Why are driders considered punishment?

[martixy]

We know that in lore, a drow getting turned into a drider is considered divine punishment from Lolth for failing her in some manner.

Except I fail to see the logic in this - driders are physically and mentally stronger(all ability scores are at least +4) and have innate spellcasting (of any type they choose!)

Even from a lore standpoint - Lolth is the Spider queen. It doesn't make much sense to consider being turned into a living personification of your patron deity a punishment.

Am I missing something here? Is there some reason for this weird attitude? Is it some iffy word of god (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod)?

[Kish]

Think of your favorite animal. Are you a cat person? Me too. Maybe you love dogs? Dogs are good. Elephants? Elephants are cool. Maybe a shark? Anyway. Your very favorite nonhuman animal.

Now, imagine that you'd been forcibly transformed into a human upper body, starting at the waist, mounted to the neck of a cat or dog or whatever. Your genitals are, explicitly, gone (you don't have those of a cat or dog or whatever animal you picked, even if you would consider that a good trade). Everyone treats you like a freak.

Even if you're unambiguously stronger, would you really consider that a good tradeoff? No matter how much you adore the animal type you picked, would you find this an improvement?

[TheIronGolem]

Are the downsides of having a spider for a butt really not obvious?

[Lapak]

We know that in lore, a drow getting turned into a drider is considered divine punishment from Lolth for failing her in some manner.

Except I fail to see the logic in this - driders are physically and mentally stronger(all ability scores are at least +4) and have innate spellcasting (of any type they choose!)

Even from a lore standpoint - Lolth is the Spider queen. It doesn't make much sense to consider being turned into a living personification of your patron deity a punishment.

Am I missing something here? Is there some reason for this weird attitude? Is it some iffy word of god (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod)?It's worth noting that in earlier editions driders were not mentally stronger; they retained their spellcasting but weren't boosted mentally in any way and in some presentations were in fact reduced to a more savage animal-cunning with enough intelligence to spellcast rather than super-drow. (And their spellcasting was explicitly a carry-over from whatever they were before being transformed, not a 'pick-your-casting' buffet.)

It's primarily a punishment because it is an unmistakable, un-reversible sign of Lloth's disfavor, so the other driders make it a punishment. They're treated as failures, driven out of drow society, reduced to wandering in the Underdark to find what prey they can. It's probably seen not so much as 'Lloth turns you into a hideous spider-beast because she loves spiders' as it is 'Lloth's powers and potency revolves around spiders, so if she's going to turn you into a hideous monster it's going to be a spider-themed one.'

[Psyren]

It might not actually have been a punishment or at least not purely one. Rather it could be seen as an example of Lolth's (rather questionable form of) "mercy", as disfiguring a weaker drow in this way does, as you pointed out, powers it up considerably and thus allows them to be of use to her cutthroat CE society. But being an evil goddess of course, she's not going to hold her children by the hand and teach them tolerance and acceptance - no, any Driders who want that treatment have to prove their worth through cunning or violence.

And it appears that several have done so. DotU 41:



Driders

The ultimate symbols of Lolth's whim, these hybrid horrors long shared a mutual loathing with their drow relatives. The drow viewed them as worthless beings, failures in the eyes of Lolth and reminders of the drow's own fallibility. The driders, in turn, despised those who drove them from their former homes, stripping them of any possibility of advancement in the society from which they came. The best a drider could hope for, if it was unfortunate enough to encounter the drow after its transformation, was a quick death. More often, enslavement or torture was the result.

In recent years, however, this attitude has begun to shift, particularly within the current generation of up-and-coming drow. Breaking free of the shackles of tradition, and seeking advantages their forebears would never consider, these drow have taken stock of drider abilities. Their transformation might have been a punishment from Lolth, but it also grants them substantial physical and mystical power. Is it possible that while Lolth was castigating an individual, she was also granting a favor to the community as a whole? That a drow who proved too weak on his own could be a workable tool for other drow strong enough to seize and wield it?

[Necroticplague]

Because they’re hideous abominations who’s failures are unmistakably evident. Made self-perpetuating by how the Drow treat drider like crap, so drider transformation is usually cuts off one from society, essentially turning the transformation into an exile. Plus, drow have a major racial self-import to a ridiculous degree, so any modification to their form like this would be seen as a major punishment. At best, they find themselves reduced to second-class citizens who are seen as highly useful tools.

Also, when you take ECL into account, drider are actually considerably weaker than equivalently experienced drow.

[Crake]

It's worth noting that in earlier editions driders were not mentally stronger; they retained their spellcasting but weren't boosted mentally in any way and in some presentations were in fact reduced to a more savage animal-cunning with enough intelligence to spellcast rather than super-drow. (And their spellcasting was explicitly a carry-over from whatever they were before being transformed, not a 'pick-your-casting' buffet.)

This is actually the representative intention of the race, the reason they have 6th level casting is because lolth typically gives her tests at level 6, and failure results in becoming a drider, so a 6th level cleric drow would fail the test, and become a drider with 6th level cleric casting.

Honestly though, I far prefer the drider template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a) which can be easily reverse engineered anyway, just remove the drow stats from the drider ones, and boom, drider template. It makes far more sense, because after all, not every drow has spellcasting, some are rogues, others are fighters or rangers.

As to why a drider becomes stronger, drow of the underdark proposes that lolth empowers them (while also reducing their social status to the bottom tier as punishment) to allow them to be at least somewhat useful to the drow society in some way.

Edit: Also, this is a fun little tidbit from the drider template :smalltongue: Showing that wizards fully understood the torture that was multiclass xp penalties


A drider's favored class is sorcerer, regardless of the base creature's classes. If this change in favored class causes a character to take experience penalties, then the driders appreciate the torture of a ruined life that much more.

[Psyren]

Also, when you take ECL into account, drider are actually considerably weaker than equivalently experienced drow.

In game terms, yes, it's far easier for a humanoid with no RHD or LA to climb the ranks of their class and achieve power. In-universe though this is very rare, and so becoming a monster and instantly getting a pile of both is a much faster way of advancing. This is particularly true for elves and drow, who spend decades if not centuries between levels unless they are the primary heroes (or villains) in some overarching narrative.

[jesterjeff]

The drow are racists as well.
They Hate anything not of true drow form. Yes, driders are half drow/half spider and spiders are awesome, but they are Half drow.

[Lapak]

This is actually the representative intention of the race, the reason they have 6th level casting is because lolth typically gives her tests at level 6, and failure results in becoming a drider, so a 6th level cleric drow would fail the test, and become a drider with 6th level cleric casting.Fun tidbit: 2e driders with cleric casting are always 6th level casters; driders with magic-user casting can be 7th, 8th, or even 9th level casters.

[Captain Kablam]

Honestly, I'm with you on this, it's like the curse from the Mummy (1999). "Here is your punishment, immortality and super powers! Raargh!"

TVTROPES refers to this as "Cursed with Awesome" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CursedWithAwesome) and even call out the Drow/Drider thing.

Now if their intellect and ability to grow were to become inhibited, then yeah I can see this being a problem for the ever ambitious drow, but to be remade to more closely resemble what you worship as a near perfect being, doesn't make much sense no. The only downside I can see is that it's an irreversible physical alteration, but not much beyond that.

[Zanos]

Drider isn't a template. When you are transformed into a drider, it's pretty fair to assume that any part of you that could be considered to be "you" is destroyed.

[elonin]

Fun tidbit: 2e driders with cleric casting are always 6th level casters; driders with magic-user casting can be 7th, 8th, or even 9th level casters.

Can't remember the details but in 2e there were level limits on demihumans. if, for example drow magic users were capped at 6th level casting and driders then got the ability to advance to 9th level casting that would certainly be more powerful

[Lapak]

Can't remember the details but in 2e there were level limits on demihumans. if, for example drow magic users were capped at 6th level casting and driders then got the ability to advance to 9th level casting that would certainly be more powerfulLooks like not, for several reasons. (Pulled out my Monstrous Manual.) And I did remember wrongly about the levels. Driders always fight as 7 hit die creatures (which implies that they never advance in power.) With regards to spellcasting:

Driders are able to cast all spells a normal drow can use once per day. They also retain any magical or clerical skills they had before transformation. A majority of driders (60%) were priests of 6th or 7th level before they were changed, all other driders were mages of 6th, 7th, or 8th level.

[thoroughlyS]

Drow society is predicated on tearing others down to make yourself look good. As soon as you hit 6th level, the literal god of your people gives you a test. If you fail, she basically says "you're not good enough for me", and magics you into a horrible monster so that you can be "useful". All the other drow instantly know that whatever you had to offer beforehand wasn't up to par. Those below you seize the advancement opportunity by shunning you. Those above you are finally proven "right" in thinking that they were better than you.

Honestly, it sounds like a fate worse than death.

[Nifft]

Honestly, it sounds like a fate worse than death.

Driders should just go build their own society.

With blackjack!

And hooked horrors!

[Bronk]

Judging from the novels, the transformation is also super torturous.

[Psyren]

Drider isn't a template. When you are transformed into a drider, it's pretty fair to assume that any part of you that could be considered to be "you" is destroyed.

They clearly remember who they were so I'm not sure this is true. You lose all your status though, which seems to be a big part of Drow identity.


Drow society is predicated on tearing others down to make yourself look good. As soon as you hit 6th level, the literal god of your people gives you a test. If you fail, she basically says "you're not good enough for me", and magics you into a horrible monster so that you can be "useful". All the other drow instantly know that whatever you had to offer beforehand wasn't up to par. Those below you seize the advancement opportunity by shunning you. Those above you are finally proven "right" in thinking that they were better than you.

Honestly, it sounds like a fate worse than death.

That's exactly how it was. But the DotU passage suggests that younger Drow are wising up to the fact that alienating powerful resources that way is Stupid Evil.


Driders should just go build their own society.

With blackjack!

And hooked horrors!

In fact, forget the blackjack!

[Darth Ultron]

Because it turns the drow into a monster.

Sure, from a ''game point'' of view becoming a monster with abilities and such is ''way cool''.

But if you can step away from the roll playing, you might see the bigger picture of role playing: would you want to live your life as a monstrous half animal?

[Zaq]

I agree with the whole “you’re instantly shunned from society and are turned into a monster as a permanent and visible mark of failure” thing, but I will admit that I always found it weird that Lolth’s punishment involves making you look more like her, given that one of Lolth’s forms has canonically always been, y’know, a drider-shaped drow top and spider bottom. I get the argument about everything Lolth comes into proximity with turning spidery, but still.

[lightningcat]

Drow society is built on both personal status and family status.
No matter how useless you are, as long as your family is important, then you are important. Becoming a drider also gets you exiled from your family. So you are turned into a monster, kicked out of your family, and lose the chance to create a new bloodline, all of which prove how worthless you are. The psycological torture is a nasty addition to the physical torture of the mutation. Then you are forced out into the wild, which adds in effective solitary confinement and survival horror situations.
Even after the drider is recaptured, they are fairly effectively broken and ready for retraining, with only the bare minimum of niceness. Violent training animals and slaves is NOT a nice practice, but fits in perfectly with the drow mind set.

[Nifft]

As an aside, I once made a Drow-but-totally-not-Drow society where Driders were those most favored, the few who were chosen & specially empowered by their ruthless Demon-Goddess ("Totally-Not-Lolth").

Now I feel like I was a little bit ahead of the curve. :biggrin:

[martixy]

Also, when you take ECL into account, drider are actually considerably weaker than equivalently experienced drow.
I'm with Psyren on this.


Because it turns the drow into a monster.

Sure, from a ''game point'' of view becoming a monster with abilities and such is ''way cool''.

But if you can step away from the roll playing, you might see the bigger picture of role playing: would you want to live your life as a monstrous half animal?

Yes, yes I would. One transformation please...


Drow society is built on both personal status and family status.
No matter how useless you are, as long as your family is important, then you are important. Becoming a drider also gets you exiled from your family. So you are turned into a monster, kicked out of your family, and lose the chance to create a new bloodline, all of which prove how worthless you are. The psycological torture is a nasty addition to the physical torture of the mutation. Then you are forced out into the wild, which adds in effective solitary confinement and survival horror situations.
Even after the drider is recaptured, they are fairly effectively broken and ready for retraining, with only the bare minimum of niceness. Violent training animals and slaves is NOT a nice practice, but fits in perfectly with the drow mind set.

That makes more sense. I'd originally made my world's driders how Nifft said - them being the favoured ones, but now it seems more interesting painting them as a society in transition between these values.

Also, drider IS a template - as Crake noted.

And I spent another few hours on TvTropes. Thanks, Captain.

[Blue Jay]

Because it turns the drow into a monster.

According to the Monster Manual, drow are already monsters. :smalltongue:


Sure, from a ''game point'' of view becoming a monster with abilities and such is ''way cool''.

But if you can step away from the roll playing, you might see the bigger picture of role playing: would you want to live your life as a monstrous half animal?

...and if you're really looking for the immersive experience in your roleplay, projecting your own arachnophobia onto people from a spider-worshiping culture is probably not the way to do it.

[Necroticplague]

That makes more sense. I'd originally made my world's driders how Nifft said - them being the favoured ones, but now it seems more interesting painting them as a society in transition between these values.
IIRC, 4e went wholly in that direction. Being a drider is a power increase and it makes one look more like their god, so it's seen as a sign of great favor from Lolth.

[Luccan]

I always thought it was more that Drow were kind of scared of spiders. Lolth may be their god, but she is terrifying. So anybody that she's mad at and turns into a Drider is double a thing you need to stay away from.

[Psyren]

According to the Monster Manual, drow are already monsters. :smalltongue:

By that metric, so are elves, so... :smalltongue:


IIRC, 4e went wholly in that direction. Being a drider is a power increase and it makes one look more like their god, so it's seen as a sign of great favor from Lolth.

Sounds like those more progressive Drow won out between editions.

[Zanos]

progressive Drow
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/897/718/c5f.gif

[Psyren]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/897/718/c5f.gif

I agree it sounds like an oxymoron, but did you read the Drow of the Underdark passage I quoted?

[martixy]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/897/718/c5f.gif

Progress towards universal world domination is still progress. :smallbiggrin:

[Zanos]

I agree it sounds like an oxymoron, but did you read the Drow of the Underdark passage I quoted?
Yeah, I'm just having a chuckle because it sounds so silly.

[DeltaEmil]

Lolth doesn't consider her own drider form to be a blessing. She loathes it, because it's an eternal reminder that Correllon Larethian cast her down, turned her into a spider, and then banished her to the Abyss. It took her centuries to regain enough power that she could manifest an elven head on her spider body again. Then a few more centuries until she regained enough power for the upper torso of a normal female drow.
And again several centuries until she was fully drow-bodied again.

[jmax]

Judging from the novels, the transformation is also super torturous.

It's this, but it's also more than this. As I recall from the R. A. Salvatore books, not only is the physical transformation incredibly tortuous, but so is the existence afterward - a ceaseless fog of rage and pain making it difficult to focus one's thoughts on anything other than violence and obedience. There were a few named driders that had regained enough sanity to care specifically about other driders, but for the most part they're closer to beasts than sentients - any semblance of the previous self, including personality, thoughts, relationships, and emotions, is gone. Your body becomes stronger, but your self ceases to exist.

I'll grant that it's been a while since I read the earlier books, so it's possible I'm conflating with a less official source, but I'm reasonably confident I have that right. In one of the more recent books, Jarlaxle, as an act of mercy, kills a Bregan D'aerth drow of whom he is fairly fond after that drow is turned into a drider. Death was preferable to the torture of living as a drider. I'll also grant that none of the driders in those books ever had any spellcasting capabilities, and it's possible Wizards of the Coast just decided to take them in a different direction.


Lolth doesn't consider her own drider form to be a blessing. She loathes it, because it's an eternal reminder that Correllon Larethian cast her down, turned her into a spider, and then banished her to the Abyss. It took her centuries to regain enough power that she could manifest an elven head on her spider body again. Then a few more centuries until she regained enough power for the upper torso of a normal female drow.
And again several centuries until she was fully drow-bodied again.

Neat little detail. I'm not super well-versed in the general lore, so I hadn't seen this bit before. Thanks for sharing it.

[Elricaltovilla]

I toyed with making the drider transformation not one where the subject is partially turned into a spider, but rather one where they are being slowly consumed from the feet up by a demonic spider thing while its venom courses through their veins and the demonic tentacles inside its mouth puppet the "upper body" of the drider from the inside. So much more painful and horrifying as your free will is taken away from you by an evil demon spider that serves the goddess you failed to torture you until you're fully consumed.

I never decided on what should happen if the spider part did successfully fully consume their drow part though.

[Nifft]

I toyed with making the drider transformation not one where the subject is partially turned into a spider, but rather one where they are being slowly consumed from the feet up by a demonic spider thing while its venom courses through their veins and the demonic tentacles inside its mouth puppet the "upper body" of the drider from the inside. So much more painful and horrifying as your free will is taken away from you by an evil demon spider that serves the goddess you failed to torture you until you're fully consumed. That's awesome.


I never decided on what should happen if the spider part did successfully fully consume their drow part though. Get in line for the next failure?

Rejoin the essence of the spider goddess?

Transform into a Bebilith and prowl the Abyss for prey?

[DataNinja]

IIRC, 4e went wholly in that direction. Being a drider is a power increase and it makes one look more like their god, so it's seen as a sign of great favor from Lolth.

Yeah. I seem to recall that, too. When you took the test of the drider, the strong survived. The weak... well, we don't talk about them. :smallamused:
(I think most of them ended up as Drageloths, which were, again, ironically higher leveled.)

It was also one of the few ways that male drow could get some measure of influence in drow society. (Still gotta bow to the priestesses, but at least you're not near the bottom rung of the ladder.)

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Lolth doesn't consider her own drider form to be a blessing. She loathes it, because it's an eternal reminder that Correllon Larethian cast her down, turned her into a spider, and then banished her to the Abyss. It took her centuries to regain enough power that she could manifest an elven head on her spider body again. Then a few more centuries until she regained enough power for the upper torso of a normal female drow.
And again several centuries until she was fully drow-bodied again.

Yep, always bear in mind Lolth's massive self-loathing.

Also, Driders are incapable of breeding. In a highly aristocratic society with eugenic tendencies, that is a big hit (especially considering most of those so transformed with have been members of the nobility).

[Psyren]

Yep, always bear in mind Lolth's massive self-loathing.

Also, Driders are incapable of breeding. In a highly aristocratic society with eugenic tendencies, that is a big hit (especially considering most of those so transformed with have been members of the nobility).

I'd imagine that's a feature, not a bug. The driders are the weaklings who couldn't hack it as real Drow, the very last thing Lolth wants is them breeding.

[Florian]

Except I fail to see the logic in this - driders are physically and mentally stronger(all ability scores are at least +4) and have innate spellcasting (of any type they choose!)

Blame 3E.

In older editions, Driders didn't advance at all and were stuck at the level they were "tested" by Lolth, so at 4th. That´s game over in power-hungry drow society.

[Vizzerdrix]

would you want to live your life as a monstrous half animal?

In a world full of undead, magic, monsters, and murder hobos? Yes. I quite think a quick power boost would be quite handy for keeping one self alive. Commoner 1/ werebear(or any other good to neutral animal. A were doggy would be mans ultimate bff) goes a very, very long way towards making sure things like bandits and goblins are only a pest level threat to a community as opposed to a grave situation, requiring handing over all their hard earned wealth to some adventurers who would rather rob you themselves.