Which classes are harmed least/benefit most from Vow of Poverty?

[Endarire]

Mechanically, of course.

I'm aware that Vow of Poverty is generally a two feat tax to make the game worse for a character in the long term. Eventually, VoP's static benefits (including bonus Exalted feats) are weaker than items you're expected to get according to wealth by level. Let's move past that and assume, hypothetically, that we're talking of people who greatly want to or need to take VoP.

I was considering that Druids probably have the best time. They're already fairly self-sufficient with Wild Shape, an animal companion, and full Druidic casting. Their chassis (d8, Fort & Will as good saves, 4+INT modifier skill points per level with a spiffy list) makes them the most iconic case of minimal necessary itemization. In short, they are self-sufficient.

Psions and Ardents (and maybe also Clerics and Sorcerers) are up there, but probably nowhere close to the Druid.

In the worst shape are likely Artificers, Wizards, and Archivists for their item dependency (spellbooks, prayerbooks, and the notion of being a magic item craftin' class).

EDIT: Easy Bake Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325933-Easy-Bake-Wizard-Handbook) would likely be less harmed by VoP, but still hampered due to the lack of a physical spellbook or similar.

[Khedrac]

Incarnum-using classes generally fair better than druids.
A wild-shape ranger would also be reasonably OK.

[gorfnab]

VoP Wizards can be an option with the right ACFs (see Easy Bake Wizard Handbook in my signature).

[noob]

About your handbook collegiate wizard works with prcs that adds spell known "as if you gained a level in a previous spellcasting class" since it gives 4 spells when you gain a wizard level the prc that adds spell known "as if you gained a level in a previous spellcasting class" adds 4 spells since you gain spells as if you gained a level in wizard.
But the casting improving prcs does not all have that text.
Master specialist however have.
"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in the wizard class"
Which means that if you get 4 spells per level in wizard through collegiate wizard then you get 4 spells per level in master specialist.

[flare'90]

Casters in general are a little inconvenienced by the fact that they can't provide for expensive material components. You can burn xp instead, but it's better to just skip those spells.
Also, by RAW VoP allows you to won a spell component pouch but not a holy symbol, which is weird. You can take Wordly Focus to fix this problem, but it's another feat burned.
Binders might work decently under VoP, vestiges can supply for abilities that noramlly require spells/items.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gorfnab
VoP Wizards can be an option with the right ACFs (see Easy Bake Wizard Handbook in my signature).

Can a VoP Easy-Bake wizard be replicated in Pathfinder?

[EldritchWeaver]

Can a VoP Easy-Bake wizard be replicated in Pathfinder?

The automatic bonus progression have an option for zero items, so that would cover VoP at least.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver
The automatic bonus progression have an option for zero items, so that would cover VoP at least.

Thanks, although I was really wondering about the Easy-Bake side of things. :smallsmile:

Are there feats and/or archetypes in Pathfinder that would emulate the ACFs for an Easy-Bake wizard?

[EldritchWeaver]

Thanks, although I was really wondering about the Easy-Bake side of things. :smallsmile:

Are there feats and/or archetypes in Pathfinder that would emulate the ACFs for an Easy-Bake wizard?

Skimming the Easy Bake, it seems that goal is to cast spells without requiring spellbooks and having at-will powers? The only way I know of to do that is using 3PP Spheres of Power.

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, an obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22506319&postcount=31) to a wealth comparison I made a little over a month ago between WBL and VoP. Without calculating the possible gp value of the bonus feats and a weapon counting as good for DR purposes, VoP ends up giving more raw value across the board, even when cutting a number of corners to try and find a cheaper alternative. Here's my very basic "pros and cons" list for VoP as I see it.

Pros:
More RAW value than WBL from level 1 to 20
Grants bonus feats beyond the above wealth comparison
Grants access to some abilities that could not normally be purchased pre-epic
Gets even better in low-wealth games

Cons:
Multiple "purchases" towards the same stat (eg. Armor Class) are not spent optimally
No flexibility: all characters gain all "purchases" regardless of how valuable those "purchases" are to them personally
"Purchases" do not include key abilities most characters acquire via items (eg. Flight, special weapon/armor properties, etc)
Gets even worse in high-wealth or epic games


Unsurprisingly, the classes that suffer the least from taking Vow Of Poverty are the ones that were already going to be competent enough clad in nothing but their birthday suit: a clerics who can find a way around a need for a holy symbol, wizards who can find a way around a need for a spellbook (such as Eidetic Wizards, who learns spells by puffing the magic dragon), druids just in general...heck, even limited to "no items but a few simple non-magic things you can carry" artificers are still pretty awesome if they're abusing their infusions well enough (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice), particularly if they take Leadership for a Warforged Companion they can throw stuff onto. Sorcerers, Favored Souls, and Bards will be faring about as well as they usually do, due to not being super-item-dependent as well, and will have a very slight leg up on the aforementioned T1 classes in that, because they're Cha-based, they have a bit more access to neat Exalted Feats. They're still worse because when everything else is equal, the T2s and T3s are still worse than the T1s, but they'll still be largely competent.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Incarnum-using classes generally fair better than druids.
Uh, no. Druids have power to spare, meldshapers generally do not. Druids can duplicate most/all Required Effects with either spells or Wild Shape, meldshapers cannot.


Once Vow of Poverty is required, nothing is better than a druid (probably). Second are the spellcasters that can provide their own Required Effects with power to spare: clerics, wizards, psions, that lot. After that, it's a steady road down past classes that can cover only some RE, or don't have power to spare, or a little bit of both, until you hit the likes of fighter and truenamer, who are just useless without magic items.

[Akal Saris]

For one of the rarer classes in the game, Dragonfire adept, perhaps? Their main attack isn't keyed to anything besides Con (which can get a +8 enhancement bonus from VoP), and they can fill in the missing mobility and utility abilities with their invocations. If you take the dragonborn template, you can also get a number of benefits that are great for a dragonfire adept and supplement the VoP well, whether it's improved senses, flying, or a breath weapon that enables you to take metabreath feats.

[Hecuba]

Meldshapers take the smallest hit, since they are already prohibited from using several magic item slots to bind their soulmelds.

Next up comes Druids, Sorcerers, and the other casters/psionic/non-martial classes that do not have to redirect additonal build resources to remain effective.

After that comes Clerics and other primary casters who need a divine focus of actual monetary cost. They can take worldly focus, but they are eating a feat to do so.

Next comes Wizards, Artificers, and Archivists (presuming you let Archivists use spellvook work around): even after you work around core issues, you take a big hit here. No scrolls for spells known. No crafting for the Artificers.

Finally comes the unwashed masses of classes doing actual martial combat. We could break this down and say that a paladin is less screwed than a fighter. But really, they are all up a creek.

[Jormengand]

Some martial classes are screwed surprisingly little - a rogue doesn't care a great deal whether they're doing 11d6+5 points of damage with a short sword +5 or 11d6+5 with a nonmagical club, after all - and if you're proficient in heavy armour, you can trade it all away for a dragonscale husk, which isn't a "Material possession" and therefore doesn't break your vow.

I suppose I should note that this also means that shadowsmith makes a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192864&postcount=76) really good class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22234777&postcount=102) for Vow of Poverty. Soulknife would, I suppose, if it weren't terrible in the first instance.

Incidentally, because you can buy any number of simple weapons, you can, quite apart from using said weapons as tools, get a decent throwing build without having to pay through the nose for each of the +1 javelins you're throwing at level 1, because the Vow makes them +1 automatically. And because you're not spending it on anything else, you're not going to run out of money for all of the nonmagical javelins you're buying.

[Nifft]

Meldshapers take the smallest hit, since they are already prohibited from using several magic item slots to bind their soulmelds. A class like Incarnate which is based around UMD should not be categorized as "smallest hit".


Next up comes Druids, Sorcerers, and the other casters/psionic/non-martial classes that do not have to redirect additonal build resources to remain effective. Sorcerers take a much bigger hit than Druids, since Sorcerers rely on items to expand their spell lists. These two classes are not equally affected.


After that comes Clerics and other primary casters who need a divine focus of actual monetary cost. They can take worldly focus, but they are eating a feat to do so. Losing one feat is not nearly as significant an expenditure as a Sorcerer losing access to Runestaves and Drake Helms.


Next comes Wizards, Artificers, and Archivists (presuming you let Archivists use spellvook work around): even after you work around core issues, you take a big hit here. No scrolls for spells known. No crafting for the Artificers. Easy-Bake Wizards are not taking a big hit, especially not with Greyhawk Method and Colligate Wizard. They can't PrC out comfortably, but they're just fine as full-class Wizards.

Artificers can aid other casters in crafting items. They'd own nothing, and expend their bonus craft XP for the sake of their friend. Item crafting done, party enhanced, vow upheld.

Archivist is probably screwed, yeah.

[noob]

In fact they can prc in master specialist since that prc gives bonus spell known as if you gained a level in wizard.
And the collegiate wizard feat gives 4 spells when you gain a level in wizard.
So they gain 4 spells since they gain spells known as if they gained a level in wizard.
However that is not the case of all the casting prcs.

[Domar]

You'll also want abilities that help you keep the vow. Picking up one to many slices of bread, climbing a ladder or opening a door all lose you the vow.

[gorfnab]

About your handbook collegiate wizard works with prcs that adds spell known "as if you gained a level in a previous spellcasting class" since it gives 4 spells when you gain a wizard level the prc that adds spell known "as if you gained a level in a previous spellcasting class" adds 4 spells since you gain spells as if you gained a level in wizard.
But the casting improving prcs does not all have that text.
Master specialist however have.
"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in the wizard class"
Which means that if you get 4 spells per level in wizard through collegiate wizard then you get 4 spells per level in master specialist.
Unfortunately, with the Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (RotW) and the Domain Wizard ACF (UA) you cannot be a specialist wizard, which means the Master Specialist prestige class would not be an option for the standard Easy Bake setup.

[Vaern]

Spellcasters benefit greatly from access to magic items - wizards in particular may keep a handful of scrolls so they have access to certain utility spells they may have neglected to prepare, for example, and wands found as loot are generally handed over to a caster who can use it without a UMD check. They may not necessary need such things, but they offer a lot of potential for versatility which you give up with Vow of Poverty.

Monks' class features prevent them from wearing armor and encourage them to fight unarmed. They can't benefit from armor enhancements and enchanting their fists is a pain, which VoP helps greatly with.
And besides all this, they're practically the bottom of the barrel on their own. They have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. So as far as who benefits the most and loses the least, I think monks top the list.

[Luccan]

Spellcasters benefit greatly from access to magic items - wizards in particular may keep a handful of scrolls so they have access to certain utility spells they may have neglected to prepare, for example, and wands found as loot are generally handed over to a caster who can use it without a UMD check. They may not necessary need such things, but they offer a lot of potential for versatility which you give up with Vow of Poverty.

Monks' class features prevent them from wearing armor and encourage them to fight unarmed. They can't benefit from armor enhancements and enchanting their fists is a pain, which VoP helps greatly with.
And besides all this, they're practically the bottom of the barrel on their own. They have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. So as far as who benefits the most and loses the least, I think monks top the list.

That's the problem though: If you're a monk, you need items to contribute meaningfully. VoP doesn't make up for that nearly enough.

[Nifft]

Spellcasters benefit greatly from access to magic items - wizards in particular may keep a handful of scrolls so they have access to certain utility spells they may have neglected to prepare, for example, and wands found as loot are generally handed over to a caster who can use it without a UMD check. They may not necessary need such things, but they offer a lot of potential for versatility which you give up with Vow of Poverty.

Monks' class features prevent them from wearing armor and encourage them to fight unarmed. They can't benefit from armor enhancements and enchanting their fists is a pain, which VoP helps greatly with.
And besides all this, they're practically the bottom of the barrel on their own. They have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. So as far as who benefits the most and loses the least, I think monks top the list.

Spellcasters benefit from practically everything in 3.5e -- new magic items, expanded monster lists, expanded spell lists, etc.

But this question isn't about who gives up the most benefits. Casters give up the most benefits, because casters have the most benefits, because casters have the most everything.

This question is: after giving up all those benefits, who is most able to contribute to a D&D adventure? The answer is NOT the Monk. A monk without gear is so far below casters with gear, it's not even funny.

On the other side, a caster without gear is still a caster. They can contribute quite effectively. A VoP Druid is still an amazingly versatile and useful party member. A VoP Artificer can still craft magical wonders (but never own nor even touch them; and the GP portion for the items must come from a collaborator).



In more concrete terms:

- A monk needs gear to achieve basic character competency: flight, survival in hostile environments, condition immunity, action economy utilization, ranged attacks, see invisibility, DR penetration, etc. Without gear, a monk has no foundation.

- A caster can achieve basic character competency naked, with just spells & class features. Gear expands upon the caster's foundation.

[Hecuba]

A class like Incarnate which is based around UMD should not be categorized as "smallest hit".

Sorcerers take a much bigger hit than Druids, since Sorcerers rely on items to expand their spell lists. These two classes are not equally affected.

Losing one feat is not nearly as significant an expenditure as a Sorcerer losing access to Runestaves and Drake Helms.

Easy-Bake Wizards are not taking a big hit, especially not with Greyhawk Method and Colligate Wizard. They can't PrC out comfortably, but they're just fine as full-class Wizards.

Artificers can aid other casters in crafting items. They'd own nothing, and expend their bonus craft XP for the sake of their friend. Item crafting done, party enhanced, vow upheld.

Archivist is probably screwed, yeah.

If you view incarnate as a platform to use Mage's Specs to pimp UMD, then yes it's going to take a much bigger hit. But while that is certainty the most powerful way to play an incarnate, it is far from the only playable concept for them.

And literally every other mode of play for the Incarnates gets to offset some of the hit of VoP because they are not using some of those magic item slots anyways. Other meldshapers are in a similar boat. They certainly aren't the most powerful classes under VOP, but relative to where they are normally the loose less ground than other classes.

I also don't generally consider list expanding items baseline for sorcerers. If you do, the hit is obviously bigger. I agree that, in that context, the cleric and company make out much better.

Re the easy bake wizard: yeah, they're going to do fine. But thats largely because the starting point was Wizard. And in order to do fine, they'll have to tie up a significant chunk of their build options. And that still won't fully offset the loss being able to dip into WBL to expand their spellbook, which means they are still taking a hit on top of the generalized loss of items. While they can absorb that hit better than a sorcerers-in-the-context-of-runestaves, I would peg the hit as greater in absolute terms. Both are losing list expansion, but that was a far more limited options for the sorcerer off the bat because of the higher cost.


But this question isn't about who gives up the most benefits.
... That is literally exactly that I took the question to be about. The OP did not ask for a tier system modified by VOP: they asked who is "harmed least" by the feat.

[Nifft]

If you view incarnate as a platform to use Mage's Specs to pimp UMD, then yes it's going to take a much bigger hit. But while that is certainty the most powerful way to play an incarnate, it is far from the only playable concept for them.

And literally every other mode of play for the Incarnates gets to offset some of the hit of VoP because they are not using some of those magic item slots anyways. Other meldshapers are in a similar boat. They certainly aren't the most powerful classes under VOP, but relative to where they are normally the loose less ground than other classes. Maybe I'm missing something -- show me your VoP Incarnate build at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.

If you can hit all the critical baseline capabilities by the appropriate levels and still have something good to do in combat, then I'll be happy to learn that I'm wrong.


I also don't generally consider list expanding items baseline for sorcerers. If you do, the hit is obviously bigger. I agree that, in that context, the cleric and company make out much better. I consider the baseline for Sorcerers to be buying scrolls & wands for spells they want but not every day.


... That is literally exactly that I took the question to be about. The OP did not ask for a tier system modified by VOP: they asked who is "harmed least" by the feat.

https://i.imgur.com/B04XkcP.png


Wizard undergoes a larger absolute change, but the Wizard's playability stratum is unchanged. Being a VoP Easy Bake Wizard is less awesome, but still somewhat awesome.

Monk undergoes a smaller absolute change, but crosses the boundary between "playable but ouch man" and "ha ha ha no" -- and to me that's more harm.

Taking gear from a Monk is like taking the last $50 from a hungry family -- sure, taking $500 from a banker might be more absolute money, but it's far less harm.

[Vaern]

But this question isn't about who gives up the most benefits. Casters give up the most benefits, because casters have the most benefits, because casters have the most everything.


The question of the thread literally is about who is harmed the least and gains the most.
VoP gives bonuses to four ability scores. Something that all classes will undoubtedly benefit from, but as the monk suffers from dependency to several ability scores this will prove more useful to them than a class with only one key ability to worry about, followed by constitution. A MAD class has more to gain from this than a higher-tier class.
VoP grants bonuses to AC from three different sources. Again, something that undoubtedly everyone will appreciate, but casters already have spells for giving themselves extra armor, deflecting projectiles, displacing themselves for a miss chance, or making themselves invisible to outright avoid attacks. They don't benefit from this as much as a monk does. The same goes for damage reduction - casters can already do it, so they won't find it as necessary as martial classes.
Exalted feats? There aren't a lot of outstanding options for casters. That's not to say they can't make use of them, but they don't get the best options. There are some feats directed towards certain classes, but I feel like monks win over anyone else. Touch of Golden Ice ravages evil creatures touched by your base have with an effect that deals a good amount of dexterity damage. It's circumstantial, but then again a lot of the better exalted effects only work against evil creatures. Plus, as monks' unarmed strike is considered both natural and manufactured, you might argue that they could stack Sanctify Ki Strike and Sanctify Martial Strike.
Exalted Strike enhances weapons. You may argue that, by the rules of weapon-like spells, some offensive spells may benefit from this. But most of these offensive spells are tough attacks and thus don't need that attack roll bonus as much as a physical weapon anyway, and energy damage doesn't need modifiers to pierce damage reduction. Plus, the general consensus here is that casters are best utilized as a magical toolbox and for field control rather than as a blaster anyway. This perk goes best with martial classes who get the short end of the stick in terms of BAB - that is, rogues and monks.
Energy resistance is nice to have. Gaining it passively would be very convenient to casters, to be sure, but they'll already have access to resist energy, protection from energy, or both by the time this comes into play. At level 11, resist energy caps out at 30. When VoP's energy resistance is granted at level 13, it starts at 5. Like I said, nice to have passively, but if you only need resistance to one energy type at a given time you're better off with a spell.
Likewise, True Seeing and Freedom of Movement are both literally just spell effects that become accessible at lower levels to other classes.

Top tier classes are at the top because they already have everything. They don't need anything that VoP gives them for anything more than the sake of convenience.
Monks, on the other hand, are bad. You say they need gear to be viable, but the truth is that they're overall so bad - particularly with their lack of weapons and armor - that they're a pain to find equipment for to begin with. Giving them this feat, which gives a variety of features that honestly mesh really well with the concept of their class while at the same time taking away the stress of gearing the character, immediately makes it a more appealing option. Will it make the monk good? No. Vow of Poverty isn't going to make the monk shine. But more than anyone else, the monk can make the Vow of Poverty shine.

[Nifft]

The question of the thread literally is about who is harmed the least and gains the most.
VoP gives bonuses to four ability scores. Something that all classes will undoubtedly benefit from, but as the monk suffers from dependency to several ability scores this will prove more useful to them than a class with only one key ability to worry about, followed by constitution. A MAD class has more to gain from this than a higher-tier class.
VoP grants bonuses to AC from three different sources. Again, something that undoubtedly everyone will appreciate, but casters already have spells for giving themselves extra armor, deflecting projectiles, displacing themselves for a miss chance, or making themselves invisible to outright avoid attacks. They don't benefit from this as much as a monk does. The same goes for damage reduction - casters can already do it, so they won't find it as necessary as martial classes.
Exalted feats? There aren't a lot of outstanding options for casters. That's not to say they can't make use of them, but they don't get the best options. There are some feats directed towards certain classes, but I feel like monks win over anyone else. Touch of Golden Ice ravages evil creatures touched by your base have with an effect that deals a good amount of dexterity damage. It's circumstantial, but then again a lot of the better exalted effects only work against evil creatures. Plus, as monks' unarmed strike is considered both natural and manufactured, you might argue that they could stack Sanctify Ki Strike and Sanctify Martial Strike.
Exalted Strike enhances weapons. You may argue that, by the rules of weapon-like spells, some offensive spells may benefit from this. But most of these offensive spells are tough attacks and thus don't need that attack roll bonus as much as a physical weapon anyway, and energy damage doesn't need modifiers to pierce damage reduction. Plus, the general consensus here is that casters are best utilized as a magical toolbox and for field control rather than as a blaster anyway. This perk goes best with martial classes who get the short end of the stick in terms of BAB - that is, rogues and monks.
Energy resistance is nice to have. Gaining it passively would be very convenient to casters, to be sure, but they'll already have access to resist energy, protection from energy, or both by the time this comes into play. At level 11, resist energy caps out at 30. When VoP's energy resistance is granted at level 13, it starts at 5. Like I said, nice to have passively, but if you only need resistance to one energy type at a given time you're better off with a spell.
Likewise, True Seeing and Freedom of Movement are both literally just spell effects that become accessible at lower levels to other classes.

Top tier classes are at the top because they already have everything. They don't need anything that VoP gives them for anything more than the sake of convenience.
Monks, on the other hand, are bad. You say they need gear to be viable, but the truth is that they're overall so bad - particularly with their lack of weapons and armor - that they're a pain to find equipment for to begin with. Giving them this feat, which gives a variety of features that honestly mesh really well with the concept of their class while at the same time taking away the stress of gearing the character, immediately makes it a more appealing option. Will it make the monk good? No. Vow of Poverty isn't going to make the monk shine. But more than anyone else, the monk can make the Vow of Poverty shine.
Nah, Monk just sucks even worse when you take away their baseline competence items.


You know who attacks without weapons and enjoys both flat bonuses and penetrating DR? Druids.

You know who doesn't miss items because they just meld into their Wildshape anyway? Druids.

You know who likes getting higher stats applied to all their combat Wildshape forms? Druids.

You know who actually makes VoP look halfway decent? Certainly not Monks. It's Druids.

[Luccan]

I don't think the class that is harmed the least and the one that gains the most are the same. VoP is always worse than having items. So the class that is harmed the least is the one that needs items the least. So probably a Cleric or Druid. The one that benefits most will be one that in some way can't/won't use as many magic items. Which really only fits MoI classes, since they literally can't use some magic items if they want to use all their class abilities. Monk doesn't fit because they can get VoP benefits + more that they need from items, and with just VoP are still not very competent.

[Nifft]

MoI classes, since they literally can't use some magic items if they want to use all their class abilities.

MoI classes just need custom magic items which include the benefits of an Incarnum Focus (MIC) item for the relevant chakra.

They can use items if they're allowed to create custom items. The Incarnum Focus augmentation is even kinda decent so they even get something for their gold in addition to being allowed to use their class features.

[Luccan]

MoI classes just need custom magic items which include the benefits of an Incarnum Focus (MIC) item for the relevant chakra.

They can use items if they're allowed to create custom items. The Incarnum Focus augmentation is even kinda decent so they even get something for their gold in addition to being allowed to use their class features.

Fair, but they still have to get the right items. How often are you gonna hit Incarnum Focus on a loot table (not designed to benefit Incarnum users)? The majority of items in most game won't be as useful for them as for others, is my point, which is why they benefit more.

[Nifft]

Fair, but they still have to get the right items. How often are you gonna hit Incarnum Focus on a loot table (not designed to benefit Incarnum users)? The majority of items in most game won't be as useful for them as for others, is my point, which is why they benefit more.

Absolutely never, which is why I included "custom items" in both paragraphs. :biggrin:

[Luccan]

Absolutely never, which is why I included "custom items" in both paragraphs. :biggrin:

True. I'm... still not sure that would mean they wouldn't technically benefit most. I guess a caster would benefit from the stat boosts, but you said it yourself: They lose the most because they get the most.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Absolutely never, which is why I included "custom items" in both paragraphs. :biggrin:Which is easy enough to do once you've found an item that you want. Just have the incarnum focus ability tacked on later.

[Nifft]

True. I'm... still not sure that would mean they wouldn't technically benefit most. I guess a caster would benefit from the stat boosts, but you said it yourself: They lose the most because they get the most. Casters lose the most, yet are harmed the least.


Which is easy enough to do once you've found an item that you want. Just have the incarnum focus ability tacked on later. Yeah, absolutely.

But you need someone who can do that -- either an NPC contact, or a PC item crafter.

[Domar]

You only need Incarnum Focus for binds. You still have some slots till level 20.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You only need Incarnum Focus for binds. You still have some slots till level 20.And said slots will likely shift on a daily basis, meaning you will need them on all of your equipment anyway.

[Luccan]

Casters lose the most, yet are harmed the least.


So, would you say casters benefit most?

[Nifft]

And said slots will likely shift on a daily basis, meaning you will need them on all of your equipment anyway.

Yeah, you ideally want every chakra slot to have an Incarnum Focus item melded in.

I have seen people who have smaller "working sets" of soulmelds which they tended to always use, but that's not ideal play.


So, would you say casters benefit most?

No class in a standard-wealth campaign benefits from VoP.

That makes it difficult to pinpoint which class benefits most. :smallwink:

[Domar]

And said slots will likely shift on a daily basis, meaning you will need them on all of your equipment anyway.

Binds are level restricted, until 20 certain slots can't be used. Also rings and held items like weapons and shields.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Binds are level restricted, until 20 certain slots can't be used. Also rings and held items like weapons and shields.As with everything, there are caveats, of course. It's not like rings, shields, weapons, and general unslotted items actually have chakras to bind to (though you can bind certain hand-held items to your hands chakra even so).

But by level 20, the majority of your equipment should have incarnum focus abilities to keep you from being unable to use both your equipment or soulmelds, just in case.

[Soranar]

A specific build can benefit from it a lot if it’s especially difficult to buff it. Hengeyokai for example can’tuse Magic items and I’m not sure they have the wildling clasps exceptions that druids have.

so a psion or a wilder hengeyokai sparrow is pretty happy not to waste power knows by using VOP to fill in his gaps and the 25 Dex, fine size and the flight speed becomes insanely good

Combine all of that with the permanent buffs they can get through xp and they mostly benefit from vop

[Hecuba]

I consider the baseline for Sorcerers to be buying scrolls & wands for spells they want but not every day.
[...]
flight, survival in hostile environments, condition immunity, action economy utilization, ranged attacks, see invisibility, DR penetration, etc. Without gear, a monk has no foundation.


With the exception of flight and surviving in the environments you know you will play in, I don't consider these baseline unless I know the table is well-optimized. The same goes for more than incidental UMD usage. That likely makes our starting premises so different as to be incompatible.

I like a well optimized game when I can get them, and I try to encourage strategic play in my standing groups. But I don't generally find that to be be a common baseline in my area (though my perspective is likely skewed, since a good chunk of my play is facilitating pick-up games at my store - which generally means quick builds and low synergy).

That said, I do agree in broad terms with your assessment of what classes are and are not playable under VOP. That's just not how I understood the question.


Wizard undergoes a larger absolute change, but the Wizard's playability stratum is unchanged. Being a VoP Easy Bake Wizard is less awesome, but still somewhat awesome.

Monk undergoes a smaller absolute change, but crosses the boundary between "playable but ouch man" and "ha ha ha no" -- and to me that's more harm.

Taking gear from a Monk is like taking the last $50 from a hungry family -- sure, taking $500 from a banker might be more absolute money, but it's far less harm.

Edit: Removed this section - really, we're just agreeing here on basic principle while disagreeing on where we peg the marginal cost for specific classes.

Perhaps it would be useful to indicate how I am assessing the losses per class.


PHB
A druid loses:
Build enhancing gear, largely offset by spells and further offset by wildshape

A sorcerer loses:
Build enhancing gear, largely offset by spells
Relatively expensive list expansion from WBL from runestaves, ect.

A wizard loses:
Spellbook, mostly offset by ACFs and 1 or 2 feats (assuming Dragon material is allowed)
Cheap list expansion from WBL via scribing scrolls
Build enhancing gear, largely offset by spells assuming you solve the Spellbook

A cleric loses:
Spells requiring a divine focus, which requires a feat to offset
Build enhancing gear, largely offset by spells

A bard loses:
Build enhancing gear, partially offset by spells
Relatively expensive list expansion from WBL from runestaves, ect.

Rangers and paladins lose:
Build Facilitating gear, offset by spells/abilities only to a limited extent

Rogues & monks lose:
Build facilitating gear, minimally offset by unarmed/precision damage

Fighters & Barbarians lose:
Build facilitating gear

XPH
Psions & wilders lose:
Build enhancing gear, largely offset by powers

PWarrs lose:
Build facilitating gear, partially offset by powers

A Soulknife loses:
Build facilitating gear, offset to a limited degree by their mindblade & precision damage
Their dignity when they entered the class


I could continue and slog through CAdv next, but the truth is Ninja & Scouts fare largely the same as rogues. The spelltheif, as the bard. And so forth.

Under this framework, the questions become:
How valuable are the things you lose? Is the lost gear just pluses and saved per day or per encounter resources, or do you end up losing strategic and tactical options entirely?
How much of this loss can you offset? If you can't buy a flight item, can you just use a class ability (fly, airstep sandals) to fly or are you stuck on the ground.

This takes us to a generalized list in terms of who looses what:

Druids: Neither casting nor wildshape/AComp. is particularly hampered, and either one on its own would offset a notable chunk of this.
Full-List Full-Casters (Cleric, SShaman, Etc): may need to throw a feat after a focus or similar, but can otherwise simply offset the WBL loss from Spells per day.
Spells-know Full-Casters (FS, Sorc, Psion): Will loose list expansion options, forcing them to select their spells more carefully. Can still probably offset the vast majority of the loss if they deliberately choose their spells with that in mind.
Themed-List Full Casters, 3/4 casters, and similar (Bard, beguiler, healer): These will be able to offset some of the loss, but not necessarily in a reliable or timely fashion. For the fixed list casters other than the healer (who will instead be mooching off their companions' casting lists), you'll need to to choose those Advanced Learning slots very carefully.
1/2 casters, Initiators, & so forth (Rangers, Crusaders): Lose a lot in terms of martial combat, their main shtick. Abilities can let them offset some of the other utility loss, eventually.
Precision damage martial classes and other classes that can somehow offset the loss of a good weapon (Rogues & company, monks, soulknives): Precision damage means they lose somewhat less than others interacting with combat purely as martial, but they otherwise they are losing all the utility they normally get from magic items with no way to offset it.
Other purely martial classes (fighters, knights): They loose everything they get from gear and have no method of offsetting any of it.

Wizards and Archivists get their only little corner because of the spell/prayer book issue - the extent to which you can work around the issue depends on DM flexability. I would say they loose more than a sorcerer if the Dragon Material is allowed, both in absolute and relative terms (you have to throw more build resources at it, and the loss of nearly unlimited spells known seems to be to outweigh runestaves. But I will certainly peg the Wizard as still easier to play after the fact.

It's worth noting that, while this is similar to a list of how playable the classes are, there are subtle differences. A soulknife or monk loses less than a fighter does from taking VoW of Poverty, since their primary weapon still gets improved with level. But a fighter is still more playable.

Regarding the Incarnate, my premise is that they lose measurably less than everyone else because they can ordinarily use fewer magic items, and the melds can offset much like spells. This is, admittedly, based on a presumption that are not ordinarily pushing a UMD build for them or getting custom items to bypass than slot restrictions. You seem to be taking those things to happen as are baseline assumptions: working from , I would place them with the themed list and 3/4 casters instead - about as big a loss as for a bard (though the some builds, like the wildshape variant bard, for example, would come out much better).

[Nifft]

With the exception of flight and surviving in the environments you know you will play in, I don't consider these baseline unless I know the table is well-optimized. The same goes for more than incidental UMD usage. That likely makes our starting premises so different as to be incompatible. I've played Totemists and I've seen a gestalt Incarnate -- but I've never seen a non-UMD Incarnate in play.

If you could show me what you'd use in place of UMD, then I could perhaps move closer to your position?

I just lack a basis for comparison.



That said, I do agree in broad terms with your assessment of what classes are and are not playable under VOP. That's just not how I understood the question. Perhaps I'm using an unusual metric -- but to me, it seems a lot more informative.

Like, if a Wizard and a Monk were both hit by an effect, and the Wizard loses 3 active spells + 50 hit points, but the Wizard is alive and flying afterwards -- while the Monk only loses 25 hit points but that's enough to kill the Monk -- then I'd say the Monk was harmed more.

Not all losses are elastic, especially not for those at the bottom, who were only marginally surviving in the first place.



Perhaps it would be useful to indicate how I am assessing the losses per class.
(Spoliered for length)
Yeah, that's a good way to put it -- a distinction between build-enhancing vs. build-facilitating.

If your class gives you the ability to fly / teleport / deal ranged damage / inflict conditions / remove conditions / use alternate senses / fool conventional senses / zone control / handle social situations / provide healing / remote viewing / etc. -- then you've got the tools to play the game at mid to high levels.

If your class lacks those tools, then you'd usually rely on gear / race / allies to provide those capabilities.

To me, the most relevant measure of harm would be the proportion of capabilities lost when gear is prohibited.

[Domar]

To me, the most relevant measure of harm would be the proportion of capabilities lost when gear is prohibited.

Exactly, if a VoP Monk losses %50 capability and a VoP Wizard loses %5 capability, the Wizard has taken a vastly greater hit to absolute capability. But the Wizard can still do his job. The Monk has gone from minor distraction to unable to even engage the enemy.

[Hurnn]

Druid. Druid loses very little to almost nothing from VoP. There is the argument that Wilding clasps, and getting half undressed anytime you want to change form are viable ways around losing you magic items bonuses when wildshaped. It is kind of true, right up to the point it isn't. Need to change in a hurry whoops there goes that ring bonus, got a new toy, haven't got a wilding clasp on it yet bummer...

There is a second class I was thinking of that I'm a little surprised hasn't at least been mentioned is warlock. There is some overlap in the resistances which is sub optimal but hardly the end of the world. You would lose out on the deceive items bit, and probably the item creation. but again not earth shatteringly bad.

[weckar]

Our table found that VoP is ALMOST balanced if you allow ANY feats as the bonus feats rather than just exalted feats.
Feat-hungry builds actually find it worth considering at that point.

[Coretron03]

Our table found that VoP is ALMOST balanced if you allow ANY feats as the bonus feats rather than just exalted feats.
Feat-hungry builds actually find it worth considering at that point.

Factoumns could have a field day with that if they used font of inspiration. Nearly limitless actions :smallbiggrin:. Of course, you would still need to deal with Vop's other problems.

[Hecuba]

I've played Totemists and I've seen a gestalt Incarnate -- but I've never seen a non-UMD Incarnate in play.

If you could show me what you'd use in place of UMD, then I could perhaps move closer to your position?

I just lack a basis for comparison.

I'm in some thing of the opposite position- the only UM- focused incarnates I've seen in play were effectively pumping Mage's specs and playing artificer-light. Most of incarnate I see in play are instead running as a T4 skillmonkey that eithet spits at their enemy or focuses on the incarnate weapon stun in combat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Regarding the Incarnate, my premise is that they lose measurably less than everyone else because they can ordinarily use fewer magic items, and the melds can offset much like spells.
I agree with your entire post--a very good analysis, indeed--but I want to point out that the incarnate, although losing a smaller number of magic items, does not necessarily lose the smallest fraction of its capabilities, or the smallest absolute amount of power.

What percentage of an incarnate's abilities and power are granted by its magic items? A fair percentage, even ignoring UMD. The amount of power granted by WBL is massive--even if it's not put into equipment slots, aurum potestas est. Incarnates can use magic items like Wild Shaped druids: with a tax (incarnum focus vs. wildling clasp). It is possible to buy a very limited number of high-powered items, such as a cowl of warding, high inherent ability bonuses, and +1 soulfire heavy fortification bucklers, eliminating (most of) the opposition between meldshaping and magic item use. Finally, it is possible to spend money on things besides permanent magic items, such as flying ships. Not a typical indicator of character power, I admit, but I would rate it as a loss nonetheless (casters can, with great effort, build flying ships).

I think that druids generally outshine their WBL, so the loss of WBL is a smaller percentage of their overall expected power, and the part of their abilities that they lose is mostly luxuries--low-utility stuff on top of what is already a solid t2, even without items or VoP. Meldshapers sooner fall through tier 4 into uselessness, which I would rate as a greater loss of power than the t1-t2 drop, due to the diminishing marginal utility of each additional tier's worth of power.


To sum up, I repeat: "Druids have power to spare, meldshapers generally do not".

[weckar]

I think this is very much an issue that gets worse as Character Level gets higher. At lower levels it seems Meldshapers are hurt much less than Druids, while at higher levels (around the time shapers get their 3rd chakra bind, I feel) things flip.

[Domar]

Incarnates can also greatly benefit from grafts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Incarnates can also greatly benefit from grafts.Once installed, a graft is part of your body and should probably be exempt from the restrictions on VoP, as the vow doesn't require you to avoid using your own body. It's possible to enhance grafts as permanent magic items; would using such an enhanced graft break VoP?

[noob]

Your hands are worldly possessions.
Normally you should cut your arms and legs and give them to people who needs them.
Also you should remove your heart and your lungs as well as most other organs and give them too since you are hogging a whole lot of organs you need but there is probably people who needs them more than you.
Also it is 100% sure each part of your body have value if your gm wanted to stop people from getting body parts from a component pouch for stopping ice assassin abuse.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Your hands are worldly possessions.
Normally you should cut your arms and legs and give them to people who needs them.
Also you should remove your heart and your lungs as well as most other organs and give them too since you are hogging a whole lot of organs you need but there is probably people who needs them more than you.
Also it is 100% sure each part of your body have value if your gm wanted to stop people from getting body parts from a component pouch for stopping ice assassin abuse.So you must be incorporeal to take VoP without either breaking your vow or killing yourself.

[Nifft]

Your hands are worldly possessions.

That's only true if you are a chattel slave.

If you are not a thing that is owned, you are not a possession, and neither are your constituent parts.

Even then, if you are owned, your hands are not your own worldly possessions -- they belong to someone else. So, you can be a slave with Vow of Poverty -- but you should probably also take Vow of Obedience.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even then, if you are owned, your hands are not your own worldly possessions -- they belong to someone else. So, you can be a slave with Vow of Poverty -- but you should probably also take Vow of Obedience.That means you're holding onto (and using) something for someone else that isn't on the approved list. Don't you immediately break the Vow in that case?

[eggynack]

Exalted feats? There aren't a lot of outstanding options for casters. That's not to say they can't make use of them, but they don't get the best options. There are some feats directed towards certain classes, but I feel like monks win over anyone else. Touch of Golden Ice ravages evil creatures touched by your base have with an effect that deals a good amount of dexterity damage. It's circumstantial, but then again a lot of the better exalted effects only work against evil creatures. Plus, as monks' unarmed strike is considered both natural and manufactured, you might argue that they could stack Sanctify Ki Strike and Sanctify Martial Strike.
Druids get by far the best exalted feats. Exalted wild shape is arguably, on its own, better than the entire list of monk exalted feats put together, and VoP means that you pick it up a level before you'd be able to ordinarily. Exalted companion is quite good as well, enabling you to toss VoP on your animal companion. Words of creation takes some work to pick up, due to the prerequisites, but the casting mode on it is pretty strong. And, while all this face punching stuff is better on the face punching limited monk, it's pretty decent on the sometimes face punching druid. Oh, and animal friend is a feat that is best on a druid. May seem like reaching, but a VoP character is going to wind up with literally every exalted feat that's even marginally useful, so it's a relevant thing.

[Nifft]

That means you're holding onto (and using) something for someone else that isn't on the approved list. Don't you immediately break the Vow in that case?

Obviously not.

You've said some very clever things in the past, so I wonder if you might enjoy figuring this out.

Let me know if you need a spoiler. :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Obviously not.

You've said some very clever things in the past, so I wonder if you might enjoy figuring this out.

Let me know if you need a spoiler. :smallwink:Well, someone else could use it for you.

I think we're getting into some pretty kinky territory here, so I'll just leave this one alone. :smallredface:

[Nifft]

Well, someone else could use it for you.

I think we're getting into some pretty kinky territory here, so I'll just leave this one alone. :smallredface:

Ha ha ha, that's good. But nope.


Here's the trick:

Unarmed Strikes are a Simple weapon, which you're allowed to own per the vow.

Your whole body is used to make an "Unarmed Strike" Simple weapon attack.

Your whole body is allowed because it's a Simple weapon.


Therefore, you can even legally hold your own hand. You thought you were going kinky, but you're in the shallow end of the pool compared to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

therefore, you can even legally hold your own hand.Inconceivable!

[Hecuba]

I agree with your entire post--a very good analysis, indeed--but I want to point out that the incarnate, although losing a smaller number of magic items, does not necessarily lose the smallest fraction of its capabilities, or the smallest absolute amount of power.

What percentage of an incarnate's abilities and power are granted by its magic items? A fair percentage, even ignoring UMD. The amount of power granted by WBL is massive--even if it's not put into equipment slots, aurum potestas est. Incarnates can use magic items like Wild Shaped druids: with a tax (incarnum focus vs. wildling clasp). It is possible to buy a very limited number of high-powered items, such as a cowl of warding, high inherent ability bonuses, and +1 soulfire heavy fortification bucklers, eliminating (most of) the opposition between meldshaping and magic item use. Finally, it is possible to spend money on things besides permanent magic items, such as flying ships. Not a typical indicator of character power, I admit, but I would rate it as a loss nonetheless (casters can, with great effort, build flying ships).

I think that druids generally outshine their WBL, so the loss of WBL is a smaller percentage of their overall expected power, and the part of their abilities that they lose is mostly luxuries--low-utility stuff on top of what is already a solid t2, even without items or VoP. Meldshapers sooner fall through tier 4 into uselessness, which I would rate as a greater loss of power than the t1-t2 drop, due to the diminishing marginal utility of each additional tier's worth of power.


To sum up, I repeat: "Druids have power to spare, meldshapers generally do not".

That's a good point: you & Nifft have me convinced now.
I had not really considered the wilding clasp/IF item equivalency. While I rarely see wilding clasps outside optimized play, I don't consider them niche enough that I assume them unused. IF items should probably be treated equivelently. And with those items slots actually in play and being lost, the case for them being hurt less as a result evaporates.

[Nifft]

That's a good point: you & Nifft have me convinced now.
I had not really considered the wilding clasp/IF item equivalency. While I rarely see wilding clasps outside optimized play, I don't consider them niche enough that I assume them unused. IF items should probably be treated equivelently. And with those items slots actually in play and being lost, the case for them being hurt less as a result evaporates.

Yay, we helped!

As a data-point: in non-optimized play, I tend to see Wilding Clasps on a very small number of key "character-defining" items.

I'd expect to see Incarnum Focus melded into roughly the equivalent type of items -- like if you're in an oceanic campaign, you'd put an IF into whatever item gave you constant water breathing / swim / etc. benefits. If you're in a game where opponents fly a lot, you'd put an IF into your flight-granting item -- or you'd put it into your boots slot, so you could keep Airwalk Sandals active forever.


My Totemist experience was fairly low-level and low-wealth, so the item slots didn't bite me too much; and when I am the DM, I don't enforce the shared-slot soulmeld exclusion. IMHO it's a dumb nerf for classes which don't need to be nerfed, not when they're standing in the same room as a Cleric or Sorcerer.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. i on the other hand are still not certain. As i recall the bonuses that VoP offers are pretty decent. I do think there will be several breakpoints along the 1-20 progression where a VoP druid might be stronger than a non-VoP one.

I cant decide if its the case for psions though. Suspect the bonuses overlap a little to much. But it might be the case on some psionic gish builds.

[Hecuba]

Hmm.. i on the other hand are still not certain. As i recall the bonuses that VoP offers are pretty decent. I do think there will be several breakpoints along the 1-20 progression where a VoP druid might be stronger than a non-VoP one.

I cant decide if its the case for psions though. Suspect the bonuses overlap a little to much. But it might be the case on some psionic gish builds.

There is a narrow case to be made for Druid around 5 when wild shape comes online but wilding clasps are still cost prohibitive - if my memory of cost is correct, you won't be able to reasonably afford more than 1 decent clasped item at 5 (as the clasp itself comes in at almost half of WBL).

So if you start spending your entire day in wild shape right at 5, don't buy your items as barding to facilitate your new full-time job as a bear, and aren't planning to dump all your WBL into a single clasped item, there is a short window where it might catch up.

That's something of a niche concern, however: you can reasonably start adding a clasp per level minimum at 6, and your up to 3 uses/day of Wilshape by 7 which means you can more frequently stop being a bear if you need to be a weak furless ape to use some item or another.

[Nifft]

There is a narrow case to be made for Druid around 5 when wild shape comes online but wilding clasps are still cost prohibitive - if my memory of cost is correct, you won't be able to reasonably afford more than 1 decent clasped item at 5 (as the clasp itself comes in at almost half of WBL).

So if you start spending your entire day in wild shape right at 5, don't buy your items as barding to facilitate your new full-time job as a bear, and aren't planning to dump all your WBL into a single clasped item, there is a short window where it might catch up.

That's something of a niche concern, however: you can reasonably start adding a clasp per level minimum at 6, and your up to 3 uses/day of Wilshape by 7 which means you can more frequently stop being a bear if you need to be a weak furless ape to use some item or another.

Even in that case, at level 5 a wand of lesser vigor provides immense and very cheap out-of-combat healing.

The VoP Druid couldn't help heal the rest of the party between combats, or could only do so to the extent that she exhausted her daily spellcasting.

That's also the level where having a small bag with scrolls for utility spells becomes useful -- a VoP Druid can't do item-crafting alone, and can't read the scrolls even if someone else helped.

Having a non-VoP Cleric or a UMD-optimized Warlock or Rogue could partially mitigate both of the above, but the point stands -- out-of-combat utility items are awesome.

[eggynack]

Hmm.. i on the other hand are still not certain. As i recall the bonuses that VoP offers are pretty decent. I do think there will be several breakpoints along the 1-20 progression where a VoP druid might be stronger than a non-VoP one.

It's inevitably somewhat dependent on item optimization. Lesser rods of extend spell are always going to represent a serious advantage over VoP, and the ring of the beast does too. One point that's interesting is 8th level, because you get to pick up exalted wild shape a level early. It's a pretty good feat, and represents a serious qualitative advantage over the standard druid that at that point typically lacks form adding feats. Of course, the standard druid gets the advantage back a single level later, but it's a neat breakpoint.

[Hecuba]

Even in that case, at level 5 a wand of lesser vigor provides immense and very cheap out-of-combat healing.

The VoP Druid couldn't help heal the rest of the party between combats, or could only do so to the extent that she exhausted her daily spellcasting.

That's also the level where having a small bag with scrolls for utility spells becomes useful -- a VoP Druid can't do item-crafting alone, and can't read the scrolls even if someone else helped.

While I agreed that that's a good option in general, part of the reason why level 5 is on odd spot is that you only get one use of wild shape per day baseline at that level. If you are leaving wild shape between encounters to use a wand or scroll, you're not going back in until tomorrow. So if your expectation is "all bear, all the time" as soon as you get wildshape (which is a perfectly respectable way to play a Druid), you're not leaving form between encounters until at least level 6.

[Nifft]

While I agreed that that's a good option in general, part of the reason why level 5 is on odd spot is that you only get one use of wild shape per day baseline at that level. If you are leaving wild shape between encounters to use a wand or scroll, you're not going back in until tomorrow. So if your expectation is "all bear, all the time" as soon as you get wildshape (which is a perfectly respectable way to play a Druid), you're not leaving form between encounters until at least level 6.

That's true.

However, we don't have Natural Spell yet, so I wouldn't plan to be all-bear-all-the-time at level 5 -- those 3rd level spells are good, and you can't cast them while you're a bear.

So, in both cases your Wild Shape is likely to be limited to one or two encounters, and not an all-day thing.

Thus, you're right -- using items does mean leaving wild shape -- but there's not really an alternative to leaving Wild Shape, since your spells are also really good.

[Endarire]

I posted the previous message in the wrong place. Ignore.