it across the country-side, watching for hitherto-unknown armies gathering. Even if you target the kings of all the local countries (that could gather armies), they get a save (at -2 if you can draw a picture of them). That doesn't protect against advisors that can cast see invisibility (and thus see the sensor). Or against lower-ranking threats (a duke can raise an army, and you don't have enough 5th level slots to scry every local noble even every few days). You can target a location instead, but then it doesn't move and you have to have seen the target location before.

Telescope. Pretty useful device when you have a tall place to watch from- or just the naked eye. I forget the exact formula but you only need to be a few stories up to increase the distance you can see by miles. Even standing 30 feet from the ground allows you to see almost 7 miles- and an army is hard to miss. Irrelevant for the scenario apparently but you don't need magic to know something bad is coming. Dunno how this army was raised and marched some distance on this Wizard without said mage having no clue he'd angered someone to such a state but moving past that-

RAW there is no such thing as morale rules AFAIK- so the army is hardened numbers marching forwards to kill said Wizard no matter what the cost. Sounds a wee bit unrealistic but rolling with it. The Wizard is also severely limited in options and isn't allowed to reposition, rethink, or basically do anything other than respond with raw aggression? Sounds a wee bit more unrealistic but, again, rolling with it. RAW every soldier has a longbow and a bunch of other weapons (instead of the normal contingent of archers, some cavalry, some spearmen, etc.) with an effective range of 600 feet. Most of the Wizard's spells do not have this range. Mechanically the Wizard is boned.

If you severely limit one side and throw extreme odds at them, yes, you'll defeat them. Wizards aren't feared because they can smash armies to the ground. Wizards are feared because they have eldritch powers the normal man, or a hundred normal men, cannot do anything about; not because they're a Dragonball character that can blast armies off the face of the Earth.

[SharkForce]

High INT is implied by being a level 20 wizard.

But my point was that they don't have access to effective divinations that can let them know about arbitrary threats. Scrying requires a particular creature as a target per casting. It's not something where you can simply run it across the country-side, watching for hitherto-unknown armies gathering. Even if you target the kings of all the local countries (that could gather armies), they get a save (at -2 if you can draw a picture of them). That doesn't protect against advisors that can cast see invisibility (and thus see the sensor). Or against lower-ranking threats (a duke can raise an army, and you don't have enough 5th level slots to scry every local noble even every few days). You can target a location instead, but then it doesn't move and you have to have seen the target location before.

It also only lasts 10 minutes per casting, and is a 5th level spell. This is great for spying on a known threat, but crap for discovering threats.

How did they survive until now? By being proactive and being the ones on the offensive (and on the move). Adventurers are seeking out nascent threats, not reacting to newly-brewing threats. And by pitting the big threats against each other. And by not letting enemies live to rebuild. Scorched earth tactics against enemies, munificence toward allies. Not by being paranoid and divining threats everywhere. That's highly prone to failure even if you're a cleric (who are much better at that sort of thing).

Coming from zero and growing fast (a typical D&D campaign) also makes a big difference in survival--the risky part is before you're a mover-and-shaker, before you've established a place in the local social structure. But there you're not a threat to the big guys, so even divinations wouldn't show you effectively. You're insignificant when you're easily crushable (and so crushed only by accident); by the time the sclerotic power structures can respond in overwhelming force once you're a visible threat, you're already quite powerful.

the wizard has wish, which means access to any divination spell from any spell list of level 8 or lower if they really want. though a fun one can be using legend lore on yourself; as a level 20 wizard, you are very likely a legendary individual, and the more you know about the subject, the more precise and detailed the information can be, and it can include current information. like "there is currently an army on its way from <place> to attack <wizard's name>, and just passed <location>", for example.

the wizard also has access to the ability to summon extraplanar beings and bind them to long-term service.

and the ability to hire scouts and spies, just like anyone else could (and better than normal ability to stay in touch with them). while that may not reveal every single threat (for example, a lone assassin hired secretly might be hard to spot), an army is going to be quite obvious, both when it is forming and when it is marching.

and the ability to create living servants of fairly high power, which can continue to voluntarily serve indefinitely if treated well.

and the ability to create strongholds of various varieties protected by powerful defensive magic like the guards and wards spell.

and can have geased minions.

and can have up to 12 creatures serving for up to a year courtesy of mass suggestion, per casting of mass suggestion.

and can have glyphs of warding, and/or symbol spells in place in their home for general-purpose defense.


but seriously, guards and wards alone could do a lot of work... create 5 choke points, protect them with 5 guards and wards spells suggesting that the subject get as far away as possible, and at a probable DC of 19+ only one in ten soldiers will pass... which means only 1/10 of 1/10 of 1/10 of 1/10 of 1/10 will get through... for every 10,000 soldiers the enemy brings, you'll have to face approximately one. note that this does not expend your level 9 slot, leaving you free to use it as you please to prepare for when the army tries again (though you'll also have your spell slots back, it having taken 8 hours for the soldiers to leave thanks to the suggestion spell, and then 8 hours more to return thanks to the suggestion spell, at which point they'll need to rest and you can refresh your wards. you might even have longer; the suggestion to get as far away as possible may cause the soldiers to force march away, leading to levels of exhaustion and other problems).

you could also give up one of the guards and wards spells to create a maze from hell thanks to mirage arcane. which, of course, you will then supplement with guards and wards spells (include as many intersections as possible to maximize the confusion). maybe a few other "fun" tricks, like transmute rock in a portion of the maze that has mordenkainen's hound in it (or do the same with stairs), or a similar section with transmute rock or plant growth to slow movement to a crawl combined with some sort of trap (mirage arcane allows structures and natural phenomena, there's no particular reason to presume that simple pit traps or quicksand are not options) or ambush (because there's no particularly compelling reason a wizard couldn't have half a dozen invisible stalkers bound at all times at zero cost thanks to wish).

[Tanarii]

RAW there is no such thing as morale rules AFAIK- so the army is hardened numbers marching forwards to kill said Wizard no matter what the cost. Sounds a wee bit unrealistic but rolling with it.

DMG page 273. It's an optional rule at the DMs discretion.

And even if the DM doesn't use the optional rule, that doesn't mean that she can't adjudicate when enemies break based on her own judgement.

[Vaz]

Its a good job we have mass combat ua... Ah, wait. Probs best not to do so...